Cartoon: Street Harassment

[Brickbat]

Nothing to add; the cartoon says it all.

[EmilyKent]

1. Thank you.

That indeed says it all.

[maxsolomon]

50. save yourself heartburn and stop reading now

the discussion below is not edifying.

[wakemewhenitsover]

130. +1, Max

[phasma ex machina]

145. Heartburn comes from eating the wrong food.

:popcorn:

[Chicks With Dickens]

394. Ugh. Maxosolomon, I shoulda listened to you!

[boppers]

532. Thanks for the warning.

And now, I'm going to do something stupid, and read it.

[boppers]

543. I gave up. Too much broad-brush attacking, followed by equal attacks.

I started trying, but it just wasn't worth it. Everybody's an expert on "their" gender, and more than willing to bash their "opposite".

Thankfully, multi-gendered folks seemed to have evaded the crossfire. Or (on edit) got to be slammed from both sides.

edit: see above

[Skittles]

563. poor EOTE

he is such a fucking victim

[demigoddess]

2. oh, honesty in the morning. Love it.

Men just don't get it, do they???

[EstimatedProphet]

4. Some of us do

[Doctor_J]

7. Whoa. Take it easy.

Maybe we need a toon with the first 7 panels showing the 99.99% of us who aren't misogynistic would-be rapists. Then panel 8 would show you getting a wolf whistle and declaring, "Men are such assholes"

[lukasahero]

9. Interesting

A comic of the harassment women face on the streets every day vs a comment by one of those women noting that 'men just don't get it' and your first reaction is to defend men from such a vile comment. Uh-huh.

[demigoddess]

11. I'm saying you don't get how it feels. Long term.

You aren't subject to potential violence just by walking down the street. I used to be young and beautiful and had my fill of it. You never knew when one would turn violent.

[EOTE]

22. We're not?

I'm pretty sure that men are more often the victim of violent attacks on the street than women are. So your argument doesn't hold much water. Regardless, you shouldn't make blanket statements like that. I was attacked "just by walking down the street." It's not a pleasant experience regardless of the gender.

[Lyric]

51. Do you have some kind of statistical basis for that statement?

Because discounting gang violence and/or drug-related violence, I'm pretty sure that women are more often the victim of violent attacks from strangers on the street. Gang violence and drug violence are terrible, and men ARE more often victims of that, but that sort of violence is entirely different from a scenario where a stranger attacks you, entirely unprovoked, either to rob, assault, or rape you.

[EOTE]

67. Somewhat, yes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States#Crime_victimology

"Patterns are found within the victimology of crime in the United States. Overall, the financially disadvantaged, males, those younger than 25 and non European-Americans were more likely to fall victim to crime. Income, sex and age had the most dramatic effect on the chances of a person being victimized by crime, while the characteristic of race depended upon the crime being committed."

"In terms of gender, males were more likely to become crime victims than were females, with 79% percent of all murder victims being male. Males were also twice as likely to be carjacked as were females."

I would think the carjacking statistic speaks the most loudly toward men more often being the victim of random violence as it's rare that a carjacker knows the person whose car he is jacking. I consider carjackings to be fairly random. It seems very likely that most victims of unprovoked violence are men.

[LostinVA]

195. So, you CAN'T back that up

That's what I thought.

[EOTE]

201. So you're incapable of reading?

Just what I thought. Do you have any statistics that negate the facts that I posted? Or is snark your only rhetorical technique?

[LostinVA]

262. No, I read it: it didn't back it up

Even YOU admitted it only sort of did.

[EOTE]

271. It didn't? Please tell me how so.

Women are more likely to be the victim of sexual assault than are men. For every other violent crime, men are more often the victim. But hey, it's only the Department of Justice. We all know they're a bunch of he-man women haters.

This is the reference from that Wiki link I posted.
http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/cv08.pdf


"Characteristics of victims of violent crimes measured by the
NCVS in 2008 were similar to previous years. Males,
blacks, and persons age 24 or younger experienced violent
victimizations at higher or somewhat higher rates than
females, whites, and persons age 25 or older (table 4)."

"Females were more likely than males to be victims of rape
or sexual assault. Males experienced higher rates of victimization
than females in all other violent crimes measured by
the NCVS."

[Lyric]

52. delete--double post

[Brickbat]

70. The thing is, though, the cartoon is not about violent attacks. It's about verbal, gender-based

harassment, and how it feels to hear it all the time, and how it's so easily dismissed, even by an ally.

[EOTE]

73. I am aware of that. And it's disgusting and shameful.

However, the post that I responded to says that men don't know what it's like to walk the streets and have to fear being violently attacked. That's very much not true. In fact, the statistics say that men need to be a good deal more concerned about random street violence than women do.

[Brickbat]

76. Point taken.

I do think there is a difference in the mental attitude one carries when thinking one is going to be harassed vs. one is going to be violently attacked. If you're going to be violently attacked, there are all sorts of things you can do to prevent, deter or repel it. It doesn't work that way with harassment. I don't want to get into one being worse than the other or anything, but I do want to make the point that people generally do not consider what it's like to have a near-constant low-level background hum of harassment going on as you run your lunchtime errands, no matter where you are or what you're doing or wearing.

[Kweli4Real]

102. But EOTE ...

There's a big ... no huge ... difference. Women face the fear of violent attack BECAUSE of their being women; not because of some random violent person.

[EOTE]

200. I don't see your point.

Men are attacked violently more often than women. When I was attacked, the last thing I gave a damn about was the motivations of the attacker.

[ThomCat]

318. That is just it.

Women know, every day, that they might be attacked because they are women. Men don't have to deal with that. They don't have to expect and anticipate it. They don't have to be prepared for it.

Nobody targets men because they are men. Men don't have to think about anyone targeting them because they are men. They don't have to wonder about the motivation of an attack, ever.

But only white men have that privilege. That was the whole point of hate crime legislation. Hate crimes are crimes that target people because of who they are. Crimes that target people have an entirely different dimension to them.

White men have never had to understand this. And you are showing that you clearly have no idea what this means, or what it is like.

Just because you are showing your cluelessness doesn't mean it isn't a hugely important issue.

It means that you have a big gap in what you know that you really should do something about.

[EOTE]

331. Who the fuck cares about motivation?

If you're being beaten to a bloody pulp, do you really care WHY the person is doing this? Wouldn't you rather be less likely to be attacked and know the motivation of the attacker than more likely to be attacked and not know? Your argument is that men have it easier because at least they don't know why they're being attacked? Really? You want to talk about clueless? Wow.

And by the way, I'm all for hate crimes legislation. I think that people should be punished, in part, due to the motivation of their crime. But that doesn't mean that we should live in constant fear of those motivations, things which are not physical.

[ThomCat]

341. Yes, motivation matters.

If someone is attacking me because I'm gay, it matters that they're gay bashing me.

If someone is raping someone because she's a women, it matters that they're targeting her because she's a woman. It matters because it means it's not a random crime.

If someone commits a lynching, would you say that the fact that they're racist is irrelevant?

No lawyer would EVER tell you that motivation is irrelevant.

You are trying to beat this issue that random violence is the only violence that matters. But random violence is RARE compared to violence where people know their victim and target them for a reason!

So dismissing all violence except random violence is nothing short of delusional! Get a damned Life!

[EOTE]

345. So you'd rather be beaten without knowing the motivation.

Than knowing your potential attacker's motives and not be beaten. Makes sense to me.

"If someone commits a lynching, would you say that the fact that they're racist is irrelevant?
No lawyer would EVER tell you that motivation is irrelevant. "

You're having problems reading again. Did you not just read in my previous post that I SUPPORT hate crimes legislation? I just think that it's INCREDIBLY STUPID to think it's better to be more likely attacked for random reasons than less likely to be attacked for sexist reasons. Comprende? Of course not.

And by the way, do you have a source for ANY of the bullshit you're spewing? I've provided info from the DOJ. You've given me nothing but your word which I've already proven to not be all that valuable. You might want to provide something factual if you'd like to continue this.

[ThomCat]

349. WTF?

I'd rather be beaten? What are you talking about?

[EOTE]

355. Reading is tough, isn't it? NT

[BlancheSplanchnik]

535. seems someone's issues are what's for dinner.

He's not responding to you, he's off in something that happened to him, so any conversation on 'victimization' can only be about him. Seems to me, anyway.


well, I know you didn't need me to tell you that, though :)

You always get it, ThomCat. Always love your posts.

[Name removed]

363. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ThomCat]

110. This isn't about random street violence.

It is about the pervasiveness of sexual harassment and sexual bullying.

Boys have to worry about sexual harassment and sexual bullying in school at levels close to girls, but not quite as high. But girls and women have to worry about it EVERYWHERE, their entire lived.

As a boy, you mostly have to worry about sexual harassment and bullying if someone thinks you are gay or accuses you of being gay. As a woman, it is open season on you all the time.

Your entire life men will feel like they have permission, or some INHERENT RIGHT to get up close and personal with you, and invade your space and get to know you, and judge you, and insult and demean you, you, and attack you if they want to, JUST BECAUSE YOU ARE A WOMAN.

Men don't go through any of that. The random street violence is just being in the wrong place at the wrong time. It isn't targeted at them specifically, and it certainly is not targeted at them because of their gender. The point of "random" is that it isn't targeted at them all.

[EOTE]

204. Yes, the post I responded to definitely was.

The post I responded to said that men don't have to worry about being randomly attacked. That's entirely not true, in fact, men are far more likely to be randomly attacked than women. Frankly, I could give a damn less why the person is attacking me.

[liberalhistorian]

216. I may not have a Ph.D., but I somehow don't think men have

to worry about being raped and sexually attacked quite as much as women do. In fact, not anywhere near as much. It's a constant fear with women, one that I don't think men quite fully understand. And that's what we're talking about here, not what you're talking about, which is violent attacks in general.

[EOTE]

217. Nope, they just need to worry about being attacked and murdered.

As women don't get violently attacked as much as men. In fact, not anywhere near as much. The post I responded to said that men don't need to worry about random, violent attacks. THAT was what I was responding to. Because not only is it not the truth, the opposite is true.

[ThomCat]

313. You keep saying that as if repetition will make it true.

No man that I have ever met worries on any serious level that he is going to be a victim of random violence.

No man that I have ever met worries on any serious level that he is likely to be murdered.

It just isn't a serious consideration.

If you polled 1000 men, and asked them if they ever worry about being the victim of murder or random violence I would bet you that the Yes response rate would be very low, and only in certain areas with known violent street crime.

if you polled 1000 women and asked them if they ever worry about being raped the number of yes responses would be MUCH higher. Especially given that 1:6 women WILL be raped in their lifetimes according to real rape statistics.

That is 166 women out of that 1000 women. And more of them will have sexually bullied, or sexually harassed.


Out of 1000 men, chances are, not one of them would have been the victim of any type of random street violence. Not one!

[EOTE]

328. Well that shows quite a difference in thinking, doesn't it?

I provided DOJ statistics that show men are a good deal more likely to be the victim of violent crime. That means that a good deal more than 1 in 6 men will be the victim of a violent attack in their lifetimes. Perhaps you'd like to argue with the DOJ?

[ThomCat]

330. You are totally abusing statistics if you thing that is what they say.

:eyes:

prove it!

[EOTE]

333. OK now, for the third time.

http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/cv08.pdf


"Characteristics of victims of violent crimes measured by the
NCVS in 2008 were similar to previous years. Males,
blacks, and persons age 24 or younger experienced violent
victimizations at higher or somewhat higher rates than
females, whites, and persons age 25 or older (table 4)."

"Females were more likely than males to be victims of rape
or sexual assault. Males experienced higher rates of victimization
than females in all other violent crimes measured by
the NCVS."

[ThomCat]

337. That absolutely does not say what you posted before.

:eyes:

It does not say that guys are victims of more violent crimes than women.

If rape is more common that all other violent crimes, then all of your assumptions are totally worthless.

All of your posts ASSUME that other violent crimes are more common than rape.

We know that that rape and sexual assault are consistently common, affecting an 1:6 women. You have not shown any numbers showing the frequency of other violent crimes, or showing that men and boys are raised in any kind of climate or fear of those crimes.

[EOTE]

340. Are you not capable of reading. Read this closely.

Males, blacks, and persons age 24 or younger experienced violent victimizations at higher or somewhat higher rates than females, whites, and persons age 25 or older (table 4)."

"All of your posts ASSUME that other violent crimes are more common than rape."

OK now, you seem to have a very hard time with numbers. It's OK, we're not all math people. Let's assume that rape is the most common violent crime. There are several other types of violent crime as well. That means that while rape may be the most commonly committed violent crime, rapes can still constitute a small minority of the total of violent crimes. Now, considering that men can be far more likely to be the victim of other violent crimes (every other violent crime), in total, they receive the brunt of violent attacks. You seem to have a problem with the DOJ's numbers. If you have a specific flaw, I'd love to hear it.

[ThomCat]

344. I can read just fine.

That study says that women men have higher reported rates of all violent crimes except rape. Women have higher reported rates of all other crimes.

The key word is reported.

But we know that regardless of how many crimes are Reported, women actually experience rape at a rate of 1:6.

So this is an example of someone taking one statistic entirely out of context and insisting that it means far more than it really does. Congratulations, you're the perfect example of someone every Stat. 101 professor likes to use as an example on the first day of class.

[EOTE]

346. So sexual assault is the only crime that goes unreported?

And you are once again throwing your 1:6 stat when I've debunked it numerous times. You can't even get your statistic right and you're lecturing me. Pathetic.

[Name removed]

544. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mzteris]

146. are you verbally abused nearly every single time

you "walk down the street"?

Do you have to be aware of your surroundings and the people around you every time you go anywhere or do anything?

Were you sexually violated when you were attacked? And yeah - being beat up is bad. Being raped is worse.

[EOTE]

207. No. And none of the women in my lives are either.

I know because I speak to them regularly about such issues.

"Do you have to be aware of your surroundings and the people around you every time you go anywhere or do anything?"

Yes, that's called being smart. Everyone should be aware of their surroundings and people around them. And get this, even though I'm very well aware of these things, I'm still far more likely to be the victim of random violence.

No, I wasn't sexually violated when I was attacked, I was actually very lucky. But far more people weren't as lucky when they were attacked. Many people die from being beaten up, so saying being raped is worse is really a foolish argument to make. It's like saying that tomatoes are far worse than oranges. Matthew Shepherd was beaten up, I'm guessing he'd have preferred to be raped and live. Both are awful and each person's experience is different.

[mzteris]

221. well - aren't they lucky?

And no, I'm not being sarcastic. Where do you live, btw?

Are "aware" even in your place of business? Even in places where I think most men would "feel safe" - I'm not talking about your typical "safety" situations, but being approached, groped, or have "something vile" said to you. Have you ever been in a retail store, shopping, minding your own business with your kid by your side, and have some guy - who worked there - walk behind you in a narrowish aisle and deliberately grind his groin into your backside as he did so? Then after you reported it to the manager, you were afraid to walk the block to your car with your child in tow?

When I made the statement "beaten up" - I meant just that - not being killed. Way to try and twist the argument. And yeah - being RAPED is WORSE than being (just) beaten up. And for some women - at least for a while (and for some for a very damn long time if not forever) - a lot of them would RATHER be dead.

[EOTE]

230. Once again, you're really playing down being "beaten up".

Many people are partially or fully paralyzed after being "beaten up". I'm guessing those people would have preferred to be raped. And a lot of those people would rather be dead.

What you fail to realize is that even in places where most men would "feel safe", they're still more likely to be violently attacked than women. I've had a number of vile things said to me by women and men, it feels awful regardless of the gender. I've had a woman relentlessly stalk me and try to get me kicked out while I was minding my own business at the mall. All because of the tshirt I was wearing.

Being raped and being beaten up are both intensely awful things to go through. I'm not twisting anything when I say that it's impossible to tell which is worse until you've experienced them both, and then one would only be making a personal determination.

I live in Maryland, and most of the women in my life do too. But I have a number of relatives and friends in California, Pennsylvania, Florida and Wisconsin too.

[ThomCat]

267. You are still missing a huge important point.

Men don't live their entire lives in fear every day worrying that violence is as ever- present a threat as it is for women.

Yes, there is the threat of random violence, but men don't have to worry that every person they meet might betray their trust and sexually assault them. Men don't have to prepare to be defend themselves from every encounter, letting people knew everyplace they are going and everyone they are meeting, and never going anyplace alone in case that guy turns out to be abusive or a rapist.

Men don't have to worry that the police aren't going to believe them, and are going to blame them for the attack. Police are usually going to believe that it was random violence. Hospitals are going to treat a gunshot wound or a beating and everything will get turned over to the DA. Cops routinely accuse women of causing their own rapes, and Rape kits routinely sit for years un-reviewed.

Men go about their lives normally, and if random violence happens, then it happens. They may take some precautions, but otherwise they don't don't live their lives as if random violence is an ever-present factor in their lives everywhere they go. Every time they go to work, every time they visit someone, in every friend's home, or business, or restaurant, or club, or every other place they go. Every time they meet with someone new, or every time the meet with someone they have known for years if he is alone and nobody else knows he is here, there is a chance of the situation escalating into rape.

Little girl gets taught, warned to be careful and protect themselves, never put themselves in situations, always think as if rape is a possibility.

Unless you live in a war-zone, boys don't live with that kind of fear, and in a war-zone, girls live with that same fear and live with a heightened fear of rape too.

Because research has already shown that as societal stress levels go up, levels of rape and sexual assault go up too. That would be times of economic stress and also times of violence or times of war.

Nobody can doubt that in Iraq right now, and in Afghanistan, and in war-torn areas in Africa, women get targeted for rape in devastating numbers. Often as a deliberate tactic.

So dismissing rape because men suffer from random violence too totally misses the point. Men aren't stalked and targeted for violence their entire lives because they are men. Random violence is random. Men are on the receiving end of it because they are out in the street more in violent areas where random violence happens. But they living in fear of being targeted.

[EOTE]

272. Women don't need to do that as well.

The great majority of people we encounter in our daily lives aren't out to get us and betray our trust. The media might make it seem that way, but it's not the case. Most people can live their lives without worrying about such things happening, and they won't. If you live in a bad area or are particularly afraid of being victimized, there are always self-defense classes, pepper spray and even guns.

And any asshole cop who would not believe a rape victim or try to blame them for the attack is also likely to be an asshole to just about any man he/she encounters as well.

Certainly there is a chance of being raped any time you step out of the door, that doesn't mean it's the least bit likely.

And I'm very interested in seeing where I did anything approaching dismissing rape. I responded to a post saying that men don't need to worry about being a victim of random violence. That's entirely untrue.

[ThomCat]

311. You are going to tell women that they don't need to be worried

about rape?

You are going to tell women that they don't need to educate their daughters and prepare them for the possibility and risk of being raped?

:wtf:

When at least 1 in every 6 women will be raped in her lifetime, and that number is higher when you consider other forms of sexual assaults and persistent sexual bullying? OF COURSE women are going to worry about it on an daily basis and make sure their daughters are warned. Are you kidding?

Who are you to dismiss something this common and severe?

And then you totally dismiss the severity of police officers who mistreat and abuse rape victims? That situation is so bad that rape victims describe their treatment by cops and then by the courts as being raped again. But you, in your infinite wisdom can just dismiss that entirely?

Wow!

It must be nice to know everything, and be able to just re-write reality like that. :eyes:

You're a real piece of work.

[EOTE]

325. That's not what I'm saying at all. You're putting words in my mouth.

Of course women should be warned about the dangers of rape and keep that in their heads. What they shouldn't do is, as you say, prepare to defend themselves with every encounter. Both men and women can go to just about any public place and be guaranteed a high degree of security. If you life your life like that, you're living it in a prison of your own making.

In spite of women being far more likely to be a victim of sexual assault, men are still more likely to be the victim of violent crime, including being nearly four times more likely to be murdered. Does this mean that men shouldn't shake anyone's hand in fear that this person is going to shank them? Should men meet every person with the assumption that this person is going to try to do them harm? Of course not.

[dionysus]

515. why do you keep putting words in his mouth and launching the strawman cannon?

[mzteris]

329. you have absolutely NO IDEA WHAT YOU"RE TALKING ABOUT

Bully for you and for the "women you know" that they don't do that - but I suspect those women do and you haven't a gd CLUE about what those women actually feel and think because you're too busy telling them that what they feel and think isn't as important as what YOU feel and think.

[boppers]

537. "Men don't live their entire lives in fear every day"... BULLSHIT.

I don't identify as male, but I do have those chromosomes.

I was violently beaten by my mother for most of my childhood.

Women scare the living shit out of me, and if you haven't noticed, they're freaking *everywhere*.

I'm currently in treatment for PTSD, and trying to deal with it, but I deal with a constant, pervasive, fear of humans in general, and women in specific, because what my childhood taught me was that women can be just as violent and brutal as men, and sometimes, much more so.

[mzteris]

312. my "personal determination" is

rape is worse.

Maybe the "women in your life" don't feel comfortable discussing this subject with you. I could well understand why.

[EOTE]

326. And my "personal determination" is

Spending the rest of my life without the use of my legs is worse. But we all have our priorities.

[mzteris]

327. so - you've been raped, then -

to make that "determination"?

[EOTE]

334. So you've been paralyzed then?

To make your "determination"?

[mzteris]

335. the discussion was in re: BEATING vs RAPE

not being paralyzed.

Have you experienced both, EOTE?

[EOTE]

338. You might not be aware of this. But becoming paralyzed is one of the results of being beaten.

That's one of those violent crimes I was referring to. Of course, not every violent attack ends in becoming paralyzed just as not every sexual assault ends in rape (that 1/6 statistic refers to sexual assault, not rape). Just as some violent attacks are a simple punch to the head, some sexual assaults are unwanted ass grabbings.

So, I'll ask you again, have you been paralyzed?

http://www.rainn.org/statistics

[ThomCat]

347. I have been.

I'm in an electric wheelchair. I've lost most of the use of my legs and much of the use of my arms and hands.

And I say you're full of shit.

You're making shit up claiming falsely that men have to fear violence equally to women, when that just isn't true.

