I get it now about Howard and the mosque.

[Jackpine Radical]

He's thinking like a doctor.

He's taking a harm-reduction approach, essentially saying to the Muslims, "Yes, of course you have the right to build there, and I would defend that right. Furthermore, I know your intentions are the best. But there is something else you should consider, namely, that you are in a nation of easily enraged emotional primitives with a mob mentality, and it is wise to tread carefully in such an environment."

I don't know if he's taking the best position or not, but I respect how he got there. And, more than anything else, I'm saddened to know that he's right in his assessment of the mob-rule mentality at large in this country. (I was going to say "once-great country," but then realized that a good many of us have always been this way.)

[derby378]

1. Fine, but why should we give a damn about that angry mob?

Either the Muslims have the right to build, or they don't. Let the mob fume; they'll get over it soon enough.

[WhiteTara]

29. tell that to the cabbie in NYC

he might disagree about allowing the fuming part.

[LostinVA]

65. The cabbie's attacker appears to be crazy

[uppityperson]

2. However, he is wrong. Rosa Parks should have moved. Women should not vote

The mob mentality is not new, unfortunately. Japanese internment camps. Uppity blacks being hung. Chinese immigrants being run out of town. Same with Irish. Same with (pick a group).

Us vs Them. It sucks but giving into the bigots doesn't help anyone.

[Born_A_Truman]

50. + 1

Well said!

[jobycom]

54. You win. All that needed to be said, you just said. Now we can get some sleep. nt

[madfloridian]

3. I understood his approach toward the mosque while not agreeing.

I did not like when he compared the left with the right wing. I had my say about it, too.

I think the way he has been so condemned by us will probably silence him even more.

I can't say that I blame him.

I think we just lost one who has spoken out more than others.

I am quite sure the party leaders are jumping for joy.

Recommended your post because others won't.

[Jackpine Radical]

12. It's a complicated and (as they say these days) nuanced

situation. My purpose was to explore his reasoning, not to sit in judgment on it.

The decision is up to the Muslim community. I just don't really know what is the wisest course for them to take.

[pinboy3niner]

22. Interesting angle, but pure speculation

Dean's realm is politics, and it's at least as likely--if not more likely--that politics influenced his arrival at that position. And even there, there doesn't seem to be any good line of reasoning that might lead him to inject himself into the debate and take that position.

I'm as much at a loss as you. His action just seems...inexplicable. We may have to wait for his memoir to get some clue as to what the hell he was thinking. :)

[BlueMTexpat]

41. +1! n/t

[SemiCharmedQuark]

66. Ah yes...it's all a plot by the party leaders to silence Dean

Good lord...

[dkf]

4. Acknowledging and trying to avoid that reality is interpreted as hatred and bigotry.

Nothing but complete support even when you fear what is coming is acceptable.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

64. Like a husband who punches his wife and then says "look what you made me do to you!"

Instead of taking a hard line against the actual problem, let's blame those uppity Muslims for making people irrationally angry

[uppityperson]

83. Supporting haters and bigots is hatred and bigotry.

Trying to avoid the reality that bigots are around is asinine. As is simply giving into them.

Acknowledging bigotry exists and trying to educate people out of it is worthwhile.

[lumberjack_jeff]

5. Obama's comments escalated the problem.

It was one of the more stupid self-destructive (and ultimately counterproductive) political moves I've seen.

Were it not for Obama's comments, neither Reid nor Dean would have felt obliged to chime in.

The center was approved by NYC and it's none of the feds business. It would have been built were it not for the self-imposed belief that he needs to comment on every headline.

[sandnsea]

44. And not commenting at an Islamic Dinner?

Would have been reported how exactly??

[Radical Activist]

46. I'm proud of the President using the bully pulpit to stand up to bigotry.

I hope he does it more often on other issues.

[pnorman]

53. If he get's "validation" in the upcoming mid-term elections,

I'm SURE that he will!

