In Illinois, Doctors Refusing to Treat Women Who've Had Abortions

[ensho]

http://www.rhrealitycheck.org/blog/2010/08/17/reproductive-health-roadtrip-bringing-back-home


-snip-

I want to focus, however, on one particularly disturbing obstacle that was mentioned in city after city: doctors refusing to care for women who have had abortions. Mind you, these are not doctors refusing to perform abortions. What we heard, in three separate communities, was that there are doctors who refuse to perform routine post-abortion check-ups or even to provide care for completely unrelated ailments to women who previously had abortions. What’s worse, in two instances we heard that these doctors were some of the few who were accepting Medicaid patients at all – meaning that poor women would have to face greater obstacles to receive needed medical care. In one instance, we heard of a doctor throwing a patient’s medical records on the ground and storming out after he learned she had had an abortion.

-snip-
----------------------------------


these men are not Doctors, they are religiously insane doctors who need psychiatric counseling.

women should never go to them. religiously insane men are misogynists too.

[Name removed]

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[HiFructosePronSyrup]

2. Or an uppity black guy having the nerve to sit at your lunch counter!

[Name removed]

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[AlabamaLibrul]

7. Only as ridiculous as your assertion. n/t

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[arbusto_baboso]

33. Reaching much?

This is about treating women who have ALREADY HAD abortions. Try reading.

And enjoy your VERY SHORT stay on DU.

[SargeUNN]

79. You got to be kidding

The hypocratic oath says do no harm, to refuse to treat a patient like that is potentially doing harm and a grevious violation of the oath. Furthermore you really need to wrap your brain around the fact that being a doctor is not the same thing as being a store owner. To compare the two is ludicrous and frankly dumb.

[niyad]

83. except that there is NOTHING in the modern version which says this

(be good enough to indicate, with proper links, which medical schools still use the ancient version)

Modern Version

A widely used modern version of the traditional oath was penned in 1964 by Dr. Louis Lasagna, former Principal of the Sackler School of Graduate Biomedical Sciences and Academic Dean of the School of Medicine at Tufts University:<8>
“ I swear to fulfill, to the best of my ability and judgment, this covenant:

I will respect the hard-won scientific gains of those physicians in whose steps I walk, and gladly share such knowledge as is mine with those who are to follow.

I will apply, for the benefit of the sick, all measures are required, avoiding those twin traps of overtreatment and therapeutic nihilism.

I will remember that there is art to medicine as well as science, and that warmth, sympathy, and understanding may outweigh the surgeon's knife or the chemist's drug.

I will not be ashamed to say "I know not," nor will I fail to call in my colleagues when the skills of another are needed for a patient's recovery.

I will respect the privacy of my patients, for their problems are not disclosed to me that the world may know. Most especially must I tread with care in matters of life and death. If it is given to me to save a life, all thanks. But it may also be within my power to take a life; this awesome responsibility must be faced with great humbleness and awareness of my own frailty. Above all, I must not play at God.

I will remember that I do not treat a fever chart, a cancerous growth, but a sick human being, whose illness may affect the person's family and economic stability. My responsibility includes these related problems, if I am to care adequately for the sick.

I will prevent disease whenever I can, for prevention is preferable to cure.

I will remember that I remain a member of society, with special obligations to all my fellow human beings, those sound of mind and body as well as the infirm.

If I do not violate this oath, may I enjoy life and art, respected while I live and remembered with affection thereafter. May I always act so as to preserve the finest traditions of my calling and may I long experience the joy of healing those who seek my help.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hippocratic_Oath

[SargeUNN]

96. Modern Version is BS

it no longer is Hypocrats then is it? The new version means they just don't want to live up to the standards so they changed it to meet their lower standards. Anyone accepting this is a fool.

[uncommon]

103. The modern version is much more woman friendly than the classical version.

[LanternWaste]

123. I imagine we 'devolved'...

I imagine we 'devolved' from the 4000 year old Hammurabic Code of Laws because "we just didn't want to live up the standards..." too. Anyone accepting new laws is a fool.


Six of one, half a dozen of the other, you see. Ethics change, cultures change, science advances-- should not laws, codes and rules also change to reflect advancement?

[whathehell]

167. It says the doctors won't provide services to women even for "unrelated" medical issues.

What part of that did you miss?

[Donnachaidh]

24. Rand -- your daddy's calling. Git along home now boy.

:eyes:

[Name removed]

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[arbusto_baboso]

39. You are so clueless.

Ever been to an ER? YES, they have to treat EVERYONE. No exceptions. Period.

Do you even KNOW any medical professionals?

[Name removed]

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[arbusto_baboso]

45. We're also not talking about women SEEKING abortions.

So, you get to grasp at straws, but no one else does, eh?

Sorry but you just failed the logic test.

Got an axe to grind much?

[Name removed]

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[arbusto_baboso]

50. Lemme guess from the content of all your posts taken together....

You see police protection as more important than health care, right? And you also think that government should involve itself in police services, but not health care. Am I getting warm?

[Donnachaidh]

it's Rand Paul -- he's *taking DU on*

:rofl:

[niyad]

86. so you are defending doctors who refuse treatment to patients, based on their religious beliefs?

your agenda is very clear, and your "handle" on this site is pathetically hilarious.