All you have proven is that you are very persistent at misusing statistics, and that, for some reason, you really have a very strong personal desire to prove that rape is no big deal.

[mzteris]

351. I'm sorry ThomCat

that this @sshole is such an insensitive boor. I think my list just got a wee bit longer. He's not worth bothering with.

:hug:

[EOTE]

353. Numbers are stubborn things.

Especially when they're backed up by legitimate sources. You continue to use stats after I've debunked them with information from RAIN. You have yet to provide a single source, only your information which has proven to be quite unreliable. I know reading can be hard, but it's worth it.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

538. You set up the paralyzed question AS IF your point were contingent on it......

THEN, when ThomCat tells you he actually IS,

you IGNORE that? It's suddenly no longer part of your argument?




flop

[mzteris]

350. I love how you try to change the argument

to try and make yours "look better".

I've been beaten and I've been raped. andn I've been beaten and raped. And sexually assaulted. And molested since from before I can even remember. That enough gory details for you? Would you be happy if I had been paralyzed? Would that make my position more palatable to you?

YOU ARE THE MAN IN THE CARTOON IN THE FINAL PANEL. I feel sorry for those "women in your life". You haven't a f'ing clue = and obviously don't want one.

[EOTE]

354. I love how you don't know how to "use quotes".

You see, quotes are usually used when you want to illustrate what a particular person has said. I never said anything about making my argument looking better. My argument has been the same from the very beginning. And you're welcome to feel sorry for the women in my life, I'm sure you do a lot of worrying for a lot of people. They, however, don't feel sorry for themselves like you do.

[ThomCat]

339. Law of averages says that

a woman has a 1:6 chance of being raped. What are the odds that you will lose your legs due to violence?

1 in a million?

you keep trying to create these false equivalencies in order to dismiss the seriousness and commonness of rape and violence against women.

Nobody is buying your shit.

[EOTE]

342. You're throwing around another bogus statistic.

That 1:6 number you keep throwing around is a woman's chance of being sexually assaulted, not raped. A large number of those sexual assaults are rapes, but certainly not all of them.

And losing legs is just one of the many serious results of violence. So if you want to talk bullshit, clean out your own pen first.

http://www.rainn.org/statistics

[cleanhippie]

233. NO, yes and no.

No, I am not "verbally abused nearly every single time you "walk down the street"? ", but then again, MOST people aren't either.

Yes, I "have to be aware of your surroundings and the people around you every time you go anywhere or do anything?", and MOST people SHOULD be all the time. Its called situational awareness and if more people had, violence would decrease dramatically.

No, I was not "sexually violated when you were attacked? ", and I fail to see how that question is relevant to this discussion.

[mzteris]

332. this discussion is about sexual violation -

so yes, it is highly pertinent. This guy thinks that "random violence" is "just as bad", but it isn't. Not by a long shot.

and when I was younger, I was subjected to catcalls, whistles, STARES (yeah THAT kind), or verbal utterances - some of which COULD seem benign yet were in reality a sexual comment when accompanied by the leer, wink, nod, chuckle, or elbow to the their friend.

And I'm not - and never was - that attractive. I wasn't a bombshell, I wasn't "built", I wasn't beautiful or striking or any of those things. Just an average young woman.

[eridani]

182. By a woman? n/t

[EOTE]

208. No. What, exactly, is your point? NT

[eridani]

385. That women do not present a physical threat to you

If men get physically attacked it will be by another man, and never for the sole reason that the victim is male.

[Name removed]

194. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

209. Deleted message

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[EstimatedProphet]

24. Actually, I think I do get part of it

As it is represented in the cartoon, this is bullying.

[ThomCat]

167. Oh Yes.

It absolutely is.

:(

It is a very widespread an accepted form of bullying. And it is a form of bullying that most men dismiss as "no big deal" because they mistakenly confuse this bullying with complements.

There is nothing complementary about bullying.

You nailed it. Bullying is absolutely a good way to describe it.

[LiberalLoner]

71. So true. If i had a dollar for every strange guy who said "smile" at me....n/t

[Name removed]

132. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Brickbat]

134. Not fitting into conventional beauty norms is not protection against street harassment.

[Name removed]

142. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Brickbat]

147. As a homely woman, I can tell you it's no protection.

And there's no point in comparing who gets it "worse," or what a price to pay for that would be. The problem is that it happens at all, no matter how women look.

[Mad_Dem_X]

202. This homely woman agrees.

Just the simply fact that you are female makes you a target, for verbal or physical harassment.

[Brickbat]

211. Yup. And when I was younger, I had to tell myself that being catcalled on the street wasn't a good

thing -- it didn't mean I was pretty because that's what happened to pretty girls. I would get this terrible mixture of horror, fear, sadness and feeling of flattery when guys hung out of a car to yell at me as I went running.

[defendandprotect]

516. Rape isn't really about "attraction" -- it's about control . . . domination ...

[awoke_in_2003]

510. so women who possess beauty...

should expect harassment as part of the package?

[BlancheSplanchnik]

539. no, but women who possess an XX chromosome should expect harassment

as part of the package.

[Kalyke]

14. I doubt your numbers are that high.

I'd say it's more like 45 percent of you aren't misogynistic and 75 percent aren't would-be rapists.

[ThomCat]

78. Do you really think the number is that high?

When rape is an epidemic, and sexual harassment and sexual bullying is so common and so accepted that it described as "Routine" is research, then it CERTAINLY being committed by far more than 00.001% of guys.

Whether we admit it or not, whether we know it or not, we all know men who bully and harass and attack women. The attacks and violence against women are too common, too universal, too widespread throughout all of our society for it to be any other way.

All women and all girls everywhere at all ages are being subjected to harassment, bullying and attacks by the boys and men around them. At what point do we all start admitting this to each toher and start telling each other that it has to stop?

I say this as a man. We all have to admit this as men.

Violence and harassment against women and girls will never stop until men realize that WE are responsible for allowing it to happen. Male acceptance of discrimination against woman, and degradation of woman, and demeaning attitudes against women, and bullying and harassment against women is built into culture.

It is very incredibly rare to see men say anything when women or girls are insulted or mocked in sexual ways. And when anyone does dare to say anything, the defensiveness comes out. The attacks come out.

This thread is a good example of this. A simple cartoon showing the reality of how common it is for women to get harassed just walking down the street, and men are up in arms demanding that they be defended. Instead of women being defended from harassment, men insist that they are the ones who need to be defended. How damned sad is that?

[MedicalAdmin]

85. Really damn sad.

Women in our society are objectified. They aren't even people.

A woman might say "he's got a nice ass" about some hot guy they see, but that is a prelude to wondering what his personality etc is like and if they can forge a relationship.

Most men might say "look at the ass on that." No person. No respect. No relationship. Just a piece of meat to drool over or worse.



So yes, that is a great cartoon.

[Name removed]

133. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Brickbat]

135. People can dress however they want and expect to not be harassed.

But I suspect you knew that. And of course, appearance has nothing to do with whether one experiences street harassment or not.

[Name removed]

143. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Brickbat]

149. You know, I don't think that's true.

There's no point in rating them, or quantifying them. It's hard to say that being told "suck my dick" on the bus when you're pretty is somehow better than being told "suck my dick" on the bus when you're homely.

[ThomCat]

162. You have no idea what you are talking about.

Real life rape statistics show that ALL women, regardless of what they look like and regardless of how they dress, can be victimized by rape.

How a woman dresses is used AS AN EXCUSE TO DEFLECT BLAME so that women are somehow held responsible for the heinous actions of men who commit crimes.

[ismnotwasm]

148. Fuck that

[ThomCat]

161. Excuse me?

Anyone has a RIGHT to dress anyway they want. Men and women!

Dressing in any clothing, no matter what it looks like is not a crime. It certainly is NOT a RAPABLE OFFENSE!

So there is no possible way that a woman's choice is clothing can be blamed, legally, morally, or ethically for any sexual assault or rape committed against her.

If someone commits sexually assaults or rapes, that person is the one fully 100% responsible. Always! That person made the choice to commit the crime. That person Committed the Crime. That person is responsible for committing the crime.

Blaming the victim is total bullshit. Blaming what the victim was wearing is Bullshit. Blaming what the doing is bullshit. Blaming what the victim what drinking or where the victim might have been hanging out is bullshit.

Nothing else is relevant except that the person who committed the crime chose to do it, and did it. The criminal is responsible for the crime!

[quakerboy]

174. Please tell me you are being Ironic, some sort of Hipster statement.

Please.
cause otherwise, thats one of the more deplorable things Ive seen anyone say in a while.

Also one of the more meaningless. It seems to me that each generations "hooker" wear is the height of the next generations teen fashion. What exactly does a prostitute dress like? I drive around, and on certain streets, the only ones I can be fairly sure are not street walkers are those in Muslim head garb and the Hispanic women with children and groceries. Otherwise, everyone just looks like people, but given where I am and people I see getting in cars, I'm pretty sure that some of them are.

Anyway, Its them Prostitutes fault for dressing so naughty. And others for looking so promiscuous, like them prostitutes.

[mzteris]

144. 99.99%??? Methinks you are grossly overexaggerating

that number.

And one thing you need to understand - not every misogynist is a "would-be rapist" - some of them hate/dislike/fear women too much for that.

[ThomCat]

256. Yes, that number was pulled out of someone's ass.

I think that just needs to be made perfectly clear.

[HughBeaumont]

8. Yeah. We ALL fucking suck. We ALL do that.

We're the most disrespectful piles of shit walking. ALL of us. NO exceptions.

After all, females NEVER judge other males by THEIR looks, do they? Where's THAT cartoon?

[lukasahero]

13. Because of course "men just don't get it" = you "ALL fucking suck"

Good grief - and we're the ones who are called emotional?

[HughBeaumont]

19. The cartoon is a broad brush.

If it's not meant to be all inclusive, then why didn't she say "SOME men" instead of just "men", period?

[lukasahero]

20. I'm not saying it wasn't meant to be all-inclusive

I'm saying the statement doesn't mean 'you suck' - it means 'you don't understand'. If you don't face the harassment, you don't understand how it feels.

[Matariki]

56. The cartoon is about WOMEN'S daily experiences

It not always all about men.

[ThomCat]

77. The cartoon is very representative.

It represents the common experience.

So you don't see yourself in that cartoon. So what?

The fact is, if you insist that a woman HAS to talk to you when she doesn't want to talk to you, then at the very least you are ignoring her wishes and pushing yourself upon her because of your high opinion of yourself.

That is rude, and she has every right to consider that threatening behavior whether you see it as threatening or not.

Coercing any woman into talking to you is harassment.

Blaming any woman for not wanting to talk to you is blaming her for not wanting to be harassed.

Guys constantly talk about how they are the nice ones, and why don't women like nice guys, but if attack women for wanting to choose who they talk to, you aren't a nice guy! And I say that as a guy!

[Confusious]

123. Just so I know,

If I talk to a woman, and she makes it clear she doesn't want to talk and I leave, is that harassment?

I ask this because I always get the feeling from these threads that any unwanted attention, even just trying to start a conversation, would be considered harassment by some people here.

[ThomCat]

131. Good Question.

I'm going to pretend that this is a serious question, and not meant to bait me in some way.

So, here goes...

If a woman is alone, and is trying to be alone, and has been giving all the signals that ANY REASONABLE PERSON would interpret to mean that she wants to be alone then that means leave her alone!

If, despite that, you insist that you have a right approach her and demand that she talk to you, and specifically tell you that she isn't interested, then you are doing two (2) things wrong.

1. You are invading her personal space against her wishes, because you want to.
2. You are demanding that she must interact with you against her wishes, because you want her to.

So, YES, that would be HARASSMENT.

Please note that this entire scenario requires that the guy acts like a REASONABLE PERSON. For some reason, a hell of a lot of men insist that they aren't required to be reasonable when they are dealing with women. I'm saying something very radical here. I'm insisting that men really do have to behave reasonably with, around, and among women. I know that's going to strike many men as very strange. They'll just have to get used to the idea.

Now, second scenario:

If a woman is alone but gives absolutely no indication of any kind that you can see whether or not she wants to be spoken to, and you decide to approach her anyway, first of all you should think twice, but if you are going to persist then at least use good manners.

Chances are good that she wants to be left alone, because if she wanted to be social with you she could have said something so. Someone giving no visible signal is usually deliberately giving no signal as a way of saying "leave me alone." No visible signal doesn't mean "maybe," It means "no." Someone who is ignoring you is ignoring you for a reason. That is not a subtle signal.

If you insist that the quiet girl might be interested in you anyway, and you really must approach her to find out, because maybe, must maybe she is so absorbed in what she was doing that she just hasn't noticed you yet then you're going to go ahead and interrupt her anyway...

At least recognize that you are about to interrupting her to get her attention. That is rude, and she is very likely to consider it rude. So you aren't scoring any points right off the bat.

When you introduce yourself, keep your distance. Someone who is already being rude to interrupt and also invades her personal space is going to set off a lot of warning bells. And if she says she wants to be left alone, immediately apologize for interrupting and leave. Leave right away.

Was that harassment? No. But was it rude? Oh Yes.

If you want to meet women, my advise is to make friends with women someplace where you can be introduced to them by mutual friends, or friends of friends. If you don't have any friends who know women, or friends of friends who know women you can meet then that in itself is a problem. Meet more people who are better able to be friends across gender lines, and learn how to be friends with women yourself too.

[Confusious]

138. No, not meant to bait you in any way

I have some problems with personal interactions, and find reading signals from people, especially women, sometimes rather difficult.

I find your definition of harassment to be rather harsh, seeing as how I might not read someone correctly, and then be accused of harassing someone, even though it might have been inadvertent. When the signals are obvious to a monkey, one word answers, or no answers at all, i can see it, but beyond that, I'm pretty clueless.

My personal social life would have been pretty nil if it wasn't for match.com, or some of the other sites out there, since I'm also a shy person, and mst of my friends were either geeks, married, or gay. or a combination of both. Geek and gay, geek and married.

[ThomCat]

157. I'm sorry.

If you have trouble reading signals from people that's a very difficult situation to be in.

I have a few friends with Aspergers, including a teen I used to babysit since he was an infant. They all have difficult lives as a result. They all have an incredibly difficult time recognizing and translating social cues and body language that the rest of us take for granted.

But despite that, nobody has a right to insist that they can barge in on anybody else and demand to be heard, or demand to be know. That may represent a barrier for for, if you are simply unable to understand the nonverbal communication, but nobody else can be Required to make themselves socially and physically available for other people against their will.

That has to be the bottom line.

[Confusious]

183. I'm better then most, worse then many

It's usually obvious with someone who has better social skills then I. I've also learned some skills, though some things still escape me.

You use words like "insist", "demand", "require". I have never done that, never will do that. If the attention is unwanted, I apologize and leave. You make it sound like every social interaction is unwanted and tiresome.

[eridani]

185. Pleading a tendency toward being on the Aspie end ot the social awareness scale might help

"Sorry, I don't read social signals very well," is a perfectly acceptable close, IMO.

[Brickbat]

136. Ask yourself, if a man was giving you the same signals, would you continue pressing your case?

If a man was giving you the attention you were giving the same woman, would you react the same way?

[Confusious]

152. I wouldn't press the "case" if I felt it was unwanted

I never even press the "case" with ex-girlfriends. Over is over.

I'm just talking about walking up to someone and being told, or figuring out, that the attention is unwanted. Is that harassment?

I don't mind when people come up and talk to me. If I want to be alone, I go home. I don't consider a public place the a good spot to get privacy.

[Brickbat]

154. Heh.

"Over is over." That made me chuckle. :)

[Brickbat]

18. The cartoon wasn't about judging. It was about harassing.

[janet118]

21. June, I'm home!!! Where's my dinner? n/t

[HughBeaumont]

23. Right, because I'm just like Ward. I'm the one who cooks in my house, thanks.

And cleans. And does laundry, and rebuilds/repairs things and properly raises my honor-roll stepson.

See, we're not all budding GSI cases waiting to happen.

[janet118]

232. Good for you . . . so why Hugh Beaumont as your user name?

Ward never cooked a thing.

Now imagine that you have a stepdaughter instead of a stepson. Imagine that she had to put up with the unasked-for comments of strange men every time she had the audacity to appear in public. It's real. Good men should take this behavior seriously. Good men who see someone doing this "as a joke" have to stand up and tell these bullies that what they are doing is harassment and invasion of privacy. Women do not do this to men. It's not the admiration of the opposite sex; it's the vocalization of same in order to embarrass that person and/or bond with other members of their sex.

[superduperfarleft]

31. Overreact much?

You know, sometimes things aren't always about you.

[HughBeaumont]

32. Yeah, yeah, that's what my wife says.

It just appears that no one is looking for a "correct answer" to this flamebait, nor is it possible to give one.

Yes, I GET IT. Men are horrible, they only think with their dicks, they're only out to dominate, and have done so since they were able to walk upright. I wholeheartedly apologize on behalf of my gender's less-than-human behavior. We need to be more thoughtful and keep to ourselves and not look at you; avert the eyes, keep our heads down, shut the fuck up and all that.

I mean, I don't get what sort of meaningful, bridge-building discussion this is supposed to provoke. Should I have just stayed out of this and not touched it with a ten-foot pole, like I usually do when gender issues are discussed, because it seems no comment is ever going to be the right one?

[superduperfarleft]

33. You think this cartoon is flamebait?

I think it addresses an issue that far too many men are not aware of. I know because I myself never really gave it much thought until a few years ago.

"Should I have just stayed out of this and not touched it with a ten-foot pole..."

I'm thinking yes.

[HughBeaumont]

39. So what meaningful discussion can come of this if you're just supposed to shut up and agree?

The cartoon kind of lost me at the "Suck my cock" example. That's a regular occurrence? Really?

Maybe it's because I've been bullied by both males and females for 20 of my 41 years that I'm not really being reached here. I'm in the camp that humans in general need to improve and be more civil, not just men.

[gkhouston]

46. When I was young and pretty, yes, it was a regular occurrence.

I still get the occasional cat-call, and I'm a fat middle-aged housewife. I've heard all of those remarks, more than once, starting at age 11.

[Brickbat]

47. Actually, it is a regular occurance.

Bullying is not gender-specific. Gender-based bullying is, and that's what we're talking about here. It's hard to talk about it because many people honestly, through no fault of their own, do not believe it goes on as often as it does, or that it can be laughed off, or that it should be lumped in with bullying in general.

Also, you say you've been bullied for 20 of your 41 years. Have you been bullied as an adult?

[HughBeaumont]

55. Yes. Many times at junior college in my 20s.

Grew up in one redneckistan hole in Ohio. Wasn't just my town, but all towns surrounding it. They were filled with some real assholes-just-because-they-COULD-be type of assholes. It didn't stop just because high school ended. People don't take kindly to someone with 2-3 feet of hair in insular Redneckistan, Ohio, and that goes for all genders.

[Brickbat]

57. I hear that.

Did you leave?

[HughBeaumont]

62. Moved out of the Redneckistan part, anyway.

The city I live in now is closer to Cleveland and isn't too terrible despite being loaded with a fair share of Bewsh II Kool-Aidists. At least they care about their children's educations, unlike the places I lived in before. Whenever I go back to those inbreeding grounds, I get a sick feeling.

[Brickbat]

64. Makes sense. But you were able to escape it. I've yet to live in a place where I'm not harassed in

public.

[lukasahero]

49. How about "Show us your tits!"?

That one has become a bloody pop icon.

[HughBeaumont]

58. That's always wrong.

Hate when rock stars did that. Hated it even more when women obliged.

[lukasahero]

61. I have no idea about rock stars doing it

I just know I've heard it screamed at me out of car windows, from across the street, while waiting for the bus, walking the dog, working in my yard, on my way to work... etc, etc, etc

[Maine-ah]

399. I'm female...I'm a bartender

and what some would consider "attractive". I'm also very small. 4'11", 102lbs. I consistently hear that particular phrase, and have been offered a bit of money to do so. I'm consistently asked by male patrons to go back to the hotel with them next door, even after I've told them I'm married and not interested. There's always a comment about my body etc....

I have had patrons wait for me. I take an employee escort to my car every night. Usually a guy from the kitchen, or we'll leave in groups.

To read some of the posts in this thread that women should not have to be on alert where ever they go, they're wrong. And especially for someone my size, I have no chance in hell to defend myself if someone should attack me.

btw, I don't live in a large city or a high crime area either.

[awoke_in_2003]

511. always walk to you car...

with your keys in hand. Have one key jutting out between your middle and ring finger of your dominant hand. Make a fist, with the back of the key supported by the heel of your closed fist. You don't have to have a Mike Tyson punch to stop someone in there tracks. Holding the key like this will concentrate your punch to a very small point. It is extremely effective, especially it you get the eyeball. Escorts might not always be available, so you should get in the habit of doing something like this. I think all women should take some basic defense classes that show how to take every day objects and use them to stop an attack. You CANNOT worry about physically harming an attacker- your life my be in danger, so screw the other person. That sentence is hard for some people to get past, but that is the way it is.

[Confusious]

125. Second that part

I was bullied by both guys and gals my first 20 to. People in general need to be more civil.

[Brickbat]

137. Very true.

It seems the bullying ended when you were in your early 20s, though correct? It doesn't for women. That's the point.

[Confusious]

310. Yea, it ended earlier with peers

I attended a high school of 250 kids, everyone knew everyone, and abuse was frowned on. But it did continue at home with my step mother. I was stubborn though,and she couldn't beat that out of me. I survived, barely. 20+ years, on and off, of therapy, continues.

[MedicalAdmin]

89. The first step to peace....

is understanding your enemy.

The next step is loving your enemy.






Try to understand. You don't need to respond or to make a point. Just try to understand.

[TNLib]

118. Wow you totally missed the point of that Cartoon

It's not saying all mean are evil bastards.

It's just pointing out that women at times are harassed by men and some men don't quite get that were not flattered by being bullied.

[HughBeaumont]

121. I understood the cartoon.

I thought "Men don't really get it, do they" was uncalled for.

Word it as "Most men don't really get it, do they?"

