"Bait Car" - Anyone Else Have A Problem With This?

[Steely_Dan]

I can't put my finger on it...just why I find this kind of enforcement distasteful. Can anyone help me here. I mean, people that steal cars should be put in jail...but a "bait car?"

-Paige

[AlabamaLibrul]

1. Yes, and I'm inclined to believe that it's BS just like most of "Tru"TV's shows.

Speeders always seemed incredibly fake, and I can state for sure that Operation Repo and All Worked Up crap is, they use the same shitty actors.

[Steely_Dan]

2. You Know...You Are Correct.

I have watched Repo as I was channel surfing and they have characters that can't really exist in real life.

You know...this is actually pretty disturbing if you think about it. In the past, it was just professional wrestling that was obviously fake...but people still believed it was real. There must be people out there that actually think that these shows are for real. They are presented as such. It is the continuing dumbing down of our society.

-P

[smalll]

3. I thought that was some kind of porn thing. /nt

[AnArmyVeteran]

4. Why stop there? Why not bait rape, or bait murder...

But better still, bait 'Wall Street Thug'. We could have hidden cameras in 'bait' offices recording how they are screwing us. And then they can be raided and given 20 years in prison. I'd love to see that show! It would be easy marks for the sting. I'm sure just hanging out in area Wall Street bars and talking with the 'financial wizard' next to you could be a great way to meet one of them and then get him to commit fraud.

[iamtechus]

15. Great idea!

You could put a couch with a nekid woman on it in a bad neighborhood and when drunks come along ...

[AnArmyVeteran]

22. Candid Camera started sting operations in the 50s

They tied a dollar bill to a string and laid it on a city sidewalk. When people leaned to pick it up the dollar moved inches away from them. Of course, that program did it for fun, but police who do it can arrest you if you are caught in one of their stings. And they aren't very difference than Candid Camera stunts.

I bet we could go to Wall Street and put a Rolex watch on a sidewalk and when the first crook, er, Wall Street executive' reached down to take it, he could be arrested on the spot and given 10 years for felony theft.

Why do all the sting operations only attack the very poor? Why not the very rich? I could think of hundreds of stings for the rich.

[pnwmom]

33. A bait car isn't putting any potential victim at risk.

Except for someone who indulges in impulse grand-theft.

[FormerDittoHead]

108. They already did that. Girl raped after school officials used her as bait...

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/10211/1076338-55.stm

[AnArmyVeteran]

122. Good grief, I was just kidding. Thanks for the link.

[krispos42]

5. Nope.

At least, not the concept of police using a bait car to capture car thieves. I believe the Escalade is the most stolen model this year.

As long as there is no entrapment and the SUV's factory locks and alarm are working correctly, then I say "go for it". Beats the hell out of a high-speed chase that ends with a wreck.

Self-locking doors, GPS, and engine cut-off are a lot easier and safer to use to capture the felons. And in-car cameras and mics are ironclad evidence.

[Vinnie From Indy]

6. Bullshit!

The shows I have seen with bait cars are about assholes that see a car that is easily stolen so they steal the car. I have no sympathy for these guys. They got caught.

[Behind the Aegis]

7. What's the problem?

[Xenotime]

37. It's entrapment is what it is.

[Statistical]

44. Please learn what entrapment is and isn't.

Placing a car under surveillance and waiting for someone to commit a felony isn't entrapment.

Now a Police Officer (under cover) telling a criminal it would be a good idea to steal that car WOULD be entrapment.

[backscatter712]

59. That's essentially it. No entrapment with a bait car.

If there were undercover cops egging people on, trying to convince them to steal it, yes, that would be entrapment.

But the bait car ploy only has the police parking a normal looking car in an area where a lot of car theft occurs, then arresting anyone who tries to steal it.

Granted, there are sometimes other ploys that push the limits, like setting up a bait car with several bags of expensive items in the back seat, unlocked, with the keys in the ignition.

[uncommon]

89. Ding ding ding - you win!

[pipi_k]

67. That's about on a par with claiming that

making birth control available will "entrap" or "entice" teenagers into having sex.

I don't know about anyone else, but I've seen LOTS of cars parked in front of stores or whatever...unlocked...engine running...and I've never been tempted into stealing one.

Mainly because I wouldn't steal a car in the first place.

[cleanhippie]

105. In what way?

Please explain.

[Confusious]

8. I have no problem with it. Nt

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

9. Well, it's not like a car asks random people to steal it. It just stays there.

Prostitution stings are much more questionable.

[asdjrocky]

10. I think there are enough crimes to solve-

Without cops making up new ones. I see it as total entrapment.

[AnArmyVeteran]

23. But this is preemptive crime busting. Catching people in controlled stings

And the cops can control the entire sting making it safe and non-threatening to the general public. I'd rather catch a person like that, than after they killed or harmed a normal person.

[asdjrocky]

26. Fine with me, I'll never agree with it.

Seems to me a more safe and tidy way to feed the Prison Industrial Complex, but to each his own.

[TheMadMonk]

31. Well yes. You could say that. And even do it with a straight face.

Dickhead taking bait car is obviously out to nick a motor. And under normal circumstances his chances of getting caught are low.

Bait car that locks the crim in results in a far far higher chance of his getting caught, sentenced AND most importantly convicted.

Result. More bodies for the cinderblock colleges. Bodies mind you that belong there, and are not already there, only because they haven't been caught. Excluding the odd first timer of course.

However, there is no entrapment here. Well not until after the locks snap down anyways. No invitation whatsoever is issued to commit the crime, just lots of preparation made for the time when the crime is committed.


You may as well claim that allowing an attempt to commit a crime (robbery commonly) after a tip off, is also entrapment.

[madmom]

64. As well as security cameras...n/t

[LiberalFighter]

38. But they are trying to be creative.

[Statistical]

46. Cops aren't making up a "new crime".

Stealing has been a crime for I don't know a couple thousands years or so.

Someone committing a felony isn't entrapment even if they are foolish enough to pick as their target a vehicle under surveilance.
It doesn't have to be a fair "game".