[Donnachaidh]

52. clueless. I see a pizza in your future.

:rofl:

[Name removed]

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[AlabamaLibrul]

61. Pizza:Italian open pie made of thin bread dough spread with a spiced mixture of e.g.

tomato sauce and cheese

Enjoy.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

100. If you don't like pizza, there's the alternative of a nice Western movie.

Specifically, one starring Kurt Russell and Val Kilmer.

[dionysus]

85. "when could they ever go home. you have to give them some choice."

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

[Kalyke]

101. They have to treat the patients their office has already accepted, yes.

In order to even be in the doctor's examining room, these women had to fill paperwork, insurance documentation and medical histories. If the front office took the info and gave the woman an appointment, then, yes, it's the doctor's duty to treat that patient.

If he refuses to only treat women who have never had an abortion, his office staff needs to ask that on the front end and then inform the female would-be-patient that he would not treat her if she has.

And, you're sadly correct in that too many doctors go into the profession to get rich rather than help patients. That's been a problem for some time.

[csziggy]

118. Yeah, those doctors should just put signs on their doors

Like the one here in Florida who put up the sign saying if you voted for Obama, he did not want to treat you.

What does HIPPA say about medical records if a doctor refuses to treat the patient? Does the doctor get to keep them? Because if a doctor is so unprincipled to turn away a patient for some past decision, I would not want to rely on his principles to protect that patient's privacy.

[MattBaggins]

139. The doctor has to give all paperwork to the patient

[Kalyke]

147. First, it's HIPAA (not like HIPPO).

:)

And, all paper patient records should be given to the patient or destroyed and all electronic records should be given to the patient, if wanted, and then destroyed by a computer forensics analyst or someone of equal caliber.

http://privacy.med.miami.edu/glossary/xd_disposal_of_records.htm

And, I was being snide regarding doctor's letting patients know ahead of time. I guess that would work for any doctor who did not take a lick of public money - like through Medicare or Medicaid - but if you take ANY public money, then you can't really pick and choose on that criteria.

[MattBaggins]

137. Yes

[ehrnst]

150. Prohibiting discrimination does not = "forcing you to serve every customer that walks in."

Same stuff was said by bigots about desgregation... "Business owners will be forced to let criminals inside their stores who will steal them blind."

You can refuse service based on an individual's actions (so long as the rules are clear) inside your business.

If you walked into a physician's office that dealt with men's health issues (perhaps the only one within an hour's drive of your home that participated in your insurance program), and someone saw you walk from the parking lot and said, "We don't take patients that drive that make and model of vehicle. Our doctor doesn't approve of anyone driving a vehicle that has that poor MPG," I suppose you would consider that ok.

[Anakin Skywalker]

201. Ha Ha Ha! I Like Your Response!

[kestrel91316]

54. This is not libertarian undergound. You won't find much support for YOUR

line of thinking here.

[Name removed]

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[liberalhistorian]

92. So, where would you draw the line?

Should doctors then have the right to refuse to treat gays? Or blacks? Or people who still eat red meat after a heart attack? Or people who homeschool their children? Etc., etc., etc. Where do you draw the line? And do you really not see the difference between a doctor and a store owner?

[MH1]

97. Hey Rand, what are you doing on DEMOCRATIC Underground?

Just wondering ...

[ChairmanAgnostic]

104. your ignorance shines bright.

[ehrnst]

126. You must follow laws that prohibit discrimination, just as you have to follow codes.

That's not relinquising control of your business. There are all sorts of regulations on businesses - from providing access for the handicapped, to keeping the premises clean enough to pass a health inspection.

Refusing service based on a class of persons, not based on actions of specific persons in your place of business, is indeed discrimination.

[Mojorabbit]

141. Yes, it is part of the job

As a nurse I cared for HIV pos patients, drug addicts, rich and poor of every race and religion. It is part of medical ethics. All people have value and we do not judge them. We provide the best care we can when they come in.
Who in their right mind would want to guess if the person caring for them when they are at their most vulnerable is biased against them in any one of a myriad of ways?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

15. Actually, I think they're probably the very same people.

Scratch an anti-choicer, find a white supremacist.

[Name removed]

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[HiFructosePronSyrup]

26. I enjoy the side you've decided to take.

You support the right of these scum to spit in the face of their profession, but you get all bent out of shape when they get their just desserts.

Oh, and btw? Your slip is showing.

[immoderate]

38. You support doctors who refuse to treat sick people?

Can they turn away Jews, Muslims, blacks, gays, Unitarians?

--imm

[Name removed]

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[immoderate]

57. So can they turn away sick people or not?

What other medical procedures disqualify patients? What if they die because a doctor refused to treat them?

You are welcome I'm sure.

--imm

[Name removed]

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[arbusto_baboso]

66. If it's an emergency they WILL work you into the schedule.

So, you're wrong again.

Next?

[Name removed]

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[arbusto_baboso]

74. Sorry, but you replied to a scenario where a patient dies because a doctor refuses to see them.

You don't get to just keep changing shit in mid-stream to hammer on whatever "point" you are trying to make.

Again, you're wrong and you you just won't admit it.

[AlabamaLibrul]

77. "completely unrelated ailments to women who previously had abortions" could very much be n/t

[immoderate]

82. Note to wingnuts: This is called the "change the subject strategy."

Pay attention wingnuts, this is how you deal with a liberal who has nailed you on an issue. Change the subject!

