Arne to push districts to make data on teachers public. Says will make us "stronger".

[madfloridian]

I don't know if people are noticing that under this administration with Arne Duncan as Secretary of Education teachers are being looked down upon with more contempt than I have ever seen. It was never this bad under the Bush administration, though the goals were the same. There were not the constant public admonitions and criticisms.

Today we learn that Duncan is actually publicly calling on districts to publicize the names of teachers who don't meet standards. Before all the "teachers deserve it" folks jump on board...remember that no students and parents are having to answer to the public for those poor test scores. None of the external factors are taken into consideration either.

The Secretary of Education under a Democratic president is calling for districts to hold teachers up to ridicule.

Education secretary Arne Duncan will call on districts across the nation to make information on teachers public.

U.S. Education Secretary Arne Duncan will call for all states and school districts to make public whether their instructors are doing enough to raise students' test scores and to share other school-level information with parents, according to a text of a speech he is scheduled to make Wednesday.

"The truth is always hard to swallow, but it can only make us better, stronger and smarter," according to remarks he plans to deliver in Little Rock, Ark. "That's what accountability is all about — facing the truth and taking responsibility."

The lack of public accountability in California's schools compared with those in some other states could have been a factor Tuesday in the state's failure to win any money in the federal government's competitive Race to the Top education grant program.

Here is more about how this is being pushed in Los Angeles.

L.A. Unified Deputy Supt. John Deasy announced Friday that to improve instruction, the district by this fall would begin using so-called value-added analysis of teachers' performance based on student test scores. He also said he hopes that value-added analysis will become at least 30% of teacher evaluations, although that must be agreed to by the teachers union, whose president has long criticized the method as inaccurate.

In a memo Tuesday to the Board of Education, Deasy said that a teacher's value-added score should not be reported publicly and that including it in a performance review "would shield it" from public disclosure. He also said the district had had "positive" preliminary talks with the unions on a new evaluation system.

So Deasy is going to shield it by making it part of performance reviews. Good luck on that when Arne appears to be calling for more public openness.

And it is really too late as the Los Angeles Times plans to publish this info soon.

Full Disclosure Without Precedent

Information like this, being publicly released, has no precedent. In fact, some school districts are prohibited by law from disclosing the names of ineffective teachers. The LAUSD has not released any information regarding action it will take when parents of children in the classrooms of teachers called out as ineffective, begin demanding students be transferred to other teachers.

Value Added

The teachers were ranked according to "value added" scores, which are based on progress individual students make from year to year on their standardized test scores. Teachers whose students achieved a year's growth were ranked best, and those whose students didn't were ranked the worst.

Obama's Education Secretary Approves

Secretary of Education Arne Duncan expressed his approval of The L.A. Times' article, stating he feels parents deserve to know this information. Duncan hopes studies like this can be utilized more to help identify excellent teachers, provide assistance to those who need some help, and to counsel the worst teachers out of the profession.

Times ranks teachers using test score to name the best and the worst.

There is a mean side to Arne Duncan that turns my stomach. He is ruthless in what HE wants, and doesn't seem too concerned about what is best for the students or teachers in the quest for real learning.

He has made it clear he endorses what the Los Angeles Times is doing.

U.S. Secretary of Education Arne Duncan said Monday that parents have a right to know if their children's teachers are effective, endorsing the public release of information about how well individual teachers fare at raising their students' test scores.

"What's there to hide?" Duncan said in an interview one day after The Times published an analysis of teacher effectiveness in the Los Angeles Unified School District, the nation's second largest school system. "In education, we've been scared to talk about success."

Duncan's comments mark the first time the Obama administration has expressed support for a public airing of information about teacher performance — a move that is sure to fan the already fierce debate over how to better evaluate teachers.

His appointment and the fact that he is held in high esteem by the president is disturbing to me.

It tells me that neither really understand about how to go about having a true depth of learning.

I can tell you why that is happening. It is happening because the process of discrediting public schools and their teachers has been succeeding far more under this administration than it did during the Bush years.

It is the same agenda with a little different terminology being used. The Republicans could never have gotten this privatization of education completed because the Democrats would have fought them on it.

It is now being accomplished under the Obama administration. The disrespect for public school teachers is growing more quickly in that environment.

[ibegurpard]

1. they want my vote and support

and yet it's full speed ahead with privatization
fuck them

[nadinbrzezinski]

2. This is the worst anti intellectual age

we have seen in US history, and the price will be heavy.

[Towlie]

172. This is outrageous! Parents should know NOTHING about the competence of their children's teachers.

[madfloridian]

3. Neat video about what is meant by "value-added".

http://education.change.org/blog/view/video_six_reasons_value-added_growth_model_teacher_evaluations_are_unfair

[TheKentuckian]

4. Why?!?!?!? Damn it, I can't stomach this crap. Duncan is a fucking buffoon and a corporate asshole.

[Angry Dragon]

5. I did not realize that playing basketball

made one an expert on education .........
no wonder they are paid so much
who knew basketball was going to be
the salvation of education

[onpatrol98]

179. Arne has a lot more experience than basketball

Let me see...Well, he's never taught in any school. He's never attended a public school...He has a bachelor of science in Sociology. Well...he can do for the rest of the US what he did for the Chicago Public Schools. Oh wait! Never mind.

A good jump shot OUGHT to count for something.

[LAGC]

6. Boy, the news just keeps getting worse from this guy!

Mr. Obama, FIRE ARNE DUNCAN!

(And shake up your cabinet while you are at it!)

[Luminous Animal]

7. Arne Duncan is a public employee. How about we track him?

[EFerrari]

13. That's brilliant idea. We need a blog.

I'm in.

[Egnever]

8. Parents do have a right to know

Teachers are not gods. They are people and some of them suck at their jobs just like people in any other industry. They deserve better pay for the job they do but they don't deserve to be sheltered from scrutiny. Our school system is failing and there needs to be change. Arne's change may not be the change we need but the status quo is not acceptable.

There is a teacher at my wifes school who kicked a kid in class in front of many students and yet she still teaches there almost two years after the fact now. I understand a desire to try to protect teachers but when it gets to the point that they can kick children and keep their job things need to change.

[madfloridian]

10. Where did you get that this is about "kicking children"?

And where did you get the idea that teachers are gods?

I am stunned at the contempt from Democrats generally now.

It is the atmosphere set by this administration.

It is not about "sheltering them from scrutiny". Teachers are constantly under scrutiny.

But then again I think you know that, and you are just using words that have been used since Reagan's time.

[Egnever]

11. Where do you get that it is not?

Its about general accountability and there needs to be some because the school systems at this point seem totally incapable of providing it. As i said there is a teacher at my wifes school who kicked a child in class and is still teaching there two years later. I don't for a second believe if this info was public knowledge that she would still be there do you?

The fact that she still is, is all I need to know that something needs to change. The school system is horribly broken for many reasons parent participation and a general lack of value of education in america is certainly a part of it but pretending every teachers failure is due to outside influence is ludicrous.

Our school systems need change along with funding, what we have now is horribly broken in myriad ways.

[madfloridian]

14. I think we have done this too many times.

So you can use those talking points by yourself. Backing off.

[Egnever]

15. Talking points....lol

THERE IS A TEACHER AT MY WIFES SCHOOL! You think I am getting that from a talking point memo? What a joke.

[Jakes Progress]

68. newt loves you.

The joke is on the Democratic party. The joke is the number here that support neocon concepts and see no problem with enacting ronald reagan's fondest dreams for children.

[proud2BlibKansan]

100. TURN THAT TEACHER IN

Call the child abuse hotline [phone]

[Luminous Animal]

17. Apparently, it is public knowledge. You know. Why aren't you doing something about it?

Your school and your community is only as good as you make it.

[Luminous Animal]

16. Parents have the right to know what?

Don't parents already know about the teacher who allegedly kicked a kid? Apparently, the parents are lazy because they've done nothing about it. So, given that lazy parents are doing nothing about an allegedly child abuser, what purpose, do you think, that will result from publishing this information... other than humiliating scores of teachers working in some pretty horrific environments and catapulting the propaganda that teachers scary bad.

[MadHound]

23. Tell you what, can we publish your personal employment info, including all incidents and evaluations

If you find this unacceptable for yourself, why do you think that teachers should be treated in such a manner?

[Hissyspit]

27. What about data on administrators? What about data on school board members?

They really are who affects what happens in the classroom. Has Arne mentioned them?

[Jefferson23]

137. YES! [phone] n/t

[maryf]

139. to the tenth power! nt

[Diane R]

50. 'Teachers are not Gods'? Shhh....don't tell a bunch of people around here.

I also posted about teaching with a man who taught Special Reading to my First graders. In front of his Teacher's Aide, he CHOKED one of my students (leaving fingermarks) when the poor little guy couldn't read a word. Nothing happened to the reading teacher...he retired several years later with accolades. Oh...the school district did make sure to always hire a Teacher's Aide to be present when he worked with students.

