Toyota crash investigation concludes DRIVER ERROR in majority of crashes

[Cronus Protagonist]

Experts at the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration examined 58 vehicles involved in sudden-acceleration reports and found data in 35 of them showed the brakes weren't applied at the time of the crash. Data from nine other vehicles showed the brakes were used only in the last moment before impact.

The report doesn't specify driver error as a cause of unintended acceleration, although people familiar with the investigation have said the findings point to pedal misapplication—mistakenly hitting the gas instead of the brakes—as a likely cause.

http://tinyurl.com/23saqg5

[Merlot]

1. Your car starts accelerating wildly and YOU'RE at fault for not hitting the brakes

soon enough?

[Lance_Boyle]

7. Most likely YOU'RE at fault for hitting the accelerator instead of the brake.

Happens in all makes and models, usually to older drivers.

Thanks to NHTSA for setting the record straight - I would love to see an investigation of the deliberate attempt to destroy Toyota in the media at the same time the US took majority ownership of GM. But I'm not holding my breath.

[Merlot]

9. "The report doesn't specify driver error..." Just what are they saying here?

"The report doesn't specify driver error as a cause of unintended acceleration, although people familiar with the investigation have said the findings point to pedal misapplication—mistakenly hitting the gas instead of the brakes—as a likely cause."

Sorry that I'm not buying the "pedal misapplication" theory. Unless all of those drivers were older and confused, it just doesn't make sense.

[pipoman]

13. It is exactly, exactly

the same findings as the Audi incident in the 1980's. It also explains why virtually every single make and model has reports of UA. Just for an experiment go to the nearest Wal-Mart and watch the people who come in who have mostly driven themselves to the Wal-Mart, then after an hour or so of that, re-evaluate whether or not you can see how a few hundred drivers in the US could, maybe, hit the gas instead of the brakes.

I believe that there is a phenomenon associated with panic which effects a few people occasionally which results in their believing with every fiber of their being that they did hit the brakes when in fact they hit the gas.

[Statistical]

24. Actually it happens thousands of times every day.

Most of the time the person realizes after the fact however if they had a Toyota durring the period in question they would "logical" conclude that their Toyota malfunctioned.

Audi has the same issue in the 1980s. No fault was ever found. They even had examples where videotape showed the vehicles brake lights never came on despite the person "knowing" they hit the "brakes" but car kept going faster. Of course it kept going faster they were pushing the gas pedal.

It is pretty easy to do if someone is absent minded.

Say they mix up the pedals. The car starts to move, so they push "brake" harder but the car doesn't slow instead it accelerates more ("out of control") getting a little scared they push the "brake" even harder making the car go even faster.

[flvegan]

2. data from the vehicles' "black boxes" show the driver was not stepping on the brake

I stopped reading there.

Yeah, they gave up on the brakes when they didn't work to stop them. Big fucking shock. And you know in the last seconds of my life when I'm looking at that tree, maybe...JUST maybe, my foot isn't on the brake.

[Lance_Boyle]

8. I don't think you can draw that conclusion.

The most likely scenario is that confused drivers hit the accelerator instead of the brake. Happens all the time in all makes and models. Would be interesting to see, in terms of validating your theory, whether the brake was pressed at all - I don't know how many seconds of data the black box retains. But I'd wager that in most cases the brake was never touched, because of the DRIVER ERROR of mistaking the accelerator for it.

[Vickers]

3. Is the data on the "black boxes" proprietary?

I bet it is.

[DainBramaged]

12. Yup

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35713831/


Toyota has for years blocked access to data stored in devices similar to airline "black boxes" that could explain crashes blamed on sudden unintended acceleration, according to an Associated Press review of lawsuits nationwide and interviews with auto crash experts.

The AP investigation found that Toyota has been inconsistent — and sometimes even contradictory — in revealing exactly what the devices record and don't record, including critical data about whether the brake or accelerator pedals were depressed at the time of a crash.

By contrast, most other automakers routinely allow much more open access to information from their event data recorders, commonly known as EDRs.

AP also found that Toyota:

Has frequently refused to provide key information sought by crash victims and survivors.
Uses proprietary software in its EDRs. Until this week, there was only a single laptop in the U.S. containing the software needed to read the data following a crash.
In some lawsuits, when pressed to provide recorder information Toyota either settled or provided printouts with the key columns blank.

