“Denying my experience.”

[lumberjack_jeff]

Recently, I caught hell for relating my understanding that most “catcalling” (the harassing of women by unknown men) was generally a gang-like group activity and not the individual acts of harassment shown in a cartoon that had been previously posted.

Being male and raised in a rural area I was actually pretty ignorant about the topic. So posters rightly corrected me, and noted that my assertion “denied their experience”. The fact that those “corrections” continued for a couple of days after I agreed that I was wrong is actually somewhat relevant.

I fundamentally agree that to deny that something is bothering a person, or that their complaints have validity to them is a clear manifestation of poor relationship skills.

... but it got me thinking.

What happens when a man says, “It's not right that I’m 50% less likely to go to college than my sister.”? Instead of heeding the above relationship advice, the general DU response is exactly the opposite. “Women have been oppressed for thousands of years, so this is appropriate, and you should stop your whining. Besides, if men weren't such worthless video-game playing slackers...”

Fundamentally, issues that suggest disadvantage to men, despite being demonstrably accurate, are denied because they conflict with someone else’s experience.

Feelings, in other words, trump facts.

• Men die younger, living about half as long in retirement as women
  
• Women are 50% more likely to get a college education than men
  
• Men held 82% of the jobs lost in this recession
  
• About 80% of the homeless are men
  
• Men represent 92% of the workplace fatalities
  
• Men more likely to be the victims of violent crime
  
• Men are systematically discriminated against in family court
  
• If arrested, are more likely to be convicted of a crime than a woman
  
• Men die of suicide about 4x as often as women

What does government do about it?
healthcare reform which passes the costs of women's longer lives onto men
Women's educational equity program
The Kennedy report on the impact of the recession on women
The violence against women act
Homeless Women Veterans and Homeless Veterans With Children Act
Debates further raising the retirement age

Despite the demonstrable reality, the accepted “experience” at DU is that men, particularly white men, enjoy privileges too numerous to count (and oddly, too ubiquitous too be able to identify with any kind of specificity). Men generally don't perceive this privilege that is so blindingly apparent to others because, in our day-to-day lives, it doesn't exist in any meaningful way.

The thread which was the catalyst for this post was one which purported to give communications advice to DU’s men. Among the advice;

3. Harassing women on the street for sex is not a good way of going about changing their minds when they have decided that they don't wan't to have sex with you.
4. Rape is not sex, it's violence and women generally don't enjoy being violated.

This is only worthwhile as advice if one assumes that the average DU’er didn’t know that, or must be continually reminded lest we resume our savage ways.

I was offended by this. The offense I took at the underlying assumption was greeted with three reactions;
a) If you’re not a harassing rapist, then he wasn’t talking to you.
b) If you don’t think women get raped, then you’re denying my experience. (great strawman there)
c) Why so defensive? I wonder why, hmm...?

No honest person DU’er can look at the trends in society and the dynamics that create them, combined with the execrable state of gender discussions here and argue that a men’s forum is wrong.

I argue that it’s absolutely necessary and pragmatic, but it is also the right thing to do.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

1. Hmm.

"Men die younger, living about half as long in retirement as women"

Don't they tend to go to the doctor far less than women?

"Men held 82% of the jobs lost in this recession"

Isn't that because men are more likely to voluntarily forego college for various manual labor jobs?

"Men held 82% of the jobs lost in this recession"

Construction jobs, for example?

"Men more likely to be the victims of violent crime"

Right, it's time we take back the streets and make the night safe for men.

But seriously, your whole point might make a little more sense if there were some sort of institutionalized sexism behind all this.

[lumberjack_jeff]

4. If 90% of all primary school teachers were men and their female students didn't go to college...

I suspect people would have no trouble connecting the dots.

Density, thy name is a multisyllabic neologistic quasi-pun.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

8. You know, I could ask you for evidence of this vast anti-man conspiracy.

Like, for example, documented studies that show comparatively qualified men have more trouble getting hired to teach at a primary school level than their female counterparts.

But as I know you're into the anti-vaccer movement, I don't think you take things like facts very seriously.

[lumberjack_jeff]

10. The one-trick pony has an advantage over you.

It can do that one trick. You're just dishonest.

Is the women's educational equity program a conspiracy? That implies some kind of secrecy.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

13. "You're just dishonest."

Says the anti-vaccer.

[lumberjack_jeff]

14. I forgot "consistent". n/t

[dionysus]

211. you're killing me.

:rofl:

[elehhhhna]

15. with all due respect, please

bag it until they pass the Equal Rights Amendment. M'kaaaaaaay?

[lumberjack_jeff]

16. What tangible changes to law do you expect as a result of it?

For starters, it would seem to me that the Homeless Women Veterans Act would arguably be unconstitutional.

Section 1. Equality of rights under the law shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any state on account of sex.

How about the violence against women act?
How about the Women, infants and children program?
How about state and federally backed grants and loans to women-owned businesses?

Do we really want to go there?

[HEyHEY]

24. Well, I think alot of those acts are needed

Men are the majority of lawmakers and can sometimes forget women have different needs. For instance, the business loans considering how many men own businesses by comparison, I can see encouraging women to do so through initiatives.

Violence against women act, I think that's important because it really is (In my experience) harder for women to seek out help and they are much more often the victims of such assaults. So, such an act should be passed.

[lumberjack_jeff]

25. When you begin to consider the implications of legal gender neutrality...

:shrug:

I dunno. Maybe it's time.

Maybe legal chivalry is an anachronism.

[HEyHEY]

26. I don't think it's chivalry

I think it's a case of needs. Chivalry implies it's just for the sake of manners. Women NEED a lot of these programs just as much as men NEED programs. The issue is the men's programs don't exist.

I am all for keeping the womens' programs, but can we please get some for men.

[lumberjack_jeff]

27. Why is combating "violence against women" a higher calling than "violence"?

Men and women need jobs. Men and women need adequate nutrition. Men and women need education. Men and women need access to capital. Men and women need to be free from violence. Men and women need safe workplaces of their choosing.

It's not obvious that both halves are being considered.

[HEyHEY]

28. Because, men and women suffer different types of violence.

For the most part. Men may get mugged or beat up in gang violence or things of that nature. Women are often assaulted by a spouse or boyfriend or something like that. The nature of domestic assaults makes it harder for women to go to the police as well. There's emotions and such involved as well as long term ingrained fear.

[lumberjack_jeff]

30. Different? So?

Domestic violence is perpetrated about equally. The difference is the typical degree of injury. There's a strong social reason to deal with the underlying cycle so that the violence doesn't escalate to that degree. But we don't do that. We do nothing until and unless the man injures the woman.

I'd be interested to hear a non-patriarchal, non-chivalrous answer to this question; Why is violence against women so qualitatively different than violence against men that it has greater importance despite the fact that violence against men is far more common?

The answer I usually get here is that it's because the violence is committed by men - as if that explains anything. The only takeaway I get from that response is that if guys kill each other, that's their business.

[HEyHEY]

31. You don't think that how the violence comes about makes a differnece?

If two guys get into a dispute and one beats the shit out of the other, how is that the same as continued, daily violence from some drunken asshole beating a woman?

The root of the violence is different, so they need to be approached differently, I think. As for why violence against women gets more play? You have only men to blame for that. We tend to not become involved enough on issues that effects us. Women do.

[SwampG8r]

96. he isnt saying the programs are not needed

he is pointing out that the equal righta amendment would demand the ending of any program that served a single gender
any laws written with the recipients limited to one gender ie:women would become unconstitutional

[Crystal Clarity]

18. You might want to reread your own link on this subject

Department of Education statistics show that men, whatever their race or socioeconomic group, are less likely than women to get bachelor's degrees — and among those who do, fewer complete their degrees in four or five years. Men also get worse grades than women.

And in two national studies, college men reported that they studied less and socialized more than their female classmates.

Small wonder, then, that at elite institutions like Harvard, small liberal arts colleges like Dickinson, huge public universities like the University of Wisconsin and U.C.L.A. and smaller ones like Florida Atlantic University, women are walking off with a disproportionate share of the honors degrees.

It is not that men are in a downward spiral: they are going to college in greater numbers and are more likely to graduate than two decades ago.

Still, men now make up only 42 percent of the nation's college students. And with sex discrimination fading and their job opportunities widening, women are coming on much stronger, often leapfrogging the men to the academic finish.

"The boys are about where they were 30 years ago, but the girls are just on a tear, doing much, much better," said Tom Mortenson, a senior scholar at the Pell Institute for the Study of Opportunity in Higher Education in Washington.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/09/education/09college.html

[lumberjack_jeff]

19. You haven't made an recognizable point.

I'm quite familiar with the story. What are you getting at?

All of our effort in the last 30 years has been directed into a massively-successful attempt to get women into college.

It doesn't start out that way. Boys math test scores in k-12 are consistently better than girls, yet they get worse grades? Why?

People don't seem to recognize the obvious. Teachers are giving out grades on a basis other than comprehension of the subject matter, in a way that is biased toward girls.

I don't think it should be at all surprising that boys grow up knowing that school isn't meant for them.

[seabeyond]

56. studies show males get more attention from teacher and presented in leadership role in schools

that they are called on significantly more than girls in class.

how much of this is an orchestrated effort from school or teacher, and how much of this is parental environment? my child is a football star so he doesn't need no stinkin academics as opposed to my daughter doesn't have a lot of options, she had better damn well work her ass off in schools and use academics.

how many parents say reading is a girls activity and boys should be out playing.

i know what i did with my boys and their academics was counter to most all parents. education is THE issue in this house. and reading is a DAILY activity in this house. fuck the societal roles we have our kids playing. it does not behoove my boys and i reject them.

[uncommon]

75. Maybe they should study lol.

Sounds like self-inflicted failure.

[eridani]

45. Colleges are practicing affermative action for men right now

Which is fine by me. What do you think is new about the domination of primary education by women? The only new thing is that it no longer works for men to blow off "book learning" because they know that society will prevent women from getting jobs that pay well regardless of their efforts or academic records.

And I agree that men need to do something about the very destructive male-on-male violence. Sorry, but women generally don't have the muscle mass to break up your fights.

[lumberjack_jeff]

77. By that time it's too late.

Primary education needs more male teachers.

[seabeyond]

80. i agree. now if we can convince men to take the job and it is merely the girlie job.

i have seen no evidence that males are kept out of the elementary positions. having had two boys go thru, i saw a lack them not having a male teachers. i always enjoyed discussing with them the different feel of the classroom when they had a male substitute. the started getting male teachers in middle school and more in highschool. i like that.

but i dont see any reason, but men dont want the job in elementary school.

[lumberjack_jeff]

84. Outreach

http://www.nea.org/home/15200.htm

I find it odd that the single most underrepresented group among teachers is conspicuously absent from the NEA's official policy on outreach.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4731430

[seabeyond]

94. men wont work fro lower wage. to get the men in the elementary schools, increase wage

doesnt that really tell you something?

we are omfortable giving that low wage to women. now there is a push to get males and minority males, there is a push to increase wage to tempt men into the positions.

as i say, it looks like education themselves recognize the imbalance and they want to correct it. it is men themselves that are not applying for the positions.

[eridani]

190. This does not address the question. Only in recent times have there been more female --

--college students, but domination of elementary school teaching by women has been a part of American education since the revolutionary era. And throughout that time, it has been a job ony for girly men.

I think that what is happening now is that traditional American anti-intellectualism is differentially harming men. Boys could always blow off "book learning" in the expectation that any job that paid well was reserved for them regardless of their academic accomplishments. See also "gentleman's C" for the equivalent expectation of a class-based leg up. None of that applies anymore.

And the current assault on public education in general is hardly going to make the field more attractive to men.

[seabeyond]

193. traditional American anti-intellectualism is differentially harming men

that is how i see it.

that is how my boys interpret it going thru the system now. they are pissed, and embarrassed, by their peers embracing stupid.

[eridani]

196. It's always been that way. Only now, there is a real cost attached n/t

[seabeyond]

197. maybe. i see a real escalation with bushco/fox

and the media/internet hype that all teenage and boys worth is, well, his penis.

