Men's Rights and Women's Rights -- The Big Picture

[uncommon]

There are some DUers who seem to think that us few outspoken feminist DUers have an anti-male agenda, or wish to downplay the needs of men and the harms that patriarchy does to men.

There is a significant disconnect here and I think it would benefit all of us to try to put it in focus.

Primers:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Men's_rights">Men's Rights

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women's_rights">Women's Rights

The Men's Rights movement focuses largely on issues of fatherhood and child custody, and the adherents see the courts as favorable environments for women in family matters.

While it is true that our nation's more conservative courts have a tendency at present to default to granting custody to the mother in cases where there are no extenuating circumstances to make a judge decide otherwise, if you take a somewhat broader view of history you will see that this is a very modern phenomenon. Also, more liberal courts follow the Best Interest of the Child standard which does not take the gender of the parents into account, but the ability to parent.

There is a strong focus on false rape allegations and convictions in the MRA (men's rights activist) community. However, the incidence of false rape allegations is statistically quite low. The statistics are, however, inflated in some analyses as all failed rape prosecutions are added in as "false" accusations. This is disingenuous at best.

There is an emphasis on men's mortality versus women's, and on mental health issues - these are certainly valid issues. A good start in leveling the playing field would be to encourage men to see a physician at least once a year as most women do. Women spend a lot of time in doctor's offices in order to deal with their reproductive functions - men do not have this onus upon them, therefore they are less likely to see a doctor regularly. Universal healthcare and a reminder now and then should do wonders. Men suffer from mental health issues just as women do in this country - we live in an unnatural environment and many of us under very high stress - these are issues that could be helped by the above-mentioned doctor's visits as well as by de-stigmatizing mental health issues in society at large.

I'll give MRAs conscription - it's not fair, it's archaic, and it should be done away with entirely or replaced with a genderless system.

Reproductive rights - Take all of the precautions you care to, just as we women do, and hope that they work. After that, the dice will roll. The "male abortion" is already practiced widely, and to society's detriment.

"Men are more frequently the victims of violent crime." Yes, indeed. Violent crime perpetrated by other men.

_____________________________________________________________________________

The Women's Rights movement has focused largely on issues of human rights, suffrage, reproductive health and freedom, employment discrimination, sexual violence. Women have been fighting for hundreds of years for the basic civil rights and human rights enjoyed by (white - in this country at least) men.

While the legal playing field is leveling out in 2010, there are still serious issues of sexual harassment in the workplace, inadequate or prohibitively expensive childcare that prevents women from working and earning a living wage, disproportionate poverty among women and children, access to reproductive healthcare and services, and the still pervasive as ever threat of rape and sexual violence.

Men may have to watch Ray Romano play a bumbling useless dad on tv, and yes this stereotype is insulting and not realistic at all, but women are faced all day, every day, with images of what we must be to succeed - as women, as mothers, as employees, as bosses, as sex objects. These images have replaced much of the cult of domesticity we once endured (although you will note that most of those cleaning product ads still feature women) - instead of the perfect women being a pretty mother with a sparkling floor and dinner on the table at 6, kids in bed at 7:30 all clean with their homework done, she is now an impossibly thin, tall woman with unlikely curves (given her weight). She is impeccably dressed to look sexually available, but not like a whore. She has spent 15 minutes at least applying no less than 5 cosmetics to her skin, her hair has been ironed/curled/colored/etc and coiffed into perfection. She is dressed appropriately for her activity - and appropriately is determined on a dime. Her shoes have heels, which make her walk slower and more painfully.

She gets married and has children, but it doesn't show on her face or her body. She takes care of them and works - making sure not to earn more than her husband so he doesn't feel insecure. She eats as little as possible and has to make sure to never do *anything* that might be viewed as selfish.

After all of this, she must save enough energy for the sex her husband is entitled to - even in 2010, even if she doesn't really want to. There is no similar onus upon men.

The experience of being a man has its pains and pleasures, its hardships and its privileges. The experience of being a women does as well.

The point that feminists are constantly trying to make is that oppression as an institution is different than the pains and hardships of life.