[Vickers]

15. Wow DB, thanks for the great answer! I was actually just being cynical

when I asked the question, a trait which has served me well over the years (QED!).

Yer pal,

Vickers

[boppers]

16. I don't buy it.

"only a single laptop"?

Then there's this gem:
"When Toyota was asked by the AP to explain what exactly its recorders do collect, a company statement said Thursday that the devices record data from five seconds before until two seconds after an air bag is deployed in a crash."

So, they can magically predict crashes? That's, uhm, some shoddy writing.

[IDemo]

21. No

I would take it to mean the system always holds the previous five seconds of realtime data in RAM but actually writes it to flash memory only after detecting an airbag deployment.

The thing is, there is no independent set of sensors telling the EDR what the throttle and brake positions were. If the HALL effect sensors in the gas pedal were indicating (falsely or otherwise) a full throttle position, that's what both the engine control system and black box are going to see.

[DainBramaged]

22. (sigh) Google is your friend, look it up then

:eyes:


Ever heard of slamming the brakes?

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

4. I will bet there is a much simpler explaination, $$$

Dirtbags trying to cash in, just like the syringes in pepsi cans.

[PBS Poll-435]

6. Severed finger in Wendy's Chili. nt.

[Omaha Steve]

14. How do dead people collect?

Do tell.

[boppers]

17. Life Insurance, for one.

Disability, for those that survive.

[Omaha Steve]

19. You really believe a Ca. driving instructor killed his wife, kids, and himself to collect $ ?

This I got to hear.

http://blogs.consumerreports.org/cars/2010/08/one-year-later-aftermath-of-the-toyota-recalls.html

We’re nearing the one-year anniversary of the horrific crash that killed an off-duty California Highway Patrol officer and his family when their Lexus sped out of control. The aftermath and investigation into the issue raised fears of sudden unintended acceleration (SUA) in Toyota vehicles and lead to millions of vehicles being recalled for what Toyota said where problems with throttle entrapment due to the floor mats and stuck accelerator pedals.

snip: In the year ahead, we will discover the results from the several Toyota SUA-related investigations by NHTSA, NASA, and the National Academy of Sciences, and the automaker says it will spread smart-throttle technology (aka brake override) throughout its 2011 models. Here’s hoping that all of these investigations, and the spotlight on NHTSA, make for a calmer and safer future for Toyota owners.
—Liza Barth

[boppers]

37. How is a CHP a driving instructor?

Some folks have other motivations, of course:
http://www.darwinawards.com/

[Omaha Steve]

39. He was a certified driving instructor too

It was in all the Toyota news last year.

[PBS Poll-435]

5. Well, DUH.

But don't even try to explain how improper delivery and explanation of electronic brakes and throttle can cause somebody to not understand how their Blu-Ray works.

That would be irresponsible and wrong. Cars have and always will have the same exact components. '57 Chevys and 2010 Camrys work exactly the same way. Pedals make the car go and stop. That is why they are there!









(just pick the right one)

[EOTE]

32. Not exactly.

Are you familiar with drive-by-wire systems? I can guarantee you that no '57 Chevy had drive-by-wire. Or is that the point you're trying to make? Sarcasm can be difficult to detect online.

[slackmaster]

10. WWGPS?

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_gLfeaVZEwNo/S0lixMnUnyI/AAAAAAAAGRs/3n-O1zkawOQ/s320/images+gomer+pyle.jpg

[DainBramaged]

11. Tell that to the family members of the deceased

Knowing what I know about the 'black boxes' in cars, if NHTSA let the Toyota technician show them the data instead of reading it themselves (we'll never know) and since up until recently there was only ONE reader in the entire United States (the insurance companies HATE Toyota because they REFUSE to share the data with them when a vehicle crashes, while EVERY OTHER MANUFACTURER DOES)I don't beliieve that once agin they are going to rry and pin this on the drivers.


But since they can ONLY show 'evidence' that 35 brakes wern't applied, well of course all of the rest must be blamed too.......
:sarcasm:

[boppers]

18. Ever been in a car that suffers from sudden acceleration?

I have.

Multiple times, multiple causes.

