I have to say, it is nice to see us lefties stand against Dean's

[demmiblue]

shit statement!

Policy against people!


:toast:

[Warpy]

1. He seems to be backtracking somewhat

and is calling for a dialogue between Muslims and the mob instead of an illegal ban on the cultural center.

Sorry, Doc, not going to work. You can't cave to the mob, not now, not ever. They're a mob, and that makes them incapable of rational dialog.

[demmiblue]

2. I think I must be missing out on something. Mob? n/t

[dkf]

3. Illegal ban?

[demmiblue]

5. Just logged on, didn't see that he was on Countdown.

:hi:

[customerserviceguy]

4. Don't count me in among them

I see Dr. Dean's statement as being cognizant of the realities in America. There's a difference between acknowledging someone's right to do something, and expressing regret that they're actually doing it.

[demmiblue]

6. I don't get it. What realities?

What is wrong with letting Americans buy a former Burlington Coat Factory in order to have an Islamic community center?

[HarveyDarkey]

10. Now if it were a YMCA, that would be OK

and we all know what YMCA stands for.

[dkf]

11. The reality is that 70% of Americans think this is a bad idea.

The American Muslim identity is still pretty vague in the mind of the average American. This argument has the potential to firm up positive or negative impressions. And let's face it...if you want to be seen as "the other" going against majority opinion is a very good way to do it.

[demmiblue]

15. Since when are percentages a good indicator of doing what is right?

Sometimes doing right is just that.

[dkf]

61. 70% think that being sensitive to families of the murdered is important

30% dont care about being sensitive and only want the full exercise of religious freedom.

[pinboy3niner]

62. Yet you have NO problem being insensitive to the MUSLIM families of the murdered

Forgive me for not being able to take your position seriously when you practice such discrimination in choosing WHICH 9/11 families you're willing to care about--and which ones you're not.

It's disgusting the way the 9/11 families are being used to serve an ugly, bigoted agenda.

[dkf]

63. It's the numbers. If the vast majority of the killed were Muslim then I'd say it was okay.

But that is not the case.

[Mz Pip]

26. Sort of like the majority

of folks in CA who voted for Prop 8? Lots of people in CA bought into the pro-8 false rhetoric that it was a bad thing. No basis in reality but what the hell.

It's really really difficult to go up against the majority when they have both propoganda and money on their side. But you have to commit or end up on the losing side.

[Forkboy]

35. Mexicans, Muslims....who do you like?

[dkf]

60. Being against illegal immigration isnt about Mexicans. Why are you assuming all

illegal immigrants are Mexicans? Isnt that racist?

Bigot!

[Forkboy]

66. LOL....I'm not the one arguing against the Muslims having a community center.

I'm not the one defending Arizona's immigration law.

That would be you.

I'd say nice try, but it didn't rise to that level. Seriously, try harder next time so you don't look like a total amateur.

[ljm2002]

68. Speaking of being "realistic"...

...the fact is, the hysteria that has been whipped up about illegal immigration is pretty much entirely directed at Mexicans.

[uppityperson]

39. link to that "reality"? People do have a chance to learn that this is a good thing.

Could be a good chance to show people another face of Islam than OMG THEY'RE GONNA KILL US!!!!

[philly_bob]

42. Probably 70% of Americans don't know difference between Sufi, Sunni, & Shiite. (nt)

[dkf]

59. Exactly.

If this group wants to differentiate themselves this is the perfect opportunity.

[ljm2002]

69. I agree with you on this...

..."If this group wants to differentiate themselves this is the perfect opportunity."

Yes it is. They should build their center, and show how a Sufi organization operates.

[niyad]

47. 65% of those polled, there is a difference. besides, whom did they poll? faux snooze, glenn, bill

listeners? you do know, of course, that there was no opposition to the cultural center when it was first proposed. some twit named geller is the one who started this whole hysterical storm, fed by the reichwing noise machine.

[pinboy3niner]

52. 53% in Manhattan--where the Park 51 site actually is located--support it

According to an August 2010 Marist Poll of Registered NYC Voters:

http://maristpoll.marist.edu/wp-content/misc/nycpolls/c100728/Bloomberg_RV/Construction_of_Mosque_Near_World_Trade_Center_Site.htm

But you already knew that.

[xxqqqzme]

53. But 70% of Americasns do not live in

New York, so who cares! Even polls of New Yorkers show they're not happy with it but the property owners have a right to do as they wish. How can a bunch of people get so fucking obsessed over a rethug manufactured distraction? THAT is the question!

[ibegurpard]

56. I don't give a shit how many Americans think this is a bad idea

they are wrong

[Starbucks Anarchist]

57. Those civil-rights pioneers should have kept quiet.

God forbid they go against the majority opinion.