[seabeyond]

91. searched men applying for elementary positions.

http://hamptonroads.com/2009/05/local-classrooms-ranks-male-teachers-thinning

Nationwide, the percentage of male teachers is at its lowest point since 1970, according to the National Education Association. Federal statistics show that one-fourth of teachers are men.

*

Male instructors are more common in the middle and high school grades, where teachers are subject specialists.

"I end up getting a lot of students who need structure and discipline," said Tim Kubinak, a sixth-grade math teacher at John Yeates Middle School in Suffolk. About 30 percent of Virginia's secondary teachers are male, according to the education association.

Several male teachers said low salaries are a turnoff, and Kubinak thinks too many men are drawn from teaching to administrative positions


http://www.seattlepi.com/local/252612_maleteachers19.html

About 70 percent of the state's teaching corps are women, though experts say more men are beginning to join the field, thanks in part to recruiting and increasing numbers of men who choose to switch to the profession midcareer for a more fulfilling job.

Though there are more men teaching in the state than there were 20 years ago, finding men to teach in elementary schools is still a challenge. In Seattle, about 20 percent of elementary teachers are men, a bit higher than the statewide average of 17 percent.

Men who work for public school districts tend to take jobs as administrators -- 81 percent of superintendents are male -- or as classified workers such as laborers, mechanics or tradesmen, according to statistics from the Office of the Superintendent of Public Instruction.

The small number of male teachers, especially at the elementary school level, "is a problem in the same way we don't have enough minority teachers for kids to connect with," said Jeanne Harmon, executive director of the non-profit Center for Strengthening the Teaching Profession.


http://www.nashuatelegraph.com/news/840094-196/male-elementary-school-teachers--are-a.html

The number of males in the classroom in general has been slipping over the years. A 2008 study by the National Education Association found the number of male teachers had reached a 40-year low, with men accounting for only 25 percent of all public school teachers nationwide.

However, the question is why so few of those men who do go into education look to the elementary level as an option. In New Hampshire schools, the male-female gap closes significantly at the higher levels. Females account for 75 percent of teachers in middle schools and 60 percent in high schools.

O’Dell suspects it has to do with men identifying less with the characteristics expected of teachers at the earlier grades. Younger kids may tend to need a little more hand-holding and nurturing, but O’Dell believes it’s at the elementary level where he can make the biggest difference as an educator

________________________

people seem to recognize the issue. they seem to want to correct the imbalance. and seems like men are not looking to be elementary teachers.

[NashVegas]

233. Too Bad

The men are all heading to the IT department where they can get a starting salary 2x what a teacher makes until they've got 10 years experience, and will almost never get a phone call from a pissed-off parent.

[lumberjack_jeff]

250. You must be an IT manager.

Thanks for the inside information. Surely no one would be so presumptuous as to tell us how spiffy someone else's career is.

[NashVegas]

253. Hate To Bust Your Bubble

Maybe you can find another way to discredit the info.

[lumberjack_jeff]

254. I'd say that ignorance of the subject matter does the heavy lifting.

A person who is not in the industry doesn't have knowledge, they have a stereotype.

[hfojvt]

157. I don't think that is accurate, at least not in my experience

You think women are getting better jobs now because they are more qualified and better educated. I don't buy it. I applied for a part time library job. I have an MA and owned a bookstore for seven years. The job was given to a woman. I applied for a math tutor job. MY BA is in math. I did not even get an interview. Later I took a free course in payroll accounting - a course taught by a young woman who only had a BA, and one of the students - a woman, said she might work as a math tutor because they offered her that job.

Neither of those jobs was very good, but they would have been "foot in the door" where I could have gained experience for better library jobs (BTW go into a library and tell me their workforce is not 90% women) and connections.

Then look at some better jobs. A finance job with the city, my degrees are in math and economics. Job went to a woman, a woman who has no college education. Shift supervisor at a food plant. Job description says a college degree is required. Yet a woman with no degree is hired with the stipulation that she start working on a degree. So there is the trick. FIRST, get a good job, and THEN goto college. Silly me, I did it backwards (although I never applied for that job. My problem was a few steps down, I tried 4 times to get hired there but was stuck working as a temp. Even though my college education was useful even for factory work http://journals.democraticunderground.com/hfojvt/12 )

I have been passed over by my employer SIX times for promotion, even for focking janitorial work (from part time to full time janitor, which would be a huge step up in pay and benefits) and each time a woman was involved in the interview process (hmmmmm). Guess who got promoted from desk clerk into building manager without even needing to put in an application? A woman. And not only a woman without a college degree, which the job is supposed to require, but a woman who dropped out of high school and got a GED.

It seems to me that society is preventing men from getting jobs that pay well regardless of their efforts or academic records, and that even leaves out the primary election I lost - to a woman.

[eridani]

188. I was talking about colleges. They are practicing affirmative action

--in order to increase the number of maie students.

[lumberjack_jeff]

192. What do you mean by "affirmative action"?

Affirmative action, means that (other factors being equal) a male student will be given preferential treatment in order to create a gender-representative student body within the college.

I think you mean outreach and/or marketing, because the above policy is 180° out of phase with public policy as articulated by the department of education.

[eridani]

194. That's what I mean. Many colleges are doing it. n/t

[lumberjack_jeff]

198. Link please. Thanks. n/t

[eridani]

212. There are quite a few

http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2006/03/27/admit

This is just one of many that turn up with googling affirmative + action + "male college students." And I don't have a problem with it. I think that gender balance is woth striving for, no matter which direction you have to move in to get it.

[lumberjack_jeff]

215. Thank you. Interesting article.

But, as the article notes, public institutions are prohibited by title IX from discriminating by gender.

So although federal government grants to get women into college are okay, doing anything to address the resulting gender imbalance is not.

Title IX of the Education Amendments of 1972 bars gender discrimination in all education programs at institutions receiving federal funds (all but a handful of colleges). But Title IX has an important exemption: On admissions decisions, the statute covers all vocational, graduate and professional programs, but for undergraduate admissions, it applies only to public institutions. Kenyon, as a private institution, isn't covered.

[TroglodyteScholar]

12. LOL

Nothing you said invalidates anything being claimed here.

Sexism can only be a factor in any gender-based issue. Are you really willing to say 100% of women's issues are to blame solely on institutionalized sexism?

If we're going to claim that men's issues aren't to be taken seriously because our woes can't always be chalked up to institutionalized sexism, then it logically follows that we should dismiss any other issues collectively facing other groups, whether it's women, minorities, whatever. And I think that's a bad thing.

[HEyHEY]

22. I like how you left out the advantages women have to go to university

While mentioning that men "choose" to go into construction.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

29. I don't think they exist.

[HEyHEY]

133. Well, they do

I'll share with you my experience.

Up until grade one I was excelling in school. I know that sounds like a joke, but I was beginning to read, was VERY creative and artistic and, as my teacher wrote, "the leader of the class."

Grade one came.... that meant an actual structured educational environment. I began to falter, I couldn't seem to do anything right, couldn't learn, and ended up being put into special classes. Guess what? Those classes were full of boys. I eventually got put with the regular classes again, then into enrichment for one day, in which I misheard the teacher's instructions and completed an assignment incorrectly. I was thrust out of enrichment in disgrace. :(

So, over the years I struggled to pass every class, did summer school two years in a row before being kicked out of it due to a teacher conspiracy, and I'm not kidding they even lied to my parents about me kicking a wall in some kind of fit, which never happened. All through my years in school, all the special classes, summer school...etc... it was all boys as my classmates...

Eventually I was sent to a school with a style of teaching that was supposedly suitable to boys... for that summer I aced tests, understood material and gained confidence once again. (That school has since closed and is being sued in a class action suit for abuse.)

The next year I went back to public school and it was back to the same old.... around 18 I came across a newspaper article about how the Canadian system was failing it's young boys and no one seemed to care, I eventually heard more and more about it, then it just faded from view. So, don't tell ME that these issues don't exist, cause they do.

[seabeyond]

150. how did they teach you differently in that one school, than the other schools. nt

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

170. LOL

[lumberjack_jeff]

179. Damn pony. Supposed to jump through the hoop!

One trick! How tough could it be?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

180. I'm reminded of every racist opponent of affirmative action I've ever heard

who's evidence of "reverse racism" is the fact that he couldn't get into college.

[lumberjack_jeff]

183. "Reminded"? What? Like a Rorschach test?

or is that Tourettes? Hard to tell sometimes.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

185. You know, recognizing similiarities between to similar things.

I wouldn't expect anti-science types to understand.

[uncommon]

72. The violence one is my favorite MRA statistic -- men are victims more -- men are almost universally

the perpetrators of violent crime.

Want to stop violence against men? Get your fellow MEN to stop being violent.

[lumberjack_jeff]

110. .

http://www.csulb.edu/~mfiebert/assault.htm

Domestic violence is a cycle which isn't going to be solved without dealing with the whole equation.

[uncommon]

113. Violence is inclusive of domestic violence -- domestic violence is not, however,

inclusive of all other violence.

And I've never met a man who was beaten by his wife or girlfriend - but I have known numerous women who were beaten by a boyfriend or husband.

Doesn't mean it doesn't happen, but it is not as prevalent by a long shot.

[lumberjack_jeff]

114. I've known several couples in which the violence escalated into injury to the woman.

Pretending that escalating reciprocal violence is a myth, until the woman gets injured, doesn't do her any favors.

[JonLP24]

217. Would you know?

Men often don't report domestic violence crimes and also don't tell their friends.

[seabeyond]

219. a cop once said, both genders may abuse, but vast majority of male abuse is what ends in hospital

visit.

the few times i would see cops, on occassion, i would see the female start it, and even hit, and it would be the male that would be arrested. would piss me off each. and. every. time.

i hated it. in my book, that woman needed to be the one hauled off.

i am hearing it is more balanced today

but i have never condoned women using their gender to abuse.

but the point still needs to be made. generally in female abusing male, the consequences are minor comparatively.

[JonLP24]

220. I don't doubt that

I'll tell you where I'm coming from. I've read thousands of threads like this and never said anything. In fact this is the first time I'm telling anyone this.

Back around December '07 my ex-wife recently moved in with me at University Place, WA which was near my base. I was in the military at the time. Anyways one night we got into argument about something she was secretive about (She was VERY secretive) something. I confronted her on it and she got angry and started punching me. Me, since I don't hit women (or anyone for that matter), laid down face first on the bed so she proceeded to repeatedly punch me in the back of the head until she restrained herself. I didn't report to the cops or anything, like I said I didn't tell anyone. The next day however was a real eye opener for me. The next morning for formation which we had every weekday in the military and several soldiers noticed a large bump on the back of my head. They asked, "What happened." Before I could respond, someone joked, "His wife beat him up." which lead to laughter from the whole platoon. I was so embarrassed because that is actually what happened. I ended up saying it was raining (Sea-Tac area rains a lot) and I slipped on a staircase. What Io found odd was before I was ever with my ex-wife I used to wonder why women would stay in an abusive relationship or lie about injuries when in fact I was doing that very same thing. Not sure why. My best friend at the time (who now lives in Mississippi) confronted me about the staircase thing. He asked, "You've been here long enough to know how to walk on wet surfaces." I didn't tell him either and stuck with the same story. The laughter over just the idea gives me the feeling many people don't take it seriously when something like this happens or just isn't significant I almost included "His friends would probably laugh at him" (If he did tell his friends about the abuse) in the post you replied to but then I thought it would be inappropriate. Even today I wouldn't of called the cops because she has biological children from a prior marriage. They should always be with here and having their mother in jail wouldn't be a good idea.

It wasn't the first or last time she resorted to violence. Probably only 3 or 4 times in the 3 1/2 years we were together. She threatened me with physical violence more times than I can count. In fact she reached me by e-mail a couple months ago and I talked to her. She told me I had to call her back later because she had to attend a domestic violence class. After her class she told me what happened. She hit him on the head with the bottom of a candle stick because he was "messing with her."

Anyways the emotional abuse was much, much worse than the physical stuff. Nothing like constantly being hung up on while I'm on tour in Iraq and having my concerns dismissed all the time.

