South Florida HOA orders cop to remove 'God Bless America' sign

[X_Digger]

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/south-florida-hoa-orders-cop-to-remove-god-884713.html

CORAL SPRINGS — Joe Milenkovic enforces the law for a living, but not when it comes to his "God Bless America" sign.

Milenkovic, 45, the assistant police chief in Delray Beach, used 4-inch magnetic letters to spell out the patriotic message on his garage door. Accompanied by six stars and an American flag, the creation nearly covers the upper half of the door.
...
He said the no-sign rule has been in place for decades and once allowed the association to succesfully force another homeowner to remove an "Impeach Bush" sign that many people found offensive.
...
Although Milenkovic said this is a matter of free speech, Poliakoff disagreed. He said the First Amendment protects against government intrusion on free speech, but "individuals can agree to restrict their own speech, which they do when they buy into a deed-restricted community."

Why is it that people don't understand that the first amendment applies to the government, except in very limited circumstances in certain states?

[Renew Deal]

1. Home Owners Association Nazis strike again.

They're a semi-legal mob.

[The Northerner]

2. I concur

Edit: After reading this:

"Although Milenkovic said this is a matter of free speech, Poliakoff disagreed. He said the First Amendment protects against government intrusion on free speech, but "individuals can agree to restrict their own speech, which they do when they buy into a deed-restricted community."

It seems that he will be required to abide by the rules of the deed-restricted community if there was a prearranged agreement or contract signed prior.

Oh well.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

21. Actually there are fully legal, which is quite scary sometimes

[BlueCheese]

29. After what some relatives of mine went through...

I would do my best to avoid living anywhere with an HOA. If you pay the mortgage and the property taxes, but someone else decides what color the trim is, who really owns the house? That in the United States of America you have to ask some overbearing neighbor for permission to out in a swing set is ludicrous.

Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if Mussolini was an HOA board member once.

[KingFlorez]

3. You have to abide by these restrictions when you live in one these types of places

The regulations say no signs, so no signs.

[usregimechange]

5. remind me to not live in places like that, in fact, they can move places like that to Russia

[Mariana]

23. Russians probably wouldn't put up with that kind of shit.

Plenty of Americans buy in places like that, though, so it's obviously what they want. Conformity must be maintained, every house must look like every other house, and they all have to look dull and boring. I wouldn't live among such people, the kind who'll blow a gasket if a neighbor hangs the sheets out on a fine autumn day.

[BlueCheese]

31. My guess...

... is that most people in a neighborhood would rather not have an HOA, but decide that it's something they can deal with. Unfortunately, it's the nosy and meddlesome types who are the only ones who end up being on the board, and then make life miserable for everyone else.

[usregimechange]

4. Um, it isn't on a government building so it is free speech, leave em alone

[X_Digger]

9. Umm.. If he were on public property and the governement said he couldn't have a sign..

.. then that would be a first amendment case.

On his own property, dealing with restrictions he signed up for as part of the HOA? No 'first amendment' issues involved.

[usregimechange]

11. the government can't restrict speech in public either, the first amendment prohibits gov

from such things, not the people.

[X_Digger]

12. I think we're talking past each other.

This is not a first amendment issue because we're not talking about a law or a local ordinance, merely a rule promulgated by the HOA.

The government typically can enforce restrictions on the first amendment, if the restrictions are content-neutral and provide alternate channels for expression. Google 'time, place, and manner'. (ie, you can't get a bullhorn and start a political rant @ o'dark-thirty on your street -- time. You can't hang your political sign from an overpass, or have a political rally in the median of an interstate -- place. You can't carry around a five foot wide sign that blocks the sidewalk from pedestrians -- manner.)

[RB TexLa]

6. He knew there was a HOA who's rules he has to abide by when he bought the house

A contract is a contract.

I don't care for HOAs but you sign up for the rules you obey the rules.

[Canuckistanian]

22. "A contract is a contract."

I believe that was one of the defences of slave owners.

The Constitution DOES regulate what constitutes a legal contract.

[RB TexLa]

33. And HOAs as bad as they are don't compare to slavery. This man pays money to live under the rules of

his HOA.

[unblock]

7. "free speech" is a more general concept than simply that portion of the 1st amendment

you are correct that the first amendment prevents congress from restricting freedom of speech, but this does nothing to restrict homeowners' associations.

however, "free speech" is a more general concept that as a culture, we should have a bias toward permitting and tolerating others' speech, even if we find it offensive or otherwise distasteful -- that the correct response is more speech, not less.

the idea is that homeowners' associations ought to be very loathe to have such restrictions in the first place, and prospective buyers should be loathe to buy into such neighborhoods. yes, they have the right to have and to enforce such restrictions, but it's a rather, well, un-american thing to pursue.