So. Yes. I agree with you. When it gets to a point when teachers can choke their students and keep their jobs things need to change.

[JackDragna]

63. Spare me.

There are random insufferable employees in every profession. For every teacher that gets away with something like that, there's dozens of private sector employees who get away with racism, overt sexual abuse and corruption.

[Jakes Progress]

69. Don't use logic with this type of poster.

When you hear someone say this kind of thing, you know they are short on the thinking thing.

[Name removed]

92. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Joe Fields]

99. Another example of a "teacher" who cannot even spell correctly.

I have had to correct several of these.

Oh, and as for choking, a substitute teacher choked me, when I was in the ninth grade and kept his job.

It fucking happens.

[liberation]

151. Who said I was a teacher?

I taught in college, like many grad students have to do. And that is all you could find as a counter argument? A typo? LOL...

What if I use your same "blame the victim" logic to you: maybe you did something to deserve to be choked.

[Joe Fields]

194. I see too many self proclaimed "teachers" who cannot spell,

cannot put a sentence together correctly and cannot formulate a coherent opinion. And we wonder why Johnny can't read, while the teachers blame everyone else?

[proud2BlibKansan]

102. Turn that teacher in

Call the child abuse hotline [phone]

[liberation]

152. Yeah...

... but then he or she could not use the anecdote for full impact, right?

[Diane R]

158. Well, you asked for examples. I gave an example. You're still not satisfied?

[Name removed]

166. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[maryf]

116. What percentage of teachers would you say are like this??

one hundredth of one percent, you think??? That is horrendous, and criminal that the district let the man stay, but this is the first case I've heard of such, and I've been teaching for 20 years.

[Diane R]

159. I think the percentage is very low. But my own kids had more than a few really bad teachers.

I just think teachers would have more credibility, and support from the public, if they acknowledge that there are some problem teachers who should not be in the classroom. The NEA (and I was a member when I taught) should help school districts retain quality teachers but also give them more help in removing teachers who do more harm than good. For too long the union has helped protect bad teachers.

[maryf]

207. In twenty years of teaching...

It has truly been my experience that bad teachers don't last...of course it really is a shame for the kids who have them the few years they are there. In any given year, I'd say maybe 5% of the teachers aren't very good...but it's not the teachers' nor the unions' jobs to get rid of them; it is the administrators jobs...and tenure is not rock hard...

[Diane R]

211. Perhaps it's different in some areas of the country.

Out here (Washington State), it is just next to impossible to get rid of a bad teacher. The exception is if a teacher is accused of sexual misconduct with a student.

My experience (ten years teaching; three kids of my own through public school), is that bad teachers are never, ever removed. I knew of one teacher who was removed, a second grade teacher who threw a glass bottle at the principal in front of the students. Trust me, she was looney long before then, but that incident finally tipped the scale.

I've seen a fair number of terrible teachers last for decades. It's so unfair to the students, and unfair to really good teachers who can't get hired while a job is held for years by someone who does damage.

[noamnety]

9. How about we end secret holds in congress first.

We can't even get our elected officials to confess to what they're up to.

I'd love to start there when it comes to disclosure and transparency.

[madfloridian]

12. This will do real harm to already formed teacher/child/parent relations.

The parents are pretty savvy about good teachers, but they are going to be confused by the test score viability when the teachers' names are published. A teacher with a difficult class of low ability, low performing students will be considered equivalent to teacher with high achievers and high ability.

I can not believe Arne Duncan is getting to do this with impunity. My anger grows daily.

[Hannah Bell]

18. i think we need to publish how arne got every job he ever had through connections. on the front

page of the LA Times.

and how his "job performance" = firing people for his corporate masters.

[JDPriestly]

19. Arne Duncan is a mean-old-man. He is making the whole Obama

administration look nasty. Boy, did Obama pick a horrible cabinet, horrible advisors. Honestly, I don't know where he got them -- Oh, I forgot -- Chicago.

[madfloridian]

25. I agree about the advisors.

[Joe Fields]

20. Oh my! Let's not call out teachers who don't meet the standards!!!!!

Will you please, for chrissake give it a rest?

If teachers don't meet the standards then they should be called out.

I, for one am all for it, and so should all parents of school children.

Quit covering up for teachers who have no business teaching our kids.

[Hannah Bell]

21. keep the talking points rolling, love the comic relief.

[Joe Fields]

72. and the syncophants and attack dogs always follow suit .

I knew you would be right there protecting teachers at any cost. So predictable. Are you a union rep by any chance, or just one of those teachers who refuse to adhere to standards?

[maryf]

119. Do you know what standards are???

In NYS it is nearly impossible to adhere to the state standards due to the tests the kids must be prepared for that measure mostly the first level of learning, little application of knowledge, or problem solving, or critical thinking...or even most of what the standards demand the kids to learn...

[Joe Fields]

120. Oh jeeze...

If you are, in fact a teacher in the state of New York, please get out of the profession now!

[maryf]

131. Ad hominem doesn't preclude my talking about my standards: here they are

I am lucky enough to not have to teach a class with many tests; I'm lucky enough to be able to teach creative problem solving and critical thinking everyday....These standards are what I try to hit on to the best of my ability, but it's beyond me how someone not versed in aesthetic esoterica can figure out how to evaluate me. Most non art teachers think kids are just in there to do what they want to do. For those teaching courses which have equally stringent standards placed before them and tests that do not allow them to follow these standards, I truly have compassion, that was the point I obviously did not make clear before.

Here are my standards for high school visual art:

Standard 1
Key idea: Students will make works of art that explore different kinds of subject matter, topics, themes, and metaphors. Students will understand and use sensory elements, organizational principles, and expressive images to communicate their own ideas in works of art. Students will use a variety of art materials, processes, mediums, and techniques, and use appropriate technologies for creating and exhibiting visual art works.
Performance Indicators


Commencement (this is all from one general art course, usually taught in 9th grade)

Students will:

* create a collection of art work, in a variety of mediums, based on instructional assignments and individual and collective experiences to explore perceptions, ideas, and viewpoints
* create art works in which they use and evaluate different kinds of mediums, subjects, themes, symbols, metaphors, and images
* demonstrate an increasing level of competence in using the elements and principles of art to create art works for public exhibition
* reflect on their developing work to determine the effectiveness of selected mediums and techniques for conveying meaning and adjust their decisions accordingly

Commencement Major Sequence

* produce comprehensive and well organized commencement portfolios of their work
* reveal through their work a broad investigation of a variety of individual ideas and at least one theme explored imaginatively and in depth
* give evidence that they have developed an emerging personal style
* use selected mediums and techniques and select the most appropriate mediums and techniques to communicate their ideas

Standard 2

Key idea: Students will know and use a variety of visual arts materials, techniques, and processes. Students will know about resources and opportunities for participation in visual arts in the community (exhibitions, libraries, museums, galleries) and use appropriate materials (art reproductions, slides, print materials, electronic media). Students will be aware of vocational options available in the visual arts.
Performance Indicators


Commencement

Students will:

* select and use mediums and processes that communicate intended meaning in their art works, and exhibit competence in at least two mediums
* use the computer and electronic media to express their visual ideas and demonstrate a variety of approaches to artistic creation
* interact with professional artists and participate in school- and community-sponsored programs by art organizations and cultural institutions
* understand a broad range of vocations/avocations in the field of visual arts, including those involved with creating, performing, exhibiting, and promoting art

Commencement Major Sequence

Students will:

* develop Commencement Portfolios that show proficiency in one or more mediums and skill in using and manipulating the computer and other electronic media
* prepare a portfolio that meets the admission requirements of selected institutions
* understand the preparation required for particular art professions and acquire some skills of those professions through internships with local galleries, museums, advertising agencies, architectural firms, and other institutions

Standard 3
Key idea: Students will reflect on, interpret, and evaluate works of art, using the language of art criticism. Students will analyze the visual characteristics of the natural and built environment and explain the social, cultural, psychological, and environmental dimensions of the visual arts. Students will compare the ways in which a variety of ideas, themes, and concepts are expressed through the visual arts with the ways they are expressed in other disciplines.
Performance Indicators


Commencement

Students will:

* use the language of art criticism by reading and discussing critical reviews in newspapers and journals and by writing their own critical responses to works of art (either their own or those of others)
* explain the visual and other sensory qualities in art and nature and their relation to the social environment
* analyze and interpret the ways in which political, cultural, social, religious, and psychological concepts and themes have been explored in visual art
* develop connections between the ways ideas, themes, and concepts are expressed through the visual arts and other disciplines in everyday life

Commencement Major Sequence

Students will:

* using the language of art criticism, describe the visual and functional characteristics of works of art and interpret the relationships of works of art one to another, to describe the impact of the work on the viewer
* demonstrate an understanding of art criticism, art histories, and aesthetic principles and show their connections to works of art
* give evidence in their Commencement Portfolios that they have researched a theme in-depth and that in their research they have explored the ways the theme has been expressed in other disciplinary forms

Standard 4

Key idea: Students will explore art and artifacts from various historical periods and world cultures to discover the roles that art plays in the lives of people of a given time and place and to understand how the time and place influence the visual characteristics of the art work. Students will explore art to understand the social, cultural, and environmental dimensions of human society.
Performance Indicators


Commencement

Students will:

* analyze works of art from diverse world cultures and discuss the ideas, issues, and events of the culture that these works convey
* examine works of art and artifacts from United States cultures and place them within a cultural and historical context
* create art works that reflect a variety of cultural influences

Commencement Major Sequence

Students will:

* present a body of work within their portfolio that reflects the influences of variety of cultural styles
* interpret the meaning of works and artifacts in terms of the cultures that produced them
* explain how cultural values have been expressed in the visual arts, how art works have been used to bring about cultural change and how the art of a culture has been influenced by art works coming from outside that culture

[Hannah Bell]

160. don't confuse him with actual facts. teachers are bad & need to be fired.

they can't be fired now, and they need to be.

he has one idea & he's sticking to it.