No point with anything I'm saying really. I know women have it much worse largely because the man is generally larger than the woman(except in my case--my ex-wife was 10 pounds heavier and very powerful). Women are more likely to end up in the ER and men are probably more likely to start a fight because of the physical advantage.

My point with the post I made that you replied to is this. I've had a woman who runs a domestic violence shelter in Aberdeen, Washington tell us (part of a presentation) that men who are victims are far less likely to report crimes because of the embarrassment of admitting such a thing even happened.

[seabeyond]

222. i agree. and i hear you. i wish it wasnt like that, but i know it is.

my brother decades ago had a gf that got off kicking him in the balls. i told him.... punch her back. he wouldnt. i know it isnt right. but pissed me off.

i had sons grow up thru the early years of school. my oldest especially (cause the girls liked him) would get hit, kicked, ears pinched. they would tell me regularly of girls doing these things and if a boy pushed her off, he got in trouble. if a boy went to a teacher, they were basically told to man up. quit being a girl. ect..

i know we are empowering our young girls, but the mothers are not recognizing and demanding of these girls, to not get hit, you dont hit either. it is AS unacceptable.

it has been one of the imbalances in gender that pisses me off

totally agreeing with you.

i think though, if you had addressed the issue that she has violent tendencies, and you are not gonna hit back, so she needs help, that does not buy into the image that a man may preceive, ergo, stay quiet.

[JonLP24]

223. I agree with the stuff you say about genders

Here and elsewhere you make it. It reminds me when our relationship was only a few months old and the problems were starting. I wanted desperately everything to be that the way it was when we first started out. So I bought some books and one was similar to the Men are from Mars... book. Just trying to understand what I was doing wrong. Anyways that book discusses how society conditions men and women to be a certain way and most parents start up the process. Meaning, as you know boys are conditioned by peers, teachers, relatives, etc. to hide emotions, "man up". They explain this is why men often use anger to hide sadness or fear.

So I completely understand and agree when you discuss these things.

I think I understand your last paragraph. I probably did handle those situations the wrong way by not doing anything. I know the feelings afterwords I had were unbearable. Looking back I really think I should of got out much sooner than I did. I do hope she is getting help now. I don't think of her as a completely bad person or anything like that. She takes good care of her kids without much support from her ex-husband. She was also diagnosed with depression the time I've known her and I hope she is getting help for that as well.

[seabeyond]

226. i have been thinking about it a lot. my boys are getting older. and the last influx of women issue

threads had me thinking.

i was talking to my son. because i grew up in a house of testostrone males and i was in a competitive sport all my childhood, thru out teenage years, i was not raised in a real girlie environment. i was raised as a person. as odd as that sounds, that was the reality. there was no, i have to do this or that.... i was an athlete, so i behaved like an athlete. and i came out seeing myself as a person

i never lacked in my feminity or femaleness either.

i did the same with my boys, because that is who i was. both my boys excelled where they say girls excell, communication and reading and reading comprehension. being insightful. aware of wht they are feeling and communicating. but hey.... boys arent suppose to. they are suppose to lack.

we never adopted roles. they got to be true to their self and go in the direction self told them

anyway, my oldest and i were talking about it the other day, and we conclude that is why they dont adopt the hurtful roles that so many do. nor do they feel like they have to prove their manness. they are, simply from the fact of being males.

soooooo much easier, lol.

[JonLP24]

228. "they are, simply from the fact of being males."

:rofl:

I agree. It just reminded me of when I went mountain climbing with my dad in the Rockies years ago when I was kid. It was a very rough mountain and whenever there was an obstacle, like a boulder I had to climb onto, he always told me and my brother in those situations, "Be a man! Be a man!" Pretty much the whole climb. I always found it funny because I was thinking, "My birth certificate says I'm a man." :)

[cliffordu]

138. the person that battered me and my brother and sister

More than any other human in our entire lives was a woman.

dear old mom.

I don't recall the stepdad ever hitting her.

[seabeyond]

151. there certainly are abusive women and abusive mom. need to get past that all moms

are innate nurtures. no more true than men are not nurturers.

lets just stop the role conditionings. they are a big fail.

[cliffordu]

161. Yep

[chrisa]

73. +1 Agree

[prolesunited]

2. You're as much a victim as a white Republican

[lumberjack_jeff]

11. Did you see the word "victim" anywhere in that post? n/t

[maxsolomon]

3. the only rational response a straight white man can make

is to stay out of this. good luck. :popcorn:

[lumberjack_jeff]

5. Meh. They say that if your only tool is a hammer, all the problems look like nails.

But some problems really are nails.

[RandomThoughts]

6. A hammer has a claw and a head.

It is two tools.

[lumberjack_jeff]

7. Only two?

You have no imagination.

Although I've had limited luck using it as a soldering iron.

[RandomThoughts]

120. Thats cute.

expanding on an imaginative post with a comment about no imagination.

[cliffordu]

139. You can do it if you have a forge so you can heat the hammer up REAL HOT

and then work real fast.


make sure you have plenty of unguent.

[InvisibleTouch]

9. There are advantages and disadvantages to being male and to being female.

To my mind, they balance out pretty well.

[Better Today]

17. I disagree, but then I don't think a womens forum is appropriate either, or a GLBT one.

There should be one title "human rights," wherein all rights and problems therein could be discussed. jmho

[chowder66]

20. I'm sorry but can you help me understand...

what you are trying to say? I am not getting your point I think. Are you saying that white men have it bad? and we should therefore not complain? or something to that effect? Seriously, I am trying to understand this. I'm not sure I that I agree with you but as I said, I am not sure what you are trying to get at.

I started reading some of the links you provided and they tend to either contradict or delve a little deeper into the data that actually paints a bigger picture.
Things like, women are cheaper to keep employed, usually work part-time jobs and are paid 80 cents on the dollar, while also doing domestic work and child rearing.

More women are getting more jobs now that sexual discrimination is fading and opportunities are opening up.

There isn't a decrease in men going to college but there is an increase in women doing so. It goes on and on. This doesn't cover everything like most of the jobs lost are manufacturing and construction jobs which actually employ more hispanic and black men.

Then there is this....interesting article;

http://wagner.nyu.edu/wocpn/reports/Race_Gender_and_the_Recession_Job_Creation
Number of jobs expected to go to women and racial
and ethnic minorities.

Women will receive nearly half of the jobs that will
be created through the Reinvestment Act. When
the number of jobs expected to be created is compared
to the number of women in the targeted industries,
the number of anticipated women who
will become employed as a result of job creation
efforts is nearly 1.8 million, or 48 percent. Of jobs
created or saved, African-American and Latino
women will receive 420,991. White women will
receive an estimated 1,377,879 jobs through the
Reinvestment Act, a figure 70 percent higher than
for African-American and Latino women combined.
The number of African-American or Latino men
who are expected to become employed as a result
of job creation efforts is 496,684. Conversely,
White men will receive an estimated 1,633,805
of the jobs through the Reinvestment Act, a figure
close to two times the number of African-American
and Latino men combined.
Asian/Pacific Islander men and women will receive
the least amount of jobs through the Act. It
is estimated that Asian-American men comprise
only 2.5 percent of persons in the targeted occupations,
and Asian-American women comprise
only 2.2 percent. The projected number of jobs
that will be created or saved that will go to Asian/
Pacific Islander men and women is 174,874.

Table 8. Number of Jobs Expected to be Created by the Stimulus Plan by Race/Ethnicity and Gender
unemployment and communities of color
The number of jobs expected to go to racial and
ethnic minorities is not directly proportionate to
their rate of unemployment. An additional 1.7 million
jobs25 would have to be created and go direct
rectly to Blacks and Latinos to cut the unemployment
rates to the Administration’s projected national
rate of 6.5 percent by 2010.
In April 2009, the National Unemployment rate hit
a high of 8.9 percent. Since the recession began
in 2007, 5.1 million jobs have been lost, with almost
two-thirds (3.3 million) of the decrease occurring
in the last five months. Currently, there
are 13.2 million individuals unemployed. While
these numbers are bleak and cause for alarm, the
unemployment rate for African Americans and
Latinos has averaged 7.3 percent since 1999, a
number dangerously close to the current national
rate.

[lumberjack_jeff]

21. I don't know why it should be mysterious.

Men face many cultural and institutional barriers to their wellbeing in this country. The fact is that anyone who discusses them becomes a pariah. This has severe implications for liberalism and the Democratic party, because men are half the voters.

A necessary first step is to enable discussion about it.

The challenge with this stuff is that it can only be communicated in comparative terms. If I say; "Men commit suicide at a rate of 19.8 per 100,000" the immediate response is "compared to what"?

Which then leads inevitably into an argument about who is the bigger victim, because there is so much invested in that.

[seabeyond]

48. but even men, or more so men are opposed to the answer, with this specific example

men have more suicide because they are taught from a young age by society and family to repress emotion and buck up, man up, emotion are for girls.

how many women have been fighting this. and how many men and society reject womens efforts to fight this.

[zipplewrath]

53. Women attempt more

Women attempt more suicides than men, something like 5 times more often. Men are more successful. The reason is that men predominately use guns, and women do not.


So now back to your point?

[seabeyond]

55. as i was reading your post, thinking exactly that, they use guns.

my point still is there and is a reality.

[zipplewrath]

62. Well, except that you point is completely undermined

Men don't attempt more, and they aren't more successful because of repressed emotions or any other bit of psyco babble. It is for the very real reason that they merely use a method with a much higher probability of success. The reality is that women, whom you allude have some superior connection with emotion, are actually attempting far more often.

The conclusion then is that women are far more likely to attempt than men, and that there is something underlying the female condition in this country that makes them more prone to suicide attempts, than men.

[lumberjack_jeff]

89. How many men attempt suicide in the US each year?

Unless you know that, you don't have any way of knowing that your view is valid.

[seabeyond]

95. that is the facts that come up. women attempt significantly more than men. if you dont know mens

attempt, you dont know womens. if we say more women do, ... then they would have the same info on men.

all i can do it provide the info out there.

it makes sense more attempts at gun is successful than with other means. mom first tried pills. didnt succeed. then she did the car in garage. succeeded.

[lumberjack_jeff]

102. I was able to reverse engineer it from the statistics for women in post 99. n/t

[JonLP24]

218. She is right

that men and boys are conditioned to "man up" and repress emotions. Not sure if that has anything to do with suicide attempts but boys and girls are socially conditioned to be a certain way from a really young age and most parents continue this.

[seabeyond]

68. you are right. here is a link. though the last statement does support what i am saying

A woman takes her own life every 90 minutes in the U.S., but it is estimated that one woman attempts suicide every 78 seconds.

http://www.afsp.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=home.viewpage&page_id=04ECB949-C3D9-5FFA-DA9C65C381BAAEC0

but how that figures in to all the rest of the statements, shruggin.

http://www.afsp.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=home.viewpage&page_id=04ECB949-C3D9-5FFA-DA9C65C381BAAEC0

•Women attempt suicide three times as much as men.
•The higher rate of attempted suicide in women is attributed to the elevated rate of mood disorders among females, such as major depression, dysthymia and seasonal affective disorder.
•Although women attempt suicide more often, men complete suicide at a rate four times that of women.
•More women than men report a history of attempted suicide, with a gender ratio of 2:1.
•Firearms are now the leading method of suicide in women, as well as men.
•Suicide is more common among women who are single, recently separated, divorced, or widowed.
•The precipitating life events for women who attempt suicide tend to be interpersonal losses or crises in significant social or family relationships.
•Many women who suffer from manic-depressive illness experience their first episode in the postpartum period.
•Sixty percent to 80 percent of women experience transient depression, and 10 percent to 15 percent of women develop clinical depression during the postpartum period.
•Between the mid-1950s and the late 1970s, the suicide rate among U.S. males aged 15-24 more than tripled (from 6.3 per 100,000 in 1955 to 21.3 in 1977). Among females aged 15-24, the rate more than doubled during this period (from 2.0 to 5.2). The youth suicide rate generally leveled off during the 1980s and early 1990s, and since the mid-1990s has been steadily decreasing.
•The suicide rates for men rise with age, most significantly after age 65.
•The rate of suicide in men 65+ is seven times that of females who are 65+.
•The suicide rates for women peak between the ages of 45-54 years old, and again after age 75.
•Women are more likely than men to have stronger social supports, to feel that their relationships are deterrents to suicide, and to seek psychiatric and medical intervention, which may contribute to their lower rate of completed suicide.