My gut feeling throughout all these "doubt Obana" rants (some dating back to the choice of Inauguration Convocation speakers), is that he'll show himself to be the same person we believed him to be in 2008.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

60. ROFLOL

Wow...

Everyone knows this isn't about the mosque, but about the elections. Everyone except you I guess. The whole point is to ask EVERY dem and try and embarrass them. As Reid is up for reelection, he was one of the primary targets and would have been asked about this no matter what.

[Jackpine Radical]

78. And the answer is...

"That's a local decision. I don't second-guess the Manhattan locals on their local matters, and expect them to extend the same courtesy to my state.

[Arkana]

71. Dean's not an elected official nor is he the head of the DNC.

Stop blaming this on the President when you have no cause to (other than blind hatred). Dean didn't need to comment if he didn't want to.

[seabeyond]

6. when i listened to him on olberman, i understood. i got what you did and

talk to them. dont talk to the extremist, but talk to the reasonable. show them what you are doing, explain who you are.... talk to them

not the rw. not the bigots. but dean is going off all the people that were fed the fear, bought into it, but not inherently bigots...

[ProSense]

7. His position was long understood:

appease the RW racists.

[seabeyond]

8. that is exactly the opposite of what he is saying. i dont agree with him. but that is not his

position and it is wrong to give him a falsehood.

again

i dont agree with him. i dont think the center can do what he is asking. i dont think it is workable.

but he is not saying appease the rw racist.... at all, ever

[ProSense]

9. No, it isn't

If Dean actually believed that a new debate was going to begin when the actual debate was being inflamed and led by RW racists, then he is completely naive.

[seabeyond]

20. maybe so. but you ant say he means something he has said opposite of

you dont get to declare that he says... when he exactly did not say

you an say he is naive
you can say you dont agree
you can even say it is stupid

but you cant say with honesty, he wants to appease rw racists.

[ProSense]

21. "but you cant say with honesty, he wants to appease rw racists."

I can because that is effectively what he's doing. That is the effect of his words.

He commented on a situation that pit the organizers against a group of hateful people. He basically told them: I know you have the right to be here, but move so as not to make waves.

[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ProSense]

27. No it isn't. You cannot claim that

any other interpretation of Dean's comment is accurate when the reality is that the debate was between the group and the RW.

Those are the facts. He chose expediency over civil rights.

[seabeyond]

30. i am seeing 70% oppose center from various places. 70% of nation rw?

now, how can you say it is between the center and rw. there is no way that you are suggesting that 70% of this nation is rw, are you?

[ProSense]

31. Funny,

polling isn't the basis for civil rights, and when polls show that people need leadership, education because they're halfway there, one doesn't come down on the side of the RW. It's never a good idea to side with the angry mob when they're trying to bully.

Even the OP acknowledged that the stance was to appease the mob: "Furthermore, I know your intentions are the best. But there is something else you should consider, namely, that you are in a nation of easily enraged emotional primitives with a mob mentality..."

[dsc]

34. funny how you defend this behavior when Obama does it

for the record Dean is dead wrong on this, but no more wrong than Obama and others are when they tell gays that they shouldn't ask for marriage due to the bigotted beliefs of their religions.

[ProSense]

35. BS

The President is not standing in the way of any state adopting gay marriage laws and supports the repeal of DOMA.

[dsc]

88. and Obama tells gays that we should accept civil unions so we don't upset his religious sensibility

It should be noted, that a mosque made to move 10 or 50 blocks from Ground Zero would still be a mosque. Civil unions aren't marrige. We deserve the same rights you have period. Again, Dean is dead wrong here but you, and many others, are more than happy to have Obama engage in the very same behavior toward gays that you rightly decry here.

[depakid]

10. More like harm reduction as pointed out in the OP

but that's one of those tricky "concepts" that require thinking as opposed to blindly following a leader, who's essentially said the same thing in questioning the "wisdom" of the siting.

