The "Rev" Terry Jones is no real Christian

[MrScorpio]

This Koran burning of his planned for Friday is about as "Christian" as a bunch of white robed klansmen burning a cross.

Jones obviously has too much hate in his mind, body and soul to be a genuine follower of Christ's teachings.

[Hubert Flottz]

1. No he's a real asshole...

And so is his intolerant counterpart on the other side of the world.

A fundie is a fundie!

[Stuart G]

4. Whatever is beyond an asshole...nt

[saltpoint]

2. Agree. I heard some Christians follow a book, or I guess

a group of books, and a few of the books tell about the ministry of Jesus.

Maybe Pastor Jones could, you know, get a copy down at the library or something, and read it. He could ask the librarian which book, and I bet they'd be able to help him out.

[msanthrope]

9. He might have read the part where some dude named Jesus cursed a tree

that pissed him off--and then killed it. Or the part where he assaulted the moneychangers.

And don't get me started on the smiting that his father liked to do...

[saltpoint]

13. Yep. Ol' Pastor Jones might have a reading comprehension

problem.

That, along with Psychotic Disorder, NOS.

[msanthrope]

3. The "No True Scotsman" fallacy doesn't make Terry Jones not a Christian.

When you believe in a religion that allows self-proclamation, and frankly, allows for violence and denial of other religions, then this is what you get.

Terry Jones is a Christian because he says he is so.

That you may not like his actions is another matter, altogether.

[Fumesucker]

6. +1

[piratefish08]

7. agreed. +1

[Common Sense Party]

8. By their fruits ye shall know them.

Who said that again?

Pastor Jones' "fruits" (actions) demonstrate he's no follower of Christ.

[msanthrope]

12. The Christ that killed a tree that pissed him off? Assaulted people?

The Christian god is one that likes smiting and killing and violence.

Arguably, Terry Jones IS following Christ.

[Common Sense Party]

15. The Christ that forgave the men who were nailing him to a tree.

[msanthrope]

23. And who killed the children of Job on a bet.

No wonder Mr. Jones is confused. The Christian god is a confusing guy.

[piratefish08]

18. John 1:12 - says all they have to do is receive and believe to be a Christian

it says nothing about emulating.

the rulebook says all the hateful shit can be forgiven, right?

[Common Sense Party]

20. I guess we'll just throw out all the commandments and imperatives

about behaving a certain way that are strewn around the rest of the book.

Sure. Pick and choose whatever suits your agenda.

[piratefish08]

29. religions have been cherry picking their beliefs to suit their agenda for

centuries.

the fact remains that if Jones accepts Jesus, he is a Christian. and if he prays for forgiveness he gets a ticket to heaven.


i didn't make the rules.

[EnlightenedOne]

71. Unless of course those aren't the facts

Maybe it really doesn't matter whether you accept Jesus or not, or if you pray for forgiveness or not. Maybe its really only the muslims who make it to heaven.

[trotsky]

81. "Pick and choose whatever suits your agenda."

Why not? That's exactly what you do, too.

[Common Sense Party]

84. Hardly. But thanks for playing.

[BurtWorm]

92. You read Jesus's words exactly as they should be read, I take it.

So why don't you pass your wisdom along to the Rev. Terry Jones? So simple, really, isn't it?

[trotsky]

95. Denial ain't just a river in Egypt.

All Christians pick & choose. Even you.

[BurtWorm]

77. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

:shrug:

[Common Sense Party]

79. And...?

[BurtWorm]

80. You can cherry pick any ideology you want out of the bible.

Some Christians hear jesus telling them loud and clear to burn korans. It's right there in the gospels.

[MrScorpio]

25. You have a point...

But I don't particularly agree with it.

Because, we've been dealing with "Christian" charlatans for far too long in this country. The First Amendment protects their absolute right to corrupt fundamental Christian principles in order to showboat and make a crooked buck.

However yesterday, we witnessed that Inter-Faith Press conference, when all of the Christian speakers clearly indicated that Jones, in no way, represented the true face of the faith.

Yes, Jones may have every right call himself a Scotsman, but he's suspiciously lacking a proper brogue and kilt.