There are fundamental inequalities in our civilization that we should all be working together to destroy. The systems that harm us - patriarchy, capitalism, oligarchy - these are the enemy.

[raccoon]

1. Great post. I think there is another reason that men generally don't

go to the Dr. as much as women; it's not considered macho to go to the Dr. Same as with seeking help for depression, etc.

[uncommon]

2. Agreed --

there is a social stigma issue that really should be addressed.

[Recursion]

15. At the risk of gender essentialism

My experience as a man is that I'm just less cognizant of my body than most women I know are. I think there's kind of a vicious cycle; that's seen as a "male" trait so exaggerating it is "macho", but I really do think in general men are a little more oblivious about what's going on in our bodies.

[lumberjack_jeff]

32. Sure. "I ain't got time to bleed"

But it's not all internal. Never heard anyone's wife say "Oh, he's such a baby when he gets sick"?

[seabeyond]

62. omg. men go around calling men *ussies all the time. you are pointing the finger at women?

come on.... women are more ready to take care of sick hubby than any man is willing to acknowledge illness. and that comes from your gender.

[supernova]

3. your links are weird

When I click on a link, it puts an extra // before the 's at the end.

[uncommon]

7. Ah, that's upsetting -- and apparently it is too late to edit -- here are the addresses:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Men's_rights

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women's_rights

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

4. I have a problem with your first line.

There are some DUers who seem to think that us few outspoken feminist DUers have an anti-male agenda, or wish to downplay the needs of men and the harms that patriarchy does to men.

I don't agree with that at all. In fact, I think the problem is that whenever someone talks about male rights, which despite being described in the rest of your post come at little or no cost to anything in the women's rights movement, it's taken as a threat to women's rights. These things aren't mutually exclusive.

Women's rights absolutely need expanding and there are many societal issues that are very harmful to women. Men have rights problems and societal issues as well that are harmful to them. Those statements are both true. I don't see why these statements need be mutually exclusive at all and yet they are taken as such by many of the women here.

[Pithlet]

12. I don't agree.

Sorry. No, the two issues aren't mutually exclusive. But they are often tied together. Many men are threatened by the women's rights movement. They feel it hurts them and they often do tie the two issues together. When they do they get jumped on for it. I have seen men discuss issues more times than I can count without getting jumped on by the women of DU. I simply haven't seen what you claim, at least not consistently.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

13. I've seen men get jumped on solely for talking about men's issues too.

So one's okay, but the other is not? Interesting double standard you hold.

[Pithlet]

16. What exactly were those issues they were talking about?

I don't hold any double standard. I've been around the block here. The issues I usually see get jumped on are things like child support. Or "men's abortion" Or custody issues. And those are hardly issues that only affect men. Now, if we're talking about issues that only directly affect men, or an issue that a man brought up that only personally affects him, and there's some evil brigade of women on here that I just somehow managed to never become aware of, please, by all means, enlighten me, and I will concede my point. But until then...

[Recursion]

18. I'd like to see violence and education addressed as "men's issues"

I don't know if that fits under the rubric of "men's rights", and I think the jackasses that call themselves the "men's rights movements" may have poisoned that term too much. But violence and education really are two areas where our society is failing men right now.

[seabeyond]

19. violence, absolutelly. where do you see education failing our boys. i have two boys in school

and i think they get a kick ass education. i have been thinking where i may see the education fall short because they are boys. i see a couple trends i dont like. that we deal in this house.

[Recursion]

22. Female to male college graduation ratio is something like 2:1

And boys are much more likely to drop out of high school.

Women are basically all of the grad students and most of the faculty in the humanities and life sciences, too. The so-called "hard" sciences are still overwhelmingly male, which is also troubling.

I could buy that there really is a "natural" drift of the sexes into different fields, but I have trouble believing it's that strong.

[seabeyond]

25. i understand this. this would be in parenting and societal changes.

it isnt education failing our boys. it is parents and society failing. i can see it happening. i can see it in my boys friends. shit, my boys can see this and have talked to me about it.

in the past, there were jobs men could have and get good pay without the degree. and those degreed didnt have the competition from women degreed.

why do you see the failure for our boys in education?