[customerserviceguy]

28. The reality is

Americans are still smarting over 9/11. Not just in flyover country, but even in NY itself, 60-70%, depending on which poll you read, and how it's worded, feel this is inappropriate. That's different from illegal, and Dr. Dean has made the distinction, in my opinion.

Democratic candidates everywhere except the 100% safe districts are sweating over this. Dean knows that.

[Caliman73]

45. What does 9/11 have to do with the community center?

Are you saying that the people building it are somehow affiliated with the attack on the WTC? If not, then why would building a community center not affiliated with the attacks cause consternation?

Just because? I mean, you know, just cause, look at them....? :shrug:

[sandnsea]

7. There are two mosques in that area

Should they be forced out too?

Why shouldn't there be a Muslim cultural center in Manhattan?

[customerserviceguy]

29. Absolutely nobody is talking about taking down any mosques

The controversy is over building this one.

[niyad]

49. are you seriously not paying attention? all over the country, plans for mosques are being

protested--some idiot reichwinger is saying there should be no mosques anywhere in this country--what part of that do you NOT understand?

[Toucano]

50. Are you sure?

Controversy Surrounds Construction of Mosques Across U.S.

They're separated by thousands of miles, but they share a common controversy: Mosques.
Murfreesboro, Tenn., has joined a growing list of midsized towns in the U.S. that are embroiled in conflicts over proposed mosques being built or bought in their neighborhoods.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/07/02/controvery-surrounds-construction-mosques/

I am sure someone somewhere in the United States IS INDEED calling for the destruction of mosques.

[pinboy3niner]

58. Don't forget the pipe-bombing of a FL mosque in May

The FBI is investigating it as a possible hate crime:

http://www.news4jax.com/news/23529601/detail.html

[customerserviceguy]

71. Nobody in NYC is calling for closing down mosques

Just because someone out the the boondocks is calling for it, doesn't make that a national issue. Unless the President wants to step into that, too.

This was just a local NYC fight, now it's gone national. There are no good ways out of this for the Democratic Party, no matter how you look at it.

[Toucano]

72. Then maybe NYC should keep it's issue within it's borders.

Maybe youz guyz can just stop talking about it with anyone who's not a registered NY voter.

That would be great!

National issues, as you say, are now whatever Fox News DECIDES are national issues.

Don't you see how the game is played yet?

[Greybnk48]

8. I agree 100%.

I have nothing against Muslims or the Muslim religion (except that I don't have much use for any religion). I don't have anything against the building of Mosques. But, the way this was framed--"they're" building a Mosque at ground zero--hit a nerve with me. It may be wrong like Senator Franken and others have said, but it did hit a nerve. I agree with Dr. Dean.

[demmiblue]

9. So, you think they should not be allowed at that site based on their religion?

[Greybnk48]

18. No. I was trying to make a finer point (I hope!).

I think what is happening to some of us is a psychological trick. When I hear "Muslims want to build" it's affecting me as if the statement was "the terrorists want to build" right where they murdered people. I know it's wrong intellectually. It's irrational to ban people from a place because of their religion. But I understand the emotional response and where it's coming from.

And thank you. Because of the way you put it, I'm not feeling the emotional, irrational reaction as strongly, even though I will never get the images of the events of Sept. 11 out of my mind as long as I live.

[demmiblue]

22. The trick is that certain forces WANT us to make that connection.

But we have the responsibility to understand that we are all intertwined: Muslims, Catholics, Buddhists, Atheist, etc. WE are Americans. All of us. September 11th was a very scary day. It was a scary day for me, to be sure. After the initial shock, I realized that that day would be harder on other Americans. Can you even imagine how hard it was/is for Muslim Americans?

[Karenina]

65. i 'd ask you to sincerely reflect on what you've so honestly posted.

You know it's fearful, emotional and irrational and aren't those things the very bedrock of prejudice and bias?
It's one thing to FEEL those things. It's quite another to act on the basis of them.

[niyad]

51. it isn't a mosque, it is a community center--it isn't at the site of the WTC--it is blocks away

so, you are responding to the frame of the reichwing spin machine, eh? and this doesn't bother you at all?

[Motown_Johnny]

20. maybe they are trying to make a statement about Muslim American's rights

and are choosing this high profile project in order to do it


We all agree they have the right to do this. If they decide it is the right thing to do then the debate should end.

Only time will tell.

[customerserviceguy]

31. It seems like Rethuglicans

would want that point made this close to the election. I think President Obama played into their hands by talking about the issue, rather than demurring on the point.

[ljm2002]

70. The plans have been in the works for some time...

...and prior to the hysteria that was whipped up by an anti-Moslem right wing blogger, the plans were entirely non-controversial.