Entrapment would be an undercover cop telling a criminal he should steal a car or suggesting this particular vehicle to a car thief.

[truebrit71]

61. Yes they are. If that car wasn't there, unlocked beggin to be pinched, who's to say that..

..whoever takes the bait wouldn't have nicked it if it was locked and alarmed? If the piggies found an unlocked car by chance, and then sat in wait to see if it got pinched THAT would be a) not entrapment and b) a crime that was going to happen regardless..

I don't think it is entrapment per se, but I do think it is 'enticment' if you will...

[Steely_Dan]

69. I think that is where I have a problem...

"Enticement" - Don't get me wrong, I want thieves put in jail. I am NOT excusing the actions of the thief on any level. However, when you park these cars in poor neighborhoods where people are desperate for money and see an opportunity to solve their financial problems (at least in their mind), it is in the least...enticement. If it weren't an "issue" that has at least some aspect of discomfort, there wouldn't be so many responses...even passionate responses. I would probably feel very differently if I had been a victim of car theft.

-P

[Statistical]

86. If you accidentally leave your own car unlocked are you 'enticing theives'?

If a women walks down a dark alley in a short skirt is she 'enticing' a rapist?

The law makes no distinction on how "easy" the crime is to commit. Unless you a criminal who takes advantages of an easy mark is somehow less criminal (and should be held to a lower standard) than one who goes after a hard target the argument doesn't hold water.

[Steely_Dan]

110. I Understand Your Point...

However, I don't think it's a all or nothing proposition. There are factors that make this issue debatable. Otherwise, we would all be in agreement and this post would have dropped off the board a long time ago. I just think it's something to consider.

[Statistical]

85. If it's not entrapment per se then it isn't entrapment.

"I don't think it is entrapment per se, but I do think it is 'enticment' if you will..."

By that logic if women didn't wear short skirts then rapists wouldn't be 'enticed'.

The person caught attempting to steal the car made a choice. They chose to break the law. It doesn't matter if they were 'enticed'. The ability for Police to use trickery or deception to catch criminals has been found Constitutional. Entrapment is not Constitutional.

Stealing unsecured personal property is still a crime as such the Police created a scenario where individual can choose to obey the law or not obey the law. How well the property is secured doesn't determine the level of criminality of the thief.

[truebrit71]

115. Sorry car theft of a vehicle left unlocked in a high crime area does not = a woman in a short skirt

..my point is this..if the car was locked, would they still have tried to steal it? Therein lies the grey area..

[Statistical]

118. It doesn't matter if they would have still tried to steal it.

Last time I looked stealing an unlocked running car is just as much of a crime as stealing a locked, alarmed, and starter disabled car.

People DO (stupidly IMHO) leave cars with keys inside and/or running. It isn't any less of a crime to steal a "easy to steal" car compared to a a difficult one.

[truebrit71]

131. Not arguing that point..just saying it doesn't equate to the "she had it coming cos she wore a mini-

..skirt" as some have been using in this thread..

I think it definitely bends the rules when it is made easier for the crim to actually commit their offense..Like if someone left a brick of C-notes on the pavement that said "property of someone other than you" how many folks would just leave the money there, and how many would pick it up and bugger off with it? In both cases it's theft, in both cases someone is taking something that is clearly not their's, but would they have done that, had the opportunity been so neatly presented to them..

[cleanhippie]

106. "begging to be pinched"? Thats the problem, IMO, we are looking at it wrong.

WHY should I have to lock my car? Really, why? If I don't lock it and someone steals it, is that MY fault? Stealing is stealing, period. And the bait car is NOT entrapment, it is hard evidence used to convict criminals.

[truebrit71]

114. Why? So someone doesn't nick it...do you lock your front door at night? Why?

No-one is talking about fault here, just whether this actually captures 'real' bad guys, as opposed to guys that are taking advantage of someone else's error (and yes I know it is still stealing, but I think it pushes the boundaries here - think about this way..a bait car is sort of like testing someone to see if they're as good when they think no-one is looking as when they know they're being observed..)

[Statistical]

120. actually captures 'real' bad guys

This is the disconnect.

If you take another persons car that is Grand Larceny. It doesn't matter how easy or hard it was to commit the crime. It is a crime and the person doing it should be punished.

Your entire argument seems to be based around the fact that
a) there exist people who wouldn't steal a "hard to steal car" but would steal an "easy to steal car"
b) it is "unfair" to catch the people in a.

My response would be EVEN IF TRUE. Who cares? It is still a felony. Until "stealing an easy to steal car" is not a crime those people should be caught and punished.

[truebrit71]

132. If they were 'real' bad guys..wouldn't they nick ANY car whether it was locked or not?

..that's my point..

[cleanhippie]

124. You seem to miss my point.

While in a practical sense, you may be right, in the ethical sense, WHY do I need to lock anything?

You state just whether this actually captures 'real' bad guys, as opposed to guys that are taking advantage of someone else's error, and that, IMO, IS the problem.

When is MY error ( I don't see it that way, but for arguments sake...) license for someone to STEAL what is not theirs? Stealing is stealing is stealing. Just because we might make it EASIER for them to steal in no way negates the 100% responsibility someone has NOT to take what is not theirs.

[truebrit71]

130. I'm not disagreeing with you, my point is, if the opportunity didn't present itself..

..would the crim have stolen the car anyway? That's where I have the problem (albeit a minor one) with bait cars..

[cleanhippie]

137. But the "bait" car is not a flashing neon sign that says "steal me!"

But what you are saying is that criminals that only act upon "opportunity" are different than criminals that act upon predetermination, and I say bullocks to that. Crime is crime is crime........

[truebrit71]

142. No, that is not what I am saying...and it's 'bollocks'..;-)

...i am saying that if the bait car wasn't there the crims that stole it wouldn't have stolen it unless it was unlocked..and in some neighbourhoods an unlocked car IS a neon flashing sign saying 'Nick me!'...

