The "Civility" section of DU's Rules. Read it, if you haven't...and if you have, read it again.

[Amerigo Vespucci]

http://www.democraticunderground.com/forums/rules_detailed.html

Civility

Personal Attacks, Civility and Respect

The administrators of Democratic Underground are working to provide a place where progressives can share ideas and debate in an atmosphere of mutual respect. Despite our best efforts, some of our members often stray from this ideal and cheapen the quality of discourse for everyone else. Unfortunately, it is simply impossible to write a comprehensive set of rules forbidding every type of antisocial behavior. The fact that the rules do not forbid a certain type of post does not automatically make an uncivil post appropriate, nor does it imply that the administrators approve of disrespectful behavior. Every member of this community has a responsibility to participate in a respectful manner, and to help foster an atmosphere of thoughtful discussion. In this regard, we strongly advise that our members exercise a little common decency, rather than trying to parse the message board rules to figure out what type of antisocial behavior is not forbidden.

Do not post personal attacks or engage in name-calling against other individual members of this discussion board. Even very mild personal attacks are forbidden.

Do not hurl insults at other individual members of this message board. Do not tell someone, "shut up," "screw you," "fuck off," "in your face," or some other insult.

Do not call another member of this message board a liar, and do not call another member's post a lie. You are, of course, permitted to point out when a post is untrue or factually incorrect.

Do not publicly accuse another member of this message board of being a disruptor, conservative, Republican, FReeper, or troll, or do not otherwise imply they are not welcome on Democratic Underground. If you think someone is a disruptor, click the "Alert" link below their post to let the moderators know.

Do not draw negative attention to the fact that someone is new, has a low post count, or recently became a member of Democratic Underground. Do not insinuate that because someone is new, they are a troll or disruptor.

Do not accuse entire groups of people on Democratic Underground of being conservative disruptors, or post messages which spread this type of suspicion. Do not post topics that arouse suspicion against new members, or members with low post counts.

Do not say that you are hitting the alert link to report another member. You are permitted to tell someone that you are adding them to your ignore list, provided that you actually do so.

Do not "stalk" another member from one discussion thread to another. Do not follow someone into another thread to try to continue a disagreement you had elsewhere. Do not talk negatively about an individual in a thread where they are not participating. Do not post messages with the purpose of "calling out" another member or picking a fight with another member. Do not use your signature line to draw negative attention to another member of the board.

You are permitted to post polite behavioral corrections to other members of the message board, in direct response to specific instances of incivility, provided that your comments are narrowly focused on the behavior. But you are not permitted to make broad statements about another person's behavior in general, and you are not permitted to post repeated reminders about another person's mistakes.

You are permitted to criticize public figures, who are not protected under our rules against personal attacks. However, if a public figure is a member of our community, that person is protected by our rules and you are not permitted to personally attack that person. (You are permitted to offer constructive criticism of their activities as a public figure.)

If you do not like someone, please be aware that you have the option of putting that person on your ignore list. Just click the ignore icon on one of their posts.

There are no exceptions to these civility rules.

You cannot attack someone because they attacked you first, or because that person "deserved it," or because you think someone is a disruptor. We consider it a personal attack to call a liar a liar, to call a moron a moron, or to call a jerk a jerk.

[jobycom]

1. Who are you calling out?

I've been good, it wasn't me.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

16. Even very mild personal attacks are forbidden.

Yeah well that Hysterydiagnosis is just a plain idiot. Now what are we gonna do?

[CaliforniaPeggy]

2. Thank you, my dear Amerigo Vespucci!

It is always a good idea to review the basic tenets of DU.

Always...

Recommended. For the truth...

[Amerigo Vespucci]

3. I love the fact that someone has already unrecommended it...

...it speaks volumes about the necessity of posting it in the first place.

[Turborama]

17. Just rec'd it to 15

Thanks for the reminder. I'm not sure how timely it was because I haven't seen any infractions lately of this particular rule but as long as the Mods don't consider it a "call out", it's always good to get occasional reminders like this.

Skinner's reminder was really good, too: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7623624

[emilyg]

36. Rec. #35

[aikoaiko]

34. There are many people on DU who think personal attacks are a legitimate form of discourse

And they hate this rule.

And I admit that I've been guilty of violating it and deserved to have posts deleted.

[Amerigo Vespucci]

37. And there have been times where I've taken the bait and responded in a similar fashion

I hear you.

Attacking someone isn't discourse, it's just an attack, and I feel that there are people who specifically come here to enjoy attacking others.

I posted the rules so everyone would know what the owners of this Website have to say on the matter.

Copy and paste...with added emphasis from me, but copy and paste. That's the way things are supposed to function on DU. During the fund drive Skinner posted on "The DU we deserve."

The DU we deserve is the one that abides by the rules Skinner wrote himself. That's a pretty reasonable request in my book. And I know the mods do their best. Maybe we can all help them do more.

[mistertrickster]

73. Agreed. When there're so many CONs out there worthy of being attacked,

why come here and nit-pick political fellow travellers?

I could never get that.

Those who feel the need to argue and "win" should post on their local newspaper blog with the idiot CONs who try to dominate the discussions there.

[hfojvt]

118. but DU has never been that way

not in my experience. I joined on November 15, 2004. Ten days later, a long time member posted this to me.

