Well, this is frustrating!

[johnaries]

I have seen many divisive posts here on DU bashing Obama and Dems in general. Now, I believe that no one is "perfect" and no one is above reproach. But what distresses me is how so many things have been "twisted" and how much "disinformation" I have seen posted here that seemed perfectly designed to divide Liberals. We already know that the Republicans have supported the Green Party to try and siphon off votes. Many times, the disinformation posted here on DU seemed to come straight out of Karl Rove's book of dirty tricks!

There are many examples that I could cite, but for the sake of brevity let's just pick one example; The Fiscal Commission.

Frankly, even though it was originally a Republican idea, the concept of an Independent, Bi-Partisan committee with strict rules to independently analyze the budget is a damn good idea. It's also NOT what the Republicans had in mind when they proposed it. Republicans are very afraid that the commission will recommend a VAT (Value-Added-Tax) as well as other progressive taxes on the rich. Even if the commission recommends minor adjustments to COLA, etc., those adjustments will be minor compared to the additional revenue sources that are bound to be recommended. The Republicans do NOT want an honest assessment.

Yet, most of the criticism of the Fiscal Commission has come from the Left, which was dubbed almost immediately as the "Catfood Commission" (an interesting misnomer, very similar to the term "Death Panels". Coincidence?)

From the beginning, the "Catfood Commission" was used to bash Obama and Dems in general, claiming that it was only implemented to "betray Leftists". The bashing started out as saying that the whole purpose of the "Catfood Commission" was to privatize Social Security. Once that meme was dis-proven, the meme changed to "slashing benefits" and "gutting SS" for the smallest adjustments in increased payouts. You know, Rovian techniques.

And these incendiary anti-Obama and anti-Dem posts thrived. Many claiming for the masses to "rise up" against Obama and offending Dems.

Yet, when I or others sought to cut through the bullshit and see exactly what the Commission was discussing, and even offered ways to "rise up" and "make your voices heard", these posts sank like a stone. Here's a personal example:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=9082882&mesg_id=9082882

I have seen many similar examples, so don't accuse me of some kind of "ego" failure.

WTF? Do these posters really not want to see the truth, or even try to implement the "change" that they are calling for? Could it be that they are posting divisive posts simply to be divisive?

Oh, BTW, in recent news DKOS caught a troll. Not that we would have any here, of course:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x9090537

As for me, I say "put up or shut up." If you have a complaint, then make your voice heard. Write your Congressmen and the Fiscal Commission or whatever group you have a beef with.

If you're not willing to do that, then don't waste my time.

[DJ13]

1. Yes, a commission is a great idea.... if its composed of people without an agenda

Obama's commission was set up with 14 members (out of 18) who have a long history of publicly deriding Social Security in the past.

Its no coincidence that number (14) is precisely the number needed to approve any cuts for recommendation to Congress.

In Vegas thats called stacking the deck.

[johnaries]

9. Ah, no. You are "spinning" the truth.

Please go and educate yourself. I would provide the link AGAIN, but I am just plain tired of providing the same info over and over again.

google is your friend.

Educate yourself.

[DJ13]

10. I've read the stuff

But I dont wear rose colored glasses so I might have missed what ever you think you saw.

[johnaries]

18. But that's not really my point. I liked Hill's paper because it

represented some "out of the box" thinking. To be honest, there are some things about it that trouble me. Still, I think it considers some further consideration.

But my point is, there are many here who have jumped to conclusions or (worse) allowed others to make conclusions for them. Many of these people do not try to follow any research, but simply allow themselves to be "lead". Further, when given the opportunity and tools to actually "take action', they would rather not do anything but complain.

You at least appear to be a "thinker" who actually considers the facts when they are presented before you. Perhaps we could have a serious conversation. I honestly believe in the serious exchange of ideas. What I am railing against is those who twist facts to fit their own preconceptions.

[RandomThoughts]

2. The phrase 'Put up or Shut up.' is interesting.

That is a form of control, or thought of relevance. It makes the requirement of someone else to prove something to someone elses satisfaction.


Theoretically, that Randi Magician guy should send me that check he offered to anyone that could prove the supernatural.

But what would he do, say it does not match his standard. In the same way, most that say put up or shut up, ask for things to be proven based on how they see the world, and from that it sets the issue on their home court, prove it to someone else, based on their standards, they just move the goal posts.


Many people that say put up or shut up, really are saying that you have to convince them to their satisfaction, when the only thing they will believe is that you are wrong.

