Will passing the Simpson/Bowles “Theft Commission” Bill Create a 2nd Great Depression?

[Faryn Balyncd]

We’ve gotten so used to industry lobbyists writing bills that we no longer think it unusual for an un-elected group packed with announced enemies of SS literally writing a bill in secret which will be voted on by a lame duck Congress without opportunity for amendment or modification.

But will ramming through(under special rules preventing modification) the draconian cuts of the Simpson/Bowles bill (not a word of which will have been crafted by a democratically elected body) by the lame duck Congress before Jan 11, 2011, literally plunge the US into a 2nd great depression?

What is the logic in a http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Total_Wall_Street_Bailout_Cost ">$4-13 trillion bailout of Wall Street, if it is followed by slashing billions in Social Security benefits to those whose payroll & SE contributions have created a $2.5 trillion surplus? And all because the right wing wants to default on the Treasury bonds in the SS Trust Fund (but not the $4 trillion in bonds held by Chinese , Saudi and other foreign bondholders, and certainly not on the Treasury bonds held in their own portfolios)?

And what is the logic in borrowing $1.156 trillion for a fiscal stimulus, and then slashing the SS payouts to those who have earned & paid for these benefits?





Just exactly how do the fiscal policies of both Hoover & Keynes work when used simultaneously?





The economic damages from the recession have been estimated at $2.7 trillion.

Would passing the austerity measures which will come out of the Simpson/Bowles commission threaten a second great depression?

Is there any economic benefit that will accrue to the United States for participating in the immoral theft of SS Trust fund, so that the richest 1-2% will not have to pay, God forbid, middle class tax rates?






:kick:

[Fumesucker]

1. In your first sentence I think you meant "unusual" rather than "usual"..

Recced BTW...

[Faryn Balyncd]

3. Thanks.

edited for typo

[Donnachaidh]

2. k&r

Seems the swarm is working early.

[Blue Meany]

4. The logic is obvious: it continues the transfer of wealth upward n/t

[area51]

5. We've been in the 2nd Great Depression since '01. n/t

[Fumesucker]

6. Attack of the phantom unreccers..

Wow, this one gores a few sacred oxen, eh?

:rofl:

[izzybeans]

7. Where's the bill? Thanks.

[Fumesucker]

8. The period between "too early to complain about legislation" to "too late to do anything"

Has gotten to about negative three weeks these days..

[izzybeans]

13. Each meeting of the commission is archived on the commission website.

I've started watching them for hints of a direction. I've only finished the first of four (or five?). Thus far I'd say that most of the talk is about our tax system and health care cost containment. For instance Max Baucus' opening statement included that the amount of taxes we failed to collect in 2001 (the last time this number was estimated) was half of the current budget deficit. Imagine how big that tax loss is today.

Right now I'd be concerned about potential changes in the tax code. Several of the expert testimonials suggested we had one of the more regressive systems in the industrialized world and that it was undermining our competitiveness. However, that was just a slim majority of the people I heard speak. In other words, they were talking about increasing marginal tax rates on high income individuals. There are of course a handful of folks making veiled comments about social security, but this wasn't the biggest area of concern of hte commission and the majority of comments I heard in that opening meeting were supportive of the system and thought it would be simple to keep it solid for as far as they could forecast with simple tax code changes.

I recommend watching these videos. They may be the only window we get into what goes on.

They are long, but important, and freely available. The question I have is whether this final report gets published in time for a thorough reading by the public. If not then the window between too early and too late will be totally closed.

[Fumesucker]

15. Eh, most of the lawmakers won't even read it..

I honestly have neither the time nor the patience to sit through a bunch of videos although I appreciate your thoughtfulness in telling us about them and also giving you interpretation of what you have watched yourself.

The problem as I see it is that the politicians are not trustworthy, not that they ever really have been but things seem to be sliding rapidly downhill these days in terms of the responsiveness of our political system to the concerns of average normal citizens.

