I'm AGAINST burning the koran, and FOR letting the NYC Islamic Center be built. BUT...

[Syrinx]

I don't understand such passionate support for the rights of Muslims, by the very same people that decry the sins of Christians just as passionately, every day.

I'm neither Christian, Muslim, nor Jew. I think all of those are kind of silly, actually.

But does anyone think that Islam is really more tolerant of individualism than Christianity is? Or that gays, or unmarried fornicators, are treated better by Islam? I think not.

Is there any country in the world that is dominated by Christian theocracy? I can't think of one. Even if you include Vatican City, in your definition of a "country," I can't think of any nation that would sanction the stoning death of a young woman because her husband accused her of adultery, based on "Christian Law."

I'm all for Muslims in American to be allowed to practice their faith, as I favor Christians and Jews to do the same.

But it is disconcerting to see so many self-professed liberals falling all over themselves in order to defend the most repressive "faith" on Earth.

I thank my own good luck to not have been born in Iran or Saudi Arabia. What hell-holes of oppression those nations are. And even relatively modern Indonesia, the largest Muslim nation on the planet, still has something called a Religious Court.

We have our own religious fanatics here in the US and the Republicans pander to them during election season, but we all know the Republicans' real agenda is financially based. They don't really want to overturn Roe v. Wade. It's just too good of a campaign issue.

But there are countries on this planet where you can get executed for holding hands with someone. And those are countries which are not dominated by Christians or Jews.

I endorse religious tolerance. But get a grip. Islam is not a friend of a free society. And it befuddles me when I see Christian-hating message-board members post earnest defenses of something they know so little of.

[LostinVA]

1. I deplore the inherent misogyny of Islam

As well as the cultural misogyny of Islam. I believe it is quite a bit worse than that found in Christianity,

My feelings on this have nothing to do with my support for their freedoms guaranteed under the Constitution. I believe marriage equality is guaranteed under the Constitution as well, even if we don't have it. It would make me a hypocrite to not support Park51's right to build. Anything else would let the bigots win, often the same bigots against GLBT rights.

[Syrinx]

2. I agree with you

[boston bean]

3. I think it's a horrible idea to burn the Korans, just as I think burning the Bible and Flag

are bad ideas, because it inflames tensions.

But all are freedom of speech. I believe the constitution allows it. No?

So, I guess I'm playing devils advocate, if you support constitutional rights to build a mosque as freedom of religion, why would one not support the right to burn a koran, burn a bible, burn a flag as freedom of speech?

[LostinVA]

17. I think there's nothing "wrong" with burning anything

Although burning any book kind of gives me teh heebie jeebies.

[Regret My New Name]

22. Well, burning the koran/bible/flag is destructive, but building the Islamic Center is constructive

At least on the surface. Although, I can see how the building of the Islamic Center could be as destructive if it causing more animosity. But it's really only causing animosity because the people who are against the Islamic Center seem to view it like we're at war with Islam, and this is them celebrating "victory".

Ennh.

Anyway, I guess it comes down to the you may have the right to do it, but it still doesn't mean it's right or a good idea. Things would be much easier if people could just play nice with each other.

[alc]

27. bill of rights limits government

You're not using the first amendment wrong, but I have seen it a misused a lot recently and I think a lot of people do not understand the bill of rights. It gives us rights and limits government. It does not limit us in any way (other laws do that).

It's good for social pressure to limit speech in ways that the government cannot. I would not want the 1st amendment chipped away with exceptions here and there. But society can limit speech by changing what is/isn't appropriate, and letting those limits expand/contract over time.

There are many people who use the n word in private, but wouldn't think about it in public. I'd guess there would be many more book burnings if society didn't criticize those who do it. If the government outlawed the n word or book burnings it would be a 1st amendment issue. If the public stops them it's not. I think it's a good thing when people speak their mind AND a good thing when there's a discussion of whether or not it is/was an appropriate use of the 1st amendment right in our current society.

Also, the right to speak doesn't mean the right to be listened to, or respected, or not be criticized, or not made fun of.