It is interesting, and why it is not much of an argument, nor really worth spending time on.

[johnaries]

15. And how interesting that you twist my words.

the phrase "put up of shut up" simply means that if you are going to complain about something, then you should do something - anything! - to try and improve it.

It is meant for those who constantly complain about their situation and yet do nothing to try and change it - apparently they simply enjoy complaining.

[RandomThoughts]

17. Not my intent.

I was discussing the phrase, not your comment.

No offense intended, it was not about your comment, but about feelings and thoughts when such a thing has been said to me many times.


Yet you again actually speak of my situation. I will not do anything to improve my situation, because I am already due. It would be insane when already due to do something else expecting that would achieve something different.

And to do something, would be to accept the injustice done before.

So I do nothing with all energy and focus I can muster, to set right what I can find that can be helped, and also to set right the injustice done to me.

I wont accept injustice, that is what I would have to do to 'just move on' and forget what needs to be corrected. Although I do not hold people to blame either.


And I do not complain about my situation, I simply state that it will be corrected.

I call my situation Craptastic :) And know it will get better :)

[johnaries]

23. In that case, I applaud you!

Are you familiar with the Daoist concept of Wu Wei?

There is a difference between trying to inform others and trying to influence others. I fully support the spreading of information. I do not support the purposeful spreading of misinformation. And when someone spreads what I believe to be misinformation and then refuses to act, it makes me even more suspicious of their motives.

Forgive me for being overly suspicious, but there is a lot of misinformation being spread across all venues.

[RandomThoughts]

25. You can learn from anything though.

And thanks for the kind comment.

:hug:

[johnaries]

28. So True! And I think that everything that happens should be

viewed as a "learning experience", whether good or bad.

My favorite saying is "Good Judgement comes from Experience. Experience comes from bad judgement."

BTW, Wu Wei basically emphasizes "action through non-action". I can remember many times where I "intervened" in a situation rather than allowing it to play out to it's natural conclusion - and I only made it worse. I like to think of it as canoeing down a river. A poor canoeist is always "over-compensating" and paddles hard to stay in a straight line but keeps going from one side of the river to the other. A good canoeist paddles only enough to line his canoe in the right current, and then let's the river current do the rest of the work.

:hug:

[RandomThoughts]

31. The phrase I use

Weather the storm, and ride the wave.

Sounds sort of the same.


And when going upstream, find the wind :)



Although in the book Dune, something important was said, "you have to be able to move within your myth", many times a current in a stream will try to point your direction the wrong way, so you also have to be able to navigate the many currents in the stream.

It is commonly used with things like flattery or ego, to get a person to no longer choose a branch of the river, but to direct them down one. Seems that happens when a person follows a myth, and that becomes the person, instead of who they chose to be.



So not sure if I follow that exactly, but definitely believe in doing nothing when nothing is better, but also other things with timing of small adjustments whenever possible. But without thinking it is doing anything, but more being part of many things done.

Hard to explain.

A drop of water does not a stream make, nor does a tree make a forest. That is another phrase, posted years ago that I think on around that topic.

[lonestarnot]

3. I am personally suspicious of every screen name I do not recognize.

:P

[Fumesucker]

6. Who are you and what have you done with OPERATION MINDCRIME?

:evilgrin:

[lonestarnot]

7. He's with Stewey, Louie and Dewey.

:evilgrin:

[Fumesucker]

8. ...

:hi:

[MadHound]

4. What got your dander up, gin or scotch.

Johnarie's monthly pick a fight with the left post. How boring. Bye:hi:

[johnaries]

11. "pick a fight with the left"? I AM on the Left!

I woudl say that your are NOT on the Left, because you seem to stymie the efforts of the Left to make any progress. So, there! :p

[MadHound]

12. LOL!

Scotch it is, delusions and anger in a drunken combination.

It wouldn't be an election season without you determining who is with you and who is against you, all without a shred of evidence from real life.

Carry on:hi:

[johnaries]

29. Actually, I hate Scotch. And how amazing that you can so easily

dismiss the statements of others as being drunken delusions.

And, obviously, you have me confused with someone else. How much Scotch have YOU had?

[Fumesucker]

5. In France there are riots and strikes because there is talk of raising the retirement age..

To 62.

From 60.

Here we'll just thank our overlords for the smack with a paddle and ask if we can have another.

[johnaries]

13. Yep, I heard that on NPR which some people here hate. I emailed

the Fiscal Commission and all 3 of my CongressPeople the Stephen Hill policy paper about the benefits of increasing Social Security and encouraged others to do the same.

did they? No. That leads me to believe that they don't really "believe".