[X_Digger]

10. I'll agree that it's a general concept..

.. but the restrictions enumerated by the first amendment, are restrictions on the government* alone, not on corporations** or individuals.

I will never live in an HOA community for just such a reason. I retain all my rights, I will never piss them away to a bunch of petty tyrants with an accountant.


* originally only the fed, eventually state and localities via selective incorporation after the 14th amendment & slaughter-house cases

** two states apply their state level analog of the first amendment to the public areas of shopping malls- CA & NJ.

[marybourg]

20. What if you went house-shopping and saw a house that you liked

but the garage door directly across the street had a huge sign that said "Obama is a Muslim"? Would you buy that house. Of course not. How would you feel about "free speech" if you were the homeowner trying to sell the house? So, far from being unhappy with the restrictions of an average HOA, most people, although perhaps resenting any restrictions placed upon them, are very happy with the restrictions placed on their feckless neighbors. Or were you thinking that because the sign in the story had the word "god" in it it was O.K., but the Obama sign wasn't O.K.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

25. What happens if you substitute black for signs in your example?

[Hassin Bin Sober]

27. Race is a protected category. Garage signs are not.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

35. Not relevant in the example given

The "it would lower properties" excuse does not care if the purported cause is a protected category or not. Neither do most people in this country.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

37. It is the ENFORCEMENT of the rule or "excuse" that is being discussed here.

You can be upset about a black family moving in across the street. You just can't (legally) do anything about it.

Not sure why you are bringing this in to the mix. I noticed you did something similar in the gungeon yesterday. Let's keep it simple, shall we? This is a simple case of someone violating their HOA rules. Rules which are not superseded by any civil rights laws.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

38. I agree with that it is a HOA rules issue

the example tried to make it a property values issues, which is inane.

I use a substitution approach to many things here since it works well in showing the unsupportability of many arguments. When you substitute black for gun owner/open carry, it shows how embarrassing their position is

[marybourg]

32. My husband would ask him who cuts his hair. nt.

[X_Digger]

36. If I liked the house, I'd buy it.

I'd like to know that I had an asshole neighbor up front, rather than finding out later what a stupid shit he is.

[Dappleganger]

18. It's quite a challenge to find a newer home in FL

which isn't within an HOA already.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

24. That is a key point...

Most government bodies REQUIRE new developments to have HOAs. It lowers the cost to the body for the new homes, including parks and green space. In some cases, the planning boards get to approve the original version of the HOA rules. From that one could make the connection that the government is involved in suppressing free speech. The obvious exit from that is that as long as there are other places to live without HOAs, then the resident did have a choice. However, in many regions, you are right about being unable to find a place without an HOA.

Last time I was in an HOA, I helped foment an rebellion. We openly said we would through out the management company and then remove most of the stupid rules. We almost won a majority and did get a lot of reforms. The following election, we won a majority. I had moved by then, but the speed with which a lot of the old crap was dismantled was a civilian example of shock and awe.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

26. Sounds like you, unlike the cop in the OP, did it the right way. ...

.... Through the election process. Not violating the rules, wrapping yourself in the flag and crying like a baby when you get called on it.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

39. The old guard in that development is still bitching about it.

Was over there this past weekend and an old neighbor who forgot about what side I supported was telling me how much things had gotten worse since the old timers had been tossed.

[tanyev]

34. Texas, too.

Unless you want to live way out in the sticks, and increase your commute by a considerable number of miles.

[david13]

8. If the rule is no signs, then no signs. dc

[Book Lover]

13. Another strong piece of evidence that HOAs do more harm than good (nm)

[Hassin Bin Sober]

14. It bugs me even more that fat piggy can't grasp the free speech issue (or lack there of).

[guitar man]

15. That's why I wouldn't live in that type of HOA

Ours only has two rules. Rule one is you must have at least one rusty old car up on blocks in the yard. Rule two is that any addition to your house must be started from a trailer house or travel trailer that you drug up next to it.

:rofl:

[KansasVoter]

28. I am glad our HOA has rules like that. It would become a mess!

[msongs]

16. what's the saying about facism, flags and religion? who cares if he is a "cop" nt

[Dappleganger]

17. I'm sorry but it looks stupid.

Our HOA would probably complain too unless it was a temporary sign to welcome home a soldier (which has happened here before). If he put it on a small flag in his flowerbeds it would be allowed here, though.

Why doesn't he just sew up the flag into a Snuggie and lay out on the front lawn??

[boppers]

19. A police officer who thinks the rules don't apply to them?

Heaven forbid!

:sarcasm:

[depakid]

30. Note to the libertarians out there: this is what you get with corporate rule

Little or no recourse.