Does Politics have to be so toxic?

[SargeUNN]

I did progressive talk for over 3 years and the last year or so I honestly dreaded doing the show because even on our side there was a viciousness that left people scared to express their thoughts. I remember one person that called in and ranted on how Obama hasn't done anything and when it was pointed out that Obama has some accomplishments we should be glad for, he blew it off and continued his rant and would attack anyone who said anything good about Obama. Eventually he quit calling but I got several emails from listeners telling me they did want to call in but these people attacking them made them rather avoid calling.

I believe most here are not this type but we have a loud minority here that do create this attitude where people don't post because they don't want to be attacked. To me this is sad and counter-productive because it kills input of ideas and eventually people will find a more friendly place or just give up.

I have even gotten to the point where I spend less time following what is going on and said that I was glad I didn't have to go on air anymore and talk about this.

I am posting this not to lecture anyone, but hope that maybe it will help us think before we get too vicious that we need the differing opinions and we should not be attacking differing ideas. I will confess I too am guilty of this, and I am trying to not do it.

[Uben]

1. A lot post here for a reaction....

....rather than to express a view. When they get the reaction they desired, they counter, in an effort to try and prove they were right. In other words, baited posts. We see them every day. I just avoid those types of posts for they offer no insight and take no intelligent thought.

[bobbolink]

9. And I can point right NOW to a baiting post that was alerted on, and allowed to stand.

What you are ignoring is that these HURT.

That is the problem... we have come to the point of just blowing off the PAIN that is caused.

[Uben]

15. Oh, I've alerted several

Some were deleted, others not, but that's not my call. If you are prone to get upset by internet posts, why post on the internet?
Heck, I quit going to bars because I lost my tolerance for drunk people. Like Mr. Miagi said on "the KArate Kid", The best defense......no be there!" Ha!

I dunno, maybe I have just grown a thicker skin over the years here, but I don't even keep track of who is annoying and who is not. You can call me every name in the book and I might agree altogether with you on something else in another thread, a few minutes later. Politics brings out the passion in us all because we see our beliefs as what is right, when in reality, they might be no more right than the guy you are arguing with. It's all subjective.

[bobbolink]

16. You got it. Insensitivity is a winner.

Congratulations on achieving it.

[Uben]

19. Why, because I don't take your side?

There will ALWAYS be someone who doesn't agree, even here. Do it in a civilized way, and I"ll listen. Be an asshole and I can just hit that little emergency button in the upper right hand of my monitor screen. It's there for a reason.

[bobbolink]

23. Yeah, of course....... you got it.

:crazy:

the answer to everything is to desensitize yourself.

We do it so well in this country, and the resulting bigotry shows.

According to you, there should never have been any complaints about the "N" word, or the bigotry of racism, or any of the other issues. I guess you think gays, too, should just "toughen up" or leave.

Yeah, hardness and insensitivity is making this such a wonderful country to live in.

[Uben]

34. Being married to a family counselor for a loooong time......

....I very well might be guilty of telling people what I think they need to hear, not necessarily what they want to hear. That's my life. And, I'm sure that won't always bring accollades. And, I can assure you, I am about as good of an advocate you will find for all LGBTs. That too, is part of my life. I don't see color. I see people.

Desensitized? Honestly? Yes. I've been through more "situations" than I could deal with if I weren't.

[Orsino]

2. It doesn't have to be...

...unless the media Powers That Be decide to sell us a huge pack of lies. That requires acrimony.

[Cirque du So-What]

3. Toxicity pays dividends!

Negative campaigning against one's opponent has been shown to be more effective than a candidate touting his/her virtues. There's also the maxim about the squeaky wheel & grease: teabaggers at 'town hall meetings' a case in point. Although small in numbers, the 'baggers make quite a spectacle of themselves, and that in turn got their talking points (wrong though they may be) promulgated throughout the media and piped straight into the ears & eyes of low-info voters all over the country.

The RW turds who dominate the airwaves take great pains to accentuate their negativity and enhance their douchebaggery by shouting down all dissent. It's part of their 'charm,' apparently.

In a related vein, obnoxiousness can be an evolutionary & reproductive advantage...to the extent that it doesn't rile other alpha males to either kill or incarcerate the threatining monkey. I've heard too many conversations between females that go something like, 'who IS that obnoxious, loudmouthed man over there...he's SO interesting!'

[bobbolink]

11. Indeed it does! Toxic posts, attacking people, on DU get lots of attention.

Never mind the pain that is caused... it is FUN!!

That's what we have sunk to.

[backwoodsbob]

4. remember..this is a message board

you can make a 5 paragraph perfectly layed out synapses of any point of interest and if it doesn't have *juice* it will fall like a rock never to be heard from again.

Someone can post Bush=Hitler nt and it will go to the greatest page in 30 seconds flat.

Hyperbole and over the top emotion will win out over reasoned thought every time on a message board.

[SargeUNN]

8. read the post again

You will see I referred not only to here but elsewhere. I have even seen this at the Food Network on Facebook which really was rather surprising.

[steve2470]

10. agreed nt

[Speck Tater]

5. Politics has been this way for all of recorded history, and probably further back than that. nt

[SargeUNN]

6. not at this level in my lifetime

I never saw it this toxic, not even during JFK's run for President. There has been contention before but never at this level at least in my lifetime. Maybe it was in the 1860 but I am not old enough to compare it first hand. I can remember the first year of my show it was not as bad as the last year.

[Speck Tater]

13. Read some history.

Take, for example, the presidential election of 1876. The Democrat, Tilden, had a clear majority in the popular vote, but Florida and a few other states submitted TWO version of their certified vote tally. One version gave the electoral votes to Tilden and the other to the Republican Rutherford B. Hayes. So the Republican Congress appointed a commission of 8 Republicans and 7 Democrats to decide which vote tally was the correct one. The Republicans voted for the Republican version and the Democrats voted for the Democratic version, and we got a Republican president who lost the popular vote by a wide margin.

Today is no worse than at any other time in history. Take, for example, the plot by A highly decorated Marine Corps Major General and some Wall Street Corporatists in 1933 to overthrow FDR and take over the government. http://coat.ncf.ca/our_magazine/links/53/53-index.html

This kind of hot-headed partisan hatred is the way politics has almost always been. In fact in the past the news media was even more partisan than it is now. In the 1800's newspapers where blatantly Republican or Democratic, and wrote opinion pieces on the front page as if they were news. Fox is just following a very, very long line of partisan bias in the news media. It's nothing new by a long shot.

[steve2470]

7. From what I remember, even Washington was slandered.

Whether it's worse now than in 1789, I'm not sure. I think it's always been toxic. Just degrees of toxicity.

[gulliver]

12. I can't even imagine the balancing act needed to change it.

Obama is by far the best at it that I have ever seen--at least in power. It's not enough so far, though.

But, imo, to slow down the death spiral, I think we need to balance the emotional forces in some way. The Bush/Palin/Fox Republican Party needs to be met head-on, both in attacks and with olive branches. If there is going to be a struggle for dominance, we need to struggle for dominance. We need to reach a tipping point that takes us back into cooperation mode. You can't get there if one side perceives it is achieving gains through a lack of cooperation.

Right now, the Bush/Cheney/Palin Republican Party attacks the Dems and gets scant punishment. In fact, even the Dems attack the Dems and get scant punishment. Attacking pays until it doesn't.

[NC_Nurse]

14. I think things degenerate when people are scared. The world is a scary place

for a lot of people right now. No jobs, no healthcare, no future, endless wars and demagoguery urging hate and paranoia.
It's not a pretty picture. I agree with you, it's sad and frustrating.

[Fumesucker]

17. Eh, my perspective is somewhat different..

I started out my online politics posting on unmoderated usenet political fora, compared to them posting on DU is like nap time at the preschool.

I've heard even the mighty Rush Limbaugh reduced to a quivering lump of putrid lard on his own damn radio show by someone that knew enough of "inside radio" to sneak through his call screeners. I'm pretty sure I recognized the voice and delivery too, it was a woman reporter from one of the local AM stations I used to listen to back in the dark ages.

[OneGrassRoot]

18. Life has become toxic in many ways...

I agree with others here who have said that underlying all the hatred and anger is fear; and there's a lot to be afraid of. This fear manifests as hatred and bullying and selfishness and every ugly side of humanity.

The sad thing is, while everyone is attacking one another (conservatives attacking liberals, liberals attacking conservatives, liberals attacking liberals, accusations and labels and name-calling flying left, right and center) nothing changes, and those who hold the power and control the resources just keep building more power, raping and pillaging, laughing all the way.

A wise DUer wrote something to this effect recently, and it's finally sinking in with me more and more.

