I had to tell 3 senior citizens at McDonalds today that they were spewing ignorant crap.

[elocs]

You know, all the lies about the mosque that isn't a mosque and how we can't let the Muslims get a foothold here and how we can't trust them.

I just needed to say it and I called them out in front of the entire room. The old man called me an asshole, but I can live with that. Sometimes you just get to the point where you can't let people get away with spewing that kind of ignorant crap unchallenged.

[Lance_Boyle]

1. Respect for your elders is a noble value, as is seeking to educate people who tout falsehoods

Given your description of what you said to them ("ignorant crap") I'm not sure you did either.

[slampoet]

15. Most people who say "respect your elders" haven't worked with the elderly long enough to realize....

...that age hasn't changed these people and they were jerks, not worthy or your respect, when they were younger.

[stuntcat]

162. that's how I feel too

Some of them are fantastic and have led great lives and deserve MUCH respect. Some of them are just lifelong dumbasses. People are people, I won't go all googly-eyed over the young ones and I won't necessarily respect the older ones. The 70-80 year old women I work with every week are perfect examples, selfish racists just over-flowing with hate.

I'm glad they said something to them! I wish I was brave like that, I just hear this kind of BS and go quiet and hold it in, where it builds up in me :grr:

[Systematic Chaos]

242. +583

My mother was the same malignant narcissist at 74 that she was at 44 when I was just becoming old enough to understand that she was way out of her tree about a lot of stuff.

I loved her only because she was my mother, but lost all respect for her by the time I was 12 or so.

[elocs]

41. I smiled when I said it. They deserved every word, elderly or not.

I had no delusion I was going to teach them anything. Too many elderly somehow believe their years give them license to spout anything. Wrong. I got my message across to them short and sweet and there was no mistake about it.

Oh yes, I smiled when I first approached them.

[hyphenate]

71. I don't think that's the point

I think a more subtle way of engaging them in discussion would have worked wonders. You have to remember that most seniors (NOT including those on DU) are not savvy with computers, and are likely only getting their news from traditional sources, like newpapers and perhaps cable TV. It's not their fault that they could be wrong on a matter, considering their sources are not likely to include those which many of us choose.

A quiet moment, away from attention, would have made them better informed on the subject, and less cantankerous in the long run.

[DainBramaged]

84. Subtle doesn't work with Reich-wing assholes, no mater what the age.

When are Democrats going to learn that?

[sendero]

132. I agree..

... it's unlikely that these morons would change their minds if god appeared in the clouds and told them to.

[Xenotime]

209. Exactly. It's time to get in their faces no matter what the age.

[WinkyDink]

87. "Seniors" are not, by definition, children, and need not be treated as such.

[gort]

98. Then again standing up to ignorance and evil may benefit those around

As opposed to trying to teach those old bastards anything.

I know when I was younger hearing my elders say hateful ignorant things about blacks, latinos, jews and catholics had a strong impact on me because I was taught to respect my elders. They damn near made me a racist, too.

Thankfully those that stood up against them were heard by me and millions of others to teach me tolerance. A lot of them paid with their lives. Killed by people like my elders.

Racists aren't born, they're made.

[Forkboy]

80. Fuck my elders.

Well, not literally...

[MiddleFingerMom]

235. Not literally?

.
.
.
.
Speak for yourself, 'Boy... and get off my damn lawn.
.
.
.

[demwing]

221. What is there to respect about not getting dead yet?

I prefer to respect the respectable, not the fortunate.

[Erose999]

230. The hell of it is our generation will have to care for the Bachmanns and Boheners of the world when

they get old.

[calimary]

2. Well, at least someone is speaking up - after Pox Noise viewers have their say.

Probably the first time a couple of them heard anything even remotely resembling an opposing view.

[elleng]

3. I agree that we can't let people get away with spewing ignorant crap,

but I also think we must set them straight 'nicely,' so they actually learn somethings, and have no excuse to continue to 'ignore.' jmo.

[atreides1]

6. 'Nice' only goes so far

The president has been nice to the Repukes, and all they've done is shit on him!!! jmo.

[elleng]

14. I disagree.

[elocs]

42. Wanting to be nice and to be liked is common to Democrats,

but Republicans don't play by those rules. They play to win. There's already been too much nice by Democrats, too much not speaking up and giving the freepers and the teabaggers a pass to say whatever they like unchallenged.

[elleng]

123. I agree that trying to be nice to professional repugs is foolish, as we've seen recently.

My point is that it pays to enter into polite conversations with 'the little people,' who can, imo, learn somethings and be persuaded to open their eyes.

[Merlot]

11. They're not interested in learning, and they don't understand nice.

To them, "nice" is a red flag that mean "charge" and they will plow into you with no other objective than to crush you.

[elleng]

13. I disagree.

[flyarm]

62. I wholeheartedly disagree!

[femrap]

75. I enjoy using

sarcasm and humor. I like to point and laugh at them....it's fun. And it takes them a long time to figure out that you are ridiculing them....because they are so damn ignorant.

[DBoon]

22. nice = weak in their minds

[elleng]

29. You're calling me 'weak' in the mind?

No idea how education or democracy work, I guess. Too bad.

[arcane1]

33. I think you misunderstood

What I *think* they are saying is that these people would view niceness as a weakness

[Merlot]

34. Agreed - to them nice is a weakness.

and yes, some of them are weak in the mind as well....

[elleng]

37. Gotcha; thanks for the explanation, arcane.

I think that many of 'these' people would respond positively to pleasant, informed interactions, and I also think that if we don't try such, we're ALL doomed. (This includes here at DU!)

[DBoon]

47. yes

they also see in-your-face rudeness as strength

Try listening to AM talk radio and you will see what I mean

[cleanhippie]

206. .

[Francesca9]

69. Why abuse the independent voters?

The reality is that only one or two of ten voters is progressive (or liberal). Four of ten are independent. Nothing progressive can happen unless all of the liberals and most of the independents want this.

[CLANG]

137. I'd love to see the source of your statistics.

[Francesca9]

175. These statistics have been out for decades

Pew Research might have been the most recent poll on this. The poll below is not the one I read these numbers in, that poll focused upon liberal vs conservative rather than R v D.

The Independents decide everything.

May 2009

"Centrism has emerged as a dominant factor in public opinion as the Obama era begins. The political values and core attitudes that the Pew Research Center has monitored since 1987 show little overall ideological movement. Republicans and Democrats are even more divided than in the past, while the growing political middle is steadfastly mixed in its beliefs about government, the free market and other values that underlie views on contemporary issues and policies. Nor are there indications of a continuation of the partisan realignment that began in the Bush years. Both political parties have lost adherents since the election and an increasing number of Americans identify as independents.

Click here to view a full-page Flash display, detailing the 70-year trend in party identification.

The proportion of independents now equals its highest level in 70 years. Owing to defections from the Republican Party, independents are more conservative on several key issues than in the past. While they like and approve of Barack Obama, as a group independents are more skittish than they were two years ago about expanding the social safety net and are reluctant backers of greater government involvement in the private sector. Yet at the same time, they continue to more closely parallel the views of Democrats rather than Republicans on the most divisive core beliefs on social values, religion and national security."

http://people-press.org/report/517/political-values-and-core-attitudes

[Francesca9]

176. An interesting poll - why we elected Bush

http://people-press.org/report/50/

This 1999 poll explains the Bush era and also describes the conditions of 1994 which were a lot like they are now.


Here is 2004 http://people-press.org/report/?pageid=866

Here is where we were as a nation in July
http://people-press.org/report/636/

[DainBramaged]

148. Being 'nice' lost us control of the House and Senate for 12 years

I'll loan you a dollar so you can buy a clue.

[elleng]

151. I've said this, at #123 above:

'I agree that trying to be nice to professional repugs is foolish, as we've seen recently.
My point is that it pays to enter into polite conversations with 'the little people,' who can, imo, learn somethings and be persuaded to open their eyes.'