[lumberjack_jeff]

99. The link you provided indicates that for every woman who commits suicide

there are 70 attempts.

It indicates that for every suicide among men, there are 9 attempts.

[LanternWaste]

166. Post hoc ergo prompter hoc.

"The fact is that anyone who discusses them becomes a pariah...."
Post hoc ergo prompter hoc.

I believe the claim of quasi-martyrdom referred to in this particular instance as "a pariah" is due much more to an aggressive belligerence in the posts themsevles rather than simply a position taken.

However, I due admit that the statement does have a certain self-validating charm to it. Crosses cost about $35.00, half that if we simply purchase the material and construct it ourselves.

[lumberjack_jeff]

182. I admit I'm not well-behaved.

But in a thread with this many replies, I'd expect at least a couple to have made some passing attempt to disprove any of the points in the OP.

I'm not confusing causality. My "aggressive belligerence" about republicans, dinos or the capitalist elite is cheered heartily. It's all about the topic.

But I do give you props for skilled snark.
...and I can get the material cheaper than that.

[HEyHEY]

23. This comes back to the need people have to attack men on this website

"Are you saying all men have it bad so we should not complain?"

"This doesn't cover everything like most of the jobs lost are manufacturing and construction jobs which actually employ more hispanic and black men."

Men are men, are they not? All this poster is trying to say is that it's not all rosy just cause you have a penis. He's merely asking for a little acknowledgment about the issues that affect men. Yet, anyone who tries to talk about them here is vilified. Your two question showed that you were just looking for an in to make a few digs instead of just thinking about the information and digesting it.

[chowder66]

205. Nope...that was not my intention even though

it does seem that way. I could have used a little more tact in my questioning. I was actually trying to understand what he was trying to say and it just got more confusing when I went to the links and read them. My initial understanding was off and the links didn't exactly support "my understanding" (or lack thereof) about what the poster was trying to get at. It's obviously a complicated issue and everyone has their own issues or challenges to face. Including men. I hope that makes a little sense. I shouldn't have been posting that day.

[lumberjack_jeff]

207. Tact is overrated

By all means, if you don't agree with what I'm saying, tell me why.

[chowder66]

209. As I said

I should NOT have been posting that day. I did NOT understand where you were coming from. I went back and found the original thread that led you to post this one.

I misunderstood and honestly that is all.

[Tsiyu]

32. I'm sorry your life has been so tough as a man

Seriously. I am.

But you don't seem to make much sense when you make your complaint.

For example, you complain about WIC , a program to provide nutrition for pregnant and lactating women. Have you been pregnant or nursing a baby and denied access to this program? Do you want male-oriented birthing centers and maxi-pads just in case you might get a period or get pregnant?

And you are curious as to why male violence against women is considered more heinous than male-on-male violence.

Here's what I told my five sons: "If a girl balls up her fist and hits you in the face, in most cases, she probably will hurt her hand worse than she'll hurt you. If you ball up your fist and hit her in the face, you can kill her rather easily."

You cite no statistics to prove that domestic violence is equally perpetrated by both genders, and I do not believe that claim.

If your life is hard, perhaps you can do what we women have been told to do for generations: Shut up and take it.

Because ultimately, nobody really gives a shit.

Sorry...

[Tsiyu]

33. And just now, I got pissed off thinking about this

You mention programs for women and children. As if these programs are giving women and their evil spawn some outrageous economic advantage you don't get because they may be able to buy an extra box of little Debbies this week.

Do these programs discriminate against male children? If i am a young mother with a female child, do I get first dibs? If I have male children, do these programs discriminate against me?

Fuck no.

These programs help male children who grow up to be men. So how, exactly, do they discriminate against males if they help all children? I never get why some men abhor women so much, they hate their kids too, no matter the gender of the children!


If you can't see that, and only lump women and their kids together in some nebulous, "all-girlie zone," you have problems no number of your questions can answer.

[Pithlet]

34. I know. It's just too much, isn't it?

The part about passing the costs of women's living longer on to men is a real hoot as well.

[Tsiyu]

51. As you've said here

the agenda is pretty clear with this OP.

It reminds me how some Southern whites say they won't forget a war from the nineteenth century, but these same unenlightened say they can't understand why Black folks can't forget the suffering they experienced in the twentieth century.

I'll guarantee this poster never got fired from a job because he was going to be a father, as i was fired for being pregnant in the 70's.

I'll guarantee this poster was never forced as a child to wear a dress to school - even though he wanted to climb trees and run around in the woods - as I was.

I'll guarantee as a teenager, he could play any sport his school offered, as long as he was physically fit to join the team. When i moved from Fla to Ga in the mid seventies, there were barely any programs for girls; 99% of the school's sports money went for the male football team.

Now, these problems have been remedied: job protection for pregnant women, girls can wear pants to school, Title IX. But I lived through the days when discrimination against females was blatant and acceptable. And there are too many men who act as if we're still in these days.

I am the mother of five sons and one daughter. Except for the one still in high school, all have gone to college with very little help from anyone. If the poster want to go to college, not a thing is stopping him but his own issues.

Many times white men will whine about their terrible lot in life when they get schooled for being sexist cretins. It's lame but it's predictable.


As for the "Passing on the costs of women living longer," I'd sure like a rebate for all the hours I spent covering for the cost of daycare while the kids' daddy earned a pension I'll never see! :)

[Taitertots]

251. All those problems are now visited upon young men

He would be fired if he attempted to be present as a father.

The poster would likely be forced to wear pants, even if he wanted to wear a dress.

The poster could play any sport, as long as it wasn't field hockey, volleyball, softball, or any other womens sport.

[lumberjack_jeff]

65. What about that is confusing?

The health care reform law removes gender as a rating criteria by insurers. Men accepted an instant 17% medical cost increase via health care reform.

Women have a lifetime medical expenditure 34% greater than men. Gender, more so than any behavioral critera determines lifetime medical costs, and the entire reason for the higher costs women experience is because of their longer lives.

Personally, I think that the fewer rating criteria, the better. But I DO think we need to acknowledge what we're doing.

http://www.amcp.org/data/jmcp/JMCPSupp_April08_S2-S6.pdf
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1361028/

[Tsiyu]

83. How about subsidized daycare?

A housekeeper is at least $20 an hour in this area. And daycare is $250 a week for decent care.
How many women raise kids and keep the house for significant periods and are never compensated?

Don't they pay for the childrens' fathers' ability to go to work and not have to worry about laundry or whether the kids are safe? If all things were equal, we would have a pension program for women AND MEN who stay home while the other partner has a career.

There are many areas where women subsidize men's lives. We don't acknowledge them either.

[lumberjack_jeff]

88. You forgot about men leaving the toilet seat up.

Be serious.

[Tsiyu]

92. Okay well that answer you gave

shows that this OP is merely an attention-getting device.

You're not serious, Dude.

You're in some sort of "I'm-a-victim" la-la Land.

[Taitertots]

252. You don't get paid when you are doing something for yourself

Are you going to start paying me for keeping my house clean? $20 an hour.

[Pithlet]

117. Oh, no. It isn't confusing at all. You're coming through loud and clear. n/t

[lumberjack_jeff]

121. Then the problem must be on the comprehension end of the equation.

Are you still disagreeing with the facts as I've presented them? re: "men will pay more for medical insurance to shoulder women's higher costs"

Either you agree or disagree with that. An eyeroll ain't gonna cut it.

[Pithlet]

122. And what is your beef with it exactly? Are you really going to push for a men's forum

and make that one of the bullet points in your virtual DU power presentation? Seriously??

But okay. No. Wait. I change my mind. You've convinced me. I've given it more thought. I say go for it! Yep. In fact, I think it may do it. I think you just might finally get your forum with that angle. It's a winner. And I think you should make it the very first topic. Men Shouldering the Burden of Paying for the Higher Costs of Women Living Longer. It will be beautiful! A great start to your new baby forum. It will take off for sure. The admins will love it.

Trust me.

[lumberjack_jeff]

124. Oh, I know on which side the bread is buttered.

I'll do that, thanks!

Now, since you've volunteered, I'd be happy to endorse your request.

[Pithlet]

127. Yes! My bread is buttered on the side of wanting to live.

You got me.

[lumberjack_jeff]

111. I have problems?

Seriously?

I've noticed a recurring phenomenon;

OP) posts challenging topic
response) you're a big (nazi/misogynist/corporatist/anti-vaxxer) poopyhead!
OP) Am not!
*thread locked*

It's learned behavior. The easiest way to suppress challenging viewpoints is to turn it into a flamewar via personal attacks.

If you disagree with something I actually said, let's hear it, but I'm not going to waste any time arguing about what you assume I believe.

[HEyHEY]

35. I think the poster's views on violence and social programs are incorrect

However, I certainly take exception to your statement that women have been told to "Shut up and take it." It's been a long time since that was an acceptable outlook, and that is examplefied in the amount of attention violence against women receives, as well as social programs...etc.

If you're a man you really are expected to shut up and take it, lest you be called all sorts of names and made to feel like you're some kind of shame. I blame men for that. We don't care enough about each other to actually do something about high suicide rates, etc.

The discrimination in the courts is a prime example. Christ, my father has a sister he's never met because his father had a failed marriage, the wife was an ether addict, the courts flat out gave the child to the woman despite her condition and they took off never to be seen again. In those days it wasn't easy to track people down so my grandpa never saw his daughter again. Is that fair to him?

[Pithlet]

36. There was a time when courts used to favor women. It's not true anymore.

There are plenty of parents of both genders who can tell horrible stories of woe when it comes to custody stories. The whole thing about men are victimized in the courts is a myth that still persists, but numbers actually tell a different story. In fact, when men actually contest in courts, they actually win more often now a days.

To your point about men just being expected to shut up and take it. See, I think that's just another aspect of our sexist society. And you know, I wouldn't be one wit opposed to a forum where men could go and talk about stuff if it weren't the same men making the proposal with the same obvious agenda every single time. And honestly? I think if the women's rights movement were more successful in our society? Then the issue you're talking about would get a heck of a lot better. If there weren't such a push back from a lot of men towards women and their fight, you know?

As for the rest of it. I've gone a few rounds with the OP more than once. He's made his agenda pretty clear when it comes to women's rights. He gives a few clues in the OP and some of the other posts as well.

[HEyHEY]

37. Maybe in the USA that's changed

Canada still has a long way to go in custody disputes.

I've not really followed the men's forum argument. DO these people actually want a forum to talk about stuff that matters, or are they truly looking for some kind of bell-tower to snipe women's concerns?

Cause what has just done my head in here is when men try to argue men's issues and bring women into it. They have nothing to do with each other. You can say, "Hey we need to be doing something about high suicide rates in the male population" but as soon as you add, "Because women get all the money" The entire purpose of the first thought becomes void as the flamewar ensues.

Again, men need to band together to do something about these issues if they are EVER going to be solved. And the men who DO need to stop dragging women into it.

[Pithlet]

38. You're right. I don't know about Canada.

I think the number I'm thinking about only deal with the US.

Men banding together to do something about their issues. Of course. There's nothing wrong with that. The dragging women into it is the problem I'm having. It seems to be pitting one against the other. It's the cornerstone of a movement that claims that the women's right movement takes away from men. It's called the "men's rights" movement. There are forms of the movement that are outright hate groups. It's why I oppose such a forum. I really feel it has no place on a progressive message board like DU. If, especially from the beginning, other DUers with a better track record had been proposing such a group, I and others might not have gotten our hackles up. But from the beginning, others who had proposed it had a similar angle. The red flags went up for me. I've opposed it since. I know it probably doesn't seem to make much sense to some who might not know the history, and think it seems like a reasonable request.