No, this is not being done by the Moslems in question in order to assert their rights. Rather, this hysteria has been whipped up on purpose by the usual rabid right wing operators, in order to provide whatever irrelevant hateful distractions they can during the summer months, hoping they can gain political points.

Thank goodness, even some on the right are speaking out against this disgusting bigotry.

[Arkana]

32. They're not dressing people like Osama and waving AK-47s in people's faces.

They're building a cultural center that is owned by a Muslim corporation and also happens to have a mosque in it two blocks from GZ.

[roguevalley]

43. actually, the constitution protects even dumb shit and he is on the

wrong side of this. This actually gives anyone who doesn't care about churches, temples and the like a prescedent for going against them. I am sure there isn't a square inch of this country you can't find an atrocity and make this work in your favor. I love me some dean but he's wrong here. IMO.

[ljm2002]

67. Yeah, that Islamic community center will really bring the neighborhood down...

...after all, they could've opened up a strip club or something like that. We would NEVER allow something like THAT near Ground Zero!!!

:sarcasm:

[Hello_Kitty]

12. Yep. And remember, this is NOT a "leftist" position he's taking.

This is Dean pandering to the RIGHT and it's just as odious as when any other Dem leader does it.

[chimpymustgo]

14. +1.

[demmiblue]

19. Not in the least...

Dean taking this position is very shameful.

I have to say that I am very surprised.

[Gaedel]

21. Pandering to the right?

Or Dr Dean taking a heartfelt position that isn't 100% congruent with DU ideology?

[demmiblue]

25. Well, it is not congruent with the ideology of most of on DU.

What is your point?

Heartfelt, or not, it is wrong.

Hence, my OP.

[Ignis]

36. Your idea of a monolithic "DU Ideology" is pretty far off-mark.

Look at any poll posted, ever, that doesn't obviously set a liberal position against a right-wing one, and you'll see a surprising diversity of opinion.

Besides which, religious tolerance might be a liberal value, but more importantly, it's an American value. :patriot:

[JI7]

64. HE isn't Pandering to anyone, he just happens to feel this way

[noamnety]

13. I was sorely disappointed in Dean tonight. (nt)

[OHdem10]

16. I think he has "re-staed his position. Just caught the very end

at the Fox 6pm show. The panel discussion reflected Dean
had changed or clarified his statement. Sorry, I missed
the entirely of Dean's comments.

Might want to check around.

[sendero]

17. You know...

... I disagree with Dean but then I disagree with every other Democrat politician 5 times as much or more.

[saltpoint]

23. I disagree with Dean on this one issue but I admire

him as one of those "people" you seem to be referencing just the same.

I respect him.

I defend his right to hold his position on the Islamic Center, even if I happen to think Michael Bloomberg, a man I do not always admire so much, outflanked Dean big time in both content of his public remarks and the context in which they were spoken .

I think credit is due where it really is due, as in the case of Bloomberg's address, and that respect is owed to someone who has genuinely earned it, like Howard Dean.

[quickesst]

24. I have got to start.....

....visiting DU more than once a day just so I can keep up with who's a hero one day, and a villain the next. Thanks for the slap in the face. Damn, I just said something nice about Dean this morning, and this afternoon I really regret it. I sincerely apologize to the left for that. Thanks.
quickesst

[demmiblue]

27. DU pretty much stands strong on what is good and right.

Sorry you don't see it that way.

:hi:

[riderinthestorm]

54. What?! Are you kidding?

There are epic flame wars on virtually any hot topic. DU most emphatically does NOT stand strong on what is "good and right" because we are Democrats. We discuss things and argue and all that shit. Hillary vs. Obama anyone?

On some things there really isn't a black or white answer imho. To reduce all DUers to a monolithic is insulting.

What drags is that when a meme gets played, anyone who may have reservations with that meme gets beat to shit. THAT'S when DU becomes less than "good and right". This is supposed to be General Discussion but oft times it is "beat the fuck out of dissenters".

[Steely_Dan]

30. Well, It Does Show...

...our consistency.

-P

[emilyg]

33. Don't agree with you.

[demmiblue]

34. Chalk another one against the

:Gasp: community center.

[emilyg]

40. I'm not against it - just

want a different location for it. By the way - we have a Mosque about 1/2 mile from where I live. I did not object.

[Caliman73]

44. Besides, some of my best friends are Muslims.

Right? The location is irrelevant because the people building the COMMUNITY CENTER are not the people who attacked the WTC.

[emilyg]

55. I don't think I have any

Muslim friends that I know of.

[Forkboy]

37. Why?

[demmiblue]

38. Shit statement....

it draws.

And, no, I do not like Oasis!

[emilyg]

41. See post 28 - expresses my view.

[donheld]

46. Count me in

[niyad]

48. I couldn't bear listening to his equivocation and side-stepping. it was painful.