[DainBramaged]

153. Sigh, pats member on head) You do that, go reason with the 'little people'

(shakes head and wonders if it is really worth the effort).

It's not worth the effort to explain to you.


Nighty nighty.

[elleng]

156. Wouldn't want you to damage your brain. Don't let the bedbugs bite.

:thumbsdown:

[fogonthelake]

4. It is to be both a mosque and a cultural centure.

[Vincardog]

10. IT is to be a cooking school a tennis court and have a prayer room. No more a mosque than a YMCA

with a chapel is a cathedral.

[progressoid]

25. YMCA? As in Young Men's CHRISTIAN Association?

Oh dear, the horror.

[Francesca9]

72. All mosques are cultural centers

All churches are also cultural centers.

[mwb970]

202. No church near me has a swimming pool.

Nor a culinary school. Nor a gym. Nor a performing arts center. Nor a basketball court. Nor a bookstore. Nor art studios. Nor a restaurant.

The proposed Islamic cultural center will have all of these things. That's why they call it a cultural center.

The typical mosque has none of these things. Do the churches near you have these things? I didn't think so. That's why they are called mosques and churches rather than cultural centers. I am sorry that you need to have this explained to you.

:eyes:

[virgogal]

5. Those seniors have a right to their opinion. Mind your own business.

[LiberalFighter]

12. Nobody has a right to spew lies regardless of their age.

When they made their statements within a group they should expect to be challenged when they are wrong.

They have freedom of speech. But so does anyone that challenges another.

[Riftaxe]

31. What lies were they spewing?

It is interesting that the OP never bothered enumerating details of the conversation that he found offensive.

Basically all we got from the OP was "I was an asshole today"...going on the sparse details he has chosen to relay to us, I would tend to agree with his assessment.

[WinkyDink]

91. ??

how we can't let the Muslims get a foothold here and how we can't trust them.

[Stevenmarc]

20. Telling an old fool off doesn't negate their opinion.

If you want to express your opinion in public then be prepared to take the heat that opinion might bring you, otherwise learn to keep your mouth shut. They're old enough to know that.

[sandnsea]

24. No one has the right to be a bigot

If they were ranting about n* ruining the neighborhood, I would hope someone would speak up. It's the same thing. We've got to start standing up against this shit.

[Throd]

65. Everyone has the right to be a bigot.

How they exercise those rights is a different thing.

[jmm]

27. When you talk loud enough to be heard in public you make it everybody's business.

Those seniors are not the only ones with a right to an opinion.

[Kolesar]

28. Silence is golden

I would have farted while walking by.

[elocs]

45. That's what I thought and I wasn't in any way sitting next to them.

They could easily be heard all around the area. I am sure they believe all the birther nonsense and that Obama is a Muslim as well. There is absolutely nothing wrong with being a Muslim, but that changes when you understand the twisted and evil connotation given to the charge in which case Muslim=terrorist.

[d_b]

64. ^

[bulloney]

30. They have a right to their own opinions, but not their own facts.

You keep spewing BS like this among groups of people and you get survey results showing that 70% of the people believe crap that's not true.

I have elderly neighbors who visited my home recently. They're regular viewers of Faux Snooze. One of them made the comment that her daughter, an accountant, will have a very secure job with all of the tax hikes Obama has imposed on this country. Then, she said she's worried about where all that money Obama's spending will come from.

At that point, I had enough. I asked her where was all of this concern about deficit spending when Bush was president. She said Bush didn't spend like Obama is. I replied that the national debt more than doubled under Bush and that we went from budget surpluses under Clinton to record budget deficits under Bush. I told her that I think this kind of talk is largely a smokescreen from people who have a hard time accepting the fact that a Democrat and/or a Black man is our president.

I think she entered the conversation expecting similar opinions from me. When I finished my rant, she and her husband made up some excuse and left.

Fine by me. I don't like hanging around ignorance.

[elocs]

43. Except when they spout off their "opinion" in a public place for all to hear.

Then it is my business. Noise pollution spiked with hate and discrimination as well as outright lies. Only fools keep silent and let evil ideas go unchallenged. When nobody stands up to those spout such things they take it as a confirmation that what they say and believe is the truth.

[Dappleganger]

48. So does the OP.

If a person chooses to spout foolishness in public they better damn well be prepared to take the heat for it. I don't give a fuck who they are. Just because someone is old doesn't give them a free pass at ignorance with no challenge.

[SargeUNN]

66. that knife cuts both ways in case you didn't notice

they have the right to spew lies, and we have the right to counter them. So looks like mined your own business statement is a stupid thing to say when all certainly were involved.

[Warren Stupidity]

82. Huh? A discussion in public is a public discussion.

[WinkyDink]

89. Then they can lower their voices.

[Stevenmarc]

7. So much for age and wisdom

[Unruly]

8. Are you the thought police?

[dkf]

9. I'm sure you did wonders for their views on Muslims.

Do you really think you are doing Muslims a favor?

[cottonseed]

40. Still trolling around with your Jihad against the muslim center?

What a way to spend your time.

[dkf]

52. So now I'm a Muslim jihading against other Muslims?

Seems rather a contradiction.

Ya know what is so funny? You are probably a white male and you are calling me, the atheist Asian female a bigot. I am the epitome of a minority in every way. What a joke.

[CreekDog]

57. since you are calling that poster a white male, I'll say how vigorously you support AZ SB1070

:shrug:

[Malikshah]

59. If one wishes to make bigoted statements, at least get the terminology correct.

Otherwise one looks both willfully stupid along with being a hateful person.

One does not go "jihading;" the use of the term is as pathetic as "jihadi"

Enjoy the crusade. You do know how those turned out, right?

[Starbucks Anarchist]

152. Bigotry doesn't know color, gender or anything else.

It's equal-opportunity lunacy, so your background is no barrier against it.

[Forkboy]

81. Like you care about Muslims.

[Warren Stupidity]

83. which other groups do you openly hate?

[DainBramaged]

127. I see you stuck your foot out the door again

:eyes:

[jberryhill]

16. Depending on the range, volume, and audience of the spew

Were they addressing you?

[femrap]

78. Obviously these oldsters were

being loud...eloc's money is just as green as theirs. His meal at McDonald's shouldn't be disrupted by such rudeness, incivility, nor stupidity.

I say speak up. Go get the manager....I've done that. Tell them to keep it down or I'm leaving and not paying.

People who talk loudly for all a restaurant to hear make me mad. It simply ruins the meal.

[EFerrari]

17. Compulsion is a terrible thing. n/t

[nadinbrzezinski]

18. Some folks do not understand why it is important

to stand up to any form of bigotry. I do, and I applaud you.

[sandnsea]

19. Thank you n/t

[mitchum]

21. Godspeed to them

[BootinUp]

32. lol nt

[CTyankee]

23. Hubby and I are old but at a local diner we had some loud, obnoxious seniors

(all guys) grousing about Obama. I just started talking a little louder about how I liked what Obama was doing. Hubby played along. The other guys heard me and my point was made...only I didn't "address" them...boy, did I walk out smirking!

[Green_Lantern]

26. you did the wrong thing...

Butting into a private discussion is just plain rude for one thing and secondly now a roomful of people possibly see the pro-mosque argument through the lens of seeing your behavior.

I understand your frustration...I have right-wing relatives who make comments to get a reaction and I have to resist because I know they want my reaction.

[CLANG]

138. What if they were talking about assasinating someone?

That wouldn't be a private conversation either in a public place like McDonald's, and I would hope someone hearing it would take some action. The only private conversations are the ones you don't hear.

[Green_Lantern]

171. that's not what I meant and you know it..

If they were talking about killing someone even then interrupting the conversation would be the wrong thing...the right thing would be calling the police.

In the OPs case the people mentioned weren't discussing killing people. The OP was butting into a private discussion which is rude unless the people he yelled at were being obnoxious about it.

Sorry but people shouldn't feel the need to shout others down for saying something they disagree with.