[cleanhippie]

149. But you are giving credence to what they MIGHT not have done.

The fact remains that they DID steal a car, whether it was easy or not, they DID do it. We have no way to know whether or not they would have stolen another car had the bait car not been available, but they did steal it. My thought process tells me that at best, these people would be considered "opportunity" criminals. Regardless of how one feels about that, they ARE criminals.

[blueamy66]

107. Let me hear your opinion once your car

is enticed to be stolen.

I've had 2 cars stolen and it sucks, big time.

Both were paid off, with money that I worked hard for...very hard for.

F*ck car thieves.

[truebrit71]

112. Been the victim of armed robbery twice and burglary once...Not a fan of crims at all...

...however I think that there is enough 'real' crime going on rather than 'creating' more...the whole bait concept presents an interesting dilema..does it enourage crime, or merely capture those that would have commit the crime anyway..?

[LanternWaste]

134. It seems to be no more nor no less "enticing"...

It seems to be no more nor no less "enticing" than any other car of the same value in a neighborhood.

[KharmaTrain]

51. If This Were Your Car...

I'm sure you'd think it was a big enough crime for the police to get involved. Car theft is far from a new crime and costs us millions in money wasted on insurance claims, litigation and the incovnenience it puts a person through to replace the car.

As others have said, the car doesn't go up to someone and ask to be stolen nor do the cops urge someone to do it...this is no different than a video survellience that we have in parking lots all over the place. If someone breaks into a car to steal it or the contents within it, that is a crime...pretty clear cut...cameras or no cameras.

[krispos42]

62. Grand theft auto, a felony.

The people stealing the bait cars are criminals, felons. And I'd be mightily surprised if less than 99% of them either had significant previous criminal records or were experienced car thieves with a network of other criminals that processed the stolen auto parts.

[Skittles]

11. they need to bait rich executives

insider stock tips, that kind of thing

[madmax]

12. That show annoys me also.

Seems to me to be a type of 'entrapment'. I don't like it. x(

[Recursion]

18. Entrapment would be an undercover cop saying, "Hey, help me jack this car"

If this teaches people not to touch stuff that isn't theirs, more power to the bait cars.

[pipi_k]

68. And even then...

a person always has the option to say, "WTF dude...are you crazy???" and then walk away.

Because he wouldn't commit the crime no matter what...

[Steely_Dan]

13. Yeah...I guess you all are right.

What was I thinking....*sigh*

[NYC_SKP]

14. "Bait Corrupt Politicians and Executives"

I could get behind that.

I guess somehow it's more seemly to entrap poverty stricken kids in blighted urban areas.

[raouldukelives]

17. Squishy old white men getting arrrested

Would make advertisers nervous.

[deaniac21]

83. It happens....

http://www.wkyc.com/news/regional/akron_article.aspx?storyid=60818

http://www.centerforinquiry.net/forums/viewthread/6091/

http://foia.fbi.gov/foiaindex/abscam.htm

[proteus_lives]

16. Not really. No one is forcing them to steal a car.

A crook is a crook.

[jmowreader]

19. Yes, I have a BIG problem with it

Not with the bait car type programs per se, but that fucking useless show on that fucking useless network.

Let's see...first, let's take a $65,000 vehicle (yes, that's what they cost) and park it in the highest-crime neighborhood in town, then let's leave the door hanging open and the keys in the ignition. And then let's get a crew from a TV network to follow the cops around with a full-size broadcast-grade video camera and boom microphones. About the only thing that's missing is a little trailer: "If you're going to steal that black Escalade, stop in here first for hair and makeup."

It's got to be less harmful than Judge Judy, though. I swear if I got hauled before that woman I'd be arraigned for conducting a wall-to-wall counseling session.

[Steely_Dan]

20. Gotta Agree n/t

[Mariana]

30. Y'know, where I live it's a crime to leave keys in the ignition.

Even if the car is on private property. Seriously.

They usually go around ticketing for this offense on very cold mornings when people like to start their cars early and go inside while the engines warm up and the windshields defrost. The car doesn't have to be running, though, just leaving the keys in is illegal.

[spinbaby]

34. Three weeks ago, I almost took someone else's car

I left the fitness center, hoped into my Prius, started the engine, and wondered who left the book in my car. Then I wondered who left the golf clubs in my car. Someone with an identical Prius had left it unlocked with the keyfob in the center console. Because the car has keyless entry and ignition, I might not even have noticed if not for the unusual items in the car.

[Statistical]

47. Ouch.

I would imagine the cops & DA never believing a story like that.

Very long time ago I had a cheap car "Mitsubishi mirage". Once I left the mall, saw my car, unlocked the door (this was before keyless entry) but the car wouldn't start. Then I looked around and realized it wasn't my car.

Either the vehicle was so cheap they re-used keys and I hit the one in a million or the vehicle was never locked I simply turned the key in the lock and thought I was unlocking "my" car.

The whole time I thought if the owner walks out I am never going to be able to explain this.

[Odin2005]

50. If that had that here in Fargo people would riot for that reason.

[ipaint]

36. Right wing authoritarians love that crap.

You'll never see a white collar criminal on any of those shows. Too busy stealing taxpayer wealth to pad people like judge judy's investment portfolios.

[Sheepshank]

103. OTOH

trying to figure the demographics of some that may watch this kind of show. Perhaps...and only perhpas, it may plant a tiny seed in the minds of some potential car theives, home invaders, etc, that they may just not get away with it as easily as they thought.

"...that fucking useless show on that fucking useless network. There are 200+ channels to watch, I chose not to watch this type of show....for those that chose to watch, well.....they've been warned

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

21. "Don't Help a Good Boy go Bad"

That was a slogan back in the day -- a 1960s public service campaign encouraging people to not leave their cars around unlocked with the key in the ignition

Guess that is out-moded thinking... but back then prisons were all non-profit

[rustydog]

24. I have a problem with the bait car show...

All you have to do is let the guy break in, and drive the car half a block then kill the engine. You have vehicle theft plain and simple. All this stuff on tv is for entertainment value only. it cheapens the concept and the viewer.