[Toots]

33. Does it seem at all ironic to you that burning someone else's free speech

is an example of your free speech? :crazy:

[ProgressiveProfessor]

53. There is a difference...the xtians are much less likely to riot or otherwise get violent

Where muslims have a track record of doing so over what they consider sacrilege

[blogslut]

4. Faith/Religion is the tool

The real oppressor is poverty, ignorance and a lack of individual autonomy. Despots use religion as a means to keep the masses hoping for a better afterlife as opposed to rising up against them.

[Syrinx]

5. well said

[blogslut]

6. Don't be so quick to praise me

It wasn't so long ago that nations ruled by Christians did the very same things. In fact, if some fundamentalist xtians had their way, those dark days would return.

[Syrinx]

7. sorry to praise you :)

But it was a pretty long time ago.

[eridani]

9. Islam came 700 years after Christianity

It took Christianity about 1900 years to mellow out, so at those rates we should expect an end to Muslim theocracies around the year 2600.

[msanthrope]

71. The Civil Rights Era was a pretty long time ago?

Do you recall the Civil rights Era, where god-fearing Christians rioted in the streets, burned crosses, burned competing churches, bombed synagogues, and lynched human beings?

You know, when good Christians wrote decsions like this? Upheld racist laws based on their Christian beliefs?

This wasn't too long ago:

"Almighty God created the races white, black, yellow, malay and red, and he placed them on separate continents. And but for the interference with his arrangement there would be no cause for such marriages. The fact that he separated the races shows that he did not intend for the races to mix."

http://wings.buffalo.edu/law/bclc/web/loving.htm

Have yu seen this video?????

Think these aren't Christians? Rioting? Attacking a black man?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwaNRWMN-F4

[Raspberry]

8. Really?

Just how long ago was it that women in "Christian countries" were stoned to death? Or had their genitalia mutilated? Or were not allowed, under threat of DEATH, to show their faces in public?

[blogslut]

21. How about today?

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE58M4Q820090923
http://www.iheu.org/iheu-calls-better-education-and-policing-eliminate-witchcraft-and-witch-cures-africa
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/witch-hunt-africas-hidden-war-on-women-1642907.html

...All promoted and encouraged by "Christian" leaders.

[LostinVA]

30. You also need to read up on the FLDS

Right here in the good old USA.

[SwampG8r]

70. mormanism isnt christianity

[sinkingfeeling]

75. Really? Says who? LDS says "Of course we are Christians. Why would anyone say otherwise?"

http://lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideNav=1&locale=0&sourceId=e0710e2cbc3fb010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&vgnextoid=024644f8f206c010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD

[SwampG8r]

78. well good for them

they get an opinion just like me
mine is mormanism is not christianity

[sinkingfeeling]

64. Can we count burning witches at the stake?

[liberal N proud]

10. All religion relies on submission/suppression of its members

[wookie72]

41. ALL Religion?

Quakers? Zen Buddhism?

Actually, all government requires a form of "submission." We all can't do absolutely anything we want, that's the nature of a social contract.

[kwassa]

61. Bullshit.

[baldguy]

11. Christianity isn't a friend to a free society - something it shares with Islam.

No dogmatic religion is a friend to a free society. And the more wealthy & powerful the religion, the less friendly it is.

Thankfully, America isn't a Christian country. IT NEVER HAS BEEN. It styles itself as a free country in which individuals have the liberty to attend & practice whatever religious devotions they choose. What allows such a society to exist without descending into endless sectarian violence is mutual respect the different beliefs, practices & faiths of individual citizens. If you're opposed to burning Bibles, you should be opposed to burning Korans. If you have no objection to building a church next to Ground Zero, you should have no objection to building a mosque.

Also, the people behind the Park 51 development DID NOT ATTACK US ON 9/11! To conflate them with the murderers who did - as wealthy & powerful Christian extremists want to do - is at best ignorant; at worst it fosters the very same hatred & threat of violence that we, as Americans & liberals should be seeking to defeat.