[maryf]

191. That's quite a standard he's setting!!

;) wonder if he read the post?? Standards he couldn't handle? :hi:

[Luminous Animal]

22. What standards? What, specifically are the standards?

[Joe Fields]

73. You tell me. Madfloridian's words, not mine.

And the pack follows. So predictable.

[MadHound]

24. Hey, Joe, I see you still haven't put up your personal info or evaluations here

Yet you want to treat teachers differently. Hypocrisy much?

[Joe Fields]

75. No hypocrisy. I don't teach children. I provide a service. I serve food.

If a local newspaper wants to publish my personal professional evaluation, then I have nothing to be ashamed about.

Just what do you have to hide?

[MadHound]

87. It isn't a matter of shame, it's a matter of privacy

While you may be an exception (and somehow, if push came to shove I think that you would be screaming bloody murder), most people don't want their personal information and evaluations published. It isn't that they have something to hide, it's simply that this is personal information and people don't like it when their privacy is invaded, which is what publishing evaluations is, an invasion of privacy.

[liberation]

95. Well, then let's have at it.

Where are your evaluations?

We haven't seen them yet, so should we assume you have something to hide?

[Name removed]

101. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[liberation]

146. You said you had no problem disclosing your records, I simply asked for them...

... unless you records consist of a silly personal attack, I take you were full of shit and you are not OK with disclosing your records.

[proud2BlibKansan]

I thought you were a big wig in Head Start

Did you get fired from that job? Please share the details.

[Joe Fields]

110. I served on the executive council of the Kansas City Head Start

program for two years, which is all that is allowed.

What's your point?

[proud2BlibKansan]

134. And now you serve food?

Sure.

:rofl:

[Joe Fields]

143. How elitist of you...

Anything wrong with that?

:wtf:

[proud2BlibKansan]

167. My son serves food. But he has something you lack.

Manners. :)

[Joe Fields]

195. When attacked I fight back. What does your son do?

And do you always drag him into your droll arguments?

[proud2BlibKansan]

201. He was raised to be polite and respectful

You jump into every teacher discussion you see and bash away.

How many of your posts have been deleted in this thread?
Get a clue.

[MadHound]

165. Really?

So you were a member of MARC?

[proud2BlibKansan]

168. He told me he was a Head Start administrator

All we know for sure is he's a teacher hater.

[MadHound]

170. Executive council of KC area Head Start

Sounds like a member of MARC to me. But yes, you're right, a definite dislike of teachers.

[Joe Fields]

197. Just some. After all, it's the children I worry about. You don't?

[Joe Fields]

196. No, just a realist.

To you, there are no bad teachers. Anyone who says differently gets broadsided by you and many others on this forum.

Paint with a broadbrush much? I think so.

Your problem is that you are overly sensitive..

[Joe Fields]

200. And all we know for sure is that you say you are a teacher.

Since you hide behind a false name. At least I have the courage to use my real name. Just what could we possibly know about you, or anyone else here, for that matter, who use false names?

[Catshrink]

204. You just indicted 99.9% of DU.

How do we know you're real name is Joe Fields?

[proud2BlibKansan]

205. It isn't

Or he is lying about serving on the executive council of Head Start.

Guess he thought no one would check it out.

[Catshrink]

206. Figures...

Teachers know how to recognize bullshit when we see it.

[LWolf]

26. Student scores don't reflect whether teachers "meet the standards."

Teachers have to demonstrate mastery of the content they are teaching to get a teaching license. They take tests to do so. Those aren't the scores that will be released, and it wouldn't mean much to release them, anyway. If the teacher didn't pass the tests, he or she wouldn't have a license, and wouldn't be teaching. Many states, for example, use PRAXIS exams for this purpose:

http://www.ets.org/praxis

Some states have other standards, specifically for teachers, that are used in their on-the-job evaluations. Here are just a few examples:

http://www.btsa.ca.gov/ba/pubs/pdf/cstpreport.pdf
http://nppc.nol.org/competency.pdf
http://esb.ode.state.oh.us/PDF/Standards_TeachProf_sept07.pdf
http://www.ade.state.az.us/certification/downloads/teacherstandards.pdf


They don't take multiple choice, fill-in-the-bubble standardized tests, and scores, for those standards.

Teachers "meet the standards." They demonstrate mastery of content standards before they are issued a license. They "meet the standards" for their profession when they are evaluated, using whatever system their district chooses.

None of that has anything to do with students' standardized test scores.

Please educate yourself about how teachers get licensed, and how they maintain both those licenses, and their employment, when you want to discuss whether or not teachers "meet standards."

[Joe Fields]

77. Your condescending attitude get nowhere with me.

I wasn't born yesterday, and I am familiar with a great deal more than you might think. This is why I am speaking out. Standards is the word that Madfloridian used. In that context, teachers are held to a standard, based on the test scores of the children that are taught by that given teacher. If the teacher fails, based on their students scores, then the teacher has no right to claim foul. It is a reflection on the teacher and their ability to teach. Period.

But, you teachers have more excuses than Carter has pills. Frankly, I'm fed up with all of your excuses.

We are raising generations of dummies, who have no clue how to spell, how to diagram a sentence, who have no sense of history and can barely do simple math.

Don't even tell me that teachers have no part in this sad equation.

[LWolf]

90. But your persistent spewing makes such a hit.

:rofl:

Your assertion that student scores reflect teachers, and not students, either places you in the ranks of the ignorant or the calculating, willing to use false propaganda to achieve an agenda.

Neither is exactly flattering. I will tell you the truth:

I don't give a damn what you're fed up with. My students know how to spell. They know how to write. They know how to speak. They know how to think. High school teachers routinely tell me that we send them well-prepared students.

When students perform poorly, teachers ARE one part of that equation. ONE part, and not the biggest. Solve the other parts of the equation, and watch them miraculously improve without needing to stone their teachers.

[Name removed]

93. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LWolf]

97. Let's see you make a point without attacking me.

You can't do it. The only thing you can do to argue a point is attack the messenger, because you've got nothing to back up whatever point you are trying to make.

Which, at this point, you've forgotten. You aren't even trying to make a point any more, although you seem to think Carter's pills are a talking point when attacking someone. :dunce:

To help you out:

Student test scores don't evaluate teachers. They evaluate students.

[Joe Fields]

111. "but your persistent spewing makes such a hit."

Who is attacking who?

To be painfully honest, you have lost any credibility with me.

[proud2BlibKansan]

169. And whose posts are being deleted?

[LWolf]

178. It's not painful.

It's hysterical. Why pretend I ever had any credibility with you? That's not honest.

[Hissyspit]

28. No, she is not going to give it a rest, nor does she have to.

[The_Casual_Observer]

30. Teaching children can't really be fit into an assembly line - quality control

process very well. The idea that the whole process of learning can be boiled down to passing a standard test seems to miss the whole point of education. No wonder that the whole system is broken down.

[madfloridian]

33. Thanks for that.

I don't intend to stop. I can't see the post you responded to, but I gather they want me to shut up. I am getting used to that here, and I guess I am over my surprise.

Teachers have become the scapegoats for this administration. It is shameful.

[LWolf]

48. You didn't miss anything worth seeing.

Keep speaking up; many of us greatly appreciate it.

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[tinymontgomery]

74. Here is the new NC teacher evaluation

http://www.ncpublicschools.org/fbs/personnel/evaluation/

Read all the standards that we now have to go through, Unannounced 45 minute evaluations and you better meet every standard or your developing. This is basically impossible. So come in and join the fun, it's a laugh a minute in the classroom now.

[LWolf]

91. My last evaluation in CA about 6 years ago

was supposed to be on one of the "California Standards For the Teaching Profession."