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

28. Could you not have said the same at one point about getting women to go through school?

Many did, and the accurate response was that there did not exist adequate social supports that women needed to get through school. The problem is, men need those supports too - the problems women faced aren't exactly unique to women - but they're not getting them. We need more out-of-school EDUCATION (not sports) programs for boys, we need more scholarships and fellowships for collegiate men, and we need more encouragement for men to go on to college.

But doing that would be considered sexist by many, even if it did not come at the expense of existing women's programs.

[seabeyond]

33. quit fuckin making htis into battle and assume i am. it is pissing me off.... i have two BOYS

i am fuckin getting thru school. i am aware of the issue. we have addressed it in THIS home. the boys are allowed nothing else but to excel. end of story. no if ands or butttts.

so

the issue with school.

what are we willing to give up so men have the societal support and the address to the parent. it is not the school that is lacking in trying to graduate these boys. unless there is something you see i do not. i am willing to listen if there is something within the educational system. i have not seen it.

what i see effecting the boys and ENCOURAGING failure comes from parenting and societal expectation. i also see in addressing this, there are things that are going to have to shift, when conditioning boys their role to play

are you willing to give that up, for boys. because i have met nothing but resistence.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

40. I'm not battling at all.

I don't know what your problem is, but you're the one swearing - not me. And I didn't even remotely come close to "attacking" you. You're the one taking a combative posture here.

[seabeyond]

42. you could put the same onus on women. wrong. girls do not have the same gender role as male

how can you say the same just adding female.

what support are you seeing that males dont have within the educational system, that females have

[lumberjack_jeff]

47. "The women's educational equity program"

women's scholarships
The american association of university women

... for starters.

[seabeyond]

50. there are scholarships for white males too. it is not the same as they give minority and women,

possibly. but if you compare scholarship to women compared to football, i am sure they are doing no better.

but

are you suggesting we drop scholarships for women and minorities. and then i would have to research who are funding these and why, yada yada

and not getting into that

[lumberjack_jeff]

51. Okay, here you go

http://www.collegescholarships.org/men.htm

Oh. There's no such link.

[seabeyond]

53. i am not reading a bunch of scholarship info. yes...scholarships for minority, women and football

players.

lots

i dont know

that is not what the educational problem is

[AngryAmish]

92. per Title 9, number of sports scholarships are roughly the same

It used to be football was left out, not so much anymore.

[Recursion]

29. I'm not sure I agree

First off, I think schools do have something to do with it, especially early on. I'm not sure it's a great idea for boys in elementary school to have no adult males around except the janitor. But clearly boys are performing less well at school than girls are. I'd like to figure out why, and what we can do to fix that.

[lumberjack_jeff]

35. +1 n/t

[seabeyond]

37. if males wont take these teaching position, what are we as a society to do. nt

[lumberjack_jeff]

44. Outreach.

Districts with a high minority population offer higher pay to attract minority teachers.

[seabeyond]

46. so.... male will get higher pay to do elementary teacher. i cant go there. as much as i want male

teacher in elementary school, it would be pure bullshit sexism that female would continue to get the low pay and male would get a higher pay because they are......

fuckin male

cant do that

and i want male teachers

but nope

maybe men ought to man up on this one, recognize the need and sacrifice

[lumberjack_jeff]

49. See, there you go.

Recognize a problem, but unwilling to do anything to solve it because a man might derive some benefit from it.

Hell, I'll even offer a different solution. Offer an extra buck an hour to attract female teaching students to go into the trades instead. Men will fill the resulting teacher shortage.

[seabeyond]

52. institutionalized and documented sexism. blatant sexism. you want to encourage the very

thing women have been battling and turn it on its head.

ya

you are right

i dismiss the stepping on anyone for the advancement of anyone.

[Rabrrrrrr]

82. Well, if women aren't willing to cowboy up and take those welding positions, or CEO spots,

or engineering jobs, what are we supposed to do about it?

Silly argument.

[Lyric]

84. No, it's not a silly argument.

Women APPLY for CEO positions (or welding, or engineering), but are rejected. Most men don't bother to SEEK positions as teachers; often because they aren't prestigious enough/don't pay enough/are perceived as "girly"/whatever. Some men do, of course--but obviously not enough to make a difference in the gender gap.