[Syrinx]

14. so far I'm agreeing with everybody

Check the time-stamp. :)

[LostinVA]

18. Christianity as preached in the Gospels is fine

But, throw in that idiot Paul, and forget it.

[SwampG8r]

72. amen

paul is the poison in christian philosophy
i reject all paulist teachings

[wookie72]

43. Actually, the very idea of a free individual

comes from religious thought.

[baldguy]

48. And the idea of a totalitarian govt comes from religious thought as well.

It was called the Byzantine Empire.

[wookie72]

49. So it's a wash

Bertrand Russell, no fan of religion, argued that the faith of the early abolitionists gave them the gravitas to shame their neighbours into giving up their slaves (this was pre-Civil War, actually pre-Revolutionary War).

My point is that the idea that "religion is entirely about controlling others" is simply not borne out by the facts.

[annabanana]

12. "the most repressive "faith" on Earth"

I am looking forward to your course on comparative religion. Will you be including

•Christianity
•Catholicism
•Christian Gnosticism
•Eastern Orthodoxy
•Oriental Orthodoxy
•Protestantism
•Restorationism
•Mormonism
•Druzism
•Islam
•Sunni
•Shafi'i
•Hanafi
•Maliki
•Hanbali
•Shiite
•Alawites
•Ismailis
•Wahhabi
•Sufism (a form of Islamic mysticism)
•Nation of Islam
•Ibadhiyya
•Ahmadiyya
•Judaism
•First Century Messianic Renewed Judaism
•Pre-Rabbinic sects
•Essenes
•Hebrew religion
•Pharisaism
•Sadducees
•Rabbinic Judaism
•Conservative Judaism
•Orthodox Judaism
•Ultra-Orthodox Judaism
•Modern Orthodox Judaism
•Hasidic Judaism
•Reconstructionist Judaism
•Reform Judaism
•Falasha Judaism
•Karaite Judaism
•Rastafari
•Samaritanism
•20th Century Messianic Renewed Judaism II

Religions of South Asian origin
•Ayyavazhi
•Buddhism
•Theravada
•Mahayana
•Vajrayana
•Hinduism
•Vedanta
•Vaishnavism
•Swaminarayan sect
•Gaudiya Vaishnavism
•ISKCON (Hare Krishna)
•Saivism
•Saktism
•Smartism
•Yoga
•Jainism
•Sikhism

Persian religions
•Manichaeism
•Zoroastrianism
•Mytraism
•Zurvanism

Religions of East Asian origin
•Confucianism
•Iglesia ni Cristo
•Juche
•Mohism
•Shinto
•Oomoto
•Taoism
•Tenrikyo
•ching hung
•ting hung

African-American religions
•Candomblé
•Haitian Voudun
•Macumba
•Santería
•Umbanda
•Winti

Faiths of indigenous peoples
•African religions
•Akamba mythology
•Akan mythology
•Ashanti mythology
•Bushongo mythology
•Dahomey mythology
•Dinka mythology
•Efik mythology
•Egyptian mythology
•Isoko mythology
•Khoikhoi mythology
•Lotuko mythology
•Lugbara mythology
•Pygmy mythology
•Tumbuka mythology
•Voudun (Voodoo)
•Yoruba mythology
•Zulu mythology
•European religions
•Anglo-Saxon mythology
•Basque mythology
•Chukchi mythology
•Druidry
•Finnish mythology
•Greek religion
•Hellênismos
•Roman religion
•Norse mythology
•Asatru
•Slavic mythology
•Middle Eastern religions
•Yezidis
•Native American religions
•Abenaki mythology
•Aztec mythology
•Blackfoot mythology
•Chippewa mythology
•Creek mythology
•Crow mythology
•Guarani mythology
•Haida mythology
•Huron mythology
•Ibo mythology
•Iroquois mythology
•Kwakiutl mythology
•Lakota mythology
•Lenape mythology
•Navaho mythology
•Nootka mythology
•Pawnee mythology
•Salish mythology
•Seneca mythology
•Tsimshian mythology
•Ute mythology
•Winnebago mythology
•Zuni mythology
•Northern indigenous religions
•Aleut mythology
•Evenk mythology
•Inuit mythology
•Yukaghir mythology
•Oceanic religions
•Australian Aboriginal mythology
•Cargo cults (Jon Frum, etc.)
•Dievturiba
•Hawaiian religion
•Micronesian mythology
•Maori mythology
•Modekngei (Republic of Palau)
•Nauruan indigenous religion
•Polynesian mythology
•Tuvaluan mythology
See also: Animism, Goddess Worship, Paganism, Shamanism


