I'm disheartened by the lack of respect for teachers

[potassiumnitrate]

I have news for all of you who have never actually stood in front of a group of 30 or so children or teenagers: You have no fucking idea what you're talking about.

Do you think it's easy or something? Do you think YOU can take a diverse set of students, each with their own learning styles, intelligences, behavior problems, disabilities, social and economic issues, previous histories, etcetera, and successfully get each and every one of them to grasp the concept of a logarithm, or how to interpret a line in Shakespeare, or to find Afghanistan on a map?

What's the criteria for a "good teacher"? The one who passes every single student with a B+ or more? Because let me tell you, if that's the mark breakdown in a classroom, that is a BAD teacher. There will ALWAYS be a certain number of students who fail. Some students simply don't try. Some students are simply incapable of retaining the knowledge. Some students have problems at home. Teachers are NOT THE PARENTS of these children. They try their best to get them to learn, but in the end, there's only so much that can be done.

There's no magic formula. They can't just snap their fingers and BOOM all of a sudden your child knows how to do long division.

That all on top of taking care of the multitude of other things that go on in the typical day of a teacher. Lesson planning, attendance, dealing with behavior problems, making tests and assignments and marking them, doing report cards, parent/teacher interviews, assessment, extra curricular activities that they are NOT OBLIGATED to perform but do so anyway out of the GOODNESS OF THEIR OWN HEARTS and actually caring about their students.

Teachers have enough on their plates. They don't need all you ignorant outsiders who know ABSOFUCKINGLUTLEY NOTHING about it to chime in. I dare any one of you naysayers to actually get in front of a classroom of 30 fifteen year olds and see if they don't tear you apart.

[FiveGoodMen]

1. K&R

[phantom power]

2. Teachers are underpaid.

[potassiumnitrate]

4. And disrespected on a daily basis

It sickens me.

[phantom power]

8. one of the many unhealthy dis-connects in American discourse

If you ask any individual, they will almost all agree that education is incredibly important for children, but simultaneously many of these same people seem to think that neither teachers nor schools in general are worth spending any money on. Or, alternatively, they think it's all good as long as they can afford good education for their children -- everybody else is on their own.

It's really bad -- charter schools, home schooling, vouchers, private schools, it seems like Americans are all abandoning public schooling. We're going to end up with a permanent underclass.

:(

[uncommon]

20. You think you are alone? Buck up - most working people are disrespected on

a daily basis.

[Dappleganger]

106. Listen

To what you just wrote. Say it aloud.

Yes, it does sound that wrong.

[Whisp]

182. Thankyou for saying that.

[liberation]

214. Just because you are quiet when you're shat on...

... doesn't mean other people have to share your same scatological interests.

[Hannah Bell]

253. but not in the media, unless the ptb have to decided to fuck them.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

26. Would doubling their pay change anything in the schools today? I think not.

Also, given their skill levels etc, they are underpaid initially and probably overpaid at the end of their careers when you use a relative worth approach to salaries, which is the standard for professionals in the real world.

[phantom power]

43. I think "so."

1) It would be a piece of economic justice. What is it "worth?" to have your child taught well? What is it "worth" to society in general to have well-educated children? It's actually worth rather a lot to me to have my kid taught by somebody highly skilled and experienced and motivated.

2) It would be an immediate improvement to teacher morale, which is clearly in the gutter. I bet that alone would improve our childrens' education.

3) It would help teachers pay for all the crap they are currently paying for on small salaries. Although the actual solution to that problem should be doubling school funding, as a generalization of doubling teacher salaries.

4) To whatever extent the teaching profession suffers from an actual lack of talent, paying a salary more competitive with other white-collar jobs would attract more talent.

5) To whatever extent "skill level" is a problem, it would help pay for continuing ed.

6) None of this precludes any other steps that need to be taken to get our public education system back on the rails. It would just be a fucking awesome start.

[JVS]

44. It would radically alter the pool of applicants within 10 years.

[Gidney N Cloyd]

51. If you front-loaded the salary progression a bit more it might keep some good teachers from quitting

Another salary-related change that might help would be to make it easier for experienced teachers to change school districts. Right now the experienced teachers' higher salaries can prevent cash-strapped principals from hiring them. Not sure what the best way to do that is but it seems like you'd have to pay all teachers in a state out of a state fund rather than out of local tax funds. So a teacher moving from town A to town B brings her salary grade X with her and no one in town B even blinks.

[uncommon]

52. What teachers are quitting? Around here good teachers are getting laid off - and

people who have studied to be teachers can't get jobs.

[Gidney N Cloyd]

56. This is an ongoing problem. The current recession likely is temporarily mitigating it.

[CreekDog]

69. can't handle a complicated set of facts can ya?

needed a better teacher! :P

[uncommon]

79. Excuse me?

A poster made a vague comment and I asked for clarification, which wasn't really given I might add.

[CreekDog]

81. churn and layoffs can occur simultaneously

you seem to be having difficulty comprehending the possibility simultaneous things happening in different time scales.

[uncommon]

82. No, I understand it, it just doesn't seem to be happening here.

Rather, the layoffs and lack of hiring *is* happening here. My SO is a teacher - I get to hear about everything that's going on every single day.

I am having no trouble comprehending anything, thanks.

[CreekDog]

83. do you understand it?

"Half of Teachers Quit in 5 Years"

"The proportion of new teachers who leave the profession has hovered around 50 percent for decades, said Barry A. Farber, a professor of education and psychology at Columbia University in New York."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/08/AR2006050801344.html

[uncommon]

88. Who can blame them - they are underpaid and constantly subject to layoffs and rehires.

:shrug:

[CreekDog]

116. i think you need memory pills

:rofl:

[Hannah Bell]

254. the discussion might go better if you stopped denigrating your discussant.

that roly-thing doesn't add weight to arguments, btw.

it just makes the people who use it look like jerks.

[CreekDog]

68. Something like 50% of teachers leave teaching within 5 years --THAT'S COSTLY!

all the money wasted on education programs which must churn out twice the number of teachers to account for the churn

if teachers were better paid, there would be a larger pool to hire from and fewer positions to fill from that pool

damn right it would change things

[Hannah Bell]

255. what a bullshit talking point, for multiple reasons.

starting with "something like"

[Dappleganger]

98. Yes it would.

It would give gifted teachers who are forced to leave the profession due to needing more money a better reason to stay. It would also encourage the better-credentialed teachers to stay for a longer period of time, too. Smarter teachers would be more attracted to the profession if the pay was better.

And since you made the assertion, how are you arriving at the idea that teachers are overpaid at the end of their careers?? Please don't tell me that they get summers for free and only school hours for work, either. As a daughter of a teacher I KNOW my momma spent many long hours at home calling parents after school was over, tutoring students and creating lesson plans throughout the summer. It usually worked out that she only had a few weeks of any real vacation (and she never, ever complained about it...she loved teaching).

[rucky]

225. It's not about the pay, so much...

as being micromanaged. The high stakes testing, the political sidehows, the union-busting & privitization disguised as reform - and the pressure it brings on students, teachers, schools, districts and entire states (RTTT) - have taken away the reasons why teachers enter the profession in the first place. What I learned in grad school was so different from the curriculum and policy I had to enforce as a teacher, it totally turned me off from the profession. All I have to show for 3 years of training is a whopper of a student loan.

[Taitertots]

42. The entire working class is underpaid

The system can't support higher pay for teachers. Only when people realize that systemic problems exist causing massive inequality in wealth and income, will we be able to fix those problems and increase teacher salaries.

[obxhead]

208. Ah yes, we don't have the money for teachers and schools....

Yet somehow Dems and Pubs managed to work together for the last 9 years to fund 2 pointless wars.

Keep on saying there's no money. It's exactly what they want you to believe.

[Dappleganger]

3. Big K&R

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

5. I believe a great portion of those actually want to get back at teachers as a whole from school time

Some of the failed students you mention hold grudges.

--- BEGIN GODWIN ---

I remember watching a movie in which a German dumbass loser got a job as a Nazi komisar, and the first thing he did was denounce his former teachers as anti-Nazi and get them sent to camps. He speaks enthusiastically about how good it felt.

Was it "The Pianist"? I don't remember.

--- END GODWIN ---

[LoZoccolo]

21. And why would anyone want to do that?

Probably because they had poorly-skilled teachers.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

47. Mmmmm. Interesting response. There's other possibility, though.

The person with the grudge actually IS an anti-intellectual, dumbass loser.

[Soylent Brice]

204. !

:rofl:

[Zoeisright]

172. Doubt it. They're just mean and deliberately ignorant.

What a dumb post.

[Catshrink]

174. Some people make a career of it.

deliberate ignorance, that is.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

206. I don't know. Meanness seems to be an even more promising career field nowadays.

Not that deliberate ignorance isn't thriving too, mind you. Far from it.

[Hannah Bell]

256. probably because they're nasty little nazis. i've had bad teachers, bad bosses, bad

doctors, bad car mechanics.

bad everything, in fact. somebody's "bad" to everybody, & every job has it's "bads".

there's no one i feel bad enough about to try to take down the entire profession, lower their wages, or denounce them to the gestapo.

jesus christ.

