Good Teacher, Bad Teacher

[MineralMan]

There's lots of attention today to a proposal to release teacher effectiveness reports. I think it's a mistake to do so, but what is to be done with poor teachers or just plain bad teachers? Anyone who looks back on his or her own educational experience can point to excellent teachers who inspired them to learn. By the same token, anyone can also point to teachers who failed miserably to do their jobs. Anyone could also point to teachers who were just adequate, but none of us remember them very well.

Teaching is a wonderful profession, and dedicated, talented teachers play an enormous role in shaping the students they teach. Poor teachers, on the other hand, do exactly the opposite. A couple of examples from my own life stand out:

In high school, I had an English teacher in my sophomore year. Even though I got an A in this teacher's class, as I did in all of my classes, this teacher took me aside after class one day and said to me, "You know that you'll never amount to a damn thing, don't you?" I've never been certain what led this man to say such a thing to a 15-year-old A student. I sent him a copy of my first book, with a pithy little inscription on the title page.

Also in high school, I had another English teacher, who inspired ever student in her class to grow and excel to the best of his or her abilities. She helped us all to learn how to read literature and how to write about it. She worked to get rid of weaknesses in each student in her classes and succeeded in making every student a better reader and writer. She encouraged constantly and her mark-ups of writing assignments were a model of showing students how to fix their mistakes, rather than just marking those mistakes.

I could give many more examples of excellence and utter failure.

So, even though I dislike the idea of exposing evaluations to public scrutiny, I believe that there must be some way to hold poor teachers accountable and reward those teachers who work their butts off to give students the best education they can. I'm not sure what that method would be, but I know it's needed.

So, instead of just decrying one idea of public measures of teacher accountability, why don't we discuss how this situation could be handled in a way that benefited parents and students by helping them know which teachers are excellent, and which are failures at their profession? I encourage DUers to tell us about good and bad teachers they have experienced in this process of trying to figure out a good way to handle this.

[EFerrari]

1. Your premise is false. There is no evidence whatsoever

that these numbers measure a teacher's competence.

This stunt is simply more harassment of teachers, more union busting.

[MineralMan]

3. You didn't read my post, apparently.

I don't like using these numbers either, and don't want them publicized. I'm looking for a good way to inform students and parents about the teachers in their schools. The post is a means of trying to come up with ideas of how that might be done.

Please put your personal dislike of me aside, and address the actual content of the post.

Did you not have any poor teachers during your educational period? Did you not have some who had been on the job for many years? If so, you had a most remarkable education.

[proud2BlibKansan]

21. So now you're implying something is wrong with teachers who have been on the job for many years

Nice.

We honor experience in other professions. Why not teaching? How about that as the topic of an OP instead of allowing yet another opportunity to beat teachers up?

[EFerrari]

31. Teachers are targets because the vultures behind taking our system apart

are authoritarians. So of course the first thing they have to do is discredit the most powerful stakeholders.

[MineralMan]

34. Not at all. I was responding to the idea that bad teachers

don't teach for many years. That's patently not true. Of course there's nothing wrong with experience. Experienced teachers with proven skills are crucial. Keeping poor teachers around, however, is not the same thing at all.

Finally, accurate information to help consumers of education also seems important. What form that information takes is what I'm trying to discuss.

[proud2BlibKansan]

41. Then you suffer from poorly communicating your message

<Did you not have any poor teachers during your educational period? Did you not have some who had been on the job for many years?>

The implication is clear.

[dionysus]

46. no, his post was perfectly clear. you seem to be coming from the point that criticism of any

teacher is criticism of you personally.

[mzteris]

50. one has to wonder why that is . . . n/t

[proud2BlibKansan]

51. LOL go visit the ed forum

Plenty of that going on here on DU. Many can't discuss this issue and resort to personal slams against teachers. Just last night I was told I wasn't fit to teach and thank god I didn't teach that posters' children. I've also been told I am too old to be effective and I should retire. Right here on DU. So yes, we teachers here have good reason to take this criticism personally.

[EFerrari]

53. His premise is false. That you had a teacher that you didn't like

or even, that didn't help you, is not evidence of a problem in the teaching profession. Repeating over and over that it is is every bit as silly as saying Bush is the same as Gore.

[dionysus]

69. so you're coming from the position that every teacher is golden huh? the fact that there are some

crappy teachers doesn't mean there's a profession-wide problem.

[EFerrari]

81. And where did you get the idea that was my position?

[dionysus]

83. because you seem to take the OP as being personally directed at you.

[EFerrari]

86. I don't see how. I'm not even teaching right now and probably won't

any time soon. Actually, it was the OP that personalized my discussion with him, not the other way around.

[Kweli4Real]

54. Exactly ...

What has happened to us? It seems that we take personal offense to anyone pointing out the weakness within our circle that we know exists.

[EFerrari]

57. Taking personal offense has nothing to do with this. n/t

[Common Sense Party]

67. +1,000,000

[Joe Fields]

73. +10,000,000

[proud2BlibKansan]

115. Still waiting for your most recent work evaluation Joe

Put your money where your mouth is.

[Joe Fields]

231. show me yours and I'll show you mine...

[proud2BlibKansan]

232. Not playing the nana nana booboo game with you, Joe

You support this idea of making these value added evaluations public. I don't. So why should I post my private evaluations?

[Joe Fields]

247. When a newspaper want to print my evaluation, I could not care less.

I do my job, and do it well. I see no need for me personally to make it public. Who would care? But I think the public has a right to see quality of teachers their kids are subjected to.

[proud2BlibKansan]

248. What is your job, Joe?

[JuniperLea]

102. That's how I see it too...

This is about as sad as it gets... when you can't have a decent conversation, when you can't ask questions or offer suggestions... pathetic, really.

[proud2BlibKansan]

120. And when the suggestions are: you suck, I'm glad you don't teach my children and

you aren't fit to be around kids . . .

Do we just reply 'Please sir, may I have another?'

As soon as there is a productive conversation here that doesn't include a million reasons someone's 3rd grade teacher sucked and the assumption we're all like that - I'll be right there. Until then, as long as the conversation evolves into insulting an entire profession, I will be here to defend it.

[MineralMan]

186. You know, in the OP, I criticized one teacher and praised another.

This is not a thread saying that all teachers suck. Indeed, most are good. Some are excellent. We all know that. I balanced my OP by presenting both types of teacher, and said why.

And yet, many only saw the criticism of a clearly bad teacher. Did they stop reading? Did they not see my praise for a teacher who embodied all that is praiseworthy in the profession?

In that OP, I also stated my disapproval of publishing test results as a means of rating teachers. Then I asked if we could figure out some other system to help rate teachers. And yet, a number of people kept saying that I wanted to use test results. I specifically said that I thought that was a bad idea, and repeated that several times in response to those who missed that.

I called the teaching profession and honorable and important one in the OP. And yet, several people said that I was just here to bash teachers.

I cannot understand how my OP was so misunderstood. It was clear. It was seeking discussion about how we could somehow rate teachers fairly, and not by using test results. And yet, there has been virtually no discussion.

Hmph!

[mzteris]

198. NO one assumes ALL teachers are like that - why do you ASSUME

That critizing ONE teacher is an attack on ALL teachers - and more specifically - an attack on you?

Although, when someone does tell YOU point blank they're glad you're not their kids' teacher, then yes, you can take THAT personally, but please don't take it to mean they're saying it about ALL teachers.

[janx]

221. Whoa, whoa!

Who said those things? And who is insulting an entire profession? Where is this coming from?

[mzteris]

48. No he isn't.

To pretend that ALL teachers are "good teachers" does ALL teachers a huge disservice. I don't care if they've been there 20 years, if they're bad, they're bad. (And isn't it awful that they're still there after 20 years?!? Think of the damage they have done!!!!)

Let's HONOR those teachers who DESERVE to be HONORED and let's get rid of those who give teachers a bad name. You KNOW who they are. Everyone KNOWS who they are! Why are they still around, eh?

[MineralMan]

66. Exactly. I think I was clear in my praise of good teachers,

and even gave an example to compare with my example of a bad teacher.

I'm not sure why teaching should be a profession without criticism where it is needed. And I think consumers need to know what they're getting.

Maybe an Angie's List sort of thing should be available.

[Hannah Bell]

105. bullshit

[MineralMan]

125. Another one-word post?

That's helpful.

[Born_A_Truman]

194. How about equine feces ...

Switch it up a bit!

[dionysus]

235. yes, you're full of exactly that. it amazes me how certain folks are doing backflips to get offended

over the OP.

[mzteris]

152. It truly is disconcerting that the very people

who have the most to gain (besides the children, of course!) from "outting" the BAD teachers, are the very ones who want to pretend that no such thing exists. Or that they're only a "small minority" - or that it's oh so easy to get rid of them. When EVERYONE and his brother KNOWS for a FACT that that simply IS NOT TRUE! It reminds me of the Catholic Church and their denial of wrongdoing by priests. . .

It gives them ALL a bad name to have them there. And, it makes their jobs HARDER - because ultimately, they're going to be the teacher who gets the students of those "bad teachers", or the children of parents who had those "bad teachers".

I don't like "the test" - not for kids nor teachers. IMO - everyone in the building KNOWS who the "good teachers" are and just exactly who the "bad teachers" are. So stop pussyfooting around and do something about it. Put them in a classroom as an assistant to a GOOD teacher. If they won't do it, tell 'em to hit the bricks.

I can't tell you the number of "bad experiences" I had growing up. I had very few GOOD teachers, mostly average to mediocre ones and a couple of incredibly BAD - nearly criminal ones I either had or knew. The sadistic ones who liked to paddle kids. The ones who'd "lose" your papers and insist you didn't turn it in. The ones who'd make the tests harder and harder because they didn't like it when students got "A's" in their classes. The ones who would ridicule or insult students - calling them dumb, lazy, stupid, or making fun of their clothes or hair or glasses (Oh just "kidding around" doncha know?). The ones who accused you of having your brother do your work because they - the teacher - didn't understand what the hell you were talking about in your presentation. The ones who had vodka in their coffee everyday. The ones who preyed on girls in highschool. The one who told your kid they were "stupid" because they couldn't grasp they poor way you taught a subject and tried to hold them back, but when the exam was given for math, said child scored in the "advanced" range and when another teacher took over her math tutorage, declared she was "very very good" at math.

The one who COMPLETELY IGNORED a child because the principal told them to. This was my son and we had put the Principal on report to the School board. My child suffered and suffered a lot! - and that was the "TEACHER OF THE YEAR!" because she didn't have the backbone to stand up to the Principal and insist that the child's welfare was more important.

A BIG Thank you to:

Mrs. Rollins - 5th grade.
Mrs. Ellisor - 7th grade English
Mr. Bailey - 11th grade Alg 2 & Trig
Mr. Sterling - 12 Grade Intro to Calculus

Mr. Cryar - My daughters 11th & 12th grade alg /stat teacher
Mr. Bolton - my daughters 7th grade history teacher - and math tutor
Mrs. Dameron - my son's K/1 teacher


And a big FU to the absolute worst:

Miss McGee- 3rd grade
Miss Mann - 6th grade
Mrs. Yankee- high school typing
(naming these names 'cause they're probably all dead by now - I won't list the bad ones my kids had because heaven help us - they're still TEACHING!!!!)

[JuniperLea]

98. Since when is being at any job for "many years"...

Any indication of ability, success, or that this person should hold any particular position?

I've known many teachers and other professionals who have held jobs they were ill-suited for, and should not be in.

Experience only counts in any profession when the professional has grown better with said experience. That isn't always the case, and I don't think it should be assumed.

[proud2BlibKansan]

113. Practice makes perfect

That is true of doctors, lawyers, beauticians; even the guy who does my taxes admits he's learned how to do it better and more efficiently as he's gained experience.

I married a musician who is much more talented at age 60 than he was at age 15 when he started playing.

To ignore the value of experience and its bearing on competence is just ignorant.

[JuniperLea]

114. Wrong... very, painfully, wrong...

Not everyone gets better at what they do... that's much like all other broad brush strokes... it just isn't true in all cases. Many people get worse, for whatever reason.

No one is ignoring the value of experience; it is a good thing for many people. You cannot say for all. Some people are in professions they are just plain not suited for, and they never get any better.

[proud2BlibKansan]

121. Then they need to find another job.

But assuming all teachers suck once they reach a certain number of years' experience?? Talk about a broad brush!!

[MineralMan]

127. Nobody has said that at all.

I said that there are bad teachers who have been teaching for years. I did not, in any way, say that teaching for years creates bad teachers.

[MineralMan]

123. Practice does, indeed, make perfect.

The issue is in what is perfected.

