Reagan has won

[nadinbrzezinski]

Yes, indeed he has. IN some way things will have to get far worst for the programing of the last thirty years to give way. The programing is so deep that we see the repeat of right wing talking points here regularly. Sadly I doubt most people repeating these talking points even realize it. I know that the talking points are all over the place, not just Fox, or the WSJ... but they are so pervasive that I am afraid the old saying, the scariest words in the English Language are I am from the Government and I ma here to help you have taken hold.

The other talking point that has taken hold is UNIONS are bad... workers are overpaid and they need to accept cuts if they are to save any kinds of jobs. Soon this will be followed by regulation is bad.

Of course this worries me, but I guess this battle has been lost. It will not change until things are so bad that people finally wake up (don't expect that) or simply fall into levels of despair that will be something to behold.

So indeed this is over, in some ways. Still I am too much of a hard headed NOT to just back off and not do a thing. I know the battle lost, but I will keep fighting. Perhaps something will change for the better... but I will like to believe it.

Why am I saying this? The increasing number of people repeating RW memes... and actually believing them. So there... I said it... this ride will get much worst and people will not even know just how much part of the problem we all are... I include myself in this list. But hey, the last thing to die is hope itself, so there!

[Ozymanithrax]

1. When the nation went Conservative, it went conservative all the way...

So government is bad, when a Republican runs it, and exactly the same, or worse, when a Dmeocrat...

Unions are all evil and associated with the Mafia...

The liberal press...

Universities are hotbeds of liberal...socialism...

Only when government is run like a bussiness will we see efficiency...

Yes, even the Unreaganite masses have drank the coolaide...

The poor are poor because they want to be...

[nadinbrzezinski]

2. Progra... err propaganda works

[Ozymanithrax]

3. If you repeat a lie often enough...

Yes, propaganda works. Most humans are allergic to thinking and will accept propaganda that justifies their world view.

[donco]

4. this must be

the Thursday bummer thread eh?

[ShamelessHussy]

5. I think the M$M repeat this message to try and get us to believe it, but I think they are failing

especially with all the reality that has been crashing down amongst us this past decade, and the popularity of the WWW.

I think their days are numbered, they just don't know it yet.

(on edit: typo)

[nadinbrzezinski]

7. I am not so sure

I've read plenty of folks here post these RW memes... today perhaps it was way too many of them, (and it could be the nature of the threads)... but you also hear them in the real world.

I hope that you are right though... I really do.

[ShamelessHussy]

10. i think the polls reveal that americans are progressive

at least judging by what they are in favor of supporting, not to mention we elected a 'socialist', 'black' man to the WH for the first time.

sure, they have a vocal MINORITY of shameless angry folks out there who have been duped by the CONSTANT propaganda, but I still believe we have the numbers on our side.

our biggest problem i believe is that corporations have captured practically all of our institutions (Media, Gov., Courts, etc) so it is hard to get a counter point of view out there, or a way to demonstrate our large numbers. However, i do believe the www gives us a real opportunity to challenge their messaging, and to help empower folks, by letting them know that they are not alone out here.

once folks feel connected, there is nothing that can stop them, and that is why the elite will always work to fragment us, and make us feel isolated, and fringe.

but that dog won't hunt, for much longer, imho.

:hi:

[nadinbrzezinski]

12. I know what the polls say

and as I said it might have been this day... but hey... I just see it too in real life. No I don't live in fly over or a very red counter. This one is purple, and where I live is kindish blue. But the attacks are still there.

:hi:

At you back and I hope you are right.

[hfojvt]

6. rightwing memes?

You mean the other day when people were arguing that rich people spending millions on a single wedding actually benefits the working class?

Rightwing memes like that?

Unfortunately I got a survey from a teacher's union. One thing they were worried about is some teachers who do not pay social security tax not getting full social security benefits if they get second jobs. As if that is somehow unfair. They want a teacher who has a first job making about $40,000 a year (on which they pay no social security taxes (in some states)) and maybe has a second job where they make $10,000 a year and pay social security taxes. To get the same social security benefits as somebody who just has one job making $10,000 a year.

It looked to me like they were lobbying for an unfair advantage for their members.

It may seem crazy to you, but people who make less than $10 an hour are usually going to feel like people making over $25 an hour are over-paid and are not gonna be all that heartbroken if some of those people have to take wage cuts.

I think it is a good idea to keep fighting, but it would be sorta nice if we had something like a mission statement and a battle strategy so that we knew what we were fighting for and did not just break into factions fighting with each other.

[nadinbrzezinski]

8. Actually the first one you can blame on John Maynard Keynes

and his observation that to get out of a recession you need to spend money... so that actually is not a RW meme... unless John Maynard Keynes became one.

He also made another one which our government has not taken fully to heart. You need to do quite a bit of deficit spending in government spending programs.