Why use english when you can use German like a good little Nazi? (expletive deleted (actually name redacted, but expletive deleted is more fun)) 11-25-04

a short while later, I got into a discussion about poverty, which included this exchange

Shut the fuck up. You have no clue about living in poverty. I'm done. (expletive deleted) 12-29-04

Really, you people are just full of it. ibid

I still say you're full of shit and not telling the entire truth about your economic situation. ibid

and here's another exchange with somebody else

more willful ignorance on your part? that is what i do find pitiful the groundless fears and willful ignorance. keep to your bikes and your books, it's obvious you can'rt handle more than that. (expletive deleted) jul-01-05

i am not the one bandying around the words contempt, etc, but your arguements were weak and uninformed from the get go. try not to take it personally (ibid) jul-01-05


That exchange illustrates another fun experience. People will insult you and then deny it an call you over-sensitive when you call them on it.

Of course, calling them on it is probably also against the rules.


My point here is not to complain about DU, but just to make the point that a) DU has never been ideally civil and b) the alternative of massive deletions and quicker tombstones would probably also not be acceptable.

It might also be interesting if I had kept a collection of the most insulting (or offensive) things I had written on DU. As I posted in reply to the first post "keiner ist ohne fehler" (nobody's pefect, or literally, nobody is without mistakes)

[JNelson6563]

127. Actually you came when the damage had been done

Things first got really nasty here during the 04 primaries. Prior to that the tone was more rational. Things were not kept in check during those primaries (though there was an effort, it just wasn't very effective). Things have never really been the same since then but they have gotten progressively worse. Sadly the admins have chosen to dissemble on this issue so I foresee no signs of improvement any time soon.

Julie

[ThomasQED]

166. I'm curious...

what prompted the "bikes and books" comment? It sounds like you were being berated for being smart, environmental and fit!

[CTyankee]

172. I, too, came to DU in the fall of 2004...it was a different place than it is today.

For one thing, Kerry's loss was just so devastating we all had to hang together for mutual support. I survived because of DU and Stephanie MIller, whose show had me laughing hysterically on my treadmill every morning...

I think it's harder today. Funny, isn't it? Perhaps because some DUers can't attack the real enemy and so they make boogey men out of other DU posters. I see it analagous to Shirley Jackson's "The Lottery." An innocent remark gets construed as monstrous and alluva sudden you are the "enemy of the people."

Despite all of this, I refuse to employ the Ignore function. I've lived too long and seen too much to be intimidated by a few sad souls who seemingly cannot manage the misery in their lives.

Let it go in peace...

[MrScorpio]

4. Civility works

No doubt about it

[Vinnie From Indy]

5. Good Post!

Thanks! K&R

[SeattleGirl]

6. Well said, AV!

Thank you.

[dipsydoodle]

7. From memory

I'm on your ignore list so you can't read this. If I'm wrong then I apologise.

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SeattleGirl]

9. Ha! Good one, Nance!

:fistbump:

[NanceGreggs]

10. Right back at ya ...

:fistbump:

[SeattleGirl]

11. .....

:loveya:

[HughMoran]

80. Musta been good

:hi:

[Number23]

75. What did it say?? I missed it!

:mad:

K&R this OP!

[pinboy3niner]

12. Don't tase me, Bro!

I'll go quietly, LOL!

No, I'm not an offender. I'm usually very tame, counting to 10, or 20, or whatever it takes before replying (though I did go off once on someone who REALLY crossed the line--my bad!).

I rec'ed the OP because it's a good reminder for all of us. Incivility distracts--and detracts--from the discussion. And we're all fellow members here, aren't we?

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Amerigo Vespucci]

14. They can be copied and pasted any time the situation calls for it.

:patriot:

[Violet_Crumble]

22. Totally agreed. They do need to be enforced without exception. n/t

[Norrin Radd]

15. Your mother was a hamster

and your father smelt of elderberries.

[Swamp Rat]

19. we are an autonomous collective

we are DEVO

D.E.V.O.

[Vickers]

55. OFF-TOPIC: Devo just released their first album in 20 years.

And it's actually pretty good!!!

Something For Everybody

And now back to your regularly-scheduled thread...

[Norrin Radd]

68. Synchronicity. Had just bought the latest Keyboard mag with Devo on

the cover before I saw your posts.

[Fumesucker]

26. SHUT YOUR FESTERING GOB, YOU TIT!

YOUR TYPE MAKES ME PUKE! YOU VACUOUS TOFFEE-NOSED MALODOROUS PERVERT!


But I mean that in a *nice* way. :)

:hi:

:toast:

[Anakin Skywalker]

18. Aww. Do We Have To?

I don't want to play nice with any teabaggers I come across here..... :)

[BootinUp]

20. Recommended. nt

[KharmaTrain]

21. Always Been The Rule Here...

But then I am not a popular kid around the water cooler here...and glad I'm not. Seems some (and no I'm not calling out any...it's apparent when you read as many threads a day as I do...far more than I bother to comment on) get their dander up easily around here or get so wrapped up in trying to prove a point that personal attacks are a natural occurance. As one whose been on message boards (and ran a few) for over 15 years I see this as a byproduct of the popularity of the site and the compassion of its members. Words will fly off a keyboard faster than if they were uttered in person...and the ability to hide behind a screen name only invites such behavior. But so be it...comes with part of the territory. If one's offended I always suggest a DU vacation...take a walk, step away for a bit. Many times you realize how silly a lot of the fighting on here is and how it does little to affect anything but hurt feelings and egos.

[corkhead]

23. Thank you AV. There are some who have been here a very long time that would benefit from rereading

:toast:

[RC]

24. Yeah, and...

Who appointed you as a Site Cop? If you don't like something someone said, either ignore them or hit the Alert button.
Or do what I am doing, stating my opinion to the OP.

[Amerigo Vespucci]

27. Yeah, and...

...your opinion is duly noted. I posted the rules and you asked who appointed me Site Cop.