[msanthrope]

38. Well, you and I disagree on what is the "true face of the faith."

You seem to cherry-pick the good, and take no responsibility for the rest.

While you see corruption of "fundamental Chrisitian principles," I see that fundamental Christian principles are often corrupt.

[MrScorpio]

50. Well, I understand it that that's how you see it from your point of view

Which is one taken from outside of the faith's perspective.

But, I was moved quite deeply yesterday when speakers of Jewish, Muslim and Christian faiths stated, quite clearly and quite firmly, that Jones' actions is not representative of the true nature of any of their faiths.

Of course, conscientious people such as yourself, have every right to criticize religiously based patriarchal organizations for the atrocities that they've committed in the names of their particular faiths. There's no disagreement that such a history exists.

But the allowed right for Jones to call himself a Christian is not endorsed by those others who have spent their own lifetimes trying to adhere to what their faith has taught what them to do and why they must do it. They are looking at his actions... Actions which run contrary to those teachings.

From my perspective, being a Christian does not automatically make one wrong, in spite of the wrongs committed by its hierarchy. Just because I don't follow a particular faith, and I'm not a Christian by the way, it doesn't mean that I must condemn it instead.

However, it's quite clear to me that Jones is exercising his First Amendment right to practice false Christianity, he's been called on it and he doesn't even care. He's going to proceed with his charlatanism.

[wookie72]

27. Funnily enough, I've heard that argument used by atheists

Both in defense against being compared with Stalin or MAo ("those were actually religions") and, in the case of Hitchens, to dismiss the good works of someone like MLK ("he didn't really believe all that").

[Fumesucker]

33. Amazing, atheists are actually fallible human beings..

Hoocoodanode?

[msanthrope]

40. Wait, we aren't omnipotent? n/t

[msanthrope]

44. Stalin, Mao...wait....YOU FORGOT HITLER!!!!

Seriously, you forgot Hitler.

I can't tell you what a "true atheist" does. I wouldn't presume.

[wookie72]

52. YOu wouldn't presume

But Harris and Hitchens sure do.

[rexcat]

86. I find it tasteless to compare atheist in the US to...

Stalin, Mao Zedong or Hitler or any other mass murder. If fact it show just how bigoted some religious people in the US are when it comes to atheists. To coin an oft said phrase - I am not "saying" you are but lighten up!

[SargeUNN]

59. by the defination I learned of Christian, HE ISN'T

Christian means one who follows the teaching of Jesus and has the ambitious to be like Jesus. Looking at the teaching of Jesus this guy doesn't measure up at all.

[CanonRay]

5. He's prayin on it, doncha know

So that means he's justified in whatever he wants to do. How fucking convenient.

[hlthe2b]

10. Yes... which makes it infinitely appalling that some DUers suggest

bible burnings in retaliation....

Is intolerance a core value of atheism? :eyes:

[Warpy]

17. Don't be silly

Such sentiments are just the metaphoric equivalent of a very human, although childish, need to hit an attacker back.

Personally, I'd prefer he be surrounded by people pointing at him and chanting "SHAME!" He's a publicity hound, and I doubt that's the kind of publicity he's looking for. It would, however, be just the kind of publicity that would help us in the Muslim world.

[hlthe2b]

21. Belittling him and yelling shame is exactly what is called for...

Suggesting burning bibles reinforces his ignorance and suggests quite a bit of "our own"...

That you would defend those who would advance such ignorance, dismays me, Warpy.

[jberryhill]

31. Defending and understanding are two different things

Or did "a very human, although childish, need" just fly right past you?

[hlthe2b]

37. I expressed an opinion..

the retort to me was that I was "silly." You respond with a likewise belittling post. What part of that escapes you? :shrug:

[jberryhill]

46. I'm not belittling you...

Your opinion seems to be that you are SHOCKED that people express understandable and childish human reactions to things, if I am reading you correctly.

Warpy was not defending them, and I was responding to your incorrect suggestion that it was a defense.

I know why my dog trashed my house yesterday in search of chicken bones in the trash. I'm not thrilled that she did it.

[hlthe2b]

47. re:

thank you for taking time to clarify.

[Warpy]

32. Perhaps you need to read my post again

and look up the word "childish."

[hlthe2b]

35. ...