For the competent, motivated teacher, practice only creates more competence and motivation. For the incompetent, lazy, or unmotivated teacher, practice tends to create better masking of those characteristics.

Similarly, the same two areas of perfection also apply to administrators, who share in the creation of good and poor schools.

[Hannah Bell]

129. bullshit.

[MineralMan]

134. Oh, very instructive. One-word imprecations make for such

nice discussions. I believe you've made two identical posts, both free of content. Thanks so much for adding to the discussion.

[Arkana]

225. Nailed it.

The good teachers got better as time goes on.

The bad ones? They schmoozed the right people in the administration. That's how they stayed on.

[Joe Fields]

233. Yup, and I have witnessed it. But many here are in denial..

[tinymontgomery]

238. I teach that

perfect practice makes perfect. practice makes perfect to me means that I can keep practicing the wrong way and still think I'm perfect. Not trying to argue just a different mind set about perfect.

[mzteris]

154. [phone] n/t

[Arkana]

218. As the son of two teachers who also attended public school K-12,

I will attest to the fact that longevity does not make you a good teacher. Plenty of shitty teachers skated by because they had tenure.

[EFerrari]

23. I did read the OP. Not only does it assume these so called effectiveness reports

measure effetiveness, but it also assumes that there is a teacher problem.

We don't have a teacher problem. We have a funding problem.

When we funded our schools, they were among the best in the world. We don't fund the schools, things go badly. How is that a problem with teachers?

[mzteris]

42. i think maybe he had a lot of poor teachers.

evidently. . .

[EFerrari]

55. That's "she", speaking of reading comprehension. n/t

[MineralMan]

85. Never mind...wrong post.

[mzteris]

141. I don't read minds!

No where do you state that you're a "she" in that post.

[MineralMan]

169. See, you're supposed to either know that or to click on the profile

to find that out. It's entirely your fault that you don't know the poster's gender. Shame on you for not knowing that. :sarcasm:

[mzteris]

183. i wasn't interested enough

in them to click on their profile. . . sorry!

[MineralMan]

192. I understand. I usually don't click on profiles.

Sometimes I make a gender error in my pronouns, too, depending on whether the screen name makes it obvious or not. Mostly, I'm not that interested in a poster's personal details. I end up writing a lot of he/she and his/her stuff in replies, unless I forget.

There are a few posters who take this indifference to personal information as an insult. In those cases, I'll take the time to go read their profiles. You've done absolutely nothing wrong. Hence my :sarcasm:.

[tinymontgomery]

236. Maybe if the parents

actually came to the school to meet the teachers and find out what their kids were up to it would improve both the teacher, student and the parent.

[SoxFan]

9. Read the OP, please

[EFerrari]

25. Why don't you try reading the OP? Thanks!

[Joe Fields]

75. overly sensitive today?

[EFerrari]

82. Do you also think teachers are burger flippers?

:)

[Joe Fields]

93. I have known of many who would be better suited to flipping burgers.

I would not say a large percentage.

[Hannah Bell]

107. you still haven't posted your personnel file

[Joe Fields]

234. Sorry, but you just don't rate.

However, if tomorrow the Missouri Health department began posting evaluations of the managers of a certain restaurant chain, I, for one would have no problem with it. Just do your job as you are told to do it, to the best of your ability and there is no problem.

[LanternWaste]

197. Most people still claim to have "made" an A

"I have known of many who would be better suited to flipping burgers...."

I imagine many students (and ex-students) feel that way about the teachers they had in classes which did not hold their interest.

It appears that many people still claim today to have "made" an A, whilst "receiving" an F; we just do it on a different level these days.

[dionysus]

43. he didn't even remotely imply ANY of that. what the hell?

[EFerrari]

65. His premise is that education is a product, as if teachers are burger flippers.

The education you got was determined by a lot of things, teachers being only one (1) of them.

[dionysus]

68. he just pointed out there's both good and bad teachers. i had several wonderful ones. also some that

really sucked.

:shrug:

[EFerrari]

71. But your (or my) subjective experience of a teacher

is not a measure of that teacher's effectiveness and it doesn't speak to the state of our school system. It's a fine topic if you want to talk about subjective experience. I like to talk about my teachers, too.

But it doesn't speak intelligently to the issue of excellence in education because education is not a product made by teachers and our experience of teachers is not a reliable measure of their effectiveness any more than high stakes test scores are. :shrug:

[Joe Fields]

77. and your premise is that there are no bad teachers, and

that they shouldn't be held up to the light for scrutiny?

[EFerrari]

79. Could you show what gives you that impression? n/t

[MineralMan]

84. Education is a product, one provided by professionals.

And you're right; there are many factors that determine the quality of that product. I'm trying to discuss one of those factors. That does not mean that I don't recognize the others. I could also talk about school administrators, but that's not the subject of this OP. I could talk about parental responsibility, but that, also, is not the topic of this OP.

Education is a product...a crucial one. The consumers of that product need more information than they now get, so they can make informed decisions. Some parents, obviously, won't bother. Others, however, will bother. They should have information to help guide them. From what I can see, that information is lacking, and it would be good to find a way to provide more to the consumers of education.

Many parents, right now, aren't pleased with the quality of the product. They're responding by voting No on school tax measures. That's terrible, since our schools definitely need better funding. Complaining about their votes isn't the answer. They are the consumers, and will do as they think best in that regard.

Yes, there are many factors. Teacher quality is one of them.

[EFerrari]

87. No, education is not a product provided by professionals.

Education is a process that requires the contribution of students, family, and community as well as teachers, administrators and schools.

[MineralMan]

117. It is a product. It has clearly defined goals to be met.

Schools do not educate. People do. Both teachers and administrators are professionals. Students are not. Parents are not. The community, except for the parents, is generally not connected, except through paying taxes.

Saying that education is not a product is simply not accurate. The product to be delivered is an 18-year-old who has learned what is expected of a high school graduate. Naturally, individual intellectual abilities are the limits. The parents deliver their children to the school, and should, of course, encourage a proper eagerness for learning in their children. If they do not, the school is still supposed to deliver that reasonably well-educated 18-year-old.

The only professionals in this equation are the administrators and teachers. Their job is to do the educating. They are responsible for the overall delivery of that product.

It remains my belief that parents and students have a right to some information regarding the quality of those who provide those services and produce that product...the graduate. You feel differently, I guess.

If the professionals do not provide that information, it will come in some other way. The Angie's List example comes to mind. Perhaps it's time for an Angie's list for schools. Both praise and criticism would be part of it, from the ultimate consumers of the product. In some ways, I'm surprised this has not already happened. I expect it to, and shortly.

So, it's up to the educational professionals to figure out some means of accountability, I think. What form that might take is the reason I posted this thread. So far, I've heard few suggestions...mostly a rejection of the entire concept of accountability. That will not work. The community is going to insist on it. I don't like using standardized test results as the method. Neither do school administrators and teachers. So, coming up with a preferable method, I think, would be a very good idea right about now. Failing that, the community and parents will come up with their own method, probably following the model of Angie's List. If that's not what you want, then I suggest you suggest an alternative.

One way or another, the time for accountability is here. Simply damning the standardized testing method is not enough. Finding an equitable alternative is what is needed.

Whether or not you like my idea is irrelevant. You're more than welcome to say you don't like it, as this thread demonstrates. But simply not liking something does not answer the question, which is about finding an equitable and fair way to rate schools, administrators, and teachers. The community is not amused, and failing a mechanism set up by the professionals themselves, the community will handle it themselves.

[EFerrari]

132. You have a basic misunderstanding of what an education is

and how it happens or how it has been measured since we had a public schools system. That is clear and it has nothing to do with what I personally like.

Educators in this country have always been accountable to their communities and their performance has always been measured. Accountability is not a new idea and the community has always "handled it".

lol

[no_hypocrisy]

2. I had a terrible English teacher during my junior year in HS.

She gave me "A"s b/c my mother was president of the Board of Education. Because of my unearned merit, when I entered English 101 freshman year in college, I received D-minuses, duly earned. It took me years to earn how to organize my concepts and to write efficiently. This teacher would have survived the scrutiny based on the grades she gave. At the time, yes, I DID like the high marks, but in retrospect, I lost as a student.

[indepat]

12. Very similar experience back in '51: great teacher when she was in the classroom which was rarely

because she was the senior sponsor and those ancillary activities took 90 or so percent of her time. English 101 as a college freshman was a rude awakening indeed for the same reasons you list. :)

[MineralMan]

13. There are many ways a teacher can fail as an educator.

None of them are measured simply by comparing test scores or other common parameters. It is much more complex than that, which is why I wrote this OP. I'm asking for suggestions about how parents and students can have some idea about individual teachers' skills and dedication. Parents aren't sitting in the classroom, and children are poorly-equipped to evaluate adults, through lack of experience. Yet, both are the consumers of the educational system.

Consumers have the right to know something about the quality of the schools where they send their children each day, and of the abilities of the providers of the services schools offer.

[no_hypocrisy]

16. Reflecting on my experience, I reiterate: I would have rated my English teacher

well because of my mercenary pay-off of stellar grades which added to my GPA which got me into a good college. My parents certainly would have given her a thumbs-up.

A notable amount of valid complaints would come from those students receiving mediocre grades to failing grades. And would they be recognized appropriately?

[MineralMan]

19. There are many ways that education fails. Your story illustrates

one of them. Student evaluations, alone, are not something that can be used, nor are parent evaluations, since parents rarely experience the classrooms their children attend. This is why the problem is not a simple one. I still maintain, though, that some form of public accountability is needed.

[Arkana]

224. My 9th and 10th grade English teachers were horrible.

9th grade we had this guy who I know now was a closeted gay dude, but he apparently hid it by being the meanest, most caustic motherfucker on the face of the earth. He'd make us read these supremely depressing books and then give us grad-school level quizzes. He'd hammer us on exams with the most difficult, abstract questions he could think of--and when he graded them, he never looked for content. That fuckknob gave me a 75 on an otherwise perfect paper because I forgot to put PAGE NUMBERS ON IT. If it's possible for a man to be bitchy, this guy had it down to a science.

10th grade I got this woman who hated me and all the other guys in my class--Honors English, so guys must not belong there amirite?

10th grade History was this woman who defined herself entirely on what men thought of her. She didn't know her subject and had been giving the same book tests for 10 years. My friends and I actually contemplated taking away her teachers' edition to see what would happen. Our guess was she'd have a meltdown.

In addition, she once accused me of plagiarism without any evidence to support her case. Her complaint? That I had used the word "mottled". That's too advanced a word for an Honors World History student, apparently! :sarcasm:


The worst thing about these three shitheels is that they had all been in the system 20+ years. Don't tell me that practice makes perfect, because with teachers it does not always apply.

[MadHound]

4. Teachers are already assessed in a number of ways,

And getting rid of a bad teacher is much less difficult that a lot of people try to make out. Despite the much repeated mantra that teacher's unions keep bad teachers in the classroom, the truth is that all unions can do and have done is insure that the teacher gets a (nominally) fair hearing before being terminated.

As far as making teacher evaluations available to the public, would you really want your evaluation posted online for the world to see? Furthermore, what is this public scrutiny going to do to actually help education?

What is really needed to help education is the one thing that so many policy makers seem unwilling to do, fully fund our public schools. Until that happens, everything else that is done is nothing more than a band aid, a publicity stunt, a political fix, not a real fix.

If you want high quality public education in this country, then you have to pay for it. It's that simple.

[MineralMan]

5. So, you never experienced a bad teacher who had been around

for a long time? I don't believe that.

I'm not suggesting that these numbers be used as a means of public teacher rating. I think that's a very poor measure. I'm suggesting that some way to help parents and students recognize excellent teachers and identify poor ones is needed. What that method might be is what I'm hoping to discuss in this thread.

[MadHound]

7. As I said, there are already mechanisms in place to do just that,

Yet those methods are discredited and dismissed, both by politicians and those with other motives.

As a first year teacher, if I were teaching, I would have to reach certain benchmarks, and would have to meet certain other criteria each and every single year that I taught. If I don't, I'm out of a job.

Teachers are recognized, whether they're good teachers or bad ones. They are dealt with appropriately. Making these evaluations public would serve no purpose other than to strip teachers of any right to privacy. Would you accept that in your job?

[MineralMan]

10. If I were engaged in a profession where the responsibility

was to provide service to children, then yes, I would accept and want some form of public rating of my services. Since I'd be dedicated to doing the best job I could, I'd expect my ratings to be high, and would be encouraged by those ratings to strive for excellence.