[quakerboy]

173. But then some fine gent

would come along and make exactly your argument, only insist that most men do, that it should be worded as "some men". And Some men would invoke complaints that it should be "a few men" which would in turn invoke a complaint that it should be "that one dim bulb on that one reality show really doesn't get it"

[ThomCat]

320. Yes, it becomes a slippery slope.

By changing the focus from a discussion of harassment of women, to a defense of men, suddenly few and fewer men are allowed to be mentioned or shown in the cartoon,

until suddenly only one guy can be pictured, with lots of disclaimers stating that he's a convicted rapist and a certified creepy guy, with his name and DNA evidence provided so that everyone knows it's not any other innocent guy out there.

The cartoon would have to to explicitly state that it does not refer to any other NICE GUY (tm) and that all other NICE GUYS (tm) are wonderful, innocent men who are absolutely worthy of dating.

But somehow, despite that, the levels of sexual harassment, bullying, abuse and rape would remain the same.

We just wouldn't be allowed to portray that in any way or talk about it.

[quakerboy]

359. Its kinda like congresscritters that way

By and large everyone loves their own, they are wonderful. Its all those other ones who are nasty and dont listen to the people and need to be replaced.

And the men in everyone's life are all Nice Guys (TM). Its all those other ones who are problematic. This makes me think of that thread in the lounge a few back, where someones childhood friend suddenly lunged over, and started whaling on his wife. But he was a Nice guy.

[pinboy3niner]

360. Speaking as a Nice Guy (TM)...

...it seems to me that much of the discussion misses the point. The cartoon is about WOMEN'S experience.

As ThomCat points out, the defenses made for men are really off-topic. The cartoon is NOT about MEN, at all. That would take several dozen other threads, at least. :)

[bobbolink]

38. thank you for the honesty.

[HughBeaumont]

44. Hey! How've you been?

Hope you're doing OK . . .

[ThomCat]

79. Defensive much?

Instead of getting defensive, how about just admitting that there is a well known epidemic of sexual harassment, sexual bullying, and sexual violence that all women have to face every day of their lives.

Men have the privilege of ignoring this, so most men don't get it. But just take a moment and just consider if you needed to be worried about this every moment of every day every time you met someone and dealt with someone.

If every time you talked to someone you had to be worried about whether or nor a sign of disrespect was going to turn into sexual harassment, how would you respond?

If every time you were sexually harassed you had to worry about whether it was going to escalate into some kind of sexual assault, how would you feel? And if every day you had to plan your activities to deliberately minimize the chances that you would be alone with anyone, to minimize the opportunities for sexual assaults, how would you feel?

If you knew that there were a lot of people out there eager to sexually harass and sexually assault you given the opportunity, how would you feel? And if you knew that they would immediately blame you for it, and almost everyone would let them successfully get away with blaming you for it, how would you feel?

Sexual harassment, sexual assault and rape statistics say that this is the real world! That is real life for women when dealing with a hell of a lot of real men.

[MedicalAdmin]

87. Good question.

Where is that cartoon?

Post the link.

[readmoreoften]

220. You should check your anger. "What would Obama do?"

Keep thinking: WWOD?

I think that Obama cares about women and the way they're treated. I think even you would agree with that. WWOD. WWOD. WWOD. Stay it like a mantra.

[Brickbat]

16. Some do, but it's hurtful when those on our side don't.

[a la izquierda]

392. men who were raised by wolves don´t get it.

my husband wouldn´t DARE treat a woman like that. he was raised right.

[Hello_Kitty]

3. K and R. eom

[lukasahero]

5. + numbers too big to count

:thumbsup:

[lunatica]

6. Does that still happen?

If it does I'm glad I'm not young anymore. Jesus! I remember it only too well. Men like that actually think they're giving women a compliment when all it does is make women feel dirty and insulted.

[lukasahero]

10. Yes, it does

And not only to the young.

[Hosnon]

12. I had a moment of realization a few years back about this.

I don't exactly recall where I was but a very attractive female walked in and immediately caught my eye... and I probably stared for a bit too long. And then it dawned on me that she probably deals with similar stares any time she is out in public. That's gotta be uncomfortable - and that was only a stare (this comic illustrates that the stare is likely on the minimal side of things).

While I still notice good-looking women, I make a conscience effort to keep it at just a noticing glance.

[lukasahero]

15. Thank you

Thank you so much for taking a moment to see the situation from a woman's perspective. I could :hug: you right now.

[eridani]

186. Take a lesson from cats on this

They're all masters of avoiding unwanted feline fights by those quick glances.

[femrap]

17. So funny that some of the

male DUers think this is done by only 0.01% of the male population. So there's just a couple of boyz out there harassing women. Any maybe only 3 rapists.

It's amazing that these certain DUers seem to take this 'cartoon' sooooooooo personally. Why is that? Why is the dude so personally defensive? Why?

Maybe there will be a 'on the job harassment' next. Followed by 'at school harassment.'

The boyz love their patriarchy...the root of our dismal and pathetic culture.

[EstimatedProphet]

25. Now that is going too far

People are allowed to disagree with you without being villains.

[femrap]

27. I believe you are

projecting. I was talking about patriarchy and how it affects our culture and male's attitudes.

You're proving me right.

It's like a fish in water...it doesn't even see the water. Same w/ many regarding patriarchy.

You disagree that we're living in a patriarchy? If so, you need to join the fish.

Maybe thou protest too much?

[EstimatedProphet]

36. So, since I think you called someone out unfairly, that makes me a patriarchist?

Actually, you're proving me right instead.

"It's amazing that these certain DUers seem to take this 'cartoon' sooooooooo personally. Why is that? Why is the dude so personally defensive? Why?

Maybe there will be a 'on the job harassment' next. Followed by 'at school harassment'."

Or maybe they just disagree. People are allowed to do that. It doesn't automatically make them future molesters or harassers. The fact that you think it implies that it does is projection on your part, not mine.

[femrap]

42. OK, sweetie.

You are probably a nice little young man. But I don't have the time or desire to educate you about patriarchy. Google it. Read up. Get an education. Patriarchist isn't even a word. OK?

We live in a patriarchy. That is a fact. You enjoy the entitlements that go along with that.

Rape kits sit on shelves for years. Rapists are rarely incarcerated and if so, not for that long unless they're serial and murder.

So go get a little bit of education cuz I'm so fucking sick of dealing with WILLFULLY IGNORANT people IRL....I'm certainly not going to waste my fucking time dealing with on a so-call 'liberal/progressive' site dealing with more WILLFUL IGNORANCE.

And another one hits the List.

[Swamp Rat]

81. EstimatedProphet is a good person and your ally.

No need to chastise and belittle him.

Save it for the whole slew of male chauvinist pigs that inhabit our world.

Nevertheless, the other points you made still stand.

[femrap]

83. But it's OK

if he does that to me, right?

I'm outta here.

Real life is enough.

[Swamp Rat]

90. I don't understand. What did EstimatedProphet do to you?

:shrug:

[whopis01]

205. Actually, 'patriachist' is a word.

It may not mean what the other poster thought it meant, but it is a word.

[femrap]

226. Who knew that in 1905 there were

40 Patriachists residing in Kilkis, a town in Central Macedonia of Greece?

I wonder if they realize how patriarchy has ruined our planet?

ETA: And The Patriachists from Strumica built the church of Pentekedeka Martyron. They seem to be involved in Organized Religion so that's not a good sign.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

400. Would it hurt you SO much to use the same level of civility of the people who addressed you?

Accusing people of antisocial, borderline criminal behavior with NO evidence whatsoever is not, repeat with me, NOT OK.

[ThomCat]

82. I agree with her.

Posts here getting defensive and demanding that any discussion of harassment against women HAVE to turn into a defense of men really gets irritating.

The idea that 99.99% of men are harmless is absurd. Another thread put it at 99.9999% of men are supposedly benevolent and have nothing but the best interest of women at heart. So saying anything about the harassment women face is somehow an attack against all men, and nobody is every allowed to talk about violence or harassment against women without an automatic disclaimer talking about how absolutely wonderful most men are. :eyes:

Can you imagine if any talk about racism had a mandatory disclaimer first talking about how wonderful white men are? Doesn't that sound like enforcing racism on any discussion of racism?

But that is exactly the sort of thing people are demanding here. You can't discuss anything involving sexism or patriarchy without first reinforcing sexism and patriarchy, because sexism and patriarchy are so wonderful!

The defensiveness of men when talking about what happens to women has to end. Women are the ones who face the harassment and attacks daily. Not men. If any guy here doesn't see themselves in that cartoon, then the cartoon doesn't apply to them. That's the end of it. Special disclaimers should not need to be applied to sooth any guy's wounded ego, because men aren't vulnerable to women in our society. Women are vulnerable to persistent and common abuse from men. That's the whole point of the cartoon, and the point that needs to be discussed.

[femrap]

91. OMG.....thank

you for your intelligence.

And to be told that who is my ally?! I'm supposed to like posters because someone tells me to?! That somehow I don't know any better?

My Ignore List has grown again.

I'm so glad I saw your post before I left. It means a lot to me.

Thank you.

[mzteris]

151. ThomCat is one of the VERY GOOD guys.

:loveya: ThomCat...

[ThomCat]

160. Aw! Thank you!

:loveya:

[femrap]

229. Very, very good.

With a big heart and huge brain!!!

He may be a good reason for cloning!

[FedUpWithIt All]

524. Thank you ThomCat. n/t

[ThomCat]

172. I don't get where

it is painting anyone as a villain to point out that the 99.99% number is absolutely totally absurd. It is a ridiculous made up number that has no basis in reality.

I also don't see where it is painting anyone as a villain to say that some people on this thread overreacted and acted defensive. Some people DID overreact and get defensive on this thread.

She didn't accuse anyone of being a villain of any kind. So where did she go too far? :shrug:

Are you one of the people overreacting?

[FedUpWithIt All]

522. Do you mind if i ask what part of the OP you disagree with?

I am confused why so many are offended by the cartoon in the OP especially when such a high percentage of women are claiming, myself is in this number, that the behavior in the OP happens with alarming frequency and is very disconcerting.

[Lyric]

59. To be fair to the male DU'ers:

I suppose it makes sense that the men HERE find this sort of thing offensive, if only because "our" men are indeed less likely than the "average" man to be bigoted brutes. But what they don't understand is that we women don't LIVE in a world where the other gender is populated solely by male DU'ers. We live in the Really Real World, and frankly, there are a LOT more assholes out there than the male DU'ers seem to comprehend.

I just wish they wouldn't get so pissy at US for pointing it out. Sure, there are a small percentage of men to whom this cartoon doesn't apply. But they are indeed a small percentage. Our male DU'ers don't seem to understand that most of them are the rare, rare exceptions to the overarching rule.

As for defending their gender--I don't understand why men seem to think that they *need* to defend their gender. As a rule, the only people who find it necessary to band together for the common good are people who belong to some sort of oppressed minority. The reason we don't have a "Men's Forum" here at DU, even though we DO have a Women's forum, is the same reason why we don't have a "White Issues" forum even though we DO have an African-American Issues forum. Empowered majorities don't need special protection or space. The whole WORLD is their space.

[Brickbat]

60. Yes.

Yes, yes, yes, and yes. Thanks.

[lukasahero]

66. But that's exactly the point of the comic

"Our" guys may not participate in the behavior but they also don't understand how it feels (and you can't tell me they don't believe it happens).

I have heard from many men in my life (and read on these boards) the exact same sentiment expressed in the cartoon. (Check out any teacher/student sex scandal thread - it's the guys here saying they wished a teacher would have come on to them.) They don't understand the power imbalance, the daily barrage and they, as in the cartoon, think it would be GREAT to get that much attention from women.

That's what we should be talking about here. And this cartoon could have been a great way to start having a conversation about that. Instead, as always when a woman's issue is brought up, it still turned out to be All. About. Them.

[Lyric]

74. To them, it probably *would* be great.

They can't possibly understand what it's like to view life from a constantly wary perspective.

I wonder if they could honestly imagine what it would be like to be a 5'2", skinny, scrawny guy on an island full of 6'3" stocky, muscled women (where THEY hold the majority of police, government, business, and other "important" jobs, and THEY are the ones who are considered "the leaders" of society) and have them cat-calling at you--especially when a good chunk of the population of those women have been known to TAKE what they want when it isn't freely offered.

[femrap]

72. Go tell it to

the boyz.

Were you here during the primaries when all that hatred was spewed toward women?

I really don't need the lesson on how the Leftie boyz are so 'progressive.' Why do you think the Women's Movement began? All the Leftie boyz had us making copies and getting coffee. Finally we went upstairs and took over that space.

Geez....I need a lesson in being fair to the boyz.

Get me the fuck out of here.

[Lyric]

80. "Geez....I need a lesson in being fair to the boyz. Get me the fuck out of here "

Ohhhh...I see. "Shut up and go play, little girl". How ironic. Not that I said anything or did anything to "lesson" you--it just makes me laugh that someone who claims to concern herself with the empowerment of women has such a terrible problem with allowing other women to speak. What's sad is that you apparently ignored the substance of what I actually SAID.

And for the record? Both before, during, and after the primaries? I was right fucking here, getting labeled as a "DLC hack" just like all the other Clinton supporters. Funny how now WE'RE the ones being called "the Angry Left" and "leftbaggers"--or maybe it's just sick and sad.

Anyway, you apparently you have the capability to type arrogant, bullying drivel whenever your little heart desires to do so. Instead of asking a dismissive "question" that you THINK you already know the answer to, try using it to type my name into the search box. Here, I'll even do the first few for you:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x6849381

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x8257623

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=2061095#2063046

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=217&topic_id=5848

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=8104413

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=8174863#8174915

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=7976852

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=6990935

In the meantime, if you can't advocate FOR women without acting like an asshole and trying to bully women into shutting up, you are MORE than welcome to get yourself "the fuck out of here".

[femrap]

84. ;

[TNLib]

124. this is what I don't get the cartoon doesn't imply that all mean are evil

It just points out that women get harassed and sometimes our spouse boyfriends ect.. don't understand it's harassment they think it's flattery.

I don't get were this cartoon implies in anyway that all males are evil, rapist, molesters.

[ThomCat]

163. You are very right. You are seeing the cartoon clearly.

in some ways this cartoon is almost a Rorschach test. People see what they want to see in it.

The Guys who look at it and get all defensive, insisting that it attacks all men, accusing all men of harassing women, well, this tells us something about them. It tells us more about them than it tells us about the cartoon, because as you rightly pointed out, the cartoon doesn't actually say any of this.

But when they post their defenses of men, insisting that men can't or shouldn't be accused of harassing women, then we might be able to get into some really meaty discussions about responsibility for harassment and violence.

So even a misreading of the cartoon can lead us somewhere. :)

[eridani]

187. It's probably true that most men don't do the sort of harassment depicted in the OP

But on the other hand, neither do they realize how common it is. If they don't experience that sort of harassment themslves, they tend to blow it off as not a problem.

[The Straight Story]

396. Most the crime in my area is committed by blacks - so I have good reason to fear them

Sounds similar.

[janet118]

26. This is most destructive for young women

I took a high school girl (16 years old) to a night baseball game at Fenway Park. We sat in the bleachers in front of two men (Iraq War vets, they claimed) who were commenting on every woman who walked down the steps. Their audible various reviews ranged from "hubbahubba" to "man is she ugly." Alley, the 16-year-old, was afraid to go to the restroom because she didn't want to be the subject of their remarks. It brought back similar experiences I'd had working summers in Boston during high school and walking past constructions sites.

It's a form of bullying and it is up to the good men to say something to their fellow males who do this sort of thing. Those who do it usually have an audience. It's up to the audience members to boo him.

[bobbolink]

45. Its not going to get booed. Look at the reesponses... a lot of "men" think its ever-so-funny.

:puke:

[ThomCat]

86. Yes! It is up to any guy friends to be brave enough to tell them

to STFU! If we wouldn't put up with that shit, they'd shut up.

I wonder how many people were sitting there enjoying the "entertainment" they were providing. x(

[superduperfarleft]

28. Interesting.

OP tries to start a discussion about the very real harassment that women face on a daily basis, and half the thread is whining about "Not all men are like that!"

No comment. Just found it interesting.

[Brickbat]

29. I have to admit I hesitated to post it for that very reason. I hate the way feminist and women's

views are treated in many progressive circles, and I hate going through the same damn arguments over and over again. But I loved the cartoon, and wanted to share it.

[superduperfarleft]

30. I'm male, I thought it was a great cartoon.

Thanks for posting.

[Scout]

40. happens EVERY time here ... n/t

[Brickbat]

54. I know. I really should know better.

I usually hide pretty much any gender-based thread. I'm so, so tired of fighting with my own side about so many things.

[Solly Mack]

34. K&R

[butterfly77]

35. Kicked&Recommended!

So true..

[TheMadMonk]

37. One of the problems is that whatever the modification of outward behviour...

...men ARE going to continue have these thoughts. It's part of our nature. We evaluate for sexual potential. And as a general rule we're unfortunately more like chimps than bonobo's when it comes to sex. Highly possessive, and you take what you can get, when you can get it.

The sort of outward behaviour depicted stems from not understanding ourselves. Or worse still denying reality altogether. By choosing to mystify and dirtify sex as a society we create at least half of these problems. Men know behaviour of the sort depicted is wrong, and yet every time they look at a woman their mind is ticking away habouring those thoughts regardless. Not properly knowing why their brain is ignoring "decency"/"morality", some choose to ignore everyone else and go for personal gold.

And no I am not saying that if only we were more like bonobos and girls just put out we wouldn't have these problems. Some human societies seem to have made this accomodation, but it's a rarity and one easily destroyed by even casual encounter with our type. What I am saying, is that while we do not have to accomodate the sexual deviant that lives within, we do have to accept its innate existence and educate accordingly, not simply try to decree it out of existence.

[HughBeaumont]

41. I like your post.

Especially the "dirtifying sex" part. Men in general aren't outwardly the walking GSI cases depicted in the cartoon, but their ingrained nature of sex being this forbidden taboo thing rather than a normal human process serves as the basis of the thoughts still being there. Women know and sense this, even if the reaction isn't verbal. We cannot help ourselves and we're never going to.

I don't think any answer on topics such as these is going to be a correct one, but this comes close. Good job.

[lukasahero]

43. "We cannot help ourselves and we're never going to. "

Well, at least you're honest.

[TheMadMonk]

175. Not at all. We can help ourselves. We can't help our thoughts.

No amount of demanding on your part will make the slightest bit of difference to the part of the male mind which pants, salivates and cries hubba hubba. Try to eliminate it, rather than understand and control and you get anything from "nice arse, shame about the face" to those mamma's boy, serial rapist/killers on SVU.

No, I am not claiming insanity lets men off the hook. At the extremes you do find true insanity, where the brain is unable to cope with having the dirtiness beaten or prayed out, but mostly it's just ordinary men who let their "instincts" talk, because while they might know that the behaviour is wrong, they don't have a proper understanding of why the message from within is not the same at that from without.

Yes we have our unique brains, but we are also still animals, with animal instincts. Failure to acknowledge this is half the problem here.

[ThomCat]

177. If you can't control your thoughts then you haven't tried.

Even a basic introduction to meditation, or prayer, or even just having to concentrate on a reasonably common basis will teach anyone to be able to control their thoughts.

As thoughts occur to you, you direct them where you want them. They inevitably wander, and you redirect them back again. They inevitably wander again, and again, and again, and you keep redirecting them.

Having Absolutely NO Ability At All to Control Your Thoughts is abnormal. Having absolutely no Desire at all to want to control your thoughts is also abnormal.

By 1st grade, most kids have at least SOME discipline at controlling their thoughts. By the time kids his puberty they should have enough strength of will and enough training at controlling themselves and their impulses that their thoughts do not totally rule them.

This idea of yours that men are totally rules by their thoughts is insulting and absurd.

[Brickbat]

48. You know what's interesting, though, is that it's not about sex, or whether it's a "forbidden taboo"

thing. It's about anger and power. When men whisper in my ear "I want to fuck your ass" on the subway, I really, really don't think that's what they want to do. I think they want to scare me, to embarrass me, and to make me feel small. And it works.

[superduperfarleft]

63. Perfect example of why this thread should be here.

As I said upthread, I really didn't give this issue much thought a few years ago. The idea that someone would whisper something like that to you on a crowded subway is so foreign to me that if I hadn't had so many women tell me similar stories, I wouldn't believe it.

Keeping this thread kicked because I'm still trying to figure out how to articulate some things on this subject.

[Brickbat]

65. Well, thanks for listening.

And I mean that. It really is shocking the first few times it happens. You want to laugh and cry at the same time. And it's not just the young hood or the creepy damp-crotched guy in the corner -- it's the guy in a suit, it's the guy in the hipster glasses, it's the 15-year-old and the 70-year-old, it's the white guy, the black guy, the Asian guy, the friendly guy, the professional guy. It's exhausting.

[lukasahero]

68. "It really is shocking the first few times it happens."

Made all the worse when you try to talk to the men in your life about it and they dismiss it with the same apathy as the guy in the comic.

[Brickbat]

69. Or when he asks, with all concern and love, "What were you doing?"

[Doctor_J]

88. I had no idea

people really say that? To a stranger? Maybe that's why I am so clueless - the most crass thing I ever do is stare, and only when no one is watching

[Brickbat]

99. They do. They do indeed.

They grope, grab, and tickle. They blow on your neck, whisper in your ear. They yell right in your face. They are charming and polite and make you to be the bad guy for not wanting to engage with someone. "Come on, I'm just being nice!"

It doesn't matter what your age or your looks are or what you're wearing. It doesn't matter if you're walking confidently or hiding.

It can wreck your day. It can take away a good mood and make you feel sad and defensive.

This cartoon is exactly what happens to women.

[ThomCat]

108. "They make you to be the bad guy"

A hell of a lot of people here make women the bad guy for thinking that harassment, abuse, and assault are issues that should be seriously discussed.

It seems as if some people think that if every post on a thread doesn't start by talking about how wonderful men are, then everyone there is just an evil man-hater. :eyes:

Someday we will get to the point where issues like this can be seriously discussed without the defensiveness. Someday we will get to the point where everyone will be showing up to discuss the problems and discuss actual solutions instead of showing up to get defensive.