[no_hypocrisy]

6. K & R

I've taught kids who were underestimated. Had C's, D's, and F's. But brighter than their above-average counterparts. B/c nobody listened to what they were saying. They "got it". Tests weren't their strongest vehicles, that's all.

[RaleighNCDUer]

31. Then there were others of us who also had c's d's and f's, but always

aced the tests - the problem was getting us to show up for class and do homework.

When I was a kid i was put in remedial general math in 9th grade instead of algebra despite getting the 3rd highest score in my entire school on my 8th grade math finals - I just couldn't be bothered with doing homework.

Every student is different, and each is different in a different way than the others.

I have nothing but respect for teachers - even the bad ones. It's a job I know I could never do.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

40. Sounds like you were bored and entirely unchallenged.

Classic signs of a kid not being advanced at a level appropriate for them.

[bobbolink]

7. Teachers also provide warm coats for kids who have none, school supplies for those whose parents

have no money, food for kids who come to class hungry.

What we are doing to children and teachers in this society is CRIMINAL!

:nuke:

[Dark]

9. The problem is they aren't paid enough, and it's way too difficult to get rid of the bad ones.

So, you either have the teachers who do it because they care about their students and love their job, or don't give a shit and are there because that's what their degree was for.

The good ones excite kids about learning, while the bad ones just put in a movie or half ass it.

That structure keeps the bad people in the profession and many good people, who'd like to teach, out of the profession. Pay them well and you'd see quite a few more good people entering the profession, and get rid of the bad teachers to make room.

Also, the current crop of good teachers deserve a big pay boost, cause of all the shit they're enduring to do what they love.

[hughee99]

10. You know what I love about the DU?

We have people from all walks of life with opinions about world politics, law, government, science, social issues, and just about everything else under the sun. An artist and carpenter can share their opinions on the "Ground Zero Mosque", or what Obama should do about Afghanistan. A doctor and an auto worker can talk about how to clean up the oil in the gulf, or what the best way to start a grassroots movement for a local candidate. A college student and a political activist can discuss Terry Schaivo's brain scan and why she should no longer be kept alive on a respirator or feeding tube.

So you don't have to be a politician or military strategist to discuss Iraq and Afghanistan, have any professional expertise to talk about oil cleanup techniques, be a lawyer to discuss the law, or a doctor to discuss medical issues...

But if you're not a teacher don't ever share your opinions on education because you don't know what you're fucking talking about.

:sarcasm:

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

12. +1000

Sadly, some of the teachers here on DU themselves seem to have no fucking clue what they're talking about on education either. They're perfectly happy to just parrot someone else's stance without even bothering to look beyond their own noses.

[Whisp]

183. or without even bothering to read the links they post.

where said link has information that is right out contrary to the headline and intro.

gotta love that! lol

[msanthrope]

222. Yes. The irony of teachers not reading the primary source material???

(Whistling tunelessly)

[Hannah Bell]

257. speaking of....

[uncommon]

16. +1 brazillion

[CBR]

54. +1... My field is public policy... I demand that no one on DU

ever comment on public policy -- the process, the actors, the evaluation etc... Let's see how that goes.

[CreekDog]

75. do people that make ignorant statements help any of these discussions?

i want people who've bothered to have an opinion to discuss things

but simplistic blah blah blah that's just expressing ignorant rants are a waste of time and are making DU a lot less useful than it once was.

[izquierdista]

55. Corollary to what you said

If you ARE a rocket scientist writing about rockets, or a brain surgeon discussing Terry Schaivo, or a nuclear scientist writing on the nuclear waste issue, within half an hour a reply will ask :wtf: do you know?!?

[woo me with science]

61. +1 nt

[CreekDog]

73. That's a problem at DU...people here often DON'T respect any knowledge, education or expertise

people arguing against vaccines with scientists

people arguing that smoking doesn't cause cancer

people arguing that certain things don't exist because they have never seen them

people arguing on all kinds of topics on the basis of their very loud and very obvious ignorance

unlike you, i would like to see a lot less of that, across the board.

:rant:

[Quantess]

94. Yes, thank you. (no text)

[Dappleganger]

102. +10000

[hughee99]

125. I think you're missing the point of the OP

it's not about people arguing a specific point, it's about people discussing the matter or providing ANY input at all without having actually performed that particular job themselves.

Everyone has their opinions, criticism, and ideas, and to suggest that because one is not a professional in that specific field that their opinions necessarily have NO value seems to me to go against the core of Democratic principles. Sure, people can have stupid ideas, but that should be judged based on the idea itself and not background of the person proposing it.

[kwassa]

160. There is a problem, though.

This was actually discussed back when I was in teacher training; we read educational research on the subject.

And I've seen it in action.

In middle class areas, parents often feel that they have as much educational expertise as the teachers in the local schools, and interact with the teachers on that level. They also interfere sometimes, thinking they know more.

and they really don't. Those who volunteer in the school, or work as substitutes, wise up very quickly. This is why we teachers ask if the questioner has ever taught. It is easy to stand outside the system and criticize it, or more commonly extrapolate from one's own life experience of what was educationally suitable for them and assume it is right for everyone else.

It is much different just to be there, as there are more variables than people can imagine, and we have to deal with them all.

Poor parents tend to regard teachers as experts, and turn over the responsibility of education to the teacher. This doesn't work, of course. Education needs to be supported at home.

[hughee99]

176. While getting some knowledge of the questioner's background MAY help

move the argument along by understanding their perspective, the question "Where (or when) did you teach" is usually, in my experience, an attempt to shut down the debate.

[msanthrope]

118. Forget DU, I love you...excellent post. n/t

[Doctor_J]

124. By this reasoning, Glen Beckkk's take on global warming is equally valid

as professional climate scientists. Do you believe Beck only on teachers, or all of his insane ravings?

[hughee99]

126. An argument should stand on its own merits and not be dismissed because

of the background of the one making it.

[wickerwoman]

177. Poppycock.

How do you know the earth goes around the sun if you're not a physicist or an astronaut? You trust the hundreds of years of peer-reviewed authorities who have actually studied the subject. You don't study physics until you can do the proofs yourself.

When you have a cancer do you do what your doctor tells you or do you study medicine until you can make the call yourself? Do you weigh the advice of your physician and your next door neighbor the same until you see the chemical formulas?

How do you know dinosaurs and people didn't live during the same time period? Have you carbon dated the bones yourself? Gone back in a time machine to be sure?

Do you take legal advice from a lawyer or your thirteen year old niece?

Probably 99% of what you "know" are facts that you accepted on the authority of the person telling them to you.

You are not an *expert* in education just because you went to school and/or have kids in school. It is a legitimate discipline that people study for years in order to master.

The point is that it is a seriously disrespected discipline and evidence of that is all the way up and down this thread.

[hughee99]

180. Well this is certainly an interesting attempt to re-frame my position.

Do you have NO opinions on politics, public policy, poverty, crime, the law, health care, the best way to grow tomatoes or the designated hitter?

I have made NO attempt to suggest in any way that a professional doesn't know their job, or that their opinion is necessarily no better than anyone else's, HOWEVER, it seems to be to be an absolutely ridiculous assumption to believe that anyone who is not a teacher automatically has no valid opinions, thoughts or suggestions on education in general.

To judge a teacher on one single factor (students test scores) is no less ignorant than to judge an idea based on one specific aspect of the background of the person who presented it (whether or not they faced a classroom of 30 students).

[Hannah Bell]

258. +100. let's remember, glenn beck loves ed deform. so do all the wingnuts.

BECAUSE IT'S THE JOHN BIRCH SOCIETY'S POLICY, CIRCA 1960.

[etherealtruth]

131. Excellent!!!!!!!

[salin]

161. I think that part of the problem are beliefs that are absolute:

all teachers are equal and equally good,

or on the other side that the problem when schools have perpetual problems are all because of the teachers (and ignore serious societal issues that account for many challenges.)

I am aghast to realize that I have been in the field for going on thirty years. A growing proportion of those years are in some of our most challenging urban areas (per perpetual low performing schools.) I don't believe either of the two views stated above.

Given that I have limited posted time, I don't feel I can comment on most threads, as I am not around to respond to comments to statements that may be contrary to what seems to be a growing DU line (one of the two views stated), and without discussion/conversation can not clarify meaning - and am concerned that I would thus be cast as one who believes the other view - while my views are much more complex.

Regardless, I still devote between 60-70 hours a week teaching high poverty students, give most of my vacations to them (only took two days off during summer vacation between early June and Mid August when school started back up; was at school for regular hours nearly everyday this summer.) I don't think that only teachers can comment on education issues, but understand the impression - as I feel it as well.

[hughee99]

175. Having, myself, taught in the past

I can understand the feeling that people who don't do the job may not really understand the issues. This feeling isn't unique to teachers, though, people in almost any profession usually feel like those who haven't done the job don't really understand the issues involved.

However, on a message board where people every day express their opinions on areas that they do not have any special "inside knowledge" about, I've found it somewhat unique to teachers to express such an attitude. Not to say all teachers automatically dismiss the opinions of those who haven't taught, but in virtually any education thread of sufficient length, you will see someone's argument degrade to "you don't teach so you can't understand". In threads on other subjects, I've rarely see this.