In my job, which has always been writing about one subject or another for publication, my work has always been right there in public view, so I was constantly being rated by my readers, along with my publishers, who ran constant, detailed surveys of their subscribers. Readers were not shy about telling me when I had done a poor job, and that stimulated me to work even harder. So, yes, I would accept public accountability. I've done so all my life.

Teaching is done more or less privately. Children, especially young children, do not have knowledge of what they should expect, and often cannot communicate the reasons for a poor educational experience to their parents. So, yes, I believe some sort of public accountability is appropriate. I do not believe it should be based on some numerical data. That isn't appropriate or helpful.

[femmocrat]

24. That is a misconception.

Teaching is not done "privately". Teachers today work in teams, collaborate, team-teach, etc., etc. The old notion of the self-contained classroom is passe, at least in elementary and middle school.

With all the communication between the school and home, if the parents do not know their child is having difficulty, it is the parents' fault for not paying attention, attending conferences, returning phone calls, signing progress reports, and so on.

Way too many parents are disengaged and regard the schools as free baby-sitting service. Ask any teacher about parent communications and expect to hear our side of this problem.

And young children are quick to go home with "tales" that are misconstrued by parents who will storm into the principal's office on the word of a child, instead of first calling the teacher.

[MadHound]

27. "Teaching is done more or less privately." HAH! HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

It becomes increasingly obvious that you aren't a teacher, have had very little contact with teachers, or education in general, and haven't a clue as to what you're talking about.

Do you realize the numerous ways teacher's are evaluated? Class sessions filmed, observed, written up. Principles, parents, and who knows who else in the classroom. Some classrooms are being taped full time now. And when a parent gets involved, for whatever reason, look out, you could be in for a world of hurt. Meticulous paperwork is kept, every single day. Teachers are constantly reviewed by professionals in the field

Part of the problem is that public education has too many people who have no teaching experience making decisions vital to a school system. Pay raises and budget hikes are thrown into the public and political arena for all to debate. Worse yet, those monetary matters require a super majority to get passed. Policy makers, politicians, and the public at large think that they can make school policy simply because they went to school, not because they're trained professionals. The fact of the matter is that the reason public education is having problems is due, in large part, to allowing non-professionals make the decisions.

There is one, and only one solution to education today, fully fund it. You can try to take short cuts, you can demean teachers all you want, you can come up with half ass "solution" after half ass "solution", but until you start fully funding education, paying teachers what they're worth instead of what you want to give them, insuring quality facilities for all schools, until you start doing this, our education system is not going to improve. Finland and Japan learned this lesson, and they are the top two education systems in the world. When will we finally learn this lesson?

[EFerrari]

33. Teachers are constantly rated by their students and their parents,

by their peers and by their administrators.

[tinymontgomery]

240. Maybe they were only crappy to you

some times other student think that teacher was great. So the decision should be based on one students complaint?

[Joe Fields]

78. If you do a good job you have nothing to worry about.

[MadHound]

91. Spoken like somebody who isn't in the profession and who has no clue as to what goes on.

First of all, part of whether or not you do a good job is determined at the beginning of the year when they assign kids to classrooms. If you get a preponderance of kids with special needs and/or behavioral problems, you're probably not going to doing as well as you could overall because your time and energy is taken up by student problems, adaptations and considerations.

For instance, last year I taught middle school Civics. My classes were great, except for one in which the administration, in its infinite wisdom, decided to put a number of documented behavior problems and special needs students. Better yet, this was the last class period of the day, so the kids were already wired for sound already. I went through hell with that class, trying to keep them on track and on assignment. Was I successful, perhaps, but it certainly wasn't my best work simply because I was far too overloaded in that single class.

Furthermore, teachers are already assessed, in a number of ways by a number of different people. Why should they be subjected to assessment based on the failed model of standardized testing. Oh, and why should a teacher have their privacy invaded by making their assessments public knowledge. That attitude of "If you do a good job you have nothing to worry about." is so much horseshit, on par with those folks who defend wiretapping and such by saying "If you're doing nothing wrong, you have nothing to fear." Same lame argument.

If this is OK with you, tell you what, can we put your evaluations up on a website for the whole world to see? Of course you'll say "sure," simply because you know that's not going to happen. So you don't need to answer me here, what you need to do is answer this question yourself, personally. I suspect that if it was your job, your evaluations on the line, I seriously doubt that you would want public exposure.

[Joe Fields]

96. spoken like someone opposed to any assessment at all. roflmao

[MadHound]

97. No, actually what I'm opposed to is twofold,

First, teacher assessments based on student's standardized test, virtually every professional in the educational field recognizes what a disaster standardized tests are.

Second of all, I oppose making my personal evaluations public. In fact no matter the profession, I doubt that you would find many people who are up for that kind of privacy invasion and humiliation.

But hey, continue to ass u me things, it's what you're good at:eyes:

[JuniperLea]

108. I do a self review every six months...

And I'm reviewed by the Managing Director of our office... I would gladly post my reviews publicly.

[MadHound]

109. Well then, you are probably in the minority

And frankly your reviews sound miniscule in comparison to teachers' evaluation.

Tell you what, if you're so hot to post performance evaluations, then why don't you start. You can post yours here, now. Put some action in back of your words.

[JuniperLea]

118. How did you extrapolate...

"your reviews sound miniscule in comparison to teachers' evaluation" when I never once described the review process?

Very telling, indeed.

In what way would you suggest I post them so that you don't claim I ginned them up? I'm not going to bother otherwise.

[MadHound]

122. Gee, I wish I could do self reviews,

With only my district manager doing the other reviews. Instead, as a teacher I am reviewed by my principle, my department head, the district department head, the superintendent's office, the school board, and on an informal basis, the public at large. Not to mention both state and federal agencies, my union, and the professional organization that I belong to.

As far as your evals go, just scan them in, make sure they have the company logo, your name, address and social security number. After all, that's what's on teacher evals.

[femmocrat]

6. With all due respect, there are good and bad apples in every profession.

Everyone has had a lousy teacher or professor in their lifetimes. How you overcame the experience (e.g., writing a book) is a testament to that teacher's effect of motivating you and your growth as a person.

I have had terrible dentists and doctors. I know there are plenty of terrible lawyers. Where is the public outcry about these professions?

I am sick to death of everyone and their brother-in-law assuming that they know more about how to run schools better than the professional educators do. Now they want non-educators to evaluate teachers--- would they send in an accountant to monitor a pediatrician or an orthodontist?

Truthfully, there are far fewer poor teachers today due to the demands of the job. There is high turnover among new teachers because they can't hack it, or decide it's not for them. So why do these "experts" want to get rid of veteran teachers and hire inexperienced people, some without certification? MONEY.

Experienced teachers who have been in the trenches are handling their responsibilities just fine for the most part. Back off, already!
(Not you, MineralMan--- I mean the "critics".) :)

[SoxFan]

14. Lawyers have rigid professional standards

Along with a formal, state-sanctioned disciplinary process.

http://nhattyreg.org/

http://www.courts.state.nh.us/rules/pcon/

http://www.courts.state.nh.us/rules/scr/scr-37a.htm

http://www.nh.gov/gal/complaints.htm

http://www.ajs.org/ethics/eth_fed-jud-conduct.asp

http://www.ajs.org/ethics/pdfs/ABA2007modelcodeasapproved.pdf

http://www.canb.uscourts.gov/code-conduct-judicial-employees

[femmocrat]

26. As do teachers. n/t

[SoxFan]

29. Not even close

It's much easier to file a complaint against a lawyer, and your complaint has a much greater chance of being taken seriously. The typical parent who complains to the school or district is going to get a finger-wagging lecture about being "disruptive" or "not understanding how the classroom works".

[MadHound]

32. Oh bullshit.

As a teacher I answer to parents, administrators, members of the school board, my union, my professional organization, along with local, state and national standards. I file a complaint against a lawyer, and it might, if I'm lucky, and pushy, get to the level of a state bar review. If a teacher has a complaint filed against them, at least four different people and three different agencies are called in.

[femmocrat]

35. Not true.

I cannot speak for every district or administrator, but in our district, parental complaints are taken very seriously. The teacher is called in to the principal's office, and after fact-finding, can be disciplined in various ways or even suspended without pay. More serious allegations will follow a process of hearings, etc. That is usually when the union and the lawyers get involved.

Our state has a process by which teacher licenses can be revoked, however I don't have a dozen links like you do. Fortunately, I have never needed to check out that scenario, but those names are published.

[proud2BlibKansan]

39. That's a load

And I suspect you know it.

[Smarmie Doofus]

89. good grief. nt

[Forkboy]

104. That's just fucking dumb.

[YvonneCa]

155. That's about POWER, not about the...

...professional standards or process in place. Lawyers can and will SUE...most people take that seriously. Teachers' power is systematically being diminished as we speak. That doesn't mean there are no professional standards.

[Arkana]

226. Not necessarily.

At least not where I am. Thankfully, I live in New England, so the complaints aren't about biology class or sex ed. It's just asshole parents in general who think their children are unique and precious snowflakes and ARGH HOW DARE YOU GIVE JOHNNY AN F.

[EFerrari]

28. Right. And that's why there are no bad or crooked lawyers.

[YvonneCa]

151. As do...

...teachers.

[NYC_SKP]

8. The truth is that willing applicants are often hard to find, and...

...among that number of people even willing to step into a classroom every day with 30+ differentiated students (and their often very difficult parents), not every last one of them has the skills to consistently motivate and teach them.

Add to that the horrors of administrators and bureaucracy, and the lack of funds for even the most basic supplies.

Among the thousands of teachers I've worked with, by far most are excellent at the motivation and classroom management piece.

And when their content knowledge may be lacking, they find ways to improve (usually on their own time and their own dime) and go back into the classroom prepared.

There are, however, a few (as in any profession) who maybe just aren't going to do well in their assignment or, worse, in education period.

If there aren't means in place to find better assignments for these few, what are we to do.

By the time meaningful reform can take place given the inertia of the institution, an entire generation is lost.

This is why I support, in conjunction with reforms (like SLCs- small learning communities or academies) within traditional schools, responsible run public charter schools.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I loath the broadbrushing by many of all teachers as lazy, summers off, slackers, but also any suggestion that all teachers are sacred. No, some are dreadful.

I also loath the broadbrushing by many that the institution of public schools must not be mucked with or challenged by alternatives, like public charter schools.

The misinformation posted daily regarding these matters is frightening.

Under current conditions in most cities, changes in the educational model can not happen fast enough to catch up to students' needs, much less get to the place where it needs to be.

Cheers.

:patriot:

[MineralMan]

17. Thanks for your post. That's what I'm looking for here.

Obviously, there are problems that need to be dealt with. So discussion seems appropriate as a means to try to find possible solutions.

[LeftishBrit]

11. I'm not sure there really is an adequate method...

Using standardized test scores just encourages teaching-to-the-test, as well as encouraging teachers and schools to reject pupils who have special needs and are likely to do poorly in school. It may also lead to excessive and punitive pressure being put on pupils. (Many people believe that the poor teacher-pupil relationships and excessive use of corporal punishment, that were features of 19th-century British education, were in part due to the stressed teachers trying literally to whip children into doing well on tests which could affect their own bread-and-butter, during the Payment by Results period.)

Having the headteachers make the decisions - as does in practice happen with regard to promotion - is probably better, as the headteacher knows local needs and conditions. However, it is open to serious abuse if a headteacher is a bully, open to flattery, or just plain incompetent.

Use of ratings by parents or pupils is also open to abuse: Johnny and Susie may simply give high ratings to those teachers who have given them good marks; Mr. and Mrs. Smith may in some communities give low ratings to those who follow the 'wrong' religion or political party.

[MineralMan]

15. It is, indeed, complicated.

I don't like using the results of standardized test score to rate teachers, either. I also don't like having no public accountability for these crucial service providers. There's precious little consumer information available about public education, and that's not right, either.

[LeFleur1]

20. Measuring Teacher Performance by Standardized Tests

Using standardized test scores just encourages teaching-to-the-test.

A teacher told me there are rules to testing. One rule is that the children are not to be 'helped' during a test. They are not to be told words, etc.

So...if every student is tested by the same test givers, perhaps the tests would be valid. BUT if tests are given by a school full of different teachers, how could that be valid? Some might walk down the aisle telling stumped children the words. Some might note a mistake, point to it and say, "Try again." Some might follow the rules stringently. Get the idea?

The tests might be standardized but the test givers are not.

[femmocrat]

49. That does not happen in our building.

Prior to testing, we all meet with the principal and the guidance counselor to go over the "rules" (actually a book published by the state). Everyone is aware of the rigid procedures and is on the same page. We all sign a pledge that we have attended the training and that we will follow the mandatory procedures. Security is extremely tight during test week as to the location of testing materials and who is monitoring in the rooms and halls.