I'm still living because I know how to drive.

Telling the family members that their deceased *didn't* know how to drive isn't very polite, though.

[blue_onyx]

30. Disgusting

Blaming the victims...one of the most vile comments I've read on DU. Toyota has big quality problems. It's that simple.

[boppers]

34. "It's the gun's fault, not mine!"

If you cannot safely handle potentially lethal machinery, be it a firearm or an automobile or an airplane or a kitchen stove, you shouldn't play with it.

[blue_onyx]

41. nonsense

The product is inherently faulty.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

36. Is someone trying to build a mosque in a Toyota?

[TexasObserver]

20. Toyota declaring itself innocent happens every month.

It's hogwash today, just as it has been hogwash for years.

They're liars who know that a percentage of the population will always line up with the manufacturer in these kind of cases. If what they were saying was true, Toyota would not have experienced many times as many reports of these incidents as Nissan. There's a reason Toyota has experienced the problem more than others. They have a defectly designed product, unreasonably dangerous in its defective state.

Toyota has systematically engaged in spreading lies to cover their tracks on this subject, and their defenders lap it up. Nothing new. Just another Toyota press release.

[Nihil]

27. Bloggers declaring Toyota guilty happens every month.

It's hogwash today, just as it has been hogwash for years.

They're liars who know that a percentage of the population will always
line up against the manufacturer in these kind of cases. If what they
were saying was true, no other manufacturer would have experienced any
reports of these incidents, just Toyota. There's no reason Toyota has
experienced the problem more than others. They have a well designed
product, sadly unreasonably dangerous with defective drivers.

American manufacturers have systematically engaged in spreading lies to
cover their asses on this subject, and their defenders lap it up.
Nothing new. Just another GM press release.

[david13]

23. NHTSA found this. NOT Toyota. This is the truth. This is what

I have been saying all along. There is nothing wrong with the Toyota. It is merely a slander campaign. The old "I'm a victim and I need compensation (money)" syndrome.
dc

[Cronus Protagonist]

29. shhhhhhhh

You'll wake up the peeps who insist modern car manufacturing is crappy and old folk never make mistakes like that.

[chrisa]

25. "The plane was on fire and missing a wing, but it was the pilot's fault for crashing."

Try harder, Toyota.

[pipoman]

26. Of coarse the difference would be

that anyone, especially a scientist, could determine the cause. In this case, not one of the literally thousands of crash investigators, insurance investigators, mechanics, engineers, or government agents has been able to say what, if any, problem exists. Of coarse there is the long, long history of reports of unintended acceleration on virtually every single make and model of vehicle which is mass produced. I, personally, believe that a definitive problem would be determined by now if one existed. I have less faith in the driving abilities of the masses than in the reliability and predictability of electronics and mechanics.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

28. driver error is the cause of the majority of all crashes.

no surprise here.

[Renew Deal]

31. They are correct.

The error was buying the cars in the first place.

[SammyWinstonJack]

33. heheh

:evilgrin:

[Canuckistanian]

35. "Driver Error" for deciding to buy a Toyota?

Did they evaluate THAT?

[DirkGently]

38. It's possible.

This matter will be determined by science, not emotion.

And yes, it is entirely possible that people *died* because they mistakenly pushed the accelerator instead of the brake. It's happened many times before.

It is also possible that the Toyota cars in question HAD some kind of malfunction, but that drivers also erred, turning a serious issue into a lethal one. For example, one question that hasn't been answered is why, if drivers depressed the brakes, the cars did not stop. Even with the accelerator "floored," brakes are powerful enough that they should stop the car.

Does no one remember the saga of the Audi 5000? Many "incidents." Many outraged, injured drivers. A 60 Minutes piece. And ultimately, the worst that could be said about the car was that the gas and brake pedals could perhaps have been further apart.

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/the-best-of-ttac-the-audi-5000-intended-unintended-acceleration-debacle/

[ThomWV]

40. I don't doubt it at all. I've seen moronic drivers do every stupid thing possible

and that's just what I've seen - you've seen as much or more. Between us we've seen every stupid stunt there is and plenty of them were not only suicidally or homicidally stupid but also involved rapid accelleration of a vehicle with no faults at all other than aforementioned driver.