[HughBeaumont]

106. Anyone who does that to you should be punched in the balls or pepper sprayed.

That's fucking ridiculous. And trust me, that's exactly what's going to happen to them one day.

[ThomCat]

109. But that rarely happens when a lone woman faces

groups of guys anywhere. Or even a lone woman faces a single guy who is usually larger than her physically intimidating.

In the vast majority of situations the safest thing to do is just get out of those as quickly as possible and hope it doesn't escalate into a physical confrontation. :(

[Brickbat]

139. Yep. But part of the problem is we live in a society where women are told to shut up and ignore it,

or, worse shut up and enjoy it. And if we say something and tell them to step off, we're overreacting. If we get mad, we're being bitches. And if we get physical, we're getting hysterical. And if we do nothing, it must not have been that big a deal.

[ThomCat]

165. It's always a no-win situation.

No matter what you do, there will always be people out there willing to attack you and blame you for doing the wrong thing, and say that the whole situation was your fault.

Especially for minority and/or poor women. The more vulnerable a woman is for whatever reason, the worse it gets, and the more blame there is when anything happens.

[Beacool]

156. I agree.

It's a way to dominate and humiliate women.

x(

[seabeyond]

369. all of this is to dominate and humiliate the female. men can use the excuse of bonobo the chimp all

they want and i really dont give a rats ass about it.

the purpose of these men is to dominate and humiliate.

[ThomCat]

98. All people are inherently sexual.

That includes all women as well as all men.

But you seem to be buying into the myth that men are inherently sexual to such an extent that we can't control it, and women aren't. and that is total, 100% Bull Shit! On the very face of it, that idea is total sexist nonsense.

Hormones may influence your mood, your decisions, your desires, but they do not control your behavior. If they do control your behavior then you have a very incredibly serious problem!

So the idea that men can't control ourselves because of our sexuality is an EXCUSE! And there is a very easy way to prove this! let's peal away that layer of... Heterosexism!

Gay men aren't allowed this same excuse. Only Straight men are allowed this excuse. How convenient!

Gay men are STILL often expected to be able to keep our sexuality so incredibly deeply in the closet, so incredibly under control, that you can't see it at all. In fact, we used to be expected to not only keep our sexuality hidden, but also to sometimes pretend to be straight too. Straight men have NEVER, ever been expected to have that level of control. Straight men has this excuse that your hormones are supposedly beyond control!

Every man, no matter who he is, can control himself regardless of how turned on he is. Every man, no matter who is is, can control his behavior and treat women with respect if that is his intent.

If men harass women, or bully women, or attack women sexually hormones are nothing but a cheap excuse, and we cannot allow cheap excuses. Ever!

Any man who does anything this despicable has to be help responsible for his own behavior! Any men who condone or support that kind of behavior have to be held responsible for making harassment, abuse and assaults easier and more likely.

Take responsibility for your actions and behavior, or admit that you're making excuses.

[HughBeaumont]

105. Dogpile on the rabbit! Dogpile on the rabbit!

I'm not really buying into anything at all.

You know what, forget it. You're absolutely correct. I suck, am a complete sexist tool, shouldn't even be married, and I officially am turning in my progressive card as we speak. I'm a pig who likes porno, just like every other GSI case male depicted in the cartoon above. I throughout life have dissappointed people again and again, and for the first time, I'm doing it here. Just fucking great.

The perfect DUer doesn't exist, nor does the perfect male. Nor does the perfect female. We all have flaws and you just exposed mine.

This . . . THIS is why I stay the hell out of threads like these. This is the last goddamned time.

[ThomCat]

111. Again,

instead of presenting anything nuanced you retreat into an absolutist position. This time, it's "Ignore everything I said. I give up."

If you didn't really believe anything you said, then why post it? :shrug:

[HughBeaumont]

116. What's the point?

Whatever answer I give will never satisfy anyone, it'll never be correct.

Let's go back to what started this: "Men really don't get it, do they?"

It's a statement that really has no right answer. How many times do I have to say this? Yes. I GET THAT MEN SUCK. I understand that women are ogled, stared at, bullied, harassed and made to feel less than a human. But that's never going to be good enough. I can't walk in a woman's shoes because I'm not a woman, obviously. As someone who's been harassed and bullied all throughout grade school, middle school, high school, college, been in bad and abusive relationships (yes, women do it to men as well), that is pretty much the only way I can relate. I got made fun of for looks, acne, height, weight, the way I walk, the way I talk, the music I listen to, the clothes I wear. 20 years straight. I cannot be around anyone I went to school with that did this. Yet, I understand that it happens to women 100 million times more than it does to men and I'm SORRY that it does.

How do you tell anyone that? You cannot. No answer is correct. NO answer is acceptable. I can't convey understanding. That's the problem I have with a statement like "Men really don't get it." It DIVIDES. It's an automatic wall that I'll never break through.

So now I know the right answer to all of this: HIDE. THREAD. You aren't oppressed. You have no opinion. Stay out. This isn't your dance. DON'T COMMENT.

I just don't feel like trading essays on something that obviously can't be bridged nor come to an understanding on.

I don't know what it's like to be you. I don't know what it's like to be her. I know that.

I'm a good person, a great father, a faithful husband, a great progressive and if I'm imperfect on one thing, I guess this must be it.

I'm NOT THAT GUY in the last panel, goddamn it.

[ThomCat]

126. Yes it can be bridged.

If you had posted something like this first, showing that you understand the scope of the problem, instead of posting what you did, asking that the focus be changed instead to men who presumably don't do anything to harass women, then you wouldn't have received most of the responses you got.

But instead of making that effort to bridge that gap, you tried to change the subject in a way that belittled the subject. That, of course, is going to get a whole lot of feedback.

Bridging any gap is possible. Understanding the scope of any problem and contributing to any discussion of it is possible. But the first step is to stop being defensive about it, stop taking it personally, and TRY to bridge the gap. You didn't, until much later posts like this one. :(

[seabeyond]

370. i am so tired of the last decade of a damn chimp allowing men free for all over women.

study after study of junk science being fed to our men and young guys letting them know that they cant help themselves and have absolutely no control over themselves, their very brain, their own gd thinking process. that all of who they are goes back to 100k yrs ago controlling their behavior today ignoring any idea of evolving as a human.

once a week cnn puts out one of these garbage studies to let men know they are not capable of not cheating.

[ThomCat]

150. No. I think that anything that becomes so entrenched in culture

and across cultures that people think it is "human nature" or "it's biology" gets a free pass, especially when it is the behavior of the people in power.

Because men have power and women don't, men get away with this behavior and women have to put up with it.

Patriarchy isn't some fairytale word. It describes a real cultural phenomenon that truly does dominate our own culture and all other major world cultures. The behaviors of cultures that regulate gender roles and gender inequalities have little or nothing do do with inherent biology. Biology is an excuse, if anything.

[TheMadMonk]

181. Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. I am simply saying that we must acknowledge...

...the existence of the inner "pervert" and work from there on bringing it under control. Not demand that that "pervert" inside cease to exist as a precondition of opening negotiations.

It is human nature. It is biology. And NO it should not get a fucking free pass. And I am getting sick to fucking death of people trying to put those words in my mouth.

It must be acknowledged, and it must be addressed in terms of what is, not wishful woolly thinking.

One such unfortunate truth is that patriarchy IS the natural ground state of humanity. And when you do look at things in the context of a tribe of one hundred or so, inherent biology does figure a great deal in determining many many traditonal gender roles. One big problem is that what works for 100 does not necessarily work so well for 1000, 10,000 or a million people living together. Or it contiunes to work in a fashion, but only at a greater and greater cost to the individual.

I am not saying that we should give in to the inner beast. I'm saying that any solution that does not first acknowledge the beast's existence AND that it is there to stay is no solution.

We are rational beings. We are able to consciously modify our behaviour to an enormous degree. However, we are also very lazy creatures, and without good reason (and reasoning) to do otherwise, we all to often take the easy path of doing as we wish, rather than as we should.

[ThomCat]

184. Patriarchy is NOT natural. It is cultural.

It is an enforced power imbalance that men benefit from, that victimizes women. There is nothing natural about it.

Just like racism is not natural, and homophobia is not natural.

Every type and system of prejudice has appeared to be natural to people who benefit from it at one point in time. But they are all just culturally accepted prejudices. All of them.

I dare you to try to preach your pseudo-scientific nonsense and mumbo-jumbo to a Psychology professor, or a Social-Psychology professor and see how quickly you get laughed at.

[Name removed]

280. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[eridani]

188. Nothing wrong with the thoughts. It's the actions that count n/t

[craigmatic]

53. I was just on a dating site. It's pretty much the samething. People are so crass.

[ismnotwasm]

75. Yup

Sums up the reason I adore the Holla back movement;

Holla Back NYC empowers New Yorkers to Holla Back at street harassers. Whether you're commuting, lunching, partying, dancing, walking, chilling, drinking, or sunning, you have the right to feel safe, confident, and sexy, without being the object of some turd's fantasy. So stop walkin' on and Holla Back: Send us pics of street harassers!

Some great stories in there
http://hollabacknyc.blogspot.com/

[Swamp Rat]

92. k&r

[JNelson6563]

93. This thread is a nightmare.

Both sides have valid points. It sucks to be subjected to verbal sexual harassment, very true. Also true is the fact that many men would never treat women that way.

I think it's so easy for all of us to agree, sexual harassment is an evil we should work to eliminate. As in "work together" woman and men who have respect for women.

Julie

[Swamp Rat]

97. "work together"

:thumbsup:

[Brickbat]

100. I have to say it's gone better than I might have feared, but that just might be because I've been

monitoring it all day and trying to respond to people who don't get it, and I'm in a mood to educate a little bit.

[ThomCat]

101. Men who immediately get defensive and say

"pay attention to me! I'm not the problem!" are never likely to ever be part of the solution.

They are too busy wanting to be admired and appreciated to ever sit down and talk about the problem seriously.

Taking the problem seriously means talking men who are the problem without getting defensive and saying "pay attention to me! I'm not the problem!"

[lukasahero]

112. I think I've figured out the disconnect

The guys here think the women here are loving this comic because we see them as the cat-callers.

I think the women here are loving the comic because we see the guys here as the guy in the last frame. (i.e. - kind of clueless about what it's like to be a woman.)

The guys I know would never harass women on the street. They do however, very often minimize what that experience feels like as a woman ("I would LOVE for women to talk to me like that!")

That's when we feel dismissed on top of harassed. We want the men who would never cat-call us like that to take our feelings about it seriously.

[Matariki]

122. Bingo. +1 Exactly.

I think the women here are loving the comic because we see the guys here as the guy in the last frame. (i.e. - kind of clueless about what it's like to be a woman.)

A lot of this thread proves your point.

[Mad_Dem_X]

206. EXACTLY.

We want the "good guys" to stand up and disavow this kind of ugly behavior, take it seriously and not just shrug it off.

[seabeyond]

371. that would be a pretty damn big start. nt

[Matariki]

119. The OP doesn't imply that all men treat women that way

which makes the reaction interesting.

Is it possible for women to relate their own experiences without it being self-referential for men?

That cartoon shows a very real experience that many/most women contend with on a constant basis - can't it be talked about without it being about 'all men'?

[boppers]

540. Several of the longer sub-threads used that kind of generalization.

While the OP does not, some sub-threads went there.

[potassiumnitrate]

94. Yeah, right. As if women don't want men to find them attractive

Give me a break.

[Swamp Rat]

95. Welcome to DU!

:hi:

[Brickbat]

96. Because yeah, when the first thing you say to a complete stranger is that you want to fuck her in

the ass, that's all about finding her attractive.

Give me a break.

[ismnotwasm]

103. There is a difference between respectful admiration

And the nasty-ass bullshit men say to woman on the street.

[ThomCat]

104. What the hell does that have to do with being harassed.

Women have a right to choose who they talk to. Women have a right to a safe environment. Women have a right to respect.

In any environment where men can demand "You will deal with me because I said so" it is a very short step to that guy invading their person space. That is often a very real threat. And if that happens, will a woman have to defend herself from a guy? That is often a very real worry.

Men don't have to live their lives worried about being sexually assaulted, and then getting blamed for it as if we did something to cause it.

But, seriously, there is no defense for harassment. None. It cannot and should not be tolerated.

And the fact that every time someone is harassed there is the very legitimate fear that it could escalate into something worse and more dangerous means that it ALWAYS needs to be taken very seriously. It is never something trivial or funny that can be just blown off.

[potassiumnitrate]

107. OOPS...

I meant to reply to this:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=9062677&mesg_id=9062920

My reply still stands, though.

[uppityperson]

260. Being harassed does not = being told we are attractive. Compare...

"Suck my cock" vs "you look beautiful"
"smile! you're so pretty" vs "how are you doing?"
"damn, sexy, you've got a fat ass" vs "You are looking really nice"
"I'd fuck the shit out of that" vs ""

Can you at all see the difference?

[potassiumnitrate]

324. Yes, I can. I'm sure you can too!

A couple of those "good ones" are in the cartoon. :rofl:

[seabeyond]

401. there is a certain posture men use when they are not getting any. showing their vulnerability

it is sad. sometimes i can feel sorry for them, mostly i understand why they are not getting any.

[Matariki]

120. Potassium nitrate?

Is that used to start flame wars?

[LostinVA]

197. Nice user name

[Starry Messenger]

113. Do we have BINGO yet?

Thank you for being brave enough to post this cartoon. Talking about feminism on the internet is like covering yourself with porkchops and running through a field of lions.

[ThomCat]

114. We definitely hit a couple of those

in different variations. :P

No bingo though.

[lukasahero]

115. Can I even tell you how many times I've looked for this?

Thank you! (Downloading to pc to have it on hand for the rest of my life!) :)

[Starry Messenger]

127. Doesn't it rock?

I'm not sure who made it originally, but I found it here today: http://thegenderblenderblog.wordpress.com/2009/05/18/anti-feminist-bingo/

[Brickbat]

128. I know -- like I said, I hesitated to do it. But I was in a mood today, and really, that cartoon is

just too fucking awesome to keep to myself.

[ismnotwasm]

158. I love that one

I like this post from Comrade PhysioProf as well.

Of course it's directed toward those guys who wonder onto feminist blogs, which DU is most definitely not, and start telling us all about it, but it's a handy little guide just the same.


http://scienceblogs.com/isisthescientist/2009/05/comrade_physioprofs_handy-dand.php

You're a d00dly d00d. Everyone around you since birth has been praising you for sharing your thoughts, opining on topics far and wide, and generally taking fucking action!

You have just visited a feminist blog, have read a post and/or some other comments, and your d00dly opining d00d brain lobe is pulsating like a motherfucker with all sorts of extremely important d00dly things to share with the laydeez. Will you get your sorry d00d ass handed to you on a fucking platter? Or will you be a tolerated visitor? Comrade PhysioProf is here to share his tips with you on avoiding d00d ass platter handitude!

(1) If you are leaving the first comment to a post, you are almost certainly fucking up.

(2) If you are using the words "men", "boys", "fathers", or "sons", you are almost certainly fucking up.

(3) If you are using the words "should" or "useful", you are almost certainly fucking up.

(4) If you are telling people that talking about this, that, or the other issue is fine, but also asking them what they are doing about this issue, you are almost certainly fucking up.

(5) If you are complaining that by being "mean", people that might be allies are being turned off, you are almost certainly fucking up.

(6) If you are asking what you can do to help, you are probably not fucking up.

(7) If you are being told that you have said something offensive, and you indulge your immediate (and understandable) defensive emotional reaction with statements like, "I didn't mean anything by it" or "you are overreacting", you are almost certainly fucking up.

(8) If you are being told that you have said something offensive, and you suppress your immediate defensive reaction, think about what you have been told for a while, genuinely apologize, and attempt to learn from what you are told, you are probably not fucking up.

(9) If you are talking about how important your grandmother, mother, sister, wife, daughters are to you, you are almost certainly fucking up.

(10) If you are pointing out how attractive/not attractive a woman is, you are almost certainly fucking up.

(11) If you are talking about the experiences of women you know and distinguishing them from experiences of women being stated directly on the blog, you are almost certainly fucking up.

(12) Everyone possesses unearned privilege. The only relevant questions are What kind? and How much?

(13) The fact that you don't intend to exert unearned privilege doesn't mean you aren't doing so.

(14) If someone calls you out on assertion of your privilege, your dick will not fall off.

(15) Women will get along just fine without your input. If you are entertaining and funny, they might tolerate your presence.

UPDATE: I would like to clarify that my use of the phrase "fucking up" was intended to mean "behaving like a spoiled, vicious asshole". My own privilege prevented me from seeing that this intention was not well executed, and that it had the effect of making this post sound like a guide book for d00ds to deal with the curious bizarre customs of those wacky feminists. I apologize for that.

This was not intended as a guide to fooling women into thinking you are a tolerable person. Rather, it was intended as a partial guide to how to actually be a tolerable person.

[ThomCat]

159. Didn't something very similary to that

get posted in our own feminism forum a years or so ago? :)

I don't think it was exactly this though.

Very funny and exactly right though.

:)

[ismnotwasm]

170. Maybe

I think it was a link to this one though, but who knows? I like this blog a lot, he tackles all kinds of topics.:hi:

[Starry Messenger]

166. LOVE!

:thumbsup:

[boppers]

542. If you post about gender-related issues:

(1) If you are leaving the first comment to a post, you are almost certainly fucking up.

(2) If you are using the words "men", "women", "boys", "girls", "fathers", "mothers", "daughters" or "sons", you are almost certainly fucking up.

(3) If you are using the words "should" or "useful", you are almost certainly fucking up.

(4) If you are telling people that talking about this, that, or the other issue is fine, but also asking them what they are doing about this issue, you are almost certainly fucking up.

(5) If you are complaining that by being "mean", people that might be allies are being turned off, you are almost certainly fucking up.

(6) If you are asking what you can do to help, you are probably not fucking up.

(7) If you are being told that you have said something offensive, and you indulge your immediate (and understandable) defensive emotional reaction with statements like, "I didn't mean anything by it" or "you are overreacting", you are almost certainly fucking up.

(8) If you are being told that you have said something offensive, and you suppress your immediate defensive reaction, think about what you have been told for a while, genuinely apologize, and attempt to learn from what you are told, you are probably not fucking up.

(9) If you are talking about how important your grandmother, grandfather, mother, father, sister, brother, wife, husband, sons, daughters are to you, you are almost certainly fucking up.

(10) If you are pointing out how attractive/not attractive a man, woman, two-spirit, or multi-gender is, you are almost certainly fucking up.

(11) If you are talking about the experiences of women, men, and others you know and distinguishing them from experiences of women, men, and others you know being stated directly on the blog, you are almost certainly fucking up.

(12) Everyone possesses unearned privilege. The only relevant questions are What kind? and How much?

(13) The fact that you don't intend to exert unearned privilege doesn't mean you aren't doing so.

(14) If someone calls you out on assertion of your privilege, your dick will not fall off, your pussy will not seal up, your ass will not implode.

(15) Women, men, and others will get along just fine without your input. If you are entertaining and funny, they might tolerate your presence.

[Matariki]

117. Fucking hell. That cartoon was every day of my life from 12 - 45

Believe me, it leaves a kind of emotional scar. You have to create serious character armor to deal with that - and that character armor can get in the way of normal social interactions sometimes.

I would come home from a walk to the store just FUMING mad - and the boyfriend would just make it a whole lot worse when he'd tell me not to let it bother me. It made me want to see him walk a gauntlet of assholes every day of his life so he'd know how it felt.

[ThomCat]

129. I'm sorry.

:(

I wish more people understood how destructive this shit is.

I wish more people HERE understood how destructive this shit is.

I wish more men were actively against it, not just paying lip service to it harassment being wrong, but really against it. I wish men were willing to go to even slightly inconvenient lengths to fight sexual harassment and bullying.

That alone would make a huge difference.

[Name removed]

141. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ThomCat]

155. Who said anything about wanting a knight in shining armor?

Is that your answer to systemic harassment?

Lone women should stand up and, all by themselves, and prove that women are powerful enough to physically confront men?

Even though men are typically more physically intimidating than women?
Even though men typically target women who are alone and in vulnerable situations?
Even though men often do this when they have an an audience, so they aren't alone but the woman is?

How is that a solution? :wtf:

You are asking women to escalate harassment into physical situations, where they are very likely to get hurt, and then who would YOU blame when they get hurt or sexually abused as a result?

Women don't "claim to be so independent these days." I don't even know what the hell that means. Women are organizing and fighting for equality. There is a hell of a big difference. Can you understand that difference?

As for independence, whether it be single moms who are forced to be independent, or single unmarried women choosing to live alone, or any other example of independence, so what? What do you have against women living their own lives and making their own choices? Why would that offend you?

[Matariki]

168. What a meaningless post.

You have no idea what you're talking about. Shit, I've studied martial arts, my partner expects me to protect him in physical danger. Do you suggest I head kick every asshole that verbally harassed me? Or even wasted my time 'confronting' them when all I wanted to do was get from point A to point B? Dumb, dumb, dumb. You need to 'walk a mile in other peoples shoes' before being so glib.

Although if you're over 80, I forgive your antiquated thinking.

[Matariki]

164. I don't hold all men accountable for that experience, by any means.

Most men I know are awesome. Some forms of sexism are just so ingrained into our culture that they seem 'normal'. It's usually hard for people to comprehend it unless it happens to them.

Thanks for your post. Really.

[ThomCat]

317. I guess I hold "all men" more accountable than you do.

As a man myself I have that option. I can expect more of us. I think we should be doing more.

We definitely aren't doing enough to end sexual harassment and violence against women. In fact, as a whole, we aren't doing a damned thing except merely claiming to be nice guys. :(

[Sparkly]

140. Me, too...

For a while I hated leaving my apartment (in NYC). It was horrible.

[Matariki]

169. That's so sad. I'm sorry.

I really thought NYC was the worst place outside of Italy for that kind of garbage. I went to college in Rome, the only thing that helped was my Italian wasn't that good so it was easier to ignore.