[CLANG]

174. I guess the bottom line for me is:

There are times when it's appropriate to interrupt a conversation, and times when it is not. Some situations are judgment calls whether to interrupt or not. The OP chose to interrupt. I may not have chose to, but I support his right to do so. Now, how he did it, and what his intentions and actions were have already been discussed in this thread. Carry on good Americans!:patriot:

[Green_Lantern]

179. I didn't say he didn't have the right to interrupt..

I said it was rude. Secondly everyone there probably thought the OP was being a jerk.

[CLANG]

186. Yes, that may very well be true.

[socialist_n_TN]

192. I think it's rude to spew bigoted hatred in a public

place within earshot of a roomful of strangers. If somebody's rude, it gives me the right to be rude right back, ESPECIALLY in these circumstances. I'M in the right to intervene.

Another thing. These RW idiots talk like this loudly because ALL OF THEIR FRIENDS THINK THE SAME WAY THEY DO. And that means they can't CONCEIVE of anybody else having a different opinion. If we don't show another opinion then that squishy middle thinks that the RW opinion is the right one. Why? Because nobody countered it. It's our DUTY to speak up. That is unless you're part of the right wing too and agree with the sentiments. Then it would be OK not to say something.

[pipi_k]

193. "If someone is rude it gives me the right to be rude right back"

Questionable, but sort of understandable IF someone is being rude to you and you can't control yourself.


In the above case, the people in question weren't being rude TO anyone. Except maybe someone so self-centered that he thought they were insulting him personally.


This whole "If they're rude, I can be rude right back" business really sounds a lot like a couple of three year olds spitting at each other because "He started it!!! wahhhhhhhh!!!!"

oy...

:eyes:

[socialist_n_TN]

208. I'm a big believer in self defense AND

in defense of others too. This would be one of those "defense of others" categories. IOW, I'm not a knee jerk "liberal" OR a pacifist. If you take a poke at me or my issues, you take the consequences. If it's verbal, I'll respond verbally. If it's physical, I'll respond physically.

And you didn't even take on the point I made about showing an alternative to this type of bigoted bilge that the RW gets away with ALL OF THE FUCKING TIME. I'm FIRMLY convinced that one of the reasons FOR the rise of the RW over the last 3 decades is because the left side of the spectrum didn't offer rebuttals JUST AS LOUDLY as the Right made their points.

In America today and for the last few decades, if you don't make your points loudly and proudly, the squishy middle doesn't believe you. And if they don't believe you, they won't support you leading to the rise of Reagan, Bush I, Bush II, and now the Armey of Teabaggers. If you actually BELIEVE in Leftist positions, SAY IT!

[pipi_k]

219. Confronting others in public doesn't work.

And it was a small group of old men who will probably be dead in less than 5 or 10 years anyway. Although that's apparently not soon enough for some, judging by some of the vile replies scattered throughout this thread.


Anyone who thinks s/he is changing the world by acting like a spoiled two year old has serious issues best handled by a professional.


People don't necessarily have to be jackasses to accomplish things.

[socialist_n_TN]

232. And anybody who thinks that letting RW bilge

go unchallenged in the interest of not being "rude" hasn't been paying attention to the politics of the U.S. of A. for the last 30+ years.

[pipi_k]

243. Go ahead...challenge it...

then come back and tell us all how it worked for ya.

How you changed the world.


Challenging, at the top of one's voice, someone whose opinion isn't going to change is basically an exercise in futility.

As I keep saying...a public temper tantrum.

[Green_Lantern]

224. the OP wasn't defending others

The people in question weren't verbally attacking anyone or making racial or ethnic slurs.

The OP was the one doing the attacking.

Being liberal shouldn't mean being a blowhard.

[Green_Lantern]

223. the OP said nothing about racial slurs or anything like that..

And no it's not our duty to debate every single conservative we overhear saying something.

That reverse psychology crud doesn't work. Minding your own business doesn't mean you agree with them. It means they aren't worth the frustration.

[NickB79]

215. A private discussion loud enough for others to hear in a restaurant is a public discussion

So there was no "butting in."

Secondly: "secondly now a roomful of people possibly see the pro-mosque argument through the lens of seeing your behavior"

As opposed to the roomful of people seeing it through the lens of the anti-mosque bigots that were talking loud enough for other patrons to hear their lies?

[Green_Lantern]

226. hearing someone sitting at a booth behind you in McDs

Doesn't require them to be talking loud at all.

They still weren't talking to the OP for one and secondly the OP wasn't engaging in conversation but shouting them down.

[socialist_n_TN]

229. Your last paragraph sums it up...........

We don't confront bigotry to change a bigot's pea brain, we confront bigotry to give an ALTERNATIVE to those who don't pay attention otherwise. So that they know there ARE other viewpoints.

[Froward69]

35. DID the same thing in a bar

a "Friend of mine started spewing all that BS too.

I went off saying "I can't believe YOU of all people fell for that bigoted BS"

lost another friend.

[CLANG]

139. Same thing happened to me last night

My wife's cousin and brother started to double-team me with Fox/Limbaugh talking points and I eventually just told them what I REALLY thought of them, and abruptly left the bar. Fuck them! I don't care if they are my wife's relatives or not - FUCK THEM!

[Cid_B]

36. Mind your own business nosy...

No one asked you...

Oh wait.. you were right and they were wrong so its ok? Guess what. They thought the same thing about the ignorant jerk who interrupted them.

[Greyhound]

39. "All that is required for evil to triumph..." n/t

[hobbit709]

46. +10

[pipi_k]

50. Yeah...watch out for the Evil Senior Citizens

They might be suffering from some form of dementia, but hey...REAL men make it a point to challenge them, because you just never know...


Evil old farts planning and plotting.


Today it's the local local fast food joint...

Tomorrow, they'll be trying to conquer all the nursing homes...rioting in the streets with their walkers and canes. Waging war on anyone under the age of 65.

Old people. The REAL danger in our society

:eyes:

[Greyhound]

51. I think you mis-interpreted my meaning. n/t

[pipi_k]

53. Sorry...easy enough to do if there are no other cues to go on...

:shrug:

[AlinPA]

54. When they are watching Fox "news" and voting they are a problem.

[pipi_k]

100. And acting like a jerk to them isn't going to SOLVE the "problem" either n/t

[Bluenorthwest]

55. Look at what you think of the older folk...

I assume that Dick Cheney is just an old fart, who could not hurt anybody? Old people own this society, to a huge degree. The youthful Senate. Nancy Pelosi is 70 or so. I guess she's weak and ineffectual. I know a guy who is 89 and he collects rent from poor folk without mercy, and enjoys it. Bernie Madoff, how old? Over 70 when he did, I guess according to you, no damage to anyone at all.
Get real. Age is not powerlessness, poverty is.

[pipi_k]

104. The old people you speak of are already in the public sector

A bunch of old guys shooting the shit in McDonalds are just that. A bunch of old guys shooting the shit with each other, minding their own business.

The fact that someone didn't like what they were saying doesn't give that person the right to act like a jerk.



Oh, and about age not being powerlessness... try telling that to hundreds of thousands of abused elders who can't fight back.

There's no way for them to rise above, or escape from, that abuse on their own.


Poverty, at least, gives someone the chance to rise above it, as many many people who have been poor have already done.

[CLANG]

140. Then let them wallow in their hatred. I hope it kills them.

Yes, I really do.

[pipi_k]

164. "Let them wallow in their hatred. I hope it kills them"....

I can definitely feel the love here...

yessir...

:+

[CLANG]

166. Thank you for that useful comment.

[pipi_k]

168. You're welcome...just thought I would point out

the irony of wishing something hateful on people you accuse of being full of hate.

[CLANG]

172. You're right, I overreacted

I'd be happy if they all got so sick that they couldn't vote in November, but then miraculously recover the next day.

[Obamanaut]

38. Park51, the new name for the project in question, has a website -

http://www.park51.org/facilities.htm

“a mosque, intended to be run separately from Park51 but open to and accessible to all members, visitors and our New York community”

They think they are going to include a mosque among the facilities. Imagine! Maybe the old man was right, about multiple things.

