It all happens on the internet.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

I think the Obama Administration is a disaster and the leaderless Democratic Party an ongoing tragedy. That's what I think. If I were not a life-long liberal that wouldn’t worry me much one way or another, but it does. It tears me up, every day.

As a genuine DU old-timer (8 years, one name change) I don’t much care about people calling me a troll because I am sharply critical of economic and political decisions. It’s internet drive-by… they are just showing they don’t know who they’re addressing.

Are some people who criticize the President in the performance of his office RW trolls?

Yes. Of course. Why not? It's an obvious sort of behavior. If something fucked up can exist on the internet it will exist on the internet.

Are some of the most strident “supporters” RW trolls? Of course. The recreational troll often seeks to fit in. Many DUers had long careers elsewhere amusing themselves with how comically over-the-top their Bush praise could be, seeing whether their taunt-bait had any limits of credulity.

That stuff happens on the internet too.

It all happens on the internet.

The pertinent question we face at Democratic Underground, as a community, is whether any group, from any perspective, shall demoralize and diminish the community with RW behaviors in an ostensible LW cause.

We, Democrats, are presumed to have no use for McCarthyism because it is incompatible with the core principles of liberal democracy, not because Joe McCarthy happened to be a Republican.

And we did not despise McCarthism because communism wasn't a menace. It was. And there really were some soviet agents in US government. It's true.

We despised it partially because it was a method of promoting RW values by noting the similarities of Democratic attitudes and things communists believed, with the implication that anyone left of center--minimum-wage supporters, civil rights folks and such--warranted scrutiny.

And we also despised it because liberal democracy cannot have, as a priority, broad suspicion of shadow class of "enemy." The system cannot work that way. (As the mysterious zeitgeist nexus between 9/11 and invading Iraq demonstrated amply.)

McCarthyism is a greater bar to civil, open discussion than ten boat-loads of trolls.

[NJmaverick]

1. I think you have a ridiculous distorted view of the Dems and the President

and have completely discounted their historical list of accomplishments. Sadly the more people that do that, the better the GOP will do in Nov.

[AtomicKitten]

11. +1

[BeFree]

2. Eh?

"I think the Obama Administration is a disaster and the leaderless Democratic Party an ongoing tragedy"

I should have stopped reading right there.

Why? Because the lack of any recognition of our modern political reality is the only way someone can actually think that.

Stick around and listen, you may actually change your mind if you do?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

3. "Obama administration is a disaster"

brain dead unconstructive criticism.

Everything else is filth.

[Beetwasher]

4. Did Someone Call You A Troll?

I'd alert on them if I were you.

Who's practicing McCarthyism? Last I checked you're pretty free to whine, gnash your teeth and complain about Dems and Obama justa bout all you want on this board and as far as I'm concerned you can go right ahead. But when RW trolls mimic your posts in order to disrupt and then get busted for it in a high profile way, don't be surprised when someone points out how alike the two of you sound.

It's ok for you (or others) to point how how alike you think Obama is to "corporatists" (or whatever), why are you immune to such criticism?

[EFerrari]

6. Comparing people who disagree with you to trolls is not criticism

it's a personal attack. Actual criticism is rational.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

7. If a "life long democrat who's very concerned..."

is indistinguishable from a troll, is there an important difference?

If somebody's offended by the comparison, maybe they should work on their own shitty behavior instead of getting mad when the similarities are pointed out.

[Beetwasher]

8. As Opposed To Comparing People Who Disagree With You To "Corporatists"?

Because that's rational criticism, right? So that label is valid criticism, but the other one isn't?

When a paid, RW shill is busted as a troll posing as a disaffected Dem, I'd say comparisons of behaviors can be pretty valid.

It's ok for critics to compare Dems/Obama to "corporatists" or whatever, but it's not ok to compare the critics behavior to bona fide busted RW trolls?

I don't think every Obama critic is troll. In fact, in my opinion most arent. However, there is a subset where it's damn difficult to find any difference between the behavior of a valid critic and that of a troll and that's not my fault. And I'm not saying they are trolls, but at some point, it really makes no difference, they might as well be.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

9. Reading the DU rules would tell that. Try it.

"It's ok for critics to compare Dems/Obama to "corporatists" or whatever, but it's not ok to compare the critics to bona fide busted RW trolls?"

Yes. Correct.

[Beetwasher]

10. Wrong, Because No One Is Calling Anyone A Troll

There's no rule about comparing behaviors.

[EFerrari]

12. At the extreme, that's probably true.

But yesterday and today, "there is a subset" of posters who have been using this troll thing to avoid discussion and to stir up trouble, in itself a kind of disruption that is not helpful to any Democratic project. At some point, people become what they resist badly.

[Beetwasher]

13. Discussing Trolling, Which Is Part And Parcel Of The Internet Is Still Discussing

We can't accuse people of being trolls and I don't recommend we do as I don't believe that's constructive. However, what is wrong with discussing the behavior? Why can't that in itself be a valid topic for discussion? If you don't want to participate in that discussion, don't. But I would think it's a pretty valid topic considering the high profile bust.

[EFerrari]

14. Discussing trolling and spamming DU with innuendo about posters

on the other side of the rift are not the same activity.

[Beetwasher]

15. Who's Spamming DU With Innuendo? I See Lot's Of Innuendo That Anyone

Who is not critical enough of Obama and Dems is some DLC shill. I get that all the time. I recognize it as the contentless sniping that it is and stick to whatever the actual subject is and ignore it.

Pray tell, where is this spamming occurring?

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

16. It is not a rules violation to be a DLC shill

[Beetwasher]

17. Ooops, Misread.

Do you think calling someone a DLC is productive discussion? So, discussing and comparing behavior of posters to trolls is not productive, but calling people you disagree with DLC shills is Okey dokey with you?

Funny that, if that's what you think.

Why would being a "DLC shill" be against the rules on a Democratic Discussion board? Do you think it should be?

Personally, from an ethical standpoint, I believe anyone who works for a political organization and posts on discussion boards as part of their function should probably disclose that.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

20. If you are talking about a literal shill...

If someone was in the employ of anyone to post here that should be disclosed.

I have never called anyone a DLC shill myself... I never refer to the DLC on way or another... but I would certainly agree that it is rude and not in the best interests of discussion.

[Beetwasher]

22. I Completely Agree

Whoda thunk it?

[EFerrari]

18. When you get that, alert on it. Sometimes I think that DU

never went back to pre-primaries civility and that's been a shame for the whole board.

[Beetwasher]

19. Nahh, I Never Alert On Anything, I Really Don't Care Enough To Be Bothered

And frankly, I realize what a huge asshole I am and can take it as good as I give it, so it's no biggie to me, really.

[EFerrari]

21. If you won't do it for you, think of the children.

lol

:)

[Beetwasher]

23. Why Do You Think I Signed Up For The "Bear Patrol"

Someone's gotta protect the kids from bear attacks. ;)

[Morning Dew]

5. It's not an unmitigated disaster and that helps.

Still, I am disappointed in this Administration and really disappointed with the Congress and the Democratic Party.

And, yeah, all that stuff happens on the internet.