The answer is no one, and I don't consider myself to be that.

Here's another thing from the rules...me telling you that you're now on my ignore list. Goodbye.

[MrScorpio]

32. Well of course, no one appointed the OP "Site Cop"

The rules are for all of us, big and small.

I, for one, appreciate this particular post, because I think that all of us can definitely benefit from a reminder of the rules which helps DU be the kind of place that we enjoy coming back to again and again.

And of course, your opinion is valued as well, and I see your willingness to freely give it as just the kind of demonstration of how effective the rules actually are.

Although the OP probably wouldn't do it, I do, however, appreciate the fact that you took the time to express your valued opinion.

That's the kind of thing that makes DU my favorite place on the internet.

[KG]

25. i fahrt i your general direction!

[Bluenorthwest]

28. There seem to be many exceptions to that rule, actually.

Some entire styles here seem to hang on a thread of insult and snark.

[Amerigo Vespucci]

29. True, and the best solution for that is usually the ignore list.

Discussions can happen on all kinds of levels, but someone on a mission to see how many buttons they can push isn't someone interested in a discussion.

And the insult and snark threads are boring because in the overwhelming majority of cases, the people who pull that crap aren't half as clever or amusing as they think they are.

[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[seabeyond]

31. wait... you just did a broad brush post on people that whine, lol. really

i dont know what is up... and reading rules on civility is always cool. i was surprised with your post though

[Amerigo Vespucci]

33. That broad brush post was about whining wrapped around personal attacks

And this one is simply a post of the rules regarding personal attacks.

It probably makes more sense to me because I can't "call out" the people or specifics of the post that inspired my "broad brush" post.

If I could, everything would be crystal clear. If I did, I'd be breaking the rules I just posted.

[seabeyond]

35. probably makes more sense to me ..... i hear ya

i know. and man, the curiosity, lol, but i get it.

[varelse]

38. K&R

[caraher]

39. I neither know nor care whether the OP was a "callout"

It's good to see these again - there's a lot to remember.

I've lost count of the number of times I've seen low post count used to trash someone (though I'll also admit plenty of those people got legitimately tombstoned in short order).

Would calling someone a "shill" for an industry be out of order as a personal attacks? (Haven't done it myself, but I've seen it plenty...)

[Amerigo Vespucci]

40. It wasn't a callout. I can tell you exactly what it was (and is).

It was the culmination of ongoing attacks that dance around the edges of the rules, attacks which are clearly personal in nature and clearly directed at individuals on DU...even though part of the "dance" is to make sure that DU knows exactly who is being discussed, even though they are not referred to by name. That, and the whole "SO ARE YOU TRYING TO SAY" confrontational tone in GD, usually written in threads where the OP clearly has NOT said that.

In short, I got sick of the pissing contests.

Not just in my threads, but in the threads of other DUers I have come to know, like, and admire.

The admins / mods make it clear time and time and time again that they don;t want open warfare going on.

So when someone insults you, confronts you, what do you do? Well, if you want to participate in this Website, you go to the rules.

I am not calling our specific individuals. The problem has become too widespread anyway. I am addressing a pattern of behavior which, on paper, is not allowed on this Website. My intention in posting the rules is to share them with people who may not be aware of them, and to encourage people who come under attack to know when to hit the "alert" button.

[chervilant]

43. Rules?

I find it increasingly difficult to remain hopeful about our species, particularly when "Democratic" websites have to post rules to 'enforce civility.'

We humans can--and do--point fingers all day long, and justify our anger or resentment based on political beliefs, religious beliefs, cultural heritage, and all manner of other things. Our efforts to justify--OR to codify 'rules' to prevent such behavior--will not change the fact that far too many of us are willing to hate, willing to judge, willing to spew negativity and resentment out into the universe, particularly when we can remain anonymous on the internet.

As a 54 YO woman, I am especially sensitive to the sexism and ageism I encounter here on DU and on other left-leaning blogs. For me, the question is not "why don't we have rules to prevent this behavior," the question is "why do we humans feel compelled to be so disrespectful to one another"?

Last year, I undertook a bit of research to determine the motivations behind vulgar personal attacks. I found that most bloggers who use extreme vile language (c**t, motherf***er, etc.) most often do so without provocation. Posting rebuttals or similar personal attacks only served to escalate a posting 'war' and often resulted in lengthy vulgar diatribes about me, my parents, and my sexuality. Efforts to encourage respectful, fruitful discourse were met with derision and further vulgar personal attacks. On only one occasion in better than six months did the person with whom I attempted a dialogue apologize for their vulgarity and engage in a discussion of the issue at hand.

After my research ground to a halt (vulgarity and personal attacks online have increased in frequency and intensity), I began using 'ignore' options, and I stopped visiting DU and other left-leaning blogs (unless I was looking for information about a current event--such as Beck's Big Day).

I am glad you posted these 'rules,' even though I am skeptical that such an effort will change much.

[Amerigo Vespucci]

46. I hear you...

...and yeah, there shouldn't have to be "rules." But in order for DU to be a positive experience for everyone involved, those rules are in place, because certain members have clearly demonstrated their need to go after other members.

Regarding your comment:

As a 54 YO woman, I am especially sensitive to the sexism and ageism I encounter here on DU and on other left-leaning blogs. For me, the question is not "why don't we have rules to prevent this behavior," the question is "why do we humans feel compelled to be so disrespectful to one another"?