[Pushed To The Left]

25. I think it's actually a very clever idea!

I always enjoy watching the car thieves set up this way on the news. I have a very negative view of sting operations used for things like drugs and prostitution, but that is because I oppose vice laws. But things like the bait car and child predator (like To Catch a Predator) stings I'm all for.

Edit: I didn't realize this was an actual TV show! I was thinking of when these stings were shown on the local news.

[Travis_0004]

27. Nope

I come across running cars every once in a while, mostly in winter when somebody is running into the gas station to get something), and I've never once thought about stealing it. If you are going to steal a car, then you are going to jail.

[niyad]

28. have no idea what you are talking about

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

29. I have had THREE cars stolen over the years

The police can't watch every car on the road, but they can watch a car known to be desirable to thieves. It isn't entrapment to bust a guy in the process of jamming a screw driver into the ignition.

Of my cars stolen only one was recovered, found a thousand miles away at a rest stop in Oregon with a dead junkie behind the wheel and nobody arrested in any of them.

[MineralMan]

53. Buy an old Volvo station wagon.

Nobody EVER steals those.

[mwooldri]

65. Or a Toyota Prius.

If you definitely want your vehicle stolen, buy either a Caddilac Escalade, a havy duty big pickup truck (Ford F350, Dodge Ram with a nice big Hemi engine), or a Hummer H2.

Volvos, the Prius, and the BMW Mini all made the least stolen vehicles list.

Mark.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

109. The guy who stole my Tercel Wagon probably would

these were not luxury cars, just apparently easy to steal.

[Poll_Blind]

100. As the other responses said, if you've been sexually harassed it's your clothes.

So just by some different-looking clothes!

:sarcasm:

PB

[Donald Ian Rankin]

32. No problem with bait cars; some problems with law-enforcement TV.

I think that the police using bait cars to catch car theives is an excellent idea.

I think that making entertainment TV out of law enforcement is, at a minimum, in extremely poor taste, and arguably immoral because it risks distorting the incentives of the police. On the other hand, it's *far* less harmful than the process of electing judges and prosecutors is, rather than having them appointed by an official body and answerable to the law rather than the media.

[Mooker]

35. Having had a Jeep Cherokee stolen from in front of my house

I have a problem with car thieves, not bait cars.

[chrisa]

39. Normal people don't have any desire to steal a car.

I actually think using decoy cars is a good idea, because the only people caught in those 'bait cars' are car thieves. For example, putting a bait car in an area that there are alot of car thefts in. However, making a show out of it? Laughable.

I really hate cop reality shows. It's a corruption of policework, turning a serious job into entertainment. This includes 'Cops.' If the OP is talking about a reality show, then it's probably fake, with actors used. I suspect many of them are.

[Bonhomme Richard]

40. My problem is that it doesn't make sense........

other than lousy TV.
It would make sense if you had a bait car and followed it to where the thief was taking it. I would rather catch the chop shop guy or the guys shipping it overseas than some low life that steals cars. To set this thing up just to catch joyriders, which I had done as a stupid kid, is a waste of time and money.
Use it to catch the big guy if this were serious police work.

[RandomThoughts]

42. You have to enjoy the little things on the path also.

As far as catching the big guys, :shrug:

Just make sure that anything done is done to everyone, then the so called big guys get equal damage, and are so outnumbered, they go away. And everyone gets equal help also.

Basically it is completely untargeted justice. Blanketed and equal, like the removing of space time would be.

If you fight on someones turf, like money or ability to be heard or size of megaphone, or any of those other factors, then they can have an advantage. If you are removed from that in a way that all people have equal impact, then it is far more efficient way to solve problems in society.

The opposite of targeted justice is equal treatment. And to be just, since all people have some issues, you don't go after any individual, although defending oneself makes sense.

Just remove something like language, or remove something like ability to read or write, a couple examples of blanket justice. Although I believe in education, and that is not what I mean by removal of reading and writing.

[Uben]

41. No problems with it

I hate criminals. People who see a stolen car as a "few hundred easy bucks" need to be in prison. They are going to steal something or they would not be out looking to see whether or not a car is unlocked or the keys are in the ignition. I do have a problem with prostitution stings. Sex is a natural urge for humans, and prostitution allows those who have these uncontrollable urges to deal with them instead of looking to rape or sexually abuse. Car theft is not a natural urge.

If you want a good sting show, make it about Wall Street insiders. They have carrots dangled in front of them daily, and too many of them grab for the carrot at the expense of the public. Why are there not more stings of this nature? Or, how about a congressional sting? Politicians break the law by taking bribes and then voting in favor of those who pay them. That is just as much a crime as car theft, IMO, and they should be treated as much! Throw their asses in prison!

[LostinVA]

43. Rape has NOTHING to do with "uncontrollable sexual urges"

This whole statement of yours is at best uneducated, and at worst rather disturbing:

"Sex is a natural urge for humans, and prostitution allows those who have these uncontrollable urges to deal with them instead of looking to rape or sexually abuse."


:wtf:

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

73. The general mindset was already apparent with the first sentence of the post body. -nt

[Statistical]

45. You might want to educate yourself.

Rape has less to do with sex and more to do with violence.

[uncommon]

93. Rape is a crime of VIOLENCE.

It is about control and violence, not "urges" - and I'm not even going to touch the bit about prostitution.

[Odin2005]

48. I find this bait-and-entrapment shit disgusting. Fucking PIGS!

[Codeine]

97. I find car thieves disgusting.

Having your car stolen is some seriously miserable shit. For many of us a car the single most valuable object we own, and probably the one we can least cope with losing. Fuck assholes who think they get to swipe somebody's ride just because it has the keys in it.

[Rebubula]

133. LOLZ

Your opinion of police is well known around these parts.

I would have expected nothing less of a response from you.

[MadHound]

49. No, not really

It isn't entrapment, a thief can avoid prison by simply not breaking into the car. And no, they don't use flashy cars, they park Toyota's, Fords, etc.

