.....

[madfloridian]

.

[LoZoccolo]

1. So you're upset about the liberal comment but not that they should move the mosque??!!

[madfloridian]

2. This is a very important time in our party.

The party leaders can only treat us with scorn just so long.

[LoZoccolo]

3. It's not like you've been treating them with scorn or anything.

[Hannah Bell]

5. LOL. They represent *us*. They're supposed to be able to take the heat.

We're not supposed to kowtow to them like slaves or worship them like rock stars.

[laughingliberal]

8. +1 nt

[madfloridian]

9. They never criticize the activists on the right.

And that is a serious problem. They seem to fear them, and they lack respect for us. Not good.

[grantcart]

4. Sorry to hear about your husband and even more saddened to hear about

your granddaughter. I hope that you can get away and 'decompress'.

I don't agree with Dean on the Islamic center but this all pails in oomparison to your personal loss.

[madfloridian]

6. Not really it doesn't..

The personal loss is ours, the loss to our country if the contempt toward a whole group of us keeps on will be enormous.

It means they are depending on the right to win the election. And that means they will use their issues, not ours.

It helped us put things in perspective, our grief.

[DevonRex]

31. WTF?

[madfloridian]

7. I don't see any of our leaders talking about the "inflexible" right wing.

Not a damn word about them.

Just us. The ones who got them elected.

Point is they don't need us anymore.

[Hannah Bell]

10. +100. But i think it's a miscalculation.

[hfojvt]

17. they don't need us to do what we have been doing for the last year

which is to tear them down. You don't see our leaders bashing the rightwing, well neither do I see our leftwing bloggers bashing the rightwing. It's like Counterpunch all over again. I used to love Counterpunch in 2003. I read several article every day, but then the Democratic Primary started and it seemed like they stopped punching the Bush Administration and the Republicans and instead started punching the Democrats in article after article. Is that how we got them elected? Is there an election less than 3 months away?

[hfojvt]

11. You may be writing more on this board than you are reading

otherwise how can you believe that "the left" is not inflexible? Just try disagreeing with it some time.

One thing about "the Democratic wing of the Democratic Party" is that they are "part of the team" as Dean said when I heard him speak on the healthcare issue "at the end of the day, I know what team I am on". And when he said that, the group of liberal activists applauded.

The left blogosphere. Some of them admit they were never part of the team, and others are always threatening to quit. To quit donating. To quit volunteering, and to quit voting. Further some seem to be actively trying to encourage others to feel the same way and to do the same thing.

What Dean said is parallel to what Somerby wrote today

"As she closes, Digby adds to her brief, noting there’s no correct view but hers. If the rubes really do disagree with her, “we have bigger problems,” she says. But tribalists are always like this. There is no view but theirs.

There’s no “right” or “wrong” about Digby’s post; we’d recommend that you ponder its tone. Can you feel respect or sympathy for the average shlub who gets his ass disinformed by Fox? Tribal haters will raise their hands—No! We libs have been like this forever.

Maureen Dowd says that everyone knows. Digby says the rubes don’t care. Traditionally, this is the way progressives lose. But lord! How good it can feel!"

http://www.dailyhowler.com/index.shtml

We leftist bloggers always seem to dig our heels in and then spew invective at the other side, on every issue.

[madfloridian]

12. And that kind of rhetoric is just what I meant.

And that is all we are going to hear from now on. The stage is set to give credibility to the right wing bloggers. Trust me.

[truedelphi]

14. Jon Stewart said tonight that The Parent Company over Fox just

Gave one million dollars to the Republicans.

And Stewart asked the audience, "Shouldn't the Republicans be giving Fox News one million dollars?"

But that is the whole point. The CIA, festering with people like Cheney and Kissinger, see that some of the black box op money goes to operations like C Span, and Fox news. The Powers that Be fully intend this nation to stay slanted to the right.

And Obama certainly does not seem upset about any of that. In fact, he and Congress have had all along the attitude that it is far better to make huge concessions right off the bat than to be faced with a filibuster, or someone on the right hiccuping

[madfloridian]

13. I am amazed you quote Daily Howler putting down Digby...

one of the most reasonable bloggers on our side. That's a shame.

[hfojvt]

15. shame or no shame, is he wrong in what he says?

if so, how? It's not like I never disagree with him myself, but "that's a shame" is not a rebuttal.

I think he is correct about the tone in the quote from Digby

"I could be wrong, though. Maybe most of the country really believes that it's insensitive for American Muslims to practice their religion near Ground Zero, in which case we have bigger problems."

Digby, unlike you and me, who are not all that excited about this mosque issue, has taken a side, and figures that most people on the other side are just misinformed, or uninformed. If people on the other side really are informed, then that is a big problem. Thus, there is the standard tribal delineation. There is our tribe, the Jets, who care about the Constitution and are not bigots or xenophobes or gullible fools, and then there is the other tribe, the Sharks, who are either ignorant, mislead or just downright evil (and in each case, there is no excuse). Then there are the Neville Chamberlains like Reid and Dean.