Also look up straw man, red herring, and begging the question.

--imm

[leftofcool]

67. Horseshit! That is not the same thing as being turned away

because you once had an abortion and you darn well know it.

[immoderate]

75. OK, I'm convinced you're a hillbilly, in the most derogatory sense...

What makes you a liberal?

--imm

[Name removed]

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[immoderate]

87. OK, that's a good list.

If you are pro choice, why not support follow-up medical care?

--imm

[Name removed]

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[immoderate]

98. It is illegal for business owners to discriminate.

Would you do away with public accommodations laws? Rand Paul style?

--imm

[LostinVA]

115. So, if you own a restaurant, you can refuse to serve blacks?

Oh boy.

[LostinVA]

114. I kinda doubt you are pro choice because of your "debate'

What civil liberties do you support? Civil liberties for woman to be free from discrimination?

[arbusto_baboso]

120. 2nd Amendment rights are probably the extent of his civil rights "support".

[LostinVA]

127. Seriously

:thumbsup:

[Name removed]

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[whathehell]

169. Another bad analogy...You're not left with that doc or nothing..There's usually the ER to go to, but

maybe you think the doctor running the ER should be able to turn someone away too?

[Kalyke]

108. Um... yeah they do.

People of Semitic descent have certain inherited medical maladies that people of white European descent don't have, for example. People of African descent also have genetic diseases that other groups don't get. Granted, now that the races are mixing more and more, those are becoming inherited diseases throughout all "colors," but it's still more common among targeted ethnic groups right now.

So, you're saying that these same doctors can refuse to treat a Jewish man for a cold if he has Tay-Sachs disease? Or the doctor can refuse to treat a black man for a heart attack if he has Sickle Cell anemia?

[ehrnst]

132. That's the point - they are classes of persons. Refusing service on that basis alone is...

Descrimination.

A physician that provides gynecological services can refuse to perform specific procedures in general. But to refuse all services to a class of persons - such as women who have had abortions - is not refusal to perform a procedure, it's a refusal to provide your services as per a society that has anti-discrimiation policies.

[TheKentuckian]

142. What does an abortion in 97 have to do with treating an ear infection today?

[whathehell]

183. What if they were SICK "jews/muslims/gays/etc..?

and the doctor just didn't like one or all of these groups...Would his "right" trump their rights?

[MattBaggins]

136. That's pretty much exactly the same thing

[whathehell]

164. How is it different? n/t

[AlabamaLibrul]

3. Medical care is a bit different than being a Slurpee jockey n/t

[uncommon]

8. A doctor can turn down a patient, but in an area where few doctors accept Medicaid, this

should not be happening.

Also, doctors should not be able to practice under the auspices of their religious ideology unless they want to work for the church.

[Name removed]

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[AlabamaLibrul]

21. I'm a doctor, I wanna turn down a black man, or a homosexual, or someone that "looks funny"

It's MY BUSINESS, GODDAMN IT!



ETA Your description as a liberal, that's some funny stuff right there.

[mnhtnbb]

41. Physicians who treat the practice of medicine as 'business'

instead of as healing art and science, are a major problem in this country.

[Name removed]

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[kestrel91316]

55. Doctors' educations are LARGELY funded by the state. Who do you think

pays to keep most university doors open? Tuition is a drop in the bucket compared to federal funding.

[mnhtnbb]

135. My husband--an MD for 40 some years--has NEVER been in 'business'

He has refused to incorporate--and refused to consider the people he treats as 'customers'.


Yes, he's a dinosaur, but he is not alone. There are others like him and we would be better
off if there were more like him.

[reggie the dog]

37. where i live it is illegal and a doctor would risk losing their license

if they refuse to treat someone due to their past medical history, of course i no longer live in the USA and live in the country ranked 1st in health care in the world so what do i know.

[tsuki]

70. So, should you have all your medicare patients in a line up Monday

morning to decide which ones you will take, and throw out the rest. Isn't that a death panel?

[SammyWinstonJack]

112. Are you deliberately missing the point? Just looking too be argumentative?

:shrug:

[LostinVA]

116. Yes

[LostinVA]

117. Yes

[Name removed]

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[Pathwalker]

171. Drs. run Practices, not businesses. Not all Drs. work privately.

They work for Health Care Companies that are run by local hospitals - like where I live. They sign CONTRACTS - by which they are legally bound to care for ALL who walk through their doors, regardless of ability to pay, regardless of their belief systems. My GP just got fired for assuming she had the "right" to decide who got what treatment according to her "morality" when her contract said otherwise.
And I'll be damned if I'll even consider replacing her with a Dr. who went into private practice to get rich, or one who sees themselves primarily as a "business owner". If a Doctor wants to run a business - they should get a business degree, not a medical degree, or go into administration at a hospital. They're supposed to take any and everyone who walks in the door.

[Name removed]

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[Pathwalker]

174. Authority to WHAT? You certainly haven't been shy about throwing around

your own opinions on this thread. Your response make no sense whatsoever. :eyes: :crazy:

[Name removed]

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[Pathwalker]

177. That statement is in the office waiting room of every clinic run by

the hospital system in the area where I live. It was originally run by The Sisters of Mercy (feel free to Google them)but when they sold it to the other local hospital system, one of the provisions of the sale required this policy to remain, where these signs also appear in almost every Dr.s office in that system too. This is in Lansing, Michigan. Yes, they are required to treat EVERYONE. Period. I couldn't imagine wanting to live anywhere that this is not the case - it's barbaric. And greedy.