When you start off your retort to me by calling me "silly?" Really? It appears that it is me you are intent on belittling. :shrug:

[jberryhill]

48. I hate to be pedantic

But "Don't be silly" is an encouragement not to be silly, and not an assertion that you are.

[hlthe2b]

49. re:

No, it was meant to undermine the seriousness of my deeply held belief that Progressives need to be consistent in their tolerance, whether it be related to differences in race, ethnicity, gender, age, sexual orientation OR the presence or absence of religious beliefs.

I am agnostic. Yet, my tolerance extends to those who hold sincerely held religious beliefs with which I do not really agree. Ditto those who are convinced towards atheism. When the subject line of posts like this ("Let's burn the bible" http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x502908) end up at the top of every google search-- linked to what should be one of the leading progressive sites, (DU) I think it is time to take a step back. Those who would fight religious intolerance with religious intolerance are not merely "childish"... and saying so is NOT "silly."

[msanthrope]

19. Intolerance of stupidity, yes. n/t

[hlthe2b]

24. You don't fight stupidity with stupidity.

and those who think you fight intolerance with more intolerance are just that, stupid.

[msanthrope]

30. Oh, I don't support burning bibles in retaliation, but intolerance

of this sort of nonsense is exactly what's called for.

[hlthe2b]

39. Intolerance of this cretin is called for...

That is not a point of difference. My entire point was that burning bibles is not the way. Yet, you seemed to be defending those who would propose that. I am glad to see that you are not.

[MrScorpio]

26. I'm not one of them

That's where I stand

[saltpoint]

28. I think it's Pastor Jones who would fail to make the

connection between his own spiteful, self-promotional decision to burn Korans and others' decision, were it to materialize, to burn the book Jones purports to honor.

He is being called out on his bigotry, no matter the specific motivation.

I think he wants to generate publicity to fatten his purse.

[WolverineDG]

62. From what I've seen on DU, yes nt

[BurtWorm]

89. What are you suggesting atheists tolerate?

[Warpy]

11. He's a classic sociopath, conman and cult leader

He was thrown out of Germany for running a cult and religious scam.

This is likely a desperate attempt to attract bigots and swell his congregation beyond the 50 or so members it has dwindled to.

Sadly, it will probably work.

[MrScorpio]

14. He's an attention whore, for sure

I imagine that he has something bigger planned once the eventual media anti-climax occurs.

[Iwillnevergiveup]

16. John Fugelsang on Stephanie Miller this morning

mentioned his mother-in-law who lives in Gainesville, called him and mentioned there was a grand total of 38 parisoners at Dove Church last Sunday. So this must be a ginormous publicity/fund-raiser event.

[Dappleganger]

22. He's a man behind on his mortgage payments...

and his banking on the gullible tea baggers to send him money to support his "cause." BTW, their church may be big on the outside but not that many people go there anymore.

[PavePusher]

34. So, I wonder what radical Islamists do to Bibles in the M.E.?

It's been reported that the people who distribute them are often put to death. I presume they do something severe to the actual books too.....

[MrScorpio]

41. This is the funny thing: He's doing this to protest 9/11...

Which happened because a bunch of so-called Muslims decided to attack The Great Satan based on their corrupted interpretations of the teachings of Mohammed.

Both Jones and the 9/11 terrorists are all at opposite ends of the same boat.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

45. Oh, that I had a torpedo...(nt)

[Fumesucker]

42. Three rights make a left..

But two wrongs do not make a right..

[PavePusher]

53. And I agree with you.

I don't condone any side here, just pointing out the irony and hypocracy.


http://www.crosswalk.com/news/religiontoday/11636135 /

http://www.onenewsnow.com/Missions/Default.aspx?id=5281...

http://www.topix.net/forum/religion/islam/TS5GV1EH7LUB2...

http://atheism.about.com/b/2008/06/04/religious-extremi...

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=f99_1208386409

http://www.speroforum.com/a/17283/Muslims-burn-Bible-in...

[blondeatlast]

68. Fine, objective links you have there...

Decidedly not!