[-..__...]

52. Yeah... it's a real shame this POS was taken off the streets...

This incident occurred in on June 6, 2004 when a well known 28-year-old car thief drove up to a parked bait truck in rural Langley in a stolen vehicle. (Between the years 1997 and 2004, he had been charged with 123 criminal offences.) He dumped the first stolen vehicle and then stole the bait truck. As he drove off in the bait truck, the suspect pulled out a loaded handgun and tried fourteen times to fire it indiscriminantly out the window. It appears that the gun was jammed and he was unable to fire it, but his body language indicates that he fully expected it to. The suspect then began casing cars and stopped numerous times to break into three vehicles in order to steal property from them. Soon a police officer who was dispatched to the location of the bait truck in the City of Abbostford arrived on scene while the suspect was out of the truck breaking into cars. As soon as the suspect saw the police car, he accellerated and reached speeds in excess of 140 Km/h while screaming "Oncoming" at the top of his lungs whenever he approached stop signs or red lights. The suspect struck three separate vehicles before dumping the bait truck, stealing a Honda Accord (that had a steering wheel lock on it) and escaping.

This suspect is believed to be one of the most prolific car thieves in the history of British Columbia. Information received points toward a minimum of three or four car thefts per day. This theft rate combined with a methamphetamine addiciton, his being armed with a handgun, and the dangerous manner that he would drive stolen vehicles, places him as a serious threat to the safety of both the public and police

More plus video at link...

http://www.baitcar.com/oncoming_most_chilling_bait_car_video_yet

[Statistical]

57. OH NO. Society "entrapped him" into stealing hundreds of cars.

[backscatter712]

60. How come that bait car didn't have a remote ignition kill switch?

As soon as the suspect saw the police car, he accellerated and reached speeds in excess of 140 Km/h while screaming "Oncoming" at the top of his lungs whenever he approached stop signs or red lights. The suspect struck three separate vehicles before dumping the bait truck, stealing a Honda Accord (that had a steering wheel lock on it) and escaping.

That douche could have been caught if the bait car had the remote ignition kill switch. Just like OnStar - the cops send a radio command, the engine dies, chase is over before other people's cars and other people get smashed up.

EDIT: Never mind, I read the article. Turns out the bait car DID have an ignition kill, but the cops didn't use it, afraid that losing the engine at high speeds would kill power steering and brakes and cause the driver to lose control, so instead they let this tweeker smash up three more cars on a high speed chase...

[Statistical]

92. Since cars are computer controled .... bait car should have a smart kill switch.

For example when activated the engine remains on but engine computer ignores gas pedal response and then slowly reduced throttle to lower vehicle velocity. Once velocity is under dropping the computer engages brakes (even if driver doesn't wish it) slowly until vehicle speed is below 20mph and then brakes are applied fully. Finally engine is killed.

Onstar has a system similar to that for use in reported car theft.

With computer controlled engines there is no need for a dangerous analog ON/OFF engine switch. Brakes & gasoline no longer physically control the engine instead they send signals to engine computer (similar to buttons on a keyboard). Simply ignore the operator (criminal) input and execute a pre-planned program to stop the vehicle.

[Capitalocracy]

54. Well, if recording an out-of-control on-duty cop is "wiretapping"...

then yeah, the bait car bugs me a bit

otherwise, we can talk... it's complicated I think

[backscatter712]

63. Depends on how the bait car is set up.

Like it has been said earlier in this thread, it all depends on whether the bait car scenario is considered entrapment - whether it entices a person to commit a crime that he normally wouldn't have.

If the bait car is parked like a normal car in a high crime area, then it's in the clear - your normal law-abiding citizen won't touch it. It's still in the clear if it has some expensive stuff in it visible through the windows, or even if it's left unlocked - your law-abiding citizen still won't touch it.

Some of the scenarios start pushing it - say the bait car is left unlocked, double-parked, with the keys in the ignition & the engine running, and two undercover cops are nearby pretending to have an argument with each other, so it looks like there's a marital spat, and the car's just waiting for someone to grab it... I personally wouldn't consider it entrapment, though that's pushing it.

Now if there was an undercover cop actively telling people "Hey, this car's unlocked, why don't you steal it!" - THAT'S entrapment.

[newportdadde]

55. This American Life had a story about a bait car once.

It was a really interesting story. Started off with the unknown car parked in front of the couples house. They waited a few days, called it in, a police officer actually came to their house and said nothing could be done. A few more days go by and they start working all kinds of scenarios through their minds about the car. Stuff like maybe someone was kidnapped and this was their car, things like that.

They decided to investigate the car, trying to get into the glove box looking for an owner and finally trying to pop the trunk. They ended up getting busted for theft.

The whole thing followed them around for years through their lawyer etc it was a mess.

[Stuckinthebush]

56. Nope. I'd like to see a sequel: Bait Derivatives

I bet we'd see a lot of illegal crap on Wall Street.

[X_Digger]

58. Nope, no problem.

Bad TV, but no problem with the concept.

[Renew Deal]

66. It's a clean way of busting car thieves.

I remember watching a cops episode where they would park a bait truck (18 wheeler) in an area known for break ins to these trucks. The busted several people. I think it was a good idea.

[lumberjack_jeff]

70. Depends.

If it's done in a way which intices someone who would otherwise never consider stealing a car to do it, then yes. Door-open-keys-in-the-ignition-Escalade? Sounds like you're more likely to catch stupid kids than professional car thieves.

[pipi_k]

71. Yeah, that's almost as disgusting as uncover cops pretending

to be young kids and "baiting" pervs in chat rooms, etc. Meeting up with them, and taking another perv...or possibly a murderer/rapist...off the streets.

Car thieves, perverts, murderers and rapists...they certainly deserve NOT to be caught any legal way possible. :eyes:


Oh, and not that I have a problem with pot smoking or anything...hell, I think it should be legal, but anyway...in some places it IS illegal. Anyone stupid enough to buy pot off a stranger on the street deserves to be caught.