[rucky]

226. And the weakest opinions are the least informed.

Plumbing advice from a doctor is worth less than from a plumber. Medical advice from a plumber... you get the picture. Where else do you get good information, if not from professionals who've worked, researched and, yes, taught in the field?

But a teacher's opinion doesn't seem to be worth as much to somebody who's been to school for 12 years. Why is that? I've driven a car for longer than that, but still need a mechanic to help me figure out what's wrong.

[hughee99]

245. Do only teachers teach?

I'm not a school teacher now, but I spend a great deal of time showing people how to do things that they don't know how to do. Some people would call that "teaching". I'm not saying teachers opinions necessarily have no more value than anyone else's, but is it outside the realm of possibility that someone who's not a school teacher may have a valid opinion?

[rucky]

247. Of course not.

I think the OP and my point was more about the hostility toward the profession, and why it doesn't even seem to be regarded as a profession to some folks.

I understand it's more personal to people than plumbing or auto mechanics, with kids at stake and all. You ask any teacher what's the most dramatic improvement that could be make in education, and 9 out of 10 would say "parent involvement" - so yes, these opinions are valued & needed.

[hughee99]

248. I 100% agree with your assessment of the situation,

I was in no way trying to suggest that teachers opinions don't hold great value, but the OP, as I read it, was basically saying that anyone who's not a teacher should shut up because they don't know anything and have nothing of value to contribute.

In my opinion, with parental involvement so critical, a teacher can't tell parents they don't give a fuck what any of them think because they don't know anything. Parents may have all sorts of bad ideas, but you can't automatically dismiss them all just because they're not teachers. Each idea should be judged on it's merits.

[DeschutesRiver]

228. +100. nt

[Daphne08]

11. +10000

Former teacher here who has taught many subjects to thousands of students - grades 7-12.

The public at large has no idea.

[Skidmore]

58. I disagree.

It doesn't take training in education, if you are a parent who pays attention to your child's education, to know when something isn't working for the child or for a group of children, if you are in regular contact with other parents in the same system. Now there is something really really wrong in the workings of some schools, particularly when graduation or skills levels remain extremely low. There is no way you can gloss this over as the public being just dumb and unworthy of forming an opinion.

[Daphne08]

191. How many years have you taught?

[uppityperson]

13. As every other profession, there are great, good, mediocre and bad

Like any other profession, it is the bad ones who get noticed, talked about, and the good ones who carry the load. I am not a licensed teacher but have taught as a health care provider. If you want to be even decent, it isn't an easy job.

[pscot]

14. I'd rather face a bayonet charge

than teach high school.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

15. Are you going to stay out of Wall Street's business?

Are you going to keep criticizing politicians?

You aren't them. You know nothing of the process and how it works. All you ignorant outsiders who know ABSOFUCKINGLUTELY NOTHING about it chime in daily.

Oh wait, you know what? We've seen what happens when everyone buts out and lets a group of people run wild, unchecked in their own domains. And it happened in education as well.

Don't want people butting into education? Then perhaps steps should have been taken to make sure our kids can actually fucking read. That would've been a start. Another start would be not letting the nation slip so far behind everyone else that we're more comparable to Croatia than we are to Finland, Korea or China.

So sorry you think people actually look at what's wrong in education and finding plenty of areas of concern is "disrespect" to you. But I'm going to go ahead and continue to do it.

NB - Whining about not having respect is the surest way to never getting any.

[LoZoccolo]

17. I K&R this reply, even if the DU site design doesn't allow it.

:thumbsup:

[uncommon]

19. Likewise.

[ItNerd4life]

36. My hero for the day. Loved your response! nt

[Scurrilous]

39. Great response.

:thumbsup:

[woo me with science]

62. +1 nt

[potassiumnitrate]

64. Apples and oranges

This in response to the others in this thread who mentioned similar sentiments about others like the police etc...

You cannot evaluate a teacher based on the results of the students, period. I elaborated in the OP so I won't bother to repeat it too much here.

Your making a false comparison when you compare teachers to politicians or Wall street bankers or any of the other professions mentioned by others.

[uncommon]

74. A teacher's job is to teach - therefore if the student don't learn,

something is failing. We should take into account other factors, but the teaching IS a factor, whether teachers want to hear it or not.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

77. Yes, you can.

You can rather effectively and fairly evaluate a teacher - at least in part - on the results of their students. As long as you have the kind of standards that Obama is pushing for, the kind of assessments Obama is funding, and the kind of data systems that Obama is funding, these assessments are absolutely fair game to tie to teacher evaluations. There is no question about that.

[YvonneCa]

147. ????????

???????? I have a question...

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

196. Yes?

[YvonneCa]

220. How are you on this lovely...

...Thursday?

[Nevernose]

156. And therein lies the problem

Educators aren't the ones who made this mess out of the public schools; teachers were never consulted on education policy. If they were, they sure as hell weren't listened to.

Our school system, from the ground up, is a nightmare created by politicians and corporate assholes and educational bureaucrats. Start listening to teachers if you want to see a change. For a start, go to the NEA's website and see what they recommend -- all good ideas, all from teachers, none being implemented.

[nenagh]

18. Recently I did a course entitled 'How People Learn'...

it listed about 6 or more methods.. to my total surprise..

I was watching CNN for awhile.. and these new teachers were outlining their new curriculum...

When the thought struck me.. I wondered whether some students in the class really will not be able to read or comprehend very well..

or do basic math.. How do you fix that?

I worked with a wonderful woman but her children simply had extreme difficulty learning to read... and the words the youngest child just could not get straight was words like the and and, an etc.. What a nightmare..

And she spent hours with him...

You are right....no one knows what it is like to stand up in front of a class to teach until you've done it...

Good luck..

[Smarmie Doofus]

22. I hear ya, but there's more support here than we realize:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x9045200


I credit the general intelligence and fairness of the DU community along with passionate and TIRELESS work of a few DU all- stars for taking apart the myriad fallacies of the "school reform" movement to the satisfaction of their fellow DUers.

I reference of course, maffloridian, Dinger, Catshrink, proud2Blib, tonysam, HannahBell and a number of others.

Debunking all the bullshit that those billionaire RW foundations and their "think tanks" crank-out is NO EASY TASK. Particularly since it's really hard for even fair minded folks who are not immersed in the subtleties of school culture to really get a handle on a lot of these things.

[proud2BlibKansan]

111. Thanks Smarmie

[Nite Owl]

23. K&R

[harun]

24. Maybe its because our teachers didn't respect us, therefore why

would we respect teachers.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

27. I saw a fair amount of that in MD, less elsewhere.

[Gidney N Cloyd]

25. I do tech training at a college and you haven't lived until you've tried to teach TEACHERS something

They stroll in late, yak with their neighbors, can't remember their passwords because they haven't actually logged off their office computers in 3 months, and have to check their email or answer their cell phones in the middle of a session. Then there's the ones who have an attitude about having to learn anything new, the ones who think they know more than you do, and my favorites: the ones who misread the session description and expected something else entirely and who then EITHER walk out or try to manipulate the session into something akin to what they were interested in. But the worst thing? The very worst thing? They KNOW they're like that!

The only thing worse is Administrators.


(edited for typo. I'll whack myself with a ruler later.)

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

30. +1

I speak to teachers groups all the time. If any of their students acted in their classrooms like they do at these conferences, they'd be booted in a heartbeat.

Administrators, in my experience, have usually been a lot better.

[proud2BlibKansan]

107. Broad brush attacks really help our discussions here

:eyes:

[Gidney N Cloyd]

149. In my defense, when you read a post 75 posts & 4 hours later the thread may have shifted context.

I have one or two other posts in this thread you might like better.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

28. Yes, even college teaching is harder than it looks

Friday night I would be so tired that even if I went out to a movie or concert, I'd fall asleep during it.

Anyone who voluntarily goes into a K-12 classroom voluntarily nine months of the year for less money than they could be making in the corporate world deserves props simply for that reason.

I would DARE anyone who thinks teachers have a cushy life to go take over a few classes for a week. Most of them would be whimpering heaps of protoplasm by the end of the week.

[Starry Messenger]

29. It's the free market brainwashing in this country.

People are programmed from a young age to have all of their whims catered to in the "marketplace" and they have allowed corporations to debase this profession with their crass "reform" efforts to bring the teachers to heel and to try to make sure that they and their children get to have their own "grande soy latte with sprinkles" education on the public dime. The rest of the public who doesn't want this, and wants education to be cherished and teachers trusted can fuck themselves as far as the reformers are concerned. If these people really wanted to fix education, they'd make sure it was properly funded.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

32. Do you know what I ABSOFUCKINGLUTLEY know?

I know that I ABOSFUCKINGLUTELY pay your salary. And that's my kid in your class.

So you're going to either hear about it from me or you can get out of the profession.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

41. +1!

This OP sounds to me like they think education exists for the teachers, not the students and parents.

[Catshrink]

45. With that attitude, you'd better thank god your kid isn't in my class.

No wonder kids have a sense of entitlement. I bet you think that because you "pay my salary" that I should return the favor and give your kid an A just because. I listen to parent concerns but when a parent approaches me with an attitude, I turn that parent over to the admins to deal with.