I know exactly what you're saying, because I am a Christian, and there have been some gleefully bigoted anti-Christian comments posted here. I ask myself "why do we humans feel compelled to be so disrespectful to one another"...I could possibly understand if I stood on a soapbox and tried to preach, but as I have said time and time and time again, I am an Italian heterosexual Christian male who does not judge others on the basis of their ethnicity, sexuality, religion, or gender. I don't seek "people like me." I neither want nor expect others to "be like me." But when someone insults me for who I am, it's a declaration of war. On the internet, the declaration usually comes from someone with pathetically low self-esteem, someone who will probably die alone and curse the world as they leave it. And there are rules on DU for dealing with those people.

You posted "I am skeptical that such an effort will change much."

The moderators repeatedly say "let us do our job."

This thread is an open declaration that I am sick of the lack of civility on DU and I fully intend for them to do their job, with my assistance, in support of the rules, and anyone who feels the same way can participate.

[Axle_techie]

109. I have been greatly disturbed by

some of the negative generalizations posted about Christians on DU. I am glad someone else sees it as well.

[Common Sense Party]

111. That won't change anytime soon.

Bashing the Christian religion is the one form of incivility that will always be encouraged and carried out with gusto at DU.

[Axle_techie]

112. It seems so

I was just going through a thread on the religion board and while the OP is no saint, they are being mercilessly ripped apart for their belief in design...

[Common Sense Party]

113. The Religion Forum should be re-named the Anti-Religion Forum

or "Only Atheists Are Smart"

[Axle_techie]

115. Ha, so true.

Why they feel the need to post in the religion section is beyond me. It is almost as if Atheism is their religion and they feel the rabid need to convert people.

[Turborama]

117. I've been disturbed by some of the anti-Muslim comments I've seen

here, too. Yes, here. It's been happening and it's just as bad as being anti-Semitic or anti-Christian. I'm not a religious person per se but I am strongly opposed to bigotry and it is a form of bigotry that should alerted on, no matter which religion it is.

If there are particular instances of people misusing a religion or interpreting it in an inappropriate way for their own political agenda, that's a different matter entirely.

[kimi]

120. Ya know

I'm glad you bring this up.

I'm also Christian, and it does bother me at times that people seem to bash Christianity so vehemently. I don't mind that people have personal views - have at it, by all means - but I don't encroach on others' views. I have very personal and private reasons for my faith, and I do not in any way preach or push my views on others - that's just tacky. So, yeah, I see your point here.

I may be flamed for saying this, and I don't have a terribly high post count, but eh, that's my opinion.

[Amerigo Vespucci]

149. There are so many other things that are "off limits"...

1). Race

2). Gender

3). Sexual preference

But religion seems to be fair game. I don't get it. Bigotry is bigotry. But the rules are he who owns the marbles makes the rules, and as Skinner clearly states in the rules, "if you don't like it you can leave."

So yes, it bothers me when the mods let a Christ-bashing thread stand, but my way of dealing with it is to put the original poster on ignore. There are a limited number of DUers in that area, and I do believe I have shit-canned the majority of them.

[MrScorpio]

151. The rules serve and important purpose

Which is to keep DU from devolving to the morass of incivility that you've had to endure on other sites.

The rules allow you the benefit of expressing yourself freely without having to face those types of vile attacks. We have a great system of alert and a dedicated cadre of mods who enforce those rules. Sure, some attacks are made, but they're dealt with for the most part. Even in this very thread.

These are the great things that set DU aside from so much of the web.

I, for one, really appreciate it.

[CTyankee]

173. One thing we have going for ourselves is our age!

I, too, am an older woman. I find strength in that. I am having a full, long life just like my mother. I have no chronic illness and a lovely family. Those two things alone give me huge strength.

DU is really just a website, after all. I use it for information and for discovery. There are some great people here who have a lot to offer, IMO. Take the good, leave the bad alone. I like to say that I'm too damn old to care what some people having a bad day in their lives think of me! That's why I don't use Ignore. I just, well, ignore them!

[LaurenG]

41. Having a tough day?

:shrug:

[SeattleGirl]

42. What an odd question.

AV was simply pointing out some of the rules for posting on DU. How is that "having a tough day"?

[LaurenG]

57. Well I thought it was a rather intuitive question

I've never seen him post the rules before,I figured something must have happened.

[POAS]

61. Something happens to me everyday,

I wake up and can get out of bed, after that it's all good.

Having something happen does not mean someone is having a bad day.

[LaurenG]

63. And

If you follow posters here you know their style. This isn't a normal post now is it.

[POAS]

78. Perhaps the poster

had an urge to post outside the box. That would hold true whether he had a purpose or not with the OP but still does not suggest that the poster is having a "tough day".

[LaurenG]

124. Why are you harrassing me?

Don't you have something better to do? The poster actually copied and pasted the rules because something happened, he wrote about it down thread. It was obvious to those of us who pay attention.

[POAS]

147. Having a bad day?

I wasn't aware that having a conversation constituted harassment and I, to the best of my knowledge, have never had a conversation with you in any other thread, ever, so your "poor me" emotional response rings hollow. You have been responding when you could have simply ignored me, so I see no reason for the accusation when all I did was question your assumption that the original poster was having a bad day.

Never fear however, this is the last post from me in this thread.

[LaurenG]

150. Lol

Have a great day POAS!

edited

[donco6]

44. Yeah! Let's hear more about rules!

Because, you know, this board isn't dead enough already.

[proud2BlibKansan]

45. +1

[Amerigo Vespucci]

49. Could you please clarify "+1?"

If you're saying there should be no rules regarding respecting others, I want to know that's what you're saying, and not make assumptions.

That's what the thread was about...treating others with respect.

Do you feel that's a good idea? Why?