This one:

STANDARD FOR ENGAGING AND SUPPORTING ALL STUDENTS IN LEARNING
Teachers build on students’ prior knowledge, life experience, and interests to
achieve learning goals for all students. Teachers use a variety of instructional
strategies and resources that respond to students’ diverse needs. Teachers facilitate
challenging learning experiences for all students in environments that promote
autonomy, interaction and choice. Teachers actively engage all students in problem
solving and critical thinking within and across subject matter areas. Concepts and
skills are taught in ways that encourage students to apply them in real-life
contexts that make subject matter meaningful. Teachers assist all students to
become self-directed learners who are able to demonstrate, articulate, and evaluate
what they learn.

It was decided that each evaluation would focus on one standard, until all had been addressed, and then we'd start over. This was the standard ASSIGNED BY THE DISTRICT TO ALL TEACHERS for that cycle of evaluations.

Not a bad standard to evaluate for.

Except that we'd also just gotten a new Language Arts adoption. It was decided that all observations and evaluations would be done using reading lessons, since improving reading test scores were a goal for the district. We'd been instructed that we were to "read the teacher's script" and follow the teacher's manual exactly when teaching the new adoption. In order to insure compliance, the district also ordered all principals to do observations of teachers reading from the teacher's manual.

So when we met before his observation, I asked him: "How am I supposed to demonstrate the standard you are evaluating me on if all I do is read from the teacher's manual? How are you supposed to evaluate me on that standard?"

He sighed, said, "I have no idea. Just read the damned thing."

So when he came in I read the teacher's manual to the students. They were surprised, to say the least, since I'd never read to them from a teacher's manual before. The script I was reading was stilted and didn't make a great deal of sense. But I read it all the way through. Then I went back and read it one sentence at a time, explaining what each sentence meant. Then I let them ask all the questions they wanted. One of the questions was, "Why are we doing this this way?" I shrugged and said that's what I was told to do today. They offered a few pithy comments, not about me, but about whoever told me to do things that way, and we moved on.

I got an Obama-like written evaluation: long on eloquence, short on specifics, so that someone who was reading it wouldn't really have any idea what we were actually doing in the classroom. He shrugged and handed it to me to sign. I shrugged, signed, and handed it back.

[tinymontgomery]

117. Yes it sucks

we're not doing it one at a time, all at once. The mandatory training was 8 hours long and if I graded the people from the state that came to give it they would have been below developing, but they work at the state level so they are at the top and not rated on the same program.

[LWolf]

176. I expect you'll have your admin in your room all year

to try to evaluate you on that many things.

Or are you supposed to squeeze them all in for one observation, which, besides near impossible, would be defeating the purpose?

It would be funny, if I weren't a captive audience, that school meetings, inservices, workshops, etc., and many professional conferences, are presented in the exact format we know is ineffective in the classroom.

[Joe Fields]

104. I read all of it. It is not unreasonable.

If you can't hack those standards, then get out of the profession.

I would not want you teaching any children of mine, if you feel that these standards are too strict.

[tinymontgomery]

114. You have to meet these in a 45 minute

snap shot along with every single day. Come on in to the fold if you think it is that easy. I spent 23 years in the Navy going from and I'm a mustang (came up through the ranks) and it was easier then what I'm now up against. The way it works is you have to meet all the standards in the column to meet the standard. So if you hit only one in developing but all in proficient your rated as developing across the board. I don't know if your in the teaching field or not but if your not come join the crowd and join in the fun lots of openings. My school had ten open slots this year, more to come next year.

[Name removed]

122. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[tinymontgomery]

125. Well I left the school at 6 pm today

wrote lesson plans till 2000 and now typing fast at 2100 I don't think I doing to bad. Same schedule 5 days a week. Forgot to say I start the day in school at 0630. Maybe by my writing you can tell the type of class I instruct.

Edit: by the way I'm not bitching. When my kids want to stay (and they do 4 days a week) I stay until their ready to leave. I make them practice stuff most of that time. I'm a 12 month employee and I had a mimium of 7 kids a day coming in and doing stuff. Three days before school started my kids helped teachers put their rooms back together and did special projects for the principal. No other organiztion had kids do that (so I guess I'm doing something right helping them become productive adults), they did it for nothing else then they were helping people. The principal brought them pizza the day before school started, I never told them till I should up the the food so they wouldn't think they would get something out of it. So I guess there are some parents that think I'm doing a good job even though I don't always spell something right, I'm teaching them how to live.

"There are two types of education. One should teach us how to make a living and the other how to live" by John Adams USA President


I work on both.

[proud2BlibKansan]

202. 14 hour day for me yesterday

Another long one today then back on Saturday. Hopefully I can stay rest on Sunday.

But I am not a real teacher, according to the basher. :eyes:

[tinymontgomery]

121. By the way

based on what your writing, I wouldn't want your child in my program, and I instruct one that I can put students out of. You, I'm only guessing here, would be a pain in the ass parent to put up with. I would be a teacher that wouldn't put up with you and flat out tell you to take your kid somewhere else. With the principal I have now I would be total supported.

[Joe Fields]

124. lol

[Joe Fields]

79. And you just want to pretend that teachers aren't part of the problem.

You probably have me on ignore, which doesn't surprise me. If I don't act like a syncophant, then you just ignore me?

Nice.

[nadinbrzezinski]

36. Where exactly can I find YOUR evaluation?

Oh wait... you'd have a cow if YOUR PRIVACY was violated that way.

Now if you don't get it, some of us do. And no she does not have to give it it a rest.

[Joe Fields]

80. I get evaluated every day. But you wouldn't believe it, if I posted it

anyway, because you have your own preset group of ideas that teachers are gods and can do no wrong.

[nadinbrzezinski]

89. I did not say that

you did.

Your evals would not be posted due to PRIVACY LAWS by your employer... so you want them to be changed for one class of people due to your own biases?

Okie dokie.

There is this thing called slippery slope, enjoy.

[Joe Fields]

98. Your response implies it. You tell me how else I'm supposed

to interpret it. Don't be coy. You want to take a shot at me, then do it. Don't be bashful.

I'll tell you straight up. I see absolutely nothing wrong with posting teacher evaluations publicly.

Any personal information? Yes. Big problem with that.

You don't want to recognize that there are many unqualified teachers? Your cross to bear. Not mine. I think it's high time this was made public. If you have a problem with it, then I suggest you quit trying to score points on a message board with like minded teachers and go to the source.

[nadinbrzezinski]

107. Interpret what you may want to interpret Joe

It is time you comprehend, or not, I don't give a fuck, that doing this breaks privacy laws.

Have a good fucking long life.

Welcome to my ignore list.

[Joe Fields]

113. Wonderful. I am not in lockstep, so put me on ignore. Not surprised.

[maryf]

123. You remind me of my favorite thread from DU

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7210426

[nadinbrzezinski]

126. Thanks I had not seen that thread

:-)

[Joe Fields]

130. I would strongly suggest practicing what you preach. n/t

[maryf]

132. touche, I posted some info for you above...post 131

and for posting the other thread I am guilty of switching the subject. You did remind me of the thread though.

[maryf]

133. I try to use it as a guide...

I'm not real successful all the time...

G-J has my great thanks for it...

[proud2BlibKansan]

140. amen

[proud2BlibKansan]

109. Every day?

Then what's the holdup? Post yesterday's evaluation.

[Diane R]

51. "Will you please, for chrissake give it a rest?". I couldn't agree more.

[proud2BlibKansan]

103. Still waiting on your most recent evaluation

You should be more than willing to share it. Come on, put your money where your mouth is.

[Joe Fields]

106. You first. Anyway, you wouldn't believe it if I posted it.

But I'm dying to see yours!!!

[proud2BlibKansan]

112. Are you in kindergarten?

This isn't a game where one of us goes first.

Your credibility is at stake here, Joe. Post that evaluation. If you can't find yesterday's then Monday's would be just fine.

[Name removed]

118. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[proud2BlibKansan]

142. Is that how you talked when you were a Head Start bigwig?

Did you tell people to fuck off, Joe?

[Joe Fields]

144. Only people like you.

[Marr]

174. I'd like to see it, too.

If it's really such a minor thing, and you really are evaluated so regularly, what's the problem?

[Joe Fields]

198. I have no problem, but you sure do.

[Freddie Stubbs]

29. Can't let the unwashed masses have too much information

[maryf]

141. they might rise up!

:thumbsup:

[Llewlladdwr]

31. So then, what is a valid way to determine teacher performance?

Or are we to believe that what teachers do is so esoteric that we mere mortals can't possibly tell a good teacher from a bad one?

[madfloridian]

32. Oh dear God. I think I answered that many times in many posts.

Do a search or ask some teachers how they are evaluated.

That is not a very intelligent question, so it does not deserve much of an answer.

I am not going to look up the answer for you after such an insult.

What is going on at this forum?

[Llewlladdwr]

34. I think one of the problems...

is that every time some methodology for evaluating teacher performance is suggested teachers rise up en masse telling the rest of us that it's not valid, or unfair, or some other complaint.