[HEyHEY]

41. Well, if that's their plan then it shouldn't be instituted

Seems to me, if enough men wanted to talk seriously about this kind of thing, there would be enough legit posts in GD to warrant a forum. But, I certainly have no interest in seeing a forum where discussing men's issues consists of bitching about women's issues.

[lumberjack_jeff]

109. It IS a reasonable request.

And your admitted bias against it isn't really an argument. You don't like the idea so you're trying to use the fact that you don't like me as a reason.

That's not a reason, that's an excuse.

FWIW, and not that I have any realistic belief that it will change what you choose to call me, but I'm not a men's rights advocate. I don't have an issue with "rights" - I believe that for all practical purposes, men and women have equal rights.

My thing is awareness and advocacy. Men have problems in this society, and few people really care, except to the extent that working toward solving those problems might rob resources from the efforts society applies toward solving the problems women face.

[Pithlet]

118. I have nothing against you personally. I don't know you.

You can call yourself whatever you wish, but if you think that men and women have equal rights now, and that is what you advocate, and that is what you wish to advocate in your new forum, then that isn't some benign, neutral POV. It certainly isn't very progressive. You even seem to contradict yourself. Men and women are equals and have equal right in society, but yet mens needs and issues and rights are ignored. Hmmm.

[lumberjack_jeff]

123. Then we have fundamentally different ideas about what constitutes "equal" and "progressive"

Your equality tally sheet is very selective.

And a men's forum wouldn't be "mine", it would be DUs.

You say that "MRA's" are threatening because they demand additional rights, yet someone who suggests that the genders have essentially equal rights now is equally threatening. The only apparently non-benign viewpoint is that the gender war must go on until some undefined later date. What's enough? 100% of workplace deaths? 0% of college graduates? 100% of the homeless?

[Pithlet]

126. Don't ascribe arguments to me that I don't make.

When have I said they are threatening? I haven't said squat about MRAs other than I with the more extreme groups I find their views repugnant. But threatening? Nah, I think they're mostly all bark. Progress marches forward whether they like it or not. I don't think they're actually going to hold us back forever. I simply think their views have no place on DU. I stand by that. No more than any other form of right wing bullshit.

[lumberjack_jeff]

128. If men's "views have no place on DU"

then we're actively embracing irrelevancy.

There's no significant distinction between the argument I just ascribed to you and the one you just made.

[Pithlet]

129. Ooh. Using the selective quotes to twist words now. Getting down and dirty!

I've really riled you up, haven't I. Guess that means it's time for me to bow out now. I feel l've made my point and it's just sport now. I don't want to be mean.

[lumberjack_jeff]

106. It's impossible to discuss this stuff in anything other than comparative terms

"Not enough men go to college"
"27,000 men kill themselves each year"
"men only live 7 years in retirement"
"men pay more for healthcare than they recieve in services"
"men experience lots and lots of violent crime"

None of these observations make any sense (and no one really cares) without something to compare them to. It's impossible, and inadvisable to not drag women into it. They are half-owners of this society, after all.

[HEyHEY]

132. You can discuss it like that, but it can be worded in non-confrontational ways

You don't see Asians pointing at Gay people when it comes to rights saying "But look at all the attention gay people get!"

I realize there are only two genders (for the most part) but that doesn't mean it always has to be an us crs them type argument.

[lumberjack_jeff]

134. I don't excel at "non-confrontational".

I'm not well-behaved. Sorry. :shrug:

Not everything is a battle, even if it's perceived that way. I don't want women to suffer comparable workplace death rates - I want them to join the trades so there is some impetus to make workplaces safe. I don't want them to suffer as many layoffs as men have, I want men to suffer fewer and get some empathy for the mental health issues that follow. I don't want fewer women to go to college, I want more men to - and to choose careers in elementary education.

Social policy can and should promote those things, and that is where the unavoidable confrontation happens, because there's a lot invested in the status quo and our selective quest for equality.

[Hosnon]

66. What state do you practice in? In Georgia, women are still heavily favored. nt.

[Pithlet]

119. Well then. It should be easy to show the numbers.

And it could very well be true that in some jurisdictions, one gender is favored over another. And in those instances it should be addressed of course. I also think it should be worth noting that where conservative courts still favor women, that isn't the fault of the feminist movement. That's due to old fashioned, conservative sexist notions. Since when has the women's rights movement has ever been about keep women in the kitchen and caring for the kids? No, the men's rights movement has it all wrong when they go after the feminist movement on this issue.

[Tsiyu]

46. I could tell you stories that would curl your hair

about custody of children. In my own life and from what I've seen professionally.

Currently, one of my clients is an attorney in the Juvenile Courts. I cannot speak for all courts, but this court does not concern itself with the gender of parents. Both fathers and mothers are awarded custody fairly based on the Best Interest of the Child.

I read their cases for a living. And I have not seen any bias. Different courts have different agendas, of course, but we have come a long way from the days when women and children were property and men ALWAYS got the children in a divorce.

[seabeyond]

52. i watched my brother spend over 100k to fight for daughter and mother have access to free

council. i watched a court in trial and bottomlined it, the father is a better parent and needs to be in child life, but the mom isnt beating the kid and daughter needs mom so we will give to mom.

it was truly sick.

but, that was local.

when the case was in texas, i watch the court handle it fairly and daughter was awarded to brother. in just got kicked out of this state and sent to louisianna.

[seabeyond]

50. i disagree HH that we are not told to shut up and take. i feel like i am told that often

consistently and i think it is in thsoe recent threads.

again a disagreement.

but i am willing to address the male issues too. they dont need to shut up either.

[Tsiyu]

58. Yes

In fact, this poster was telling women that what they claimed happened to them was false because "he" never experienced it. So "Shut up and take it" in his case was "Shut up becasue you're lying about this happenning to you."

Seems he might want to open up his mind and listen to others so that he might learn something. Instead, he felt compelled to come up with a list of wrongs he feels men have suffered so someone would listen to him.

I love human beings immensely most days, male and female. The issues that hurt one gender hurt all genders. I want to listen as well, but when someone is complaining about a program for pregnant and nursing women, I just have to say bullshit. Should we eliminate the program because men can't participate?

White men have been favored since the beginning of this nation. They owned everything, they could vote, women were merely property and could not inherit family land or keep custody of children if there was a divorce. So we started some programs to even out the playing field - loans and grants for female businesses, etc., and suddenly the entire history of institutionalized sexism never happened!!!! It's all a vast conspiracy now to keep men down because women get a gallon of milk and some cereal through WIC or a loan (that no bank would ever give them before) to start a small business.

When I see the pictures of the laws being signed removing more of my rights as a woman, I see a lot of old White guys in the shots.

Where has the OP ever seen a gang of white female legislators smiling as they surround a desk to witness their female president sign a law making Viagra illegal?


He'll never see it.

[lumberjack_jeff]

63. Do you really think that "shut up and take it" is exclusively a female phenomenon?

A case is made for a paradigm having developed amongst family violence activists and researchers that precludes the notion of female violence, trivializes injuries to males and maintains a monolithic view of a complex social problem

http://www.mediaradar.org/docs/Dutton_GenderParadigmInDV-Pt1.pdf

I didn't complain about WIC. I noted that it wouldn't be constitutional if the ERA ever passes.

[Tsiyu]

90. Imagine seeing twenty female legislators

surrounding a female presidents's desk.

They are all happy and smiling as President She signs a bill that makes Viagra illegal.
All the women are so happy that Viagra is not going to be allowed anymore because THEY know what is best for you and your male sexual organs!

Will you ever see that in your lifetime?

Can you imagine how you would feel?

Imagine how we women felt when Obama caved on choice in the Health care bill. Can you? Suppose he caved on Viagra in the health care bill?

NOT GONNA HAPPEN TO YOU, DUDE.

But we were told to "Shut up and take it" right here at DU


As for ERA, I believe we are a smart enough society to separate pregnany from the gender equality, just as we would still allow men to have publicly-funded prostate surgery even though women don't have prostates....Really....

[EOTE]

164. Obama outlawed abortion?!?!

Wow, I wasn't aware of that, thanks for informing me.

You might want to try to use a bit more intellectual honesty with your comparisons. Perhaps a valid one would be that female President signing a bill that prevented medicare from providing Viagra, but not outlawing it. People would still be able to get it, they'd just have to pay for it themselves.

And I can very much imagine that happening in my lifetime.

[Tsiyu]

242. I dont have to imagine choice being taken from me

about what my insurance (if I had any even with this bill) will or will not cover.

Lack of Viagra ain't gonna kill anybody.

Pregnancy can be deadly.

But I'm glad you "can imagine it." That's comforting.

[MedicalAdmin]

186. If the era ever passed the law would be changed in common process

Where all laws are examined, and those that don't totally contradict the amendment can be modified and passed by omnibus bill. Beleive t or not there are processors in place for just such an occurrence .

Likely if the ERA passed WIC would become a parent, infant and children bill but still cockaded primarily on pregnant women as it is now ... Unless you think male pregnancy is a growing problem?

[McCamy Taylor]

39. Attempting to divide men and women will get the Dems nowhere---except Divided and conquered.

[BoneDaddy]

60. True

but the obvious anti male attitude that is pervasive in DU makes it difficult to have even a civil conversation because basically we are told to sit, shut up and take it. That doesn't work for this man. A small percentage of DU women who are angry, hurt, wounded and at times very vengeful, think that DU is the place where they can vent their rage at men. This is not a therapy session and if this sort of behavior was allowed to continue against any other group, it would be stopped. It is en vogue to vilify and attack men. Many women feel justified and I and other men are simply not going to sit back and watch this train wreck occur.

[lumberjack_jeff]

79. Is pointing out that 33% of women have been sexually assaulted...

... an attempt to divide men and women? The difference between "awareness" and "flame bait" is apparently the gender of the suffering party.

We're already divided. There is no good reason that men should be so much more likely to vote for Republicans.

[readmoreoften]

40. Because sexism harms both men and women.

If you want to fight for the rights of men, you have to fight for the rights of women. Sexism and Homophobia oppress straight men too.


(1) Sexism in the workplace has lead to turning "mens work" into lower paid "women's work". Now that women are doing the job, it pays less. The "executive assistant" only needs to make $35K, not $65K because she's "not a breadwinner." With the exception of one worker, last year male workers in my job made 3 to 5 times as much money as female workers, who were much more numerous. More women doing more work for less money. Had the ERA passed, this wouldn't be an issue. There'd be no incentive to fire high-paid men to hire low-paid women.

(2) Men lost the jobs. Well, yeah, they're firing you to exploit younger females who they can pay less.

(3) 80% of homeless are men. I'm not sure this is accurate, since 40% of all homeless are LGBT youth. But I guarantee that this comes from 2 places:

(a) Racism: Black men are far more likely to be homeless than white men. Racism has always kept Black men out of both white collar jobs and blue collar jobs. This "woman-as-low-paid-breadwinner" schtick is very familiar to African-Americans.

(b) Combat veterans from Vietnam & now Iraq/Afghanistan.

(4) Men represent 92% of workplace fatalities. This is quite obvious. Men don't let women take dangerous, macho jobs like fishing and construction.

(5) Die of suicide 4x's as often. This doesn't mean that men are more depressed than women. It means that we live in a sexist culture where men are shamed if they try to seek help.

[HEyHEY]

42. A couple things.....

"This is quite obvious. Men don't let women take dangerous, macho jobs like fishing and construction."

You're just twisting things to find a way to blame men. I didn't realize that construction sites were lined up with women waiting to apply and kicking stones home with their heads held low when denied. As well, there are plenty of jobs men don't do and would never be considered to do. When was the last time you saw a male receptionist?

"Die of suicide 4x's as often. This doesn't mean that men are more depressed than women. It means that we live in a sexist culture where men are shamed if they try to seek help."

I don't think that's what the poster was saying. I think the poster was flat-out pointing out this high suicide rate and that nothing is done about it. The fact men are ashamed to speak up about it shows that it is a problem and a men's issue.

As for the racism, a man is a man as far as I'm concerned. They are two different issues.