Do you feel that's a bad idea? Why?

Thanks in advance for your response.

[proud2BlibKansan]

52. I agree with the post I replied to and instead of typing 'I agree' I typed '+1'

I also think this is a silly OP. It reminds me of tattle tales in school. I don't tolerate that in my classroom and have a hard time dealing with it from adults. If we all just took care of ourselves it would be such a nicer kindler gentler world.

If you really want to know.

[Amerigo Vespucci]

53. So my question is do we "take care of ourselves?"

I respect the fact that you think the OP is silly. It's a copy and paste of the DU rules, so if you think the rules are silly, that's your right. If you think it's silly for me to post them, that's your right too. If you think it's silly for some other reason, it's another example of your rights.

"It reminds me of tattle tales in school"...so did the thread in the Lounge last night that complained about me and several other DUers without mentioning us by name, even though it was clear to anyone reading it. It was just like tattle tales in school, and it thumbs its nose at the DU rules.

You can like them, you can hate them, you can go to the rules page and read the part where Skinner writes "You can like it, or you can leave."

It's not that I really wanted to know. It's the fact that "+1" really doesn't let anyone know where you stand. Now you've done that. Thank you, and thanks for sharing your opinion.

[LaurenG]

58. I knew something must have happened.

You don't usually post rules.

[Name removed]

59. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bobbolink]

79. "taking care of ourselves" in the presence of bullies often doesn't work, and the

gentler person ends up leaving.

Surely you have seen that at school.

[proud2BlibKansan]

84. Sometimes that is the smartest thing to do

Walking away takes a bully's power away.

[bobbolink]

88. No, it doesn't. Not only do bullies think they "won" in that situation, which encourages them to

continue, but it also means the one being bullied has to keep swallowing toxic swill, which is very unhealthy.

[proud2BlibKansan]

102. Again I disagree

Stirring the pot is not always the best strategy. Sometimes, but not always.

[bobbolink]

146. There seems to me to be a few more choices than swallowing whatever crap they hand out and

"stirring the pot".

At any rate, I agree with the OP on the rules, and can't understand the uproar over posting it.

I still think you would be better served to just click "Hide Thread".

I'm not changing my view on that, and you aren't either, so I see no profit in continuing this.

Have a good day, and I hope it is stress-free, and that you and I both are able to be around civil people who follow the rule as posted.

[Amerigo Vespucci]

48. I respect your analysis of DU as a "dead board"...that's your right.

And the rules I quoted should be common sense. But I want to respond to your "Yeah! Let's hear more about rules!" comment.

You clearly want to make DU a better place. What are your solutions? I know everyone reading your comments wants to hear them, and now that you've opened that door, share with us.

We're listening.

[donco6]

60. OK here's a suggestion.

If you have a problem with someone flouting the rules, perhaps you could deal with that person? Rather than reposting some segment of the already voluminous rulebook, complete with additional bolding, red-letter underlines and super-size font.

It's off-putting.

[MrScorpio]

66. It's been my observation...

That only those who have a problem with the rules are the only sones who object to them whenever the subject comes up.

[bobbolink]

81. I would say that's a pretty accurate observation.

[proud2BlibKansan]

83. I disagree

The rules are posted and anyone can review them anytime they want. There is no need to start threads to remind everyone of the rules.

I don't disagree with any of the rules. But I don't like threads about them.

[bobbolink]

85. Then you are free to ignore these threads, aren't you?

Or are you saying you don't want anyone else to read them?

[donco6]

87. They can read them, and I can comment on them.

That's how it all works.

[bobbolink]

92. Commenting is one thing. Demanding they not be posted is entirely different.

Which I am sure you understand.

There is a really nifty feature, called Hide Thread. I use it at times.

I highly recommend it.

Telling people not to post what you don't like is quite authoritarian, and not really in the definition of "liberal" or "progressive" or "Democratic".

So have fun arguing with that. I really no longer care. I agree with the poster, I amm sick to death of the toxic crap here, and glad that someone objects enough to talk about the rules.

:toast: to the OP!

[donco6]

97. See, you commented, I commented, everyone's happy.

:toast:

[bobbolink]

98. .

:eyes:

[proud2BlibKansan]

100. Yes I can choose to ignore them and usually I do

I also think anyone can post any thread they want. Or read any thread they want.

[Techn0Girl]

116. I respectfully disagree....

I've been on DU for a couple years now and obviously I haven't read the rules closely enough because a couple times I have told a particularly obnoxious poster that I am alerting his post. That's against the rules and frankly I didn't realize it until nor so for me , at least , this reposting of the DU rules was useful.

Frankly I think the rules against incivility could be even stringer but I think Skinner and the mods have a good start with what they have.

I also agree with the poster who said that, by and large, most people who have a problem with the rules have problems following them - meaning being simply civil to one another.

Thanks to the OP for posting them and frankly I wish we'd see them more often as a consciousness raising exercise.

[donco6]

89. When I break one, please do let me know immediately. n/t

[MrScorpio]

94. Of course...

The rules work when we each help each other stay within them

[Amerigo Vespucci]

69. Please explain why it's "off-putting."

Seriously, I don't understand, and I'd like to know. I'm sure anyone else reading this would like to know as well.

You mention the "the already voluminous rulebook"...is it voluminous out of necessity, or unnecessarily so?

And this post isn't about me...it's about anyone who finds themselves on the receiving end of the behavior I've described here. You can see daily posts from people who ventured into GD and were met with sarcasm, accusations, personal attacks...so what is your recommendation for dealing with those people? It seems that you have an answer to the problem that lies beyond what people are doing now and what I attempted to do here, but I'm not getting it. Here's your chance. Share your solution.