[uncommon]

48. No one said you should grade them on that basis - what the people are saying is that

you should be doing the best possible job.

We say the same thing about the politicians whose salaries we pay.

[Name removed]

50. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

53. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

60. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[CreekDog]

80. the best thing you could do for your kids is to not try to impart your unique wisdom

or tact. :D

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

85. My kids already have my tact....

I'm continually impressed by the Chalkboard Mafia around here. I'm told to essentially "Shut the Fuck Up" about the subject of public education because I have "absofuckingluteley" no idea what it's like to be a teacher.

And then I'm told that I have no "tact" when I push back. I'm told that reminding a public employee that they work for the taxpayers is an example of "attitude."

And some people bash teachers? Yowza, what a surprise.

I've tried to be helpful on this subject on other threads. The voters (who in most states play a live-or-die role in the passage of school levies) have expectations and it would not be terribly difficult for teachers and their unions to work something out, even if it were only for appearances.

But I've received nothing but a hearty "fuck you" from the usual suspects.

Fine.

[CreekDog]

86. Respect and Parental/Other Interested Citizen Involvement are not mutually exclusive

And I was responding to your post which was so vapid and gaseous that though I do think anybody should be able to weigh in on educational issues --your first impression on me was that it would be a waste of time.

Not your finest hour, even if perhaps you've made valid points elsewhere.

:shrug:

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

119. They are according to the OP

Didn't you read? I have "absofuckingluteley" no idea what it's like to be a teacher, so I should shut the fuck up.

By that gaseous logic, only surgeons should be able to sue for malpractice because everybody else as "absofuckingluteley" no idea how to cut open a patient.

By that vapid logic, only police officers should decide cases of brutality because the general public as "absofuckingluteley" no idea what it's like to be a cop.

I'm supposed to respect somebody who expresses that kind of contempt for parents? Right.

[CreekDog]

127. I know

There are a number of posters that harangue teachers in the way the OP describes --that's wrong. But the OP kind of paints everybody with that broad brush, which is stupid because it alienates a lot of allies and causes fights over things that aren't central to the issues.

:sigh:

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

142. What we need (my version)

We need some way to assess teachers and determine their ability. Just about every professional working in the private sector undergoes an annual review, so as much as teachers might not like it, they need to develop a realistic assessment. We also need a period where new teachers work under the supervision of experienced more experienced faculty -- and that would be a period BEFORE they are allowed to join the union.

We also need to update and improve the curriculum. My kid is taking a nine-week course in International Foods. Really? And of the options for this "enrichment" class, that was one of the more sane ones. While "enrichment" can be an important part of one's well-rounded education, it shouldn't come at the expense of knowing how to use a semi-colon.

We also need more money (!!!) because we need about 25% more teachers in our schools to reduce class sizes, and those extra teachers are going to need actual classrooms to teach in (many schools are already holding math class in a corner of the gym). And those teachers who finally get through their "apprenticeship" period and become full-fledged union members should be paid more. It's going to be a face-melting amount of money, but that doesn't mean it isn't needed.

What We Don't Need:

More testing. Or any testing that is used to evaluate teachers and/or the schools where they work. Tests are nothing more than a snapshot of a moment in time, and they should be used by teachers to assess whether a student needs extra help in a subject. From that point on, they lose any usefulness they may have had.

Public flogging of teachers. I think Los Angeles is posting the test results of their teachers for anybody to see. That's just fucking rude.

Unions that won't embrace change. Stonewalling on the issue simply alienates voters, who ultimately pay the bills and ultimately call the shots - they are the "public" in "public education" after all, and unions who forget that do so at their peril.

[Malikshah]

236. We need parents

who take part in their child's education first and foremost. The rest will be more effective if that first requirement is met.
Without that first foundation, the odds are stacked against the students and their teachers.

Your previous "I pay your salary" tirade speaks volumes and less than helpful to all concerned.

What teachers make...by Taylor Mali

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxsOVK4syxU

[proud2BlibKansan]

110. And the hearty "fuck yous" in this thread are coming from you

Are you going for a record on number of posts deleted in one thread?

[Catshrink]

130. And a well deserved "fuck you" at that.

[eridani]

185. Their expectations are that their teachers should turn their town into Lake Wobegon

If all the children aren't above average, then the teachers have failed, obviously.

[Catshrink]

96. Hm....

3.7 GPA Ivy League, BA in Chemistry.

Masters in Physics.

Yeah, I'm a dumbass alright. Suck at my job? That must be why I'm a mentor teacher.

But, it's better to suck at a job than to suck at life.

[TexasObserver]

159. Talk about a sense of entitlement. You're an employee.

The parent is a stockholder (voter/taxpayer) in the company (school district) that hires you, pays you, and tells you what to do.

You know those people who work at fast food joints and turn you over to their manager when they just don't care whether they got your order right or not? That seems to be your approach to parents who might know better than you how their child should learn.

Maybe teaching isn't the best job for you.

[potassiumnitrate]

66. This reply is EXACTLY what I'm talking about

Nice show of respect there for the people trying to teach your kid to read. Maybe you should try it yourself.

[uncommon]

70. Are you insinuating that the parents on DU who do find fault with the education system are not

teaching their children in addition to their schooling?

Now THAT'S condescending.

[potassiumnitrate]

72. No, just the ones who disrespect teachers

[uncommon]

76. So everyone on DU who thinks that sometimes teachers are wrong is a bad parent?

Who is being disrespectful here?

[CreekDog]

78. I agree, they should listen to you

But I also think listening to you is an obvious waste of time.

[Name removed]

90. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[proud2BlibKansan]

113. And you know what I know?

Attitudes like yours are not the least bit helpful in ANY discussion, regardless of the topic.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

120. Tell it to the OP

I'm just an "ignorant outsider" here.

Here's what is also not helpful. Read the following sentence:

"Being a member of the Teachers Union no more makes you a competent teacher than being a member of the AMA makes you a competent doctor."

The fact that I have found NOT ONE person representing himself/herself as a teacher and willing to agree to that statement is pretty not helpful in its own right. Until somebody is willing to acknowledge what is a self-evident truth to anybody who has ever been a student or had a kid in school, the "discussion" on DU will be a series of attempt to justify mediocrity (or worse).

[proud2BlibKansan]

122. Your reply, IMO, was far more hostile than the OP

I would also strongly disagree with your statement about unions because my union has an outstanding professional development program for its members. So the argument can be made that being a member of the teachers' union does indeed make you a more competent teacher. Perhaps the fact that we do benefit from professional development as union members explains why none of us are willing to agree with your (sadly ignorant) statement. Just a hunch.

So your statement is what is not helpful here, not the teachers refusal to agree with a falsehood.

And in case you doubt my word:

Here is AFT's policy statement on PD.

And an example of courses offered to members by NEA.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

139. Thank you for being a case-in-point

You won't admit it. You can't admit it.

Some teachers suck and have no business in the classroom.

What's more, I started a thread a few weeks back asking for creative ways to improve outcomes that DIDN'T involve a massive influx of cash. All I got was dumped upon by people demanding more funding for education.

Based on a Gallup Poll from last year, only about 35% of voters say increased funding is the answer. So a stragegy that amounts to "throw money at the problem" is going to be viewed negatively by a majority of voters.

And insisting that there's no such thing as an incompetent teacher makes you look pretty foolish -- and not like the sort of person I'd trust with more or my money -- especially when you call me an "ignorant outsider." Pretty fucking stupid approach for somebody asking for me to part with more of my cash, don't you think?

You people are a Republican Stategist's wet dream. You're completely tone-deaf to the voters AND pretty damned obnoxious to boot. Seriously. You wonder why people have a negative image of teachers' unions?

[proud2BlibKansan]

164. Wow. Reading is fundamental. You should try it.

You won't admit it. You can't admit it.

Admit what? You asked me to agree with this statement:
"Being a member of the Teachers Union no more makes you a competent teacher than being a member of the AMA makes you a competent doctor.""

You complained that teachers didn't agree with this and I explained why.

Now you want me to admit to something that is NOT true just because YOU think it is true?

Huh?

Based on a Gallup Poll from last year, only about 35% of voters say increased funding is the answer.

And every wingnut in America will tell you a majority of Americans don't want health care reform.

A majority of Americans also didn't support gay marriage, didn't want to go to war in WWII and disagreed with integrating schools back in the 60s.

And insisting that there's no such thing as an incompetent teacher makes you look pretty foolish

I am going to ask you to show where I said that. Because unless I am delusional, I never made that statement.

You're completely tone-deaf to the voters AND pretty damned obnoxious to boot. Seriously.

You're the one misquoting ME and now you're calling me tone deaf?? Seriously, dude, your post is a textbook example of obnoxious. To boot. :hi:

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

165. Yet again....

Spin, Obfuscate, Misdirect. Throw in a whole school of red herrings and some hair-splitting semantics.

Everything but acknowledge an obvious fact.

Some teachers have no business in the classroom.

You know that's a fact and your hystrionics on the subject really aren't fooling anybody.

[proud2BlibKansan]

168. LOL you're the one claiming I made statements I never made.

Talk about hystrionics. And misdirecting.

