Willingham: The huge problem with the LA Times teachers project

[proud2BlibKansan]

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Value added models work well when you’re trying to evaluate a school. They work much less well when you’re trying to evaluate an individual class.

Here’s a thought experiment. You and I are equally good fourth grade teachers, but I am more clever about looking professional in front of parents during back to school night. As a consequence, parents think I’m a better teacher. Who will have better value-added measures?

Arguably, I will. If I have a reputation as the better teacher, parents who are more involved in their child’s education will go to the principal and request me. If I have a principal who accedes to such requests, I’ll have a classroom with a higher proportion of kids with supportive, involved parents.

Value added models assume that kids are assigned to classrooms at random. They aren’t.

more . . . http://voices.washingtonpost.com/answer-sheet/daniel-willingham/willingham-the-huge-problem-wi.html

[sandnsea]

1. So the teacher with the sucky kids

will start to complain and make sure they don't get stuck with all the losers.

Or maybe if parents are the ones that make the difference in an education, the ones who are just keeping their kids home and doing it themselves have it right. /sarcasm

It's a riot when the teachers throw bigger fits about grading than the kids do.

[proud2BlibKansan]

2. Do you honestly believe teachers have any say over who gets placed in their class?

:rofl:

[FLyellowdog]

3. Rarely, if ever. Been there/done that. nt

[proud2BlibKansan]

4. I think I will go in tomorrow and ask to edit my classlist

I'll let you know how that goes.

[sandnsea]

7. You should have already had that input

You should have had at the end of the year when you sat down with the previous grade teachers and discussed students and learning styles.

And if you didn't do that, then maybe there's something for your school to learn.

[madfloridian]

9. lol

Teachers do not get that option. The funny part is I got the tough kids to handle because I was good at classroom management, and worked well with the parents. They were assigned to me via principal, secretary, or parent.

It was meant as a compliment, but when that happened my class was lucky to get through each day and there was little left to get good test scores.

Yeh, right.

[sandnsea]

13. YES they do

Maybe you should go someplace besides Florida before you comment on the way schools operate.

[proud2BlibKansan]

16. They most certainly do not

I've been in this business 30+ years. I've taught at a dozen or more schools in two states. My dad and several relatives were teachers. Many of my friends are teachers. No school allows the teacher to choose which kids will be in her/his class.

[Name removed]

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[proud2BlibKansan]

24. Bullshit

You're living in a fantasy world.

[MadHound]

35. Gee, aren't you the charming and pleasant one

Damn, telling professionals, people in the field, what goes on in their field, when that simply isn't true. You have no clue about education or teaching because you simply don't know, and are therefore not qualified to make the blanket statements and judgments that you're making.

Then you go slam an entire section of the country. Fuck, who pissed in your Wheaties? Frankly I'm happy to live in the Midwest, for a number of reasons. Thank God I don't live in Oregon, otherwise I would have to live next to your unpleasant self.

Stick with what you know, whatever that is, and leave the unpleasantness, value judgments and vitriol for entire sections of the country at home, unspoken.

[dsc]

31. I have taught in 3 states and 8 districts, I have never, not even one time

had any imput at all as to who got in my class and who didn't with one exception. I could have kids who failed my class and were assigned to me again, change their schedule if there was room in another class for them. I don't know what planet you live on, but it isn't this one.

[dkf]

28. Maybe sandnsea has a different system than yours?

I imagine not all schools handle things the same way.

[proud2BlibKansan]

32. Common practice. This is an administrative role.

Teachers don't get to pick their students. It's not hard to understand what this would lead to. I can't imagine any school allowing this practice.

[dkf]

34. Well if its like getting picked at recess whats the big deal?

[proud2BlibKansan]

15. In what dream world??

I teach special ed. I don't get to create disabilities in children.

[sandnsea]

18. My kids' schools

Several of them. They ask parents for their key concerns about their kids, the kind of teacher they want for their kids. The child's current teacher makes recommendations. They discuss kids with the next year's teachers at meetings, and then the kids are assigned.

Even kids with disabilities need teachers with different specialties.

[proud2BlibKansan]

23. And if there is only one special ed teacher at a school?

Oh I know. In your dream world, the school district flies in a specialist who matches the child's learning style.

And that music teacher your child doesn't like? Just bring in a different teacher for that one hour a week! :rofl:

[sandnsea]

26. Anything to avoid facing accountability and change

Pathetic. Absolutely pathetic.

You are seriously not worth it.

[proud2BlibKansan]

27. Anything to win an argument. Even lies.

Talk about pathetic.

[FLyellowdog]

12. Please do...I can hardly wait. nt

[sandnsea]

6. Quoting

"Arguably, I will. If I have a reputation as the better teacher, parents who are more involved in their child’s education will go to the principal and request me. If I have a principal who accedes to such requests, I’ll have a classroom with a higher proportion of kids with supportive, involved parents."

Maybe you'll stop being such doormats if your job is on the line.

Or, maybe you'll implement a method of assigning students to teachers based on parent preference and teacher recommendations with no alterations once teachers have been assigned.

Who knows. But if the teachers can't step up and get anything done, why in the world do they think a parent can.

[madfloridian]

11. You really have contempt for us, don't you?

Thanks so much for that.

Obama's attitude toward teachers has rubbed off on many Democrats now. That's a shame.

[sandnsea]

14. The teachers at DU? Absolutely

Maybe it's got something to do with where you teach, but I've never seen teachers come up with so many excuses for why a student couldn't learn.

[Name removed]

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[eridani]

29. Because you know that all American schools MIST turn out like Lake Wobegon

If all of the children are not above average, it's obviously the teachers' fault.

[proud2BlibKansan]

17. You are a piece of work. You truly have no idea how things really work in education.

I pity your children's teachers.

Sincerely yours,
Doormat.

[sandnsea]

20. I know how it worked in my kids' schools

Sorry you don't know how to do anything but whine. I wouldn't have tolerated it from any of my kids' teachers. That's called being an involved parent. What you say you want -- until the parent crawls up YOUR ass.

[proud2BlibKansan]

25. You think we whine to PARENTS?!

Good grief. All you have are personal insults and fantasies that don't come close to resembling reality.

[madfloridian]

37. Well, she admits above she has contempt for DU teachers...

So I think that makes it pretty clear where she stands.

Thanks for the post.

[laughingliberal]

5. K & R nt

[dkf]

8. I thought the ratings were based on improvement in scores?

[madfloridian]

10. A student is affected by classroom environment other factors...

they are not the same from year to year.

[proud2BlibKansan]

19. They haven't come up with that metric yet

Give them time.

[rucky]

36. Scores are from year to year - between two teachers & grade levels.

How can that measure individual teacher performance?

The only way to measure improvement within a grade level through standardized testing is to administer a pretest that hits the same areas as the real test. This is the bare minimum for assessment.

Teachers in general aren't against assessment - they measure student progress all the time. The issue is with authentic assessment - which is pretty much everything else that goes on in the classroom that's not THE test, or setting aside the usual curriculum to prep for THE test.

[Hannah Bell]

30. Here's a video which describes the problems succinctly:

http://seattleducation2010.wordpress.com/2010/08/07/merit-pay-teacher-pay-and-value-added-measures/

[proud2BlibKansan]

33. That's terrific

Thanks