[political_Dem]

36. I just wonder whether people simply respect one another in this day and age.

Ever since RW radio took over the minds of the sheep in this country, the ability to simply respect people has hit an all time low. The saddest thing about this situation is that the minister ( I loosely call him that) doesn't realize the tremendous negative impact his actions will cause in this nation and around the world.

Above all else, this action is mainly about narcissism and religious supremacy.

It is because of this man's actions why the rest of the world thinks we're idiots. :(

[Name removed]

43. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MrScorpio]

51. I sympathize with your outrage

But I disagree with those methods.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

56. So do I, at the end of the day....

On the other hand, if it happens, I'm breaking out the weenies and marshmallows.

[PavePusher]

54. I can only wonder what heights of rage you go to when actual evil occurs.

Like murder in the name of religion, or other injustice that actually harms people.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

55. What a clever post....

I'm sure that the troops in Afghanistan who will be facing intensified sniper fire will find your post witty in a Noel-Fucking-Coward sort of way.

I'm sure the last thoughts of the poor schlub who was standing too close to that car bomb outside the U.S. Embassy in Indonesia will be, "Thank God there are still urbane and sophisticated people in this world with a puckish sense of irony."

[PavePusher]

63. Just for your edification...

I sometimes am one of those troops. Been shot at.

Are you justifying the use of terrorism because of some burned books? If Islam is that unstable, maybe some of the Repubs are right.

Just sayin'.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

64. Just for your edification....

I'm a Lutheran, and my post is in disgust at ANYONE who would do something that is a) so patently offensive and b) sure to undermine the safety of troops and civilians worldwide.

If the good Rev. want to call attention to himself and his cause, I would suggest that he use the Thích Quảng Đức approach: Douse himself in gasoline and light a fucking match.

[PavePusher]

66. While I fully agree with your suggestion...

My support for the First Amendment is not a sometimes-thing. It is constant, even when I object to both the method and the message.

LLiberty, unfortunately, is like that... you ain't a'gonna like it all the time, but the alternatives are worse.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

70. I know...

And now that I'm in a less-incensed mood, I agree with you.

Still. Can't we start just a little fire?

Maybe this has nothing to do with free speech and more to do with my pyromaniacal tendencies.

[PavePusher]

72. Heck, I'll bring a can of petrol...

what happens to it while I'm off getting a beer is out of my control. :evilgrin:

My apologies also, I just see this whole thing as a molehills-to-mountains transformation and am kind of underwhelmed by the whole thing. Only idiots (on all sides) burn books. Real talent would do a scathing critic, with footnotes, pointing out all the errors in translation, history, grammer and logic. And what do I use for paper in my outhouse?

[krabigirl]

57. Well, what about the christians who burned witches back in the day?

Christianity, like many other religions, does most certainly have a history of doing things like this. No, it is not like Christ at all, so this is why non-batshit Christians should speak up more,like you are doing.

[MrScorpio]

60. So true, the "back in the day" Christians had it wrong, with respect to "witches"

Which is exactly why your point is spot on, for when reason and sanity is forced to take hold, it sheds a light on how horrible those past atrocities actually were.

[SidDithers]

58. Sure he is...

he's just an asshole Christian.

Sid

[thereismore]

61. I don't even know what "Christian" means anymore. Did Christians ever get it right? nt

[missheidi]

65. What happened to the Christian "love for everyone?"

I guess this dipstick missed that sermon. That's what I was always taught; not to burn the Quran, and put numerous lives at risk doing it.

[PavePusher]

73. There are plenty of them...

they just aren't the ones jumping up and down while foaming at the mouth and shrieking.

[phasma ex machina]

93. The Christian Spirit *is* love, it's that simple.

Lev 19:18b you shall love your neighbor as yourself

Matt 5:44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you.

My favorite biblical verses (partially because a character named Cereal Killer says verse 11 in the movie "Hackers").

1 Corinthians 13
Love
1 If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing.

4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. 12 Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

O8) :loveya: :hug: :grouphug:

[Hannah Bell]

67. i think he's an intelligence operative, myself.

[blondeatlast]

69. Interesting thought.

Hmmm....