You're the master. I yield to your superior spin tactics.

:rofl:

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

187. This is hard for you, isn't it....

"Now you want me to admit to something that is NOT true just because YOU think it is true?"

You're denying you said it, yet here it is.

Using the ROFL emoticon isn't really fooling anyone (other than perhaps yourself).

Some teachers have no business in the class room.

I'm stating that for the third time, and yet you still won't acknowledge a fact understood by anybody with first-hand experience with the educational system.

Until you can acknowledge the truth, you're nothing but a shill.

[proud2BlibKansan]

190. Please post a link to what you are claiming I said

You're denying you said it, yet here it is.

WHERE?? Here is WHAT??

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

192. Erm...

It was the italicized quote from my last post. That came directly from your previous response.

And posting dumb stuff in big, bold letters doesn't make it any more intelligent, BTW.

[callous taoboy]

215. And some parents have no business raising the children that make up 10% of my classroom each year.

Yet I'll work my ass for that 10% every year, and I usually, but not always, get the needed test results (100% passing for three years in a row now) by the end of the year. I did have a particularly bad class one year and 10 of my students did not pass the reading test. If my results that year had been published in the paper like Arnie proposes then I guess I would be stuck with the "BAD TEACHER" label. Parents would've shaken their heads and asked, "What is he doing in the classroom?"

[jeff47]

207. I'm sorry our education system failed you.

What's more, I started a thread a few weeks back asking for creative ways to improve outcomes that DIDN'T involve a massive influx of cash.

That won't work. We've been de-funding our public education system for the last 30 years. You aren't going to fix that with a "creative" solution. Doesn't matter if it isn't popular, reality isn't subservient to polling. You can not adequately teach children in large classrooms. Back when I was a kid, it was scandalous that the average class size in the local school district had risen to 30. Now it's 60. There is no zero-cost creative solution to that problem. You have to hire more teachers and build more schools to fix it.

And insisting that there's no such thing as an incompetent teacher makes you look pretty foolish

Perhaps you could quote where someone has said "there is no such thing as an incompetent teacher"?

You people are a Republican Stategist's wet dream. You're completely tone-deaf to the voters AND pretty damned obnoxious to boot

Unfortunately our education system failed you. Probably because of chronic under-funding. So those strategists can easily woo you with statistics such as cost-per-pupil being less in private schools than public schools and you then insist there is a cheap fix to the problem. That statistic ignores the most important aspect of a child's education: Parental involvement. Someone who is spending a few grand a year to send their kid to a private school is going to make sure the kid does well. They obviously care about their child's education, or they wouldn't be spending the money. If their kid has trouble in one subject they'll probably hire a tutor, which is not available to poorer parents.

Public schools don't have that option. And with the destruction of the middle class, parental involvement is low - parents are busy working their asses off.

[callous taoboy]

217. jeff47, I could not have said it better. Here is a short list of what I, a third grade

teacher, have had to deal with and then be held accountable for:
-Undernousrished kids
-Kids living in storage facilities and using the bathroom at the mini-mart
-sexually abused kids
-kids who move every few months
-emotionally abused kids
-kids who should not be in regular ed classrooms because the district is paranoid that we'll draw the attention of the
state for trying to appropriately serve kids
-kids who have not been ready for school since before pre-school because there is no literacy in the home and now we are playing catch-up

So far I've been pretty successful with these hard cases, but the state standards continue to rise as home-life / work conditions continue to deteriorate for families.

The poster you responded to must love our current ed. secretary.

[SanchoPanza]

213. I'm a teacher.

And I agree with that statement.

What it has to do with anything, I'm not entirely sure. I can't think of a single profession wherein it has been the job of a union, or a professional association like the AMA, to make rulings on the professional competency of their members. That's been the job of state licensing and certification boards and, of course, employers.

[LWolf]

197. Your checks were short last year, and the check due yesterday is late.

Get on it.

[rucky]

227. And the guy fixing your street?

You pay his salary, too. And drive on that road. Are you going to tell him how to lay pavement?

[Name removed]

33. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[stray cat]

34. kind of like a non-police officer judging police

what you say is true for any profession or group.

[stray cat]

37. You could use the same argument to denial judging or evaluating politicians

unless you are a politician. Or judging W as president unless you were president

[Taitertots]

35. Do you expect people to shower teachers with respect and praise?

Do you think that by complaining about it you are going to cause more people to respect you?


"I have news for all of you who have never actually stood in front of a group of 30 or so children or teenagers: You have no fucking idea what you're talking about."
"They don't need all you ignorant outsiders who know ABSOFUCKINGLUTLEY NOTHING about it to chime in. I dare any one of you naysayers to actually get in front of a classroom of 30 fifteen year olds and see if they don't tear you apart"
This is a flawed assumption. It is a fundamentally unsupportable attempt to position teaching above criticism.
Does this mean that you know nothing about every single job you have never done?

[Catshrink]

46. Well, there are certain poster here at DU we don't expect anything from

but scorn and derision. Some are on ignore, some are just assholes.

[ItNerd4life]

38. It's easy to spot good teachers vs. bad teachers.

I've talked about IT stuff to many high school students in many different classes. While setting up the agenda with the teacher in < 5 minutes it was EASY to tell who was a good teacher and who wasn't.
First rule: Can they communicate? Many couldn't.

[Catshrink]

132. I doubt it.

My guess is you don't know what to look for in a good or "bad" teacher. Five minutes is hardly enough time to discern anything. If politicians and others bitching about education say an experienced and well qualified administrator or peer evaluator can't make a good evaluation in only 30 minutes of observation, do you really think someone not trained in what to look for can do so in 5? The thought is :rofl:.

[nadinbrzezinski]

49. This is part and parcel of American anti intellectualism

It will pass, as it always does... just don't know when.

And I don't know how many generations we will lose in the process.

[EFerrari]

57. Low information parents.

They say things like "I pay your salary" and have no interest in the actual process of educating their children. They approach their relationship with their child's school as if it were a drive-through windows at a hamburger stand.

When I was training, I was really lucky. I was surrounded by professionals who loved their job, were interested in their students and in each other. It was at a university so I didn't have to deal with half of the administrative bs imposed on public schools. The atmosphere was collegial even during crunch time. The standard was not merely effectiveness but excellence, and generously delivered. Arne Duncan would have been laughed out of the building. I don't know how you all do it, really. In that environment, it's no wonder that the retention rate for new teachers is so low. You all deserve combat pay except no one can really pay you for that.

[walldude]

59. Welcome to DU...

It's tough sometimes, but you will find there is much support for teachers here, it's just not a LOUD.

My analogy for teachers is they are given a race car with no wheels and asked to win the Indy 500 and then they are berated for not finishing the race. It's beyond stupid. I have 3 kids in public school all three have had almost all good teachers with a couple of exceptions. 90% good teachers. That's a damn good ratio if you ask me.

[Winterblues]

63. They don't need all you ignorant outsiders

Hmmm isn't eliminating ignorance part of a teachers job? America is a pretty ignorant nation in many ways..

[woo me with science]

65. Wow.

What a stellar example of disrespect coming from the opposite direction.

[uncommon]

67. +1

[EFerrari]

87. Tone matching. Sometimes you have to talk to people

in a way they recognize from their own behavior.

[woo me with science]

89. Nice broad brush. nt

[EFerrari]

93. I use the one that seems most appropriate. n/t

[woo me with science]

100. And you are wrong.

The OP's post speaks for itself. Anyone who isn't a teacher is not qualified to discuss this issue?

This attitude is part of the problem.

[EFerrari]

167. No, tone matching works pretty well to jog people out of their comfort zone.

And your paraphrase of the OP is similarly off the mark.

[woo me with science]

169. Matching whose tone?

Everybody who isn't a teacher? Because that's whom the OP told to shut up.

How would YOU paraphrase the OP?

[certainot]

71. it starts at your local right wing radio stations, where for 20 years

limbaugh and hannity and the local blowhards have been lying about and attacking public ed and teachers as part of the right's ongoing think tank-coordinated attempts to privatize and take over the school system. those radio stations need to be picketed and their local sponsors need to be asked WTF on most issues the left wants to address. those radio stations are the backbone of the GOP and are where the lies and myths are created and taken mainstream.

[Dappleganger]

114. You're right about that...

it's the anti-government, anti-union, anti-teacher, anti-public school, anti-welfare, anti-poor attitudes which have trickled into so many other areas.

[certainot]

194. trickle down, making us pee-ons

[philly_bob]

84. All you need is training in advanced business management techniques, right?

[MadHound]

91. And sadly, we see that fully on display here.

Know what they say, if you can read this, thank a teacher.

[w8liftinglady]

92. my friend is a teacher of 5th grade "problem children"

He says so many of them are starved for attention...any attention.they can't be judged by a "standard".A successful day is getting them to sit for the majority of the day.He shows them unconditional respect,and...oddly enough...when given time,they show it back.They can't be judged by a generic list.I respect him so much.

[Dappleganger]

112. Those teachers are saints...

and I have a friend in Virginia who teaches (or tries to) severely disabled children. Somehow she has to teach the SOL's to them each year when most of them are diapered and can't even write their names. But she has been doing this for years and won't give up on those kids. She does so much for them, spends her own money on them, etc. There are thousands and thousands of teachers out there like her and they are also disrespected by parents on a weekly basis. She teaches for the children as she knows it's not their fault that their parents are jerks without any social constraints.