[ehrnst]

130. Can physicians refuse to serve a class of persons - rather than individuals? (nt)

[SnakeEyes]

192. Compel by government force

to do that which they disagree with will reduce the number of people who enter the profession. We need as many that can become doctors as possible and the best and brightest if possible.

[lolly]

194. Yes, that's an eminent problem

In fact, right now there are only about a dozen people trying to get into each single slot in medical schools in this country.

If they find out they'll actually have to treat sick people, even if they don't personally agree with their previous medical care, that number might drop to only 10 applicants for each open position. Doooom for us all!

[ehrnst]

205. The Gov't has the right to prohibit discriminatory practices.

If the 'best and brightest' think that some classes of people are not worthy of their service, then I would hesitate to call them either.

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[uncommon]

46. It's not that discussion isn't tolerated - but there is no discussion material here. Doctors have a

duty to provide medical care to people in need. A doctor should not have the power to turn down a patient for ideological reasons.

[Name removed]

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[Pathwalker]

51. You might want to actually read the oath.

Since you clearly haven't.

[Name removed]

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[uncommon]

73. I think it's pretty clear per your very own post here that a doctor has a duty to society that

may include treating patients who s/he disagrees with politically.

[niyad]

95. since you are posting the same oath I did, WHERE is there any mention of abortion in this version?

[Lars39]

62. It would be like an endodentist refusing to put braces on a patient

because the patient had a tooth with a filling. And you have no idea if life-saving treatment is entailed or not.

[Name removed]

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[Lars39]

131. No reason except he would be an idiot like yourself.

:hi:

[uncommon]

145. Are you serious? You think doctors should be able to invent arbitrary reasons to turn away patients

Also, when it comes to the issue of the OP, this is a politically charged issue split on ideological lines - it's not braces and fillings, it's women's bodily sovereignty and dignity in healthcare.

[MattBaggins]

140. No other professions can not make a choice in their clients either.

[kestrel91316]

58. Support for christofascist physicians who seek to cause women to die through

lack of medical care is not a democratic value.

Shall I order you a pizza?

[LostinVA]

119. Being for women's civil right is a given to be a poster on here

[uncommon]

146. Amen.

[Mendocino]

158. You can post whatever you want,

but be prepared for others refuting it. You sound like Dr. Laura.

[Gold Metal Flake]

11. Like a cop who refuses to answer reports of crime at black-owned businesses.

Right?

[Name removed]

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[AlabamaLibrul]

43. Doctors take an oath to humankind. n/t

[Gold Metal Flake]

63. I don't see how it's different.

But some folks just can't help but pick & choose.

Pick & choose what parts of the bible to expect others to conform to.

Pick & choose what parts of the Constitution to support and which parts to ignore.

Pick & choose whether to uphold their oaths or not depending on the situation.

Doctors, cops, firemen. If they are picking and choosing who to serve and protect and who to disregard, they should not be in a job where they serve the public.

:hi: I "see you".

[kestrel91316]

69. Physicians receive their license to practice from the state, which

regulates practice. Such licensure carries with it a duty to the public, whether expressly stated or merely implied.

When I graduated from vet school, I took an oath that said something or other about looking out for public health. In CA, if my actions as a veterinarian endanger the public health I can get in trouble with the state.

Allowing needless illness or death affects public health, even if only by affecting health statistics negatively.

[Kalyke]

111. If the doctor is taking Medicare money, then he is also

a public servant.

[ensho]

12. a doctor isn't a store. doctors take an oath, apparently some don't mind

breaking the oath

[Hell Hath No Fury]

14. Doctors have a moral and professional obligation -

to treat the sick and injured. If they cannot handle that obligation, then they need to leave the business, plain and simple.

[lolly]

23. Part of the broader question of access to health care

If you believe basic health care is a right, then someone has to provide that health care.

If there is no one in your area who will provide that care, you have been deprived of that right.

Is health care strictly a business, like selling widgets or burgers? Or does the profession have a higher standard?

My feeling is that this is one more reason why we need to implement universal health care. Medical education and care is heavily government subsidized; perhaps doctors who wish to treat medicine as strictly business should foot the entire bill for their education, and should not be eligible to receive government payments for Medicare and Medicaid. Then they would be welcome to accept or refuse whatever "customers" they wanted, but we wouldn't be helping to pay for their bigotry and slots would open in medical schools for students who were interested in actually providing medical care to people who need it.

[kenny blankenship]

109. +306,000,000

Healthcare should be a right for all US citizens.

[Enrique]

25. George Wallace?

is that you?

[reggie the dog]

28. i think it is againt the oath they take when they become a doctor

should doctors be able to refuse treatment if they dont like your hairstyle or how you vote or whether or not you smoke pot?

[leftofcool]

32. WTF?

[seabeyond]

34. no..... nt

[kestrel91316]

53. So are you saying that women who have previously had an abortion are

DIRTY or unsanitary and a health threat to others??? Because that's the reason for requiring shoes.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

60. Your courageous stand against ant-bigot bigotry is touching.

:eyes:

Oh, and IBTT.