Religions and spiritual movements of modern origin
•ACIM (A Course In Miracles)
•Eclectic unification religions
•Cao Dai
•Arès Pilgrim Movement
•Law of One
•Matrixism: The path of the One
•Unitarian Universalism
•Universal Life Church
•THC Ministry
•Theosophy
•Falun Dafa (Falun Gong)
•Humanism
•Secular Humanism
•Spiritual Humanism
•New Humanism
•Left Hand Path religions
•Neopaganism (some forms)
•Satanism
•Temple of Set
•Thelema
•Neopaganism
•Finnish neopaganism
•Neo-druidism
•Judeo-Paganism
•Wicca
•Alexandrian Wicca
•Dianic Wicca
•Gardnerian Wicca
•Seax-Wica
•Faery Wicca
•Feri Tradition
•Process Church of the Final Judgement
•Raelism
•Scientology
•Spiritualism
•Spiritism
•Science Grounded Religion
•Dev Samaj
•Summum

Nonsectarian and trans-sectarian religious movements and practices

Esotericism
•Alchemy
•Freemasonry
•Gnosticism
•Kabbalah
•Occultism
•Rosicrucian
•Ancient Mystical Order Rosae Crucis
•Confraternity of the Rose Cross

Mysticism
•Christian mysticism
•Gnosticism
•Hindu mysticism
•Tantra
•Tantric yoga
•Martinism
•Meditation
•Kabbalah
•Spirituality
•Sufism (Islamic mysticism)
•Theosophy

Magic (religion)
•Astrology
•Divination
•Prophecy
•Exorcism
•Faith healing
•Feng Shui
•Magick
•Chaos magick
•Enochian magick
•Grimoire magick
•Goetic magick
•Miracles
•Seid (shamanic magic)
•Witchcraft

Ritualism
•Prayer
•Sacrifice
•Animal sacrifice
•Human sacrifice
•Worship

Beliefs that are not religions
•Agnosticism
•Atheism
•Deism
•Panentheism
•Pantheism
•Theism

Joke religions
•Bokononism
•Brianism
•Church of Beavis Christ
•Church of Dolcett
•Church of Emacs
•Church of Jesus Christ Elvis
•Church of the SubGenius (The cult of J R "Bob" Dobbs)
•Discordianism
•The Golden Molsonites
•The First Church of the Last Laugh
•The Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster
•Kibology
•Roshambo
•Shatnerology
•Tapism
•Invisible pink unicorn

Fictional religions
•The religions of the Cthulhu Mythos
•Jedi (Star Wars)
•The Force (Star Wars)
•Klingon religion (Star Trek)
•Robotology (Futurama)

[Syrinx]

15. no

[sinkingfeeling]

52. Where is the FSM on your list?

[annabanana]

81. WA-A-AY down the list:

Joke religions
•Bokononism
•Brianism
•Church of Beavis Christ
•Church of Dolcett
•Church of Emacs
•Church of Jesus Christ Elvis
•Church of the SubGenius (The cult of J R "Bob" Dobbs)
•Discordianism
•The Golden Molsonites
•The First Church of the Last Laugh
•The Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster
•Kibology
•Roshambo
•Shatnerology
•Tapism
•Invisible pink unicorn

[OneGrassRoot]

13. Great point.

:hi:

I think many progressives are defending this because it's more about racism and bigotry than religious freedom, but this is a great point.

:thumbsup:

[Syrinx]

16. thanks!

And Wish-a-doo is great. I just heard about it the other day!