[blindpig]

72. Entrapment is entrapment

Entrapment should not be allowed under any circumstances.

Our society would rather put people in jail than address the fundamental inequalities which are the cause of most property crime.

[Codeine]

75. This isn't even vaguely entrapment. nt

[Steely_Dan]

79. Exactly....

No one should excuse thiefs under any circumstances. However, perhaps some effort should be made towards addressing the socio-economic state of poor people where these cars are set up.

[slackmaster]

80. Fundamental inequalities - Like some people having cars and some not?

Property crime is caused by people taking stuff that doesn't belong to them.

[blindpig]

84. Like good paying jobs ...

Our society screams, "have it your way" and then denies people the capability to do so. Small wonder...

[Statistical]

101. So crime is ok as long as the victim has more "stuff" than the criminal? n/t

[Statistical]

94. Entrapment is not allowed but the example in the OP wasn't entrapment.

It isn't entrapment anymore than a drunk women walking home alone unarmed in a short skirt is entrapment for a rapist.

It isn't entrapment anymore than a cashier who turns his/her back on a customer with the cash register opened.

Both may increase the likelihood a crime will happen but aren't entrapment.
Law abiding people in both situations wouldn't attempt to take advantage of the situation to commit a felony.

[Rebubula]

135. I agree....

....entrapment IS entrapment.

However, this has FA to do with entrapment.

[slackmaster]

74. My only problem with it is that the thieves never get shot by the police

That would make the show much more interesting.

[Steely_Dan]

77. LOLOLOL!

Yeah...perhaps we can just impale them with a long spear and make it a part of the show. That would really boost ratings.

[slackmaster]

81. The reason I could never get interested in "Survivor" is that everyone survives

What good is that?

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

87. Nope. The previous post wasn't a funny over-the-top exaggeration.

Disguise FAIL.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

76. Wait, what? The car is left running, with the key on the ignition?

[Codeine]

78. Not usually.

They often leave the keys on the roof or in the ignition like an absent-minded driver might, but nrmally the car is not on.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

82. Leaving the keys makes it cross the line for me.

They're not after reducing crime or busting professional car thieves, they're after meat for their punishist urges. And they want it easy.

(Keys IN the car with doors locked make it somewhat OK.)

[pipi_k]

95. I actually saw a segment where someone saw an empty car...

doors unlocked...engine running...

and the person shut the car off, took the keys out of the ignition, and put them under the floor mat.


This is a person who would not even consider stealing a car. The police aren't going after people like this.

[ChoppinBroccoli]

116. Here's What You Fail To Recognize

The person who did that committed a crime. Yet YOU'RE not advocating that he be arrested. Why not?

Opening the car door of a vehicle that does not belong to you is a crime. Heck, just TRYING the door handle to see if it's locked is a crime. The second the guy opened the door and reached his hand inside, he committed the crime of breaking and entering. Wanna go further? When he took possession of the car keys, he committed a theft. Still not happy? When he hid them under the floor mat, he tampered with evidence and obstructed justice. And an overzealous police officer would have had EVERY RIGHT to arrest him, and he would have been guilty. Now you've got a guy who wanted nothing more than to do a good deed going to prison. Think I'm full of it? I see bullshit cases like these EVERY DAY. If the cops chose to charge him (and in a lot of places, they would), guess what they'd testify to in Court. That he snuck up to the car, was looking around nervously to make sure nobody was watching, snatched the keys out of the ignition, then, when he noticed he was being watched, dropped the keys to the floor and tried to escape. Want to tell me I'm fantasizing? I represent people framed up worse than that EVERY DAY.

Do you REALLY want to give the police that kind of power? I mean, it's obvious by your posts that you would happily give the police the power to read people's minds (I can paint you 100 different scenarios just like the one above where people "entering the car" had no intention to steal it--but apparently you and anyone who wears a badge are able to tell the "real" criminals from the "fake" ones), so I guess I can kind of see where your Pollyanna, "the nice policeman is your friend" mentality comes from. But the rest of us live in the real world. This country was founded on DISTRUST of the Police State. It's what the Constitution is based on. Unfortunately, people have gotten so used to their freedoms that they would willingly give them up. Well, not me.

[Statistical]

96. Why?

Is stealing a car with keys in ignition and engine running legal?

If you think it should be then I can understand the argument but the solution is to make that activity legally protected.
Personally I think leaving keys in the ignition and engine running to be foolish however I have seen people do it occasionally.

Strangely I never felt 'enticed' to steal the vehicle. Maybe that is because I respect the law.

[Codeine]

98. Exactly. Even more than respecting the law,

I respect the poor dude who would go through hell if I swiped his car. Fucking people over like that is bullshit.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

102. Yes, of course what I wrote means I think stealing cars should be legal and I don't respect the law.

:eyes:

[derby378]

88. Dallas has been using bait cars for some time now

I can't see it as entrapment. It's a car sitting in the parking lot, and you have no business breaking into it and driving it off. This isn't the White Bicycle Plan in Amsterdam, after all.

[pipi_k]

90. For anyone confused over what "entrapment" is....

ENTRAPMENT

A person is 'entrapped' when he is induced or persuaded by law enforcement officers or their agents to commit a crime that he had no previous intent to commit; and the law as a matter of policy forbids conviction in such a case.

However, there is no entrapment where a person is ready and willing to break the law and the Government agents merely provide what appears to be a favorable opportunity for the person to commit the crime. For example, it is not entrapment for a Government agent to pretend to be someone else and to offer, either directly or through an informer or other decoy, to engage in an unlawful transaction with the person. So, a person would not be a victim of entrapment if the person was ready, willing and able to commit the crime charged in the indictment whenever opportunity was afforded, and that Government officers or their agents did no more than offer an opportunity.

On the other hand, if the evidence leaves a reasonable doubt whether the person had any intent to commit the crime except for inducement or persuasion on the part of some Government officer or agent, then the person is not guilty.