[Permanut]

44. In my experience

"these people", as Merlot says, don't understand nice, and they don't have pleasant conversations - at least with those who disagree; and they want to crush you, to win, to WIN. I'm coming up 65 this year, I don't know if that qualifies me as an elder yet, but I've been around the track a few times, and I don't expect to get respect from anyone without earning it. Age has nothing to do with it. Seems like elocs was exercising a first amendment right.

[pipi_k]

49. So, basically they were having a conversation amongst themselves

and you jumped in to "educate" them.

How very very rude.


I don't care if they were claiming the moon is made of cheese and the earth is flat.


I don't care if they were talking loudly enough for the whole place to hear them. If they were senior citizens, they were doing it because....duhhhh....they have hearing problems.


They're entitled to their opinions no matter how ignorant you think they are. They're even entitled to (GASP!!!) their own "facts". You think you changed their minds? No. All you did was make them believe even MORE that people on this side of the political spectrum are ignorant, rude scumbuckets.

Thanks a lot.

[Bluenorthwest]

56. you are just wrong. And ageist as hell by the way.

There is simply nothing that says anyone being loud in public can not be addressed, nothing at all. If I hear it, I get to respond if I wish, the end. Don't like it, stop shouting.
I mean, would you sit and listen to abusive hate speech of other kinds to avoid being rude? Dr Laura style? Is it rude to interrupt those calling violence against others? Calling out minorities for discrimination? Should we, as a society, allow kids to hear that uncontested? I think not.

[pipi_k]

109. "Ageist"...yeah, OK

You do know, don't you, that hearing problems start way before the age of retirement, right?

That's not "ageist". It's fact.

So a bunch of old guys talking loudly with each other is not unusual. Also, there's the possibility that these guys held jobs that damaged their hearing. One of my BILs was a truck driver who always talks loudly because his hearing is damaged. We, in turn, have to talk loudly enough for him to hear us.

So if we're in public (in a fast food place that's probably noisy anyway) and we have to speak up, people think they have the right to interfere in the conversation?

Wow. The rudeness is just amazing.

But whatever. People are always free to counter whatever "hate speech" they may hear, but it might behoove them to sit down and discuss the issues calmly and rationally instead of making a scene and looking like total assholes.

I'm quite sure the OP didn't change any minds that day, and maybe that's not even the goal with some people. Maybe they just like acting out in public like spoiled two year olds.

:shrug:

[noamnety]

227. Thank you for bring that perspective to the thread.

I've had a few older family members with hearing problems. We did have to talk loudly around them. It's embarrassing for me, especially out in public, but it's more rude to go out to eat with them and just exclude them from the conversation.

I've also gone out with a coworker who was deaf - and people complained because we were using sign language! They said it was distracting. I guess they were put off that we were having a conversation they couldn't eavesdrop on!

There's no pleasing all people.

[pipi_k]

244. This one of the reasons why I sometimes hate being in public..

I'm 57 and have hearing loss in my left ear. Sometimes it's partial, sometimes it's almost total. Ear problems since childhood.

I sometimes talk loudly because I can't hear how loud my voice is, and I keep having to ask other people "WHAT??? WHAT???" In a noisy restaurant or something, it's nearly impossible to deal with.



As far as the sign language goes, I'll bet it bothered people for the same reason that people speaking their native language in public does...people think the "speakers" are talking about THEM. ;)

[gbate]

67. Agreed. The phrase MYOB comes to mind.

[Francesca9]

177. The OP just keeps helping those like Bush & Cheney

This sort of rudeness and intolerance ensures that independents don't vote for Democrats.

[BrklynLiberal]

58. Good for you. Having the courage of your principles is admirable and should be

encouraged. I think you did the right thing.

[krispos42]

60. "That may well be, sir, but I'm not an ignorant asshole"

That's my knee-jerk response to the old guy. :hi:

[Vinnie From Indy]

61. It is always best to

end these types of encounters with a very loud exclamation to the group that you "are not gonna just sit there and let these people bad mouth the United States of America"! Then it is critical that you walk out with your head held high while humming the Battle Hymn of the Republic.

[dickthegrouch]

63. Thank you, Elocs

There is a song by Ron Romanovsky and Paul Phillips that you might enjoy "Be Political not Polite" http://romanovskyandphillips.com/politicallyrics.htm#bepolitical . I wish more people would adhere to the motion that one MUST speak up about falsehood.

There is another thread just today http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x8987193 about how the corrupt get away with so much destruction and death, you are helping to prevent them. We applaud you.

[lunatica]

68. Good for you! Silence is the biggest enabler

[AnArmyVeteran]

70. (((((APPLAUSE)))))

Good for you. I hear people everywhere now saying insane things in public. I can't believe the level of complete ignorance and hate in our country. I confronted a couple of conservative Christians (both were wearing crosses) who were repeating Beck word for word and I asked them "What would you think of someone who violated one of the 10 Commandments every day?". They told me they don't associate with sinners like that. Then I told them, "Glenn Beck and every other right wing talk show host bears false witness every day they are on the air and they are making fortunes violating one of the 10 Commandments". The couple paused a moment to let it sink in and then just left looking bewildered. I'm sure they didn't believe me but I'm glad I told them the truth about their radio heroes. It's sad how conservative extremists never fact check what they hear from right wing radio or faux news. They are not part of a political movement. They are part of a cult and they exhibit all of the signs of cult members, like blind belief and never questioning their leaders.

In the short time I listened to them they were full of condemnation and judgement toward President Obama and democrats, and although I suppose they were Christians because of the crosses they wore, they certainly didn't sound like Christians.

[Imajika]

73. Please stop with the "it isn't a mosque" nonsense...

"You know, all the lies about the mosque that isn't a mosque"

It is a community center with a mosque in it. Everyone knows one of its primary functions will be a place of worship. The Christian church my family belongs to is also a huge community center with classrooms, meeting rooms, a big area for eating, etc - but at its core is a church. Trying to claim Park51 it isn't really a mosque is not fooling anyone.

Yes, it is not JUST a mosque, but there will be a mosque on this site so any arguments for or against a mosque at this location are on point.

Saying that, I'm sure we agree on the idea that there is nothing wrong with building Cordoba House on this location. The opposition in my opinion is mostly silly, though I can understand that many people are suspicious enough of Islam to react wrongly here.

Your interrupting a private conversation and "calling out" 3 senior citizens likely had just the opposite effect from what you intended. If at the end they thought of you as an asshole, you probably just hardened their opposition to Park51. In life, you can be completely correct about an issue and end up offending or irritating your opponents so much that not only do you not bring them around to your point of view, you actually drive them deeper into the other camp.

You would have been more effective to have either said nothing, or perhaps politely ask why the 3 senior citizens had the opinion they were expressing. If they felt like responding to you, and only AFTER hearing them out, expressing a friendly opposing opinion MIGHT have had some chance of changing their mind.

Ever argue with a friend or family member. Scream at them, embarrass them, shout them down, be rude to them, etc, and it will only strengthen their belief that they are right - if for no other reason than to spite you. Sure, they may shut up in your presence, but you won't have changed anyone's mind. Now try to listen to them, give them some credit for anything accurate they say, be reasonable and polite, and after giving them a chance to express themselves provide your opinion and the information to back it up. I think you'll find the reaction will be better and you just might change some opinions. Remember, you have to let people come to conclusions because they chose to. They tend to have to think it was their own thought process that caused them to believe one way or the other. You really can't bully people into holding your opinions.

[femrap]

74. I'd a told him that

he was bigger and dirtier and dumber asshole than me.

I'm very happy that you spoke up....we need more of this.

I usually tell them: 'Hey I bet you guys are really happy that there isn't a law against being Stupid.' It takes them forever to figure out that you've insulted them.

[Imajika]

76. And how does that change anyone's mind?

"I usually tell them: 'Hey I bet you guys are really happy that there isn't a law against being Stupid.' It takes them forever to figure out that you've insulted them."