We are under constant threat of being audited by "the state", so there are no variations. Our faculty takes this VERY seriously! :scared:

[Arkana]

228. This is an absolute no-no.

You cannot judge teacher performance based on a standardized test any more than you can qualitatively judge their performance based on the grades their students get.

[proud2BlibKansan]

18. We've had enough stories about bad teachers here; DU should put them all in a book.

The biggest problem is that we can't fairly measure teacher effectiveness. Also there are so many factors that impact student learning; holding the teacher alone accountable is simplistic and unfair.

I also strongly oppose what the LA Times did because teachers are already being beat up enough in the media. How long before some lunatic with a gun and a grudge on his 3rd grade teacher visits a school? They aren't very secure.

[MineralMan]

30. That's why I gave an example of both...

Now, I had no idea about either teacher until I sat in their classroom. Certainly, my parents had no idea. Even in the early 1960s, I could have chosen the order of my classes and, thus, the teacher. But, I had no information. My parents had no information. So, it was something of a crapshoot. In one case, the teacher was superb. In the other, the teacher was abysmal.

To hold that the consumers of education should not be informed seems wrong to me. How they should be informed is the question I'm raising. Obviously, simple test score data is not the way to go. It might be useful when entire schools are rated, as they are regularly. But for individual teachers, those numbers are not useful.

I do believe, however, that the consumers of education need some way of recognizing individual teacher quality. What that way is, though, is open to discussion. I do not know how best to do this.

[proud2BlibKansan]

45. If you think parents should be able to choose their child's teachers,

then I want to be able to choose my students.

[MineralMan]

70. In many places, parents are allowed to choose their teachers.

They're often allowed to choose the schools they send their children to, as well. In Saint Paul, MN, we have open enrollment. Parents can select the school their child will attend, and students are assigned to that school, based on the school's capacity.

As I said, even when I was in high school in the early 1960s in a small town, I could have chosen many of my teachers, simply by arranging my class schedule. It was a choice we all could make.

The problem was that there was no information, and still isn't, except by word of mouth. And when just students rate teachers, that information is not always reliable. But that's all we had.

[zipplewrath]

22. Good and bad are a function of the student

I had 4 brothers and 2 sisters. We all "shared" teachers over the years. We each came away with different perceptions of the same teachers. Ones favorite was considered "bad" by another. The reality is that perceptions of teachers will be a strong function of the student, not the teacher. Any reports on the teachers will tend to be heavily influenced by the students they are assigned. And a teacher hoping for good assessments will be wise to avoid difficult students.

There is a team building exercise that is conducted occasionally for team leaders. It has to do with appraisal of employees. They are each given a container filled with different color marbles. They are also given a paddle, that when inserted into the container, will draw out a collection of marbles. They can't see in the container and all they can do is insert the paddle.

It is explained that their "job" is to extract blue marbles. They all start shoving in their paddles and some get more blue marbles than others. The ones getting the most are praised and rewarded. The ones that produce the least are scolded for "not trying hard enough". Over time, those that were excelling will often start to "fail" and then they'll be scolded for "slacking" or "resting on their laurels". In some versions, they are in "teams" and a "team leader" is similarly rewarded for "improving the team" when there are increases in blue marble collection.

Of course the exercise is intended to be openly absurd. No one knows why some people pull out more blue marbles than others. In some cases, the trainers later openly admit that they put different numbers of blue marbles in the containers to ensure that some do better than others. But as the exercise progresses, they get out most of the blue ones and there are few left to get so their performance "declines". Trainers report students putting their blue ones back in so they have better chances of re-extracting them and being rewarded again for extracting them. Students start checking
the paddle before they fully extract it, or just don't score bad extractions.

But the overall lesson for leaders is to ensure that you are measuring the actual contribution and effectiveness of the team member, not just randomly rewarding people who produce arbitrarily defined measures of success.

School teachers are often placed in these categories, randomly assigned students to their classes and then being judge on statistically insignificant samples. A teacher I knew personally, had taken to checking on who was being "dumped" in their classes at the end of the previous year and working to "dump" them in someone else's. She was trying to ensure that only kids who already had demonstrated a desire to learn, especially in the subject area she was teaching, were getting in.

Is she being a good teacher? Is the administrator who is "dumping" students in her specialty class being a good administrator?

[EFerrari]

38. The focus on teachers alone, out of all the elements that contribute

to the public school setting is transparently ridiculous.

[zipplewrath]

40. And probably on one of the "lesser" influences

I had some good teachers, but I was a very willing student. I had all manner of advantages and save a few teachers who were in a strategic position to help me, none particularly advanced me beyond where I would have gotten anyways. Most just made it more, or less, enjoyable to be in their class.

[proud2BlibKansan]

52. When I went to my grade school reunion

I was stunned to learn of the teachers I loved who were hated by some classmates. Even my siblings and I disagree on this. The very best teacher I had in elementary school is despised to this day by my sister.

This is obviously far from an exact science.

[zipplewrath]

62. Numerous

I've got numerous similar tales. A sister that reveres a teacher that I wouldn't throw a life vest if they were drowning. Teachers I thought were brilliant, others found dull as drying paint.

A reality that extends beyond teachers, to almost any adult we knew as children, is that we saw them through childrens eyes. We may be adults now, but our memories are still those of a child. Furthermore, we "knew" them for maybe 3 - 5 years. Very few teachers do we know for anymore than a year or two. Other adults we might know longer. But even with our parents, we "know" them in any concious sense for maybe 5 years, as teenagers. Our preteen memories are often vague and broken. And our late teen and adult years involve little regular contact for many of us. And they are busily attempting to "manage" your perception of them, possibly by hiding events in their own lives, or soft peddling them when they do get exposed (marriage troubles, employment difficulties, etc.).

A simple exercise for any of us who are older than about 40 is, think of various 5 year periods in our own adult lives, and consider what people would think we are like now, or would judge our whole life based upon those 5 years. Would you like that? Would it be accurate? And if the person judging was 12 - 17 at the time, how harsh could such a perception be?

[bluestateguy]

36. You tocuhed the the rail

There are no bad teachers at all. The teachers union said so.

[dionysus]

44. yup. all saints. every last one of them.

[Joe Fields]

80. yup, not even a mediocre one in the bunch

[proud2BlibKansan]

47. When? Got a link?

[EFerrari]

60. That's pretty much your failure of logic

not what anyone here is saying.

[CBR]

130. Exactly. Don't suggest changes or you HATE teachers.

It is really absurd. I love how everyone also assumes that persons who suggest changes know nothing about the profession. It is laughable.

[MadHound]

135. So what, exactly, do you know about education?

Can you line out for me what Gardeners MI theory is? How about Bloom's taxonomy? Do you know how to write out a lesson plan, if so, name all the components of a good lesson plan. How about classroom management, what are some of the latest practices and theories.

These are some easy questions, and highly relevant ones. Let's see how well you walk the walk.

[CBR]

140. ...

First, my husband (who I was referencing) is a teacher. He teaches Pre-K (he is certified birth - 2nd). He teaches at a lab school on a public university campus.
Second, I am a doctoral candidate training to be a college professor. In my last year, writing my dissertation. I work with Bloom's (analyze, evaluate, synthesize and all that). My lesson plans are obviously different and not really lesson plans. So, I do not know the answer to that question.

I guess I hate my husband with a passion. I think I will go insult him right fucking now. He complains about the bad teachers at his job all the time; says they need to do their jobs.

So have it, keep yelling about how we all hate teachers. I would love to know how much you know about my profession and field (Public Policy). I am sure you have alot of opinions on it despite not knowing anything about it.

[MadHound]

143. So, you would find it a disaster if I interfered with your field, public policy,

So why do so many find it acceptable for people with no training in the field of education, including the president and ed sec, to constantly interfere? We don't do this with other public sector employees, people don't presume to tell firefighters, administrators, power plant operators how to do their job, so why do we allow this to happen with education and teachers?

I'm not saying that you hate teachers, what I am saying is that you are too uninformed to make many, if any legitimate criticisms or propose solutions. Yet this is how we run public education, letting anybody, no matter their background, no matter their knowledge level, make decisions that effect hundreds, thousands, millions of students. What other field of endeavor is this considered accepted practice?

Glad you know about Bloom's, always handy in college. Make sure you brush up on Gardener's MI, it's vital in reaching and teaching students. But there is much more to teaching younger children than those three topics. So again, it comes down to a knowledge issue, namely that we need to let those who know the field of education start actually making education policy on all levels of government, rather than leaving our education policy in the hands of politicians and the public at large.

[EFerrari]

160. Speaking of assumptions, you do know that it is possible to talk about education

and about improvements to our system without vilifying teachers, right? Because if you don't, then the laughability factor turns right back in your direction.

[CBR]

199. I am actively on DU trying to vilify my husband. You got me EFerrari...

you got me.

[EFerrari]

209. Which basically evades the question but, that's fine. n/t

[CBR]

220. Great. Glad you see it my way. Have a good one. nt

[LanternWaste]

200. I imagine the corollary is also true...

"There are no bad teachers at all."

I imagine the corollary is also true-- one might just as sarcastically state there are no bad students, or no uncaring parents because (insert vilified Authoritarian figure here) says so.

[sandnsea]

37. A simple measure of progress at the district office

I think a simple measure of where kids were when they entered a class, and where they were when the left the class, could be held at the district office. I got my kids' percentile test scores every year. They can keep a measure of progress at the district office for parents who want it. It's wrong to publish it in the paper, or even send it out the way they do school scores.

[david13]

56. You make a good point. There are good and bad teachers.

And bad teachers should go and do something else. But that's true in all jobs, and the union concept runs directly contrary to that idea.
dc

[janx]

59. "the union concept runs directly contrary to that idea"

But it doesn't have to, does it? Didn't I read something recently about a teacher's union working with the administration?

[david13]

245. Of course it doesn't have to. Tell that to the union. If the union was

working with the administration on anything, it was quite likely not, n o t to get rid of bad teachers, for the union to lose members.
It doesn't have to, but it has historically done so.
dc

[EFerrari]

64. There are also good and bad students, parents and principals

and obscenely underfunded schools. The union can't compensate for those. On balance, we need stronger teachers' unions just to stay even.

[david13]

244. It isn't the purpose of the union to compensate for those. The bad

students get bad grades, don't get into college, don't get into graduate school, and end up working at McDonalds, if they are lucky.
The bad teachers just keep on bad teaching.
The general union concept is to get more money for less work. Every year. Not to lose members.
dc

[lumberjack_jeff]

58. The teacher that insulted you inspired you as well.

Why else would you remember that event so well that you'd send him a personally signed "am not" book.

We have forgotten the value of the challenge.

[MineralMan]

74. Actually, he didnt. I was devastated by his comment.

As would be most 15 year olds. I got over it. I learned despite of it. Not everyone would have. There was no inspiration intended or received in his comment. It was pure malice on his part.

I told my parents what he said to me, and my father had a little talk with him about it. The result of that talk was that he completely ignored me for the rest of that school year, which was fine with me. He wouldn't even look at me in class. My father was a very convincing man.

[lumberjack_jeff]

95. A teacher once told a 16 yo friend - in class - "you're never gonna amount to a pile o' shit."

Jesse replied "fuck you <teachers name>". :rofl:

That was 30 years ago, and in my opinion, Jesse was consciously or subconsciously motivated by that. As Nietzsche said "that which doesn't kill a man makes him stronger". Not every insult causes harm and when I look at the young men of my sons age, I think they could benefit from some wakeup calls.

[EFerrari]

124. I had a teacher in college that refused to take me seriously

in any way and he was a gatekeeper in my major. Not to mention, my villain of the year. After I went into the grad program, we slowly came to appreciate each other and one of my best experiences was working as his assistant. We never said out loud, "Gee, I was wrong about you and you were wrong about me" but we both knew it. It was hilarious. lol

[DirkGently]

61. One way to get good teachers might be to ... I dunno, PAY THEM

a competitive wage? The students-as-widgets proposals we are seeing currently have nothing to do with improving the schools and everything to do with beating down teachers to make them shut up and behave like low-level factory workers.

I think truly "bad" teachers are revealed pretty quickly by their peers and remain working, if at all, simply because no one else is willing to subject themselves to what is becoming an unrespected, dead-end job. Judging teachers on arbitrary ratings numbers seems like it would only exacerbate the problem.

[Angry Dragon]

170. "low-level factory workers"

Such a broad stroke............
So factory workers are just scum to you??
How very kind of you.
Perhaps there might even be some factory workers that care about the job they do so the product
that they are producing works, the product that you buy.

