Guys, Help Me Slam Dunk This Article

[ChoppinBroccoli]

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3827/is_20100802/ai_n54831848/?tag=content%3Bcol1

A right-wing friend with whom I've been having an ongoing argument about the economy just sent me this link. He's been trying desperately for almost a month to try to prove to me that "tax and spend" policies like the ones he claims the Democrats are currently using don't work, have never worked, and never will work, and that the only way to grow the economy is to cut taxes and cut spending (yes, I've already hit him with the fact that that exact strategy has been failing for DECADES, but he's so married to the propaganda, it won't sink in). I've been fairly successfully slamming him on all his points, but he just won't give up.

Today he hit me with this link about Mitch Daniels. Like pretty much every link he sends me, I'm sure this is from some right-wing hate-site (although I've never heard of this one), but I haven't been able to find an article specifically debunking its claims. I know that Indiana is really struggling with unemployment (unlike the rosy picture this article paints), and I'm pretty sure all the breathless adoration for this guy is just propaganda, but I'd like some help finding resources to prove it. Can you help me out?

For example, I can see from the article itself that even though they're touting him as a "tax cutter," he actually raised several taxes, and that even though Indiana's unemployment rate is higher than the national average and going up, many sources say Indiana has actually added jobs (and the higher unemployment is the result of more people re-entering the workforce and trying to get those jobs), but I just don't know what to believe right now.

[izquierdista]

1. Four questions to ask him

1) Which party was in power during the 1929 market crash?
2) Which party was in power during the 1987 market crash?
3) Which party was in power during the 2008 market crash?
4) How does it feel when you stop beating your head against a wall?

[ChoppinBroccoli]

3. Believe Me, I've Already Made Those Points

He's stopped trying to use history to make his point, because I've thoroughly embarrassed him on that line of attack (even though his original statement was that "raising taxes and increasing spending has never in history strengthened the economy.") Now, as you can see, his tack is to try to find examples of times and places where tax-cutting has worked (and as a secondary tactic, he keeps trying to insist that Obama's policies have actually made the economy worse--a point he keeps getting slapped down on continually, but he just keeps on sending me link after link after link--he's getting REALLY desperate now, because he's sending me opinion/editorial pieces from newspapers and YouTube videos made by random people with webcams).

By the way, the last two "the economy REALLY IS getting worse........REALLY!" articles were 1) an article about how SOME economists (as in, less than 20% of them) think the economy is headed for a "big fall" (but buried in the article, which I suspect he didn't bother to read, it says that ALL of them agree that the economy will continue to grow, just more slowly than they originally thought--OH! THE HORROR OF A GROWING ECONOMY!!!), and 2) an article about how the guy who advised Obama on the Stimulus (I think his name is Zandi) is now predicting that there's a 33% chance we'll have a double-dip recession. Like I said, this guy is getting REALLY desperate.

[Scuba]

7. +1

[LiberalFighter]

2. Indiana

Has the 2nd highest sales tax. (7%) Tied with MS, NJ, RI, and TN. That doesn't include any special taxes that counties may include on ready to eat food or other taxable items. They created a special tax for Marion county and neighboring counties to help pay for the Indy Colts.

CA, CO, GA, IL, IN, MI, and NY have a state gas tax.

Indiana was the 3rd state to have an insolvent Unemployment Insurance Trust Fund.

They raised the state sales tax from 6 to 7% and at the same time sliced out school related costs from local property taxes. Yet, because of the economy the lower revenue resulted in several hundred million dollars reduction of assistance to schools from the state. Schools have had to make drastic cuts and making it difficult for them to make good decisions.

Added jobs? More like jobs that fail to show up but are still counted as jobs. They keep the numbers secret.

There are some details here Mitch Daniels and Reality

[ChoppinBroccoli]

4. Thanks For That Link!

I'm going to nail him with it.

[dkf]

5. Republicans cut taxes and increase spending especially to their cronies.

[ChoppinBroccoli]

6. I Think I've Effectively Ended The Conversation

I really don't see how he can come back from this (although I've had right-wingers do it before--not with anything competent or even remotely intelligent-sounding, but they did reply with something pathetic that completely BSed around the point that they thought shot me down). In my mind, I don't think there's even a reply for this. Here's what I wrote (and yes, I've used this argument before--can you tell? :-) )


See, here are the two things that "tax cuts are the answer" Republicans can never get through their heads:

1) If tax cuts worked, they would have worked by now. We've had the Bush Tax Cuts in place for 10 years. Where are the jobs? Where's the recovery? All Bush's Tax Cuts ever did (and continue to do) was/is drive the economy into a ditch. And no talking around in circles can change 10 years of evidence. Look around you. This economy is the DIRECT RESULT of tax cuts.

2) "Tax cuts are always the answer" folks seem to think that State and Federal economies are somehow different from their own economies in their own homes. They're not. Governments have income (taxes) and outgo (spending). Families have income (money earned from whatever source) and outgo (bills, necessities, etc.) When governments cut taxes, they cut their income. Now bring it down to street level. If you treated your family's economy the way you would have the government treat its economy, your solution to tough economic times would be for you to quit your job. Clearly, that's about the WORST thing you can do, isn't it? If anything, your first plan of action will be INCREASE your income (get a job that pays more, for example) in most cases, wouldn't it? That doesn't make sense for you (and would lead to your financial ruin), so why do you advocate it for a government (unless what you WANT is financial ruin)?

Now, let's examine the other side of that coin. Another tack you can take is to reduce your spending. Clearly, another good alternative. However, in some cases, if you increase your spending on the right things, you can actually spend money and improve your financial position (your family economy). And believe it or not, you ALREADY believe this to be true, whether you know it or not. Think about it. When you graduated from high school, what did you do? If you're anything like me (and you may not be, but most people are), you incurred a HUGE deficit in the form of student loans. Now, WHY would anyone EVER do that? Everyone knows you can't spend your way to a stronger economy. But you did it because you know spending some money now would lead to a better paying job (higher income and a stronger economy) later. So you did it.

Congratulations! You're a "tax and spender!" And if you still insist you're not, then just show me evidence of yourself or anyone you know getting themselves out of a financial hole by quitting their job or otherwise reducing their income.

[HughBeaumont]

8. Pure stats and facts on the 2000-2008 "Growth":

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/HughBeaumont/120

Several links you can go to for Bewsh's astounding record on jobs and growth.