So aside from making yourself feel clever, what do you accomplish when you call them stupid? Do you think you persuade anyone at all to rethink their views when you do that?

Your actually making the stupid even worse. But I guess what matters here is you feel good about insulting them.

[femrap]

85. You would be very surprised as

to how many people have NEVER questioned the beliefs they have grown up with. NEVER. I'll ask them: 'Have you ever looked at it from someone else's view?'

Their papas & mamas were repugnants, their friends are repugnants, their church is repugnant, they marry a repugnant and it is an endless cycle that reinforces itself.

They never question WHY they think they way they do.

You must be quite lucky to live in such an enlightened area of the world where you don't see this.

[Imajika]

97. No, I see it just fine...

...what I am saying is calling them stupid or otherwise insulting them does NOT persuade people to question their way of thinking at all. It actually reinforces it. If you have a different opinion and come off as a jerk, it just reinforces in people the idea that those whom don't agree with them are completely wrong. You are causing them to associate a new and different viewpoint with offensive behavior.

[femrap]

107. Yes, I got what you said.

So they can be offensive and I have to be nice or silent. Yep. That works.

What do you do ..... take them to therapy and pay for it?

Listen, the people I've dealt with don't get 'nice.' I'm lucky I haven't been shot. At least it would be in the back and I wouldn't have seen it coming.

At least they know I'm not afraid of their willfully ignorant asses. I stand up for what I believe. And that at least deserves a tad of respect even from the dumb fuck bigots/neocons/misogynists.

I'm done with this.

Go have yourself a fine Saturday.

[DainBramaged]

95. YOU AREN'T CHANGING THESE SCUMBAGS MINDS

One of these days you folks will understand total defeat is the only way to handle these brickheads.


WHY DO YOU THINK THEY BELIEVE FAUX?????????????????

[Imajika]

101. Opinion is not static...

People change their mind ALL the time. Attitudes change, it doesn't happen fast but it DOES happen.

Screaming, insulting, belittling, etc do not help. When directly talking with a person or people who disagree with you, calm, rational discussion can be influential. When people see an otherwise nice, optimistic, pleasant person presenting a different point of view some will listen. They may not change their mind on the spot, but they may begin to associate this new idea with a person they perceive as reasonable. This often begins to alter their view on the subject. If you call someone stupid and belittle them they will go away from the interaction more sure they are right than ever.

You are expressing the impatient and wrong view that because a certain percentage of people think something this very day, that those same people wont think something entirely different 5 years from now.

This is how progress happens.

[DainBramaged]

102. Bullshit, we've been trying to change their minds since Nixxon was elected

and we've FAILED MISERABLY. You folks just don't get it and never will. We've been in control for about 3 years TOTAL since the 60's, and you want to play nice?


Fools wear rose coloured glasses. And I don't like the colour rose.

[Imajika]

103. You are making no sense...

People DO change their opinion over time. Otherwise, we would live in a static world where attitudes never change - and we quite clearly do not.

The question is how best to change opinion. I assume your trying to argue that confrontation is the best method, yet at the same time you are claiming that opinions don't change at all. If you were right, why bother with any method of persuasion?

No, it just sounds like you are angry and maybe bitter that people don't come around to your point of view faster. Life just doesn't work on your timetable.

[DainBramaged]

106. Yup, figures, I'm making no sense. Life doesn't work on your timetable either

Stay in your little world of wonderment and naivety. I don't want any part of it. I started FIGHTING the Puke flood a long time ago, while folks like yourself stayed on the sidelines yelling play nice.


TWO generations of Pukes have ruined our Country, and you are still trying to play chess with them.


We're done.

[socialist_n_TN]

211. You're not TRYING to convert THEM..............

That's an impossibility for the lunitic RW fringe. What you're doing is providing an ALTERNATIVE viewpoint for any undecided and/or unpolitical squishy middletons that are listening.

If all the middle ever hear is RW talking points, i.e., LIES, all of the time, then that's what they believe is true because it's never rebutted. COUNTER THOSE TALKING POINTS (LIES) AT EVERY OPPORTUNITY. Do it for the children, er the non political.

[NYC Liberal]

77. I'm glad you did. If you spout crap in public, be prepared to

get called on it.

If I talk politics in public, I'm fine with someone challenging me on it.

[Morning Dew]

79. The codgers may be right!

I mean, Christians have a foothold here and that's not turning out so great.

[DainBramaged]

86. Liberals: "play nice boys", Republicans: "fuck you we want to win, die Liberal fool".

One of these days you folks will get it and they will be a forgotten stain on the landscape. Until then, playing nice gets us shit.

[Odin2005]

88. "Mind your own business" = letting the bigots have their way.

If that makes me a rude asshole, so be it!

[gbate]

93. You can't teach an old dog.

The old codgers at Mickey Dee's aren't the ones in charge of building the mosque/community center, whathaveyou. You just can't change bigots.

[woo me with science]

90. And then you just had to seek praise here. nt

[LostinVA]

92. +1

[DainBramaged]

94. Hide the thread, ignore the author, ignore me, cheer for the Scumbag Reich-wing

Every little victory needs to be cheered.


Once again,

some of you will never figure it out. You'll sit and wring your hands and criticize those who fight back, but then when we lose yet another election to these scum, you'll be the first to complain enough wasn't done.

[woo me with science]

105. Of course!

Berating old people at McDonald's is always my first choice strategy for making the world a better place.

:headbang: :yourock: :fistbump: :patriot:

[DainBramaged]

108. They tell that shit to their Grandkids and a whole new generation of assholes is raised

Go fight a paper bag, it seems to be the style of too many who consider themselves too good for the fight.


It appears too many of you still think the Pukes play nice. Or else you are sympathizing with their side, who knows?

[pipi_k]

110. And you know what?

They're STILL going to "tell that shit to their grandkids".


Anybody who thinks that acting like an asshole to someone else will change that person's mind has got to be delusional. In fact, what will likely happen is that the other person will cling even MORE stubbornly to his opinion.

What got accomplished:

A spoiled brat got to stage a tantrum in a public place.

[DainBramaged]

112. And Liberals again shut up because a few of you want to remain silent while the Pukes take over agai...

I see a lot of people here who are afraid to stand up for what they believe, and that is it in a nutshell.


If you don't have the guts to confront the evil in the world, roll up in a ball and knit.

Or maybe sympathy with their spew is the real reason for your lecture on public behaviour/

Who knows. All I know is your way doesn't work, ask Harry Reid or the President about being nice, sweet, non confrontational and Bipartisan.

Have a 'nice' day sweetie pie. :puke:

[woo me with science]

115. You are very brave

to confront the old people!

:patriot:

[DainBramaged]

117. You are very ignored

go bait someone else, you're done.


My suspicions have been confirmed. Oh and Merry Christmas, but insert some other letters.

[woo me with science]

120. But I AGREE with you!!!!!!!

You are the bravest of all! :yourock: :headbang: :yourock: :headbang: :yourock: :fistbump:

[pipi_k]

128. oh, now you've done it...

Maybe you should have disagreed...

[pipi_k]

118. There's standing up for what one believes in, and then

there's acting like a complete asshole in public to a bunch of old guys who were minding their own business, albeit a little loudly, for whatever reason.


Like a couple of people have already said, and which some here can't seem to understand...

You gather more flies with honey than with vinegar.


Nobody changed anybody's mind that day.


All that got accomplished was that someone got to feel like a MAN by confronting a bunch of old guys in McDonalds.

What bravery.

:eyes:

[DainBramaged]

121. we haven't gathered nothing but horseflies in the past 30 years, and you don't get it

And you think you're going to accomplish anything on DU? real brave soul you are.


You people make me sick. Either you really are brain dead about reality and politics, or you simply sympathize with them.

Anyway, go lecture someone else, I'm going to go find an old lady to kick down some stairs.

:sarcasm:


Merry Christmas to you to.

[pipi_k]

130. I don't think ANYONE will accomplish anything on DU alone

and that is not my point.