The point she was making is that we can't FORCE men to take teaching jobs. They have to decide that teachers are important to society and that teaching is a noble enough profession to be worth the sacrifice in pay and prestige.

Offering to pay men more isn't the answer either, because that would be horrendously unfair to the female teachers who've suffered and sacrificed for years with the ridiculously low wages that our teachers make. A raise in pay across the board would be a better idea, I think.

:shrug:

[Recursion]

88. Welding

Women APPLY for CEO positions (or welding, or engineering)

I'll grant CEO, but welding and engineering? Why are applications to engineering schools for all specialties except biomedical engineering 75% male? And for that matter why are biomedical engineering applications 66% female? Why do women like life sciences so much more than physics and chemistry?

[seabeyond]

85. what lyric said, unless you have another solution to encourage males to take elementary teaching

classes. from what i read, even if they are in education, they are not taking the course to be in elementary schools.

and it is certainly not cause they are in demand. because of the unique role, they are the prime candidate to get the position. they are wanted, per supply and demand.

[Recursion]

89. I think I wasn't very clear

I wasn't talking about lack of demand in an economic sense. I'm talking about a culture that is unwelcoming of men, just like electrical engineering is a culture that is unwelcoming of women. Most companies are more than happy to hire female electrical engineers. That does not mean the industry has a culture that is welcoming to women (it definitely does not).

[seabeyond]

90. i gave you articles to read. what i have read, the are NOT unwelcoming, futher they are a

commodity. valued. grabbed up.

[seabeyond]

36. no male elementary teachers was a big issue in my house. do you know why there are no male

elementary teachers?

they are not applying. two things. first it is the wiping the nose (female role) and second it is the pay.

as my boys were going thru the schools we often talked about the all female teachers. we really wanted a male teacher. when a substitute cam in that was male, i would ask them to tell me the different feel in class. if it felt different, how they felt about it, what they saw. it was middle school they started getting male teachers. specialized fields, high pay.

that is not the school fault.

that is the male gender that feels their role is not to teach those young ages and their time worth more pay

i agree with you

i think it would behoove bother genders getting mix gender in the early grades. schools would like that. i have read education boards and unions would like it. jsut cant get the men to do it.

it would also address a particular issue i have with boys/girls/teachers at that age. allowed girl abuse to males. a HIGE issue i have seen in the lower grade, and acceptance of it from all.

[lumberjack_jeff]

41. The only teacher I know of who was fired...

... was fired because she restrained a 6 year old autistic boy so that a 6 year old girl could hit him.

Another teacher saw it and reported the incident.

[seabeyond]

45. i brought it up. this is the ONE issue i have with gender, that i see our boys are being mistreated

i saw it often in the schools. we talked about it often. i addressed it. again.... tis one thing the schools need to do something about and it really comes from the parenting. really comes from the parenting. i know why, i know how it happened and i HATE it.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

43. We have literally thousands of programs encouraging women to get into science.

I've not seen a single program encouraging men to get into teaching (or nursing, for that matter). That's not parenting - that's systemically ignoring a problem.

[seabeyond]

48. education has always been open to male. it is lower education MALE refuse

because it does not pay enough. they wont take the jobs. higher education, administration positions. no to elementary.

and they have plenty of science and math programs for both genders.

[Recursion]

55. Electrical engineering has been open to women for 50 years or so

Women are still "refusing" to go into my field, though. Not because they can't, not because they don't like the subject (well, most women don't like it any more than most men do, but you know what I mean), but because the colleges and workplaces have created a culture they consider hostile and unwelcoming. I suggest the same thing might be true for male teachers in early grades: they feel like they aren't wanted there, whether by the administration, faculty, or parents.

[seabeyond]

58. that is not the information i gleamed this morning doing research. principle, adm all

said they grab the few they find. that they are not applying for the position. not a male role with young kids (womans and nurturing) and pay.

you cannot suggest a conspiracy on a guess. i have been involved in the schools of my kids, and i do not get any sense at all that their is an uncomfortable relationship with the males in that position. as a matter of fact, they seem to have an honored position, just cause it is not the norm

if i saw anywhere it was discriminatory, i would YELL about that. i wanted male teachers for my boys too. and was thrilled when they got it in later years

specialized teaching. science, math and history. when was the last time you saw a male english teacher.

[Recursion]

59. That sounds like what I'm saying

"Principals and administrators all grab the few they can find". The same could be said of female electrical engineers (though companies seem more interested in laying us all off, lately).

I'm saying in both cases, men or women do not feel welcome, and that lack of welcome starts at the undergrad level. Maybe even before. Because of that, very few women choose EE, and very few men choose early childhood education, and because of that there's a premium on the few who do it.

[seabeyond]

61. it is the LOW pay that stops men from doing elementary. it is the teaching to read

that men feel is not their role. wiping noses. taking care of tears. that is what the lower grade is made up of. and the men dont want to do it because of that and low pay.

that is not the same

the men are welcome. and they say no.

THEY chose not to not hostile work environment, because it is not GOOD enough for THEM

[Recursion]

63. Plenty of men take low-paying jobs

First off, this being DU I think we can all agree that teachers need to be paid a lot more than they are.

that is what the lower grade is made up of. and the men dont want to do it because of that and low pay.

Well, so you say. I don't agree. I think plenty of men would like to teach early childhood but they don't feel like they are wanted there. I'm not saying other teachers or administrators are doing it, "society" is as much as anything else.

[seabeyond]

64. have you dont any reasearch. listened to the actual men that have gone in

and the principals looking for men. or is this an opinion.

and plenty of men take low paying jobs... when they dont have a degree.

[Recursion]

67. And when they do have a degree

Public aid lawyers, health service doctors (to bring up the two "big ticket" degrees). But there are also environmental activists and legislative assistants making next to nothing with fancy degrees.

And no, I've seen no surveys of men asking why they did not choose early childhood education. I've known 2 men who tried to get a degree in education and felt like they were not welcome by the faculty and fellow students in their undergrad days, and changed fields. For whatever that's worth.

[seabeyond]

74. why... is the poor showing of boys in academic focus solely on elementary school teacher

and the possibility, not probability since all facts point otherwise, being placed.

why are we not addressing the HUGE issues with our boys that allow them to be failures in academics that are absolutely factual and detrimental even though they have nothing to do with the school system.

[lumberjack_jeff]

76. "Failure in academics" has everything to do with the school system. n/t

[seabeyond]

79. i really could not disagree with you more on this lumberjack. nt

[lumberjack_jeff]

87. If in the last 30 years girls succeeded and boys failed...

the blame lies with something that has changed. Nothing changed about parents, therefore the parents aren't to blame, unless we've all collectively decided that we're putting our effort into daughters instead.

[seabeyond]

91. lots have hanged with parents. but... numbers show men are going to and graduating same amount as

past. so there is not a difference there. it is just that women are going to and graduating at an exceedingly higher rate.

per another poster. i dont have the info.

[seabeyond]

78. some info

this article was directed from a male teacher looking at the issue


http://www.seattlepi.com/local/252612_maleteachers19.html

Students could benefit by seeing more men in the classroom, and for some students, especially those from single-parent homes, a male teacher at school might be the only positive male role model in their lives, she said.

Yet at the University of Washington, usually only 12 percent to 15 percent of the students coming through the elementary prep teaching program are men, said Karen Harris, the program's field coordinator.

The men who do go into education are more likely to seek teaching jobs in middle or high schools, where they can specialize in a specific subject and work with more mature students to help them grasp advanced concepts.

Elementary school teachers are more likely to enjoy working with young children and aiding their development -- traditionally female roles.


http://www.sptimes.com/2007/01/12/Northoftampa/The_few_The_proud_The.shtml

It’s no easy task to get there. The percentage of males in teaching has hit a 40-year low, the National Education Association reports, at slightly fewer than one of every four teachers in U.S. public schools. Florida logs in lower than the national level, and Hillsborough County below that. The state ranks Hillsborough 64th of 67 counties when it comes to the percentage of men in the classroom.