[DirkGently]

185. Teachers are not factory workers because students are not widgets.

Which is the point. I think if you'd tried to understand the post as hard as you tried to attack on an irrelevant point, you would have gotten that.

[Angry Dragon]

193. What I found offensive was

the term "low level factory workers". You could have used a different term than "low level". I took offense

Not in this post, but in others on the attack on teachers, I have stated that the present
agenda seems to be turning schools into factories.
And stated that each child is different and each learns at different speeds and have different learning styles.

[LWolf]

63. What is to be done?

Begin by instituting a system of evaluation that promotes professional learning for ALL teachers, even the best. Evaluation used as a constructive tool, rather than a weapon.

For the few that can't, or won't, demonstrate appropriately professional job performance after opportunities to improve, USE DUE PROCESS to fire them.

By "job performance," I DO NOT MEAN student test scores.

[MineralMan]

76. Yes, I don't see student test scores as a valid measure,

either. I've repeated that throughout this thread. I'm looking for some ideas on other ways to provide information to the consumers of public education. Teachers and administrators are providing a service to the public. The public is the consumer of those services. They have a right to know more about what is going on.

[LWolf]

90. What kind of information about individual

officers, firefighters, social service workers, or other public service employees are provided to the public? I'm not seeing why there has to be a public ranking of individual teachers.

I don't think of the public as "consumers." That's a business model framing, and education is not, and should not be, run on the business model. I see schools as community centers and families as partners in every aspect.

I agree that parents and students have a right to know "what's going on" when it comes to their schools, although I don't think that extends to job evaluations. In the business model you are using, employers, not customers, do the hiring, firing, and evaluating.

I DO support more transparency, and a bigger role for parents. I'd like to see some parents at every staff meeting. I'd like to see the School Site Council, which has parent members, be given a more active role in making site decisions. I'd like to see a committee of parents and staff do interviews and make hiring decisions. I'd like to see parents welcome on campus, to observe or participate, within guidelines that protect students and prevent any disruption.

I'd like all those things because I once worked at a public school, for a decade, that did exactly that. Empowering staff and parents to be a positive part of the school, to form positive working relationships together, results in a positive learning environment and satisfied staffs AND families.

Parents who spend time on campus know what is going on. They can see it for themselves. I think it's their responsibility to exercise their right to know more about what is going on by showing up and participating. And I think we need to welcome them.

I don't see teacher evaluation as some sort of score that allows rankings. I see teacher evaluation as part of the process of continually improving our practice. It has a constructive, not destructive, purpose.

[montanto]

72. *sigh*

You presume that the evaluations that teachers receive contain some irrefutably accurate truth. Lazy, ineffective, unconcerned, and failed teachers often enough receive glowing evaluations, while hard working, dedicated, caring, progressive teachers sometimes receive negative feedback. Some teachers are hovered over all year, every aspect of their teaching, preparation, classroom and personal appearance being considered for evaluation, while others are evaluated by "walk-by" whereby if the classroom isn't physically on fire, and the teacher has all of his clothes on, he is considered effective and worthy. Might just as well judge teachers by the feedback on ratemyteacher.com as far as I am concerned.

Many and many a time teachers here have said that teacher evaluations are also part of the problem, and I do not disagree, considering the above observation. Publishing evaluations for outsiders to consider is potentially distributing misleading information, which may further promote failed teachers and punish great teachers. Let us talk about how to properly evaluate teachers before we talk about distributing evaluations to the public.

As far as your anecdotal evidence is concerned: I, too, heard that I would never amount to anything. Many of us did. I think it's sad that an ill-conditioned teacher would say it to a child. I would not do it myself, but I have always taken that to mean, "at the rate you are going, you will never amount to anything," which is no doubt true at the time for many. Perhaps the teacher that you sent your first book to received it with delight that you had turned your act around. Perhaps that teacher even takes some oblique credit for having opened your eyes, albeit in a course and inconsiderate way. After all, do any of us solely own our successes?

Author Luis Rodriguez, when speaking to students, often holds up his novel Always Running and gives us the same evidence: " . . . and my teachers said I would never amount to anything." At the time he was under his teachers' care he was a gangster, a paint huffer, frequently under the influence of drugs and alcohol, prone to violence, crime, and self destruction. Failure was all too easy to predict. I find it just possible that being told (though no advocate of the approach) that he was bound to fail under the circumstances might just have planted the seed of desire not to. At any rate, I find it difficult to accept that failure always belongs to someone else, and success is ours alone. I find it equally difficult to believe that we, the public, can make a determination about teacher value from anecdotal evidence and potentially misleading teacher evaluations.

[MineralMan]

88. Actually, that teacher was just mean. I carried a 4.0 GPA

throughout high school. So, what was his reason for the statement? He wasn't trying to encourage me to excellence. I got plenty of that from all sides. He didn't like me for some reason that I never did figure out. So, he said a very ugly thing to me when I was 15 years old. I got over it just fine.

He was a nasty person who had a terrible attitude, for some reason. That was all there was to it. He didn't excel in the classroom, either. He taught in an off-handed way that made it clear that he wished to be anywhere but in that place.

[janx]

92. And that is the problem.

The best teachers are those who love the subject so much that they can't wait to share it with other people. Personally, I'd like to see every high school teacher with an advanced degree in his/her subject area.

[MadHound]

94. Well gee, thanks to NCLB, and various other state regs, that's what you're seeing

Within four years of getting their degree, a teacher has to start on their master's degree. If they're in secondary education, it has to be in their subject area.

Not to mention that those who are in an undergraduate education program have some of the largest number of hours to complete, in part because secondary teachers have to get what is essentially a second degree, one in education and one in their specialty. For instance I got a degree in both Middle School Education and in History, why not, by the time I was done meeting all the education requirements, all I needed to complete a history degree was to write my senior thesis.

[janx]

230. I was thinking of the other way around.

That is, a student would major in a subject and then take courses in education. One of my former students is doing just that. She's a math major--loves math--and loves teaching it. She's also a native of South Korea. She is currently involved in the master's in teaching program at the university where I teach.

After class, we often talk about teaching and about her experiences in particular. She is so inspired! She is incorporating some technology from South Korea into her teaching and into her master's in teaching. It's phenomenal. You should see her face when she tells me about these things and shows me the program she uses to help her students with math. She's aware of the goals, but she made a game that her students love that helps her--and the students--to achieve them.

"I have found my calling!" she says.

[MineralMan]

103. Many teachers have that, and that's a good thing.

They also have fairly extensive education instruction. Teaching is hard. No question about it. It's demanding and has high requirements. That's as it should be. It's also not where I'm going with this thread.

I don't know if the days are gone when the basketball coach taught College Prep Biology, but that was what my high school was like. The man didn't know as much biology as many of his students, so the class was pretty much a waste, unless you were interested enough to learn for yourself. He was, however, an excellent basketball coach.

His teaching technique for the Biology class was to read the assigned chapter of the text aloud to the class, then send us to mess around in the lab area, trying to follow the experiments in the textbook. While we were doing that, he was studying basketball strategy at the front of the class. You didn't disturb him with questions.

Now, as I said, I don't know if such things occur any longer in our schools. I certainly hope not.

[bvar22]

99. The Forces are gathering.

The Fires are being stoked.
The Drumbeat intensifies.

*Unionists
*Intellectuals (Fringe Left)
*Socialists
*Dissidents
*Homosexuals
*Teachers

[Ignis]

100. And the most important question remains unaddressed:

Cui bono?

[JuniperLea]

101. I'd like to see performance reviews...

Self review as well as supervisory review. This would include personal horn tooting... always necessary, but not always easy for many of us... and it would include personal weaknesses, goals, achievements, etc.

Describe ways in which you've engaged a challenging child or parent with their own learing... describe ways in which you've overcome the lack of parental involvement... describe ways in which you showed a child the joy of learning something new... describe ways in which you've taught a child to be self-sufficient in their own curiosity driven learning...

What about continued education for teachers?

There are thousands of great questions and suggestions... if only people would actually have a discussion instead of a pissing match.

[MadHound]

106. Umm, all teachers are require to have annual, in some cases monthly performance reviews

They are also required to pursue continuing and higher education. In fact according to NCLB, teachers are required to start on a master's degree within four years of getting their undergraduate degree.

What is at issue here is whether to make those performance reviews open to the public at large. Would you appreciate having your job evaluations made public? I don't think so, so why would you wish that on teachers?

[JuniperLea]

110. I would gladly post my performance reviews... No problem!

And did you notice I was ASKING about continued education? Did you notice I was TRYING to have a discussion? Ummm... whatever. Clearly you are unable to respond without a modicum of condescension. That is very telling.

The people that pay my salary get to see my reviews. In a public education system, I pay taxes that go toward the salary of public education teachers. Why should I not be able to review their performances when I'm paying their salaries? That makes no sense at all.

[MadHound]

116. Post 'em then, right here, right now

What, you have a problem with that?

I was answering your question, telling you what is required. If you don't like the matter in which I did so, which contained no personal insults and was not trying to be condescending, then I don't know what to tell you except perhaps you need to realize that things don't always translate so well in print on a chat board. That, and perhaps grow a thicker skin.

It is your attitude about how you pay salaries and therefore deserve to see their reviews, that is a huge part of the problem with education today. Since the public pays the taxes that go towards education, the public feels, as unqualified as they might be, that they should make critical decisions regarding education. That they can make hiring and firing decisions, they can make budget and curriculum decisions. Frankly the public has too much input into education at this point, to the detriment of our children's future.

Tell you what, why don't you also call for all the evaluations of all public employees and officials. Tell you what, why not start off with the Obama administration and work our way down.

[JuniperLea]

119. I see I've struck a nerve...

Interesting.

[MadHound]

126. No, I just want you to put your money where your mouth is.

If you are so casual about having others post private information, then you should be willing to do so yourself.

[proud2BlibKansan]

128. Okay. Post them. Then we'll talk.

I'll be out looking for a bunch of people who know nothing about your profession to give their opinions of your performance evaluations. Just PM me when you have them posted.

Thanks! :hi:

[YvonneCa]

159. Performance reviews have been my experience for over...

...24 years as a teacher. Continued education...YES...REQUIRED in my state. My credential is renewable every five years...continuing education documented for renewal.

It's amazing that people think teachers have just been skating by these past years. :shrug:

[EFerrari]

165. So, pointing out that the OP is built on a false premise

is now "a pissing match"?

Your own post is a straw man. No one is arguing against accountability and I've never met a teacher that wasn't evaluated by students, peers and self.

[Dappleganger]

111. First, let's stop using the term "Good teacher, Bad teacher."

Let's call them "Effective teachers and Ineffective teachers."

[JuniperLea]

112. Fair enough!

It's good to see a post that actually contributes to civil conversation. Bravo!

[Dappleganger]

136. It does steer the debate towards helping struggling teachers.

Granted, there ARE individuals out there who have such serious character flaws that they have no business being around children (or humans), but I think that most teachers who are struggling with their effectiveness would probably do much better if they were in a mentoring program of some kind which regularly reviews their progress.

[mzteris]

157. Good point!

I like your follow up comment, even more.

[ChoralScholar]

131. Not that I'm trying to hijack your thread, which has a very good purpose

but your story about sending a copy of your book to your English teacher reminded me of something I read.

Obviously this is not you, but it's pretty funny.

http://www.collegehumor.com/article:1805609

[MineralMan]

133. Well, my first book was not a novel. Like most of my writing

it was non-fiction, and was a book of woodworking projects. It did quite well. I was paid a flat rate for the book, which is always my preference when writing books. The royalty system isn't my cup of tea. I do the work. I get paid. If the publisher makes a pile, good for the publisher. I still get paid the same amount. It levels the playing field, from my point of view.

Most of my writing, though, was for magazines, and ranged from the woodworking and home issues to a longer period writing useful stuff for computer users at the beginning of the adoption of personal computers. I left that area of writing when PCs became commodities...just before the tech crash.

I don't even want to think about how much written material I've produced. I'd be very scared.

[JNelson6563]

137. I commend your effort to start a discussion

but apparently it's not quite black & white enough for DU. The unrec crew is out in force, too much gray area for their gray matter I reckon.

I agree with you, there are some great, some good and some crappy teachers. The crappy ones do not belong in the profession. It would be helpful if there were some way to root out the bad ones and supporting the good ones.

There are a couple of teachers that my kids had that I would love to see never allowed to go near kids again and others who should be given awards.