[Beacool]

153. Most women have had to deal with these types of comments at one time or another..

We mostly ignore them. I've heard far more explicit comments than the ones in the cartoon. Aside from those that think they have a right to grope you.

I would say, though, that the majority of guys are not so crass. Although, most men like to look and think that they are being slick and that we don't notice. Please.....

:eyes:

[Evoman]

171. We should invent some kind of surgery to give women Wolverine claws.

Even things out a bit.

[HEyHEY]

176. Yes, we're SOOOOO horrible.

So horrible that I forget how horrible all men are. How we victimize everything we touch. I think I'll go slit my wrists so I don't continue polluting the word with my manliness.

[ThomCat]

178. Not more of this shit again.

:eyes:

Jeebus H Crisp!

Where does that cartoon say ANYTHING about all men? ANYTHING?

It makes a statement about how common harassment is. And it is TRUE that this harassment is common. If you care to dispute that, feel free. But nothing in this implies that it is universal.

If that somehow makes you feel insecure, that's your personal problem.

That last panel makes the statement that even men who are not harassing women may not understand the seriousness of the harassment. You just proved the point. Congratulations!

I'm giving you credit for NOT being one of those harassers. You're welcome.

Now that the cartoon has been explained to you, how about contributing to this conversation in a constructive way. How about talking about the very real epidemic of harassment women have to deal with, or why so many men do it, or why so many men usually don't understand it and don't help end the harassment or offer support? :)

[HEyHEY]

179. Bullshit, that kind of stuff is designed to attack men

Only we aren't allowed to say that here cause men have no fucking rights on DU. It clearly shows a woman walking through a world of perverted men and is trying to portray all men in that light, including the woman's dim-witted husband at home. I'm all for women's rights and I believe they are still getting fucked over in many ways, but this cartoon offends me. It makes me want to isolate myself from those who believe in the same things I do, and you say I need to be constructive? This cartoons divides, it doesn't unite.

[ThomCat]

180. You're kidding, right?

Men are under attack here at DU? Men? :rofl:

If you see anything in that cartoon implying that it represents ALL men then that's just YOUR interpretation, and it's seriously flawed.

"I'm all for women's rights"

How seriously can you be an ally if you can't even tolerate a discussion of harassment that women face every single day, as portrayed in a simple cartoon? If you get this defensive and offended instead of being constructive, and if if you are going to turn the discussion around to attack insist that men are the ones under attack instead of women, the you are part of the problem, not an ally helping to find a solution.

That cartoon does not divide. That cartoon ILLUSTRATES an existing problem. You are the one being divisive.

Seriously, you think MEN are under attack here at DU? :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[HEyHEY]

189. Oh, and women on DU are completely repressed?

I'm a man, I find this offensive. WHo are you to tell me I'm some kind of asshole to be offended? If the tables were reveresed this wouldn't happen.

I"m simply telling you my feelings. I find that cartoon, offensive. ANd through work, I've done a shitload more for women's rights than many on DU have done with there sexist statements that paint all men in a bad light. IF you wish to argue with my being offended you need to open your mind.

[superduperfarleft]

199. You're offended by women bringing up the very real issue of street harassment?

Are you also offended on behalf of white people when black people talk about racism? Are you also offended for straight people when GLBT people bring up homophobia?

I just don't get why this simple cartoon, offered without comment, has driven at least two male posters in this thread to respond with just vitriol. And it's clearly driven others over the edge, judging by the plethora of deleted messages in this thread.

[HEyHEY]

213. I'm offended by the way it was brought up.

Maybe you don't get why this cartoon sparked the response it did is because it's actually YOU who doesn't "get it"

[superduperfarleft]

215. How was it brought up?

The OP posted a cartoon. There was no comment. Then several men proceeded to freak the fuck out.

I think it sucks that this thread is littered with subthreads of indignant men as opposed to people actually discussing the issue.

Should threads about racism always be qualified with all the good things that white people do? Should threads about homophobia always be qualified with the good things that straight people do? If no, why should a thread about sexual violence towards women go out of its way to make men feel better, when they're are almost invariably the perpetrators of what the OP is attempting to address?

[HughBeaumont]

218. Except a comment like "Men just don't get it, do they" isn't really discussion material, is it?

What sent me flying was the fact that everyone just rah-rah'd this comment and, in turn, would get all "HOW DARE YOU" huffy when we didn't just shut up and agree. This thread was, from the start: "Men, PLEASE JUST DON'T COMMENT. YOU DON'T GET IT AND YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND EVEN IF YOU SAY YOU DO. Just leave it be. You aren't ON this island."

They didn't want correct responses or answers, they wanted wrong ones, which they would then proceeded to dogpile on. And some of the responses were just downright lousy and inflammatory. It was a test that very few of us would be able to pass no matter how progressive we say we are. I'm not the goddamned enemy here.

This is why I just stay the hell out of these kinds of things. Every red flag told me to just stay out of it and I went in it anyway. No more.

[superduperfarleft]

219. So the brave men here have completely shit up what could've been a good thread

Because they got, pardon the expression, their panties in a twist about one comment.

Seriously, look at it. Half this fucking thread is the men whining about that one comment. If I were OP, I would've thrown up my hands and walked away (she may have already done that). There's been little decent discussion, just a bunch of men going, "Yeah, well what about MY ISSUE?!!!!"

Many men don't get it, and that was the point of the cartoon. From the looks of this thread, the cartoon is right.

[HughBeaumont]

222. I get it. You just have fun on that island.

The cartoon is really supposed to be about bullying, which genuinely sucks no matter WHO is doing it or WHO the victim is. No one ever stops and thinks that some posters on this thread who are for real making it completely about male cluelessness are shutting people out and dividing. The bingo 'toon, PhysioProf's list . .. I get it. Leave you alone. We're having fun on this island, you're not invited. BYE.

Guess I'm not on the same page.

[superduperfarleft]

224. It's not bullying, it's sexual violence. Something men don't have to live in constant fear of.

Just because someone points out a truth that might be uncomfortable doesn't mean they are being "divisive."

[ThomCat]

240. The Bingo and the PhysioProf's list... Obviously you DON'T get it.

Both are very polite ways of saying "If you are going to spew sexist shit, you're not helping. Don't come into any discussion about gender based harassment trying to be a macho male, exuding arrogance and ego, protecting sexist privileges without being willing to come down from that sexist ivory tower. Don't expect to spew the same old, same old and claim that you're somehow an ally. And if you do, don't expect anyone to believe that you're somehow really an ally. You may think you're an ally, but it's just lip service."

Rule number one for any guy in any discussion about gender based harassment and violence is leave your ego at the door. Stop making everything all about you.

[HughBeaumont]

243. Or better yet, just not come in.

Think I'll go with that.

[ThomCat]

255. You keep saying that, but you're still here.

I think you're just complaining at this point. And obviously you didn't bother to read the point about leaving your ego at the door.

[HughBeaumont]

259. If that's the requirement, I'll take the zero.

I stopped being a doormat around about the end of the first abusive fiance, thanks.

[Brickbat]

225. If that's what you got out of my OP and my subsequent responses, I better check my writing.

It's possible to empathize with bullying. I think it's possible to empathize with bracing one's self against street harassment all the time. I do think it's difficult if not impossible to fully understand it unless you've been subject to it because of gender, gender presentation, race, disability, or any other non-white, non-hetero-normative marker.

When a woman says, "I hate that I face sexual harassment every day," and a man says, "Oh I know, I was teased in college for having long hair," there is a gap in communication and understanding, and that's what happened on this thread. It has nothing to do with testing, shutting up, or islands.

[HughBeaumont]

231. Read post 116. That's TOTALLY not what I'm saying at all.

[Brickbat]

234. As I see it, you're saying that you're mad when people say "all men do X."

As a man who does not do X, you're mad about that, right? And you're mad because you feel like you'll never give the right answer.

There are no right answers for everybody, it's true. You'll always piss someone off. It's just the same as DU itself -- any thread can turn into a flamewar, because of people who get mad about sweeping generalizations on the one hand and no-compromise issues on the other. Gender flamewars get really down and dirty, though, because the very thing you feel attacked about -- being a man -- is the very thing women are talking about being attacked for -- being a woman.

[HughBeaumont]

237. Agreed.

If this post was one of the first ones, I wouldn't even have bothered with the venom. Understanding, concise, and a good rational response.

[Brickbat]

238. It's hard to tune out the answers that press buttons. I've gone after people ruthlessly on union

threads, I'll be the first to admit it. I have learned a ton about feminism and how to talk about it on message boards, but I've also experienced some of the most toxic infighting, circular-firing-squadding, useless navel-gazing and endless round-and-rounding about it too, with both men and women.

[HughBeaumont]

249. I remember totally losing it on this one in the Economy forum -

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=114&topic_id=69094

:rofl: Except that was a case where I'm not even sorry or understanding.

I have a social worker wife. Every day I get to hear tales on how shitty men and women are to their kids and each other . . . DV, drug abuse, incest, criminal records, repeat offenders . . . it's a mess out there. Unfortunately, as she said, if there's one area that thrives when the economy is bad, it's hers. I think it's going to make everyone meaner and more criminal if it gets much worse.

[ismnotwasm]

251. Why?

Because Offers an olive branch as it were? Do you feel that the women on this thread need to make men comfortable about a gendered issue that women have little to no power over? Can't you do that for yourself, not being in the asshole category?

My husband understands the cartoon, laughed his ass off at the irony actually. He didn't try to tell me 'all men aren't like that' He already knows some are, some aren't and he's securely in the latter category. He's always willing to discuss things like sexual harassment, and I'm guessing what he feels is simalar to what you feel, probably a bit protective over women and indignant over harassment and furious and disgusted about things like violence and rape.

But he doesn't try to make it about him. He listens to me. I listen to him. We have a conversation. Easy.

[ThomCat]

253. That is what is pissing me off on this thread.

Guys who insist that they are allies, but they insist that everything has to be about THEM. Everyone has to accommodate THEM. Everyone has to make THEM happy and comfortable. Everyone has to discuss an issue in the way that THEY think is appropriate.

The issue is WOMEN being harassed on a nearly routine basis. The final issue is that even men they love and who claim to care for them often don't really understand what that harassment is like for WOMEN.

Yet the men are twisting this to make it all about making THEM happy and comfortable. UNLESS WOMEN ACCOMMODATE THEM WOMEN ARE DOING SOMETHING WRONG. :grr:

which guys in the cartoon are delivering Exactly that same message?

[HughBeaumont]

257. Wow.

Even when I try to come to an understanding . . .

It's STILL. NOT. GOOD. ENOUGH. NO answer is the right one.

Thanks for proving MY point. UNbelievable. This is truly a lost cause. NO I don't think that way, but what's the point of explaining anything to you? You already have a pre-determined view of who I am - a misogynist asshole who shouldn't even opine on matters in which he has no understanding. Done. Get the last word in, as it seems SOOO important that you have to hijack a conversation you're not even part of.

[ismnotwasm]

263. Whoa

Dude, it was a serious question, perhaps poorly phrased. Ok lets try again without the anecdotal story. (I thought it might make you more comfortable or at least less angry)

Do you think women need to make men comfortable on gendered issues that women have little or no power over? Do non-asshole men need reassurance that they aren't dumped into that category to have a simple discussion?

[ThomCat]

270. You are bending over backwards to be kind and accomodating.

You are stroking his ego and doing everything to try to make him feel like a nice and good and welcome guy, and still it is not enough for him.

I don't think anything will be enough for him unless or until everyone on this board grovels and tells him how right he is and how wrong we were. That's what he's hoping for with his passive-aggressive B.S.

Either he gets it or he doesn't at this point. :grr:

[ismnotwasm]

273. I like to give folks a chance

;-)

[HughBeaumont]

275. Jesus, that's completely uncalled for.

You're not even in the ballpark. Seriously.

[ThomCat]

290. You keep saying that you shouldn't have come into this thread

and you keep being passive-aggressive, fishing for people to apologize to you, to make you feel better. It's not going to happen.

You're wrong. You've been wrong. You're still wrong.

Get over it.

You can either learn from everything that has been posted on this thread, or you won't. :shrug:

[HughBeaumont]

274. All I said was I liked Lyric's post. That's all.

I felt it was a good explanation for both sides on how threads like these should go. There really isn't anything more to read into other than that. Trust me on this.

And no, I don't feel females or anyone else needs to accommodate the uninitiated people that invade these threads to make them feel comfortable in any way. I'm not looking for anyone's approval nor am I anyone's enemy.

Yet at the same time, I'm not changing. I'm done doing that.

[ThomCat]

239. Actually, it IS what you are saying in MOST of your posts.

:(

[HughBeaumont]

241. Not your enemy. Please stop treating me as if I am.

[HEyHEY]

282. You may as well, Hugh

No one wants to hear a fucking thing that men who actually give two shits about sexual equalityh say. It seemes, despite our efforts, that we're all just a bunch of neaderthals.

[ThomCat]

294. Who are you talking about when you say

"men who actually give two shits about sexual equality?"

If you mean those of us who listen to women when they talk about what they experience, and don't keep trying to make it all about us, us, us. Then you're you're absolutely wrong. We have absolutely no problem being heard when we have something to say.

If you mean the couple of you who are trying to shit on this thread, who try to turn a discussion about harassed women into a discussion about offended men, well, who says that those are guys who really "give two shits about sexual equality?"

Or put another way, maybe you guys give your two shits, but I doubt you give any:
constructive time
organizational energy
ego-free input and supportive assistance

How much are your two shits really worth?

[mzteris]

336. I think the comment has been proven in spades in this thread alone. n/t

[HEyHEY]

281. Why are we "freaking the fuck out"? Ask yourself that

though I doubt you could even imagine

[superduperfarleft]

288. You're freaking the fuck out because you're the exact kind of man the OP is about.

Dismissive and incapable of realizing that the entire fucking world doesn't revolve around you or reflect your experience.

[Lilith Velkor]

299. Specifically, the one in panel #5.

[bettyellen]

352. yes, thank you

[Name removed]

362. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

361. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ThomCat]

295. Because everything is about you, you, you?

:shrug:

You're very comfortable with your Male Privilege and you don't want to examine it or give it up. "How dare women talk about any men without praising at least some men. They are REQUIRED to admit that Men are Wonderful! It's in the rules somewhere!"

[lukasahero]

190. Promise? eom

[Name removed]

191. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[lukasahero]

192. Not really

A bigot is one who treats members of a group with hatred and intolerance. My comment was specific to you, not your group.

[HEyHEY]

193. No, based on your hatred for one group.

[lukasahero]

196. What group would that be?

I asked if you specifically would keep the promise of your threat. How does that translate to hating all men? Trust me, dude, really - it was directed at you, not your gender.

[LostinVA]

198. I know lukashero well enough to know she is not a "man hater"

I don't know any women who hate men, even women raped and hurt by them, btw. I think that is nothing but an anti-feminist meme.

[HEyHEY]

203. I just get so tired of people telling me what I can and can't consider offensive

TO tell you the truth, it's making me not want to come here anymore. If I, as a man, see a cartoon that, while trying to raise awareness about a cause I believe offends me as a man, who are all of these people to tell me I'm wrong? As well, there were plenty of other men offended on this thread too. They were also told to shut up.

Honestly, I fear for the future of sexual politics if DU has any basis in what's going on in the world. I just feel there's always a thumbs up for people who want to make sweeping statements, and it's not cool.

I was one of those guys in high school who was idealistic and had no problem preaching respect for women. And I was't the only one, there actually was plenty of guys like me (That said it was the 90s) but it seems like now we're all lumped into the same group as the sons of bitches who whistle at 15-year-olds from passing cars. Gets me down.

[lukasahero]

210. No one is telling you not to be offended

We're suggesting you're reading the comic wrong. (I know, for you as an individual male, that's probably even worse.)

The point of the comic wasn't that all men are bad. It was that women face street harassment almost every day and when we come home not feeling great about it, the otherwise truly wonderful men in our lives don't understand how damaging it is to us.

I'm not accusing you or any of the guys in my life of behaving like the idiots in the first 9 frames. I am telling you that even my wonderful liberal husband that I absolutely adore, has said he wouldn't mind being treated that way which means he just. doesn't. get it. THAT'S the part I wanted to talk about.

Men who aren't subjected to the daily harassment don't understand that it is not the compliment you think it would be - it is threatening and intimidating and frightening and we just want the men in our lives to TRY and understand that. To care enough about us as human beings to listen to us. To know that we're not just bitches whining about how horrible men are because we're man-hating feminists.

[HEyHEY]

212. See, comments like your first sentence are what I'm talking about

Trying to insinuate we're all a bunch of cave-men. I find it offensive. And I'm getting so tired of it being tolerated at places like DU. And as for the cartoon. Men DO get it. That cartoon implies we don't. It basically says half the men on the planet are pigs, the other half are dumb. I find it offensive.

[lukasahero]

214. I think if you actually "got it"

you wouldn't be offended at the suggestion that not all men do.

Sorry but I'm done here. Think what you want.

FTR, suggesting you might be mistaken <> you're all cavemen. That kind of hyperbole is what's making this a conversation not worth having.

[Name removed]

284. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[superduperfarleft]

289. Exhibit A.

Please mods, don't delete the above post. It makes this subthread that much more illuminating.

[lukasahero]

296. Darn, deleted before I got to read it

Don't suppose you could PM the gist, could you?

BTW - thanks for your efforts here. It is encouraging to know that there are men out there who are not threatened by talking about improving women's lives.

[superduperfarleft]

297. I don't even remember.

Just assume it was some variation of "you fucking bitch" and be glad you didn't actually read it.

[lukasahero]

302. Well, it had to come to that sooner or later

See panel 5 in the cartoon. :)

[ThomCat]

246. The fact that rape and sexual harassment are STILL epidemics

and MEN haven't stopped MEN from STILL doing it, and men still let other men do it, and men still make excuses for other men doing it says that most men do still have a long way to go in understanding sexual harassment, sexual bullying, sexual assault and rape.

That doesn't mean that men are cave-men. That is an extreme. But it DOES mean that men bear responsibilities that men haven't been willing to shoulder.

We have to stop ignoring these issues, and we have to talk about how common these problems are, and we have to talk about we our collective responsibilities for these issues.

INDIVIDUAL men are innocent, but COLLECTIVELY we all have responsibility, and collectively we need to take this seriously and stop getting defensive. collectively we need to have serious discussions and work together.

But that can't ever happen when every time a discussion starts the discussion devolves into defensiveness and an an insistence that we ONLY TALK about how innocent most men are. That just continues to ignores the problem. WE ALREADY KNOW MOST MEN ARE INNOCENT. We don't need to NAME each of them (us)unless we have some defensive sense of guilt we need to relieve. I certainly don't.

In discussions about sexual harassment, bully and violence any secure man can just assume that the discussion are not about us personally and move on with the discussion. How hard is that to understand?

[Name removed]

285. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[superduperfarleft]

293. Where the fuck do you get off telling women what their "cause" should consist of?

[ThomCat]

300. Damn. I wish I had seen it before it got deleted.

:(

[HEyHEY]

364. Where do you get off telling me what, as a man, can offend me?

[ThomCat]

244. You preach respect for women?

But as soon a simple cartoon gets posted about the lack of respect that women really face, you blow your top demanding that MEN Don't Get Enough Respect? :wtf:

You claim that Men are getting bashed by women? :wtf:

Yeah, you are really the ultimate example of a crusader for womens rights. As long as YOU get to dictate to women exactly what they are allowed to say, and how they are allowed to say it, and what tone is appropriate. And you don't see anything wrong with that? :eyes:

[Name removed]

286. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ThomCat]

303. "Enough men"

So enough men express admiration for an option that automatically makes it right? It think I can find a hell of a lot of men who think that raping women is really cool. I just have to go surf some porn sites to find it. Would that make rape cool? Would it?

I don't think even you would accept that "enough men" is a good answer.

There are just as many men on this thread who think you are really full of it. Attacking women because you want your hand held, and you want to be soothed, because you want to tell women how they are ALLOWED to discuss an issue, and in what ways, using what methods and what language so that YOU WON'T BE OFFENDED?

:wtf:

That is just incredibly wrong.

How can you dare to consider yourself an ally when you want to be the censor for any woman who wants to discuss an issue that affects THEM?

How can you dare to call yourself a supporter or equality for women when you want to take away their ability determine for themselves how they can speak up about an issue? Should you set up a toll free phone number or a web site so that they can all contact you to get your permission before ever saying anything publicly?

Will you charge them a fee to get your permission to speak about sexual harassment and sexual bullying? Or will you be kind and tell them to shut up for free?

[lukasahero]

276. BTW - thanks for this

How've you been? I've missed you.

[LostinVA]

287. No problem!

[ThomCat]

242. She doesn't hate any group.

You are the one bashing. :(

That's really sad to see too.

[lukasahero]

277. :)

Missed you too. Thanks for your diligence with this thread. As always, :loveya:

[readmoreoften]

223. Do the "offended males" (no, not "all males") on this board grasp that:

(1) All males don't act like this--just like all white people aren't racist--but all males are responsible for standing up against injustice--just like all white people are responsible for standing up against injustice.

(2) There is a real difference between catcalling on a street--which is an aggressive act usually done to impress other males within a group, one that has little to do with "compliments"--and a REAL compliment. There's a real difference between a group of men shouting "hey nice tits" and overhearing someone say "wow, she's really pretty..."

(3) The degradation of women is a problem for men. Women used to make 66 cents for every dollar made by a man. The numbers have come closer over the years. But that's not because there's less sexism. It's because sexism has been used as an excuse to degrade whole fields of work--and now men are making less money too.

If all workers don't stand together and politically fight for one another's rights, we will all suffer together--regardless of race, color, or creed. Or sex/gender.

[Lilith Velkor]

228. You can say "not all males" over and over and over, and they'll still be "offended"

because they want to be. It's like they have oppression envy, or something.

[ThomCat]

247. "oppression envy, or something."

That might not be far of the mark. I think they thing women are gaining something by "claiming" to be oppressed. "How dare you benefit by claiming to be oppressed."