[donco6]

86. I seriously doubt anyone gives a shit.

And it really speaks for itself.

[Amerigo Vespucci]

142. And I respect your right to not give a shit and to not elaborate

I'm of the opinion that I can never speak for anyone but myself. When you say "I seriously doubt anyone gives a shit," you're speaking for others. And that's OK. That's just one area where you and I differ. It's your right...free speech, right? You may not agree with me, and if you're really opposed to what I've said here, you can put me on ignore. That's OK. That's how the rules work. Just look at the original post and you'll see for yourself.

[MrScorpio]

152. Well the sheer number of recs, plus the spirit of debate shows evidence to the contrary

And we are all free to speak for ourselves

[donco6]

161. And rules make us even freer! . . . er . . . wait a minnit. n/t

[MrScorpio]

162. Because they're applied to each an every one of us

It's not that difficult a concept to accept, is it not?

[skepticscott]

125. Agreed

Anyone who is not a mod has a simple recourse available to them if they think someone's post violates the rules: Click the Alert button. If the post is judged to be in violation of the rules, it will be bounced. If not, tough. If you don't like the way the rules are enforced, or think the mods are too slow or too reluctant to bounce posts or people, you are free to go elsewhere. It is not the place of anyone who is not a mod to scold others about perceived rules violations with a condescending OP. Again, if you don't like the atmosphere here, you are free to leave and find a progressive lovefest of your own.

[MrScorpio]

65. I don't think DU is dead at all, but quite the contrary

It's very much alive.

Everyone here are always free to express their opinions, just as long as they play within the rules.

It doesn't hurt us one bit to be reminded of them.

I'm sure that you've seen their beneficial effect as well in ways that make DU the outstanding place on the Net that it is.

[skepticscott]

76. Exactly

no one ever said that DU was a free speech zone. People need to be careful what they say and be sure to never offend anyone.

[Vickers]

47. "Personal attacks" are my #1 reason for alerting. I can put up with quite

a bit, but I insist on civility.*

K&R


*amongst ourselves

[Amerigo Vespucci]

50. That's the entire intention behind this post.

You can read the responses so far and judge for yourself as to how effective it's been. I have a hard time understanding why this even needs to be a topic of conversation, but it's clear that it does.

:toast:

[bobbolink]

82. Thank you for alerting on incivility.

We have lost too many good people because of the obnoxious attacking.

[Renew Deal]

91. I'll give you something to alert on!

:evilgrin:

[bobbolink]

93. I know you thiink that's very funny. For those of us who have survived physical attacks, it is not.

could you please have a bit more sensitivity?

Thank you.

[Renew Deal]

96. Physical attacks from DU?

Did someone beat you with a keyboard? Since when were we talking about "physical attacks?"

[bobbolink]

99. Thank you sooooo much for your ongoing sensitivity.

MOst "progressives" are very aware of women who have experienced domestic violence. Apparently that knowledge has either escaped you, or it doesn't matter to you.

And, yes, I have received death threats from DU. Not that it would matter to you, either.

So, continue the macho stance.

I have no need to be on the receiving end of more macho.

Good night. I think its best for both of us that you reside on my ignore list, with the rest of the macho crowd.

[Renew Deal]

101. It must be nice to be a part of your sheltered little world

That combination of a lack of sense of humor with the ability to conflate a discussion of DU rules to "domestic violence" is "admirable."

[bobbolink]

104. Hurrah! It's gone!

:bounce: :party: :bounce:

[Renew Deal]

90. Who made you a hall monitor?

:rofl:




:pals:

[Vickers]

103. I just kinda fell into it...

:P

[Dystopian]

51. KandR.

Thank you for taking the time to post this...


peace~

[Amerigo Vespucci]

54. Thanks Dystopian...

...you could teach a few people on DU about posting with respect. I always enjoy reading whatever you have to say.

:toast:

[edbermac]

56. I'm a Zaldan, I hate politeness.

Meanwhile, Wesley successfully defuses a tense situation when another officer bumps into him in a corridor, prompting a heated, angry threat. At first, Wesley is diplomatic and apologetic, until he spots the officer's webbed fingers, a trademark of the Zaldans who view politeness and courtesy as an irritating form of dishonest social behavior. Wesley immediately threatens the larger officer with violence if he does not back down, something the Zaldan admires before congratulating him and walking away. Officer Chang approaches, having watched the confrontation. He commends Wesley on passing yet another test, the ability to deal with different races and their respective cultures.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coming_of_Age_(Star_Trek:_The_Next_Generation)

[Kahuna]

62. There apparently ARE exceptions. I alerted on a poster who was obviously

stalking and harrassing and trying to provoke another poster with rude and insulting taunts a few days ago. Most of those insulting taunts are still on that thread.

[Amerigo Vespucci]

71. I can't explain it

But I have seen it happen. That's when I usually take a couple of days off. But it's my intention here to give the moderators the benefit of the doubt. They repeatedly say "let us do our jobs," so I think we should. And if anyone has an issue with the way they handle (or do not handle) a situation, they want to be approached one-on-one, not in a thread complaining abut their actions.

I'd just like to see the childish crap stop. It will never stop completely but it had become much more widespread. I don't know why. I don;t need to know why.

[Name removed]

107. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[The Straight Story]

64. Stalking is the worst (nt)

[Kahuna]

72. Yep. Sometimes there seem to be gang stalking as if it is organized..

in an effort to make the target lash out and get ts'd. That's when I use the ignore function.