Julie

[MineralMan]

139. Well, I tried to start a discussion, but it never really developed.

Despite being at the top of the "Most Discussed" list in the Top Tens, there has been precious little discussion in the thread. I find that sad. I'll keep trying, though.

[JNelson6563]

142. May the gods bless you for your persistence

If for no other reason I enjoy reading your rational, well reasoned posts.

Julie

[EFerrari]

156. Where is the gray area in blaming solely teachers for the state

of American public education? Or of claiming that education is like an object you can buy at WalMart?

Good grief.

[JNelson6563]

167. I didn't read that in the OP, did you?

:shrug:

[EFerrari]

172. I did and it was confirmed later in the thread multiple times

where there OP reiterates the idea that education is a product provided to the community by professionals.

:shrug:

[MineralMan]

175. Professionals include teachers and administrators.

This thread is about teachers. Perhaps I'll write another one about administrators.

[JNelson6563]

227. Ok, schlepped through the whole thread up to here

I now realize you are very deep in a trench of a war that's going on here at DU. It's very 04 or 08 primary-like so I have not read or participated in said "war". This means I am less likely to "see" the things that aren't there in posts by "the enemy".

With that said I saw "product" in quotes deep into the thread by author of the OP, so it seemed it's more of a thing to call education. More accurately, and perhaps less offensive (though somehow I doubt it) to your tender sensibilities, one might call it a "service" from professionals I guess.

On teachers being the sole issue of what's wrong with the school system, I saw no claim of that anywhere up to this point of this (now) ridiculous thread. It is one component of the education system and certainly one worth discussing rationally. Sadly that won't be happening at DU anytime soon (apparently).

Julie

[MineralMan]

173. I never said nor implied that. Teachers are an important part of

education. Surely you'd agree with that statement. They can either enhance or diminish the quality of a child's education. The ones that diminish it are of concern. This thread is about the role of teachers in the process. I neither said nor implied that they were the only factor. They are, however, an important factor. If that were not true, anyone could be a teacher.

[EFerrari]

178. Yes, you did. Most explicityly here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=8967154&mesg_id=8968405

[grantcart]

138. I went to public k-12 and private colleges

I have two daughters, one went to a private high school and the other to a well regarded public high school.


There is no comparison to the quality of the education experience that these two went through.


And while the teachers were a significant part I think that concentrating on teachers misses the more important variable.


The private school includes only those students whose parents are highly motivated to educate their student. Public schools include a large majority of kids from families that don't really care about education. Look at what people are watching on TV. WWE is more important that Maddow.

The fundamental problem has nothing to do with teachers at all. The culture has changed and most parents don't give a damn. If you select out just the children from families that are highly motivated, irrespective of their class, and put those students in the same classroom the learning experience will dramatically change regardless of who the teacher is.

There have always been some bad teachers (and mostly good). Focusing on teachers, IMHO, is leading us down a blind alley, although improving teacher effectiveness is always a good thing.

[MadHound]

144. Thank you! n/t

[MineralMan]

145. Good points. Certainly there is a difference between selective

private schools and the general run of public schools. What's really interesting to me are the accounts of public schools that have excelled, despite the difficult conditions. There are quite a few such accounts. Perhaps that's the place we should look.

Here in Saint Paul, we have some excellent public schools and some awful ones. And I'm not talking about the charter schools, since they display the same range of excellent to awful. Saint Paul has an open enrollment policy, so parents can choose the school they think will work best for their child. Some of them are specialty schools, including a couple of language-immersion schools, and some other specialties. Some are just neighborhood schools. All of them have a mix of voluntary students and assigned students. It seems, from what I can tell from performance of entire schools, that the ones where the student body is largely made up of students whose parents chose that school seem to excel. The schools which operate primarily as default neighborhood schools for those who don't make a choice tend to do poorly.

Now, this could be due to parental involvement, or some other factors. I don't know. I also don't know how teacher selections for different schools are made within the system. I'll see if I can't find out that information.

We also have a fairly large number of charter schools. Some are doing well, but others have faltered and a few have been shut down for various reasons. Again, I can't tell you why some fail and some succeed. I don't have enough information.

[grantcart]

206. My point is that while teachers are a variable

as are clean schools and extra curricular activities, the biggest variable is the parents and the child.

If they are absorbed in watching TV and playing their computer games for 5 hours a day nothing significant is going to happen in the classroom.

Then given the fact that the teacher has to teach the entire class it means that in a class of 30 it will take only 7-8 students to drag the whole experience down.

[one_voice]

146. I've pretty much stayed out of this subject...

but here are my thoughts.

There are some outstanding teachers. I had some when I was school. I had a teacher (English) that all the students hated because she was tough and didn't take any crap. I loved her, I learned more from her than any other English teacher I had. On the other hand I had a Science teacher, who really didn't give a crap. I was absent from school the day the mid-terms were given, yet somehow I got a "C" on a test I never took. Come to find out everyone in the class passed the test, even those that didn't take it. That's a problem.

Teachers have a tough job, especially today. Kids don't show teachers respect. There was a teacher in the high school I went to that was beaten to a pulp because the students didn't like him. That's a problem. And that problem starts at home, parents have to take responsibility in their child's education.

My children for the most part had excellent teachers. If I were grading the teachers, most would have gotten excellent marks from me, a few not so much.

Part of the problem, I think is because of the lack of respect not only from students, but from parents SOME (not all) teachers "give up" and really just don't care. Add to that, their pay...teachers aren't paid enough IMO. They are an intricate part of our children's future. How much does your doctor make to make sure your child is getting what they need medically? Teachers help shape, and mold our children. Their class sizes are too large, and the schools are under funded. No one wants their taxes raised even for education. Well, you can't have it both ways.

But, teachers have to be willing to speak up about the "bad" teachers. They hurt you as much as they hurt our children. If you want us to stand up for you, then you must be willing to stand up for us, and our children.

To say there are no bad teachers simply isn't true.

I would like to see teachers have input on how to make the education system better. Retired and active alike. Also parents should be involved.

Those are my thoughts.

[MadHound]

147. One quibble,

You assume that teachers don't speak up about bad teachers, we do. The question becomes whether the administration listens. Sometimes they do, sometimes they either can't or won't. I've seen bad teachers retained in rural districts because the district couldn't afford to pay somebody else the salary it would take to move out to the country. They had to have some teacher to fill the bill, so a bad teacher stayed on, and on.

[MineralMan]

150. That raises an interesting question, I think.

I don't know how teachers are assigned in our large, very diverse public school system in Saint Paul, MN. I need to find that out. How does this work in most urban areas? Do teachers typically bid for particular schools, and is assignment based on seniority or some other system? I'm not even sure how I'd find out how the process works here in Saint Paul.

If that's the case, then I'd have great concern about a system that lets experienced teachers opt for schools like our magnet and specialty schools and opt out of the large neighborhood schools in the city. That seems like a recipe for failure, and our large public schools are, indeed, failing badly, while the smaller specialty schools seem to be doing much better.

Do you have any knowledge about how teachers are generally assigned in large school systems?

[MadHound]

182. As far as I know, the procedure is pretty much the same from place to place

A position opens up at a particular school. An applicant applies for it, and is either hired or rejected. Once you are in that school district if you want to transfer to another position within the school system you apply for it, and the best candidate is picked out from those applying.

[MineralMan]

188. So, you don't think there is any cherry-picking going on?

Interesting. As I said, I don't know the process, so thanks for your explanation. I imagine most good teachers would want to teach in the best school they could find. That might explain why the best of them end up in the specialty, smaller, or magnet schools. Those who don't make the grade end up staying at the larger inner city schools that are doing the most poorly.

Or maybe I'm not understanding what you're saying.

[LWolf]

187. A potential teacher turns in an application at the District office, and interviews

for openings at specific schools. Usually, the applicant decides which openings to interview for.

Once hired, there is a transfer process at the end of each school year for teachers who want to transfer to another school, which usually involves another interview at that school. The transfer request can be approved or denied. Outside hiring begins after the transfer process is complete.

In some cases, districts will make involuntary transfers. My district did for '01-'10; after laying off 50 people, they had to make sure that every opening would be staffed by someone "highly qualified" for that position, so they reviewed records and reassigned where there was need. My school lost 2 teachers to other schools, 4 to layoffs, and gained 4 involuntary transfers from other schools. It was an interesting year.

[MineralMan]

203. So, the best qualified teachers move to the more desirable

schools? That's what the end result sounds like. That seems like a recipe for inequality of education. Such a thing would explain the inner city schools here, compared to the schools in the outer parts of the city. I can understand why people wouldn't want to teach in troubled schools, but giving the best teachers a route to migrate away from them doesn't seem like the best practice to me, if the goal is to improve schools that are in trouble. I suppose the same plan applies to administrators, too...

[LWolf]

210. We generally work in the schools we want to work in.

It's common, when a district transfers a principal to another school, for teachers who like that principal to put in transfers to follow him or her.

Teachers, like any other employee, are going to pick the schools with the best working conditions. I'm not going to fault them, or myself, for that.

My current school is a small rural school on the outskirts of a smallish town district. We have a reputation of being the best school in the district to work in. Not because of resources, or the neighborhood. Our students are mostly poor, and the majority come from anti-intellectual families. Those students who are raised in families that don't value thinking and reading are some of the hardest to teach. We are considered one of the "best," because there is a strong atmosphere of partnership, of working together positively, and maintaining focus on students rather than funding issues, political mandates, and other things that are distractions and detractors from the goal.

I didn't know about the school's reputation when they hired me. I moved out of state to take care of family who needed me, and applied for every opening in that district that year. I got the last job open, and I was more than relieved. I didn't find out until later that there were 60-90 applicants for every opening. I'm glad I didn't know. My family was depending on me, and that would have been intimidating. The high number of applicants weren't because of pay; I took a paycut of about 35% to move here. It was because the region is considered a good place to live, and because there aren't many schools, and there is very little teacher turnover. There simply aren't that many jobs.

To get good teachers to inner-city schools, we need to make those schools places people want to be. Make sure the structure is safe and in good condition, make sure they have all the resources they need, and fully staff them. Make sure there is enough staff for adequate supervision at all times, for counseling, for athletics, for arts, for tutoring, and for anything else those students need.

A good topic for discussion might be: Why don't enough good teachers want to teach in the inner city, and what can we do to change that? How can we make those schools a place both teachers and students want to be?

The same questions can, and should, be asked for ALL schools, of course, but if inner-city schools are in worse shape, let's take a closer look.

I don't really know. I didn't grow up in a big city, and I've never taught in a city school. And I wouldn't. I don't think I could fit my chickens, sheep, and horses into life in the city. I like wide open, empty space.

So I teach in a rural school, which has it's own issues.

[proud2BlibKansan]

219. Don't know about St Paul but Minneapolis is in my union

Our contract is on our website and I would imagine you can find theirs as well. Teacher assignment is a negotiated item in most contracts.

In my district, once you are hired you are allowed to interview for available positions. Then when positions become available in the district, you are allowed to transfer according to seniority. It works much like other professions.

[one_voice]

158. Keeping ineffective teachers in place...

due to money, goes to my point that education is severely underfunded. It really boggles the mind how something so important as education isn't funded better. This isn't an area you cut corners.

Other countries don't do that. Any wonder we lag behind? We, as a country have to care more about education, and we don't. It's a second thought for many people. That's not just sad, but frightening as well.

[LWolf]

189. If you can't attract anyone to take the jobs, you have to staff classrooms anyway.

Want to attract better prospects? Offer them working conditions and pay to do so.

[MineralMan]

148. Thanks very much for replying to the thread.

Your post is what I had in mind for the thread. Sadly, there have been few such posts. So your thoughtful reply is most welcome.

I agree with most of what you said. Teaching is a tough profession. No question about it. And we most definitely need to pay good teachers better for their difficult jobs.

Again, thanks.

[one_voice]

162. Yes, this seems to be an emotional subject...

My son considered teaching as a profession. Math/Music or Art, I told him to stick with Math because the "arts" are being phased out not enough funding. Sad. I thought, still think, he would be an excellent teacher. Teaching is a noble profession IMO. Much like nursing it isn't for everyone. He's now an accounting major, don't know why he gave up the teaching idea.

I hope you get more discussion as opposed to sniping. It's a very important issue, and one that's going to take everyone to get any positive changes.

[EFerrari]

163. It's not sniping to point out that framing the "problem" in terms of teachers

is not useful.

No matter how you measure a teacher's performance, that evaluation will not revitalize a resource starved school system. It might distract you while the system is defunded and the unions are broken up but it won't educate children.

There's nothing "emotional" about pointing that out.

[one_voice]

171. Beg your pardon,

but more than once I've pointed out that underfunding the school systems is the biggest problem. Maybe emotional wasn't the right word, passionate issue; maybe fits better? And it should be, anything worth fighting for or improving requires passion and conviction.

edited...my favorite English teacher would kick my ass if she saw my grammar.

[EFerrari]

174. Let's just pretend together that our teachers don't read DU!

:rofl:

:hi:

[one_voice]

177. Good call..that's what I'm gonna do.

:toast:

[MineralMan]

176. Teachers are one, I repeat, one element in the equation.

This thread is about that element. Do you not agree that teachers play a large role in the educational process? I think they do. Therefore, it's worthwhile talking about that role. This is this OP. I could write others about administrators, parents, and students, if you'd like. I could even write one about facilities.

This thread is about teachers.

[LWolf]

191. Will you write about destructive political agendas?

My request.

[MineralMan]

202. That's too broad a topic. It needs a narrowing of focus.

Narrow the topic considerably, and I'll give it a shot, just to promote discussion.

[LWolf]

212. How about looking at the 3-decade progression of the effort to

degrade public education begun under Ronald Reagan, which has continued without interruption since? It's really a story of effective propaganda, and how it can be used to shape conventional wisdom over time.

[EFerrari]

161. Who are all these people that are saying there are no bad teachers?

I've yet to see one of them here.

[one_voice]

164. I wasn't only talking about DU...

I hear parents blaming everything on teachers, and teachers blaming everything on parents. People who do this, on both sides are wrong.

While I'm not a teacher, I have attended meetings (parents/teachers/school board)and have seen it.

I also pointed out parents need to be responsible for their child's education, SOME parents believe it's all the teachers responsibility.

I wasn't "calling out" anyone in particular, just making an observation from my experiences. And it certainly wasn't meant as a "hit" against teachers. I would think that my post would have made that clear.

[EFerrari]

168. It's sad to hear teachers and parents going at each other.

A school is, in a way, like a family. It depends on all the moving parts. Singling out one person or actor is more a symptom of stress than anything else.

[MineralMan]

179. So, what does one do when the parents aren't part of the

education equation, as happens so often these days? Does that mean that the school is not responsible for educating the child? The real consumer is the student. Circumstances vary widely with regard to parental participation, but the student remains. The student is the client. The student is the customer. What of the student who has parents who don't give a damn. Shall we simply wash our hands of that student?

[EFerrari]

184. You are ten years older than I am but I remember I first started hearing

about these bad parents and bad teachers about the same time Ronald Raygun began his attack on our school system. It's a pretty classic case of blame the victims. He did his best to gut our schools just as he tried to tank Labor in general, just as he gutted the affordable housing section of FHA, just as he cut taxes for the wealthy.

Most parents are not sociopaths. They do care about their children, so that's flat out garbage.

And no, a student is not a customer. A customer is someone you can hand a service or an object to in exchange for money. You try teaching on that basis and you will fail because you are overlooking the very basis of the learning situation which involves building a flexible, supportive relationship over time and through anything. It shares that with parenting only you don't get to wear an ugly dress to your student's wedding. Thank God.

[LWolf]

195. Setting aside the inappropriate business framing for the moment,

here's what we do for students with no support from home:

13. Year-round, single-track calendars that give students and teachers shorter, more frequent breaks, which avoid burnout, keep everyone refreshed, and do away with the need to reteach everything lost over long summers every fall.

14. A 190-200 day school year.

15. Schools open early and late, with before and after-school programming for students: tutoring and enrichment. Add adult ed and parenting classes, family fitness classes, etc. to that mix. Staffed by someone other than the regular classroom teachers, to avoid burnout.

17. Full family health services available on campus, including mental health.

18. Something like the "Family Action Network" available in my state, except fully staffed and funded. This program provides things like health care, coats, shoes, glasses, school supplies, etc. for families who can't provide their own, and tracks and assists homeless students.

22. And finally, here at the end, a pet peeve of mine: How about banning all sugary, greasy junk, and have school cafeterias serve healthy, fresh food prepared on site for breakfast, lunch, and even dinner (see # 15.)

[MineralMan]

201. Are those actual ongoing programs in your schools?

Or are they things you'd like to see? All make very good sense to me, and if your schools have implemented them, that's very good, indeed. In Saint Paul, they have the early morning and afternoon stuff, but none of the rest, although the cafeteria menus aren't completely horrible some of the time.

The year-round idea keeps being brought up, but never implemented.

No health services. The few school nurses float.

#18 is just a dream here. The kids in the inner city schools are just warehoused, for the most part and we have a very, very high dropout rate. In contrast, the suburban schools are excellent. Feh!

[LWolf]

205. Those come from a list of things I have proposed for many years,

which I finally put into a post to respond every time someone posts a "So you don't like Obama's education policies? How would YOU fix things?" post.

You can find the whole list here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=219&topic_id=26438&mesg_id=26493

Some of them have been implemented in various schools I've worked in; not all.

My current school has FAN, which I am incredibly grateful for, and some early and late programming, based on a 5 year grant.

I've worked year round calendars other places, which is why I support them. People who haven't tried it routinely reject it; they are attached to their summers, lol.

I've also worked an extended calendar for students. You have to be able to pay for those extra days.

I also worked a flexible calendar for 3 years, which got shot down by the state of California, because it skated too close to "positive attendance." Since schools are funded according to the attendance figures, no state wants a school to have 100% attendance. That would mean 100% funding.

That was an interesting calendar: We had 205 school days during the year. The teacher worked all of them. Students were required to attend 190 of them. The average # of school days in CA at that time was 180 for students.

As for the rest of the items on my list at the link, I've worked in schools that implemented #s 7 - 12, as well.

[MineralMan]

211. Thanks, I'll go check out the whole list.

[MineralMan]

214. I read your list. It's a good one. I don't find any point

where I'd criticize it. We have the following one in place here in Saint Paul:


8. Do away with attendance zones. Fully fund transportation to any school within a district, allowing all families to choose the school that fits their child best, (with caps on enrollment to prevent over-crowding of any school.) When # 7 is implemented, each school would be free to offer a customized program, under the district's watchful eye.


It works not too badly, and the specialized and targeted schools are getting very good results, but the majority of students in our rather large district remain in the old, crowded schools in the city. None of those schools are doing very well at all. In fact, they're doing pretty abysmally just now. One of the problems appears to be that many of the best teachers have, quite naturally, applied for and got transfers to the smaller schools. The only way to get one of those jobs is to have been around for a long time, since that is reflected in the experience part of the application for transfer. New hires go straight to the inner city old-style schools, where their lack of experience is not a positive thing. Same thing is true for administrators. The cream gets skimmed off for these great new schools, leaving the skimmed milk for the old schools.

So, the practice works, in part, but fails in a larger part. We have a new chief administrator this year. We'll see what she manages to get done. Lots of pressure for her. We have such a fractured system with some parts showing excellent results and some getting worse every year. It's going to be hard to fix, especially with slashed budgets. Uff da!

[LWolf]

217. The elephant in the room is money.

ALL the schools need the same opportunities that the specialized and targeted schools are getting. Let them ALL specialize. Making sure you've got enough buildings, and staff for those buildings, to keep schools small is costly. So is transporting any student to any school.

But as long as only some schools can do that, inequities continue. That's one of my primary objections to charters. That, and they aren't publicly run.

Equity means equal opportunity for schools within the system. When equity isn't there for the schools, it won't be there for the students, either.

[janx]

229. This is impressive, LWolf.

The following are the ones that I like the best, and for the record, I teach college undergraduates and have worked with "at-risk" students in middle school and high school.


4. Smaller districts, smaller schools, small classes. Class sizes based on the research. That's imperative if you want to establish and maintain a safe, constructive environment and make sure that nobody falls through any proverbial cracks.

This is perhaps the most important. From what I've heard about the size of the classes in public schools these days, it's very chaotic. The kinds of behaviors I saw when working with younger students were appalling, and I knew that children wouldn't show such disrespect if they'd been in a classroom of a decent size. Also, provided with smaller classes, teachers wouldn't have to spend so much time on "classroom management," a great deal of which is discipline and control. Frankly, I was sickened at the degree to which teachers had to devote themselves just to get the environment ready for learning. That should NOT be.



5. Abundant resources to address every child who is having trouble for any reason whatsoever, regardless of whether they have an IEP. Counselors, tutors, Special ed teachers....see # 3.

This sounds good...I had some amazing conversations with a school counselor a couple of summers ago. Her specialty was working with gang kids.

6. Hire full-time all-the-time supervision, enough to cover every square inch of grounds and building, in the interests of the "safe" and "constructive" part of #4.

Sad, isn't it, that this is needed? But there you have it.

Once those things are accomplished:

7. Remove the demands that every school adhere to standardized methods, materials, schedules, structures, and formats, while maintaining enough regulation to make sure that student and employee rights are protected.

How much are public school teachers told what to do? Can you alter the curriculum, choose your own textbooks and assignments, or are they assigned to you? Are you told what to do and how to do it? Obviously some goals are in order, but how much leeway do you have?



9. Use a method of teacher evaluation that promotes professional growth and improvement, rather than using ineffective forms each year or using evaluations as weapons against teachers. Charlotte Danielson's work comes to mind, but there are other models, as well.

I have a question about this one. How have evaluations been used as weapons against teachers in the past? What kinds of evaluations are these? I ask because I don't know anything about how public school teachers--or any teachers outside of higher ed--are evaluated.


10. Make schools transparent and open. Parents, after signing in, should have access to classrooms at any time, with the understanding that they will not interrupt or disrupt in any way, or interact with students without teacher guidance. Whether to hang out and watch, or to volunteer, doors should be open to parents. Education is not a business, and parents are not customers. They are vital members of the team.

I like this one very much, but when my kids were growing up, I was working like a fiend and had to make sure to take time just to get to conferences and activities.

11. ALL hiring done by committees that include an admin, teachers, and parents.

This one is good too; what about the local school board?



13. Year-round, single-track calendars that give students and teachers shorter, more frequent breaks, which avoid burnout, keep everyone refreshed, and do away with the need to reteach everything lost over long summers every fall.

Important! YES! I love this one.


15. Schools open early and late, with before and after-school programming for students: tutoring and enrichment. Add adult ed and parenting classes, family fitness classes, etc. to that mix. Staffed by someone other than the regular classroom teachers, to avoid burnout.

I like the early and late factor for tutoring and enrichment.



19. Did I mention a well-rounded, well-balanced curriculum, including the arts and daily PE? Marzano calculated that it would take 22 grades, instead of 12, to fully teach every standard on the books in any state. How about narrowing that down, with a focus on thinking skills, and basic literacy and numeracy, so that students would actually have the opportunity to master all the curriculum schools are supposed to deliver?

I love this one too! If they can master these, the ensuing years will be a lot easier and more interesting for the students.

20. Do student teaching differently. Make student teaching a paid intern position, lasting two years. During those two years interns work with more teachers, and more grade-levels. A broader range of experiences and responsibilities.

I like this one, but like some of the others I left out, it's a definite wish list item.

21. Staff schools with permanent substitutes who always work at that school site, and, when there is no teacher to sub for, work in classrooms assisting teachers, getting to know students, procedures, expectations, and everything else that keeps the classroom running smoothly when a teacher is absent or pulled out of the room for other duties.

Couldn't interns assist with this?

22. And finally, here at the end, a pet peeve of mine: How about banning all sugary, greasy junk, and have school cafeterias serve healthy, fresh food prepared on site for breakfast, lunch, and even dinner (see # 15.)

This one is a no-brainer!

[LWolf]

246. Some answers:

For # 7? How much leeway do we have? That differs from district to district. Some of it depends on the prevailing philosophies of the school board and the district, and some depends on their standing under NCLB. If ONE school in a district doesn't make AYP for a few years, the district is required to implement an "improvement plan" in EVERY school, whether or not that school was making AYP. Those "improvement plans" inevitably standardize what happens in the classroom.

I worked in a large district in CA that had a couple of schools' scores result in an "improvement plan." As part of that plan, the district adopted scripted curriculum for reading and math. How strictly those scripts were followed depended on the site admin. One principal in the district told his staff, "When I walk down the hallway, I better hear the same thing happening in every room at the same time, or I'm writing you up." We were required to submit detailed lesson plans each week that documented every standard every time. Then we were required to post standards we were teaching on the wall. Next it was scripted bulletin boards. Random compliance checks from district personnel were implemented; they would walk in unannounced to check our bulletin boards and posted standards. If a student couldn't recite the standard they were currently working on? The teacher was written up.