[SargeUNN]

72. Huh??? put down that kool-aid and back away

Ever hear a little thing called the Hypocratic Oath? This is a violiation of that oath and these people know it.

[geardaddy]

105. So, when your house is burning

and I'm a fireman who doesn't like hillbillies, I can just let it burn?

[City Lights]

110. LOL!

:spray:

[damntexdem]

113. No, they should lose their licenses for refusing to treat these women.

This is a disgusting failure to live up to their oath.

[ehrnst]

124. If you hang a sign up in a publicly accessible store that says "whites only" or "gays not allowed"

Or "we serve Christians only."

You would likely be sued for discrimination, and lose the case, because those are protected statuses.

These women are not being refused specific services, they are being refused as a class of persons.

The case could be made for discrimination.

[LostinVA]

128. Not serving gays is legal in alot of places

[ehrnst]

133. How do they tell if a customer is Gay? (nt)

[LostinVA]

148. You know exactly hat I mean

It's been done before and will be done again. It usually makes the news, and depending on the state and the company, it doesn't happen again. At least at that location.

[ehrnst]

149. Actually, I don't. Really. I live in a liberal area outside DC and

I just have not heard the stories where it was law that you could indeed ban gays from a venue.

[EstimatedProphet]

125. Well, part of your screenname is correct

I leave it to the reader to determine which part...

[ehrnst]

129. That's based on a behavior, not a class of person.

[Iggo]

138. Just curious. Yes or No.

Do you ever take the liberal side of an argument?

Like I said. Just Curious.

[DainBramaged]

154. Hippocratic Oath

swear to fulfill, to the best of my ability and judgment, this covenant:
I will respect the hard-won scientific gains of those physicians in whose steps I walk, and gladly share such knowledge as is mine with those who are to follow.

I will apply, for the benefit of the sick, all measures are required, avoiding those twin traps of overtreatment and therapeutic nihilism.

I will remember that there is art to medicine as well as science, and that warmth, sympathy, and understanding may outweigh the surgeon's knife or the chemist's drug.

I will not be ashamed to say "I know not," nor will I fail to call in my colleagues when the skills of another are needed for a patient's recovery.

I will respect the privacy of my patients, for their problems are not disclosed to me that the world may know. Most especially must I tread with care in matters of life and death. If it is given to me to save a life, all thanks. But it may also be within my power to take a life; this awesome responsibility must be faced with great humbleness and awareness of my own frailty. Above all, I must not play at God.

I will remember that I do not treat a fever chart, a cancerous growth, but a sick human being, whose illness may affect the person's family and economic stability. My responsibility includes these related problems, if I am to care adequately for the sick.

I will prevent disease whenever I can, for prevention is preferable to cure.

I will remember that I remain a member of society, with special obligations to all my fellow human beings, those sound of mind and body as well as the infirm.

If I do not violate this oath, may I enjoy life and art, respected while I live and remembered with affection thereafter. May I always act so as to preserve the finest traditions of my calling and may I long experience the joy of healing those who seek my help.



They should lose their license to practice.

[Mendocino]

155. A doctor refuses to treat a woman

because she had an abortion. She goes home, dies of internal bleeding. Doctor gets convicted of depraved indifference.

Electric company somehow learns that two gays live in an apartment. PowerCo CEO doesn't like gays, orders their electricity turned off, after all it is a non-public entity. Cold spell hits, tenants freeze to death. Depraved indifference.

Man staggers into a store, bleeding from a knife wound to the belly, asks for help. Store owner does nothing, doesn't care for the mans color. Man dies. Depraved indifference

UPS guy refuses to deliver medicine to Muslims. Person dies. Depraved indifference

See what I'm getting at.

[krabigirl]

157. No, this is much worse...they took the hippocratic oath and are there to serve the sick.

[Lorien]

160. Hippocratic oath

I swear to fulfill, to the best of my ability and judgment, this covenant:

I will respect the hard-won scientific gains of those physicians in whose steps I walk, and gladly share such knowledge as is mine with those who are to follow.

I will apply, for the benefit of the sick, all measures are required, avoiding those twin traps of overtreatment and therapeutic nihilism.

I will remember that there is art to medicine as well as science, and that warmth, sympathy, and understanding may outweigh the surgeon's knife or the chemist's drug.

I will not be ashamed to say "I know not," nor will I fail to call in my colleagues when the skills of another are needed for a patient's recovery.

I will respect the privacy of my patients, for their problems are not disclosed to me that the world may know. Most especially must I tread with care in matters of life and death. If it is given to me to save a life, all thanks. But it may also be within my power to take a life; this awesome responsibility must be faced with great humbleness and awareness of my own frailty. Above all, I must not play at God.

I will remember that I do not treat a fever chart, a cancerous growth, but a sick human being, whose illness may affect the person's family and economic stability. My responsibility includes these related problems, if I am to care adequately for the sick.

I will prevent disease whenever I can, for prevention is preferable to cure.

I will remember that I remain a member of society, with special obligations to all my fellow human beings, those sound of mind and body as well as the infirm.