[Bobbie Jo]

74. Exactly.

You can almost set your watch by it.

[bobbolink]

105. Yes, they are well organized. Its like Faux news... you can see the same talking points.

SHAMEFUL.

The problem with ignore in that case is not being able to prove the stalking, which is against the rules, and should lead to being banned.

[Amerigo Vespucci]

140. That's why "not taking the bait" is so important.

Once again, I posted the rules to address extreme behavior on DU, not heated conversations. I'm talking about personal attacks, stalking, and such.

[JNelson6563]

128. A close second would be severe attention whoring.

[Kahuna]

148. Whtever that means.

:shrug:

[Name removed]

153. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MrScorpio]

159. Some of us do have a rudimentary knowledge of Dutch, you know

Your sentiment is duly noted.

[Amerigo Vespucci]

163. That's one of the benefits of the alert system

When someone posts a vulgar insult in a foreign language, the civil and multi-cultural members of DU can send an alert to the moderators with a link to the translation.

:patriot:

[lightningandsnow]

67. POOPY-HEAD!

:P

[northofdenali]

70. but...but..but................

Gotcha

[skepticscott]

77. Pity that courteous liars get the nod

over unabashed truth-tellers, but I guess that's the price you pay for a website where civility rules.

[Lucian]

95. Yes, father.

[Amerigo Vespucci]

138. Surprisingly, I don't have kids

But if I did, I'd encourage them to be kind to one another. I support your right to consider other options.

[onehandle]

106. They will never get it. nt

[Amerigo Vespucci]

137. My friend's story about marathon races

My friend likes to run marathon races. He never wins, never gets second or third...he just runs.

One of his friends asked him why he runs when he never wins.

He replied "Oh, I do win. I beat all of the people who stayed home."

:patriot:

[iamthebandfanman]

108. im sure whining will help.

you are supposed to read the rules when you join, it doesnt need to be posted because you got offended. if you feel someone has violated the rules, alert it.

[Techn0Girl]

121. Calling the OP a "whiner" is probably the kind of thing that the OP was talking about ....

... to begin with.

It's simple civility.
You could have easily stated your opinion that the reminder is nor necessary without calling the OP a whiner.

[tkmorris]

123. "Whining?" Really?

Do you imagine you are helping?

[JNelson6563]

168. There's something to be said

for setting a bad example. :toast:

[Amerigo Vespucci]

135. Several thoughts on your comments...

...first, I appreciate your taking the time to express your opinion, even though I may not necessarily agree with it.

I didn't post this to whine. I also didn't post it because I got offended. I posted it because yes, I have been personally attacked on a number of occasions, but so have some people that I consider to be friends. I see an increase in these attacks, and it's easy to spot daily "I just got back from GD" threads in which people document how they went in and asked a simple question or made a simple statement and had the pile-on begin.

Yes, everyone is supposed to read the rules when they join. I don't believe everyone does, and if they didn't, it's ultimately a problem for Skinner, not me.

You say "it doesn't need to be posted," and that's where you and I will have to agree to disagree, because other people who have responded in this thread feel differently.

If it's not about me...and it most certainly is not...it's not about you, either.

And yes, I do alert when the rules are violated.

But this isn't about being a "cop" or a "narc" or any other "squealer" type of entity.

It's a simple request for all of us to show just a little more respect to each other, and I stunned by the fact that it can't be seen as such.

But like I said...I'm not trying to change your world. I'm just trying to live a little more peacefully in the corner of it that we share on DU. Do what you think you need to do, and so will I.

[CTyankee]

170. There are just some people who will call you names, let's face it.

They will take an innocent remark or post and next thing you know you're a racist, troll, fascist, busybody, whatever...some of them even follow you around and try to goad you. Don't let them. Get right back in their face, nicely, and ask them what they had in mind and would they like to discuss it further. They'll scurry away fast...too much light on them makes them hide. And wish them a good day...it's called "killing with kindness" and it works pretty well because it disarms them!

[SeattleGirl]

160. There is nothing wrong with reminding people occasionally

of the rules of this board. I think we should all be reminded now and then.

[Axle_techie]

110. Wow, I am surprised at the low level of civility

in a thread about the Civility Rules.

My mommy always told me, "If you don't have something nice to say, don't say anything at all."

[Confusious]

114. Well, no curse words or

"you're a doodie head" so it seems to me to be going quite well.

[democracy1st]

119. K & R

[Hekate]

122. A kick and a thank you -- especially for your civil and patient responses.

Cheers.

Hekate

[uncommon]

126. How can you say something is "untrue" without also saying that it is a "lie" ??

Is it a matter of intent? If so, we can hardly know a poster's intent.

Sigh.

[slackmaster]

131. People sometimes pass on bad information without having checked it

They also post opinions that are based on bad assumptions, or formulated from incomplete information.

Understanding the shades of gray between pure truth and a deliberate lie is essential IMO to understanding how two educated, well-meaning people can have different opinions about something.

[Amerigo Vespucci]

134. And there are respectful ways to find out that intent.

Obviously, we have "disruptors" here form time to time, people who post flamebait and such, but we also have people who copy and paste legitimate news articles and receive replies like "SO ARE YOU TRYING TO SAY..."

Once again, I'm not trying to tell anyone how to behave. I'm making a request for a little more mutual respect on DU based on the rules. That's it.

I believe we can pretty much ask others any question we want...it's all in the way it's asked. So instead of a confrontational / accusatory response in which the O.P. is immediately put on the defensive, maybe people could ask their questions in a less threatening manner.

Or not. Everybody's free to do what they feel they have to do.