[ProSense]

13. "harm reduction" =

bogus.

"Yes, of course you have the right to build there, and I would defend that right. Furthermore, I know your intentions are the best. But there is something else you should consider, namely, that you are in a nation of easily enraged emotional primitives with a mob mentality, and it is wise to tread carefully in such an environment."

Yeah, appease the mob (RW racists).

[Jackpine Radical]

16. What's in the balance here? On the one hand, all the good that might

come from the mosque.

On the other hand, there is potential for all kinds of deadly craziness on the part of the Beckerheads. Manhattan doesn't need any more explosions, firebombs, or scattered body parts. I think it was this possibility that Howard was seeing. Again, I think he was instinctively engaging in quasi-medical reasoning. A civil activist might come to an entirely different conclusion about what to do.

[ProSense]

18. Please

"Manhattan doesn't need any more explosions, firebombs, or scattered body parts."

Appease them or they will kill us?

Oh my.

[Name removed]

17. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[pansypoo53219]

11. well, i think most old building should be saved.

get rid of abything built after 1960. ick poo ack ack.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

14. His position isn't much different than many RWers.

He may couch it in more polite terms, but it doesn't change the end result.

[MrScorpio]

15. Every discipline forms its own way of thinking

Doctors, lawyers, soldiers...

It's just a way to see things though a particular point of view.

[Uzybone]

19. Rubbish

His position is appease the bigots while trying to save face. Simple

[Javaman]

67. +100 nt

[TheKentuckian]

23. Howard is wrong. I'm not going to justify it and to be honest I don't really trust him as a leader

anymore. Not because he is a bad guy or whatever but because his first instinct in a very basic issue was to seek to coddle a utterly nasty and irrational element.

I do not feel comfortable that his instinct was for the minority group to offer a concession in order to have the lizard brain posse to listen to their side and if they didn't relent to roll over.

He put the burden on these folks to magically allay the incoherent emotional response of people actively seeking to bully them out of their rights under the law and the principles that they are founded on.

Dr Dean is still someone I want to hear from and have a part to play but I have no desire whatsoever to see him as President. He can't be trusted in "the trenches" or to put himself in the shoes of the minority group.

[madfloridian]

33. Well, I don't trust the Democrats in the leadership.

I think at least he has tried.

But I bet he doesn't anymore, and I would not blame him.

[TheKentuckian]

42. I don't trust the leadership a bit and certainly trust Dean more but that doesn't mean alot

I think I have been as clear on my problem with his position as he has been in advancing it.

We aren't talking policy nuance here, Madflo. This is essential principle stuff that not many years ago that even a Republican mainstreamer would not cross.

I'm also quite compromised out at the moment and have little patience for the craven positions of today's politicians.

To advance a plan that the aggrieved minority put concessions forward for the chance to grovel to to a bullying mob is not kosher to me any more than the war on teachers is something to be swallowed for you.

There isn't even a case to be heard, this is pure reactionary nonsense. What is there to be "reasonable" about? What context do you put such behavior in? How does any minority trust Howard to stand up for them when the mob comes for them?

These are real questions to me. I don't think they are unreasonable but rather essential.

Regardless of the polls, every fiber of my being says this tact is wrong and that we will pay a price as a people for not living our values. 70% of Americans and a lot of our politicians have sent the message that we are all hat and no cattle on the values we espouse and now matters are worse.

I've dealt with bullies and being the minority no matter where I go my whole life too. I know of nothing but standing up to it that works.
Better to be pummeled than give in, give in and like sharks with blood in the water they come harder and harder.

[madfloridian]

43. So I guess we can not trust him either? Nor or party leadership?

[TheKentuckian]

68. Should we? Howard isn't a backstabber so he is more trustworthy than the snakes

but in between a rock and a hard place, will he protect the weak, the disenfranchised, the minorities or will he roll over for a mob?