If I do not violate this oath, may I enjoy life and art, respected while I live and remembered with affection thereafter. May I always act so as to preserve the finest traditions of my calling and may I long experience the joy of healing those who seek my help.



None of it is followed by "Unless the patient has had an abortion."

[whathehell]

163. Bad analogy....A woman who's had an abortion is not like someone

"without shoes"...The latter could be construed as a public health risk, I believe...The former is someone who's past the doctor "doesn't like"...It's judgmental, bigoted, and unprofessional as hell.

...Welcome to Du.

[Hong Kong Cavalier]

170. Capitalism > Hippocratic Oath?

Awesome priorities there, chap!

[Canuckistanian]

182. Mankind is their business

Excerpt from the Modern Hippocratic Oath:

I will remember that I remain a member of society, with special obligations to all my fellow human beings, those sound of mind and body as well as the infirm.

[krabigirl]

4. So scary.

[Pathwalker]

6. As are religiously insane women Doctors.

My recently fired Doctor signed a "Pro-Life" pledge printed in all the local papers without identifying herself as a Doctor, a pledge which was signed by many others. Oddly enough, ALL the Doctors and Nurses on that list are suddenly no longer with the Medical group from which I receive medical care. :evilgrin:

[ensho]

19. true, I should have included them because women can be misogynist

too.

poor brainwashed things

[Pathwalker]

29. Mine was, and also had no problem forcing her "morality"

onto my medical care, considering certain medications "immoral". I won't miss her, but I'm glad these Doctors and nurses will have to go elsewhere to force their beliefs on others.

[Lorien]

161. True. I saw an OB/ GYN here in Florida who asked me what my relationship was with

Jesus Christ after I said that yes, I was sexually active and no, I'm not married. She didn't like my "Not that it's any of your business, but I have no religious beliefs." reply. Obviously I left without my exam.

[ehrnst]

206. Good. If they want to discriminate, then they should be fine with accepting the consequences.

If forced childbirth is something that they so much want to promote - which goes against the recommendation of ACOG - then they should accept the sacrifice of the money that they would get otherwise.

[LaurenG]

16. **

:hi:

[Bitwit1234]

22. Didn't they pass a law that pharmacist had to fill prescriptions

no matter what they were. Now they need to weed out these type of doctors. If they won't treat a patient because of their religious doctrines, make them have a special license. Make them confine themselves to only that practice and see how long they stay in business.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

31. the law passed. But this story smells like a rat.

a dead rat. I get three illinois dailies a day. no way this happened, not without a story being published.

[customerserviceguy]

204. That's my impression as well

This is "somebody told me that somebody said that there were doctors that did X, Y, and Z".

That might be good enough for people who read right-wing blogs for evidence that the President is a Muslim, but it's pretty thin for me. Even the people who this author spoke with were not given, at the very least, psuedonyms. Before jumping to all kinds of conclusions, it might be good to have enough facts that a competent reporter might have a snowball's chance in hell of finding the alleged doctors, and at least being able to ask for their version of the story.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

27. I have a real problem with this story.

It simply does not ring true. No facts, no names, no name of "towns," no nothing.

Illinois, despite Sam Zell, Rupert Murdoch before him, and other cackles of cretins, has a thriving newspaper industry. In the suburbs between Chicago and Springpatch, there are dailies in Joliet, the Southtown daily, and more. There are weeklies (the regional is a fine little paper) The idea that this occurred more than once, AND WAS NOT REPORTED strikes me as absolutely unbelievable.

Could this have happened? Possibly, once, with one angry, demented MD in some rural locale. Is it happening in several towns? No way. I call bullshit on this.

Yes, we did have a case where one, mind you ONE, pharmacist in southern illinois refused to fill a birth control prescription. That happened years ago, and the state passed a law preventing it from happening again. If a pharmacist has such a problem with that drug on religious grounds, he/she MUST give back the prescription and advise them where they can have it filled.

[ieoeja]

84. Actually, that pharmacist was in downtown Chicago.

Cops had to be called in to quell the minor riot that occurred. Women who run Fortune 500 companies didn't take kindly to that shit.

[Donnachaidh]

30. These doctors should be outed, at the very least

Let them answer to the public.

[w8liftinglady]

35. these "docs" are probably associated with THIS organization

http://www.aapsonline.org/

http://www.aapsonline.org/resolutions/2003-2.htm
60th Annual Meeting
Association of American Physicians and Surgeons
Point Clear, Alabama, September 17-19, 2003


WHEREAS: the Association of American Physicians and Surgeons stands on the principles of the Hippocratic Oath, which oath clearly opposes abortion of a developing human child;

WHEREAS: teachings of the major religions of the world have opposed abortion of a developing human child until very recent times;

WHEREAS: even if religion is removed from the issue of abortion of a human child, without life as the ultimate ethic, no objective ethical standard remains;

WHEREAS: the unborn child in the womb meets the definition of human being, and people's choices are limited by government when those choices would harm another human being;

WHEREAS: the purpose of abortion of a human child is to destroy the life of the child, in contradistinction to other terminations of pregnancy to save the life of the mother, in which an attempt would also made to save the life of the child;

WHEREAS: our society will not permit a woman to terminate the life of her unwanted child after birth, despite its total dependence, even in the privacy of her own home in consultation with her physician; and

WHEREAS: the public's right to know and to make an informed decision about abortion of a human child has never been made possible by the opportunity to view various methods of abortion at different stages of gestation;

THEREFORE BE IT RESOLVED that the Association of American Physicians and Surgeons supports the right to life of human beings from the moment of conception to natural death.