[izzybeans]

16. True about most politicians - however, it's helpful to attack on

substance and move on it when possible. There are some useful things in this thread - but it doesn't provide any information about the substance of the commission. It's an if, then statement - which is fine for hypotheses, but a poor basis for political action. Hence why I want to take my time and dig through the concrete before engaging on this. My original question was just a shovel.

[Faryn Balyncd]

10. It is being crafted by professed opponents of SS in complete darkness.

[Faryn Balyncd]

11. It appears tnot one word will be exposed to sunlight until AFTER the election -- then no amendment,

.....lame duck vote.

[Blue Meany]

12. Yeah, and private rating agencies are saying they will downgrade

federal bond ratings if they don't pass the suggestion of this commissio

[Radical Activist]

9. Will it revive the unicorn population?

As long as we're engaging in complete speculation we might as well ask everything.

[dionysus]

26. !

:rofl:

[Radical Activist]

31. I know it's not cool to laugh at your own jokes

but I crack up every time I look back at this.

[Hardrada]

29. Dirty White Guardist Counter-revolutionary saboteur!

What is your filthy agenda anyway?

[Radical Activist]

30. Wow. Over-dramatic much?

[Name removed]

37. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[BrklynLiberal]

14. WOW! The un-wrecking crew is out in full strength today..

Thanks for this post.

[TBF]

21. Yes, anything that sheds light on what the administration

is actually doing is unrecommended very quickly. I agree with the supporters that he has been a very busy man, problem is he keeps shoveling money to the rich.

[BrklynLiberal]

22. i feel that I have to go to my doctor and get an anti-anxiety prescription.

I get into a state of fear and depression whenever I think about what is going to happen in this country in the next few years.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

17. That is one steep learning curve we have here at DU

I think I can recite these points in my sleep, but just for fun, let's do it all again.

The Commission is advisory only, consists of a majority of Democrats, and all of its hearings are open to the public. There is no Simpson/Bowles bill -- unless you're counting their check from lunch at the Olive Garden -- because neither Simpson nor Bowles are members of Congress at the moment. Nothing that comes out of the Commission carries a requirement that it be voted on by the Senate, and the House has pledged to simply pass a "Sense of the House" resolution that is not binding.

This is political theater and nothing of any consequence going on here -- other than a lot of fund-raising by both liberal and conservative organizations. People have been circulating on-line petitions demanding that the Obama Administration pre-emptively disband the Commission when, in fact, the Commission hasn't even released any recommendations.

And by the way, the links you included don't reference the work of the Commission on any level.

[Jim Sagle]

33. Catfood Jeff makes his usual helpful appearance.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

41. You do realize....

That in addition to having no power to make changes -- the first sentence of the Commission's mission statement explicitly states that it's advisory ONLY -- the Commission has also not made any actual recommendations?

Do you also realize that Social Security is massively popular with voters? Majorities of Democrats, Independents and even Republicans oppose cuts to Social Security and Medicare. Republicans would have to be jaw-droppingly stupid to recommend cuts. If Simpson opens his mouth on the subject, watch for the elected Republicans on the Commission to run for the exists.

You're getting yourself worked up over nothing.

[eridani]

35. With the exception of Schakowsky and Durbin, the Dems are every bit as bad as the Repukes

and the real dealing is most assuredly not open to the public. What does it take to get the resident pollyannas to realize that we are totally fucked if we wait on organizing until we hear the recommendations?

[Larry Ogg]

49. In other words...

The administration created a grandiose facade with the pretense of staving off something that is designed to bankrupt the government and the governed, while paying a bunch of unofficial cronies big bucks to look like their fixing something that can't be fixed. And as the inevitable success of our bipartisan Ponzi scheme, monetary, economic system transfers all the wealth from the working class debt slave majority to the predator class minority, we the sheepeople can pat ourselves on the back for always being there to vote for the lessor evil while blaming those other guys for all our problems...

[Better Believe It]

18. And don't forget the big cuts in Medicare and Medicaid that will be proposed.

More health care "reform" on the way!

[bullwinkle428]

19. I know one industry that should thrive during the next depression...

[Larry Ogg]

50. Your being way too optimistic...

It's more likely that the cats themselves will be one of the favorite gourmet feasty treats being served up in the growing neo-hunter gatherer population of a once to proud, naive nation of sports fans...