"You'll get more done by creating your own critical mass in finding like-minded souls than trying to energize other souls to become like-minded."

We lose a ton of energy fighting with others when, at the end of the day, no one has had a change of heart or mind.

So it is.

:)

[Yavin4]

20. Less People Have A Stake in the Current System

As people lose their stake in the current system, they also lose their civility. Think about your job. You are nice and civil to your co-workers because you have a stake in that paycheck. Without that paycheck, how nice would you be to your co-workers?

People are losing everything in their lives, their jobs, their homes, their retirement, their futures. So, they're going to be upset and angry.

[OneGrassRoot]

22. No doubt about it...

People are losing everything in their lives, their jobs, their homes, their retirement, their futures. So, they're going to be upset and angry.

I'm not judging the anger at all. There are good reasons for it, and it's based (in my opinion) in fear...a fear of losing everything, a fear of losing life as they/we know it, even if that life wasn't always great, it is better than what appears to be happening right now, or looming just around the corner.

I could easily become overwhelmed with the anger and injustices I personally encounter in my life, let alone the much worse injustices I observe others facing. I know myself well enough at this age as to how I, personally, can be most effective without falling into the pit of despair myself; not ignoring it, but doing the best I can in my own way.

I would hope we can be nicer to people without always having to have a stake in it in some way. We can't always be nice, nor should we -- we shouldn't ignore injustices (and some of us confront things differently without ignoring it) -- but the nonstop fighting doesn't seem to be working out very well either.

:hi:

[bobbolink]

25. There was a *lot* of fear in the 50s.... generated, as now, by a lot of fear-mongering

in order to build up the military.

Yet, for all that was wrong in the 50s, people were so ugly.

Excusing it by labeling it as fear doesn't make it change.

[The Magistrate]

21. Unfortunately, Sergeant, Yes, Politics Does Have To Be Toxic Now

The great reason this is so is that one side of the political debate cannot even pretend to argue honestly, since it is trying to gain freely cast votes for policies that will injure the people they need to have voting on their side. This can only be managed if people are whipped into an emotional state, and kept in an emotional state, that keeps them from examining their actual situations, and their own self-interest: not for nothing does our language include such common phrases as 'too mad to think straight' and 'blinded by hate' or 'blind with fear'.

[TheKentuckian]

24. Honestly, Democrats need to become much tougher and more willing to go on the offensive.

Much of the reason things are so toxic is because of dealing with bullies and criminal minded sociopaths too meekly, which totally emboldens them rather than buying one single ounce of empathy, respect, patience, or courtesy.

Much of the atmosphere is the fruit of 30-40 years of mealy mouthed, jelly spined chumpatude trying to play the love child Ghandi and Mr Spock but with less comfort with certitude on principles.

The more we back down, the more the opposition presses it's attacks. You'd have to be blind, not paying attention, stupid, or crazy not to see the patterns here.

Instead of cowering we need indomitable will and some fucking grit. Republicans are going for the throat and eyes and the more you stand there and take it the more dead, blind, and/or bloody you are going to be.

You are going to get fucked the hell up going up against predators searching for compromise and cooperation.

All Democrats know how to do is take asswhoppings and beg for compromise that ends up at such a cost that more ground is lost than was started with.

If you are scared to express your opinion then what good is it? If it means more to you than the fear then you'll stand up for it.

Being "wussie" and capitulating liberals has done nothing but made matters worse. Being above the fray has resulted in dump truck loads of muck being piled till none can avoid it.

It is fight or die and cowering in the dust getting fucking pummeled while reading poetry isn't going to get the job done.

[OneGrassRoot]

27. May I ask you something?

I agree with what you said here. It drives me crazy when I don't see flat-out lies challenged in the media, between politicians, etc. And it's the not challenging the lies and distortions that, to me, make the dems seem meek and weak.

Yet do you personally feels it matters HOW the lies are challenged? When everyone is screaming at the top of their lungs, calling one another names, it seems to get nowhere and many people then tune out altogether. That, to me, is much more dangerous...the apathy that results.

Can't someone be firm in their convictions, stand up and speak their truth, without yelling and name-calling and accusations, and not be a wussie, capitulating liberal?

I'm sincerely asking your opinion, 'cause I hear what you're saying.

I feel we need both personality types standing up for the truth: the ass-kicking, take-no-prisoners types, and the Spock and Ghandi types. I think both personality types are valuable, so long as they speak up, in their way.