There really is a sense that women shouldn't ever benefit. By catching up to men, women are somehow getting more, and women shouldn't be allowed to have more. So the claim of oppression is to blame. Women can't be allowed to claim to be oppressed because they'll benefit from it!

[Starry Messenger]

261. This.

[FedUpWithIt All]

536. Do you behave in a similar way to the characters in the OP's comic?

If you do not than it is OBVIOUSLY not speaking of you. If it is offensive to you then perhaps you should direct your frustration to the perpetrators and not the recipients. It is after all the perpetrators who are giving the bad name.

If you do behave in a manner like the characters in the OP then please stop the defensive behavior and try and really listen to what the majority of women here are saying. It is upsetting. It often makes us feel threatened and belittled. We neither enjoy or feel flattered by it.

I really cannot see why this is such an offensive thing to some of the men here. It has to do with women and the type of men who seek to behave in a manner that makes women feel bad. Outside of these two demographics...:shrug:

[Zanzobar]

227. I've never seen it

I'm 49. Lived in Miami, Philly, Detroit, as well as some smaller towns.

I've never been with anyone who has done it, and never seen it on the street.

I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but this cartoon seems to stretch it not just a little over the top.

[Matariki]

235. *You've* never seen it, therefore cartoon is an exaggeration

So tell me, how do you breath with your head in the ground like that? A straw? An aqua-lung?

[Zanzobar]

236. I use anaerobic respiration

Maybe that's why I've never breathed heavily into a pay phone, or seen it, or heard it.

It could also be that some women have experienced it and I didn't see it. I allowed for that in my remark.

I have two sisters. I've never heard them complain about an event as is described in the cartoon.

They're both pretty good looking. Maybe I'll ask them about it the next time I talk to them.

On edit:

Come to think of it, I was in the Navy for four years. Not one time did I ever even see a sailor do it, here or overseas, and we were pretty goddam rowdy. I would think that if it were as bad as the cartoon depicts I'd have seen it at least once in my life. Again, I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but has anyone ever experienced the sort of abuse depicted in the cartoon?

Seems to be a little reductio ad absurdum going on.

[Matariki]

248. I have enough experiences to fill a book.

So do many women posting in this thread. But you feel fine just discounting all that because you've "never seen it". Great start on the board here. Sure you'll get a warm welcome.

Here, educate yourself: http://hollabacknyc.blogspot.com/

[Morning Dew]

250. Has anyone ever experienced the sort of abuse depicted?

Yes. If you read the thread you'll find examples.

Here's one that happened to me just a couple of months ago.

Please note that I am well into my 50s and 50 pounds overweight for my height.

I'm at work and driving my work vehicle, we have to wear uniforms that are designed for men and ours looks like someone's bad prom date from the '90s - french blue dress shirt and black slacks.

I'm at a stop light and a car pulls up next to me. I glance over and see a 40 something business type guy looking at me. He points to me and then to himself and then waggles his tongue in a lewd oral sex type motion.

I still hear the "hey baby" and "what's your name" crap fairly often.

It's all about degrading and intimidating women.

[ThomCat]

252. Odd, I see it often.

I've lived in 3 cities, 2 small towns and 1 suburb. It doesn't matter how large or small the place I've lived. From places with farms, to New York City.

I've seen it happen to women who were nearby who were alone, and I've seen it happen to women who were with me even though they weren't alone.

:(

[LostinVA]

264. Then you probably want to be blind to it

Especially if you lived in Philly.

[Zanzobar]

269. I suppose my memory could be faulty

I've forgotten things before. I've not lived a cloistered life. It seems to me that I would remember. I guess as I think about it, I remember one incident from 7th grade. One of my friends was purported to have grabbed a girl's muff during a tussle. I don't know if that falls into this category.

As an adult, I can't recall any incidents.

[superduperfarleft]

298. I live in Philly.

And if you've never seen it, you must have never ventured out of Chestnut Hill or something.

[Zanzobar]

307. It's been a long time

Over 15 years ago. I rode the trains and never saw any problems. I walked about half a mile to work. I walked through the underground market part of the way some days.

Every day for just about a year and never saw anything out of the ordinary. I saw panhandlers and homeless people, but they never bothered anyone.

I don't remember a single incident of harrassment in the morning or evening.

Maybe I was in the wrong neighborhood. Or the right neighborhood, depending on your point of view.

[seabeyond]

376. maybe they are just so unimportant to you, that when you do hear it, you really dont hear it

cause after all, sittin at bar with buddies and one says about the woman that walks by "i can do her" or "nice tits", or "nice ass" it is just him being a guy. you know. normal stuff. and really it is a compliment to her. so it hasnt really left an impression for you

[Zanzobar]

503. But we're talking about the cartoon

Saying, "That chick's got a fat ass" to my friend in a bar isn't exactly the same thing as screaming it across the street in an angry fashion, or grabbing a lone woman by the wrist and demanding she suck my cock.

There is no doubt men objectify women as do women, men.

That's not the issue. The issue is the severity of the depicted abuse in the cartoon.

[Maru Kitteh]

572. So the only question then is to what degree you are lying - to yourself and/or others.

[flvegan]

245. This thread has not gone well.

And that third panel looks like battery to me.

[Brickbat]

254. I have to say it went better than I thought it would.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

258. This thread has gone exactly as intended.

[ismnotwasm]

266. Wondered where you were

Late for the party boo.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

315. Nah, I've been reading the thread the whole time.

But I'm not going to feed the trolls.

[seabeyond]

378. ah ha...

i am surprised by you comment, but funny it is.

[LostinVA]

265. In VA, he would be arrested for that

And probably convicted.

[superduperfarleft]

292. What are you talking about, it's gone great!

Here's what the men have resolved for the women, so they needn't worry their pretty little heads any further. No need to thank me, ladies.

(1) Men are victims of (completely unrelated) crime as well, so women don't have any room to talk.
(2) Please don't start threads addressing the needs of an oppressed minority without devoting huge amounts of time trying to reassure the poor dears who make up an often oppressive majority.
(3) As a man, I've never seen this happen, so I don't believe that it happens anywhere.
(3) HOW FUCKING DARE YOU EVEN BRING IT UP!!!! WHAT ABOUT MEEEEEEEE????!!!!! YOU FUCKING PSYCHO BITCH!!!!!

Maybe after this thread is done, we heterosexual white males can get to the queers and tell them what they can and cannot be pissed off about.

[Starry Messenger]

301. lol, nicely summed up.

Your internets, would you like them wrapped?

[ThomCat]

308. Wow! That summarizes so much of this thread so incredibly well!

:rofl: :applause:

I wonder if the authors of the original posts will recognize themselves in your summary. :)

Good job!

[seabeyond]

379. i am liking you... lol.

i stayed out of this thread on purpose. and dammit, someone drew me in from another thread. has been interesting reading down 400 posts.

[demmiblue]

389. +1 (I am amazed at some of the reactions to the cartoon. Bizarre.)

[seabeyond]

403. i basically had the same discussion, right now, with white male brother on the issue of gays.....

same behavior, same justifications for dominance, same argument, word. for. word.

told him when i got to the put of him, the white male, having shackles put on him by the oppressed or minority to
shut. the. fuck. up.

that attitude disgusts me. literally makes me sick to the stomach. and that.... was the end of the visit.

[Mushroom]

268. The last frame... ew.

:puke:

[Mushroom]

279. Mumbling to myself...

So why is the woman's POV unnecessary to her street harasser and her partner? The woman's experience seems inconsequential to something greater going on between the two losers. Like Larry O'Donnell and Alan Simpson.

[ThomCat]

304. No, you are definitely not mumbling to yourself.

:)

The woman's POV is Unnecessary to the harasser because he is imposing himself upon the woman.

If she has a POV he is already intending to push himself over it. He is already intending that she will have to accommodate her POV to his. Her POV is irrelevant when he pushes his way in and demands that he accommodate herself to him. :(

[Mushroom]

367. Exactly

And her POV is unnecessary because her harassers and her partner share THE POV that she is in an enviable position. That speaks volumes.

[CBR]

278. This happens so often.

On campus where I work and go to grad school, all contracted employees who will be working on campus (doing construction, consulting whatever) have to sign agreements specifically against this behavior. This was in reaction to numerous complaints from female students. It is horrible.

[Nikia]

283. Most men seem to be like the man in the last frame

If you do understand that women are harassed and willing to stand up to harassers even if the harassers are your friends and the woman is a complete stranger, than you shouldn't be offended by this. The few men who I have met who have been willing to stand up to harassers aren't offended by this sort of cartoon or women complaining about men harassing or discriminating against them.

[Rex]

291. If only we lived in a world where we valued common courtesy and MANNERS.

I hate to bring up manners, but Earth would be a great place if we could all treat each other with a little more respect. I think it is the worth we place on the actual value of life verses defining another human being as a object that has no value, but for sex. MANNERS, not just for fish anymore.

[ThomCat]

305. I hate to contradict you on this but, one Important point:

Manners are often used as a way to put women at a HUGE disadvantage.

Women are often indoctrinated to be quiet and polite, and in order to be polite, in order to not make a scene, which would be impolite, women put up with behavior which they should never have to put up with.

When only one person is forced to be polite, manners become a chain that is used to keep someone imprisoned.

[seabeyond]

382. well this is true too. when my 12 yr old niece had a 40 yr old waiter rub his crotch on her

while he was filling her water, and my friend did nothing cause she was afraid, i clued niece in that being nice and maintaining manners was not an option. i only wish i had been there so i could show her that speaking up and out, boldly and forcibly was the better choice.

[Rex]

514. Well I mean manners not from the 17th or 7th century.

Perhaps just simple respect for another sentient lifeform. Keep it in modern and general terms, so to speak. I understand what you mean, maybe I should have clarified a little better.

[seabeyond]

381. +1. therein lies the problem and is going to have strong reactions for youth of both genders

as this escalates.

[MellowDem]

306. Seems to be much rarer in my age group...

that is, the college age group. Not to say you won't get drunk asses. But you rarely see that kind of cat-calling, even with all the drunken debauchery going on.

And on a side note, I have gotten cat-called on the street by women. Whistles and ow-ows, nothing disrespectful per se like anything in the cartoon. Not trying to toot my own horn or anything, but I DID feel good about it. Of course, as a male, I'm not really threatened by (most) females. In our society, it would be perfectly acceptable for a woman to cat-call a man with no threat to security felt by the man (in almost every case). But nowadays, if you are a man around my age, it's best not to look at strangers who are women, or smile at them, or say anything to them in passing, in certain circumstances because you know they are threatened by you. Late at night, walking down the street, etc. Even if you are trying to be disarming, it can come across the wrong way. Just look at the world of babysitting. I remember my sister's job as a babysitter. She got jobs with people she didn't even know and got paid well for mostly watching TV. I had a job as a lawn mower. Hard work, low pay. I wanted to get into babysitting, but guess what? As a male, I'd be more suspect to people. A stranger alone with children? If it's a woman, it's OK, but if it's a man, you're putting your children at risk!

If anything, I think this cartoon shows the over-the-top and often paranoid view of the world we as a society have nowadays. All men are possible pervs on the street. And maybe I'm going out on a limb here, but the cartoon seems to be a rather EXTREME case, even though it presents it as if this is something that happens often and is the way of the world.

Also, I'd have to say that I personally know no guys that would be like the guy at the end there. Sure, they would love to know women thought they looked nice, but they wouldn't want to be subjected to what the woman in the cartoon goes through, which is something else entirely. And if their girl went through that, they'd be pissed as hell at the guys that did it.

And there is a kind of cat-calling that, in certain circumstances is fairly respectful and that women love. I've seen it. It can be harmless if done right.

So, in conclusion, no, this cartoon doesn't say it all. All it says is that this cartoonist has a really sad, paranoid, unrealistic view of the world. It's hard to argue how this cartoon does not present the world as a dark, scary place, all Fox News like. The resemblance is canny actually.

[lukasahero]

309. You might want to see post 278

where the poster notes that it happened so often that workers are required to sign documents before working for the college...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=9062677&mesg_id=9069778

Then you could go on to read the response of women on this thread who tell you that it does indeed happen. But you probably won't.

[MellowDem]

314. 2 different personal experiences...

is all this tells me. :shrug:

But my personal opinion is that this cartoon is a much darker view of the world than it actually is.

[superduperfarleft]

321. Many women on this thread have said otherwise. Perhaps you should listen to them? n/t

[MellowDem]

519. I listen to them...

and realize there are people out there who have had similar experiences. But I also know a lot of women who have not had those experiences at all. So my opinion still remains that society at large is not as the cartoon portrays, and that it portrays a rather extereme case, to say the least.

[Brickbat]

323. Your personal experience should now include a bunch of women on this thread telling you their

experiences are much different than yours, and you can consider changing your world view or not from that.

[pinboy3niner]

348. Reading this thread, I have the same reaction to many of the posts:

I feel like shouting, "SHUT UP AND LISTEN."

In our polarized society, listening seems to be a lost art... :(

[Brickbat]

357. I find it really, really sad that when someone says, "This hurts me. This bothers me," the first

reaction is not, "Oh crap, you're hurting? Tell me more. Let's make this world better." More often than not, it's one of the following: "Hurting sucks. Did I ever tell you how *I* hurt?" or "You're overreacting" or "That looks like it hurts, but I'm sure other people hurt more" or "I wish I could hurt like that!"

[pinboy3niner]

358. Is 'egopomorphic' a word?

If it's not, it should be.

:hug:

[MellowDem]

527. How ironic... nt

[HEyHEY]

383. Wow, now you're jumping on this guy who actually AGREES with everything you're saying

But is merely suggesting the cartoon is a bit overly cynical, proving my point that you have no interest in anything but swarming any man who comes on here and has an opinion that is the slightest bit different from your own. He even admits that while he found being whistled at flattering he understands why a woman wouldn't like it...but you won't even fucking listen to him, none of you will, you're just looking for a reason to attack.



Way to further divide the cause.

[Brickbat]

388. When he said he thought the cartoon provided an unrealistic view of the world, he wasn't agreeing

with me. It is realistic. So I told him so.

[cleanhippie]

398. So regardless of how much someone agrees with you,

if they do not agree 110%, they are wrong and you told him so.


Brickbat is 100% right and if you disagree even just a bit, you are a misogynistic asshole who refuses to see the world through her eyes. Got it. Thanks for clearing that up.

[seabeyond]

404. when a man, who does not experience, tells a woman, it does not happen

when in fact, every woman on this board has experienced it, then yes, we can say he is wrong.

[cleanhippie]

409. Got it.

When the anecdotal evidence is strong enough in a small and limited demographic, then the assertion is true regardless of what the data MAY show when taken in context of the larger population as a whole.

Does that about sum up what has happened in this thread?


No one is discounting the personal experience of the women in this thread, or at least I am not.

Most of the men in this thread have stated that they have not personally, nor have the women in their lives, experienced personally what many women in this thread seem to have. Without any or very little evidence to support that the experiences of the women in this thread are indicative of the female population as a whole, then the anecdotal evidence is very strong for BOTH sides to be correct.

Again, no one, at least not me, is saying that anything someone said happened to then did not in fact happen. All I am saying is that from MY perspective (and it seems to be the same as many men here) is that the behavior exhibited in the cartoon is NOT the norm for the country as a whole. Maybe we are blind and just do not see it, that certainly is a possibility, but without hard evidence or data to back that claim up, all we have are our differing perceptions.

[seabeyond]

411. that is about par of a white person saying they have never seen nor experienced, nor any black

friend of their experience racism in the u.s.

or the heterosexual saying

i have never seen nor heard or experienced any homophobia nor has my gay friends experienced homophobia and bigotry in this nation.

the simple of it is

bullshit

[cleanhippie]

413. Great, thanks, Im glad that we cleared that up.

I'm just an asshole and you have the correct answer for everything.

[seabeyond]

417. correct answer for this anyway. and you being an asshole? a possibility.

but i dont know you so i cant say. i will trust you on your own assessment

[cleanhippie]

422. Yeah, I see that any further rational discourse with you is an exercise in futility.

[seabeyond]

424. hm. ya. nt

[cleanhippie]

427. Hey, at least you admit that.

I will count that as a win.

[Maru Kitteh]

573. You just keep telling yourself that.

I, for one, would not be shocked to discover that being very wrong and "counting it as a win" is a fairly frequent behavioral pattern for you.

[Brickbat]

414. Women don't say this happens just in this thread.

They say it in class, at work, to each other, to their families. "Women" is not a small and limited demographic.

Data DOES show that it happens frequently. Depending on the studies I've found in the last few minutes via google, between 50 percent and 100 percent of women surveyed said they had been harassed on the street by men they did not know. That's too much.

Maybe we are blind and just do not see it,

Which, yeah, is what women are trying to tell you. But yes, sometimes women don't talk about it with the men in their lives -- often because they get the reactions seen on this thread.

I showed Mr. Brickbat this thread last night. He was moved by the cartoon and interested that there were so many responses. He said, "Well, YOU haven't had that happen more than that one time you told me about, have you?" And I told him yes, that it had happened a lot more times than that. I surprised myself and him by saying that.

These things happen so fast. Someone yells by going by in a car, it's done in less than five seconds. You can let it wreck your day or you can put it aside and go through your day. Maybe a little bit of both. In any case, when women who have experienced that see a cartoon like this -- which, in my experience, brings me right back to those instances of harassment -- they react strongly.

[cleanhippie]

418. You may be right.

And if so, then you, and other women, need to speak up and LET US KNOW WHAT IS HAPPENING! We are not mind readers, we do not have super powers of perception.

I told him yes, that it had happened a lot more times than that. I surprised myself and him by saying that.

How could you expect him to react differently when you yourself are an obstacle to his knowing more about the situation?

[Brickbat]

421. I didn't expect him to react differently. I expected him to listen and respect my experience,

both of which he did.

Women are letting men know what happens in this thread, and you yourself can see how that is received.

[cleanhippie]

426. Well, when someones perception is challenged, it can take time to change a mind.

I am having my perception challenged, and I will be paying more attention in the future to see if your perception is more acute than mine. You may be right, and I have said that all along, but I need more evidence than just your assertion (and the assertion of a few women on this thread) that my perception of reality is flawed. I hardly think that is unreasonable, do you?

[Brickbat]

438. Of course.

What kind of evidence are you looking for? Studies, links, personal stories, witnessing it with your own eyes? Is there a quota of incidents that would be a useful number to reach before your perception is changed?

I find it interesting, to, that you use the word "perception" when I am using the word "experience." I don't want to keep on you, but these very fundamental kind of language shifts are part of the reason women feel belittled when talking about these things with men.

I am not trying to talk down to you -- I'm sure it can feel like you're being attacked on all sides (word choice? really?).

[cleanhippie]

442. Yes, yes, yes and yes.

Yes to all of your questions. Thats how we get a full accounting of what is really going on, we get data from everywhere, not just a few places.

I agree that word use can be a hindrance, and I try to take that into account when arguing or debating with someone. The word they choose may not be the BEST word for the occasion, but I try to put it in context to what has already been said and see if I can get the gist of what they are trying to say. Or I just ask them to clarify. Communication is the key to understanding and dealing with this issue.

I think that the lack of communication on this thread is what has lead to all of the sillyness going on. Some are unable to express themselves, some are unable to comprehend what is being said, some are willfully ignorant, some have an agenda, some are right and some are wrong. In the end, finding common ground from which to fight from is the most important. It is unfortunate that many of us are unable to concede even a little bit in order to unify and strengthen our overall position. This happens in many, many threads here on DU, its not exclusive to this one.

[Brickbat]

443. Well then, here are some links, studes, stories and experiences.

http://www.stopstreetharassment.com/streetharassment/statistics.htm

http://www.sexualharassmentsupport.org/stories.html

http://streetharassment.wordpress.com/

http://www.polisci.upenn.edu/programs/theory/Fogg-Davis.pdf

It's a lot of reading, but I hope you follow through.

[cleanhippie]

447. I will, thanks.

And your response has been MUCH more helpful in bringing us all on the same page than most of your counterparts in this thread.

[Brickbat]

448. I'm not looking for a cookie.

Your responses to them are your responsibility, and their reactions to you are not my responsibility.

[cleanhippie]

450. And I'm not offering you one.

Just pointing out what I see as a better approach than others have taken.

[seabeyond]

423. hm... lets see, what is happening on this thread. women speaking up and men shouting them down

that really, it is not happening.

another... really?

[cleanhippie]

425. Who is shouting anyone down?

For fucks sake, disagreement on minor points is NOT shouting anyone down.

If anyone is shouting down anyone, its you!

[seabeyond]

429. if you consider telling women this does not happen, but IF it did it is wrong as minor

then that is a pretty major issue.

you have absolutely no desire to be a part of the solution. you embrace this misogynist behavior and it is clear. there are a handful of men that play this game. and it is just a game. my guess

you are the man that feels it is your right and privilege to do this to women and have very little respect for women.

[cleanhippie]

431. When did I EVER fucking say that?

You have repeatedly just made shit up out of whole cloth or purposefully misconstrued my words to fit your talking points.

How can anyone have a fucking rational conversation with you when you want anything but? All you want is to be "right", nothing more.

[lukasahero]

434. (Actually, on the internet ALL CAPS and exclamation points are considered shouting) eom

[cleanhippie]

435. When all caps are used, yes.

USING ALL CAPS IS SHOUTING!

Using caps on one WORD is adding emphasis.


See the difference?

[lukasahero]

437. "LET US KNOW WHAT IS HAPPENING"

Okay?

[cleanhippie]

454. 6 out of 50 words.

for emphasis. hardly qualifies as "shouting someone down", so no, not okay.

[lukasahero]

433. "LET US KNOW WHAT IS HAPPENING"

Um, that was the point of the cartoon. And the response of the guy in the last frame? Often the reaction we are met with. That, or the outright hostility on display in this thread.

[Mushroom]

508. Hard evidence, perspective...

Critical mass for change.

Sounds bleak for women.

Let's hope the cartoon opened some eyes because wouldn't it be a sad day in America if we had to take action in the form of women-only accommodations one village, town, city, county, and state at a time. That's no way to live either.