The vast majority of them teach in middle and high schools. Elementary schools, which serve 47 percent of the school district’s students, employ just 21 percent of the county’s male teachers. Twenty-four of the 130 elementary schools have just one or two.

There is little to no hard evidence that this affects student achievement. Male teachers can be just as good, or as bad, as their female counterparts.


Still, there remains a general sense in some corners that kids should be exposed to both genders as teachers.
____________________-

in all i have read today, it seems as if the schools recognize the issue. this is a male teacher that has these two links and others.


http://simplyteaching.blogspot.com/2009/03/lack-of-male-teachers-in-elementary.html

The small number of male teachers, especially at the elementary school level,
"is a problem in the same way we don't have enough minority teachers for kids to
connect with," said Jeanne Harmon, executive director of the non-profit Center
for Strengthening the Teaching Profession.

"It's a big problem when kids
don't see themselves reflected in the teaching staff."

Students could
benefit by seeing more men in the classroom, and for some students, especially
those from single-parent homes, a male teacher at school might be the only
positive male role model in their lives, she said.

[road2000]

66. "when was the last time you saw a male english teacher"

Yesterday. My son, age 26.

[seabeyond]

70. good for him. elementary nonexistent. middle school never saw.

i had one in highschool. my boy has yet to find one.

my sons excel in reading and english. oldest top 99% of the nation.

i am not saying playing that conditioned gender thing. it is what i see.

what grade is he teaching?

[lumberjack_jeff]

56. For men, the door is open.

For women, public support will push you through it.

It's undeniable that massive public policy effort is in place to help women attain college. It is equally undeniable that there's a remarkable lack of that same support for men.

[seabeyond]

60. bullshit.... where is that non support coming from. why havent we gotten to the nitty gritty of it

all male, all the time. sports and girls. girls and sports.... that is what being a man is. that is what is conditioned into our boys. my boys were harrassed by the majority of boys because SCHOOL is the PRIORITY in this house and nothing less is acceptable. so they were not manly enough for the culture.

fathers, society, media all pushing for boys being academically stupid. and the schools battling those stereotypes.

[lumberjack_jeff]

68. Google scholarships for women. Google scholarships for men.

twice as many hits for the former, and most of the latter are discussing athletic scholarships.

[seabeyond]

71. so now, has the whole argument magnified on scholarship offered?

is that why males are doing so poorly in schools?

[lumberjack_jeff]

75. No. That's only a small part of it.

But parents are an even smaller part of it.

[seabeyond]

80. parents are the huge of it. society second. nt

[Rabrrrrrr]

83. So then that's the fault of MEN? That they won't take a lower pay? Not a fault of the system

that values elementary school teaching less?

There's also the social stigma of being a male elementary school teacher - "Oooh, you want to teach little kids. You must be gay/effeminate/limp-wristed/asthmatic-moomy's-boy/sissy" or some other bullshit epithet.

Nah, easier to just blame it on men themselves for not having the balls to go into a profession that doesn't treat them as well as other professions do.

[seabeyond]

86. who says "gay/ effeminate/ limp-wristed /asthmatic-moomy's-boy/sissy"

MEN.

who is not taking jobs cause of low pay. men

or not taking job because of "gay/effeminate/limp-wristed/asthmatic-moomy's-boy/sissy". men

and as far as paying teachers more... ok, lets. how is that the schools. look to your govt. now, who is the majority in that. and who are the most aggressive at reducing funding to schools. predominately male repug party.

but what the helll

who would you like to point the finger at.

[lumberjack_jeff]

34. If the failure is by parents

Why have college graduation rates for women doubled in 30 years?

Kind of a selective failure, if that's the case. Did parents suddenly stop valuing sons?

[seabeyond]

38. it is conditioned roles we have decided for each gender. and that is certainly parenting

it does not have to be

[Pithlet]

81. And see, I absolutely agree with you.

It is an issue that is absolutely ignored and it is a shame. And it is especially why I fight those jackasses with the vigor I do. They do no one any favors.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

23. By this standard, how are any women's issues ones that only affect women?

Wages? I'd love for my wife to earn equitably to men - that she does not directly affects me. A woman's right to choose is certainly a health care issue that affects men unless you think only single women that are entirely unloved by a male are the only ones who would choose to get abortions. I could go on and on and on.