More at the following link:

http://www.lectlaw.com/def/e024.htm

[KansasVoter]

91. I hate the police in general but do not have an issue with this at all.

[Poll_Blind]

99. It's not like busting people for staring at boobs. Someone still has to steal the car.

Even if they left a car with the windows rolled down, keys in the ignition, if you get in that car and drive off with it you're stealing it.

In the grand pantheon of all the fucked up things that police do to meet their quotas, this doesn't even rate in my book. I'm not sure I can even find anything ethically questionable about it.

I'm not familiar with a tv show people have referenced a few times in this thread but I assume what they're doing is self-explanatory.

PB

[ensho]

104. I feel exactly the same as you - and the cops get too caught up in the

'game'

[Vickers]

111. Not me. n/t

[ChoppinBroccoli]

113. You Mean BESIDES The Fact That It's Been Deemed Horribly Unconstitutional?

Most State Courts won't even prosecute "bait car" arrests for the very fact that they ARE bullshit, in a legal sense. I live in one of the biggest "get tough on crime" States in the nation, with one of the most corrupt police forces, and even OUR Courts won't convict people caught under the "bait car" program. That's why the local police force scrapped the entire program.

[ChoppinBroccoli]

117. Let Me Post A Caveat Here

The "Bait Car" program that was being run in my city was one in which a car was parked on the street in a high crime area, the keys were in it, the engine was running, and the door was open. That's what I think of when I hear the term "Bait Car." Anything less than that, I'd have to consider on a case-by-case basis.

[Statistical]

121. Please show a cite where court found a "bait car" to be Unconstitutional?

[Codeine]

123. Which decision was that? nt

[DirkGently]

119. Yes. Anyone else hear the NPR piece about the Austin couple

who kept *calling* the cops about a suspicious unlocked vehicle abandoned on their street? They kept getting the runaround, and finally "broke in" because they were concerned about what may have happened to the driver ... at which point the cops pounced, and they lost their jobs and nearly went bankrupt and to jail trying to prove they weren't criminals.

Ledford and Ward were handcuffed; they waived their right to a lawyer. They told their story to the police investigator at the scene, Spillers. The police eventually let them go. The couple went inside, ate their ice cream and watched a movie. They thought that was the end of it, they said.

Except it wasn't. Sixteen days later, on Ward's birthday, the police came to the house with an affidavit and arrested them on a charge of burglary of a vehicle, a Class A misdemeanor that carries a penalty of up to a year in jail and up to a $4,000 fine. The affidavit, written by Spillers, notes that Ledford was wearing gloves to avoid leaving prints, and both he and his girlfriend "admitted to Mark getting a screwdriver and trying to get in the trunk."

The affidavit does not mention Ledford's previous call to police or that the car was parked near his house. It concludes that Spillers "believes this action constitutes more than mere curiosity or trying to locate the owner's information."

http://www.statesman.com/news/content/news/stories/local/2009/07/26/0726baitcar.html

In my opinion, the cops have very little business "setting up" the public at large to be accused of a crime. Too many ways for it to go wrong or be abused.

[pipi_k]

146. The problem with what that couple did....

First, they did the right thing by reporting it to the police, who seemed unconcerned, stating that it was parked legally.


Where they went wrong was in assuming that some crime had been committed, and then trying to "solve" that "crime" on their own.

Because the key jammed in the trunk, they tried to use a screwdriver to open it. That's breaking and entering, no matter what their motive was.


There's a big difference between being a Good Citizen and interfering with police work. Granted, they didn't KNOW it was a bait car, but when told by the police that it was legally parked, they should have said, "OOOOOkay...." and let well enough alone.

[DirkGently]

147. No. They should never have been charged with burglary,

and the police shouldn't have been deceptive with them when they called. Beyond that, once they HAD called, and were lied to by the police, the cops had no business pouncing on them with charges.

No crime was committed, but these people were forced to defend themselves from criminal charges because the cops were being "cute." That goes well beyond the parameters of law enforcement and into the realm of some kind of espionage against the citizenry at large, which is well beyond what street cops are licensed to do and has no place in free society.

The police have no business running tricks and traps like this on the population at large. What happened in this case, with well-meaning people being hauled in in bad faith when the police had a record of them attempting to do the right thing, is an example of exactly why not.

[ChoppinBroccoli]

125. Let's Change The Car To Something Else

The police put a dollar bill on the ground and then hide around the corner. As soon as someone picks it up, they arrest that person and charge him/her with theft. Anybody got a problem with this? What if it were a $100 bill? Does that change your analysis? How about a purse or a wallet? How about a credit card? Or what if it were a stack of money exactly equal to the amount of a car?

How about we make it a baby, and when someone picks it up, we charge that person with kidnapping?

You can't have it both ways. The only difference between the "bait car" and all the other scenarios I detailed above is a distinction YOU drew in YOUR head. All I did was make it a little bit tougher for you and the cops to read the person's mind. And reading someone's mind is no basis for an arrest.

What if the car had someone sitting in it when the "car thieves" got inside? Still a crime? (This is where you say yes.) How about if the person sitting in it were sitting in the driver's seat? Still a crime? (Again, you say yes here. Where the person sits shouldn't make any difference, should it?) What if the person were sitting in the driver's seat wearing a hat? Still a crime? (Again, you say yes. His wardrobe shouldn't make any difference, should it?) What if the person entering the car got in the back seat? Still a crime? (Again, you say yes because where the person enters shouldn't make any difference.) What if the car was painted yellow? Still a crime? (Again, you say yes because the car's color should be irrelevant.) Congratulations. You just arrested somebody who thought he was getting into a taxicab. See how thorny things get when you start reading people's minds?

A necessary element of car theft is you must prove that the person entered the car with the SPECIFIC INTENT to commit a crime therein. You just read two different scenarios above, posted by people other than myself, in which people were or could have been charged with crimes under the "bait car" program who had no specific intent to commit crimes. And believe me, if real life can give you two different scenarios, just think how many someone like me, who's seen people framed up by the police in all KINDS of crazy-creative ways can dream up. But you go on thinking you can read people's minds. Just hope someone doesn't try to read YOUR mind one day and get it wrong. Those kinds of things happen an awful lot when you obediently roll over for a Police State and allow cops to cast incredibly wide nets.