[Brickbat]

410. Don't put words in my mouth.

If someone's wrong, I will tell them. I did so.

[cleanhippie]

416. Let me correct your statement.

"If (I think) someones wrong, I will tell them. I did so"

And thats your right. I just hope you are as receptive to being on the other end when someone THINKS you are wrong.

[Name removed]

546. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MellowDem]

518. I won't change my worldview...

because of an unrepresentative sample of people I don't know online having different personal experiences. Not to mention, I personally know more women who have never been harassed like this and would think this cartoon is not representative of society at large. I have no doubt that some women have had similar experiences. But I am just talking about American society in general. It is only my opinion, and can't be proven. I like to have proof before changing my worldview, or else I am not convinced generally by random personal experiences of others. My point is not to change other's worldviews, but rather just to discuss things and maybe learn other points of view from it. It is also unlikely that my point of view will be changed on an internet message board. I am open to changing my views, but I need proof to really consider it. There isn't a lot of hard data on something like this. It's subjective.

[seabeyond]

520. have you taled to your women specifically about this. asking for verbal acknowledgement

or denial. because women dont talk about this. nto often with each other and almost never with men.

or are you assuming the women in your life have not experienced this because they have never said anything to you

[MellowDem]

525. I have talked with them all about it at some point or other...

and have heard all their stories. It is possible they are lying or not telling me something I suppose. But not much I can do if that is the case. More to the point, it's pretty likely that as a guy I would have at least seen this stuff going on a lot more than I do. I have no doubt it does happen, I have seen it. But to the extent implied by the cartoon? I am not convinced. I will say that a lot of it seems to be the environment you are in in my experience. And I would think the college environment would be one of the worst for that. Maybe it's because girls in college generally know to walk in large groups when going out, so you won't see that kind of threatening sort of harrassment as much as the more harmless though sometimes disrespectful stuff. Hell, guys know to walk in groups as well, or you might get beaten up and your wallet stolen on the way home.

[seabeyond]

528. so you have seen it, just not to the extreme of a cartoon. geez. ok. so it isnt not that extreme

but then they dont show any butt grabs, tit grabs, hand between the leg sticking fingers up vagina grab... so maybe it isnt extreme enough.

but you have seen it

so where is the argument?

[MellowDem]

530. The argument is that...

it happens relatively rarely and is not the part of everyday life for most women in the US. Chances are that almost every single woman has been sexually objectified at some point, hell, the same could be said for men, but I'm just talking about the level portrayed by the cartoon. I don't personally know any guys who would say stuff like that to women, or any guy who would be like the one in the last posting. I know that they do exist. But the cartoon seems to portray it as though it is a "male" societal problem, rather than just an asshole problem. I think that all of the elements shown in the cartoon are pretty clearly opposed by society at large. This is a battle that has been won. The people who act like that are seen as assholes and in some cases can have suits brought against them. Doesn't mean that it still isn't a problem, but the perception by males in society does not fit what the cartoon seems to imply. The perception of men in the cartoon is, IMHO, wrong.

[ThomCat]

316. It's probably worse among college age men

especially in any situation when alcohol is involved. :(

But that doesn't mean that it doesn't happen a lot even when guys are sober.

Even after I was done with school I still did volunteer work for years that kept me on and around college campuses. Especially NYU, St Francis, Polytech, and Hunter College here in NYC. I'd see and hear situations where women were treated like objects, and cat-called. Sometimes I'd be able to do something about it.

You don't make any friends by butting your nose in and telling guys they are treating women like shit. But it has to be done. I've done it.

Being called names and told that I have no sense of humor by other guys is a small price to pay for helping to stop worse harassment.

I recommend that every guy poke their nose where it doesn't belong and stop this kind of harassment when they hear it. It often doesn't take much to shame guys into shutting up.

[MellowDem]

521. I know it still does happen...

and good on you for doing something about it when you see it. Really, the danger in my age group is not guys dissing you on the street, but more the Rothlisberger "I'm going to rape you while your drunk" thing, which in my mind is a much more serious matter. I knew quite a few girls personally who were raped in college. None of them were the stranger on the street violent rapes that many people imagine, but rather people they knew pretty well. They were drunk in every case. And none of them reported it. The guys figure because the girl is drunk and they don't say no it's all good. And not to be anti-Greek, but all of the episodes I know of happened in fraternity houses. I think there is sometimes a sort of mutual assent in those kind of organizations to bad behavior. There usually isn't a lot of self-regulating going on among the frat members as much as a "we cover each other's butts no matter what" mentality. Not all fraternities of course.

[seabeyond]

523. ok, the issue i see. the rapes, and not stranger rapes, and frats.... group mentality

oking it with each other. none of the guys have the guts to stand up to, go against the group. ONE person. if ONE male said, no way, that is bogus shit, no.... then wouldnt happen. wouldnt be group sanctioned. but why are those comments, suck my dick, show you titties, nice ass..... why are they bad. why are they along with the rape. it is the start of the dehumanizing. the disrespect. make her a thing without feeling. it has to be created, so they can get to the point of raping a drunk, passed out girl. she can no longer be a human to them and this is one way guy/men get there.

[MellowDem]

526. Well, the guys are usually pretty drunk too...

but there are definitely guys who view women as objects regardless of their drunkeness. But that's the thing. I rarely see the "suck my dick" "show your titties" kind of behavior. There usually are other guys there that know the girl too. As it is, most of the women are more than willing, once they get to a certain point of inebreation, to show off their physical aspects. And the guys as well. One of my friends would take every chance he could get to show off his abs, somehow tearing off his shirt at every party, which I thought was kind of funny and pathetic at the same time. Same with some of the girls who flash or whatever. None of them would do that stuff sober. I guess self-respect is kind of the last thing on people's minds at that point.

The cartoon just seems kind of old-school in a way. Guys who talked like that in my age group would be considered to be douchebags and tools. And even the douchebags and tools know not to act like that to get what they want, which is to get laid. Usually they're pretty smooth talking actually.

[seabeyond]

529. this is good to know. i have two boys, getting older and older. we talk about it often.

(i am going ot bed soon, so tired. but i will do this post.)

he doesnt do it. he gets the whole thing. but we raise it to respect of people. no genderist crap. jsut respect. period. makes it easy. he is in highschool. this is his second year. what i have been observing, watching the kids, is it is the best... from what i am seeing, the most pure in genders treating each other as people. that is one of the reasons i believe it is learned and not innate or biological. i watch group of kids, masses, and i am not seeing the same behavior from the males towards the girls as i see in older men.

sad huh

i have talked to son, and told him, i am not seeing what i see in the world outside of highschool. i am seeing the guys walking, and talking and playing with girls, but i am not seeing the leering, and taunting ect....

he tells me his group fo friends, none of them do. his cross country, most all the guys are respectful with girls. jsut a few. but there is a group of kids that do this. the majority dont.

the men that have done it to me all my life, are the men that in no way would get any, anyway. the do it cause they know they dont even kinda meet standards, and they do it to feel like a man, to dominate and humiliate.

the drinking and stuff you describe i think is normal teen, young 20 behavior. rape.... never

glad to hear guys speak out against.

thank you for your post

i am off to bed

[Name removed]

319. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[entanglement]

322. So true. In conservative societies, men are forbidden from speaking to "strange women"

altogether, and that (still) does nothing to stop women from being victimized by men. It just happens in other, often more violent, ways. Men with sexist attitudes and their enablers are the problem, so I don't know why some of my fellow male posters are so offended at this cartoon.

[HEyHEY]

365. Becasue it sparks hatred towards all men

That's my issue with it. IN the last few weeks especially men have been under attack on DU. Not men who sexist assholes, but ALL men. The reason being because there's a group of women out there who basically think they can just go around slandering the entire gender because of the actions of some of them. It would not be tolerated with any other group of people and I"m sick and tired of sitting back and being expected to listen to this crap anymore.

It also is typical of the issues with the american left. When I see a cartoon like this one it makes me feel like I"m not welcome to join a cause I believe in. And it's actually hard to remember that most people who agree with me are not a bunch of bigots as well.

[pinboy3niner]

343. Thanks for sharing this AWESOME cartoon, Brickbat!

It's a shame that you had to feel any hesitance about posting it, and that your fears were justified. Still, it looks like some of the discussion, at least, has been productive.

Frankly, the defensive reactions surprised me. I'm a male, but I didn't feel the least bit defensive. I took the cartoon to be about the experience of WOMEN, period. It's not attempting to make any generalizations about men at all.

As a man, I'm grateful to the cartoonist for providing this reminder of something that I know is the truth--it's just not always at the forefront of my mind as it is (necessarily) for women. Thanks again to you for sharing it. :thumbsup:

[Brickbat]

390. You're welcome.

Thanks for the support. And for getting it. :)

[ceveritt]

356. I'm a guy, so ...

... I can never understand what that would feel like.

But, I think I would feel precisely the way the woman looks in each panel. Hurt. Angry. Mostly hurt.

That is some of the most criminal shit men do to women. Unfortunately, it's not actionable. That is, unless one's carrying a weapon.

I've long wondered, why are men such assholes? Not that they have a corner on the market, but still.

[HEyHEY]

366. IS this cartoon okay?

[soleiri]

375. Sure

However,

It's interesting that he is a skinny weak-jawed fast food worker in Canada who is failing to attract beautiful women.
While in Japan, he's fashionably dressed, muscle bound with a strong jaw-line and is now attracting beautiful Asian women.
Is that really the point you want to make?

[HEyHEY]

380. No the point I wanted to make is exactly what you said at the top

It is completely seen as okay to piss on young, "weak" men in our society. You even did it in your post just now. The cartoon makes it look like all women are like that, which they are not. The cartoon in this OP makes it look like all men are like that, which we are not.

This cartoon goes over the same theme over and over, using different men each time. If it were one or two guys the same point would have been made, but the artist shows many men, giving the impression that all men are like that, except the dumb ones, of course.

[seabeyond]

384. as a woman, i am not offended. per your thread i said that behavior is ugly. wrong.

and i have never done that to a man, so i dont take responsibility for it. i also acknowledged that i have seem girls, not women do this. and i didnt like it. and i say said something to the girls when they did it. and today, i say something to to the kids i am around of either gender if they behave this way.

that is my part of the solution

[HEyHEY]

547. Wel, seabeyong, I've never grabbed a woman's ass on the subway

And when I said I was offended by that cartoon (as a man) that didn't fly, so why the hell should your excuse?

[seabeyond]

553. i said i am not offended. you say you are offended. you take it personally, i dont

i know there are girls that do this to men. i dont like it. i would call a woman on it. i dont do it.

you are offended by the cartoon. you dont do it. ok.

do you see the two statements.

i what excuse am i making. i understand there are women that do it. i dont like it. i say something. i dont see the cartoon attacking me.

[soleiri]

391. How did I make it okay

to piss on young "weak" men?
by pointing out how the cartoonist drew the characters, I was not condoning the behavior or the stereotype. I was pointing out that the cartoon made no sense whatsoever,
If the cartoonist had drawn a skinny guy in Canada not getting women and then the same skinny guy in Japan getting women, then it would have some merit.


btw, I like skinny geeky men.

[cleanhippie]

395. Great point!

And excellent catch on the response to it. Well done.

[seabeyond]

405. except, the dishonesty of it. when this subject is brought up, women side with the poster

saying there are ugly women (mostly girls) out there that treat men poorly. note: we recognize and acknowledge. we say it is wrong. we do not take it personally as if poster is saying all women. since we dont do it, as a matter of fact stand up to the female that does do it, we know we are not a part of the problem, but part of the solution.

[HEyHEY]

548. Dishonesty? How is it MORE dishonest than a cartoon depicting a woman

Who cannot go through a day without, what is it? 30? Men harrassing her?

[Mariana]

551. The cartoon doesn't depict "a day" of harassment at all.

Have you even looked at it? Some of the scenes are in daytime, some are at night. She's dressed differently in each panel. It clearly is taking place over many days. The point is that it's a regular occurrence. YOU misread it if you think it means to illustrate that every man a woman encounters harasses her, or that most do.

[seabeyond]

554. the dishonesty is the suggestion that women are handling your cartoon the same as men are

handling this cartoon. yes, there are women that do this. no i am not offended by the cartoon. no i dont think you are talking about me. yes i would say something to the woman.

that is not the same as this thread with some mens reactions.

and who said the toon was depicting 30 a day. here clothes are different in each scene. i took the message thru out her days. not all in one day. hence the different clothes to specifically let it be known not all in one day. the absurdity that would be.

[Withywindle]

368. Oh yeah, been there for the last 25 years (particularly intense this morning).

Some guy grabbed my buttcheek during the morning commute. :mad:

When I was younger it was SO much worse, to the point where I used to fantasize about carrying a gun and blowing the balls off any of the MANY men who made crude comments about my tits and ass and pussy. I've been hearing that since I was 13. I guarantee you, I have NEVER felt anything for any man who said that kind of shit except violent wish-fulfillment. It certainly never led to a date.

[pinboy3niner]

372. I don't blame you for your fantasy

In a just world, your offender would face charges of sexual assault (with the prospect of having to register as a sexual offender, if convicted).

You don't deserve that kind of abuse and disrespect, and I'm sorry that you have to be subjected to that.

Thanks for your contributions here. Despite the apologists, the sharing of the women here is likely to do some good.

[Withywindle]

374. The point is, it's not uncommon.

The reason women relate to this cartoon so much is that we all go through this harassment experience, and the cycles of fear and rage, pretty much every day.

And we get furious because the men in our lives (who never see this, because it's ONLY aimed at women) deny it and minimize it!

[pinboy3niner]

377. That's why we men need to LISTEN

I related to the cartoon as a man only because I know that this abuse occurs, but I'm not as aware of it as someone who faces it every single day. For me, it was an important reminder--and I credit the cartonist for doing a wonderful job in driving the point home.

It's a great cartoon, and I feel sorry for any man who misses the point and proceeds with some kind of defensive BS.

[cleanhippie]

393. So why not carry mace and spray him in the face when he touches you?

Thats assault and you are entitled to self-defense.

[lukasahero]

397. Why not speak out against the men who are doing the assault to make them stop

rather than blaming a woman who has been assaulted for not stopping it?

[cleanhippie]

402. Am I blaming anyone?

Nope, but thanks for putting words in my mouth.

And if I were on that train and witnessed that, I would have punched the guy in the face right then and there, consequences be damned.


Why is it wrong to ask why one cannot be more proactive in their own defense?

[seabeyond]

406. there are many reasons why. i dont think you give a rats ass to why. and are you suggesting

men saying suck my cock, warrants a spray in the face? or that a female would not be arrested for that? and of course a woman is not going to spray a man that says that to her. the issue still exists.

[cleanhippie]

412. I do give a rats ass and I am not suggesting any such thing.

Here is the post I responded to...
Some guy grabbed my buttcheek during the morning commute. :mad:

When I was younger it was SO much worse, to the point where I used to fantasize about carrying a gun and blowing the balls off any of the MANY men who made crude comments about my tits and ass and pussy. I've been hearing that since I was 13. I guarantee you, I have NEVER felt anything for any man who said that kind of shit except violent wish-fulfillment. It certainly never led to a date.

The poster said she wished she could carry a gun and "blow the balls off.." so I asked why not carry mace and when SOMEONE GRABS YOUR BUTTCHEEK (as she said happened TODAY) then mace the shit out of them for assaulting her?

I mean, unless we ALL take a stand against this assault (and thats what this particular instance was) then the problem will never be solved.

[seabeyond]

415. have you thought that thru. you think that is a realistic solution to the problem? really?

she is on her way to work. a man grabs her butt. she has to then stop, juggle in purse to find spray, tell guy, while huntin spray to wait, stand there, dont move.... postion spray and then squirt him one in the face, and not get anyone else in the crowd????

really

that is your solution

[cleanhippie]

420. Yes, it is.

Thats what seems to be (but not necessarily how YOU described it) a very good way to handle it.

What your solution to this scenario?

[cleanhippie]

428. What is your solution to this scenario?

How would YOU have handled this situation?

[seabeyond]

430. you give an unrealistic solution adn ignore all reasons it is and expect a conversation.

a waste of time.

[cleanhippie]

432. No, YOU gave an unrealistic solution.

My solution was quite plausible. Your description of it was not. And even if it was a bad solution, so what?


HOW WOULD YOU HAVE HANDLED THE SITUATION THE POSTER SAID HAPPENED TO HER THIS MORNING? WHAT WOULD YOU HAVE DONE?

Don't dance around by beating up on my solution, just tell me what you would have done.







On edit: as was pointed out, all caps is shouting. Yes, I am shouting my question at you because you are ignoring it on purpose.

[seabeyond]

436. when i was 12 standing in lunch line, a guy thought it cute to stick hand inbetween legs, push up

vagina with fingers, i responded by turning around with lunch tray and putting on throat pushing him back against the wall, choking him and yelling at him to NEVER touch me again

and i was humiliated

but thanks for asking

[cleanhippie]

439. And you responded correctly, IMO.

I'm sorry you felt humiliated, it should have been the boy who felt that way.



Nonetheless, you still have not told me what a better solution to the incident that happened TODAY to the poster above is. What would you have done TODAY?

[Name removed]

441. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

444. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[seabeyond]

446. ya, i hate men. married, two sons i take care of. two brother, a father

that i take care of and two nephews cause none of them have women in their lives, and i am it for them.

right

hate those men.... and boys... well hell, all males. even the dog.

[cleanhippie]

449. How would you have handled the situation that happend TODAY?

Enough already, this is getting us nowhere.


How would you have handled the situation the poster experienced TODAY?

[seabeyond]

452. i am an aggressive person. i dont htink to be intimidated. i would have turn on him, shoved and

yelled clearly and bolding to keep his fuckin hands off my fuckin ass. and would again be embarrassed thanks to the fuckin asshole.

and would have experienced all i did at 12, all over again and for the same reasons that you are still clueless about because you dont get it.

BUT

i am clever enough to recognize MOST women are not as aggressive as i am. most women are intimidated. as much as i hate they are, they are.... sociatal conditioned learn. be quiet, be polite, be nice.

[cleanhippie]

457. Ok, so I really don't get it.

I think that your response would be the correct one. What else should/could be done? I really do not know how to respond to your embarrassment or having to relive what was obviously a tragic experience for you as a girl, but I fail to see how that has any bearing on what the reaction should be when found in the scenario that happened today.

You have two separate issues going here. I am not qualified nor do I want to deal with the first (your experience when 12) but telling me that my opinion on how to handle the second situation is wrong when it is the same as what you would have done, makes no sense to me. I don't know what message you are sending to the woman that had this happen to her today.

[seabeyond]

460. did you ignore all that i said about how women tend to be. and men tend to prey

on women that they see as this person. did you ignore how most women arent as aggressive as i. that most women arent raised in a house full of men and cant be intimidated. that most women cannot respond in that manner.

did you ignore ALL that reality.

[cleanhippie]

478. No, I did not ignore it at all.

I just don't know what to do about that. I cannot help what men and women "tend to do". I can only speak my mind on what men and women SHOULD do in certain situations.

What has me the most confused is how my response to what happened to the woman today was not adequate for you, yet if in that situation yourself, you would have acted in a similar fashion. You seem to be contradicting yourself for the sake of trying to prove some point to me. How is what I suggested as an option for the woman that was assaulted today wrong? What would be your suggestion to her on how to handle the situation she found herself in?

[seabeyond]

485. i am a woman that would turn and be aggressive and even i KNOW i cannot tell a woman

how she must respond in this situation, because i am not the norm.

you can tell a woman what she "should" do but a woman cannot do that so what is the point. using spray is a ridiculous suggestion. not going ot happen for the reasons i pointed out and for other reasons beyond that.

but

you still are looking at this from your eyes, how you would respond even when you say you are clueless, dont know how it feels, and dont know because you are not a woman

then you say, teach me, i am listeing

yet you have not "heard" what i am sayin

cant give you anything else.

[cleanhippie]

499. I have not "heard" because you havent said anything.

At least anything that makes sense to me. You have been all over the map and contradictory.

[seabeyond]

501. ok, well, then, let it go. nt

[cleanhippie]

480. Perfect example of you purposfully misconstruing my words.

I never said you "hate men", far from it.


hatred of men who dare disagree with everything you have to say.

THATS what I said and its not even close to "you hate men".

[seabeyond]

487. ah geez... so i hate men taht dont agree with me. again, hubby two sons father two brothers and

two nephews.

k

do you THINK they agree with me on everything...

of course nto

do i HATE them

of course not

better

[cleanhippie]

500. You actions and words in this discussion lead me to believe otherwise.

[lukasahero]

467. A lot of people are telling you - listen

Listen to women who are facing these situations and empathize. Pay attention to her feelings.

Listen to the guys around you and what they say about the women in their lives and the women they don't know. If they comment about the fuckability of women who walk by - say something to them. Don't just let them get away with it. If enough guys tell other guys that they won't stand for the behavior, maybe more guys would stop behaving that way.

As for what we women are supposed to do when confronted with this behavior on the streets, please listen to what I'm about to say: we can't win for losing. If we yell at the guy, we get one of two reactions (and please, again, listen - I know this because I've lived it): 1) the guy laughs at our anger ("lighten up sweetie, it was just a joke" or "oooh she's mad now" or "what are you going to do, hit me?") or 2) the guy gets mad and we are put at greater risk. If we do nothing, then we're not sticking up for ourselves...

I suppose I could carry a gun but it seems a little extreme to shoot a guy who's rubbing up against me on the train. I'm 5'2", 110 lbs soaking wet so I don't really have the haul off and belt him option. And if I did make a physical move and didn't connect, would he punch me back? Could he kill me if he did? Or would he just wait until I was alone and attack me?

So we come here asking for the "good guys" to help us. And you can see how well that has gone.

[joshcryer]

468. "the guy laughs at our anger"

Let's see them laugh at your indifference. They'll sulk away embarrassed of their idiocy.