[fascisthunter]

75. you could be right

[WinkyDink]

99. If he dies in odd circumstances, I might consider this.

[fascisthunter]

74. Terry is a Sociopath hiding behind religion

[spanone]

76. he's a shrewd politician...i hope to fuck he pays taxes.

how else can you explain getting a 50 member congregation of an ignorant church worldwide press coverage..either that or our media is a bunch of stupid fucks

[Mimosa]

98. Our media ARE a bunch of stupid fucks

This wasn't news, it wasn't worth reporting. Unless they wanted to rile up the Muslim world.

[Blue_In_AK]

78. Here's some new information I learned this morning

about this whackjob.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,716409,00.html

US fundamentalist pastor Terry Jones, who wants to burn copies of the Koran on Sept. 11, ran a church in the western German city of Cologne until last year when members of the congregation expelled him. Former members have spoken of his hate-filled sermons and insistence on "blind obedience."

<snip>

In the United States, Jones has already attracted attention on several occasions as an Islamophobic provocateur. What is less well known is that the pastor led a charismatic evangelical church, the Christian Community of Cologne, in the western German city up until 2009. Last year, however, the members of the congregation kicked founder Jones out, because of his radicalism. One of the church's current leaders, Stephan Baar, also told the German news agency DPA that there had been suspicions of financial irregularities in the church surrounding Jones.

A "climate of fear and control" had previously prevailed in the congregation, says one former member of the church who does not want to be named. Instead of free expression, "blind obedience" was demanded, he says.

<snip>

Former church members are still undergoing therapy as a result of "spiritual abuse," Schäfer said. According to Schäfer, Jones urged church members to beat their children with a rod and also taught "a distinctive demonology" and conducted brainwashing.

<snip>

Interesting reading. I wonder if he's any relation of old Jim Jones?? Certainly cut from the same cloth, it would appear.

[Touchdown]

82. Yes he is.

He believes in Jesus Christ. That's all that is required.

[MrScorpio]

83. Muslims believe in the Jewish prophets...

Does that makes them Jewish?

[Touchdown]

85. No

If you believe in Jesus Christ as your savior, then you inherit the kingdom of God.

Declaration is all that is required to be a Christian. It's a bit of work become Jewish.

[WinkyDink]

100. I think that's only the post-Luther Protestant belief, not the Roman Catholic one.

[Touchdown]

106. The Koran burner isn't a catholic.

My point still stands

[lonestarnot]

87. He certainly has an ugly mustache and his actions demonstrate that he doesn't appear to have a

relationship with the Prince of Peace.

[Codeine]

88. He's a real Christian alright.

Y'all just don't want to admit that's the kind of hate your silly-ass Skydaddy nonsense breeds.

[spanone]

90. he's a nut case and the media should treat him as such...it's fuggin' ridiculous

[WinkyDink]

101. Ain't that the truth! It's unbelievable, the publicity!

[tanyev]

103. There's the real problem, isn't it?

Our "liberal media" virtually ignores people that speak calm, rational truth and falls all over themselves to get an endless parade of nut cases in front of the camera, legitimizing them in the process. The right to have freedom of speech does not include the right to be gifted with a national platform.

[JI7]

91. He Certainly IS a real Christian just like the 9/11 Terrorists were Muslims

their religion doesn't mean they are good or bad. there are good and evil people within the same religions.

[WinkyDink]

102. Well, actually, you don't KNOW either case.

[MrScorpio]

94. Even as a non-believer, this event moved me deeply

We shouldn't lose sight of the fact that Jones is using his so-called faith as a smoke screen for his own hatred...

As the the 9/11 terrorists used their so-called faith as a smoke screen for their own hatred...

And as those who are opposed to the Muslim community center.


This video, however, is an example of real faith, I hope that everyone will spare some precious time to watch it:


http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program/295331-1

[Mimosa]

96. Unfortunately people in other countries don't know this isn't a 'real church'

The media makes a small outft of wackjobs in Florida sound as if they were a real church with a thousand or more members.

[WinkyDink]

97. He joins a very crowded club. I believe its membership includes a Bush or two.

[joshcryer]

104. His behavior is not dramatically different from the behavior of past Christians.

I see nothing that distinguishes him from those Christians and the Christian ideal you are attempting to perpetuate.

[old mark]

105. Sure he is - this is what "real" christians DO....hate and destroy and kill others for jesus.

Read history.

mark