My point is, you don't accomplish shit by being nasty to people. You don't accomplish anything by having public temper tantrums.

You want to change the world?

Then act like a rational adult.


I'm sorry people like me "make you sick".

Must be difficult being reminded that calm, rational adult behavior is an asset.

[DainBramaged]

131. calm, rational adult behavior is an asset when dealing with calm, rational people

And continuing to join in with the juvenile behavior of one recently ignored member shows me you're full of shit.


Cya

[woo me with science]

142. I am on YOUR side!

We are a team!!!!
:fistbump:

[pipi_k]

157. People who can dish it out had better be able to take it

I'm sure the irony of this whole interchange has gone by unnoticed.


I'm passionate about leaving old people the fuck alone. I don't care what they say or do. Leave them alone. That's number one.

Number two. If I'm having a conversation, even in a public place, and someone comes over and starts yelling and screaming at me, that person is a fucking asshole. Period. Passionate about that, too.


So those are my opinions. They're obviously not yours, but I tried to change your mind using basically the same tactics many others think are OK to use on those who hold opinions they think are bullshit.

Did my tactics change your mind?

No. HELL NO. As I knew would be the case.

All I got to do was be a wise ass, and you are left holding the same opinions you started with. Probably with even more fervor than ever.

So my conclusion is that people who think they're "standing up for" whatever by acting like assholes aren't really trying to change anyone's mind at all.

They're just trying to spew a lot of hatred. To make themselves feel better. To make themselves believe they're "changing the world".

They truth is, they haven't changed shit.

[DainBramaged]

173. Jesus let it fucking go, you just got to get in the last goddamn word

shit, no wonder we're in trouble as a Party. Go lecture somebody who fucking gives a shit.


Who has the problem?

[Francesca9]

178. You want Democrats to be assholes?

This is your strategic plan, millions of rude and confrontative assholes yelling at the independents (whose votes they hope to attract?)

Abusing old people is the path to success? Would spitting on them work even better?

Well, I disagree.

[DainBramaged]

181. Good for you

I AM an old person, and I don't give a shit what you think.


So new, so ignored.

[woo me with science]

183. Noooooooooo!

Billy Mumy wishes another one into the cornfield!

:nopity: :rofl:

[pipi_k]

184. Har har!!!

Someone who can't let it go jumps on me to "let it go" and then tries to have the last word while accusing me of wanting to have the last word.

Thanks for the laugh.

No...really. Thanks for the laugh. :rofl:

[socialist_n_TN]

212. In confronting bigots you're not trying to convert them

What you're trying to do is show the squishy middle that there's an ALTERNATIVE that's believed in just as passionately by it's adherents as the bigotry is by bigots.

[LanternWaste]

204. You're referring to yelling at the elderly...?

"And continuing to join in with the juvenile behavior..."

You're referring of course to yelling at the elderly because they hold a different political opinion...?

[woo me with science]

113. You are very tough!

I am sure you and the OP will make them think twice!! I am sure they will never vote that way again!!!! Or talk to kids about it!!!!!!

Thank you for stopping them!!!!!

Also, this is just an idea! I hear there are a lot of old people at IHOP too! You should add it to your list!!!!

Keep up the good work!!!!!!!

:headbang: :yourock: :yourock: :headbang: :fistbump: :yourock: :patriot: :patriot: :patriot:

[pipi_k]

122. Forget McD's and IHOP....

I say go right to the source...the hotbed of insurrection...

The Evil Nursing Home. :scared:


Those places are chock full of old people to yell at.


:woohoo:

[woo me with science]

143. Good idea!

I am taking cleats!!!!!

:patriot:

[woo me with science]

111. heh. nt

[pipi_k]

114. Oh, me too...

Sometimes I even knock them to the floor and kick them a few times for good measure.


I figure I have about 300 more old codgers to beat up until world hunger is ended...



:+

[woo me with science]

116. I am proud of you!!!!!

Thank you for protecting America!!!!!! :patriot: :patriot: :patriot: :patriot: :patriot: :patriot: :patriot: :patriot:

[pipi_k]

124. Thank you...

Now, how do I get my Medal of Honor?



:7

[amandabeech]

149. I have a can of diet ginger ale sinking into my keyborad just now. n/t

[Cid_B]

169. That's the crux of it...

Someone wasn't hugged enough as a child... Maybe you didn't breast feed and bond properly...

First randomly jump in someone else's conversation to tell them your opinion (Oh, I mean "facts") and then come here for a digital pat on the head.

What a good boy!

[proteus_lives]

197. That's why I rarely these "encounters" actually happened.

[steve2470]

96. Changing minds with a calm rational discussion is difficult enough, if not impossible at times.

You made your point. You took a stand. Were any minds changed ? I seriously doubt it. It's possible, but I doubt it.

[Hawkowl]

99. Awesome!

This is EXACTLY what we need to do! Call everybody out whenever and wherever we can! Change must come from us- person to person, mano a mano. It is the only way change is going to happen.

[Douglas Carpenter]

119. it is good to speak up and make bigotry unacceptable. Imagine if more people in 1930's

Europe spoke up then and made anti-Semites unacceptable.

This is not just a matter of one Community Center with a mosque. There are campaigns against mosques all across America right now.

Right now there is a nationwide campaign of anti-Muslim hysteria being whooped up by right-wing politicians, the crazy wing of fundamentalist Christianity and the likes of Newsmax and Fox News. There is a grave danger of this hysteria becoming - if it has not already - completely mainstream discourse in American society.

This hysteria has dangerous ramifications, not only for the American-Muslim community but for the entirety of society and the direction it is going. The 20th Century has surely shown that hate campaigns are not controllable and can and do lead society down extremely self-destructive paths.

This hysteria has even more dangerous ramifications for American foreign policy.

There are right-wing religious crazies in America who now pretty much dominate the Republican Party and there are the neoconservatives who are bent on promoting a permanent American war in the Middle East and I believe they must be stopped or America and the whole world will experience a catastrophe beyond imagination. The religious crazies believe they must help facilitate the battle of Armageddon in order to usher in the second coming of Christ. This is not a small marginal group of kooks. This is a group who are to a large degree now calling the shots in the Republican Party while their allies the neoconservatives work out the details.

Opposing this hysteria and not allowing this hysteria to become mainstream discourse is one of the most important stands any concerned person can take - The consequences of this hysteria growing and becoming even more mainstream are just too dire.

[DainBramaged]

126. Some here think we should sit down, play chess with them, give them tea with honey

while the Pukes undermine the Country.


Fools all. We can't win an election by being nice, just ask the current crop of 'retirees' in Congress who see the writing on the wall. They got shouted down and decided that being confronted was not worth it.

Find me more Alan Graysons and I'll show you what a real Democratic party looks like.

[Douglas Carpenter]

129. well, granted - being a bit reserved myself - my style would have been different

but we are now witnessing a situation where 1930's level bigotry is socially acceptable - in some liberal circles bigotry against Muslims is treated as one of those issues where reasonable people can disagree. This is a very grave and dangerous situation, if American society continues down this path and it must be stopped. Some like the OP choose a more direct route then my own - but I applaud them nonetheless. Because this is such a dangerous situation and it must be stopped - the consequences are just too dire.

[pipi_k]

133. no, that's what YOU think we're thinking

The message, again, is that people don't get anywhere...especially against a bunch of old guys in McDonalds...by acting like an asshole.


Maybe we, and our government, should act more like this....


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1xCn3ZYTU0Y


Imagine the respect we'd get

[Douglas Carpenter]

136. speak up with a soft tone with politeness and reason then - just please speak up

it is important that everyone speak up. The situation is just too dangerous to remain silent. Some peoples style is aggressive. Some peoples style is more gentle. But whatever the style, the time is now to speak up.

[DainBramaged]

144. The problem with the soft tone crowd is that they turn and run every time

The Pukes play to win, at every turn. Those who think speaking 'rationally and calmly' usually don't have the guts to speak at all. I;ve seen it too many times. Fear, it makes them powerless in the face of the 'top dog'. They don't know how to deal with them because THEY AREN'T LIKE THEM AND NEVER WILL BE.