[seabeyond]

470. indifference? not be bothered with whatever the male may want to do, be submissive?

that is about the answer i expect.

i dont know, the gal was per your story and your brother got arrest, yet girls fault. kinda the... women cant win scenerio for you

[joshcryer]

472. Indifference = submissive?

Synonyms: apathy, casualness, complacence, disinterestedness, disregard, incuriosity, incuriousness, insouciance, nonchalance, torpor, unconcern

[seabeyond]

475. disregard, complacence, apathy, nonchalance, unconcern, all is submitting to

i really dont see flipping hte bird ad indifferent. i also don't see it accomplishing anything. this is not about changing the females behavior, it is about addressing the males behavior. the whole perspective that you take is the male is gonna do it, so suck it up and figure how to deal with it. not, what the male is doing is an issue at all.

[lukasahero]

479. He doesn't want to change our behavior

He wants to tell us how we should feel.

"Synonyms: apathy, casualness, complacence, disinterestedness, disregard, incuriosity, incuriousness, insouciance, nonchalance, torpor, unconcern"

These aren't behaviors, they're feelings.

[seabeyond]

483. every post of his is an excuse for the behavior of these men. pretty damn obvious.

women should submit.

not a hard one for me.

well, submitting certainly would be. recognizing what the poster is saying isnt so hard, lol

[joshcryer]

486. Every one of your posts to me is a dishonest characterization of what I have said.

[joshcryer]

488. I was talking about expressions with regards to a "no win scenario" where you claim you can't...

...express anything. I was giving you an expression that most women use to get the clowns off their backs.

Sexual assault is another matter, as all who sexually assault people should be reported. People who allow sexual assault to go unreported are doing a disservice to society.

[joshcryer]

484. Do you think that being angry at males being stupid actually has a deminishing effect? Males must...

...be diminished for them to grasp this. Anything else lofts them on a higher ground. "HAHA that stupid bitch was annoyed did you see that? HAHAHA"

What are they going to do when you aren't showing them that they got anything for their trouble?

And yes, flipping the bird can most certainly be indifferent.

[seabeyond]

do you think flipping them off is gonna do anything? how baout when your friends do it you call them

out and tell them to quit being an ass.

you think that might actually be the effective way?

how about you raise your sons to know that women are people and should be treating as such and not tit and ass.

[joshcryer]

491. My friends don't do it. I see random people doing it mostly.

I of course will raise any of my children to respect other people, that goes without saying.

When random people do it I don't say anything unless I determine that the calls are unwanted. Most women who don't want any sort of call out will make it known.

There was one guy on the strip on the French Quarter who was harassing some random chick, had her up against the wall, that was not allowable so I put my arm against the wall and said "how does it feel?" he pushed me and backed away and walked away.

I can't say how to deal with drunken male behavior to be honest. I don't think any level of respect taught to males is going to change their visceral behavior when inebriated.

[lukasahero]

471. Oh yawn

I covered that part too - "if we do nothing, we're not sticking up for ourselves" and the abusive behavior continues...

[joshcryer]

473. No, indifference is not "doing nothing" it's expression an emotion that something else is nothing.

In this case, a sarcastic flip of the bird and a casual walk away with a smile on your face is far more damaging to the hoodlums than getting angry and being annoyed.

[lukasahero]

476. Really?

You think I should feel calm and possessed enough to "casually flip the bird" and smile at a guy rubbing his dick against me on a crowded train?

Do you see anything remotely wrong with telling me how I should feel about this? (Did you read the comic that started this thread?)

[joshcryer]

482. I have already explained what I think about sexual assault. It should be dealt with swiftly.

The person rubbing their dick on you should go to jail.

You can of course feel angry because someone verbally says something you dislike, however, you were talking about what your response should be, basically saying it's a no win scenario. I gave you an answer but you are already dismissing it.

[joshcryer]

453. There is no reason to allow sexual assualt.

If a female grabbed my ass I would not consider it assault of course.

[seabeyond]

456. "allow". and no, males have no personal space adn all are welcome to yank on their package

cause after all they are all about being sexual animals....

rollin eyes

[joshcryer]

458. You did not read the original poster, I think. She claimed someone *grabbed her ass* unwantedly.

This goes far beyond verbal abuse and harassment (which is also illegal and should be dealt with appropriately).

[seabeyond]

461. you ignore my response on the reality of your post. nt

[joshcryer]

465. Oh, your straw man? I've yet to encounter that slutty type that'd yank my package...

...but it depends on who they are whether or not it'd be a welcome advance. I personally am not in to slutty types. But I have a friend who loves and adores them and really digs women who come on to him and do things which he could call sexual assault easily.

[joshcryer]

451. Did you call the police on that man? You were sexually assaulted.

Likely a felony. That person should be off the street.

[seabeyond]

455. ya and she will say hey dude wait here a mintue. let me call the cops.

and the cops would say wtf.... a hand grab? and what do you want us to do. what proof do you have. and the guy would say, sensitive bitch, i tripped was shoved, my hand just barely touched but really i didnt mean to.... or, i was not even around the bitch

how is this solution working for you

[joshcryer]

459. No, the police would take that miscreant down, very quickly.

At the bare minimum he would have had to take appropriate behavior classes. Two of my brother who are socially awkward and can't tell when their advances are unwanted have gotten in trouble with absolutely no witnesses and had to take therapy classes.

YOU CANNOT PUT A HAND ON ANOTHER HUMAN BEING WITHOUT EXPRESS PERMISSION.

[seabeyond]

462. h ha ha. right. there is what should be and then reality. nt

[joshcryer]

464. Don't believe me? Try it sometime. I know it's just not worth it to go to the police...

...all that time wasted and all. But a sexual predator should not be allowed to walk the streets.

[joshcryer]

466. my older brother was hancuffed and removed for putting his hand on a shoulder

Now, for me, I was shocked, and I'm glad I'm not a touchy feely person because I might have done that before without realizing it could be sexual assault. He'd been trying to get this girl to go out with him forever, and she never told him to fuck off. He finally figured it out when she had the campus police take him away because he put his hand on her shoulder.

Of course, he claimed that she never indicated that she didn't want any sort of attention, but I find that unlikely. If only by glancing away or not initiating conversation, really subtle things, but it had to have been there. In any event he hasn't learned how to interpret the clues, and I'm afraid he's going to harass some girls in the future because of it.

[seabeyond]

469. you embrace a gal grabbing your ass, you call gals whiners when they complain, you tell a story

with your brother being a victim adn you want to be taken serious in this conversation.

[joshcryer]

474. Where did I say "gals were whiners when they complain"? I expressly said that the police should've..

...been involved. The person grabbing ass should not be on the street. The person should be in handcuffs going to jail for a couple of hours before they set him a low bail where he is forced to undergo several weeks of therapy and court stuff.

My brother is not a victim I said it as much. You have some twisted way of reading exactly the opposite of what I said.

[Withywindle]

498. I just wanted to get away. Luckily I did.

I should have but I was just too stunned.

[Cali_Democrat]

373. That's kind of a strange toon. n/t

[pinboy3niner]

386. 'Strange'? How? What is 'strange' about it?

[MrScorpio]

387. Bad parenting of boys has serious consequences nt

[seabeyond]

407. bad parenting. a society that pushes the male right and privilege to this behavior

and pushes that females of all ages need to just accept. a reinforcement for that bad parenting.

[MrScorpio]

408. Exactly.

It all goes hand in hand

[CBR]

419. I just don't understand what the problem is with this

cartoon. Plenty of women on this thread are telling their stories, discussing being victims of this type of behavior. Please listen to what we are saying. It happens all of the time. This is not a broad brush attack on men. I am happily married. I have been with my husband for 9 years. He is a great man. I still am victimized walking down the street with the comments and noises. It is completely disrespectful and needs to be condemned -- especially by men.

[thelordofhell]

440. Emilie Autumn----Thank God I'm Pretty

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XwmKqZGORm8

Thank God I'm pretty
The occasional free drink I never asked for
The occasional admission to a seedy little bar
Invitation to a stranger's car
I'm blessed
With the ability to rend a grown man tongue-tied
Which only means that when it's dark outside
I have to run and hide can't look behind me
Thank God I'm pretty

Thank God I'm pretty
Every skill I ever have will be in question
Every ill that I must suffer merely brought on by myself
Though the cops would come for someone else
I'm blessed
I'm truly privilaged to look this good without clothes on
Which only means that when I sing you're jerking off
And when I'm gone you won't remember
Thank God I'm pretty

Thank you God
Oh, lord
Thank you God
Oh, oh and when a gaggle of faces appears around me
It's lucky I hate to be taken seriously
I think my ego would fall right through the cracks in the floor
If I couldn't count on men to slap my ass anymore
I know my destiny's such, that I'm all stocking and curl
So everybody thinks that I'm a fucking suicide girl

Thank you God
For the occasional champagne I never asked for
The occasional admission to a seedy little bar
Invitation to a stranger's car
I'm blessed
With the ability to rend a grown man tongue-tied
Which only means that when it's dark outside
I have to run and hide can't look behind me
Thank God I'm pretty

Thank God
Thank God
Thank you
Thank you
Thank you God!

[Brickbat]

445. Being conventionally unattractive doesn't mean you'll avoid street harassment.

I'm guessing that's your point, but I'm not sure.

[joshcryer]

463. Ahh, mating rituals.

In my experience most of the idiots who call girls out are being clowns, and trying to be a big man and whatnot, most women typically mock these idiots and don't give them the time of day (rather than sulk off all angrily, they'll flip a bird or tell them to fuck off with their sorry selves).

I personally don't do the call outs unless I get it first, chicks driving by in a car giving a yell, return the whistle while hardly having seen them. That's always fun.

The OP is a caricature at most and doesn't reflect the vast, overwhelming, absurd majority of all male-female verbal contact in western countries.

[JackDragna]

477. Some of the men in this thread have been ludicrous.

I've dated a few women in my life who I'd consider pretty good-looking. Some of the things that happened to them even in my presence blew my mind. We'd go to bar, for example. I'd leave for a bit to get drinks or use the restroom, and guys would walk up to my girlfriend and say things like "stop dating that loser" and "hey, wanna go fuck real quick?" Then they'd all melt into the background when I came back. When she'd point them out and I'd confront them, they'd all look down and walk away, usually. I even had several occasions where I had to be ready to throw down to keep people from feeling up my girlfriends in public places.

The point, to those who can't seem to get it in this thread, is that women are subjected to verbal cat-calling and harassment more than society at large recognizes. I have four sisters and the stories they have chill the blood. I'm not sure what the ultimate cause is: perhaps some men really are just that sex-crazed, or they just enjoy any situation where they can exert power over someone else. Whatever it is, it looks pretty damned foolish to come in here and worry about whether the women in this thread think all men are evil. The thread seems to be a place for women to commiserate over one of the unfortunate hardships they have to deal with on a daily basis, and coming in here, stamping your foot indignantly, only serves to make you look intolerant.

[lukasahero]

481. Some of you guys are a breath of fresh air

This post is awesome. Thank you.

[joshcryer]

489. So you're saying your bar experience is representitive of society at large?

[seabeyond]

490. not only is he saying it but ALL the women are. are you saying all us women dont know what we are

talking about

but

you stop and listen to the ONE male.....?

wouldn't that be about as misogynist as they come hat you ignore all women, yet when the one man says something you stop and ask.

wouldn't that be the solution i suggested that when your friend does something, you speak out. cause when a woman does something, she is ignore, but your friends will listen to you?

[joshcryer]

492. What? Does it sound like I'm agreeing with his gross generalization?

Come now please stop mischaracterizing what I am saying.

[Brickbat]

493. In study after study, the majority of women surveyed say they have experienced street harassment

from men they don't know.

[joshcryer]

494. I did not say anywhere that street harassment was not an issue.

But it's certainly not a bar brawl in every corner of western society.

[Brickbat]

495. You're absolutely right.

It's not a "bar brawl" in every corner of western society. But your question was if a woman's experience -- being hit on and menaced in unwanted ways -- was representative of society at large. Studies show it is. Women talking in this thread show that it is. And that's a problem.

[joshcryer]

496. I'm elevating my position; apparently there are ordinances that make it illegal to leer at women.

Read this: http://www.thevillager.com/villager_118/justlookingaviewof.html

In this case all women should check to see if they have this ordinance and DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. Not only call the police when someone is sexually assaulting them (grabbing ass) but also when they are leered at.

What most women probably do not realize is that at any point when she feels harassed by disruptive behavior conducted by men on the street, she can report it and it will qualify as a “dis con,” or disorderly conduct, charge. “If the woman calls 911, stays in the location where it happened and keeps an eye on the guy, police will come and the man will receive a summons for his offense,” says an officer from the New York City Police Department’s Rape Hotline, who asks that her name not be printed. “The gentleman can be questioned and charged, but unless the female victim is there on the scene, officers can’t do anything,” she confirms. If the accuser feels strongly enough and follows through with the case, it could result in the issue of a ticket with a fee to the man acting out in public.

I didn't know about these. Good.

[Brickbat]

497. Here's the hoping the guy sticks around.

Interesting, isn't it?

[joshcryer]

502. Yeah, well, if they're in a car...

...fall back to indifference.

I just don't see how these assholes are going to learn if the women don't let them win by giving them exactly what they want. The leerers want you to be flustered, they want to impress their male friends. Read the last bit of that essay:

Therefore the prospect for now lies in the hands of the women. As I see it, the problem is about a severe lack of communication. Women should take heed that they can defend themselves, whether it’s by calling the police or intelligently putting the men in their place. As I have discovered, speaking may be a way to make peace with both the institution itself, and its effects on the victim.

That's what I've been arguing all along (though I got shit for it).

[Brickbat]

504. Well, now, that's interesting that you say that.

After I figured out that harassers want me to be flustered, I stopped being flustered. I found that if I laugh as hard and as loud as I can -- really fake knee-slapping shrieking laughter -- and keep walking in a purposeful way the way I always do, and point at the guy harassing me, people around us are going to be more likely to stare at him than me. And then he's being observed while being laughed at. And I get a good laugh out of the whole thing. But it doesn't stop the guy from doing it in the first place. And frankly, I still feel like shit when it's all over, and I get tired of walking around trying to be ready to cackle at somebody if he yells something rude at me.

The other thing is, if men are going to ask women to talk about it and call it out, they have to listen to the women and not wonder why she's crying and breathless and the guy is standing there with his hands in the air going, "Hey, baby, calm down!" Or, you know, jump all over women in a thread on a message board and wonder to their faces if it's really that big of a problem.

[joshcryer]

505. It will stop him for that next girl! He won't know if she'll do the same!

Likewise, calling the police will stop them for that next girl, because if they get more offenses they can likely wind up in jail. Really, one time is all it takes, and they'll be scared shitless to misbehave.

[Brickbat]

506. I'm not a girl; I'm a woman.

And really, if someone feels entitled to do something, one uppity bitch is an anomaly. So I'm never sure if it's useful or not. And I don't think men would like living in a world where they have to worry that all women are going to cackle at them if they complement them on their outfit or something.

[joshcryer]

507. Isn't that what everyone is arguing for here?

Any kind of leering is unacceptable, etc?

[Brickbat]

512. What I would like is for men to harassing women they don't know on the street.

I don't want women being responsible for keeping men in line. Men know that what they're doing is unacceptable.

[JackDragna]

533. I think what people are "arguing" for, if anything..`

..is merely a recognition that being harassed is a problem for women.

[JackDragna]

531. What "gross" generalization am I making?

This happens. At a hell of a lot more places than bars, either. It may be by a small percentage of men, but it happens often enough to give women serious pause about where they go and how they present themselves. If you're not aware of this, you need to talk to more women.

[JackDragna]

534. What I'm saying is that I've seen enough..

..in bars, in public parks, on the street, in all sorts of places, to know that harassment of women is a problem.

[Matariki]

513. THANK YOU.

[HEyHEY]

549. Some men, maybe, most of the women, yes

THe fucking cartoon could have made it's point by showing one or two examples, but it didn't it went on and on to the point where it basically inspired hatred against all men. I'm offended by it, I'm a man and it offends me. I dont' give a shit what anyone has to say about anything other than the fact that I, as an honest man, feel it degrades me. THat one poster even posted shit about how I was upset cause I couldn't take someone telling me I didn't get it because I was man. If that kind of sexits, bigotted BULLSHIT is allowed to fly on DU, I can see why Obama is taking so much shit from fucking imbeciles.

[JackDragna]

558. So your problem is with the stylistic points of the toon?

That's the same type of long-form, multi-panel toon you'll find in a Sunday paper. In addition, there's nothing for you to "get." This is something that happens to women, whether you like it or not. When a cartoonist makes a toon like this, with a political or social point, they don't have to include a disclaimer such as "oh, by the way, this doesn't represent every person of type X" just to make that group happy.

I'm a man, too. I'm not offended in the least. I know this happens to women. I've had to chase off men who did things like this to women I date. Like it or not, there is a societal belief that women just get too upset over "little" things like this and should just accept being ogled as part of their daily lives. If you think this toon inspires hatred of all men, you're reading something into it that isn't there.

[seabeyond]

559. have i told you

thank you yet.

i cant remember and the thread is to long to check

so, thank you

[JackDragna]

560. There's no need.

Being a liberal means you're on the right side for every argument for every person who feels marginalized or degraded by society, no matter who they are.

[seabeyond]

568. people tell me... i am such a good mom. i tell them. i dont get a pat on the back for doing my job

it should be the expected, the norm. not something to warrant praise

i hear ya.

[JackDragna]

569. Thanks for all the good work you do.

There. Spreading the love. :)

[HEyHEY]

561. You can see evidence of the kind of hatred it stirs up on this thread

[JackDragna]

567. I see very little in the thread that qualifies as hatred.

Mostly, I see confusion by people who understand the cartoon's message as to the types of arguments made by those who seem critical of it.

[Blue_In_AK]

509. Ain't it the truth??

Men have no clue. I'm kind of glad I'm old and unsexy now so that I don't have to put up with the bullshit that I did in my youth, not just on the street but in the workplace. If the sexual harassment laws that are in effect now had been in place then, I'd be a rich woman.

[defendandprotect]

517. Wow ... this is certainly a subject that needs a lot more attention at DU -- !!!

[pa28]

541. There is a small but persistent (and loud) subculture that clings to harassment.

IMO it's a frat party bonding mentality that causes this in the first place and it's the only thing that can stop it as well.

Guys who do this usually have something to prove. Guys who have nothing to prove would never think of it. Why would you do it unless you have something to prove?

In any case the reason I post is because the rest of us have to fight through the barbed wire and scars left by these people in personal or business situations and the women are robbed in many cases of sincere friendships and opportunities. I see it so often and it just gets tiring.

[FedUpWithIt All]

545. "the rest of us have to fight through the barbed wire and scars left by these people"

Wow. Thank you for speaking for the women who endure this type of thing. :hi:

[MrScorpio]

550. Stop Street Harassment Video

http://www.youtube.com/user/stopstreetharassment#p/a/f/2/D2Qpi-fW6jA

[seabeyond]

555. thanks scorpio. nt

[MrScorpio]

556. I was looking for another one, but found this one instead

It's still a very effective message.

You're very welcome.

[DirkGently]

552. Good smackdown of a popular line of fallacious thought.

Context, history, and identity matter. No, Dr. Laura, you don't get to toss around the "N" word because "black comedians do it," and no, strange men yelling sexually suggestive things to women on the street is not "complimentary." "N" is what what white people screamed while committing racist atrocities. "Black comedians and rappers" aren't conjuring that scenario when they use the term. And men don't frequently get pulled into vans and alleyways to be beaten and raped by women who leer at them and offer unsolicited "compliments." Silly to even spell it out -- and yet people don't get it, or, more likely, pretend not to to rationalize an ugly point of view. Thus, the cartoon.

Really well done.

[seabeyond]

557. ya.....

i jsut watched the video above you. kinda made me sad. and then read your post.... and

ya

[Liquorice]

562. I have a big beautiful black lab that I like to take on drives with me. She

loves to go for car rides. It's probably her favorite thing in the world. So of course I frequently have her with me when I drive to pick up something quick at the store, etc.

I used to live in a run down area of town, and every day I had to pass by a group of scumbag "men" who gathered at the corner of a four-way stop that I had to stop at on my way. And every day that my dog was with me they would yell something out about her. All I would hear was "...that dog" as I passed by. I always had my windows up because they were scary guys who would say all kinds of nasty things to me, like calling me a bitch, etc. But I kept wondering what they were saying about my dog. One day as I made my very fast stop at the intersection, I finally heard what they were saying. It was, "do you like fucking that dog?"

I felt so enraged and disappointed and so profoundly sad when I realized what they had been yelling at me and my beautiful girl that I just can't adequately express it. When I realized how depraved these men were, and how disgusting their thoughts, I felt this deep and horrible cynicism about human beings.

I have had MUCH worse things happen to me, but there was just something so sickening and jaded about what they were yelling about my dog and me that it changed me. And not in a good way. I guess because the love of a dog is so innocent and pure, and their thoughts about her and me were so disgusting and perverse--it was just too much.

This thread is so large that I doubt many people will see this story, but I just had to share it anyway.

[lukasahero]

566. I read it

I'm sorry that happened to you. I opened the post because I thought your story would be about your dog protecting you or something (as dogs are wont to do). I'm sorry these people turned something so beautiful into something ugly like that.

[Liquorice]

570. Thanks for reading. I wish the story had ended with my dog

ferociously biting them, or at least scaring the hell out of those idiots. :mad:

[lukasahero]

571. Actually, that's half of what I expected. :)

I used to feel so safe walking with my big old Lab - 110 lbs of pure muscle. I had a few guys try stuff with me when he was around - they must've thought as a Lab he'd be a big old push-over. They learned right quick to respect his growl - I'm sure it left them wondering about his bite. :)

(Really pathetic to have to think that way though - hoping your dog will protect you from random guys on the street. :( )

[alphafemale]

564. Don't walk slump sholdered with your head down

Sorry...but if you send up the "victim flag" don't be surprised if you get nipped just because.

[AngryAmish]

565. I just have to thank DU for this wonderful thread

It is everything I expect out of DU. In fact, this is pretty much a distillation of everything DU stands for.