:hi:

[OneGrassRoot]

19. Thank YOU!

;)

:hi:

[seabeyond]

20. supporting their right to be in htis country at peace and building center is not a fan of the

religion.

two different animals.

[customerserviceguy]

23. Well said

It continually puzzles me how progressives who are rightly scornful of the excesses of fundie Christianity seem to "understand" a religion that is at least as oppressive.

[saltpoint]

24. Most of us who aren't Muslims now aren't going to join

up any time soon.

But the Constitution protects their right to build a community center or read the Koran, just as it permits followers of other traditions to read their sacred texts or assemble to worship, etc.

I don't think there's an argument that can be made that Terry Jones and his ilk in Gainesville are anything other than self-promotional bigots.

[stray cat]

25. Sometimes bigotry isn't called bigotry if you are the one doing it

Then it seems to hide behind self-righteousness. The left and right sometimes appears identical except foe their targets of hate diifering

[CBGLuthier]

26. Ireland made slaves of some of their young women

Holding Hands? Hyperbole much?

[brooklynite]

28. The point is not that one faith is better than the other...

It's that most modern society's (even the US) have learned to set aside religious orthodoxy of in the last Century or so (remember -- 400 years ago we were burning witches). Muslims are largely settled in nations with far less developmental history that would allow a similar wave of secularism (Turkey would be the major exception).

[annabanana]

29. +1 . . . .n/t

[pecwae]

31. Recced thoroughly.

I'm shocked to see this post and applaud you for doing it.

"I endorse religious tolerance. But get a grip. Islam is not a friend of a free society. And it befuddles me when I see Christian-hating message-board members post earnest defenses of something they know so little of." Befuddled would describe me in terms of this phenomenon. There's a quite a disconnect.

[Little Star]

36. +1

[donheld]

80. Unrecced Thoroughly

Like the others are really any better.

[mmonk]

32. Allowing one religion to deny another religion the rights it enjoys

under the 1st amendment is the issue. It's not about liking either one. And Muslims haven't been calling for restictions here of other religions.

[Lightning Count]

34. How are 1st amendment rights being denied? nt

[mmonk]

39. Not yet.

However, intolerance is the road traveled to get there. In the case of Nazi Germany, everyone seems to forget the ending wasn't the start.

[Lightning Count]

40. Unfortunately, or fortunately, we tolerate intolerance here.

:)

[mmonk]

44. True, but the danger lies in when politicians back that intolerance

or encourage it. There is where it becomes not just intolerance, but institutionalized intolerance.

[Lightning Count]

45. What politicians have backed this?

And you could have a politician backing the KKK. That is within their rights in this country.

[mmonk]

46. Obviously you have no intent of trying to understand what I'm trying

to say. The atmosphere is charged with the bruhaha over the Islamic center in NYC and Republican party rhetoric, the scores of things such as the DVD that appeared in our newspapers across the nation sometime back which was created by prominent neoconservatives, etc.. Sorry you missed all that.

[Lightning Count]

47. I am addressing the burning of the Korans. nt

[mmonk]

50. I am too. Do you think this would be happening right now

if prominent Republican party figures had not made the Islamic Center as well as other rhetoric a national issue? You won't see them attending a book burning yet but that doesn't mean the atmosphere they have pushed as we approach the anniversary of 9/11 {as well as the "Obama could be a Muslim or supports radical Islam memes they have created). There is always a danger when political forces create the atmosphere.

[Lightning Count]

55. That is mere inference though.

You could argue that if 9/11 had not happened than the book burning would not happen. As long as they are not stealing the Korans, then I have zero problems with it. If I want to grill my steaks using copies of the King James Bible than I should have that right as well. Maybe an idea for my next bbq.

[mmonk]

57. I'm not saying they don't have the right to burn books.

What I am saying is that the political propaganda that encourages it is dangerous when the party in question has access to power.

[SwampG8r]

74. as a cook

please dont
the bindings ink and paper itself could contain unhealthy chemicals
if you are doing this i would recommend burning the books down to create a nice hot core and then stack wood or coals on that
i am a christian btw and i am not offended by your choice of bbq kindleing

[Lightning Count]

77. Wow.

Thanks. That would be bad!