That district also used some of the unit tests that came with the adopted scripted curriculum as "formative assessment." They issued us a pacing guide telling us what to teach each week, month, and term throughout the year. We spent a week on the reading tests and a week on the math tests at the end of every trimester. The results were not used to "inform instruction." They were used as a compliance check to make sure teachers were sticking to the scripted curriculum and pacing guide.

My current district is much more flexible and supportive. They expect results, because of the bad things that happen when we don't make AYP. There's a lot of pressure. We are encouraged to use the district adoptions, but are not restricted to them or told HOW to use them. We ARE required to have regular "data team" meetings to analyze data and use it to write "smart goals" and implement specific interventions for students identified by formative assessment as needing it. While I find the obsession with data tiresome, the process is positive and supportive.

All that could change if we end up with a forced "improvement plan."

#9: They haven't been used as weapons in the past. It's the current trend, using student test scores to evaluate teachers and fire mass numbers of teachers and other staff that is the issue. Test scores are being used as weapons.

Teacher evaluations vary from state to state and district to district. They all have quite a bit in common, though. They are based on classroom evaluations, which may happen once, a few times, or regularly throughout the year. Teachers may or may not be required to submit written lesson plans, and to have pre- and post-observation meetings with the admin observing. The admin will generally give a write up of each observation to the teacher at the time, and then an annual evaluation towards the end of the year after all the observations are done. That evaluation is presented at a meeting; the teacher reads the eval and the comments and has a chance to discuss it with the admin. There's a place for a signature and it goes in the personnel file. If a teacher disputes something, there is a process to follow. I'm not sure what that process is, since I've never disputed an evaluation. If I did, I'd contact a union rep and they'd walk me through it.

# 11: I worked at a school that did this for several years. We all loved it. This, and many other non-traditional practices were canceled when the district standardized every school for the "improvement plan." Not that hiring practices should have been part of that; the plan required standardization, though, so innovation or being "different" wasn't allowed.

Local school boards don't do hiring, except of the superintendent. The district office does the hiring. So a prospective teacher puts an application in at the district office, who checks it to be sure the applicant is qualified. When a school has an opening, the site admin views the applications and selects some to interview. In some districts, applicants can request to interview with specific schools. Our committee met at the D.O. to go over the applications and select candidates to interview, and conducted the interviews at our school site. After each interview, we'd discuss the positives and drawbacks for each candidate. After all the interviews, we'd compare and contrast them, and offer up our personal choices. Then we'd vote for a few, and narrow the field, and discuss them all over again, until we got to a final vote between our top choices.

# 21: Yes, they certainly could. As a matter of fact, I think they SHOULD, if we had # 20. It would help mitigate the cost of subs, for one thing, and they already would be on campus all the time anyway. We'd still need a pool of regular subs, though. There aren't that many student teachers to go around.

I'm glad you liked them!

[janx]

250. Thanks for answering my questions. I've learned something. n/t

[one_voice]

181. It is indeed...

sad. Parents and teachers should be working together. Strength in numbers, comes to mind. I'm probably going to have to take a shower after I confess this, but the one thing I agree with Palin on is no one wants to mess with pissed off moms. You get the teachers and moms together, and look out. :-)

:goingtotakashowernow:

[madmom]

149. My 7th grade Ohio History teacher.....the whole class consisted of

her writing "notes" on the board. No lectures, no nothing else. To pass the class all we had to have was our notebook with those notes copied from the board. I passed that class with flying colors, I know diddly shit about Ohio history. This was 30+ years ago, when money was not supposed to be a problem. Why was she allowed to "teach" when she didn't?

[MineralMan]

153. Wow. That sounds stultifying.

[madmom]

166. Exactly, I credit that with my dis-interest in modern history, while I am truly fascinated with

ancient history.

[MineralMan]

180. Very sad.

I was lucky. California history was well, and interestingly taught by my teachers. It was a grammar and middle school (junior high in my day) subject, and I was lucky enough to have teachers in that subject who enjoyed the subject. It was one of my favorites.

[EFerrari]

190. If you are still blaming a teacher for the 7th grade

maybe you aren't interested in modern history in the first place.

The teachers I had K-3 thought I was slow. They didn't realize and didn't ask if I spoke, read or wrote another language. My high school teachers didn't think I was college material. That didn't keep me from being accepted to a graduate class of under 20 in a field of hundreds or from an advanced degree in English.

Personal stories. We all have them.

[madmom]

213. I think that's what I said, I find it totally boring. But MAYBE if she would have

taught history instead of wrote on the blackboard I may have at least learned a little. My interest in ancient history came from watching the "smart channels" on tv and they piqued my interest so I started learning more on my own. Isn't that kind of what a teacher is supposed to do, make you want to learn more, at least hold your interest a little?

Yes we ALL have personal stories about good and bad teachers ( I loved my 7th grade English teacher) isn't that really how this works? We learn about people who are good or bad at their jobs through word of mouth, why should teachers be any different?

[proud2BlibKansan]

222. Did you have any good teachers?

[madmom]

223. Yes I did, but for some reason this one sticks in my mind. I had a fantastic

English teacher, the same year. He instilled my love for reading. I later had a science teacher who was very hands on and made science fun and interesting. I had a teacher in 6th grade who used a novel approach to learning current events that taught me a skill that I still use today. So yes I had some very good teachers, but the one bad one does stick in my memory for the lousy job she did.

[LanternWaste]

196. I would imagine we could give just as many examples

"I could give many more examples of excellence and utter failure..."

I would imagine we could give just as many examples of both excellence and utter failure on the part of the students too.

I'd also imagine many people would erroneously attribute the credit or blame of one to the other, depending wholly on the point they wanted to make.

[MineralMan]

204. Here's the deal, as I see it.

Students enter the system at age 5 or six. At that age, they are pure potential, and cannot be described as either "excellent" or "failures." You see, I don't see the progress of an individual student as separate from their entire school experience. The 18-year-old graduate started out as a 5 or 6 year old. The school experience takes 12 years. There are many factors that produce either excellence or failure on the part of an individual student. Teaching is just one of those factors, but it is the subject of this thread.

Discussion of the other factors could be different threads. It's hard enough to keep a focus on one thing, much less than on the entire education process. This thread is about teachers and evaluating teachers. You could start another thread on another aspect of the education process.

I have no point. I was trying to begin a discussion about how we, as a society, might go about evaluating teachers without resorting to the use of public disclosure of test scores. It didn't work. More's the pity.

[NJmaverick]

207. Excellent post, you raise many good points

[MineralMan]

215. Thanks. I wish they were being discussed.

For some reason, the thread deteriorated almost immediately.

[ismnotwasm]

208. Hmm

Good questions.


Until I ended up in an 'alternative high school' for troubled kids--one of those social experiments that worked and so was underfunded and perhaps sabotaged, I don't remember a single teacher that inspired or stood out. They seemed all the same to me, a bit robotic but I'm sure it was my shit, not theirs. When my kids were in school, I felt about the same, but by them I understood that most teachers are teachers, they're not superheros and have no obligation to 'inspire' anybody except perhaps to a love of learning, or seeing the value of, if not the joy in the topic taught. Nevertheless, some teachers do stand out. Heck, we make movies out of such stories. We love those kind of teachers. We also, apparently, love to blame teachers for parental failings.

In my time, the seventies, busing for desegregation had started, teachers were dealing with a lot more than teaching. That hasn't changed, I think, one thing about America, we are trying to educate a whole lot of different folks while dealing with white flight as well as economic flight for those who can afford non-public schools. Which leaves, what Exactly? At the very best, A Difficult Situation, at the worst, a cluster-fuck.

The words 'pubic school' have been framed in a negative way, much like the words 'feminist' or 'liberal' or 'socialist'

So I don't get why we need more piled on public school teachers, I don't feel they don't need to go down to the proverbial whippin post as examples, but they do need to be supported more effectively AND held accountable in a decent manner.

I'm a nurse in a 'public' institution. I get great evaluations, partly because the evaluation system is set up in a non-punitive way. (not that I'm not a great nurse of course, ahem)

If a disciplinary situation ever came up, I have the right to a union representative by my side. In nursing any significant problem that's identified will be, or better be, or should be, dealt with waaaay before any evaluation because we're dealing with a vulnerable population, sometimes in life or death situations.

So do teachers, deal with a vulnerable population, and yet teachers themselves are vulnerable in a certain way nurses usually aren't. I don't know what the evaluation system is like or how much it varies from institution to institution. Perhaps that's a place to start. How are we evaluating our teachers? By student grades? Not if they have students like I was, unreachable until a certain age. By popularity? Also not good, since non-popular teachers might be very, very good.

Forgive my musings. I don't have answers, but I suspect the problem lies in systems and perceptions. (How vague is that?)

[MineralMan]

216. Thanks for your reasoned comment.

It's a terribly difficult problem.

[tinymontgomery]

237. Did you ever think that

the teacher that said you will never amount to anything actually made you work harder to prove him wrong? Internally it might have made you want to prove him wrong. Might not have been the best way but you did succeed, and let him know it.

[MineralMan]

241. No, actually, I was a very self-motivated kid when it came

to learning. I always worked very hard. My success came, not from being provoked by a teacher who was simply mean. It came from my upbringing.

Still, I was hurt by what that man said to me. No teacher, under any circumstances, should ever say such a thing to a 15 year old student. Ever. It's cruel and unfeeling. I'm not sure what provoked it in the first place. I had a straight A grade in his class, did all the work, and even some extra credit work. I was in no way a troubled student who wasn't achieving at the maximum level. I simply have no idea what prompted him to say a cruel thing to a pimply-faced adolescent.

A year or so later, I probably would have told him where he could put his insult, but I didn't have that level of self-confidence yet. I ended up with an A in his class, but I had A grades in every class, so that was unremarkable. He was just an asshole, who, for some reason, decided to take something out on a kid in his class.

I didn't have to work harder. I was working plenty hard.

[tinymontgomery]

242. I agree, no teacher should

use that kind of what they think is motivation, I was just wondering.

[MineralMan]

243. That teacher had no intention of motivating me.

The thing is that the class was very easy for me. I read all the books assigned in the first week of the class. I read all the time, so that was a no brainer. I wrote the assignments and took the tests. But I was bored with the class. I was bored pretty much with high school in general, except for a very few classes that posed a challenge, like the advanced math classes I was taking.

To most of the school, I looked like a kid who was going to conquer the world. I didn't, as it happened, since I opted for a more relaxed life than some thought I should pursue. I still was a success at whatever I did, but I didn't take a standard direction in my life. I still don't, and never will. There's just too much interesting shit to learn and do, so I don't see any reason to follow some artificial path.

Maybe this teacher sensed my boredom. Maybe that's what pissed him off. I don't know. But, I sat in his class, paid attention, more or less, and did more than was expected when writing assignments, etc. came up. It's just that the class wasn't a challenge, so I focused on other things that were.

It doesn't matter, really. I was a kid, and no teacher should ever say such a thing to a student. It was none of his business. I excelled in his class, challenged or not. I didn't cost him an ounce of energy. I didn't challenge him on anything. I took his class and earned an undisputable A in it. It wasn't difficult to do. His words were unprofessional, at best, and an attempt to cow me, at worst. It didn't work.

I was shocked by it, frankly. It seemed so out of place at the time that it gave me a bit of a pause. So I told my parents what had happened and what he had said to me. My father, bless his heart, went to the school and had a "conference" with this teacher and the principal of the school. That was the last time the teacher ever said a single word to me. He treated me as though I did not exist in his classroom. Suited me just fine.

This was a very small school in a very small town. The man was an idiot.

[tinymontgomery]

239. John Adams said (our third president)

"There are two types of education. One should teach us how to make a living and the other how to live" by John Adams USA President , So as a teacher I just don't teach what's in the book but also what it is going to be like when they walk out the doors. (teach 9-12)

[quakerboy]

249. Lets examine the question

You ran into a few bad teachers. But you turned out ok. So obviously a few bad teachers are not a fatal problem. So why is this an important issue to you, at a time when teachers as a group are under attack from the right, and at a time when our students seem to be in desperate need of more teachers, more attention, and more learning?

Lets reapply the question. Good cop/bad cop. There's pretty much no real attention or focus behind keeping our police accountable. And there, we have people maimed or dying virtually every day across the nation because of the few bad cops. Why don't you turn your concern over weeding out a few bad ones to the police, where it is a critical life/death issue?

Lets reapply it slightly differently. Good politician, bad politician. Why are we not grading our politicians on their effectiveness in achieving things for their constituents. They make decisions that have massive life/death consequences, that make or break lives. Why not focus your energy toward weeding out the truly horrific among their ranks?

I am curious. Why this focus on this particular minuscule relatively harmless minority?