Their manta is ALWAYS, 'I didn't want to get involved".

Brave pepople lecturing us on how to behave, while we won control of all three branches of Government for the first time in how many decades?


I'll stick to my method of confrontation. And those of you here who don't like it can kiss my wrinkled old ass.

[Obamanaut]

155. Bravely typed. nt

[pipi_k]

163. Oh shit, why didn't you say so in the first place???

I didn't know "we" control all three branches of the government for the first time in ages because the Warriors among us are out there screeching at old people in restaurants and women with kids in the checkout lines...

damn. I am so embarrassed. :blush:

[NickB79]

216. "We" don't control all three branches of government

Because almost no one in government today supports liberal policies. Sure, we have plenty of men and women who slap a great big "D" on their name, but their actions and votes betray them.

[pipi_k]

218. Hey, don't look at me...I didn't say it first...

:+

[Obamanaut]

125. I wonder why we never read subject lines about telling '3 burly guys with

17" arms' that they were spewing ignorant crap.

It's always an old guy in the checkout line who was talking to the old guy in front of him, or something similar.

[pipi_k]

135. Well, now that you mention it...

you're right.

It's always someone who's not going to pound the rude person's ass into the ground.

An old guy. A mom with a kid. Two old ladies.


Never somebody who looks like a linebacker....


:+

[DainBramaged]

150. Go reason with this asshole.

bunchick (4 posts) Sat Aug-21-10 04:59 PM
Response to Original message
35. I can't donate either :(
But hey...at least King Obama & Queen Michelle are having a great time on all their vacations!
Many days I feel like they are so disconnected from the reality of the common folks suffering
as much as we are. Vote for Obama next time around? NO! We need a REAL President...not royalty!

[pipi_k]

159. Why would I want to waste my time?

If reason doesn't work, then why the hell would anyone think that yelling and screaming and acting like a spoiled brat is going to work either?

If arguing with Republicans and Freeper types is your mission in life, then go for it.

Just don't try to delude yourself into believing that you're changing anyone's opinion.

Because you're not.

[DainBramaged]

165. You aren't changing their minds just like they aren't changing yours

unless of course you are of like mind......


You have been fun. You're why guys like Harry Reid fail, because he like you think reason works.



Fools.

[pipi_k]

167. Like I said...

One should always try reason first.


If that doesn't work, then nothing will.



And screaming, shouting, carrying on, and having a temper tantrum over an issue...and insisting that's a fine way of changing someone's mind when it doesn't work...that's just a lot of inner anger and hatred being directed toward someone else.

[Francesca9]

180. You want Harry Reid to be more rude to old people?

This is your strategic plan?

Hysterical assholes verbally assaulting the elderly?

Everyone watching will then want to vote asshole?

[Cleita]

146. Well, you don't need to do stupid as well. n/t

[LostinVA]

205. Or a woman

[Yo_Mama]

134. Sigh

Ask yourself "What would Martin Luther King do?"

I don't blame you at all for wanting to express your opinions, but one does not build respect for others by showing disrespect. If you want to change bigoted views, start by giving people respect and then challenging their views.

I have had very close Muslim friends, none of whom is at all likely to suddenly start killing people. But the truth is that some Muslims will indeed see this project as a sign of victory and a joyous celebration of an act of mass murder. And one of my Muslim friends said she wouldn't be caught dead in the place because of that fact.

So the oldsters weren't entirely wrong. Nonetheless, I think that we should not try to stop it. The FBI and CIA will get a lot of clues to terrorists from those who frequent it.

Indeed, I think that while the act of building it THERE is unwise by the people involved, the act of letting it be built is our society's joyous celebration of the decision of our society not to judge people on suspicion but rather to judge them by their deeds alone. That is called justice.

Living in a free and just society requires some courage and farsightedness.

PS: Quite a few American Muslims aren't in favor of it. Look at some of the info on the Wikipedia entry:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Park51

But I maintain that the Muslims opposed don't have the right to block this either. Our society is built on the concept that we will let people be stupid and insensitive in the name of freedom. They do not, however, have the right to be criminals. The builders aren't criminals and whether they offend anyone does not alter their right to build it.

[MilesColtrane]

141. I wouldn't have done that.

I'm not a buttinsky.

Maybe if you had walked over and politely introduced yourself, then saying that you couldn't help overhear their conversation, ask to join them.

THEN school them.

The only thing you accomplished was to make yourself feel righteous.

[Cleita]

145. We need to keep it up and I'm elderly myself.

I usually don't hesitate to correct misinformation if I hear it. I have been called an ass and told to mind my own business too, but to remain silent would allow the lie to be perpetuated one more time. I believe I have shut many of them up permanently even though they didn't like it at the time. And then there are the politics police who come around and say that they don't like politics spoken in public to which I answer then why do you only let the Fox News version to be spoken and no one says a word?

[AngryAmish]

147. You should have pissed in a cup and threw it in their faces

A good piss-soaking will teach them for being racist assholes.

[Obamanaut]

154. But use discretion. Keyboard warriors should only take this actiion against

the elderly/infirm. A big burly guy might take offense and retaliate.

Oh, and peeing in a cup in a fast food restaurant might get one placed on a sex offender list.

[Quantess]

158. Yes, and I'm surprised that the OP didn't think of it himself.

I figure that's what most people would have done in this situation.

[pipi_k]

160. Not necessarily...

I would have taken a big dump right in the middle of their table.

All over their McNuggets and fries.

[47of74]

161. May I take a moment...

...and offer my own personal thumbs up!

[lynne]

170. I'm not a fan of rudeness towards anyone, including Senior Citizens -

- there are numerous ways to make your point politely in a public setting, especially when interjecting yourself into someone else's private conversation.

"Calling them out in front of the entire room" isn't my idea of polite. Personally, I think that rude actions does any cause more harm than good as it associates good ideas and intent with the callous and rude way in which they were broadcast.

Everyone that witnessed this little event will associate your statement and viewpoint with the "asshole in McDonald's". Great way to prove a point and strengthen your position. :crazy:

[Rosa Luxemburg]

182. At least it will stand out in their tiny minds?

nothing like putting people straight.

[lynne]

195. Actually, it only served to confirm their beliefs and opinions -

- as he negated the validity of his argument with his actions. Agree that there's nothing like "putting people straight" provided it is done in such a manner as to provide them with the facts in a non-offending way so that they may actually listen to and consider the information.

The way this was handled only guarantees that they'll have a big laugh about the "crazy jerk at McDonald's" amongst their friends at Bingo.

[DainBramaged]

185. Well the DU politeness police have thoroughly had their say here

And just like we do every election going back to Al Gore refusing to fight, being polite and logical, we lose, meanwhile the Pukes will win.


You folks keep trying to reason with these brickheads. The people BEHIND them poisoning their minds KNOW we as a party are worthless and weak, and know you don't know how to fight. And from what I see in this thread, we never will. Keep lecturing those of us who don't want to put up with the bullshit. You'll accomplish a lot. Know why the Pukes kill us in the media, because we don't know how to respond, we blink and say " oh please Mr. Republican, let's reason this out, let's talk logically". All the while the press is manipulated by the MSM and President Obama looks like shit at every turn, and they'll steal another election. And some have way too much to say about being nice to Republicans, which makes me wonder what their purpose here really is.


You are what you are, and you don't deserve to run the country. You nake me sick. :puke:

[pipi_k]

187. You've carried this way beyond what it started out to be...

which was someone intruding on what a bunch of old guys may have assumed/hoped was a private conversation, yelling and ranting and in general making a fool of himself in public because he didn't agree with their POV.


Now it's somehow morphed into this huge political death knell because some of us don't believe public rudeness...especially to senior citizens who have EARNED THE RIGHT to be free from assholes for the rest of their remaining years...is appropriate.


There is never a justification for rudeness. Ever.