And frankly, I don't think responses like your's are helpful. Is this how a teacher should handle a fairly simple request for information? Does it really seem persuasive to just call someone a dumb ass?

[madfloridian]

37. Oh, so teachers are supposed to meek and mild and not fight back?

We are working with children, your children. They are not like an assembly line product.

I notice this is becoming the bash teacher forum, and I find that simply amazing.

Democrats don't stand up for public education, and most are going along with it.

[msanthrope]

47. You aren't supposed to have questions on threads like this..

You are supposed to read the OP's journal, and limit your participation on this thread to agreeing that Obama is evil and Arne Duncan is the antichrist.

It's just how it's done....

[Diane R]

52. Yes. No challenging the daily Obama/Duncan bashing.

[msanthrope]

55. You forgot the journals....

;-)

[Diane R]

56. The daily journal in the upper right hand corner? Lol.

The headlines in those journals are what I would expect at Free Republic. I'm sure they cheer all Republicans who happen to drop by.

[msanthrope]

66. Correct. Ask a question, get directed to a journal

or chided that you have not kept up with the screeds.

The inability of teachers to direct one to primary source material that bolsters their arguments is a sad commentary on the state of pedagogy.

[liberation]

149. Unabashedly Pro-Union stances at freerepublic? LOL

Sorry, didn't meant to intrude the circle jerk. Carry on.

[Joe Fields]

81. nice dodge

[chervilant]

35. Sigh...

...here's hoping you are honestly seeking additional information to broaden your understanding of the established protocols for evaluating teacher performance:

1) We teachers must pass rigorous certification exams before we can teach.

2) We must complete a significant number of continuing education classes every year.

3) We are regularly observed by various members of our schools' administrations, and 'evaluated' with lengthy, often cumbersome 'professional development assessments.'

4) We typically hold ourselves to higher standards, premised on our awareness of how precious are our students.

I have spent the last three years in an accelerated program to become a certified teacher. My friends and family think I'm certifiably insane to be pursuing a career in teaching. However, each and every time a young person tells me that I "explain math so clearly!" or I "make math easy to understand," I am reminded of the core reason I want to teach.

Mr. Duncan epitomizes the problems facing Public Education today. Instead of blaming and shaming, Arne, how about inviting key educators to DC for a confab about how to pull our schools into the 21st century? By the way, increased funding should have primacy in your blueprint for change.

[madfloridian]

38. Very nice post. Add pop-in observations from principal and county admins

any time at any hour. Then the in the office evaluation of that observation.

Arne Duncan IS the problem, and he is fast becoming a problem for Obama.

[MadHound]

43. So when can we expect your job evaluations and records to be hitting the front page

After all, if it's fine for teachers to have their personal info on view for everybody, it should be fine for everybody, including you.

[Joe Fields]

83. If it is determined that my eval should be made public, then

you won't see me squawk like all of you poor teachers. You all must need a hell of a lot of cheese with all that whine.

[liberation]

150. LOL, talk about "nice dodge"

projection being what it is...

[Joe Fields]

199. See, you already don't believe me.

I stated that I wouldn't have a problem with my evaluation being made public, and that is the god's truth.

But, I feel no need to post it, and that is also the god's truth.

What are YOU hiding behind?

Just what are you and so many others here afraid of?

Having a light shone up your ass to expose just what deficiencies you have as teachers?

I'm getting a little tired of hearing the same old mantra from so many of you here on this site.

[AlecBGreen]

39. I am a teacher

Here is the problem with stating "Teacher X has a 80% pass rate but Teacher Y has a 90% pass rate":

I teach Earth Science which is offered to high school freshmen. The state standards test by which we are judged is (fittingly) called the SOL.

#1) Rich/super-smart kids skip Earth Science and go straight to Biology (with administrative blessings) so they can get to AP classes faster. Each semester I lose 10+ students (out of 70) that would pass the SOL on day 1. So right off the start, I am handicapped.

#2) From K - 8 we have a NON-RETENTION policy which means regardless if the kid fails or not, they are promoted to the next grade. That is no longer the case when they enter the 9th grade and my class. How many do you think learn the lesson the easy way by being told "Hey kids, I know you are used to not doing **** and being passed but that doesnt happen in 9th grade." hint - it doesnt work. The people who failed k-8 often fail 9th too, and consequently, my SOL.

#3) ESL students who enter our school take Earth Science first. Try explaining the difference between an intrusive igneous rock, a foliated metamorphic rock and a clastic sedimentary rock to someone who is just learning English (and do it in a day). Earth Science is a very vocabulary-intensive class and it is difficult to say the least for non-native English speakers.

#4) More than 50% of my students are on free/reduced lunch. A third are ESL. A third are Special Ed.

I am not giving excuses, I am stating facts. I work hard and I dont give up on ANY STUDENTS if they come to school (truancy is another huge problem here). I love my job and I am proud of the work I do and the success of my students. I am in my 5th year teaching and every semester my SOL scores have gone up. I am currently getting 80 to 85% pass the SOL. According to my district, my administrators, the Dept of ED, the VA DOE, etc etc I am not doing enough. If I dont get over 90% to pass, I am a failure. Think about that. In a class of 20 kids, if 2 kids fail, I FAIL. </rant>

Arne Duncan can suck it.

[AlecBGreen]

40. p.s. one last note

Last year our school said that Chemistry (a course with an SOL at the end) is no longer required to graduate. Students may instead take ecology or environmental science (non-SOL courses). In other words, the kids taking the course went from EVERYBODY to THE ONES WHO WANT TO TAKE IT.

Chemistry increased its SOL pass rate from 75% to over 90% in one year. Meanwhile Im hovering in the low to mid-80s. An uninformed person (like, oh, say, Arne Duncan) would say THATS GREAT! Earth Science should be more like Chemistry! without knowing any of the reality behind the situation.

Apples & oranges.

[mopinko]

164. this method compares teachers in the same school

it is apples and apples. and it is looking at year in and year out data. it is not about pass rates, it is about the amount of improvement from one year to the next, about teachers whose students end up testing lower at the end of one year than they did the last, consistently. that is just not acceptable, even for the toughest of the tough to teach kids.

[madfloridian]

175. Does it insure the same students, none moved out or in?

Does it include variables such as illness, family problems, absences et al?

You are advocating for one single test to be the ultimate judge of a teacher.

I wonder if you would tell me please why bother with grade books? Why bother with assignments and essays? Why bother with work samples, open houses, parent conferences?

Hell, now that you mention it...just a single test would be so much easier than real education.

[mopinko]

180. the analysis found those variables to be overstated factors

in teacher success. but since it was multiple tests over time, such variables would be well distributed and therefore mostly irrelevant.
and you are seriously, seriously misstating my position. this is not ONE test. it is a battery of tests, in multiple subjects, across several years and several student populations. i don't know how you can claim that that represents one test. it is thousands of data points. and nobody i know of, including me, advocates using only this data to evaluate teachers. the highest number i have seen is 50% of the total evaluation.
as far as grades, etc, of course they are useful measures of students work across the school year. but they are also very subjective.

you seem to be the one advocating for evaluating teachers based on one test by insisting that teacher certification tests are an adequate tool.

[madfloridian]

41. SOL ...lol. Very thoughtful post.

In Florida we have no-pass in 3rd grade, and I think maybe 10th....not sure about the 10th. Just a couple of years ago in 3rd, they could stay there forever until they passed a single test, zero-tolerance for disabilities or anything else.

One thing also I would imagine would arise in teaching science...using my area as an example.

In our county most of the school board are creationists. Teachers have been free until the last 2 years to teach evolution in science or to teach creationism.

I would think some of that would be hard to overcome when teaching science per factual data. Many in our area come to school from home-schooling about 4th or 5th grade, usually quite well qualifed academically. However many come with little tolerance for others and a refusal to believe in any scientific explanation of the universe.

[Egnever]

85. I am,not sure why teachers continue to pretend

All of the factors you listed will not be taken into account in any evaluations. Do you really believe you are the only person to raise these issues or that Arne or whoever else making these decisions are unaware of the contributing factors and that adjustments wont be made?

It sounds like your situation needs adjustment. I don't think evaluations should be based on test scores alone and according to the article neither does Arne, it only accounts for 30%. The point is schools are failing and failing miserably. You are right someone who has flunked k-8 will more than ;likely flunk 9th and therein lies part of the problem we should not be advancing students who fail and yet it is done routinely now as if a failing student has no effect on the class as a whole.

Teacher evals are not the only changes that need to be made there need to be many more changes but teacher do need to be held accountable as a part of those changes. As I said up thread there is a teacher at my wifes school that kicked a kid in class but still teaches at the same school today. There is failure being allowed on many levels in the school system and it needs to stop.

[proud2BlibKansan]

156. Call the child abuse hotline [phone]

Your wife is a mandated reporter if she witnessed this assault. She could lose her job if she doesn't report this.