[SlipperySlope]

95. Nobody deserves respect based solely on their job title.

No teacher deserves automatic respect simply for being a teacher.

No doctor deserves automatic respect simply for being a doctor.
No police officer deserves automatic respect simply for being a police officer.

Respect is earned, it never comes with the job title.

[Catshrink]

97. And no one deserves to be vilified for a job title either.

[woo me with science]

117. What does that have to do with what the OP wrote?

The OP made a ludicrous and frankly hostile suggestion that ONLY teachers are qualified to discuss this issue. Apparently anyone else who dares to offer an idea about education is an ignorant interloper who should just keep his or her mouth shut.

Newsflash: EVERY American has a stake in what happens in our classrooms.

Frankly, I haven't seen much blanket vilification of teachers here. I have seen many more thoughtful posts suggesting that we consider a multitude of new ways to improve education and teaching. Some of these have even come from teachers.

Unfortunately, a few here repeatedly attempt to mischaracterize ANY attempt at discussion of new ideas as a blanket "vilification" of teachers.

People who are actually reading the posts find that ridiculous.

[Catshrink]

128. Apparently you haven't been reading much then.

[woo me with science]

129. Actually, I read all the education threads,

Can you show me all these many posts in which teachers suffer blanket vilification?

I see people saying that some teachers are bad. I also see people talking about underperforming students, or students who are not making adequate progress, and suggesting that changes in teaching might allow them to be reached. Stating that these problems exist is not the same thing as saying that ALL teachers are bad, or even most of them.

By contrast, the OP here is stating that NOBODY who is not a teacher is qualified to speak on this subject at all. Now that is a broad brush, and it is insulting.

Do you agree with the OP?

[Catshrink]

133. Here's a start...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=9048037&mesg_id=9050340

[woo me with science]

153. One post.

By someone with 11 posts at DU. Where are all the other examples?

FWIW, I can easily and quickly link multiple posts from non-teachers who are not vilifying anyone, but rather discussing problems in student achievement and possible strategies for solving them.

Take a look (and this is just one thread!...I can recall many other good discussions along these lines...):

http://upload.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=9048260&mesg_id=9048260


http://upload.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x9048260#9048276

http://upload.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x9048260#9048278

http://upload.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x9048260#9049059

http://upload.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x9048260#9050181

http://upload.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x9048260#9057043

http://upload.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x9048260#9048660

http://upload.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x9048260#9051115

http://upload.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x9048260#9048830

http://upload.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x9048260#9049118

http://upload.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x9048260#9057091

http://upload.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x9048260#9057011


Bottom line: The OP is the one broad brushing here, by claiming that criticism (noun: the act of passing judgment as to the merits of something) of the status quo in education by anyone other than a teacher is by definition destructive and not potentially constructive. That's just nonsense. It's insulting, to boot, and that is why this thread received the condemnation you see.

If you are truly concerned about the broad brush, you should be as offended by the OP as many in this thread. Surely you don't agree that all the posters linked above are ignorant interlopers who should just shut up?

[EFerrari]

99. So, your default is to disrepect people until they earn your respect?

Isn't that pretty much the definition of "anti-social"?

[RandomThoughts]

103. Great comment.

Really great comment.

I am so social, I disrespect the anti-socials, they don't know what being social is.

It is about opposites, and each side thinks they are right and the other is wrong.


Me, shrug, doesn't really matter.


But I know I am due financing for beer and travel, don't need to judge other people to know that.



Bill Joel
Always a Women to me.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zkfkJCyqCBc


What I get will be free, not going to buy it by brownnosing. I don't buy or sell.

[MadHound]

101. So do you automatically give crap to a cop when he pulls you over?

No, I didn't think so.

Then why do you automatically give crap to teachers?

[Starbucks Anarchist]

104. A teacher can't arrest or shoot you as part of their job description.

[MadHound]

105. True that,

So now you must carry a gun to get respect? One would think that you would give teachers and other such professionals a modicum of respect out of common courtesy. Which, like common sense, isn't so common anymore.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

109. No, the respect towards the cop is a forced one, at least for me.

It has no basis in true feelings.

But respect (REAL respect) is earned, and that goes for everybody. Simply being a teacher -- while it is an admirable job -- does not entitle them to never be questioned or criticized.

That doesn't mean that everyone must be disrespected until they earn respect, obviously, but it does mean that nobody is above any and all criticism.

[Dappleganger]

108. I disagree.

Everyone deserves common respect until they have proven they don't deserve it.

That's one of the reasons why our society has broken down so much, the common decencies which used to be there have been thrown away.

[hack89]

230. But disrespect is quickly becoming defined as

"they disagree with me." You can treat people with courtesy
but that doesn't mean you can't disagree with them. Many are quick to define disagreement as a personal attack.

[emilyg]

212. Good point.

[Cal33]

115. Teachers and students.

"I dare any one of you naysayers to actually get in front of a classroom of 30 fifteen year olds and see if they don't tear you apart." You are correct. Beginning something like 50-odd years ago, quite a few
teachers have been actually afraid of some of their students -- especially the older kids in highschools. But this was something that rarely happened in other countries, where students wouldn't dare think of threatening
their teachers with physical violence. They would have been immediately thrown out of school. I wouldn't dream of becoming a teacher over here.

[Barack2theFuture]

121. Public education is no longer about teaching

or education


or the public

[Catshrink]

137. So what did I just do today if not teach?

Another non-teacher who hasn't been inside a classroom in years making broad statements about what teachers do?

[Barack2theFuture]

140. inside the classroom, it's still teachers and students. I teach too.

but the political issue is about an entirely different agenda.

[ecstatic]

123. I have great respect for good/great teachers

What I don't respect is when teachers get on here and say, "Oh... those kids can't learn, because they are too poor, etc, etc... So just give us our raises and don't question us about the students who are not being taught!"

[Catshrink]

134. Who has said that?

I've never seen a teacher say a child can't learn. I have seen teachers write that some students have more challenges and need more resources - that isn't the same thing.

As for raises? What is that? I've had steady salary cuts the past 3 years.

Again, a teacher-basher making shit up.

[Dappleganger]

202. Exactly.

What is ridiculous is when these claims are just made up with no PROOF, then others jump onto the bandwagon and begin spouting off the same lies (once again, with NO PROOF).

[Joe Bacon]

240. I have

I have seen an 8th grade math teacher say precisely that. The same teacher who called a student "Dummy, stupid, moron". The same teacher who made fun of that student every day in the class. The same teacher who tore the student to pieces every chance he could.

Oh, and it was the union president of the school district.

It did everything possible to tear that kid down, yet that kid still graduated and got an MA even as he struggled with the scarring that thing did.

That student was me.

[etherealtruth]

135. Unfortunately, those posters do their profession a great disservice

Even sadder is that they are the most prolific posters on the subject.

[liberation]

216. Isn't that the whistle tone for "uppity?"

wink, wink.

[etherealtruth]

232. I think its a fairly straight forward example of an unfortunate ...

... default representation.

If you read through the current threads discussing this, many here are expressing concerns about the impression folk from outside of the teaching profession are getting from a few posters. it is not a positive one. Most here support teachers but do not support some of the more prolific poster's viewpoints.

If my profession were being so poorly represented I would be alarmed.

[RandomThoughts]

136. I discovered many would not learn.

Maybe it is from blockers, maybe filters, maybe choice.

Maybe even censorship.


But when someone calls learning conforming to wrong, then they are not my teachers.

And anything wrong is the same as any other situation that is wrong.

So no effect matters that is not what is acceptable.

And this Internet, the movie and even songs is not what I require, however I do not fault those that give what they have, and do find many marvels and good things in them.


I fault those that do not give what they have. And they will pay.

[soleiri]

179. Raises?

WTH? I haven't heard a teacher talking about raises in forever. They are just trying to keep their jobs and provide a (keyword) meaningful education for their students.
In fact, most teachers I know are against merit pay (regardless of whether or not they would benefit).

What teachers want is to look at the totality of the student's life and take that into consideration before you demonize the whole teaching profession.

[Dappleganger]

201. Link to what you claim.

Or you just pulled it out of thin air. I have never, ever seen *anyone* make that claim on here.

[Sparkly]

138. I'm with you.

I think people consider themselves experts because they've had some contact with schools and teachers -- simply by having been a student, and often as parents, as well.

They really don't have any idea what's involved.

I read sometime back that the very most stressful jobs are those that require managing a group of people at once. Hello?!?

Teachers have THE most important jobs in the country, second only to parents, as far as I'm concerned. Put daycare providers in there, too. Yet these are the jobs that are paid from $0 to $hardly anything to $not even close to what they're worth.

[zoehenry]

141. teachers

Having taught high school and college, I agree 100% with your post..wonderful

[Smarmie Doofus]

143. velcome to zeh DU.

I agree with him, too.