:hi:

[bobbolink]

32. there are two levels to that... (Maybe more...)

On the level of the White House, I don't think any of us can imagine Obama going on TV and calling any of his hateful detractors ugly names. Ain't gonna happen. (The only name-calling I can remember coming from the White House is darling Rahm calling US "fucking retards". Way to win votes, BOZO.)

On the personal level, it really doesn't work to use gentility with name-callers. These are different times from Gandhi, Martin Luther King, etc.

If you use proper communication skills, like "I-messages", you are just told you are "thin-skinned", "overly sensitive", "don't belong on a discussion board if you can't take it", etc.

As for the RWers, they LOVE to harrass liberals, and that isn't going to stop. In that case, it is dealing with bullies, pure and simple, and we need to study bullying tactics.

If you are nice, you will get steam-rolled. We need to discuss this more, and develop tactics, because it ain't gonna go away. And the steam-rollers are winning.

[TheKentuckian]

35. I'm sure it matters but I never said anything about name calling or screaming

It is about resolve, conviction, willingness to to engage, steel in the spine, and never backing down on principle even when action must be compromised.

It is about truly believing in things rather than rather than unlimited flexibility.

Sometimes it is about risking fighting a losing battle or two or three or four or whatever it takes to keep pushing the envelope til you bust it open.

Tough doesn't always mean bluster and saber rattling but it is never afraid of it.

As for the conflict adverse tuning out, I consider it an excuse to stand for nothing wrapped in a veil of false nobility at worst and at best worthless on the lines in the current environment because of their nature all the can offer is pep talks and ways to fold in hopes of harmony at any cost.
They may have the courage to lay in front of a tank but they won't even try to make sure they are stopped dead to remove the threat.

There are no universally functional tactics and strategies, what is best is what works in a given circumstance with the resources available.

Passive resistance only can work if their is an empathetic audience to appeal to, otherwise it is just sheep to the slaughter.

[OneGrassRoot]

36. Thank you both for your thoughts. :) n/t

[EFerrari]

29. I think the compromising thing is an act.

It's just the role some of the political class plays so the story will hang together.

But then, I don't believe Saddam had WMD, either.

[EFerrari]

26. It's a sickness in this culture, promoted by hate radio,

and it's seeping into everything, imho. :(

[defendandprotect]

28. Oddly enough, this does seem an attempt to lecture those who criticize Obama ....

what's new -- we've had dozens of these threads --

Meanwhile, this is a DEBATING website -- and you might notice that many liberal

positions -- homosexual rights -- are also sadly attacked by right wingers here.

No one is going to go away and cry over it -- this isn't a "put your head in the sand"

kind of activity!

If someone doesn't want to debate their position, then probably a forum like this is

the wrong place for them to be????




I guess some saw the dumping of TEA in the Boston Harbor as too "noisy" and "shrill"????

That was anti-corporate activity -- and we have some things to learn from that period

of time -- thru a revolution and on to a Constitution. One of the main ones would be ...

"don't compromise with the right wing" -- i.e., slavery -- which compromise gave us

hundreds of years of Africans enslaved here and the brutality of it -- followed by another

100 years of Segregation, Inc. Not to mention a Civil War because of that compromise --

a war we still have not yet recovered from!

[defendandprotect]

30. Re "Politics" .... they say that politics is "the shadow cast over government by corporations"....

That means that the oridinary citizen isn't being heard --

and that's why voices get louder as more and more realize that

it is corporations -- and not the people -- who have leverage

over our elected officials --

and that our elected officials are serving corporates/elites and

NOT the public interest!!

[pampango]

31. The refining of gerrymandering to the point where there are so many "safe" districts where

the only real competition is in the primary which pushes candidates away from the middle. Politicians from "safe" districts don't worry about losing general elections by being too extreme and alienating moderate voters, they worry about losing primaries by not being extreme enough.

If our districts were drawn in a more nonpartisan manner, as in Iowa, our politicians could not be so toxic and get reelected.

[metapunditedgy]

33. When you increase pressure on a system, the system heats up.

It's not just the economy and bad attitudes; there are several effects that are pressurizing the Democratic party.

There are two issues. 1) HOW we talk about something, and 2) WHAT we talk about. If people are told that certain topics are forbidden, then idealists will naturally fight that rule, while rabble-rousers will try to exploit it to cause further division.