[ieoeja]

89. This line is a complete falsehood:

"WHEREAS: teachings of the major religions of the world have opposed abortion of a developing human child until very recent times;"


I am pretty certain Roman Catholicism qualifies as a major religion. And the RC fully approved of abortion up until quickening (when the fetus starts moving) for almost 2000 years. I know they changed that, but only very recently. 20 years ago that was still the official policy.

[w8liftinglady]

93. this is the medical group that wants to repeal medicare,too

...and "Obamacare"

[unblock]

64. how many doctors refuse to treat murderers and rapists and so on?

i've never met anyone in the medical profession who would refuse to treat ANYONE based on ANYTHING about their past unless they had a valid MEDICAL reason for refusing to serve them, e.g., they lacked the qualifications for what the patient needed, or the patient was requesting a medically inappropriate procedure, trying score some narcotics, etc.

doctors supposed to treat all patients with equal care regardless of their class, background, nationality, personal history, an so on. doctors are not supposed to sit in judgement of their patients' personal lives. doctors are not supposed to care about how patients' medical needs arose except to the extent that information is medically necessary.


in this case it sounds like the doctor women as patients and THEN, while taking a medical history, learn about a previous abortion, THEN reject them as patients.

it's one thing to, say put a sign up saying you won't accept patients with history of abortion (still odious, but of a different flavor). it's quite another to accept that woman as a patient and then drop everything on the basis of a NON-MEDICAL decision based on MEDICALLY OBTAINED information.

[CanonRay]

78. They should lose their license to practice medicine

maybe Rand Paul can re-certify them.

[Name removed]

81. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[CanonRay]

88. Lousy analogy

Doctors take an oath about caring for people. I'm pretty sure lawyers don't.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

90. So you think that women are dangerous fugitives?

[uncommon]

94. There are public defenders that are assigned to those who cannot afford an attorney - this is not

the case with medical care, disturbingly enough.

[Name removed]

99. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[uncommon]

144. So hire a lawyer?

There are a lot of affordable ones out there and a lot of them will charge a relatively low retainer and bill you for the hours later.

(I work in a law firm, so yes, I know what I am talking about.)

[whathehell]

172. Umm..

Enjoy your time here.:eyes:

[polmaven]

212. Except there are, across the country,

"Community Health Centers", which, for approximately the last 40 years, have existed to treat patients on an "ability to pay" sliding scale basis. They are federally funded, and most also have some state funding. If a patient has no income, the treatment is free. Of course, if hospital admission is necessary, that may then become a whole different story. Most have contracted the assistance of specialists to treat patients who need them, who will also bill on the same sliding scale, through the Health Center.

The thought that any physician would refuse to treat anyone based on his/her class is absolutely among the most revolting things I have ever heard.

[LostinVA]

121. Yes, if he refuses all black clients, or all female clients, etc.

The patients mentioned in the OP are being discriminated against because of their gender AND a past medical condition, which is illegal, as well as unethical.

[Radical Activist]

102. WTF?!

I've never heard of this before. Thanks for posting.

[w8liftinglady]

106. medical groups like the one Rand is associated with have bastardized the Hippocratic Oath

among others



http://www.aapsonline.org/ethics/oaths.htm

[activa8tr]

107. Bottom line in this never-ending theocratic drive toward absolute...

control over women's bodies.

"LET THOSE WOMEN DIE" seems to be the message here.... punish women who have chosen abortions previously in their lives and in some cases this might mean the women will pay with a death penalty.

This is sickening. Take their medical license away, if they can't be tolerant of our rights, they shouldn't practice in the USA.

[KamaAina]

122. Bring them up before the licensing board

this is worse than the pharmacists who won't prescribe Plan B. At this rate, someone's going to die like African Americans used to because white doctors wouldn't treat them, white ambulance drivers wouldn't pick them up, etc. :grr:

[bigmonkey]

134. This reminds me of an Onion headline, except it's not very funny.

But the headline is:

"Christian Science Pharmacist Refuses To Fill Any Prescription"
http://www.theonion.com/articles/christian-science-pharmacist-refuses-to-fill-any-p,9645/


Really, these doctors refuse to do their jobs?

[TheKentuckian]

143. Sounds like the state should be pulling that license to me

[Liberal_in_LA]

151. K&R

[amborin]

152. knr

[snagglepuss]

153. It's contemptible however it's better these women know upfront these

doctors are unethical bastards. I don't think women who have had abortions would receive even adequate care if these creeps were their doctors.

[jmowreader]

156. This could get interesting if allowed to continue

Quiverfull doctors refusing to treat anyone who's been surgically sterilized.

Anti-illegal-drugs doctors refusing to treat anyone who'd ever smoked weed, taken crack or meth, or shoved heroin.

Fundamentalist doctors refusing to treat anyone who'd had sex before marriage, or lived with their spouses before marriage whether they had sex or not.

Doctors refusing to treat any man who'd ever taken ED drugs like Viagra.

- - - - -

There MIGHT be a good reason to refuse to treat someone who had an abortion 30 years ago. ("But doctor! He was anencephalic." 'That's no excuse. He would have been a great Republican!') I, however, have absolutely no idea what it is.

