Wow, did you see this? "Amanda Knox is innocent."

[CTyankee]

http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/38969942/ns/today-today_people/

Ex-FBI investigator thinks she was framed...I saw him interviewed on GMA this morning...very impressive...I always beleived that she was innocent...

[sharp_stick]

1. I don't know if she's innocent

but I'm convinced she was railroaded and received a wildly pathetic trial.

[pscot]

4. She was handy

Any American would have served.

[maxsolomon]

2. of course she is. but the prosecutors can't back down now

all the DNA evidence is easily explained as incidental, the witnesses were ludicrous, she & raffaelo have no motive or history of violence. she was coerced into a confession during interrogation, and her 'inappropriate cartwheels' were fucking yoga stretches. she is a typical Seattle girl, where 'being weird', smoking weed, and fucking your boyfriend is normal. in perugia, the upstanding citizens like to pretend that their kids would never behave in such a scandalous fashion because, what, they're catholic and amanda is Seattle-new agey?

the italian jury and judges were influenced by tabloid hysterics.

now, the "she's guilty" squad should be along shortly. :popcorn:

[WinkyDink]

7. "Yoga stretches"? "No history of violence" as a defense (many murderers agree)? "Coerced"?

Yeah, everybody in prison was railroaded, or so they say.

[maxsolomon]

23. well, i'm not a defense attorney

but some people in prison ARE innocent. just not a majority.

i'm trying to point out where cultural differences between Seattle residents and Italians and Brits would cause misinterpretation. it's not a crime to be flighty, except in Perugia, apparently.

[LanternWaste]

52. Self delete

self delete.

too obvious to be perceived.

[LisaL]

9. No history of violence?

Well using that logic Guede didn't do it either, because he doesn't have history of violence either.

[maxsolomon]

21. maybe guede didn't do it

but his is the only DNA evidence that has no business in the flat. the murder is logical and simple without amanda and raffaelo, torturously labyrinthian with them.

[msanthrope]

33. How is the DNA on Kercher's bra incidental? Or the mixed blood found on the 3rd roommates'

floor?


"But perhaps more damning even than the knife was Stefanoni’s testimony that a mix of Knox’s DNA and Kercher’s blood was found on the floor in the bedroom of a third roommate, Filomena Romanelli. While it might not be noteworthy to find mixed genetic traces of residents of the same house, Romanelli’s room is critical in this crime. Her window was broken with a large rock that prosecutors believe was used to stage a break-in. The mixed Knox-Kercher trace was found after investigators used luminol, a substance used in forensic science to bring out blood that had been cleaned up.

In addition, Stefanoni testified that a mixture of Knox’s DNA and Kercher’s blood was found on the drain of the bidet, on the bathroom sink and on a Q-Tip box in the girls' bathroom. Stefanoni also found Kercher’s blood on the upper part of the light switch in that room, which indicates that it was left when the light was turned on, not off. Two weeks ago, the court heard that a nude footprint in Kercher’s blood found on a blue bathmat was likely Sollecito’s, and Stefanoni further testified that Sollecito’s DNA was found on the clasp of the bra that had been cut off Kercher’s body during the assault."

http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2009-05-24/will-dna-damn-amanda-knox-/


Further, how do you explain the family's manipulation of the press?

"The Knox family's public relations campaign

Knox's family engaged the services of David Marriott, of Gogerty Stark Marriott, a Seattle-based public relations firm, to handle the public relations aspects of their campaign.<119>Marriott is a former television news reporter and has been the press secretary for a former Seattle mayor, as well as having run several communications consulting firms.<120>

Marriott ensured that journalists in Perugia in the early stages of the case could only get access to the Knox family if they gave guarantees about positive coverage.<121> As time went on the family opted to speak, primarily to the American television networks.<121> Since then, they have appeared on several TV talk shows, such as the Oprah Winfrey Show on 23 February 2010."


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Meredith_Kercher

[msanthrope]

39. to add--here's video on the knife DNA evidence--and the blog itself is worth a read--

http://www.truejustice.org/ee/index.php?/tjmk/C339/

[BlueMTexpat]

54. I followed the reports of the Kercher murder and the Knox trial closely at the time.

IMO, Knox had a fair trial and one that was in accordance with Italian law. None of us was present at the trial, after all. The US MSM only picked up on this story at a very late stage, primarily to present the Knox family's point of view. The real known victim in all this is the young British student (Knox's roommate, after all, and Knox was indeed implicated) who was murdered and to the Knox family, her fate almost seemed like an afterthought.

The Italians had no reason to "pick on her because she was an American," inappropriate behavior or not - and Knox's "inappropriate" behavior was the least of it, as you point out. In my own experience of 24+ years of living and working abroad in Western Europe and the developing world, US citizens are generally treated much better in justice systems abroad than citizens of those countries are treated here. But it is true that justice systems are different and evidentiary standards of proof can also be different. That is something that US citizens need to keep in mind when they travel.

[maxsolomon]

41. OMG they are trying to defend their daughter against a tabloid jury!

1a. they all LIVED TOGETHER, maybe they even SHARED CLOTHES. they SHARED A BIDET, and all 3 of them have menses. menses = blood.

1b. the Perugian police, and the DNA testing are incompetent. a "mix" of DNA and blood? meaning what, that Amanda's hair, which quite plausably would be in her roommate's room, got blood on it? what "DNA'? see the FBI man's comments.

2. who gives a fuck? how does that mean she's guilty?

[msanthrope]

44. Dude--try reading comprehension.

Explain how her boyfriend's DNA got on the murder victim's bra clasp. You know, the bra Kercher was wearing when she died.

Explain how the blood of knox, and the murder victim were found, mixed--on the floor of the third roommates' bedroom.

Explain how the DNA evidence of the knife is incorrect--how Kercher's and Knox's DNA weren't on it....

Or don't--claim it was all a conspiracy....



http://www.truejustice.org/ee/index.php?/tjmk/C356/

[maxsolomon]

47. i can't explain it all. no one can.

but i don't consider all of that EVIDENCE OF MURDER, either. obviously, a corrupted jury pool in Italy does.

it's not a 'conspiracy'; it's incompetence, scapegoating, and ass-covering.

[CTyankee]

64. This whole thing is what persuaded me that she was innocent...it was just too much innuendo...

it was a stretch for me in any case, and I really thought about my own biases. I am not a big pro-USA promoter. I love Italy and travel there as often as I can. So I was not on its side in this. I was on Amanda's side. I think she's innocent...I know there are good people who disagree...which is fine...

[McCamy Taylor]

46. Blood at a scene where you live is weak circumstantial evidence.

People bleed for lots of reasons---menstrual blood, injuries, nose bleeds.

If a defendent was not supposed to have been at a crime scene but his blood was found---i.e. a stranger to the family---the presence of blood can prove that he was present at some time, which makes him a possible suspect. (It still does not prove he did it).

If your blood is found in a place where you live or visit regularly, that just means you live there or visit regularly.

The real evidence in the case is testimony from the man who admitted to doing it. Defendents will often make deals with prosecutors to save themselves. And for the local prosecutor, being able to charge a woman---an American, no less---probably made this a much more attractive case. Lots of press coverage, lots of notoriety. If the Italian prosecutorial system is anything like ours, this has probably made some DA's career. Recall how Henry Lee Lucas duped (willing) law enforcment in the US, who really truly wanted to be involved in a hot serial killer case, so much so that they ignored problems with his stories.

Also, note how often weak evidence is used to convict foreigners in all countries of the world. I think that there is a certain prejudice against strangers, a desire to blame them for our own social ills. Remember how we convicted a British nanny of murder that could just as easily have been committed by the family or some friend of the family.

[LisaL]

51. Mixed blood and DNA found in several places.

[AngryOldDem]

3. He is impressive.

And since he has no dog in the fight, I think it makes him even more credible.

I've always believed that she is innocent -- and I am amazed at Italian justice. The prosecutor, I understand, has been in trouble himself for judicial misconduct, which should raise questions about any case he has taken part in.

I have no illusions that this guy's involvement will make any difference in her case, but you never know.

[CTyankee]

5. He admitted in the interview that he had no chance to doing anything for her

within the local justice system. I think it is too bad...and I don't really get it...I was in Perugia in 06 and just loved the town. The students at the school for the "stranieri" were a kind of delightful touch...esp. the Brits and their excreble Italian, chatting away in the little cafes. I remember a notable dish that I had there involving truffles, olive oil and pasta and that was it! The waiter came around with a little thingie to shave the truffles paper thin...amazing...

[WinkyDink]

6. IMO, she's a guilty psychopath. And other nations do happen to have fair trials.

Of course, there are people who claim to "prove" Captn. J. McDonald is innocent, too.

[EOTE]

8. Yeah, one of those psychopaths who show no signs of it until a brutal murder.

She was just saving up a really long time for the big one. :sarcasm:

[LisaL]

10. That argument doesn't hold water.

I can name plenty of cases where suspect had no history of violence until committing murder.

[EOTE]

12. A psychopath and a murderer are not the same thing.

Most murderers are psychopaths, I'd imagine. Probably a minority of psychopaths are murderers. But one thing almost all psychopaths have in common are several traits which are readily identifiable. It's insanely unlikely that any psychopath would live 20 years of their life while not demonstrating at least some of those traits to those they know.

[WinkyDink]

13. You are pretending to know the intimate details of this dame's life. YOU DO NOT.

[EOTE]

15. Ummm, no. That would be you, the one who claims she's a psycopath.

You know, while having absolutely no basis for that? Projection can be quite telling at times.

[WinkyDink]

18. Heh. I might well be one, albeit a cowardly one. But that's to my ledger, as in "Takes one....."

(Maybe you didn't see the "IMO"? I think it about Bush, too, FTR.)

[Joe Chi Minh]

22. Does someone who does cart-wheels at the police-station they're taken to for questioning,

about a particularly vile murder of an innocent young woman, strike you as having a bare minimum of empathy?

Does it strike you that the fact that she considered the murder of a neighbour, and the investigation into it, as no matter for suppressing her mood of levity, might be viewed by many as an abnormal degree of callousness. Or was she, do you think, just putting on a brave face; out of consideration. In the US, she'd probably have been tased at all points of the compass, in mid-whirl.

[EOTE]

24. She was doing yoga stretches.

And psychopaths typically have a strong sense of self preservation. What she did may not have been smart, but it was certainly not psychopathic behavior.

[maxsolomon]

26. Yoga was how she was taught to cope with stress

fairly typical for Seattle/West Coast kids.

[Joe Chi Minh]

29. It was reported that they were cart-wheels. This "correction" seemed

to emerge some time later.

"Smartness" doesn't come into it. Don't you understand, either, that this is about an abysmal absence of "empathy" - which, if I remember correctly, was manifested in another way or ways, very soon after the murder victim's body had been discovered.

[EOTE]

32. You're surprised that the Italian media didn't give her the benefit of the doubt?

And behavior after the fact should take a big backseat to the fact that there's no physical evidence linking her to the crime other than which has been severely mishandled. The entire case was a joke.

[LanternWaste]

55. I use breathing techniques when I'm stressed...

I use breathing techniques when I'm stressed. Guess I shouldn't try to reduce stress to avoid being perceived and then accused of a lack of empathy.

[WinkyDink]

11. Oh, sarcasm, ouch! You do know Ann Rule worked next to the respectable Ted Bundy, right?

Never heard of John List, I presume? The Menendez Bros? The cliche' "But he was such a NICE boy!" (that one was actually used for Charles "Tex" Watson)?

[EOTE]

14. I see you're adept at it as well.

Umm, no, I don't KNOW the convicted, and I'm quite sure you don't either. There are many people who have investigated this case and none have found any evidence of psychopathic behavior in her past. If they did, it surely would have been presented at trial. And yes, I'm quite aware that OJ is guilty.

[WinkyDink]

16. I try. I'm also a major true-murder weirdo. Call me cynical.

[EOTE]

17. You're certainly at least partly right. NT

[WinkyDink]

19. I'll give you "last tag." :-)

[LisaL]

20. And don't forget Scott Peterson.

Even the mother of his missing wife defended him for while as a wonderful charming man who could have never done it. Well now he is on death row, but if one ignores his behavior, and the fact that the body was found where it was found, there really very little physical evidence that says he did it. Yet I don't see many people claiming him to be innocent.

[msanthrope]

25. She tried to frame an African man--her ex-boss, for the murder. He

lost his business...could have spent the rest of his life in jail.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/italy/4947793/Amanda-Knox-sued-by-Patrick-Lumumba.html

I wonder if the PR firm her parents hired got Steve Moore on Today.


To the OP, I suggest you read some British and Italian reports on this case--not American ones paid for by the parent's PR firm.

[EFerrari]

27. I don't know anything about this case but in the video, her father's body language

was weird. Closed off. He looks like he's hiding something.

[maxsolomon]

30. undoubtedly. he probably did it too. telepathically.

he's in a never ending nightmare - how would you act if your daughter's fondest college dream turned into 30 years of unjust imprisonment and financial ruin for your family?

[EFerrari]

37. I'm not trying to be horrible, max. Go look at the dad again.

I don't know what it means. It could be that he's just worried about the situation but he does seem closed off and somewhat avoidant. Not really how someone who knows his daughter is innocent would respond to a camera, imo. But I don't know him. Maybe that's just how he is.

But thanks for the gratuitous snark. I don't get enough of that here at DU. :)

[msanthrope]

42. Here's a link to a Seattle blog that has a great deal of info on the myths surrounding this case.

http://www.truejustice.org/ee/index.php?/tjmk/C356/

Worth a read--the parents hired a media firm and the American tabloid press ate it up....

[maxsolomon]

45. sorry, you'll get lots more snark from me on this issue.

what reason does her dad now have to be open with the press, especially the european tabloid press? they publically crucified his daughter, poisoned the jury well, and helped send an innocent girl and boy to jail for 30 years.

[EFerrari]

49. You assume that a smear campaign can determine your behavior.

I think there are plenty of examples of people persecuted in the media wrongfully who don't behave guiltily. Too many, unfortunately.

And as for your misplaced snark, no, I won't.

[WinkyDink]

63. "(G)irl and boy"? Jeez, you forgot "Scouts", the way you are trying to depict them.

[maxsolomon]

28. here we go

he DIDN'T spend the rest of his life in jail - she is doing that, and it is equally unfair. is your contention that she deserves a murder conviction because she falsely accused him of the crime?

the interrogators had a lead on a "black man" - they fed her Lumumba. a false accusation made under duress does not prove guilt.

[LisaL]

31. What "lead on a black man?"

[maxsolomon]

48. how did they catch Guede?

[LisaL]

50. Fingerprints.

[msanthrope]

35. Right--they 'fed' her the guy who fired her, who she had a grudge against.

She deserves her murder conviction based on the evidence---and I suggest yu read some Italian and British Press, not press paid for by the PR firm her parent's hired---

"Knox's family engaged the services of David Marriott, of Gogerty Stark Marriott, a Seattle-based public relations firm, to handle the public relations aspects of their campaign.<119>Marriott is a former television news reporter and has been the press secretary for a former Seattle mayor, as well as having run several communications consulting firms.<120>

Marriott ensured that journalists in Perugia in the early stages of the case could only get access to the Knox family if they gave guarantees about positive coverage.<121> As time went on the family opted to speak, primarily to the American television networks.<121> Since then, they have appeared on several TV talk shows, such as the Oprah Winfrey Show on 23 February 2010."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Meredith_Kercher

[BlueCheese]

34. First lesson from Agatha Christie novels

Innocent people do a lot of strange things when suspected of a crime. For example, if a murder has happened and you might be a suspect, you might tend to destroy things that seem like evidence, even if you didn't do it.

Second, I only know the bare outlines of this case. I don't know if she did it or not, but by American standards there is certainly a boatload of reasonable doubt.

[msanthrope]

36. No, there isn't reasonable doubt-- that's why she was convicted.

Look up some British and Italian press on this case--not American press contacted by the parent's PR firm. You'd be surprised how different the coverage is, and how detailed the evidence against her actually is.

Try this Seattle blog--

http://www.truejustice.org/ee/index.php?/tjmk/C339/

[BlueCheese]

38. Please explain further.

Or tell me where to look. Thanks in advance.

[msanthrope]

40. Here's a Seattle blog, devoted to the case, and very in tune to the Knox family BS.

http://truejustice.org/ee/index.php

Lots of links to the actual evidence, news reports, and the machinations of the PR firm that Knox's family hired.

[BlueMTexpat]

58. IMO, the Knox family's actions are making things worse for their daughter.

If they would quit trying to one-up and slime the Italian authorities and let the whole thing die down somewhat, the authorities would probably be only too happy to let Amanda be transferred to a US authority, where the family might have some chance of having the sentence commuted, at the very least. Unless of course, the evidence against her is indeed much stronger than the family would have us believe.

Either way, they're getting some very bad advice, IMO.

[BlueCheese]

43. Thanks. I'll take a look.

To be fair, here's a British column that I was just reading...

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/law/article6947979.ece

[BlueCheese]

53. The front page of that blog...

... seems to be about someone named Anne Bremmer. I'm not sure how all of that is relevant.

In any case, I guess I'm not convinced yet. It seems that almost everyone thinks that Mr. Guede is responsible, but the evidence against Knox seems weaker. I'd certainly want more proof before sending her to jail for the rest of her life.

[BlueMTexpat]

57. She received a 26-year sentence, not life.

That sentence is currently under appeal.

Appearances like this one are no doubt an attempt to influence the US public to influence the Department of State to put pressure on the Italian authorities. It's not a good tactic, I'm afraid.

[BlueCheese]

59. Same standard of proof, of course.

26 years, life, death--the jury had better be damn sure.

Are you saying that this former FBI investigator was put up to this?

If indeed the authorities don't have any direct evidence, as this guy claims, this case rests on a thin reed, especially since they already have someone else convicted of the crime, too. I mean, isn't is possible that this other guy killed her and Knox didn't participate? If there is, she should have been acquitted.

[BlueMTexpat]

60. I don't know what his motivation is. I don't KNOW anything.

But remember that she was found guilty in an Italian court in accordance with Italian standards. "When in Rome, ..." (or Perugia, in this case) and all that, after all.

If this man is truly doing this work as a private citizen, who is paying all the bills for his meetings with Amanda and his travel costs? He says that it's not the money and that he's not writing a book but he carefully avoids saying whether he's being paid by anyone. He also keeps saying that the knife was too large to make the wounds. When and how was he able to examine it? Is he now also a medical examiner? And an expert in Italian law? Does he even speak Italian, for God's sake? Did he interview anyone other than Amanda? I didn't hear any of that here. Just a lot of nicely edited shots to present his theses in the best light.

I am just saying that I am skeptical. His words follow the script for the PR story line that the Know family has used all along. Which is to present the Italian justice system in the worst light. I am surprised that so many DU-ers seem to fall for it.

What really struck me - and others - from the very beginning of this situation is that Amanda never seemed to show the slightest sadness or emotion that her roommate had been murdered. This lack of empathy is frightening.

[BlueCheese]

62. I can't agree or disagree...

... about whether Knox showed any sadness or emotion. But that's not proof that she killed Kerchner. According to the FBI guy, the prosecution witnesses said the knife that had Knox's DNA (at a different apartment) was too big. I have no independent verification of that.

It could be that Knox is a terrible human being and likes to kick puppies in her spare time. But the only question is whether she's guilty of this particular crime. And the evidence of that doesn't seem compelling.

We all know that in the US, a lot of people are wrongfully convicted, even of murder. The Innocence Project is proof of that. Others are bullied into confessions of crimes they didn't commit. It's not that hard to believe that something like that might happen elsewhere.

[alcibiades_mystery]

61. 26 years in Italy? She'll be out in 9, maybe under

[CTyankee]

68. Oh, I think it is. American public opinion does matter. The State Dept. can do a LOT to

influence public opinion...not so much to get things turned around, but a lot. For one thing, Italy depends a LOT on American tourists. I don't think Italy wants to make Americans that turned off by Italy's judicial process...I hope we have some good folks in the STate dept. working for Amanda to get her freedom so she can go home to her family...I hope so!

[msanthrope]

66. anne Bremmer is a an attorney who is a Knox advocate. Try the links on the right. n/t

[BlueMTexpat]

56. This is like Frist diagnosing medical conditions from a photograph.

Just what "evidence" did this man examine, when did he "examine" it and under what conditions? Is he also a lawyer?

I don't know what happened and don't pretend to. But Knox's trial was fair and in accordance with Italian law.

[WinkyDink]

65. I think there's some misplaced belief that European, or Italian specifically, courts are kangaroo.

[msanthrope]

67. Indeed. It's xenophobic, and deliberately fomented by the Knox family

who hired a PR firm to push that viewpoint.

[CTyankee]

69. But from what I am seeing from this ex FBI agent is that it is NOT misplaced.

I am persuaded by his logic that his idea could be right...