[Pithlet]

43. It's true. We don't line up. That reminds me of something that happened

when I was in Kindergarten. Now I know that little kids often want to be something when they're little so it doesn't necessarily mean anything, but I think these things still mold us and guide us, and could be why we don't line up for these jobs. But when I was little I really wanted to be a fireman. It was because I loved the show Emergency, from the 70's. Never missed an episode I was obsessed. So one day in class we got to draw what we wanted to be. And my teacher asked me why I drew that, because I was a girl, and then the whole class laughed. Now who knows if I'd been a boy, I might have been encouraged. I might be a firefighter today. I don't think something like that quite that drastic would happen today, but I'm only in my mid 30's, so the change, it's still happening slowly. I think the subtle societal pushes are still there. I'm still not sure that parents are thinking "I'll encourage my little girl to be a fireman!" And it isn't just men who do it, of course. In my case it was my female kindergarten teacher. But my point is, our society still pushes females in one direction and males in another. I'm not sure anyone is blaming men, really. It just is what it is.

[HEyHEY]

44. I remember a similar experience

When a girl said she wanted to be a hockey player when we were about seven. However, I was lucky in that at my school tomboys were generally often befriended by the boys. I remember one girl named, "Sam" who would hang out with us and play in the mud and such, we treated her the same as any boy and to this day, cause I still know MANY of my schoolmates, every now and then someone will bring up, "I wonder whatever happened to Sam."

It seems a different experience from what I've heard elsewhere though. But I did grow up in Vancouver, which is as liberal as they come, so the parents likely gave their kids better tools.

[seabeyond]

54. who do you really think is going to fight the hardest for mens emotional health

and acknowledgment of that shame and doing something about it. every woman that loves a man is fighting against a society adn MEN about the repressing of feeling and shaming in acknowledging feeling. this is an issue within the male culture.

[Tsiyu]

64. True that

In fact, I have posted about my concerns about America's young men and the awful suicide rate. I don't think even one man responded.

It does concern me greatly.

I have dozens of kids who call me "mama." Some because their parents have disowned them or becasue they won't talk to them without putting them down. I have counseled all of these kids, mostly male, taken them to the Health Department, talked them out of suicide, fed them, protected them from the cops (when they were trying to interrogate them with no parent or attorney present).

How to help? Adults need to mentor young men and women. The OP can help by volunteering. But using these issues to justify ones own past ignorance is not, to me, an attempt to solve any of these problems.

[lumberjack_jeff]

85. Why do you assume I don't volunteer?

Not that it matters to the topic.

[lumberjack_jeff]

82. No.

We are a society with finite resources.

Each man who suffers emotional problems and is lucky enough to have a partner in his life has one advocate.

Women have an infrastructure of people and social programs dedicated to that task.

The one advocate doesn't have the pull that an array of advocacy groups do.

It's a problem with the male culture to the extent that they allow their issues to be drowned out. Simply read this thread to see why.

[seabeyond]

97. i dont know of any advocacy group for either gender so i cant go there

that at least, is a plausible answer. though i dont now if it is factual. hey.... i am all for kicking the societal conditioning bullshit given to men to the curb, absolutely. i think it is crock. i dont allow with my boys and they are healthy and balanced, and.... true wokin on men. i help my hubby along, but he is well repressed.

i dont like it either.

and it isnt about emotions. i am not huge on emotions. not a real girlie girl (or what society tells me i am). but... i identify and know what i feel, and am allowed to own it and heal it.

[HEyHEY]

131. I said it is, I completely blame men for it.

Men don't care unless something happens to them personally.

[readmoreoften]

112. You're irrational. I'm trying to find solidarity between men and women. You're just

claiming sexism doesn't exist and that's fucked up and ridiculous.

Yes, women do want to work construction jobs. I'm a lesbian--I know a shit ton of women in construction jobs and many of them were harrassed. Let's get real now. Is that ALL MEN? No.

"A man is a man." When it comes to homelessness? No, sorry. White men discriminating against Black men is not "all women's" fault.

Keep up your childish "man vs women" posts. Let's see where that gets you.

[lumberjack_jeff]

115. I spent most my career in office jobs.

I recently became a boatbuilder. 90% of the interactions in the boatshop would be considered harassment in any other workplace. It was a bit of a culture shock but fairly quickly I realized that that's just the way they roll - you're expected to dish it back.

I would very much like to see more women in the trades, but the trades are inherently dissimilar to office work. My wife is a bookkeeper for a machine shop and she says that once she got used to the culture, she likes it a lot.

[bettyellen]

153. "I would very much like to see more women in the trades, but the trades are inherently..." ha ha ha

listen to yourself for fucks sake, making excuses for discrimination against women and hostile work enviornments.
Real nice.

[lumberjack_jeff]

163. "I want to see more women in the trades" = discrimination?

Do you own a dictionary?

[bettyellen]

165. "90% of the interactions ..would be considered harassment...that's just the way they roll" WTF?

more sexist bulllshit: what;s inherent, why are women better suited to offices? and saying a woman should "get used to it. " Oh really? You have no clue how sexist all of these statements are?

[lumberjack_jeff]

171. I'm saying that banter is ubiquitous in the trades.

If I were a woman, I can imagine that it would have been intimidating at first.

[bettyellen]

177. you're accepting a hostile work enviornment and saying women just have to accept it and that's BS

i can't belive you're the sme person whot thinks there;s some conspiricy keeping men out of teaching elementary school. it's called low pay, and men don;t want it.
now shop work pays pretty darned well, and they do everything they can to make it a hostile harrassing workplace to keep women out, you say so yourself. and you have no problem with it.
that's fucked up.

[lumberjack_jeff]

199. Everything you just said is inaccurate. n/t

[bettyellen]

201. im quoting you , but whatever

[lumberjack_jeff]

202. No, you're telling us what I think.

And you're doing it wrong.

[bettyellen]

203. you refer to on the job harrassment dismissively, as" just rolling", so I do know what u think

Im not guessing here, you told us, you don;t think it;s a problem. Thanks for owning up to it.

[Tsiyu]

225. I suppose it's just all fun and games

if you're not the "other."

Professional kitchens are the worst. Even though cooking in the home is girlie, of course males dominate the chef world where the $$ are.

And the arrogance is worse than among talk show hosts or doctors or attorneys.

Their mouths can only say "F*G, C**T, Your Mama, Your Face," etc. until you want to gag from the absolute inanity of it all.

"That's just the way it is" they say as they complain about all the breaks they don't get in this life.

[bettyellen]

234. it blows my mind that he wasn;t even aware of the tacit approval he gave harrassment

totallly unaware because as you said, it's all just a game. i truly feel like in this case anyway, the men's rights stuff is just a ploy.

[Tsiyu]

243. Some of us (guess which gender?) are told,

"That's just the way it is."

And the same ones telling us that, turn around immediately and claim that they are "disadvantaged" and that We-who-must-accept-the-way-things-are just don't care about them at all.

'Tis mind-boggling.

[Pithlet]

244. Funny how that works?

A head scratcher, isn't it?

[Tsiyu]

245. We used to call that a Double Standard

back in The Day.

We're not allowed to use that phrase now that everything is equal and all, or else we are accused of denying someone else's disadvantage.

The rules are complicated, indeed.

[bettyellen]

248. what amazes me, is he had no idea he was saying he was condoning sexism in the woekplace. NO CLUE

i imagine he thought he was dancing round the issue, not revealing his
'thoughts" cause that;s how he "rolls". Doh!

[bettyellen]

249. .

[bettyellen]

204. .

.

[HEyHEY]

130. Where do I claim sexism doesn't exist?

Did I blame women for what happens to black men? No, I said, that you cannot divide men by race when you're speaking about men's issues in general.... when you want to be specific, sure. But saying, "Oh, they're black men" is like saying somehow they don't count.

NONE Of my posts have been "Man vrs woman" I have been actively speaking out against that... its seems you're the one with the chip on your shoulder.

[seabeyond]

47. without looking at any other posts.... HUGE issues for our young males that we NEED to address.

huge. and i am there with you. i have two sons. we address the issues in home so i am not concerned about their future. it doesn't mean i am not concerned for all the other young males. what is happening to our males will not stay exclusively with the males. it will equally effect females. it effects us all. it is a collective effect. if you dont care about boys, a person should be concerned, cause regardless, it is going to effect girls

i happen to care about boys as much as girls. equally. hands down

there was much more in that post than your two issues. that is important to go beyond that. but even at that, with this post, and the outcry from men saying it is the obvious, what did happen, was many stories were shared. and what manifested were a lot of men saying they did not realize that rape was so prevalent. or.... what exactly is rape. like date rape and drinking. and some clarification was established with that. so, though you dont see a productive end result, i do. any time awareness manifests, i celebrate.

another issue, is many many of these issues are not recognized by men. men we need. men that need to be aware. they are not aware because it is not in their life. but that does not mean it exists. that is not blaming men. it is human behavior. there are issues for men that women do not recognize because they dont live it. that is no more healthy. just as destructive and women need to be aware, to understand.

some men on that thread like you and a handful more were bothered by the condescending attitude of thread. i get that. acknowledge and get beyond to conversation, interaction and understanding. i am sorry those men had a continued hard time on the thread being heard

some of the men were there to battle their cause of behaving however without ownership.

thanks for the post. now i will read rest of thread.

[lumberjack_jeff]

76. Raising awareness is my intent.

And raising that awareness among men is equally, if not more, difficult due to the unhealthy partnership of a couple of destructive cultural attitudes.

:hi:

[seabeyond]

98. right there with you.

i dont know that you really touched on the real issues that hold men back. or the nitty gritty of what i see in the whole thing.

but.. i am too chicken.... to lay it out here. and i have to run to school nurse for kid. will get back

[lumberjack_jeff]

103. Interested to hear it when you have time. n/t

[CBGLuthier]

49. I would suggest Tite Bond III

to secure that chip thoroughly to your shoulder. It is waterproof so your bitter tears should not be a problem.

[gkhouston]

137. DUzy! Best post in this thread.

:applause:

[uncommon]

57. If you want a men's forum, ask for one the right way.

For the 1,000,000th time. Please, take your MRA bs to a private forum.

There are social problems for all individuals - yours is not systematic oppression, that is the point feminists on DU have been trying to make every time you bring up your statistics. There is a difference between systematic oppression and social trends.

[Name removed]

59. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[seabeyond]

61. to be clear, are you saying.... that the people not agreeing or contradicting

lumberjacks numbers or links have no valid issue or argument in this thread? i understand there are attacks, and the post you addressed is seperate of those discussing issues from op, though disagreeing.

i am just asking for clarification.

[lumberjack_jeff]

69. I would expect valid arguments to refute the statistics.

Otherwise, it's just more feelings trumping facts.

Not that feelings are invalid, but feelings backed by facts are more so.

[uncommon]

70. You need statistics to show that male "oppression" is not systematic?

1. They have been provided previously here on DU, by myself and others.

2. Ha. Ha. Ha.

[lumberjack_jeff]

86. Yes, actually. Thanks in advance. n/t

[seabeyond]

74. but there are. i have read them. the suicide for example. more women attempt

more men successful. women tend to not use gun cause gross, mess them up. men use gun and are successfully. though more women today are using guns. but still, .... that really eliminates that argument. the only thing that has to do with gender is weapon used. not an institutionalized grievance. there have been contradictions on some of the other claims you have made.

[lumberjack_jeff]

78. Okay.

For the sake of argument let's accept the equivalence between depression and actual suicide.

Then how many men attempt suicide? I've searched and can't find that statistic. It is almost as if it doesn't matter.

For the record: I don't actually accept the equivalency. Suicide is a bigger problem than depression.

[uncommon]

81. Depression, being more widely suffered, has more of a cumulative effect on

society.

Suicide is obviously more serious on a micro-level.

[BoneDaddy]

87. I unfortunately do not have the time

at this moment, at k, to be sifting through websites.

I am commenting less on male oppression syndrome and, like you stated, links to other seperate discussions, and more to the attitude and obvious dislike of men by many women in DU that is so often overlooked, ignored and in many cases justified. You are one of a number of women able to walk a balanced line of discussion where you make excellent points and yet I have a sense that you do support and love men, having two sons, as I do.