[nadinbrzezinski]

144. Welcome to our at times dysfunctional family

:hi:

[Livluvgrow]

145. unreal

Alot of people on here have really disappointed me lately. I thought Democrats were supposed to support labor and the middle class. I guess I was wrong. What many of you don't get about the complaining is that we shouldn't have to constantly worry about our jobs all do to a student here and a student there that could just care less. With many of these bogus schemes being laid upon us we could be fired because Johnny decided to christmas tree his test. We cant beat sense into him and make him take the test properly so bam we get fired. Then we come on here where we should recieve the most support and bam dumped on again. I for one won't be voting this election cycle partly do to the attitudes right here. Some of you people run your mouths so much that you are running voters away in droves and you are so self righteous that you dont even get it. Democrats who dont support labor and unions and middle class puhleeze.

[Smarmie Doofus]

148. Welcome and here's a chill pill:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x9045200

Most DUers are on your side. There's some panic from the "school reform" fans here 'cause the LEADER has committed to it and the LEADER is....shall we say... lightly experienced in this area.

[nadinbrzezinski]

151. I come from a UNION household

Now if you do not understand why I said dysfunctional, perhaps you should take a chill pill and read what Will Rogers used to say. "I am not a member of an organized party, I am a democrat."

Oh and since I am in the process of WRITING a history of American labor starting oh, about 1600... I could lecture a few on the subject.

SHeesh.

[Gidney N Cloyd]

152. Please tell me that you teach math. nt

[Dappleganger]

203. +10000

And welcome to DU! I agree with what you wrote 100%.

[dkf]

146. It is hard. That is why not everyone is suited to it.

I just read a study that a majority of kids who dropped out found school boring. I admit that I found school unengaging until I got to college and I'm just glad I suffered through the boredom to get to the good stuff.

Teachers who know how difficult it is to engage students while keeping a disciplined classroom should be the first to acknowledge some are not good enough to hack it. If you can establish that excellence and keep teaching for the best candidates, that is when salaries should go up. But as long as we must keep those who are not suited for teaching in the profession, the grades alone will not justify excellent pay.

[msanthrope]

150. I wouldn't conflate lack of respect for teachers with lack of respect for certain posters here.

The problem on DU is that the education threads by and large tend to not stimulate much teacher support or respect because they generally aren't posted for that purpose.

My suggestion to you, and to every single teacher on this board serious about garnering broad Democratic support is to consider carefully what is posted, and by whom.

And I say that, having taught at a charter for children adjudicated into care. I found law school less stressful, but I reject the notion that ONLY teachers know what's going on in education. That's tribalism, and it's not good for any profession.

[woo me with science]

154. +1 nt

[etherealtruth]

158. Excellent advice

Sadly, it will likely be ignored.

It is unfortunate that many do not realize what a disservice these posts are doing to hard working professionals in a very honorable profession.

[DailyGrind51]

233. Having adopted teaching after nearly 3 decades in another career, I agree with you!

Teaching is a very difficult occupation, but so are many others for different reasons.

[RobinA]

155. I Don't Think

it's disrespect so much as it is some of us are tired of hearing at every turn how lousy teachers have it when there are plenty of people out here who have it just a lousy for half the pay. I'm tripping over roaches in my basement office for $42,000 a year trying to pay off grad school, and I come across a post like this every other day on DU. I don't disrespect you, I just wish you all would stop complaining like you are the only profession that has crappy conditions.

[TexasObserver]

157. With friends like you, teachers don't need enemies.

Contrary to your opinion, the public hires teachers and defines what they do for each district. Teaching is not done by divine right. Someone has to hire them, and that someone tells them how they will conduct their teaching.

Everyone here has as much to say about public education as any teacher. Just because one teaches does not make them the arbiter of what is good and appropriate in the class room.

Your comments are out of line and teachers who exhibit the attitude you exhibit are a reason teachers often offend those who control their jobs. You're an employee who doesn't like being questioned. Everyone with a job has to take orders from their bosses, and teachers are no different, but their bosses include the voters.

[zbdent]

162. Teaching is probably the only "industry" where you take a bunch of parts

(some high quality, some average, some really pieces of crap)

and put together a "product" ...

and the failure of some of the parts of the "product", no matter what "manufacturing" did to the part up to the point where the teacher put it into the "final product", is solely blamed on the teacher.

[DatManFromNawlins]

210. You obviously aren't a software developer

Teachers have it easy comparatively.

[salin]

163. I've been in the field for decades... and you don't speak for me.

certainly many of your points are valid - long division doesn't just make sense magically and quickly.

But the condescending tone of the post, does not reflect me.

I have learned to control crowds of 200+ without a loud voice but gestures.

I have spent countless months of hours (across the career) trying to figure out why student x has a challenge learning long division and if there is a common challenge with students y, z and q I run some extra hours sessions with those students; extends my day for a number of days - but saves a lot of time across the year if the students clear up confusion early and don't carry it on across new content.

I have found parents to be allies more often than combatants, because I call regularly (esp when there is a behavioral or academic issue) and affirm my belief in what their child *could* do and how we need to join forces (be it to make sure the child is doing homework to reinforce new skills, or train better focus in class when there are other distractions.

Shutting people out with superior attitudes per "you know ABSOLUTELY FUCKING NOTHING" has never helped me reach a single student. It has never helped me get a class of students who came in below grade level to all reach proficiency.

I understand venting your frustration (and I DO understand the frustration, have lived it for years). But as an urban educator who works with schools with high majority proportions of high poverty and high minority populations, you don't speak for me. Indeed my career would have been much less successful over the decades had I projected such a hostile and superior attitude toward those outside of the field.

[TexasObserver]

166. Now that's the kind of teacher who makes us all proud.

[woo me with science]

170. There are several excellent teachers here who speak up occasionally

when they get sick of how they are represented by a vocal few.

Thank you for speaking up, too.

[Radical Activist]

178. Thanks for this post.

I hope those few posters with the most condescending, insecure, hostile attitudes aren't really teachers. I would hate to think they carry that attitude into the classroom with their students.

[Whisp]

184. man, I wish I had about a dozen of you for my teachers...

thank you so much for what you do so very well. You are precious.

[AtomicKitten]

186. Interesting. Thanks for your post.

My sister is a teacher and now principal of a K-12 school in So Cal, and my two children weathered a system in which my daughter thrived and my son fell through the cracks. Our schools are failing too many children and reform is the natural consequence. I believe young minds should come first, teacher unions second; not a popular opinion here at DU. I am intrigued by your progressive view on this subject and am delighted to read it here on DU.

Cheers.

[Number23]

234. I've just added you to the list of DU teachers (current or former) whose opinion on this subject

matters one whit to me.

Including poster Fire1 (also a public school teacher in an urban environment) the number has now grown to... 2.

If your post is any indication, your students were so damn fortunate to have you as a teacher.

[salin]

238. "were... fortunate"... let's hope they still are (and were) fortunate

been doing this for awhile - but am under fifty and hope that I have the fire to keep going for awhile longer... and hope that my former students were fortunate, that my current students are, and that my future students will be. I can not speak to whether or not they have been/are/ or will be fortunate, but I work like heck to try to make that the be the case on a daily basis. Thank you for the comp.

[DailyGrind51]

237. Thank you! We must always remember that are salaries are paid by the residents of the communities

we serve, some of these residents may be unemployed or under-employed. "We" (and I include myself since I am a certified teacher, but not working in that capacity for my district) owe the citizens of our communities the respect and consideration they are due.

[Lifelong Protester]

171. Wow, I must have a lot of folks on 'ignore' or too many posts

have been deleted, because try as I might, I cannot follow the arguments (!).

Richard Allington is a researcher in the field of reading, and wrote: "All of the research on reading for the last 50 years can be summed up in four words: kids differ, teachers matter."

Understanding that, (and understanding that if we don't all get behind true solutions to the problems of society as a whole, education specifically) boils things down to an elegant essence.

Smaller schools.
Smaller classes.
Attention to mentoring young teachers, removing bad ones, assisting in any way you can the good ones.
Community schools, schools as community.
Mutual respect, parents and teachers and kids.
Pursuit of excellence.
Personal responsibility for bettering ourselves in the profession.
Understanding at our core why we went into the profession.
Knowing that 'rich' has many definitions.
Love of the profession.

[Lifelong Protester]

173. I'm laughing at myself here. I'm the last poster on so many threads!

Story of my life. By the time I get to the party, the lights are being turned out (!).

[Whisp]

181. I had the misfortune of not having great teachers.

but thats me and it was a long time ago, others have had wonderful teachers.

overall I think they work hard and have an enormously difficult job to do.

what has kind of altered my thinking a bit is the false information some teachers here post about education reform, etc. I would swear they were my old teachers! stubborn, unwilling to admit they are wrong, more about them than the students, etc., etc., but no way they'd still be alive.

:)

[LWolf]

198. Interestingly, I've never said that I've had the "misfortune"

of not having great students.

[msanthrope]

221. And a good teacher wouldn't say that about minor children they have power over.

A good teacher would understand the power differential and recognize that it would be completely inappropriate for them to do so.

A student, however, is a minor, and should be encouraged to objectively look at authority.

[uncommon]

223. Yeah - a good teacher would be super human and never have a normal human reaction to mistreatment

by student.

What bs.