[Egnever]

208. What a stupid response

This was reported and there were internal hearings on it and she is still employed in the school. She was suspended for 3 weeks while the internal hearings were run and then returned to the classroom. This is a school that consistently ranks in the top percent of a very large school district and the principle is top notch but she could not remove this teacher despite multiple students witnessing the event. I dont know all of the details of why she was alowed to stay I only know the incident happened and that she is still there.

Your response to me on the matter which I see you chose to repeat multiple times in this thread is utterly useless and has no bearing on the situation whatsoever.

[proud2BlibKansan]

210. So it didn't happen and you are slandering this teacher

You do understand what an investigation entails?

BTW, it's princiPAL, not principle.

[AlecBGreen]

183. because they ARENT taken into account

"I am not sure why teachers continue to pretend all of the factors you listed will not be taken into account in any evaluations"

We assume they wont be taken into account because right now they are not taken into account. In my state (Virginia) it does not matter one iota what the situation in the classroom is. The sole metric is "how many of your students passed the end of year SOL test?" Thats it.

[Egnever]

209. Yet this article explains that they want to change that

I dont understand why people chime in when they dont even read the article.

[TBF]

42. Education and same-sex marriage are the issues where we are seeing

it most blatantly, but it's coming through with unemployment, social security, war-mongering etc...

We all should have paid much more attention to Obama when he talked about Reagan:

"I think Ronald Reagan changed the trajectory of America in a way that Richard Nixon did not and in a way that Bill Clinton did not. He put us on a fundamentally different path because the country was ready for it. I think they felt like with all the excesses of the 1960s and 1970s and government had grown and grown but there wasn't much sense of accountability in terms of how it was operating. I think people, he just tapped into what people were already feeling, which was we want clarity we want optimism, we want a return to that sense of dynamism and entrepreneurship that had been missing."

http://openleft.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=3263

[madfloridian]

44. That paean to Reagan has stayed in my mind.

Like Reagan and PATCO....like Obama and teachers' unions.

[truth2power]

45. Something interesting happened when I read your OP, madflo...

It was likely the phrase, "Says it will make us stronger."

I thought, there's something wrong with this guy..."He has issues" as they used to say. What's in his background?

Then I start reading your OP and come to this: "There is a mean side to Arne Duncan that turns my stomach. He is ruthless in what HE wants,..." So my intuitive response wasn't far off.

He puts me in mind of the husband who beats up his wife, "for her own good." If the truth were known I think one would discover something in his past, some supposed injury that he's trying to work through. He's letting his own "stuff" get in the way of the job he's supposed to be doing.

Some DUers will just call this psychobabble. I don't care. More often than not I've been proven correct in these feelings.

[msanthrope]

46. I hope this includes disciplinary actions against a teacher, if any.

Like other professionals, such as cops, lawyers, and doctors, available teacher info should include disciplinary information.

[LWolf]

49. This doesn't actually include anything about the teacher.

Just student test scores grouped by teacher.

You will not see the standardized test scores for the tests the teacher had to pass as part of the licensing process.

You will not see teachers' annual evaluation reports.

You won't see anything that evaluates teacher knowledge or practice. You won't see anything that is any kind of evaluation. You'll see a "value-added" analysis of student scores that attempts to "rate" teachers. Since the analysis is based on a flawed premise, that rating will not be valid.

When do you plan to publish YOUR evaluations and disciplinary information for the rest of us to see?

[msanthrope]

54. The bar association makes disciplinary information available.

And, my percentages are available to anyone interested in being my client. So are references. In a free and open marketplace, I would never expect any client to take me on my smile alone....why should students?

Why shouldn't your students know about your disciplinary record, and your value-added scores?

In fact, if you think other scores and evaluations are relevant, why not give them to your students and their parents?

What information do you think would give your kids and parents an accurate picture of your abilities as a teacher?

[LWolf]

57. My disciplinary record is private.

Not that there is anything in it to see. That disciplinary file IS available to districts who are considering hiring a teacher, as it should be. As is my entire personnel file.

As a matter of fact, I reviewed files on several people who have applied to fill a temporary position in my school today. We're interviewing later this week. My recommendation? Don't call the candidate whose license was suspended for inappropriate use of school technology. My district requires disclosure of any previous disciplinary action as part of the application process.

I think my personnel file is relevant to my employers, and my prospective employers. As it should be.

My teaching license is one piece of information that speaks to my qualifications to teach; it's on the wall in my classroom, and if I didn't have it, I wouldn't be there. Since I have to continually update my skills in order to regularly renew that license, my content and pedagogical knowledge has been proven. Also posted: my "Teacher of the Year" plaque and some of the many letters and notes from former students, which make the best references I know.

Beyond that, I'd suggest they call me and set up a time to meet me and talk in person, if they are concerned.

While turn about is fair play, I won't call on parents to provide me with their parental records so that I can judge whether or not they are good enough parents to allow their children to attend my class, let alone ask every parent in the nation to release their parental records publicly.

[cjbgreen]

173. Discipline

Most states make public the records of teachers who are disciplined.

[Diane R]

53. Parents need to know about disciplinary actions against teachers.

[LWolf]

58. Why?

Prospective employers need to know about disciplinary actions. Why do parents?

If the transgression was so mild that the teacher is still employed, I don't see what constructive purpose there is in creating a climate of distrust.

Frankly, though, disciplinary records, or other private personnel records, don't have to be publicly released to create an unhealthy climate and relationship between parents and teachers.

All you have to do is go into that relationship with an oppositional, reactionary, accusatory attitude, and the climate is polluted.

The single most powerful thing teachers and parents can do to facilitate a successful year for a student is to approach each other as partners, not enemies, even when we aren't particularly "like-minded." Keeping the focus on a mutual commitment to students' success is vital. Viewing each other as the enemy is fatal.

I don't know if you are a parent or not. For the sake of discussion, how would you, as a parent, approach your child's teacher in order to develop a healthy working partnership?

[Diane R]

59. Parents need to keep their children safe. And there are some teachers who are harmful to kids.

As I've said before, I taught with a man who was a Special Reading teacher to some of my First grade students. He choked one of them (other reports of other kids, too) when the poor little kid couldn't read. Nothing happened to the teacher. Don't you think parents have a right to know that information so they can protect their children?

[MichiganVote]

61. Since you taught with the man why didn't YOU let parents know?

You had a legal and ethical obligation. Did you fulfill it or not?

[Diane R]

157. The parents went to the principal, who told them he did not believe them.

It was a very low income school, and the parents were intimidated into silence. The Teacher's Aide was very upset and continued to watch this man get away with abusing kids for about 7 more years until he retired. I was a second year teacher, and really did not know what more to do after the principal covered for the teacher.

[Name removed]

171. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

189. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LWolf]

94. There is a process to remove teachers who are harmful to kids.

I don't know a practicing teacher who doesn't want to see that process used.

All it takes is evidence. Saying "there are some teachers who are harmful to kids" is not evidence. I fully support any parent who has evidence to take it to first the teacher, then the principal, and then the district.

Student test scores are not evidence of harm.

[liberation]

147. Who needs evidence?

When made up anecdotes will just do?

[LWolf]

177. Apparently, way too many don't.

:grr:

[madfloridian]

60. About 25 years ago we had to test fall/spring, same test.

It was used to judge the teacher from the year before and the present teacher.

Sounds good on paper, but think about the students coming and going. It is really not a true picture. They finally called a halt to it because of the lack of reliability and cost.

So everything old is new again? Wonder if it will work this time?

[Starry Messenger]

62. Did anyone know before 2008 that the Democratic Party was itching to do this to education?

I feel like we were fooled by a lot of people who are just now revealing their contempt for teachers and education. Some people here said they could see the signs before the election. I wish I had known where they were reading, because I feel blindsided by the reckless course that has been embarked on with such glee and enthusiasm.

[madfloridian]

67. DLC has been pushing this for a long time.

Al From called for charter schools even further back than 2000. I did find an article in which he calls for conversion to charter schools....from 2000

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/3330

If you search at the DLC website under education, charter schools, or school reform...you will find pages.

That group is apparently still setting policy. Obama came out in favor of charter schools in 2008, or maybe earlier.

[Starry Messenger]

76. Boy have I been living under a rock.

That DLC Education page looks like it was copied and pasted from the American Enterprise Institute and other right wing think tanks. http://www.dlc.org/ndol_ka.cfm?kaid=110 WTF is the Democratic Party doing promoting the "ideas" of Frederick Hess?? Damn, the penny just dropped big-time! So, basically I voted for the right wing two years ago. Well, won't be making that mistake again.

[burnsei sensei]

64. Free the teachers. nt

[JackDragna]

65. People who support this have no concept of the unintended consequences.

So papers publish the standardized test scores of teachers. Guess what happens? If you work at a public school in a low-income area, the image presented to the public is that you're an incompetent. Never mind that you could be a great teacher who intentionally goes into the trenches to help these kids, or merely inexperienced, or taking over a class in an unfamilar subject for a teacher who had to leave. It's going to look, to the public, like you're a failure.