On second thought, don't we have enough ACTUAL criminals out there for the cops to catch so they don't have to waste their time CREATING criminals? What the stories don't tell you is that while 3 cops sit and watch the "bait car," 3 different people a block away get their heads blown off by ACTUAL CRIMINALS. But by all means.........clean up those streets.

[Rebubula]

136. Wow...

...all that typing and still the FAIL is strong.

A dollar in the street has no defined owner. A baby in the street - well, how often does that happen? Creating strawmen arguments does not win the day.

A car is an expensive device that has defined ownership and is lockable. You cannot simply take one as you would a dollar bill in the street.

No one is creating criminals - they are out there every day stealing your shit and fucking with your women (or in your bank taking your life savings).

Feel free to continue to argue this point, the adults will be in another thread

[ChoppinBroccoli]

141. Your Legal Analysis Is Laughable

Where did you get your law degree? Because I can tell you where I got mine.

"A dollar in the street has no defined ownership"--Feel free to continue to make the argument that money has no owner, and therefore stealing money is not a crime. There are about a million prisoners behind bars right now who will tell you otherwise. But if you agree with me that dollar bills CAN belong to people despite the fact that they don't have Titles, then your legal analysis is wrong, and you'll have to tell me how picking up a dollar bill that doesn't belong to you is ANY different from getting into a car that doesn't belong to you.

"A car is an expensive device"--the value of the thing stolen is irrelevant. Theft is theft.

"that has defined ownership"--you can own things that don't have titles. Just because you can't easily find the owner of a dollar bill doesn't mean it doesn't have one.

"and is lockable"--so it's only a crime if the thing stolen is able to be locked? OK, let's just assume for a minute that we live in this little fantasyland you've created in your own mind and you're right. Wouldn't the fact that the doors are unlocked negate your argument? Oops.

"You cannot simply take one (car) as you would a dollar bill on the street"--Again, the difficulty involved in stealing the thing is irrelevant.


So let's sum up. You took ONE of my MANY examples, provided faulty legal analysis on EVERY point, ignored the other scenarios which were harder for you to address, threw in a little insulting and condescending language and then declared yourself the winner. Sorry, Scooter, but that just don't fly when you're talking to a person who actually knows something about the law. Oh, I'm sure you sounded quite impressive to all the other folks who think in catchphrases and bumper stickers like the ones you used to conclude your post, but you would have been laughed out of every courtroom in the nation had you stood up and offered that legal analysis. Next time you decide to pick a fight about the law, make sure the person you're belittling doesn't make a living practicing it first.

[pipi_k]

144. Just for ha-ha's....

Can you please cite a law (with a link) which states that picking up a dollar bill from the sidewalk is illegal...



thanks

[Rebubula]

148. LOLZ

Online everyone is a lawyer\engineer\karate master

You still fail. I win.

[pipi_k]

138. Finding a dollar bill on the sidewalk isn't a crime.

that's for starters...

and the statement:

"A necessary element of car theft is you must prove that the person entered the car with the SPECIFIC INTENT to commit a crime therein."

Well, that's not real hard to prove, is it...


If someone enters an unattended running car and drives off with it, there's only one possible explanation for it. The person intends to take possession of a vehicle that doesn't belong to him.

Someone with honorable intentions can do one of two things when faced with a running car with nobody in it...

1. Call and report it to the police...or...

2. Shut the car off, remove the keys, and hide them under the floor mat. Shut the door. Leave the area.

[ChoppinBroccoli]

140. Choose Option #2 And Go To Jail

Because you just committed about 5 different crimes. See how tricky this business can become when you start allowing cops to set people up? It's VERY hard to prove what's inside a person's head when they do things. But I guess when you can read minds as well as you do........

And I'm talking about the instances when the person merely gets inside the car (because the vast majority of people busted in "bait car" stings in this area are arrested as soon as they enter the vehicle). Driving off with it is another matter altogether. Although I could craft you about a dozen different scenarios in which a completely innocent person with no intent to steal anything would get inside a running vehicle and drive away. Are you REALLY that confident in your ability to read people's minds?

[pipi_k]

143. OK, I'll bite...

If someone sees an unattended running car and turns the engine off, putting the keys under the mat, exactly which "5 crimes" have they committed?

[Lucian]

126. I'm glad I'm not the only one who has a problem with this show.

It just seems wrong for the police to plant a car just to catch someone stealing it.

Others could disagree with this, but I won't be changing my mind on it.

[slackmaster]

145. How do you feel about Dateline NBC's "To Catch A Predator"?

It seems to me to be pretty much the same idea, except instead of planting a car they plant a (fake) underage girl.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10912603/

[upstandingcitizens]

127. entrapment

they leave the freakin keys in most of them and running alot of times.

[pipi_k]

139. So it's basically it's the cops' fault, right?

Sort of like women who wear tight or revealing clothing "make" guys rape them...

Poor guys...if they hadn't been "enticed" into it, the whole thing never would have happened.


:eyes:

[flvegan]

128. Hi, I'm Chris Hansen. Why don't you have a seat there...

[cherish44]

129. well it might make people who have seen theshow think twice about stealing a car

not saying it will end car stealing but it will deter some I'll bet...

[Politicalboi]

150. So entrapment by some would be just going into a store

All these items could be yours if you try and steal them. They have camera's in the stores. It makes no difference here either. I would never take a car that is running or with the keys in it. I may make a comment but never follow through. And that's the difference.

[Supply Side Jesus]

151. Ridiculous thread...

So it's not ok to steal...unless it's a bait car. Then somehow you are not responsible for your actions...even though the perp KNOWINGLY sought to permanently deprive another person of property.

The backward triple axel fosberry flops of thought on DU astounds me still...