[msanthrope]

224. I didn't write 'feel.' I wrote 'say.' A normal human feels quite

a bit they don't articulate, because it isn't appropriate to do so.

[LWolf]

242. I think the golden rule ought to be universal, myself. An all-way street. nt

[DailyGrind51]

188. Our hands are tied regarding discipline for maintaining classroom management, also!

My elementary education was in the 1950s when the proverbial gloves were off and students knew what that implied, Administrators supported it, and parents reinforced it at home, thereby creating a classroom environment for substantive learning.

[seabeyond]

189. i had fine teachers growing up, but i was receptive to learning. kids have fine teachers now

but then they are receptive to learning

i agree with you.

[Swamp Rat]

193. k&r

[LWolf]

195. I notice a huge disconnect between propaganda and reality.

I hear, and read at DU, people attacking teachers as incompetent EVERY DAY. Yet, at my school, and in my classroom, I see a different story altogether.

School doesn't start until next week, but I've had two dozen students and some of their parents stop by this week to help set up. Some of them are current students, some of them former students who've moved on, and they all come in with fresh faces, energy, stories about their summer, questions and suggestions about the coming year, and hugs, fist-bumps, etc..

It doesn't seem that they, or their parents, think we are incompetent, or that their experiences with us have been bad.

[Smarmie Doofus]

199. Me too neither.

And I'd say I probably spend LESS time and energy on outreach than my average colleague. I can't figure out where all these outraged parents are hiding. Most of them seem to actually , gulp, LIKE me. ("They really like me!!!")


>>>>>t doesn't seem that they, or their parents, think we are incompetent, or that their experiences with us have been bad.>>>>>


Perhaps the IDEA of the outraged, underserved, student/parent serves the purposes of an agenda.

Hmmm......

[LWolf]

200. Yes.

An unfriendly agenda. :grr:

[liberation]

219. There is a lot of "revenge" feeling from people who were academic failures.

Some people have a weird chip in their shoulder regarding educators, it could not possibly be that they were mediocre students with a bad attitude, it must have been their "bad luck" of encountering bad teachers on every single grade they took and a system which could not possibly cope with their greatness. Most of us call that teenage angst, hell I have had my share of bad teachers or those bad mood inducing cold mornings en route to school for a test which I have been stressing over and thinking "what is the point of such and such, it is soooo stooopid." But at some point, some of us manage to grow up. We go on to college, and at some point when we hit grad school, we finally understand the value of learning/knowledge. And when some of us have to actually teach other people, then it hits us how fucking hard it is.

Now, there are good teachers and bad teachers. Just like any profession. But the whole expectation that the success or failure of an educational system depends solely on the teachers and the teachers alone is magnificently stupid and shortsighted. We're a nation of petulant impatient kids. Rather than realizing is a socially systemic issue, we want the quick fix, in pill form if possible. And thus we think that putting teachers under fire is going to be the correct approach. We also lack basic empathy as a nation, so a lot of people can't fully grasp that it takes a fucking village to raise a kid, not just a bunch of underpaid slaves who have to cater to every single whim of children who are raised by parents how are kids themselves basically. And rather than fully take part of the blame in the failure as a society, we simply want to point at a collective and be done with it.

So the attitudes you see are basically the "new" Democrats, who used to be former republicans for the most part (heck I think in the past few months/years even a bit of a libertarian contingent has made it to this site), with their attitude of shoveling "personal responsibility" down other people's throats. And a lot of it has to do with what I said earlier, there is this weird... almost borderline psychotic sense of revenge when it comes to educators. A lot of people in this country honestly, never matured past 10th grade... and they will forever be stuck in that mindset.

[YvonneCa]

229. I think you may be right. n/t

[Whisp]

235. I did quite okay despite mediocre teachers.

Calling people here 'stupid' who disagree with the loud disruptors here is pretty well what your group does. And you expect respect and a cheering section for that pathetic behaviour?

sure.
R.E.S.P.E.C.T.
I'm humming Aretha Franklin right now for you.

:*

[LWolf]

243. All good points. nt

[Starry Messenger]

246. Thank you.

+ a million.

[Whisp]

231. true, I'm, pretty sure Obama and Arne are Not planning to

destroy education in America (although it doesnt have far to fall compared to other countries US ed is pretty shabby overall) and suck the blood out of students and sell it on the black market for their personal gain. Some education reform posts by some teachers here seem close to thinking that and are so clouded with rage they can't even read their own sources correctly.

As long as it 'sounds' like its blaming Obama and Arne for everything, then thats good enough to post then the same responses from the same regulars cheer each others hate on to ridiculous heights.

I am very glad to hear other teachers oppose and speak against these questionable tactics, tho. Cheers to the ones who don't froth.

[AllyCat]

205. Agreed! Why teachers are the scapegoat for EVERYTHING makes me nuts

Even people who consider themselves "progressives" spout the memes we hear in the media day in and day out. It's a tough job. Have some bleedin' respect and maybe parents should actually take an interest in their kids' schooling instead of looking at school as "free daycare".

[perdita9]

209. Want to Make a Teacher's Job Easier?

Scare the heck out of your kid. My son knows that, if he gets in trouble at school, he'd in trouble again when he gets home.

He knows that my husband and I have a great deal of respect for the jobs teachers are doing and he's in for a world of hurt if he disrespects one of them.

My son knows he's in big trouble if he doesn't do his homework.

Our reward for this? Most teachers like my son. They describe him as respectful and easy to teach.

[Quantess]

249. That probably works great for most teachers.

However, that wasn't my style.
My major failure as a high school teacher was in the crowd-control department. I have a masters degree in speech pathology, but nobody prepared me for an unwieldy group of teenagers, half of whom did not need speech pathology services.

[NJmaverick]

211. Seems pretty clear from the "you have no idea what you are talking about..."

the lack of respect is coming from the teachers.

[Plucketeer]

218. I applaud EVERY word you've written!

My wife is a teacher and has been for 30+ years. Her "reward" for this career? The state is trying to "revise" the retirement system she's been paying into for 25 years!
You know - it JUST NOW dawned on me, what she's up against! Part of the agreement of her participating in this retirement program was/is that she's not a participant in Social Security. What she would have paid into SS was diverterd to this state-run system (Calif). So when this retirement scheme is plundered (and it looks like it WILL be plundered) to ease other state debt, she's got NO SS to fall back on. That's truly scary. And HERE is what could happen if some of the idiots proposing the end of SS as we know it, were to have their way. If you were paying into a "personal" retirement scheme, you could have it washed away, like a sand castle on a storm-washed beach. Ta-Ta!

Well, back to the focus of the OP..... To think that every kid is some equally malleable chunk of clay is just nuts. I guess we could assume that no one from our educational systems should settle for less than a career that delivers 6 (or 7)-figure salaries! Right! There'll BE no one to flip burgers or do oil changes, because we'll all be doing brain surgery, banking or designing inter-planetary craft. Geez - we'll have to turn the border fences into turnstyles so's we have enough folks FOR those lesser jobs.
I can see it now - "Lesser jobs for lesser people" - the welcoming sign above said gateways to the north!

There's one lesson lacking in our public schools. It's that that there are consequences for one's actions or inactions. And without that lesson early on, most of the classic themes of learning offer nothing in the way of inspiration. Those key "consequences" are taught at home, if at all. And parents are getting Fs in this task. Big, fat Fs.
The schools can no longer teach that rule the way they used to. Now when a kid's a troublemaker (or just listless), they're coddled and pitied. Must be the danged teacher's fault that these kids aren't motivated! After all, they have the kids under their influence for a whole 45 mintes, five days a week!

Not like anyone's listened to anything I've said about this all along, but as long as there's more parents to vote than faculty - who are legislators gonna point "the finger" at???

[peopleb4money]

239. People can be some ignorant ass, winey bitches some time.

I respect teachers. Granted, not all teachers are good, but what people need to realize is that not all teachers are abd either. People think going to a charter school system and getting rid of teacher's unions will solve everything. Nah, what we'll get is a majority of lower class children not getting any education at all and having to work. Basically, well get the 19th century... the good ol days. Teachers and parents should be allied with each other. Too many wanna point the finger at other people and not turn it on their selves though.

[Canuckistanian]

241. Kick

[AllTooEasy]

244. Not all teachers are the same; every teacher I know says that.

Some deserve praise and respect and some don't. PERIOD. I have 8 friends who are grade school and high school teachers. They each tell me about heros in their profession and the bums. No generalizations here.

[bbdad]

250. Speaking as the father of a high-school math teacher ...

... who has just started her second year of teaching, I can tell you right now that more than a few of the students misbehave constantly; and the reason why that is true is (since they have so many "rights") nothing can touch them. Looking at test papers, I've seen that some students don't even try to do the work. My daughter knows how to teach, and she loves kids. But she can't force them to learn if they don't care.

[JNelson6563]

251. Some are awesome, some are OK, some suck

Just like all the other mere mortals. It's a shame they are, as a whole, underappreciated. I don't see them all as saints though, as some on DU seem to insist. My kids had a couple/few that have no business near children, they had others that should get a million $ a year.

Julie

[zanana1]

252. AMEN!

I taught Jr. High for four years. I don't know how I did it and I'm surprised I didn't run screaming from the place.