Now if you can show to me that John Maynard Keynes is considered a Right Winger these days I'll eat my hat.

The unions are bad though, and cannot be trusted. Or my favorite... any person with an education or teachers in particular are dangerous. Those are RW memes.

[hfojvt]

16. well there is Keynes and then there is inverse Keynes

inverse Keynesianism is just my own name for supply side economics.

With Keynes you give money to working people by putting it in jars and having them dig it up, or putting them to work at a CCC.

With inverse Keynes you give money to rich people in the form of big tax cuts and then they spend that money on their lifestyles of the rich and famous and it trickles down to the plebes who get jobs as butlers on yachts and as stable hands shovelling manure at a polo grounds or something.

Here's why some working people might not like unions. Boeing machinists went on strike in late 2008 http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/boeingaerospace/2008212140_boeing29.html

"Average pay with overtime and bonuses, all totaling $68,000 in 2008, will rise to $80,000 in 2011, said Boeing spokesman Tim Healy."

Lots of working people make less than $68,000 a year, often a lot less. So again we are asked to believe that more money for people who are already much richer than us is gonna trickle down and somehow help us. Riiiight. Can I get some magic beans with that too?

Of course, it also seems that their union job really sucks and the pay is really not that good, only about $42,000 a year without all the accursed overtime.

"For the past 18 months I've been working 10-hour days, seven days a week, sometimes a month straight. My body is appreciating the downtime."

If I was gonna go on strike for something, it would not be for more pay. It would be for them to do more hiring, so I could get some fracking time off. That actually would help some other people, and also have the side effect of making the union bigger.

Seems to me though, that the lack of solidarity goes both ways. The low income clerk feels no more solidarity to the high paid union worker than the union worker feels solidarity towards the low paid clerk.

[nadinbrzezinski]

19. You are confusing two very different ways of looking at the world

in political economy supply siders and Keynseian are actually opposed to each other. They are as close to oil and water as you can get. Why supply siders hate Keynseians with a passion, and the feeling is mutual.

You are also using a little neo marxist thought there, and the ancient (to about the 1880s when it started) why is it that there is no class consciousness in the US? Oh the excuses across history have been amazing. It is the frontier... which serves as a safety valve (The Turner theory). These days I think it is high propaganda and truly places like this that serve the same role. You are here, not in your community trying to get community... and so am I by the way.

And of course you are also dealing with closed shop vs open shop policies. Which are so popular to piss on by many folks. But given that UNION jobs tend to bring local job scales up... no that is not me saying it... but labor statistics going back 100 years.

Now I try not to mix my political economy, but that is just me.

And you also have a poor understanding of political economy. That's ok, most people do, nor do they have the time to actually start at the beginning in the modern world, with Adam Smith. Here is a clue, not popular here. We do not live in a capitalist economy. We haven't had one for twenty years at least. What we have is a new form of command economy. Don't matter if this command economy is being run by the state (USSR) or Coors et al, it is LESS able to react to crisis and changes.

Now once again, if you show me that John Maynard Keynes is... a righty I will eat my hat. I actually own a hat... the straw should be good for my digestion.

[mmonk]

9. If liberalism and progressivism is to survive,

liberals and progressives must assert themselves and do it now. It is time for liberals and progressives to separate themselves from our own party's DLC policies and have to be firm and distinctive. The time has come to hold our ground especially since our meagar safety net is coming under assault (social security and medicare) as well as public education. The media and the republicans will call any failure of the DLC's policies as a failure of progressivism and liberalism when it damn sure isn't our fault.

[nadinbrzezinski]

13. IF the GOP does lousy in November

I can see the split of one party into two, and the end of a second one.

[Ted_White]

11. To quote Eisenhower

In 1952 Ike wrote, "Should any political party attempt to abolish social security, unemployment insurance, and eliminate labor laws and farm programs, you would not hear of that party again in our political history. There is a tiny splinter group , of course, that believes that you can do these things. Among them are H.L. Hunt (you possibly know of his background), a few Texas oil millionaires, and an occasional politician or business man from other areas. Their numbers are negligible and they are stupid."

Sadly, this tiny and stupid splinter group has morphed into the modern day GOP.

[nadinbrzezinski]

14. Indeed and welcome to DU

:hi:

[Lagomorph]

15. It'll take a few years to swap out the old...

for the new. the question is, will they be any better?

People say they want change, but when it shows up, they run screaming into the night.

There are Americans still making buggy whips, ya know.

http://www.jedediahsbuggywhip.com/#

[Hannah Bell]

17. what do buggy whips have to do with anything? except to inject a neolib meme into the discussion.

[Lagomorph]

20. Some people are far more entrenched in their thinking...

way of life and/or religion to let something like better ideas have any sort of influence over them.

[upi402]

18. same

k/r