As with all measures of student performance that are based primarily on testing, the teachers at well-to-do schools will look like the second coming of Socrates. Their kids, after all, will tend to come from better homes, have better nutrition and be able to afford all kinds of educational aids others cannot, such as tutoring sessions and learning software. Glowing praise shall be heaped upon them as models for our schools. Meanwhile, the natural consequence of this Scarlet Letter crusade will come down on the poorer schools: laws will inevitably be passed that take away their funding and force their children into private institutions paid for by taxpayers. At the very minimum, the "bad" teachers will be harried by a public led to believe that test scores, by themselves, mean something significant about a teacher's skills.

Those who criticize teachers live under the illusion, expressed time and again, that teaching in public schools is the most secure of jobs, providing people who are incompetent or sadists the chance to essentially have a cushy job on the public dole. Underlying this argument, of course, is the belief that there's enough of such individuals to merit a national emergency, or that current methods of discipling education professionals are substandard. Do you seriously think principals at schools want problem teachers? Do you think parents, especially those who send more than one child through a school, sit back and do nothing when they know a bad teacher is at a school?

Teachers already have a job where public input into your performance is high. I can think of few other professions where the public at large becomes so involved in how you do your job. In my scant three years of teaching, I have defended my methods and philosophy of teaching against more parents than I care to count, and cordially discussed it with even more.

Does the public have a right to know about teacher performance? Sure. If they want to know the whole story, however, there should be more done than cherry-picking statistics guaranteed to make those who work in low-income areas look bad.

[Jakes Progress]

70. People who support this have no concept.

Like the old time religion, they go by what they're told. The preacher says it's okay so it must be. Obama says it's okay, so it must be. Living that way is so much easier than thinking. Just pick someone super cool and dreamy and let them tell you what to think. Really does ease the old noggin to have someone else do all that work for you.

[Egnever]

86. Really?

Cause what are the unintended consequences you see coming from this? Its cute to spew your old time religion crap but meanwhile our schools are failing in a glorious fashion all over the country. Change needs to come to the system and despite your and others refusal to acknowledge it there are a lot of problem or failing teachers out there. Teachers are not the sole problem by any means but there is a problem there. I know of a teacher at my wifes school that kicked a child and is still employed, the poster above knows one that choked a child and is still employed these are much more serious than poor teaching performance and yet they remain it certainly doesn't lead to confidence that performance issues are being addressed as they should be.

The vast majority of teachers are doing a wonderful and largely thankless job but there needs to be a better way to hold teachers accountable when they are failing, be it increased training or outright firing and to have that happen there needs to be some form of measurement of performance.

[Jakes Progress]

128. Tired old lines. bennet used them long before you.

"our schools are failing in a glorious fashion" What a crock. I know that has become the perceived wisdom of the day, but it is still a piece of propaganda begun by bill bennet and grover norquist. If you want refutation, you can't just sit down in from the the television and receive wisdom. If you want to learn, try "Manufactured Crisis" by Berlinner and Biddle. Then get copies of Ed Week and the dozens of articles by Gerald Bracey. Bracey was well known for taking people like bennet and chester finn on at conferences. Some ass like finn would stand up and spew his "our schools are failing in glorious fashion" clap trap. He would give his version of statistics to support his drivel. Bracey would stand up and systematically dismantle and refute every single statement by finn. Then finn would get up and face the audience, pause, and without addressing any one of Bracey's facts say in a loud voice "As we all know, our schools are failing in a glorious fashion."

If a republican tells a big enough lie for long enough and gets the support of the media behind them, even Democrats fall for it.

As for your anecdotal examples of horrible teachers, that makes two out of millions. Math is not on your side.

The thing you should ask yourself is whether you would be supporting these proposals if mccain were president and using gingrich to drive "Race to the Top"? These are the dreams of neocon fanatics and corporate raiders. I'm sorry that a Democrat is pushing them, but it is the same as if a Democratic administration were pushing for a move to more Jim Crow laws, a reversal of Roe v Wade, and a permanent elimination of taxes on the rich. This is not a progressive, liberal, or traditional Democratic agenda.

So read up on the state of education and how politics and wall street are affecting it. Learning is a good thing.

[JackDragna]

187. Those measurements already exist..

..and they don't involve publishing the professional details of teachers. My principal knows who is and isn't doing their job and has canned people who don't measure up.

[mopinko]

192. actually, the analysis showed nothing of the sort.

it showed that there were good and bad teachers scattered throughout the district, and showed that good teachers reach kids no matter how they come to them.
the sad part was this data was not even looked at by lausd. poor performing teachers could have been helped. high performing teachers could have shared their knowledge. this is not just about punishing, ostracizing, or firing teachers. this is about kids, and making sure that every kid has the best possible teacher. you can see that as blaming teachers, but there is no more important element to a good education than an effective teacher. the best supported, most ready to learn kid is not going to achieve with a bad teacher. it is just that simple.

[mopinko]

71. i strongly urge members to go to the original la times story.

http://articles.latimes.com/2010/aug/14/local/la-me-teachers-value-20100815

it is actually very interesting. to me it seems like a good way to evaluate teachers, and districts that are looking at it are talking about making it 30-50% of evaluations. this strikes me as perfectly fair. the analysis looks at the year to year scores of whole classes of kids, across multiple years.
the study contained many surprises, including showing that some teachers who were thought to be highly effective had kids who gained nothing in test scores, or even who fell from one year to the next. it also showed that effective teachers are not clustered in wealthier districts, but spread throughout the system. they also found that factors like race and poverty do not have nearly the impact that was thought. lots of "conventional wisdom" left on the side of the road.
the really sad thing is that lacsd had this info and DID NOT EVEN LOOK AT IT. they could have been using it to help the teachers that were not performing well, nor to examine what effective teachers were doing right. that kind of willful ignorance on the part of a school system needs to stop, and stop fast.

[madfloridian]

105. Those teachers called out by name....were all factors considered??

I read the article, and I don't think so. Did they consider the type of kids they had, the make-up of the class, the cultural aspects over which the teacher has no control??

Why were these teachers considered highly effective? There must have been a reason. Did you consider they might have been effective teachers even if their kids did not score well on one test?

One year I had a class with 5 ADHD, serious cases and behavior problems, 4 non-readers, 3 who did not speak English at all. I had no help except an aide for two hours a week. They did not do well on the test. They were not able to do so. Did that make me a bad teacher? I am quite sure you think so.

I am glad you think it is so reasonable. Good for you. That is your right.

I think judging on one test is ludicrous. Pathetic, and wrong.

[tinymontgomery]

129. Your absolutely right

I proctored an EOC test for history, one kid came in, filled out the info on the test sheet, then put his head down and went to sleep. The history teacher paid the price for that kids lack of performance. I guess the kid and parents didn't have anything to do with his performance on the test, but their not evaluated.

[Joe Fields]

135. excuses, excuses.

Are you an educator or a union steward?

[proud2BlibKansan]

138. Glad you brought up excuses

What's yours for failing to post your evaluation?

[Joe Fields]

145. I have a major disagreement with you. I am not interested in

pissing contests.

I think it is quite obvious, given the level of discussion, just what kind of teacher you are. Thank god my son did not have you for an instructor.

[proud2BlibKansan]

203. Joe all you do do is jump in and piss on teachers

That's been your mantra here since you started posting.

Don't be intellectually dishonest and claim you don't want a pissing contest. You're dealing with college educated people. That bullshit won't fly.

[mopinko]

162. it was not one test.

it was multiple classes over multiple years. they were called out by name because the school system refused to use the data at all, even internally. and as far as external factors, yes, they compared apples to apples- the teacher in one classroom to the teacher across the hall.
even if they were all special ed kids, if they make no progress in that teacher's class year after year, that is not a good teacher.

parents do not know who the good teachers are. as the study shows, teachers though to be effective weren't. teachers rewarded for being effective weren't. besides, few schools allow parents to pick their kids teachers. a more nuanced study that looked at different learning styles so that more intelligent placements can be made would be great. but this was a good analysis of a broad, deep data set. it is as good as we have right now. and nobody is talking about using this as the sole measure of teachers. school districts are talking about 30-50% of evaluations.

[msanthrope]

155. When I posted this study and its findings last week, it was

pooh-poohed as being obviously flawed and not testing the right things....

I found the study fascinating, and well done.

These threads aren't about facts, however. They are about an agenda.

[tinymontgomery]

78. Along with the teacher scores

we should post how often the parents sit at the dinner table and have real conversations, how often they called the teacher, how much time did they spend at the school supporting their child, how much time they spent ensuring homework was done or even knowing what work they were doing in each class. I could go on and on. I'm all for transparency lets put everyones out there then it will be fair.