Could it be that many of the loudest critics are actually... could it be that there are "sock puppets" here on DU?

Hmmm.....

[nadinbrzezinski]

14. Just because there was a suck puppet found at DKOS

does not mean they are hiding behind every tree, bush and hill.

Silly, silly, silly season, which comes with loyalty oaths.

[johnaries]

19. and you honestly believe there are none here?

Really?

[nadinbrzezinski]

21. Far less than you think

I am willing to bet on it.

Ok sorry, you caught me... mea culpa, sock puppet... :sarcasm:

Now here is the problem if you keep thinking they are hiding behind every post, the paranoia will be fun to watch. Almost makes me want to go into lurker mode. I mean that paranoia can tear sites apart. Seen it by the way, in the bad old days of USENET.

[johnaries]

24. LOL! And yes, it can tear sites apart. Which is also part of the

purpose of trolls and sockpuppets.

Remember, the price of freedom is eternal vigilance. and just because you're paranoid doesn't mean that they AREN'T all out to get you! :)

[nadinbrzezinski]

26. Keep feeding it

Me... sock puppets of the world, UNITE... as well as TROLLS.

Cleanup on aisle five is always fun.

[johnaries]

30. I'm assuming you forgot the "sarcasm" emoticon.

And I'm also assuming that you are not suggesting that there are not any trolls or sock puppets here on DU, since it has been so well documented so many times. Although many kudos go to the Mods for catching the majority of them, let's not forget that it has also been documented here on DU that many trolls are professionals. And it would be quite naive to assume that the Mods - as good as they are - have caught all of them.

I certainly don't claim to be any better than the Mods at recognizing trolls and sock puppets and I certainly wouldn't accuse anyone of being such - I like to give everyone the benefit of the doubt. But to believe that they don't exist is like believing that it won't rain tomorrow because it didn't rain yesterday.

It's actually a compliment to DU. If they didn't consider DU influential, then they wouldn't bother.

And I know you don't consider DU inconsequential - do you?

[nadinbrzezinski]

32. I chose not to give them the power you are giving them

When one is detected... that is what a nice pizza is for.

And no it is not inconsequential insofar as poor staff reads this place, just like they read DKOS and Free Republic looking for trends.

That said, I refuse to give a troll, suck puppet that power. If and when they are found... cleanup on aisle five... much healthier than suspecting every poster that is new, which then moves into those you may not like.

Yes there is legitimate griping here. Problem is that the griping keeps people off more effective action, but that leads to the Turner hypothesis in the internet age... and quite frankly the few that were trolls, and staid here for years UMC for example, many of us knew and at times just fed him.

But there are also people ON ALL SITES, who do things to get attention they don't have in the real world. They may look like trolls to you, but in reality they are closer to what we in EMS called a 51-50.

But realize there are real gripes, and democrats are not the most central of parties, hell republicans are not either, the great weakness of American Political parties. Also we have what 488 elections (house) and 33 elections coming up (senate). They are all individual, and we have cadres getting mobilized, and at times the interest of a local cadre is not the same as another... what can I say, all politics is local. So frankly I don't give a damn about them. And when their goal is to seed division, it is hard to do when you don't care... and are in their face.

Paranoia is not good, online or off.

[nashville_brook]

33. how do we know that proclaimed troll hunters and mod fans aren't trolls themselves? wouldn't that be

perfect cover? "hey, i love all the mods and i'm the biggest troll hunter on the board, therefore i'm the last person who'd be taking $$ for posting."

it's not inconceivable.

[Fumesucker]

27. By the same token, terrorist only have power if you allow them to scare you..

Trolls only have power if you take their trolling seriously..

Back when the IRA was bombing pubs in the UK, as soon as the mess was cleaned up in a place that had been bombed it was packed with customers telling the IRA "fuck you, you don't scare us"..

That's the difference between a population that's come under actual fire and one like the US that's never run that gauntlet in living memory.

[Fumesucker]

22. Paranoia strikes deep

Into your life it will creep

[Fumesucker]

16. Umm... A "sock puppet" is when a poster has two (or more) personas on a message board..

Usually to use them in order to frame easily defeated and ridiculous arguments with one persona to be knocked out of the park by the other.

You know, like Shari Lewis and Lambchop.

A hint, sometimes trolls slip and say things like "Democrat voters" since so many right wingers are incapable of writing the word "Democratic"..

[Better Today]

20. How do you know whether or not they did?