[AspenRose]

129. I appreciate your efforts.

Just wanted to let you know that.

[TheKentuckian]

130. We need more truth and less varnish that I can see. We need to cut through the fogs of bullshit

It is so skewed that it is a sham anyway. Some of the biggest civility advocates are the biggest assholes so I am left to assume the rule is just a message control device rather than promoting respectful discourse.

[Amerigo Vespucci]

133. I agree...the truth should never be replaced by "respectful discourse."

Discussions of any nature...especially political discussions...can quickly become "passionate," which leads to "heated," which can then become a locked-horns battle of wills and ideas.

I'm not talking about that.

I'm talking about the daily exchanges, the ones where people enter into every conversation in full attack mode. The overall tone in GD has become attack/respond, attack/respond...

I appreciate your taking the time to share your thoughts, and I want to make it clear that I am only asking for "respectful discourse" to be a starting point, and because that is spelled out in the rules for this site, I feel it's a reasonable request.

I don't believe that 100% of the posts here are clouded by "fogs of bullshit"...some, maybe. Others, no. As a result, I don;t believe that we need to sideline respect as a general way of communicating.

[MrScorpio]

156. All opinions are to be respected and are available for debate...

AS we are all are free to express our own.

Clearly, the OP's purpose is not meant to stifle the free exchange of ideas, but to promote it instead.

In fact, we are all entitled to our own opinions; you, me, everybody and no one has the right to "control" our own messages. That is not the reason for the rules or even a reposting of them.

But the rules stand as a testament the fact that civility must rule the roost, if our opinions are to have some value to this board.

[Amerigo Vespucci]

165. The free exchange of ideas with civility. That was my intent.

I think it's a reasonable ideal. And I welcome opinions that differ from my own, otherwise, I'd be living in a bubble. I know some people who would like that...I'm not one of them.

When civility takes a back seat, so does the exchange of ideas...the primary goal becomes confrontation and one-upsmanship. That's what I've attempted to address here.

:patriot:

[LaurenG]

169. Very true

One must not disagree or appear to disagree with those who are much more important or whose opinions are much more important than ours.

[HankyDubs]

132. EXCEPT!!!

"There are no exceptions to these civility rules."

EXCEPT!!!

If you are talking about 9/11. If you are talking about 9/11, then it is PERFECTLY FINE to call people conspiracy theorists, accuse them of wearing tin hats, implying they are mentally ill. Those comments will NOT be moderated, and THOSE ad hominem attacks are PERFECTLY ACCEPTABLE!

[NJmaverick]

136. K & R!

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

139. Imma just leave this here.

[Amerigo Vespucci]

141. Sorry if you feel I'm Frank Burns, and that this is a Frank Burns post

It's also sad that your response to my call for civility was to insult me, but that's your choice. I hope you're enjoying a laugh.

The difference between you and I is that I wouldn't do this to you. And in a thread where I have stated over and over and over again that I am making a request for civility and not trying to tell people what to do, I find the fact that you chose to make a personal attack speaks volumes.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

144. ...

[Amerigo Vespucci]

145. "..." indeed.

Like I said, glad you're having a laugh, and thank you for providing a perfect example of what's being discussed here.

[MrScorpio]

154. I absolutely agree with your assessment, AV

Frankly, I felt that is was nothing more than an attempt to throw the thread off topic

[Amerigo Vespucci]

155. Maybe she thought we all needed a laugh.

And although there are a few people here who seem opposed to the discussion, I still feel it's important. This has become an ongoing issue, and jokes may lighten things up, but people deserve respect...and that's not always the way things play out here.

[MrScorpio]

157. Although, your right to your expressed opinion is fully extant

In deference to the rules with allow you to express them here, wouldn't it be more constructive to not be as disdainful about it, as your post would suggest?

[ThatsMyBarack]

143. Thanks for finding this, AV!

:hi: I wish I'd had this when I'd been called names and stuff on DU.

[ThatsMyBarack]

158. Two years ago, I posted one of those "popcorn" smilies....

In response to an OP, and someone told me to "Shove that popcorn up your ass, dear." I tried calling out the offender in response to this, but my threads just kept getting locked. One of the mods even sent me a message saying, "Just leave this person alone or else!" Other DUers told me I deserved the treatment I got for posting a :popcorn: in the first place.

At the time it seemed to me that "Civility Rules" just didn't apply to certain people on DU.

Am I wrong to still be mad about this?

[Amerigo Vespucci]

164. The mods are rotated regularly, so I would say "that was then, this is now"...

...I don't know.

And if you have an issue with a moderator, your next option is to take it up with Skinner.

The other thing is never listen to what other DUers tell you unless they are in your posse. They'll never steer you wrong. Everyone else might just be poking you with a stick to see if you blink.

[Danger Mouse]

167. Did you try alerting on the post?

'shove that popcorn up your ass' is a pretty clear personal attack in my book.

however, starting threads calling out a DU'er is also against the rules. if somebody is nasty to you, it's best to alert and then let it be. :shrug:

[CTyankee]

171. Oh, goodness, let it go!

Chalk it up to the few souls on DU who are very unhappy and who knows why? Bad things might be happening in their lives at the time you were posting. You can't fight fire with fire...it can get misconstrued. My advice is to be super nice, but firm. You can call folks out in a very polite way. Be extravantly kind and pleasant while making your point.

Then let it go. I think everybody needs to chill now and again. Right now, I am going thru a somewhat difficult time with my spouse's recovery from back surgery...not the end of the world and he'll be fine, but I know my limits with caregiving...I go to my local library and do research. it is relaxing and very rewarding. It's my little ocean of calm...