[mopinko]

163. i would give the highest reward to the teachers who taught

kids no matter how they come to them. some parents give everything they have got, but they have very little. parents who work 3 jobs, parents who speak no english, hell parents who are addicted but love their kid just the same. that is what the public schools are supposed to be about, raising up those who are at the bottom. helping those that are unable to do it all.
the point is that this data should be used to help those that do poorly and study those that do well. what would you then do to help those parents who you find wanting?

[madfloridian]

181. No, you can not excuse parents who are poor or busy from responsibility.

"some parents give everything they have got, but they have very little. parents who work 3 jobs, parents who speak no english, hell parents who are addicted but love their kid just the same. that is what the public schools are supposed to be about, raising up those who are at the bottom. helping those that are unable to do it all."

Education is more than a one way street.

Parents, teachers, students....the school environment.

You can not let parents off the hook at all.

[mopinko]

184. and just what do you propose to do with the parents who

fail your evaluation? unless you have resources in place to help those who "fail", there is no point in passing out grades. and if you have those resources available, i think there is a way to connect them without the kind of process that you have described as humiliating when applied to teachers.
and actually, i believe it was during arne's tenure that chicago schools proposed a parent report card. but they came to the same conclusion i did- unless you have something to offer those that struggle, there is no point.

and that should also be the point of these stats on teachers. not to single people out and destroy them, but to help those that fall short, and learn from those that are shine.

[madfloridian]

186. Parents who "fail my evaluation"??

I have no idea what you are espousing now. I don't argue beyond a certain point with moderators, so I am backing off.

[mopinko]

190. mad-

i may disagree with you, but you're ok with me. sorry if you feel we can't talk.
peace.

[tinymontgomery]

193. I keep my spaces open till

5pm or later (so working parents can pick them up after work) . I offer any kind of help they need, I have students that will help tutor, I have computer banks in my two class rooms for students to use any time. I take them on field trips to both historic sites and 3 colleges a year. I teach them how to stand an speak to groups, we went to the school board and gave them a year end review, the students did that. I have given them study guides that are the exact test. Last year I sent two to one week college programs, one to Daytona and one to USD, two to a sailing camp, two to a leadership academy. This is only about half of what I do. During the school year I work at least 2 Saturdays a month with the students and out of 8 years 5 of my spring vacations I turned in to 4 day overnight trips during that time (my vacation time, didn't get paid for it had to use vacation days).

Out of 100 students, most don't study the test, only about 10 will stay after school and this past summer I held a trip to UVA and Monticello and I could barely get 15 students, the only cost to them was food money. By the way I'm a Geo Bachelor. I'm a 12 month employee and my rooms were open to any and all of my students 4 days a week, 10 hours a day this summer, only about 6 students a day came in. So tell me, how much more do I have to do to get the students interested and to excel. Sorry, I won't pick them up in my car (law suites), being a geo bachelor I can't afford to by their food or clothing. I'm giving my all along with giving up my family 5 days a week.

By the way, the kids that go on the trips and stay after school, we have a blast and I find it the most rewarding time of teaching, don't have to follow all the rules, and they are learning a lot of life skills, not just academics, they also make the honor role. Fortunately I don't teach an EOC class. I've spoken to parents who just flat out refuse to let their kids stay after, take no interest in the grades and just flat out tell me to stop calling or their going to the school board, then I'm sorry, I'll do what I can to get them to excel but I'll only get through to about 2 or 3, the other 75 will be at the lower end. Three weeks into semester I hold a open house (7pm so their normally out of work) (snacks provided) for parents to learn everything about our program, we had 4 show up, and I know it's all my fault. I have actually lost sleep and weight (I'm only 150 lbs) and at times risked my health worrying about this.

I know the standard answer from most " Your not happy or satisfied then fucking quite". Who is willing to take my place and maintain this pace, very very few. I'm not bitching but people should understand what some of us are doing out here.

So your question of "what would you then do to help those parents who you find wanting" I don't know what else can I do, I am always open to suggestions.

[mia]

82. How about publishing a list of students who don't do assignments

and compare it to their test scores.

[mopinko]

185. i can promise you that the correlation is less than you expect

i have some very bright kids who were bored to tears in school and didn't do that much homework. not that i didn't try, but there were just not mechanisms in place to transmit the right info to parents. they always tested at the top of their classes anyway. and lots of kids are the at the other end. i suspect you would get a nice bell curve that doesn't really tell you much.

[cjbgreen]

84. This is not about student data or reform

When Obama initially announced his appointment of Arne Duncan and when I read more about RTTT, I was puzzled by the push for charter schools, a republican agenda, leading to more segregation and less oversight, and turns over public schools to special interests. I was taken back by Arne's attack on teachers and Arne's praising the school leaders who used bullying and threats. These tactics seem reminiscent of Bush and Cheney and at best ineffective models of effective leadership. The Obama and Duncan strategy I hoped would evolve based on research and results that would drive future practices and would include consideration of child development, assessment, learning theory, learning styles, analysis of data. I hoped that the rhetoric against teachers would change and would focus on serious efforts and innovations that focus on student success as measured by multiple factors. I hoped that threats and intimidation would not be models of leadership. But more and more evidence points to the failure of this policy. More and more educational leaders are concerned about the dire consequences of this slash and burn approach to teaching and learning. The results of the "reform effort" are not being seriously examined. http://gfbrandenburg.wordpress.com/
RTTT pushes states and school districts to support charter schools and "strong mayoral control of schools" which in many states contribute to more segregation and unequal services. So after noticing that classes sizes are increasing and supplies are diminishing in Public (not charter schools) in New York, California etc. I decided to compare public to California "public" charter and found that Aspire, a "public" charter school in california has at least 8 donors who give over 1 million dollars. How many students are being served by Aspire? According to the Aspire web site: "As of the 2009-"2010 school year, Aspire serves a total of over 7,500 students in grades K-12 at 25 locations throughout the state. Aspire plans to open three to four new schools each year." http://www.aspirepublicschools.org/?q=partners

The over $1 million dollar contributors include:
California Department of Education - Sacramento, CA.
Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation - Seattle, WA
Reed Hastings & Patty Quillin - Los Gatos, CA
New Schools Venture Fund - San Francisco, CA
Stuart Foundation - San Francisco, CA
The Walton Family Foundation - Bentonville, AR
The Broad Foundation - Los Angeles, CA
The Charter School Growth Fund - Broomfield, CO
Charles and Helen Schwab Foundation - Palo Alto, CA
James Irvine Foundation - San Francisco, CA
Michael and Susan Dell Foundation - Austin, TX
This is not about teacher performance. This is about dismantling public education. This is the Shock Doctrine in action with its sites on Public Education. Take the money away from public schools, create an excuse, establish horrible working conditions and lobby Washington, D.C. The public schools were bought and paid for and results don't matter. Reform is not a new word to educators. School districts have been using data to support continuous improvement for the last twenty years. The only thing new is the Bush/Obama administrations definition of reform "blame teachers". Which for anyone who attended public or private schools is pretty safe, because anyone can think of some difficult situation in an educational setting, or work setting or family setting etc.

[madfloridian]

96. "slash and burn approach to teaching and learning."

Very good point.

[Joe Fields]

136. more excuse for poor teacher performance.

[cjbgreen]

154. A Challenge to readers!

Follow the money, follow the foundations and find out how many of the non-profits involved in charter school have the same names, Goldman Sachs, Gates, Eli Broad, Waltman Family, look at the Boards. Did you know that all these people are Board Members of the NewSchools Venture Fund which contributed to Aspire. Why do the same names appear? Did you know that Gates bought 500,000 shares of Goldman Sachs. Our schools are being sold to the highest bidder and our communities are broke. This is not about kids, it is all about making profit off our children and abusing the professionals that made children their life work. Think about what this will look like when Republicans are in power, think about what the curriculum will include or exclude, think about what will no longer be available to all children. We've already lost art, music, pe, counseling. Scapegoating any group is a ruse to steal.

[sulphurdunn]

88. This is all starting to sound like the cultural

revolution in China. Before you know it teachers will be making public confessions for their failures.

[Canuckistanian]

108. Who is "we"?

The corporations now salivating at the sound of the bell of public money?

Pavlov would be proud.

[Danger Mouse]

115. Disappointment after disappointment.

Does the Obama administration care about teachers at all?

[defendandprotect]

127. Does anyone question that the longer Obama/Duncan are at this, the WEAKER pub ed will be????

[ibegurpard]

148. i think that's the point

[donheld]

153. Pretty please with a cherry on top do NOT give it a rest

These threads of yours are vital to all of us. They may not be appreciated by some, but the rest of us want and need to see them.

[DailyGrind51]

161. Perhaps, when people see teachers with 2 masters degrees earning less than janitors, they will be

ashamed?

[madfloridian]

182. No, they will blame the teachers for it.

:shrug:

I do believe that.

This teacher scorn is now infused in our society.

[JackDragna]

188. It's already happening.

I'm one of them.