[Mimosa]

20. Interesting questions. Something fishy is going on. n/t

[lib2DaBone]

23. Well said.. K/R .. I think they are going to do it because they can....

By that I mean.. if they try to stiff China for a few trillion dollars in Bonds... China might get pissed and stick a nuke up their A_ _. China won't play that game.

But if they stiff the American people and renege on the bonds in Social Security.. it will be 6 months to a year before anyone even figures out what they have done.

And even if they do get caught "red-handed" stealing Social Security money... Rush Limbaugh and Faux news will run flack for them and convince the public that, "It's in their own best interest not to have Social Security." They will title the bill, "Saving Our Children From The Deficit Act". (or some such name). Then all the CONgress people can go on record as voting FOR saving our children from the deficit, instead of stealing Social Security.

The public will yawn, roll over and go back to sleep.. no problem.

[pattmarty]

38. I think you nailed it.

[BeFree]

40. Exactly

The whole thing has smoke and mirrors hiding the theft of our SS dollars.

For 30 years now the SS problem has weighed heavily on fiscal conservative's minds.
The smoke and mirrors have clouded the problem and made solutions seem out of reach.

Only over the last week has the smoke been cleared, the background has become evident as exemplified in the OP and elsewhere on DU, and the uneducated have become educated.

What a great resource DU can be. Together we have burrowed into this subject and have overcome the bullshit being fed us by crooked politicians.

I applaud you DUers.

[rhett o rick]

24. "Stimulate the economy" is code for just another bubble.

Without growth and production there will be no recovery. Stimulation just creates a new bubble that temporarily looks good. But if we dont fix the causes we cant get out of this mess. Last year we had the highest level of imported products in a quarter century. That means a good share of the stimulus money left the country. This is not sustainable.

Those in power know that recovery isn't possible without a significant amount of pain which would be political suicide, so they will most likely postpone total collapse by creating another bubble and let the future Americans worry about it.

If the Social Security money is channeled into the stock market it would create a huge bubble and things would look great for a while longer.

[eridani]

36. We can't have production unless there are people with money to buy products

The bubble we have to worry about is strictly the financial one created by the banksters.

[pattmarty]

39. I think that was his point. More to yours, expanding on your true.............

..........logical statement about having the money to buy, we need to buy products MADE HERE. That "problem" will take a generation IF we started right now rebuilding our manufacturing sector. Contrary to Reagan & Bush jr, hamburgers ARE NOT manufacturing.

[eridani]

48. Agree completely n/t

[Hubert Flottz]

25. K&R

This will be what brings out the pitchforks.

[placton]

27. Simple answers to Complex Questions:

Yes

Obama and his gang in congress will make sure we have a REAL second Greater Depression - this time with no hope, or any FDR on the horizon.

[chimpymustgo]

28. K&R.

[Zhade]

32. Great post, and important questions.

NT!

[unhappycamper]

34. K&R n/t

[emald]

42. the only answer is REVOLUTION

time to war on the rich. Kidnap simpson, tie him to a post in the arctic. Knock off a few rich and maybe they will get the idea. They have no problem knocking us off. Not at all. Time to repay.

[ozone_man]

43. We've been in a depression for a while now.

And it will be getting much worse even with no cuts in social security. But, cuts would certainly make things worse.

We are at a point where we have to raise taxes on the rich to keep the national debt from getting even more unsustainable. Debt service is quickly becoming the largest part of the budget. Any stimulus plan should be funded by taxing the rich. It's common sense. They can afford it.

[inna]

44. Huge K&R.

[Better Believe It]

45. Kick

[earth mom]

46. Another huge K & R! Time to get busy folks & spread the word-Social Security is NOT broken

but the cat food commission is saying it is and intent on stealing our retirements from us!

Please start spreading the word around-Twitter, Facebook, email, bumper stickers, flyers left on cars and every place you can think of!!!

:kick:

[WillyT]

47. Kick !!!

:applause::applause::applause:

:kick:

:hi: