"If Republicans capture congress they will plunge this nation into an endless depression."

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

"Things are tough out there. There are no jobs. No money to pay the bills. People are scared and desperate.

When things are bad people want a change. That's natural.

But top economists agree that if Republicans capture congress this year they will plunge this nation into an endless depression. Unemployment will sky-rocket even higher. The value of your house will collapse further. You children's' prospects of a quality education will dwindle.

And the national debt will rise and rise and rise.

For the sake of our children, our way of life and even our security was must not allow that to happen."

What is the argument against saying this?

It has the benefit of being valid.

Countering it is more damaging to Republicans than leaving it be.

Having a national debate about the quibble of whether or not *all* top economists agree that electing Republicans will thrust us into depression puts front and center the fact that *some* top economists say just that... a fact of which most people are probably unaware. It is a debate we want.

[Lost4words]

1. wouldnt that be redundant? arent we already there?

just asking?

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

2. No, we are in an endless stagnation. There is still plenty of room to drop.

This piece offers a good historicall take on the difference between the options:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/06/opinion/06krugman.html?partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

[elleng]

28. Thanks for this. We ALL need to be educated/informed.

[elleng]

3. No, not Depression, and not Endless.

Will become worse and endless if they are elected, as they continue to play their games.

Can't let that happen.

Just saying, WITH EMPHASIS.

[Lost4words]

7. maybe not for you, my situation has improved ZERO

with no real change in sight, I see little or no difference between the political establishment players, the pukes take our future and the dems are silent witnesses, I once again will vote in Nov for the D's as I always have but I have little hope.

go ahead call me names if you like

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

13. I'm with you, but it really can get worse.

I have no hope but do have some fear.

I have lost some dreams during this economic collapse but I have plenty of room to fall. I am not on the street, for instance. I am not a shadow-economy agricultural day-laborer yet.

But mostly I think about other people. So many people on the razor's edge... it won't take much to put them into free-fall.

And then their kids don't get good educations and class distinctions are further entrenched for generations and...

As fucked up as the response to the economy has been there is room for it to get worse.

[Lost4words]

27. I agree, but am at a loss for a solution, I thought we had one,

how quickly dreams fade to reality, hope fades into despair.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

40. I was never super hopeful, but expected more seriousness on the economy

[elleng]

26. Won't call you names; not my thing.

Good to hear you'll vote D.

I'm a fortunate retiree; my problems occurred (and 'resolved') years ago. 'Establishment' is ALWAYS a problem, but with a solid rethug future, we're more doomed and depressed than necessary. A strong 'loyal opposition' is necessary, imo.

[Lost4words]

30. the Democrats dont seem to want to be an opposition party

they wern't during the bush term and they arent now.

[elleng]

33. Right, they've never gotten the hang of countering/framing rethugs propaganda.

http://www.historyisaweapon.com/defcon1/bernprop.html

[area51]

41. We are already in a Depression.

The demos don't give a shit about the people who elected them. That's why no one in power cares about creating a WPA.

[dennis4868]

4. But but but Obama....

has not fixed EVERY problem during his long time int he WH (18 months) and not EVERY legislation that he has passed helps EVERY single progressive so the DEMS must go....bring back the policies of 2001-2008! At least this is the thinking of many DUers lately....

[Lost4words]

8. we still have most of the '01 - '08 policies in place,

this pond is truly shallow

[dennis4868]

19. that's bull....

in just 18 months Obama has changed alot...maybe not everything and not even half of what he plans to do but it's only been 18 fucking months.

[sendero]

70. He's changed almost nothing..

... tell me what he's changed. My god I'm so sick of the spin.

[dennis4868]

20. that's bull....

in just 18 months Obama has changed alot...maybe not everything and not even half of what he plans to do but it's only been 18 fucking months.

[Lost4words]

21. Its clear you have no idea what you are talking about

have a nice day

[dennis4868]

46. wow....

good comeback...that will shit me up.....if you really believe that any person can fix all the problems we have in this country in just 18 months, knowing that it took 10 years to create the massive problems, you are crazy in the first degree.

[Lost4words]

48. you are even wrong as to when the assault truly began

you are a light-weight to be sure, keep talking, you advertise yourself like a neon sign.

with out democrats like yourself we might not have made it to where we are today.

somebody else can try to educate you I wont waste my time.

[dennis4868]

49. I am lost for words....

so go vote for repubs....back to death and destruction...you win!

[Lost4words]

50. you seem to think you are a democrat how did that happen

I have never voted for pukes little pukes LY or otherwise. Face it you are a lightweight re your political history and it shows you need to read up some but I am encouraged you have cleaned up your foul little mouth.

[sendero]

72. What do you mean back?

Obama has done NOTHING to end the wars. He's merely pulling out of Iraq on Bush's timeline. Thanks a lot. God you are ignorant.

[sendero]

71. Fix one...

... goddamned problem you simple ass moron. ONE.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

54. ...

[LaurenG]

5. That should be repeated endlessly over and over and over. nt

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

52. thank you

[RKP5637]

6. It's a shame Bush didn't have some more time left in office as this crap caved in...

Obama inherited so much of this mess as it slid off Bush onto him. Bush got off way too easy. The timing gave the republicans far too much ammunition to demonize Obama. Americans have such short memories. I don't agree with everything Obama has done, but I sure wish more of it could have stuck to Bush and the republicans.

[Lost4words]

10. that was the next admins job to do, instead they legitimized bush et al

missed opportunity in a very big way.

[RKP5637]

43. I've been so very disappointed. n/t

[Dawson Leery]

58. McCain should have won in 2008.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=433&topic_id=433490&mesg_id=434486

I am sad to say, that some 'scarring' of another great depression would have done many some good.

[RKP5637]

59. Americans seem to be such slow learners, seeming to want more of the same if

they start going republican. It's hard to believe the ignorance could be that great, but it seems it well might be... it's become a very bizarre country.

[Dawson Leery]

60. I cringed when I wrote this.

I am facing reality here. Most people are not as smart as we are. The majority of Americans openly shun intellectuals.

[RKP5637]

64. When I look across the new American landscape I'm startled by what I see

and hear, people willfully embracing ignorance as a badge of honor. Many Americans have seemingly lost the ability for critical thinking allowing absolutely dreadful dysfunctional politicians and thinking to rise.

This country is going to be at a grave disadvantage for the 21st century if this continues, other countries will walk/run right past America and we will not have the luxury of catching up, especially if the direction of many republicans is embraced.

[crikkett]

9. I know I'll be depressed. Wait, is this an argument for re-electing dems who failed us?

:eyes:

[Lost4words]

11. funny Bingo!

very strange daze indeed

[EstimatedProphet]

14. No, this is an argument for voting AGAINST the people that caused the situation in the first place

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

16. I agree with that

[EstimatedProphet]

12. Nothing wrong with saying it at all - it's true

The corporate world has been setting up this situation for a long time. They can have all their execs her in the US where high-profile life is so glamorous and sweet, and employ people in the third world to make their goods, where they will sell their products. If Americans are out of work it's no longer a big deal, and the execs will still get paid. An unending depression is exactly what they do want, because it makes labor that much more desperate. Soon there will be people gladly taking day-labor jobs that pay far less than minimum wage and no benefits at all just to get by.

[ixion]

15. We're going through a depression, no matter who is at the helm

and why? Because of the people at the helm, on BOTH sides.

[RKP5637]

18. Yeah, and we really don't have an effective third choice. n/t

[Lost4words]

23. any belief it is otherwise is not founded in fact

the ruling elite is comprised of repukes AND dems.

[phasma ex machina]

61. +1 The addiction of the powers-that-be to their virtual empire guarantees a hard reality check.

At some point during its collapse the Roman Empire gave some upscale convicts the choice between getting executed or becoming boss.

[Javaman]

17. I suspect that when the repukes are back in power, they will do their best

to kick out all the stops.

If you thing there is a gap between the have even mores and the have even less out there, you ain't seen nothing yet.

[RKP5637]

29. That's what I suspect too. They truly want a third world country. I suppose so they

can drive by and step on the peasants. This ever reaching out of control capitalistic economy has created a hell of a lot of sociopathic behavior. I'm convinced they would turn this into a military state to keep the mass of peasants in line.

I don't have any rosy outlook for the US. I got over that a long time ago. Drive through just about any major city in the right area and one can easily see what the future holds. Hell, it doesn't even have to be a large city, there are many examples of cities and towns in desperation, but they are mostly out of sight and out of mind by the MSM.

We are a nation of so much disinformation and propaganda...

[Javaman]

34. Frankly, what I honestly believe their long term plan is...

to degrade the basics of life to substance living so their corporate sponsors can make all their crap here at 3rd world wages.

People scream about fascism, think those people are optimists. I think it will be worse than that, if the repukes are given the free hand: our way of life will be reduced to corporate feudalism.

[RKP5637]

37. Many Americans are so blissfully ignorant as they enable their corporate

masters blindly thinking they are somehow part of the master plan and beneficiaries. I do think in my remaining lifetime here if under republican control this will be one F'ing miserable place to live. Many Americans might well become refugees in other countries if they can get by the border police containing the masses in this country as basically slave labor. It's happened in other countries, I don't see how any could be so ignorant as to think we are immune...

[Javaman]

39. We are no longer a well informed citizenry.

As long as well are constantly kept off balance via whatever flavor of the week type broadcasting that masquerades as journalism these days, we will never be able to coalesce into an informed public ever again.

Newspapers and anything in print are in dire straights these days and have been replaced by ready made, easy to digest sound bytes for the general public to consume. The pubic gets 15 seconds of this and 15 seconds on the "news" and considers themselves to be well informed. When instead, much to their overwhelming ignorance, they have been deeply brain washed with corporate propaganda.

One day, the power will go out. The constant flood of disinformation will finally have been shut off. Only then will the public have to figure things out for themselves.

Sadly, the public will also realize, simultaneously, that they have been had.

[RKP5637]

42. And those of us that often try to inform them are hyped as LW nut cases that are

unpatriotic, un-American and not REAl Americans. It's so very sick.

I'll be surprised if something akin to the Joseph McCarthy trials does not begin if the R's are back in power. Also, internet surveillance will be maximized. Hell, even posting on DU will be considered a threat to national security. Americans are just so lame today, not even realizing history often repeats.

I even had someone tell me the other day that the problems with America could be easily cured if we had more religion in government. Yeah, just what we need. I told them to look at Iran, do we really want a theocracy. Never heard back from them.

[Javaman]

51. What gets me is...

The right wing acts as if there was no history prior to 9/11.

What really depresses me, not only our rights being watered down, but these nuts on the right that want to remove various amendments to the constitution because it doesn't fit their agenda.

Sadly, if we actually championed and applied our constitutional rights and the laws contained within, the way they should, our country would be in much better shape. But alas, here we are.

The right wings motto is the antithesis of what FDR said about only fearing fear itself.

To paraphrase Ben Franklin, "when you give up a little liberty for a little safety, you get neither".

[RKP5637]

53. As Michael Moore once said, "There is nothing wrong with our government, it's

the people in it..." Something like that he said, and it made a lot of sense to me.

[KillCapitalism]

68. That's what scares me most about corporatism.

I bet every CEO has a wet dream about taking a white-out marker to the 13th amendment to the constitution.

We won't have a depression if republicans regain control, we'll have outright slavery.

[Javaman]

77. Well, actually...

we already do have slavery in this nation. It never left. I'm not talking about the corporate worker bee type, I'm talking about the real thing. Just google "modern slavery in America", you will get hit after hit.

My biggest fear is the further justification for watering down and ignoring our basic rights.

About 3/4's of our original 10 amendments are now not fully applied, watered down, redefined or just plain ignored.

We are one halfwit tea party candidate away from the total dismantling of our nation.

To paraphrase what you said, "We won't have a depression if republicans regain control," we will return to type of serfdom.

A type of debtors prison will return, indentured servitude will be the norm (pretty much is now, especially since the watering down of the bankruptcy laws. Thanks Joe Biden!), unions will be further weakened, it goes on and on.

there is so much more to this.

What makes things different today is, the extremism displayed by the right wing. This isn't even mccarthyism anymore, it's beyond that. Even back then many of his fellow republicans though him to be a crazy opportunist.

Today, there doesn't seem to be a whiff of sanity by any of the right wing. Those who do object, become marginalized and lose political clout.

There is a train wreck in our future, unless we regain a level of national sanity.

[haele]

74. The problem is that once infrastructure disappears, all the gated communities -

all the fancy "city yachts", will be stuck as floating targets with no way to sustain such living.
How many private airstrips, private docks, private farms and ranches, private shipping, etc, can be sustained if the majority of the people that support these projects are unable to survive themselves?
Are the upper 1% and their sycophantic 2-5%s so stupid as to believe that they can buy enough respect not to end up against the wall when several desperate communities of former middle-class and working class people - people with nothing to lose and everything to gain - get together to take on their private armies?
Once the infrastructure collapses, there will be no media empire to herd masses that can no longer afford to be hypnotized.
If most people can't afford cable, barely afford their phones and twitter accounts, can't afford the electricity to watch TV, living on the streets - how can Faux keep people plugged into the two minute hate?
If everywhere turns into Rwanda or Somalia, where can the wealthy "free trade corporatist" hide? Have they even thought that far ahead?

Haele

[Javaman]

76. The rise of the private army...

just as corporations now hire mercs, the very wealthy will begin to do the same.

Those who live in the gated communities aren't wealthy, they are merely the upper portion of the middle class.

when corporate feudalism takes hold those upper middle class will become the merchant class. All those below will become the working poor aka serfs.

the very wealthy will become the land holder who rule over the merchant class and use the poor to supplement their armies.

It sounds a lot like science fiction or social fiction, however way you like it, but we are much closer to this than we think.

We are one massive natural disaster, one massive political upheaval, one massive attack (false flag) away from this happening.

if 9/11 taught the power brokers one thing, it was this: the American public are nothing more than mindless easily manipulated fools who will run to the first figure of authority to keep their fear at bay, but alas, that same figure of authority will use the peoples fear as he or she's best weapon to control the masses.

[unblock]

22. but we need impeachment hearings about obama's birfertificate!

[lumberjack_jeff]

24. Exactly.

It is LBJ's "my opponent is a pig fucker argument". Make them deny it. The analogy would be better if LBJ was talking about someone who really does have sex with pigs.

I really want them to show me how their policies will avoid a catastrophic depression.

[Rex]

25. Well not that anyone will admit to it, but we are already in an endless depression.

Psychologically and financially.

[Lost4words]

31. agreed

[OwnedByFerrets]

32. What you describe is exactly what the "powers that be" have been

working to accomplish. They have almost achieved their goals.

[Lost4words]

35. +1

[metapunditedgy]

36. We're too busy/divided over cutting SS and extending "tax cuts" for the rich.

No time to focus on negativity... have to show we're active before November...

[McCamy Taylor]

38. That's their plan.

[Quantess]

44. So what if top economists are saying that.

FOX news and Glenn Beck disagree. Those economists and their high falutin' education are just a bunch of elitists. Let's listen to what Sarah Palin says about it! She's a real American.

[KamaAina]

45. Look on the bright side. It won't be endless.

Given enough time in power, they'll plunge us into World War III. :nuke:

:sarcasm:

[grahamhgreen]

47. Continuing outsourcing and the greed trade agreements are doing the same thing. nt

[Lagomorph]

55. Got a source for those comments in quotes?

I'd like to read more.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

57. Nah, just something I wrote

[ShamelessHussy]

56. too late, already been there, done that

[DCBob]

62. Not so sure.. what if big business starts spending the billions they are hoarding..

and starts hiring again right after the elections? They could turn the economy around almost instantly. Of course the Republicans will take the credit saying big business regained confidence with Repubs taking control and RW media will back them up. Its a sickening scenario but could easily happen.

[Snarkoleptic]

63. Good point...

It'll look a lot like when the US hostages in Iran were suddenly released when Ronnie Raygun was elected.

I can hear it now "We were just waiting for the Republican catalyst to act as a game-changer..."

Same tactic, different game.

[lonestarnot]

65. Eeeek fucking eeeeeek. Can't stomach the thought of it. Seeking passport prior to this election.

[Quantess]

69. I know how you feel.

I've got dual citizenship in a european country, and I'm ready to redeem it. Seriously, I'm moving as soon as I can.

[lonestarnot]

73. I really don't think pugs have as much chance of a take down as they would like to believe.

We are running public service anouncements in Elkhardt Indiana where people can go to get food and the food banks are out of food. Who do you blame? I blame bushitler for the total collapse that isn't over yet. PugliCONS will not get off so easily. Wait and see.

[gophates]

66. They already did.

It'll take decades to undo what Dim Son did in just eight years.

[BzaDem]

67. Republicans will just roll out their hundred economists that say Obama will put us into a depression

if he is allowed to continue to destroy the hopes of our children and grandchildren (and other such nonsense).

The media will draw an equivalence as they always do and conduct "he said she said" reporting. People will still look at the current situation and reject the party in power, regardless of whether or not it is in their self interest to do so.

5 out of the past 6 polls have each independently implied that there will be at least an 80 seat shift in the House this fall. This is a disaster. The Republicans will almost certainly take the House and shut down the government.

My best hope at this point is that Obama will win the PR war during the shutdown and force Republicans to capitulate, as in 1995. (Assuming there are enough Republicans that aren't tea party nuts that will do so.) At least at that point, Republicans will be so afraid of another shutdown that Obama can probably hold off huge spending CUTS relative to where we are now.

[sendero]

75. If they do..

... we will finally get some left leaning leaders to remove the corporate influence from our government. We are going to have to hit rock bottom before the average American gets a fucking clue.

I don't give a shit if Reps get control of Washington, because our Dem leaders arent' doing anything but taking the credit for the problems, since they are completely incapable of confronting them.