I don't get why this concern seems to anger you? These are all politicians, politicians need to answer hard questions rather than be coddled, idealized, and put on a pedestal.

We'd be in far better shape if the cult of personality shit would take a backseat and we started seeing these people as stewards of our power and public servants.

I like Dean but like does not address my new found concern and to be honest neither are you.

Some people care about who pols are diddling, some care about credentials and Ivy league schools, some like pedigrees.

My questions are at least as valid. I think it is worthy of honest discussion and as a big Dean person, it would seem you'd want that too.

[NJmaverick]

58. Leadership is about protecting our civil liberties even when it's not popular to do so

the Muslim Community center was a telling test.

[madfloridian]

24. Maybe he was right about us.

We on the left are not allowing him the right to have his own opinion.

His statement about the left angered me, but from what I have seen since there is no tolerance for his views.

He presented them carefully, and quite frankly many agree with him. There is a danger in this much hatred.

[Uzybone]

25. if his views are wrong its ok to say so. No politician gets it right all the time.

Howard wont hate you if you disagree with him.

There should be no tolerance for intolerance. That goes for all kinds of bigotry.

[madfloridian]

32. No, that is not what I said. It is not what I meant.

This is a crucifixion going on now, and I don't think he deserves it from us.

I talked to DFA HQ, and I know he has heard from others.

This is overkill.

[geek tragedy]

63. And if Obama had said exactly what Dean had said

you'd be one of the crucifiers.

[dkf]

48. No tolerance for intolerance makes a person intolerant.

[uppityperson]

84. So I am a bigot for not tolerating bigots? Huh.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

87. So black people intolerant of the KKK are as intolerant as the KKK is of them?

[AuntPatsy]

28. glad you do, I love Dean and yet in this he is wrong period and should have known better

I am extremely dissapointed.

[pnorman]

36. That was the same reasoning used in 1964, by the "respectable" people in the South.

They were scolding those "northern hippies" who were then streaming south, oblivious to local customs". The less genteel ones may have been beneath contempt, but they were at least a lot more honest.

If you haven't yet read "Freedom Summer", do so!

[madfloridian]

39. You compare Dean to Southern bigots?

My goodness that's a real stretch.

[pnorman]

45. No, but it's the same type of reasoning, and I find it less than compelling.

At this point in the year, I feel that Obama's main objective is to ensure that the upcoming mid-term elections "VALIDATE" his Presidency. Only then would he have an effective Bully Pulpit. Accordingly, I was hoping that he'd avoid getting involved in this phoney issue. But he did NOT side-step it, and I'm now glad that he didn't!

[alcibiades_mystery]

37. Nice spin

:rofl:

[madfloridian]

38. Well, I guess that's curtains for Howard Dean at DU now.

He was one of our stronger voices, a moderate but sensible one.

He said the left was as unforgiving as the right....it appears we are.

[NJmaverick]

57. by "our" you were referring to the non-Muslims?

[yowzayowzayowza]

40. 'Running interference'

Dean's a team player.

[stranger81]

47. The same "harm reduction approach" that tells women not to wear short skirts because

they'll be less likely to be raped.

[depakid]

49. If you want to reduce the matter to the absurd- one can also say Stormfront shouldn't move to Harlem

and open up an office.

[shintao]

51. He has a right to say it

He has a right to say it, and they have a right to ignore him. I am disappointed that the union rejected working for them. They of all people who will fly the American flag above their construction sites. Apparently it only flys for a chosen few. You need not apply..............

[madfloridian]

52. We need a bigger bus here.

There's not enough room for everyone under there.

[NJmaverick]

55. True, there are a billion Muslims

[geek tragedy]

62. Howard Dean just tossed 1 Billion Muslims under it. nt

[VMI Dem]

56. He essentially said the same damn thing as the President. Just more direct.

And less chessy.