[B Calm]

162. These right-wing christian wackos need to be rounded up and exiled!

[JerseygirlCT]

165. Disgusting. nt

[krabigirl]

166. women will just stop disclosing that they had abortions.

[Name removed]

176. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Pathwalker]

178. Is it medically necessary?

EPIC FAIL. GIVE IT UP.

[Hansel]

179. Yes, as long as he sews your fingers together so you can't type.

Your analogies get more and more pathetic.

[whathehell]

181. Do you know of anyone who's done that?

Or are you just describing your most paranoid right-wing fantasy?:eyes:

[femrap]

180. I had a female

ob-gyn refuse to believe I had an abortion....she kept calling it a miscarriage. She was nuts. This doctor went on to 'kill' a woman who wanted her tubes tied. 'Complications.'

I don't even tell drs. that I've had one. The insurance companies get this info....the gov't. Who knows....someday the Fundies may take over and they'll put me in an internment camp.

[BlueIris]

184. Misogyny is such a cancer on this society.

What sad, sorry excuses for "doctors" these misogynists are.

[Pathwalker]

185. Yay! It's Pizza Time for the Hillbilly!

:party: :toast: :bounce:

[ProfessionalLeftist]

186. They are control freaks....

....they need help. Seriously.

[Liberty Belle]

187. The AMA should discpline them. If they won't treat patients, they should not be doctors. Period!

[KakistocracyHater]

188. time to print up a list of doctors that will treat women as Human beings

& privately circulate it. Perhaps even nurse/practitioners would also qualify?

[dsc]

189. there is no excuse for this

Under no circumstances should these doctors be getting Medicaid or Medicare funds. It is one thing to refuse to perform abortions, or for that matter, any other medical proceedure. But to refuse patients because you don't like what they did is outrageous. Honestly, I think their licences should be put at risk.

[gristy]

190. how many doctors?

[AlbertCat]

196. how many doctors?

What does that have to do with anything? One is too many!

[gristy]

202. Well, I looked at the article, and IT DOES NOT SAY how many doctors

Yet with the headline and language used, one would think it was a pervasive problem. The article is quite inflammatory. It is a blog post. Not a news article.

[uncommon]

208. It also doesn't matter how many - this kind of shit should be illegal.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

211. That's it. Damn the facts, Fool Rant Ahead!

I live smack dab in the middle where this allegedly occurred. I guarantee you it would have made the news. IT NEVER HAPPENED.

[uncommon]

214. Then the issue here should be with the OP, not me.

Also, just to be clear, women's issues are frequently ignored by local and national news.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

216. correct. It should be, but too many people on this OP

are going way overboard, accepting the original premise as fact, even though the post HAD NO FACTS. NONE.
We have obviously concerned people demanding the resignation, the license, or even worse for some mythical doc. This is the worst aspect of the intertubes, in my opinion. Without even one provable fact, people go hog wild.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

209. THIS NEVER HAPPENED.

If it would have, it would have made the headlines.

THere are no facts, no names, no places, no dates, no nothing. What does that have to do with anything? Everything.

[jerseyjack]

191. Sue the Bastids

and remove their license to practice.

[dadzilla]

193. Any names?

Seriously, people should have the option of avoiding using these doctors.

[McCamy Taylor]

195. The doctors need to be reported to their state boards which will strip their licenses.

I assume that this has already been done. If not, it only takes a phone call.

The malprctice suit for "pain and suffering" from the woman who was treated so shamefully is optional...but it will also send a powerful message.

[donheld]

197. Somebody remind me,

what country are we living in?

[uppityperson]

198. I miss all the fun here on "deleted" threads

[Kurovski]

199. The schmucks should be delivering newspapers, not health care.

Find another line of work if it means so goddam much to you, all you "Dr. Heaven-Peckers" out there.

Fucking holy-rolling pharmacists too. Lawn care offers no moral dilemmas. Go mow lawns.

[Axle_techie]

200. wow, I don't think I have ever seen that many deleted messages

Regardless, isn't refusing a patient with a valid medical concern against the Hippocratic Oath?

[Mimosa]

203. If you don't tell them it's unlikely they'd know

Too bad things are like this...but if a woman has an abortion in her medical history maybe it'd be best to keep it to oneself.

[uncommon]

207. It isn't best for her health though. There is a reason that doctors ask about medical history -

because everything a human body has been through has an effect on a person's health.

There is no reason a woman should have to hide her medical history.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

210. there are clearly discernible signs of a prior pregnancy.

All the MD has to do is ask, "How many kids?" But your body tells me you've been pregnant several times.

[wial]

213. I'm shocked

the AMA tolerates this.

What does that say about them?

[valerief]

215. This does not surprise me. I'm terrified of the crazy Jesus zealots (any religious zealot, actually)

in medicine in the US today.

[madrchsod]

217. they should have included the town or cities these doctors were located.

doctors who take medicaid here in illinois are few and far between. in some cases over a 100 miles or more for specialists.i hope the ladies reported the doctors to the state of illinois but i doubt anything will happen. these doctors know the state has no choice to keep them because no other doctors are willing to wait months to be paid.


one hell of a healthcare system we have in the good old usa..