I jumped on mostly because of the posts that have emerged over the past couple of days and that I tend to support LJ in many of them.

[seabeyond]

100. thanks for response. was curious. nt

[Tsiyu]

67. Obviously YOU know how to project!

The "the angry wounded anti male brigade???????????????????"

You have lumped some DU females into a group you have even NAMED pejoritavely?


Jesus H on a hockey stick.

I'm going to do some chores. the idiocy never ends.... :crazy:

[uncommon]

71. +1

[BoneDaddy]

93. If the shoe fits

wear it. I am not labeling all women, like all men are labeled in here. There are women I have received support from but there are a significant minority who clearly hate men and use EVERY opportunity to slam us. You clearly seem to be leaning in that direction.

This type of generalization that occurs is one of the few, that are allowed to exist as totally ok and justified by the admin in DU. In fact it seems to be encouraged.

There also a group of "self hating males" (another group) who pander to the AWAMB's because somewhere they were emasculated and have spent their time trying to get into the good graces of women who could care less about them.

[Tsiyu]

101. I've encountered all types here just as in real life

But I have never lumped all of the misogynistic males into one pile and given them a name.

That would mean I was looking for a group to attach a title to to suit my own agenda or that I believed there was some conspiracy with those males.

Let's face it, we're ALL fucked up to some degree or another. We ALL have issues. I prefer to view each poster as an individual, not lump them together into some evil army of men or women against me.

The poster responded in threads where women gave specific examples of personal injury.

this OP has yet to give one example where he, personally, was oppressed by the system.

I would hate to hear his personal experience was hurtful, but I would listen.

Instead, he speaks only in general terms, trying to make us believe he is ooppressed but never giving any concrete examples of his personal oppression.

If you feel oppressed, write about it. Stop demonizing women here. It's cloddish and ugly and your ugly words do nothing to foster conversation.

[lumberjack_jeff]

104. "I have never lumped all of the misogynistic males into one pile and given them a name."

:rofl:

The unintentionally funny is the best kind of funny.

My personal experience (except that which I experience here) isn't relevant to the point I'm making. I have found that people who want my personal story don't want it for sympathy value but to better tailor the personal attacks.

I'm not oppressed, nor am I a victim. But I'm also not obliged to ignore the problems I see around me.

[Tsiyu]

105. Funny how you still

can't give any precise examples of your oppression.

We're all waiting.

Oh, people might attack you as you have attacked others when they related their stories?

I see. You fear what you are! You fear being treated the way you have treated others. I understand now!

And do you have a link where I lumped all the males into one pile and gave them an ugly name?

Please share.

You are pathetic, really...but you've amused many today.

[lumberjack_jeff]

107. Do you have anything of substance to add to the discussion? n/t

[Tsiyu]

108. If there had been any substance to the OP, perhaps

I see now that your aim was not to discuss, but to divide.

yay you!

Have a nice day....

[lumberjack_jeff]

116. Mother may I? n/t

[dkf]

125. Generally you won't find many supporting grievances of the so called privileged.

Not feeling much liberal guilt myself I wander into that a lot.

[cliffordu]

135. Well......

:popcorn:

[lumberjack_jeff]

142. You came in late.

There's not much popcorn left.

[cliffordu]

143. That's alright,

I'm here for the carnage. Plenty of that left.

[lumberjack_jeff]

145. Oh, yeah. "Brave guy", you.

;)

Can I call you Sir Robin? :hi:

[seabeyond]

154. bah hahahaha. lol lol. oh.... nt

[cliffordu]

160. If'n you have to....

I'll be here behind my yellow flag......

[lumberjack_jeff]

162. Oh, go change your armor.

:rofl:

[cliffordu]

210. Well.....

:rofl:

[ismnotwasm]

136. Well guy

Of course anybody can post statistics. Or the reasons for particular statistics.

But one that particulaly bothers me, not in your group is the number of young, black Males in prison-- just as a for instance-- But not to divert from your topic of plight of white males here.

What I think, is that you're looking at classism and imposing gender values on it.

Now, I have a SIL and daughter who think men are being what they call 'emasculated' I've kind of shrugged it off. SIL is a decent hard working man, a bit too conservative, but able to hold a lively and friendly conversation with me, a feminist. When I pointed out this site for instance as common ground, on the 'emasculation' topic;

http://www.mencanstoprape.org/

He agreed with it. He doesn't deny the experience of women and violence, or as epidemic human rights violating gender specific violence. Men who rape or degrade women are part of those he calls emaculated. Another (very briefly here) part of it is they both feel men have 'lost thier place' in the world. Are confused about how they're suppose to act. This is where they lose me, because decent behavior is not a gender specific value. What I gather you don't understand is women expect decent behavior from men. At least I do.

Men, according to your statistics, are violent toward other men (as well as women) Is that a 'men's issue? Goddam right it is.

Look, males rule the world. You dominate governments including our own. You dominate courts. You dominate research and development, you own most of the cash flow and the media. Looking on your side of it--I think--we seem to have a Alpha, Beta and Omega arrangment. Alpha get the most, Beta's get a little and Omega's get shit. That's what you get in a patriarchy. If we are to rid ourselves of sexism, racism, and classim, we'd have to shitcan patriarchy.

By the way, some lone idiot catcalled me when I was walking home from work today and I'm fifty fucking years old. And no, it's not a compliment. I'm tired, I'm middle-aged and I've earned the right to walk down the street in peace.

[HEyHEY]

140. I'm sure many black women have it harder that white women.

Yet, we don't seem to separate the two when we talk about women's issues do we? If we do, please tell me, but I've never seen it.

I don't think the poster was talking about "white men" just men in general. As well, I agree there is more of a class issue than anything going on, so why do people tie gender to it so much?

[Pithlet]

141. Actually, I'm not sure if it's been addressed on DU, but it certainly has in feminist discussions.

i would be surprised if DU hasn't ever addressed that.

People often do bring gender into it. But I have seen those issues such as prison population, an issue that overwhelmingly affects males addressed on DU many times without it devolving into the "gender wars" I do agree that a lot of it has to do with class issues. Which is why I sometimes cringe when people say things like "privilege", because if we're going to come together on these issues, it's going to be mighty hard to convince people who aren't in positions of power that they have privilege, even if in many ways it's true. They will shut down when they hear things like that, and it's understandable. But the reason gender does often tie into these discussions is because the people who are in a position of power use a system that relies on sexism to keep the classist system going, and it's one that affects us all. Gender often does plays a part. And too many people get defensive when that's brought into the mix instead of listening. You seem to get that sexism hurts everyone. Some don't hear that. They want to think that everything is equal and there's no need for feminism anymore, and those who are still fighting are only hurting men. It's unfortunate.

[lumberjack_jeff]

144. The most commonly used mission statement for feminism is "equality for women"

That's not a quest for equality, it's advocacy for women. There's nothing wrong with that, to the extent that women experience injustices or disadvantages they speak up and raise awareness.

It's not me who wants to suppress opinions. Since womens experience says that feminism is still needed, a corresponding advocacy viewpoint is needed to raise awareness about the injustices and disadvantages men face. The result of this thread is a great example of why men can't count on feminism to fight sexism. They are not dedicated to eliminating sexism, they are dedicated to eliminating only the parts of it that harm women. Everything else is a potentially harmful distraction.

But you're absolutely right that beating the guy in the single-wide over the head about his privilege while he's trying to figure out how he's going to afford to buy gas to get to the coalmine monday AM after finding that half his paycheck was garnished for child support, and the other half was used to buy drugs to treat his black lung disease, doesn't do any good if the goal is to get him to vote for Democrats.

[Pithlet]

149. I said I was done with you but I have to address this:

"They are not dedicated to eliminating sexism they are dedicated to eliminating only the parts of it that harm women" This is utter bullshit. One of your biggest issues is your fundamental misunderstanding of what feminism is. Your view of it as one monolithic entity is wrong. Is one of feminisms goals achieving equality for women? Of course it is. But plenty of us are also concerned with sexism and how it harms society, and that includes its affects on men. There are PLENTY of us who are concerned with that aspect of that. As a mother of boys I I'm concerned of the affect sexism has on them, i.e being teased for being "girly". Being afraid to show their emotions. Those are aspects that concern me as a feminist. Feminists aren't all one big block with one focused goal. We aren't the enemy of men. Your constant instance that we are is your hang up.

[uncommon]

152. It is not feminism's responsibility to make things better for men.

Sorry. Kthxbye.

Seriously - as liberals we all certainly strive to make life better for *everyone* - but as a feminist, coming from a feminist viewpoint, some of us have chosen our battle. We fight for those who are suffering most, and then for everyone.

You are free to do the same, but you really cannot expect feminists to come running to a "what about the men?" rally any time soon. We have our own work to do.

[lumberjack_jeff]

158. Uncommon, meet Pithlet, Pithlet, meet Uncommon.

Actually, I agree with you in this sense; It isn't feminism's responsibility to make things better for men, because equality isn't the goal, advocacy for women is. Pithlet also considers herself a feminist but considers this view bullshit. This isn't really a manifestation of a fundamental split among feminists rather it's an attempt to have it both ways; advocacy disguised as equality.

It's pointless to try to change your mind about who is suffering most, but it sometimes appears impossible to convince you that men are suffering at all.

It is men's responsibility to make things better for for men through advocacy. Women who won't honestly listen shouldn't expect too much effort in return.

[Pithlet]

167. Kinda proved my point, didn't it.

We're not monolithic. Although I'm not sure she and I are really disagreeing on anything. And I didn't say advocacy for women wasn't feminism's goal. Obviously it is, duh. If your contention is that it shouldn't be, that's pretty stupid. It's like someone complaining that the NRA cares about guns. My point was that your claim that feminists don't care about men was bullshit. Here's one right here who does :waving: We do exist! But if you want to mope and complain that it isn't our primary goal as a group, well, that's idiotic. I'm sorry.

[lumberjack_jeff]

172. translation: "I care..."

"But not so much that I'm willing to let you talk amongst yourselves. That wouldn't be progressive."

Do you not recognize that this "disagreement" has only one manifestation? Men should a) "shut up because feminism has the equality thing under control", or b) "stop being such a wuss, if you want to fix your problems, you have to put on your big boy pants".

The main disagreement in feminism is what men should do, apparently.

[Pithlet]

173. No....

DU isn't the appropriate place for an anti-feminist MRA advocate to spread his agenda. That's my point. EditOr more accurately, my point is he seems to be perfectly able to do so out here in GD. Why give him his own forum. A form specifically for that isn't appropriate on DU.

[seabeyond]

175. me too. steinam, too, per colbert the other night. our sons. our hubbys.

of course we care.

[Pithlet]

181. There's a lack of maturity going on with that mindset.

Oh, there just isn't enough room for men if there's an orginization who's primary goal is focused on women. If such an orginization exists, it MUST be harmful to men. There simply isn't room for both and it must be at cross purposes. LIke it's a zero sum game. It reminds me of that phase of childhood development where kids can only be friends with one person at a time. Or when a parent has another child, and the older one thinks it means they aren't loved anymore. The OPs mindset that in order for there to be advocacy for men, there has to be a target against the one for women is just ridiculous. It's laughable, really.

[lumberjack_jeff]

184. No, for there to be advocacy for men, there has to be advocacy for men.

Your stated expectation is that feminists such as yourself should have veto power over that.

No one that I'm aware of is suggesting that there shouldn't be a (or multiple) women's forum(s) at DU.

[Pithlet]

187. Nope. I've never once said there shouldn't be advocacy for men.

My point in this thread and others like it has only ever been that I'm essentially against a forum for advocating against women's rights on DU, and that's what a men's forum as you propose, would do. I'm not against anyone advocating for issues that affect men. I never have been. You are the one who really seems to have a bug up your butt about feminism and equal rights for women. For some reason a lot of organized mens rights groups focus furiously and in a negative way on the feminist movement. You remind me a lot of the members of those groups because you parrot a lot of their talking points.