[NJmaverick]

59. That would be incorrect

[Arkana]

70. Wrong. Obama said they had the right to build there.

That's all he said.

Nice try, though.

[madfloridian]

72. That is what Dean said.

[VMI Dem]

73. No. He also said he would not comment on the wisdom of doing so.

Which is, of course, a comment on the wisdom of doing so.

[Arkana]

74. No it isn't. Now you're just inventing reasons to bash the guy.

Just admit Dean is wrong and move on.

[VMI Dem]

75. Dean said the same thing as the President.

I won't comment on the wisdom of you not seeing that.

[Arkana]

77. And I won't comment on your obvious and disgusting hypocrisy.

Obama said they have a constitutional right to build there. THAT'S IT. He did not communicate his own personal opinion and it's really funny that you think you know what he thinks.

Dean came out and said they shouldn't build there because they might offend racists and bigots. Dean was wrong, Obama was not. End of story.

[VMI Dem]

79. Ah...you did the same thing as the President. Thank you for not commenting.

:rofl:

[Arkana]

80. It's hilarious that you criticize supporters of the President for "blindly

defending" our "sacred cow" when you are doing exactly this with Howard Dean.

Am I to believe, then, that you agree with Dean?

[VMI Dem]

82. I won't comment on the wisdom of building it. Isn't that good enough?

Doesn't that tell you what you need to know?

[Arkana]

85. No, it doesn't--but it doesn't make you for or against building it either.

You seem to be invested in presenting Obama as a bigot and Dean as a hero.

[geek tragedy]

61. No, he's appeasing the anti-Muslim bigots.

People aren't opposing it because lower Manhattan is 'hallowed ground.'

They're opposing it because they don't like and don't trust Muslims.

[Arkana]

69. No, there is no excuse for Dean's position. Nice try.

If we take Dean's position we tell the terrorists: "Congratulations, you've terrorized us enough that we are willing to restrict religious freedom and free speech because some idiots hate Muslims."

There is NO EXCUSE to stop the Cordoba Initiative building the cultural center where they want to build it. None whatsoever. Stop pretending Dean has a point. He doesn't. He's wrong.

[MilesColtrane]

76. However he arrived at his decision, it is wrong.

You could just as easily manufacture a reason his background would influence the opposite decision. (support for the mosque)

Like this: a doctor must not withhold his honest diagnosis because he believes that it will cause his patient emotional distress. What is best to heal the patient is more important than hurt feelings.
Therefore if the animosity between New Yorkers and Muslims is to be healed you must not simply treat the symptoms by moving the mosque. You treat the disease by integrating peaceful, moderate Muslims into the rest of the community.

[EFerrari]

81. Yep. I don't think he's right but agree that's how he got there.

It's an ethical question, too. Is the greatest good to find solution that upsets the fewest people or is it to uphold the higher principle and be ready to walk the community through the fallout.

[bvar22]

86. No. Dr Dean is simply being a "good" Democrat.

That is what he has always done.

At times, he will say things like, "Without a Public Option there is no reform", but when the orders come down from the Democratic Party Leadership, Dean shuts up, sits down, and repeats the Party Mantra assigned to him.

Dean IS, and has always been, a good Democratic Party foot soldier.
The Democratic Party has payed his bills for a long time,
but he isn't going to bite the hand that feeds him.

[MineralMan]

91. Did you expect something different? He is a Democrat.

He was once the head of the party. He is a politician. That's how our system operates.

[MineralMan]

89. I find it amusing that some of those who claim to operate

on principles rather than personalities can defend Dean, who is throwing the principles of the 1st Amendment out the window in favor of pragmatism. It deserves thought. President Obama has based his comments directly on the Constitution of The United States in defending the rights of a religious minority. Dean, the darling of some here, has tossed the Constitution out the window.

I respect no person in a leadership position who treats the Constitution with such casual speech.

[HughMoran]

90. Hear! Hear!

I find the hypocrisy amusing.


Not.