[SwampG8r]

79. i think it might be equal to

cooking over one of those fake logs they sell
the wax ones i cant remember what they are called

[Little Star]

35. I have yet to hear anyone say they don't have the right to

religious freedom and the right to build the park51 mosque. It is just a bad idea.

[SwampG8r]

73. yet

[newfie11]

37. This is a free country

How many Muslims do you know personally? Maybe talking to some and getting to know them would help.

As you said there are fanatics in all religions and unfortunately that is what people hear about.

[ismnotwasm]

38. All religions are about the same.

How they are culturally expressed given what's going on at any point in history differs. Western thought it's development to our great misogynist Christian writers interested in thought control and prior to that, our great misogynist Greek philosophers. Which should tell us something about ourselves but it usually doesn't. What we have in America, is distributed wealth. Not well distributed, but much better than, say, Saudi Arabia. Given enough social frustration, Christianity isn't any better than Islam. It's potential is just as repressive, just as deadly.

I disagree with the thought that repuke don't want to overturn Roe. I never get THAT complacent.

Christianity, Islam and Judaism all share the same roots. They are ALL based on hatred, and fear of, women. The first step for control in any society is to control what women do, and what women are.

On the other hand, what my Muslims friends tell me is that Americans have very little understanding of Islam, that the effort to stop mosques from being built is nothing new. They tell me that fanatical Islams are full of shit and do not represent the majority of Muslims. When you have a religious state, you get what you get.

[AngryAmish]

42. The Vatican

1 country dominated by a christian theocracy. Just saying.

[sinkingfeeling]

51. Stop painting with a big brush. Fundamental Islam is repressive, but so would be fundamental

Christianity, if it took root in any country. There are millions of oppressed Iranians who oppose the regimen they live under. There are some sects in America where young girls are raped, where they are severely beaten if they were to make eye contact with a boy, where they are told what to wear, and cannot leave a compound without a male escort. So you need to prove your statement that Islam is the most repressive 'faith' on Earth.

[Lightning Count]

56. There are sects that require you wear black Nikes.

What of it?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heaven's_Gate_(religious_group)

You seem to be conflating small sects that operate outside the mainstream and law with large theocracies.

[sinkingfeeling]

62. And you think all Islam is the same? What do you image a 'christian theocracy' would be like?

[Lightning Count]

63. All of Islam? No. Large sections. Yes.

The Vatican gives us a good example of a modern day Christian theocracy.

[sinkingfeeling]

65. Oh joy! No women in positions of authority, children used as sexual toys, massive accumulations of

wealth for the 'leaders' while the common people live in poverty, requirements to 'confess', modern-day 'shunning' or excommunication of 'sinners', and women commanded to accept every pregnancy and to 'submit' to their husbands.

You know I think that would be a horrible existence as well.

[Lightning Count]

68. Who said it was a good thing?

No stoning, lashes, or crucifixions though so I guess that is a plus.

[kwassa]

66. There are many Muslim countries, but none are theocracies

as far as I know.

the·oc·ra·cy   /θiˈɒkrəsi/ Show Spelled Show IPA
–noun,plural-cies.
1.a form of government in which god or a deity is recognized as the supreme civil ruler, the God's or deity's laws being interpreted by the ecclesiastical authorities.
2.a system of government by priests claiming a divine commission.
3.a commonwealth or state under such a form or system of government.
Use theocracy in a Sentence
See images of theocracy
Search theocracy on the Web

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/theocracy

[Lightning Count]

69. I suppose that having a state with an official state religion is as close as we get.

Or Iran which is a "theocratic republic."

[closeupready]

54. Your beliefs amount to bigotry.

Unrecced.

[Douglas Carpenter]

59. indeed... About like saying I'm all for equal rights for African-Americans, but let's face it.......

Or I'm against anti-Semitism but.........

Or I believe in equal rights for gays, even equal marriage rights, but.........