[lumberjack_jeff]

189. ... only that it "has no place on a progressive website"

a) you can't know what men will talk about in a men's forum. You have even less clue than I. All we know is that it will comply with the rules of DU.
b) prior restraint isn't a progressive value either.

[Pithlet]

191. I wouldn't have a clue? Only going by what you yourself say when you post these proposal threads.

You even had the guts to post pissing and moaning about how healthcare reform is making men shouldering the burden of women living longer! You did that. But gee. How could I possibly even suspect what might go on in a forum which while you're making your argument for your forum , you refer to the the fight for women's rights as the "gender wars" What could your motivations possibly be? What kinds of discussions could you have in mind?

You're right. Advocating against equal rights for women has no place on a progressive forum. That's a no brainer.

[lumberjack_jeff]

195. It wasn't "pissing and moaning". Bragging would be closer.

Informed men who support healthcare do so KNOWING that our costs will go up dramatically to share the healthcare costs of your longer life. Other things being equal, our costs will go up 17% and yours will go down 17%.

... but since men are roughly 25% more likely to be uninsured, the end goal is worth the cost.

http://www.statehealthfacts.org/comparebar.jsp?cat=3&ind=137

[Pithlet]

200. Oh..... n/t

[uncommon]

148. Actually feminists do recognize that as a class, women of color are worse off than

white women.

[lumberjack_jeff]

159. ... just as black men, as a class, are worse off than white men.

The question I have is that why black men are in such tremendous distress if their gender provides relative privilege - insulation from the disadvantage resulting from racism?

If the patriarchy works as advertised, one would expect black women to have less education, fewer opportunities and shorter lives than black men.

[seabeyond]

155. women absolutely identify that the black woman is left out in the cold

at every turn. we have talked about it. often. and recognize. and validate the black womans life, cause it is her reality.

[lumberjack_jeff]

146. Anyone can, but nobody does..

My topic isn't the plight of white males, but of males in general. Yours is a red herring, dog-whistle, call it what you want. It's an attempt to discredit the point by associating it with the boogey-man.

Nothing about any of those statistics can be blamed on class, unless you assume that women are more likely to be in a higher class.

I wouldn't use the term emasculated, but more like arrested development. Too many people grow up not knowing anything about what it means to be a man, except as a bigger kid. They aren't really taught responsibility (in a way that males understand) that previous generations did.

I'm all for shitcanning the patriarchy. I suspect that means different things to you than it does to me.

[uncommon]

147. +infinity - excellent post

[seabeyond]

156. excellent post. nt

[MrScorpio]

169. Allow me to hand you a Damn Skippy

[seabeyond]

178. i love the sparkly. nt

[pinboy3niner]

214. Very well said!

I'm fresh out of sparkly Damn Skippies--all I have to offer is this: :hug:

[MrScorpio]

168. Dude, I'm not here to criticize...

But, I just want to know, is this thread is working out like you expected ?

[lumberjack_jeff]

174. It's proceeding exactly as I expected.

Trolling for recommends isn't me.

[MrScorpio]

176. More power to ya

Have fun!

[lumberjack_jeff]

206. Telling people the stereotypes they already believe isn't "raising awareness".

[MrScorpio]

208. Hey, if you're looking for a fight, my man, look elsewhere

This is all your dog and pony show now, not mine.

Peace Out!

[DailyGrind51]

213. No one really knows anything about what any poster has experienced,

not whether or not what a person claims to have experienced is based on that person's reactions to something that occurred rather than the actual event. The disadvantage of all message boards is that genuine truth is never known.

[lumberjack_jeff]

216. Everyone's experience is valid to them.

Experience backed by demonstrable reality is valid to us.

[DailyGrind51]

235. If an individual's experience results in a generalization, we have a stereotype!

[DanTex]

221. I think a number of "feminists" have shown their true colors in this and other recent threads.

I put "feminists" in quotes here because I agree thoroughly with the need to address the sexism we have in our society, but unfortunately the feminist movement includes a minority who believe that one way to accomplish this is to perpetuate the stereotype of man as uncontrollable sex-driven violent neanderthal oppressors who couldn't possibly also be hurt by the screwed up society we live in. And this element of the feminist movement is not helping either men or women. Indeed, due to these vocal "feminists", other feminists often find themselves having to say things like "I'm an advocate for women's rights, but I'm not a man-hater".

To highlight a few comments.
--"Shut up and take it" like "we women have been told to do for generations". "Because nobody gives a shit".
--In another thread "i am seeing a whole new phenomenon with our males. they are all about their penis. it rules. it is beyond all things."
LOL. Yeah, how shockingly "new", never heard anything like that before. Also, somehow I don't think a man posting about observing a "new phenomenon with our females" would be greeted too kindly.
--In response to the statistic that men are victims of the majority violent crimes, the solution is to "get your fellow MEN to stop being violent"
What a great idea! I'll get right on it! Hey fellow men, WTF is with the violence!?!? Stop it!!
--"Some guys on this thread clearly need your ... advice as it seems they are not getting laid ... often enough"
Now this is an ingenious way of challenging gender stereotypes. What, you disagree with me?? That's because you're a loser who can't get laid!


To be honest, I don't really agree with the OP's interpretation of many the statistics being discussed. For example, I think complaining about how women's health care costs more is inappropriate; as a progressive I believe that everyone deserves decent healthcare, and society as a whole should pay for it regardless of who might require more or less care. Also, I've never heard of "Men's rights", but by nature I am skeptical whenever a traditionally dominant group (men, whites, christians, etc.) starts to claim they are being discriminated against. Nevertheless, we live in a society that is messed up in many ways. Some of the problems affect women uniquely. Some of the problems affect men uniquely. A lot of problems affect everyone. It's not a competition. Women get breast cancer. Men get prostate cancer. Which is worse? Does it matter?


And I do agree with OP about certain recurring patterns that arise in gender discussions, as exemplified both here and in the thread about a week ago regarding "advice for men"/"don't rape women"/"how to score on spring break" to which he refers. Actually, that thread seemed like it was written by a 17-year-old and directed at 16-year olds, which is fine (and BTW I absolutely agree that teenage boys should be taught to treat women with respect and that violence against women is wrong in all circumstances). But we're (mostly) adults here, and the noteworthy thing to me was chorus of approval from "feminists" who really seem to believe that these "lessons" were important for men on DU to hear. Despite my low post count, I think I speak for, really, 100% of the men on this board when I say that I need to be told not to rape women about as much as I need to be told not to beat children to death. Maybe I'm wrong, in which case some men might come forward and describe how useful this all was, that they never realized women were real people who enjoyed sex and didn't enjoy being raped. If so I will stand corrected. But until then I'll stick with my 100% estimate.

I would hope that liberals would be able to stay away from such stereotypes because in the end they don't help anyone.

[seabeyond]

224. i cant help it, i was thinking with my little head. MILF. thread useless without pictures

evolutionary behavioral biology. cant help myself. biology.

bewbie bewbie bewbie

waaaaaa, i want my sex thread
sex thread
sex thread

and you are blaming the feminist?

am i allowed to disagree without being "blamed" for this....

you will generally find that it is the women, and especially me that argue this is not what man is. and i won't be arguing with other women either. i will be arguing with men. further, they will then accuse me of hating men

how does that wrap up in your blame the feminist argument?

[Pithlet]

229. Edit wrong person

I
Edit this was supposed to be in response to post 221. Sorry, seabeyond. I wasn't responding to you :hi:

[seabeyond]

231. lol

were you calling me a beeeotch.

playin

:hi:

[Tsiyu]

227. In context

I gave the Op "shut up and take it" because that was HIS take on other posters' descriptions of their experiences.

Do you understand irony? Teaching by making someone walk a mile in someone else's shoes?

And it has also been the response given to many women in posts concerning women's issues here on DU.

I have been a member here for a long time. I have posted about many, many issues affecting men. I never saw any of the people complaining about the lack of coverage of men's issues here responding to any of those posts, despite their claims that DU "does not care" about men's issues.

To take one sarcastic comment posted as a "how-does-it-feel" device and defining me or anyone here shows your agenda, dear.


FAIL

[lumberjack_jeff]

236. No. You said it because you wanted me to shut up. nt

[Tsiyu]

241. On the contrary

I've learned much about you in this thread, and about other posters. I'm not much for censorship, rarely alert, don't have anyone on ignore.

I added that comment as an aside.

It does suck to be told that.

Welcome to the club. Glad I could enlighten...

[Pithlet]

230. Are you even aware of what caused the recent dustup?

it was a cartoon that was posted about the harassment that many women face on a daily basis. The dismissive reaction of a few DUers touched off a quite a reaction. It led to a lot of what you saw, which seems to have garnered your disdain. And if you weren't even very aware of the men's rights movement before now, then I'm skeptical of your depth knowledge of the feminist movement. So, I'm afraid I'm not going to lose a whole lot of sleep over the fact that you disapprove of some of our reactions. :shrug:

[lumberjack_jeff]

237. You didn't read me complain about the health care subsidy.

I think public health is everyone's problem. Since the only way uninsured men (60% of all uninsured) can get insurance is to agree to share the disproportionately high healthcare costs of women, so be it.

I can live with that. I simply don't think it's bad form to point out the sacrifice men are making for the cause of public health. And yes, when a poster complains about trivial issues with men (eg housework), I think this is not an unreasonable response.

Increasingly, we're not arguing over "fair". We're arguing over the exchange rate.

[Pithlet]

238. Now this is hysterical.

You're not for real, are you? Come on, you can admit it if you want. Are you putting us on? If you have, it's been brilliant, I must say. Particularly this bit. If you're serious, I'll give you points for originality. Longevity in exchange for dirty socks on the floor! :rofl:

[lumberjack_jeff]

239. I need a playbook

It's bad form to point out I'll die younger.
It's bad form to point out that I'll pay more for health insurance because I agree to share the cost of your longer life.
It's bad form to point out that 25% more men are uninsured
It's bad form to point out my sons are more likely to suffer violent crimes than their female peers.
It's bad form to point out that they are four times as likely to die of suicide.
It's bad form to point out that 50% more women will go to college than men.
It's bad form to point out that the people who have lost jobs in this recession are almost exclusively men, but maybe that's not such a bad thing because they suffer 94% of workplace deaths anyway.

...and it is really ridiculous to suggest that any of those things should be considered when discussing the really important stuff... such as who does the dishes.

Does that pretty well sum up what I need to know to get you to agree that the menfolk can talk among themselves?

[Pithlet]

240. It aint gonna happen Mr MRA

By aint gonn happen I mean you aren't convincing me to change my opinion on the matter. You just aren't. So save your typing muscles. I'm not buying what you're selling. Even if you're amusing me at the moment.

[m00nbeam]

246. Sounds like he ought to write himself a Caucasian Animist Manifesto

Poor poor white male, who is suffocated by his white male privilege.

Where should I send the symphony orchestra to?

[Pithlet]

247. ANd you know why you aren't going to change it?

Because men dying younger has nothing to do with the feminist movement. Too bad your brain has been addled by the MR movement into thinking it does.
Because your hoo ha about health insurance is another hair brained talking point also inserted by some MRA website that you somehow thought germain to talking us into a men's site. Again, really nothing to do with anything. Universal healthcare would benefit us all, and it's ridiculous to pit men against women in this regard. Only someone who's been brainwashed by some stupid MRA site would buy that bullcrap.
OKay, more men are uninsured? That's horrible. Again, Universal Healthcare. I bet many, if not most of Feminists are for it.
The violent crimes issue? I have sons, too. Need I say more?
Suicide? Again, I have sons.
The college thing. Yeah, so, Who's fault is that? Feminists? So you'd like to get together and figure out how you'd all like to convince boys that education is a good thing. Great. We can all talk about how to do that in GD. Because again. I have sons, too. I'm also interested in that topic. It's a worthy topic for GD. Women are also interested in getting boys interested in education again, and not so much in roll models like Kobe Bryant, who didn't go to college.
People lost their jobs were exclusively men? That's news to me.

[Warren DeMontague]

232. Bogey says "I'll have the jumbo size"

You should have been here for the 2005 Porn wars. Those were fucking EPIC.