Such a sermon plays well to the choir and we adore our clever preachers who feed us the comfort food of our one virtue or of the other teams defects and depravity. But does it help us to win? Is it convincing to people who are not already dedicated choir members?

[Hannah Bell]

16. what are you talking about? win what?

[hfojvt]

18. I guess I was under the impression that we were trying to win something

like election 2010 and a more progressive government and nation.

Seems to me that the conservatives are certainly in it to win it.

[Hannah Bell]

19. i have no idea what you're talking about. you're saying if democrats take a stand against muslims,

they win? they win an election?

[hfojvt]

32. no, I said this before

and it got deleted. I don't really care one way or the other about this "mosque". My concern is about working class issues - taxes, jobs, the budget, the economy, etc. Yet, that always seems like a low priority for the left. Other issues keep popping up, like Schiavo or Tookie or the Mosque, and the left always seems to a) be really concerned about it, and b) take an uncompromising position on it, and c) cast aspersions at anybody who does not agree with their position, which is always based on a High Moral Principle which should never be compromised.

My basic framework is this, or the way I would like to see it.

Republicans, you see, represent, the rich, the top 5% or the top 1% instead of representing the bottom 95%. The Democrats should stake a claim to the bottom 95%. That's the way to win, because 95% >>> 5%.

However, the left does not seem to care if the Democrats represent the bottom 95% either, certainly not the bottom 50%. Much of the left is in the top 40% and often they identify as much with the top 5%, more than they do with the bottom 50%. Instead the left will chase after issues like the mosque and then proceed to talk about how contempible much of the working class people are - a bunch of bigots and xenophobes and ignorant idiots. Then we wonder why those morons won't vote for us.

I am saying the left can draw more people to our cause if we drop the whole "I am on this side and people on the other side are morons and a-holes" frame.

[cornermouse]

20. The democratic party has been our traditional home

and for some strange reason we think we should have a say in what the democratic party does.

If they're like me, "the left" as you call us don't care about the repubs. They aren't our party and we can't do anything to change them, therefore why waste scarce time excoriating them. Accusing us of "tribalism", etc., is yet another attempt to belittle and alienate the people who it targets is not going to win you any votes.

[Kahuna]

22. Fine. But leftists must realize that they are not the ONLY voices of the

Democratic party. Like it or not, most Dems are actually moderate and pragmatic.

[cornermouse]

23. No. Most democrats are not moderate centrists.

Most democrats are leftists. The party platform is leftist.

Even more to the point... After 8 years of Bush, the majority of the country, even here in deep red country, wanted a roll back of Bush policies and restoration of their rights; something even the right considered infringed upon. Obama and the democrats failed to understand that fact and unfortunately it looks like its going to cost them.

[Kahuna]

34. That's not what all the polls say. According to polls, only 20% even

consider themselves, "liberal." Nevermind, "leftists." :eyes:

[cornermouse]

24. One other thing.

You want a moderate centrist? Look to Arlen Specter. 'Nuff said.

[cornermouse]

25. No. Most democrats are not moderate centrists.

Most democrats are leftists. The party platform is leftist.

Even more to the point... After 8 years of Bush, the majority of the country, even here in deep red country, wanted a roll back of Bush policies and restoration of their rights; something even the right considered infringed upon. Obama and the democrats failed to understand that fact and unfortunately it looks like its going to cost them.

(just in case it didn't take the first time)

[hfojvt]

29. look at your own response

you think I am attacking your tribe. This is "another attempt to belittle and alienate" the Jets.

No, it is another attempt to show the Jets what they are doing, and to explain how it is self-defeating. Is there a better way to get your friends to stop engaging in self-destructive behaviour?

Why waste time excoriating Republicans? Because THEY are the ones, primarily, standing in the way of a progressive agenda. Therefore, we want far fewer of them in Congress. Anything you want to bash Obama and the DINOs for, the Republicans are fully for it. Some Democrats voted, for example, for the Iraq war. One of them paid for that, at least partly, by losing a primary in 2008. I am all for that, but it is important to remember that a) a majority of House Democrats voted against the war, b) only some Democrats voted for the war, and c) almost ALL Republicans voted for the war.

DU once was a place where a person could read about how bad the Bush Administration was, could read about the top 10 Conservative Idiots. Now, it is a place where a person can read about how bad the Obama Administration is, and can read about the top 10 Democratic Idiots. I don't see how that kind of rhetoric wins any votes or moves the country to the left.

[Kahuna]

21. Et tu, Brute?

:wow: I know what you posted this summer. ;)

P.S. I'm glad that your husband is doing better and very sorry to hear about your granddaughter. You must be devastated.

[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Javaman]

27. This is like the 4th or 5th post this week with the "..." title...

I keep missing the good stuff!

:rofl:

[postulater]

28. ????????

!

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

30. bump

[canetoad]

33. It's time you took a break

Calmed down, collected yourself and sorted your priorities. Then there would be no need to go back and delete your posts - because you would have not posted in haste to begin with.