[USArmyParatrooper]

87. Not at all

Saying Islam has a problem with oppressive extremism is no more bigoted than saying Catholicism has a problem with sexual predators and cover-ups surrounding them.

Go live in one of several countries ran by Islamic theocracies for a while. Even in relatively moderate Islamic countries like Iraq honor killings are a regular, accepted practice.

What I am not for is alienating and broad brushing all Muslims, but that doesn't mean Islam doesn't have a serious issues to deal with overall. This is the real world, not some perfectly balanced ying yang universe.

[Douglas Carpenter]

58. this is not just the issue of one crazy church burning the Koran or one hate campaign against one

one community center being built in lower Manhattan.

Right now there is a nationwide campaign of anti-Muslim hysteria being whooped up by right-wing politicians, the crazy wing of fundamentalist Christianity and the likes of Newsmax and Fox News. There is a grave danger of this hysteria becoming - if it has not already - completely mainstream discourse in American society. There are campaigns against mosques all across America right now.

This hysteria has dangerous ramifications, not only for the American-Muslim community but for the entirety of society and the direction it is going. The 20th Century has surely shown that hate campaigns are not controllable and can and do lead society down extremely self-destructive paths.

This hysteria has even more dangerous ramifications for American foreign policy.

There are right-wing religious crazies in America who now pretty much dominate the Republican Party and there are the neoconservatives who are bent on promoting a permanent American war in the Middle East and I believe they must be stopped or America and the whole world will experience a catastrophe beyond imagination. The religious crazies believe they must help facilitate the battle of Armageddon in order to usher in the second coming of Christ. This is not a small marginal group of kooks. This is a group who are to a large degree now calling the shots in the Republican Party while their allies the neoconservatives work out the details.

Opposing this hysteria, denouncing it firmly and not allowing this hysteria to become mainstream discourse is one of the most important stands anyone can take - The consequences of anti-Muslim hysteria growing and becoming even more mainstream are just too dire.

[Iggo]

60. I tolerate Christianity because I support the Constitution.

I'll shit on anyone, Christian or otherwise, who does not uphold the separation of church and state and the freedom of religion.

So there.

[BurtWorm]

67. Are people really saying Islam is a friend of free society?

I think the main principle being argued for here is not "religious tolerance" per se, but First Amendment protections. I think (maybe I should speak only for myself) that the Islamic Center should be built because I oppose the idea that it shouldn't be built, not because I think Islam needs to be promoted. I think what needs to be promoted is the American value of pluralism as strength.

[closeupready]

76. Because THE SAME ASSHOLES WHO ATTACK ISLAM HAVE ATTACKED US.

That's why we defend muslims. They are the same assholes who tormented we who are gay when we were children, or who teach that wives must submit to their husband's, or who burn books.

So when they go on the attack against an ethnic group, you can bet dollars to doughnuts that YUP, IT'S BIGOTRY. Looks like bigotry, smells like bigotry, walks and quacks just like bigotry. :mad:

[Codeine]

88. Islam is not an "ethnic group."

Just sayin.

[Capitalocracy]

82. When I defend "Muslims", I'm defending freedom of AND FROM religion.

Simple as that. I'm not a fan of either religion either.

[Skip Intro]

83. +1 n/t

[Matariki]

84. This is a very ignorant post. It's sad really.

I am friends with some very moderate and progressive Muslims, and they are in no way intolerant of gays or repressive toward women. They are very much like typical moderate Christians who you meet every day and don't even think twice about what their religion might be because they're not fundies shoving it in everyone's face.

Your broad brush painting of Islam is ignorant. It's like saying all Christians are like that fool in Florida.

[opiate69]

85. As an avowed atheist...

lately I find myself in the seemingly incongruous position of defending Islam.. and while it has caused me no small amount of introspection trying to reconcile my opinion of all religion in general with my apparent desire to defend Islam from time to time, I come to the realization that ultimately there is a difference between legitimate criticism, and the kind of blind, mindless bigotry and xenophobia which rears it's ugly head through fuck-wits like Terry Jones.

[Iggo]

86. delete