Democrats don't lose because we're "too polite".

Democrats lose because too many people are unable to hold two conflicting ideas in their heads at the same time. Many people don't want to question their Faith, and they don't want to question their political beliefs. So they choose the side that doesn't tax their limited abilities to see more than one side. And that is one of the main differences between, for example, sites like DU and Freeperville.

People disagree here. They see shades of gray. Well, most do, anyway.

Freeperville is generally everyone thinking the same way. Not questioning anything they think or hear or see.

Don't blame Democrats for the inability of a great many Americans to see more than one viewpoint at a time.

[DainBramaged]

188. "There is never a justification for rudeness. Ever."

Yes there is and you're a shining example of the need. Go fucking lecture the Reich-wing.


Merry Christmas.

[pipi_k]

191. Rude? I was trying to be funny.

I'm sorry you saw it as "rudeness", although I suspect that anyone who doesn't agree with you is also guilty of being "rude", no matter how nicely they try to disagree.

If I'm so "rude", why don't you just ignore me?

[socialist_n_TN]

214. I'm pretty damn close to being a "senior citizen" myself.

Haven't I earned the right to be free of BIGOTED assholes for the rest of MY life? I've put up with THREE FUCKING DECADES of RW BULLSHIT being spewed UNCHALLENGED everywhere and I'm fucking SICK TO DEATH OF IT.

I've got biracial neices and nephews on BOTH sides of my family. I don't want them to have to go through what half of their ancestors had to go through. I had HOPED we'd taken care of that in the 60s, but bigotry never sleeps, it just lies in wait. Ergo, it MUST BE CHALLENGED every time it raises it's head.

[Touchdown]

189. How do you do it? I posted an Anti-war rant that had McD's in it...

And all the responses were about how McDonalds kills people. More than the war?:wtf:

[Vincevega]

190. Good for u

Something tells me they are some of the same people who believed in the whole death panel, the "keep your govt out of my medicare" crowd

[Donald Ian Rankin]

194. Being rude to people never changes their minds, it just puts their backs up.

If your goal is to actually change someone's views, rather than to establish your own righteousness, then be polite and friendly to them.

[NuttyFluffers]

196. polite women never changed history for the better, silence = death, etc. K&R

good for you. the first amendment protects you just as much to speak your mind in a public area. and silence equals assent -- time for people to stop assenting.

no one blew up or bled out, so who cares if some gasbag had to hear a differing point of view. keep on keepin' on, i say.

[proteus_lives]

198. This is hilarious. You actually think you accomplished something.

Was the DU "pat on the head" good for you?

:eyes:

[Common Sense Party]

213. I don't think it's a DU "pat on the head" these "confronters" seek

They want a "DU congratulatory, you're-my-hero fellatio" session:

"I stood up to some clueless person whose opinions were different from my own. I was rude, insulting, condescending, and intrusive! I made an ass out of myself and made sure no one within earshot would respect or listen to progressive ideas for quite some time. But I made myself feel good and self-righteous. Now, my adoring choir, shower me with praise and swallow me whole!"

[pipi_k]

220. And, as someone above has already pointed out...

they always manage to "confront" the people who can't kick their asses from here to next Sunday.

I'd be willing to bet that a "confrontation" with a huge linebacker type with a chip on his shoulder would shrivel a lot of that need to verbally abuse others in public.

:evilgrin:

[DainBramaged]

225. 57 recs proves you wrong. You just won't let it go will you?

I guess you feel you should insult those of us who aren't professional pacifists.


Professional keyboard warriors, lecturing the rest of us since 1996.:nuke:

[pipi_k]

228. "Professional Pacifist"...

Wow... I'll have to add that to my resume

:7



Until then...

more than 150,000 -------> number of DU members

minus 57 -------> number of recs


yep. I admit defeat. :cry:

You clearly have the majority of support here.

[Common Sense Party]

234. I thought "pacifism" was a virtue...

But then again, I thought civility was, too.

Shows how out of it I am.

[DailyGrind51]

199. The smart seniors hang out at White Castle!

[mwb970]

200. I hope most of the hatred is coming from elderly people.

And the elderlier, the better! Hopefully in a few years this burst of un-American hatred will die out as the worst of the bigots die off. I suspect that this same group you encountered also hate gays, and Latinos, and blacks, and Jews, and on and on and on. And now they hate you too!

The audience for False "News" has an average age of 65, the highest of any cable network. That's the silver lining of the very, very dark cloud that is hovering over America.

[pipi_k]

203. Well we can speed up the process....

End healthcare for seniors.

Why waste precious resources on a bunch of nasty old fuckers? Of course, we'd probably have to have a "litmus test" to sort out the Democrats from the Republicans. Because the only worthwhile old fuckers are Democrats.

If we really want to speed up the transformation, we could just shoot every Republican over the age of 60. But why stop there? I mean, when you think about it, aren't they all pretty much worthless anyway?

Kill 'em all!!!!

Then everything will be peachy.


sigh...

:eyes:

[kiva]

210. Nah, who needs a litmus test, just let them all die.

This will allow the coming of the new world order, because ALL of the people under 65 (or 60, or 55, or 30) are all wonderful people who will make the world perfect.:crazy:

[lame54]

201. You are what you eat

[Seneca]

207. Bouncy!

[deaniac21]

217. Ah, another made up story.

[Common Sense Party]

233. It's about as real as:

"Dear Penthouse Forum, You'll never believe what happened to me today..."

[deaniac21]

238. That one probably used a little more imagination, though.

[MajorChode]

222. Sometimes the best way to marginalize these types of people is just to laugh at them

Arguing with them gives them reason to believe their hateful bullshit deserves an argument, but it doesn't. I was listening to a couple of old bastards the other day, one said he thought the Muslims were going to take over the country in 20 years, the other said they already had because Obama was a Muslim. I just started chuckling. It pissed them off(which was my objective), but I wasn't going to argue with them on their mindless points. It serves no purpose.

[DearAbby]

231. I have been called a "Muslim Lover"

Same crap as decades ago, when people stood up for the rights of another group. Same Crap.

[beam me up scottie]

236. I don't preach tolerance either, I let them know that *IN PUBLIC* intolerance is unacceptable.

Just like public drunkenness.

Minorities have to ignore the racial slurs because they're outnumbered, I'm an uppity bitch who doesn't mind picking some battles. :evilgrin:

NOBODY uses the n-word around me more than once.

I make sure it isn't worth the trouble.

[Obamanaut]

237. You were in McD? No one here goes to McD, or Walmart, or watches

Foxnews. I know they don't, because I read it here.

[DemocracyInaction]

239. I AM the "elderly"

and I love what you did. JesusHChrist, I swear that every stupid elderly asshole lives at McD's--especially in the morning. Now this is how I, an elder, handle it: I start making MY point very loudly to my husband so that they can overhear me....and then my husband says "why the hell are you yelling at me. I'm not deaf, you crazy dingbat"!!!

[LanternWaste]

240. I've noticed odd something about this thread....

I've noticed odd indeed something about this thread...

A vast majority of those calling for more dignity and self-restraint on your part do very little of that very thing over the course of a nominal thread themselves.

Maybe it really is easier to demand civility from others than it is to practice it ourselves. :shrug:

[pipi_k]

241. I hope you also noticed that

one individual who has been exceedingly rude ("you people sicken me, you people are nothing but a bunch of _____," and other nasty statements) throughout this thread has gotten a lot more civility than he probably deserves.

[LanternWaste]

245. I'll never expect civility from that poster.

I'll never expect civility from that poster if it's the one I'm thinking of. Nor an erstwhile dialog-- as his modus appears to be putting someone on ignore if they disagree with him.

(Did you know you're about one of a dozen posters that I actually look forward to reading when I see you posting in a thread I've opened? We're miles apart on three issues, but I'll be damned-- you can be damned persuasive on those very issues. Vegas odds would have me buying a bottle of Hot Sauce from you if we were sitting next to each other in the cafeteria in hell. Seemed like as good a place as any to say that... :) )