The fact is, even your response is dripping with double standards and enmity.

[Pithlet]

77. What are you talking about? I'm defending against the assertion that there's large group of women

on DU attacking men who are only attempting to discuss issues germain to them. Emnity? I guess it is frustrating when you can't prove your point, so it would be easy to project that back on me. I'm sorry. :shrug:

[Recursion]

17. But rights of men qua men that are in danger are vanishingly few

Plenty of our rights are under assault all the time; as far as I can think only a very few are actually limited to and based on male-ness, and they basically all in one way or another revolve around divorce.

If we expand the idea to "problems that affect men disproportionately", I do come up with two topics that are not treated as "men's issues" but maybe should be:

1. Education
2. Violence

Men are much less likely than women to go to college, and much more likely than women to be victims (and perpetrators) of violence. Looking at how society is not meeting men's needs in those areas might be useful. But that never seems to be what "men's rights activists" do.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

21. Funny you should mention those two.

Because the AAUW sees absolutely no problem whatsoever with the education issue and even in this thread the violence issue is totally dismissed. And you yourself, right in this post, completely dismiss any family rights issues that affect men.

As I believe I said, I don't in any way, shape, or form think these male issues are as severe or dire as women's issues. It's just to some, they're not even allowed to be discussed for fear that they'll take away from women's issues. And to me, that's just wrong. We can and should address both.

[seabeyond]

27. were are the issues with violence or the education? what needs to be addressed with either issue.

i am all for it.

[lumberjack_jeff]

31. Maybe you're seeing what you want to see.

1) education
2) health
3) violence
4) workplace safety
5) homelessness
6) employment
7) family court fairness
8) toleration of active parenting roles

These are the issues that I see as important for men today, and I've been fairly consistent about it. All of those have statistically relevant proof of the severity of the problem, and all of them have solutions. The problem is none of the solutions seem socially acceptable.

[ProfessionalLeftist]

5. "seem to think that ... outspoken feminist DUers have an anti-male agenda"

Right. And Obama is going to enslave white people, if you ask the teabaggers. Same brand of ignorance really. What it really is - is fear.

Here's a video. While the video is about racism and not sexism, it may apply to both 'isms' because what's motivating ignorance about both - is fear:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yt-o8RZpxT8

If you don't get it, I'm sorry. I can't work with you from where you are.

[uncommon]

8. I can't watch videos at work, but

how is your analogy anything like what I have said here?

[MineralMan]

6. You should probably fix your links. The ones you made

lead to a Wikipedia error, since they contain two forward slashes in front of the apostrophe.

I'm not sure how that happened, but they don't work. There's a time limit for editing posts.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Men's_rights
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women's_rights

Above are the correct links.

[supernova]

9. Yours don't work either

see the \ in the end?

[MineralMan]

11. Damn. You're right. Even if I edit them and take out the

slash, it comes back. Something's wrong with the converter here, it looks like. Most links I can just paste in and they work great. Very interesting.

[elehhhhna]

10. Very thoughtful. Thank you. What jumps out at me when I consider

the cope of demands for women's rights is that we have to fight on two fronts: we carry the banner for childrens rights as well.

Those oft-cited and much-complained-about "special" laws pertaining only to females are generally just "work-arounds" that would be moot IF we enact the Equal Rights Amendment.

Men's rights demands generally fall under the category of parenting, as well -- whether it's the (long overdue) implementation of genderneutral custody decisions OR the ability to deny support to children they don't want, i.e., the "why can't I make her have an abortion?" extremists. This primary focus on father's rights suggests that men don't feel systemic, genderbased discrimination in employment, etc.

Bonus random thought: Automatic custody to the Mother is relatively new because in older societies the children were the fathers property, period. Even so, most of those cultures kept/keep the children with Mama until they reach a certain age.

[Recursion]

65. Automatic custody to the mother

I think the big factor with that is that mothers often wind up with the kids during the initial separation period, and the #1 rule of child custody is "don't change anything unless you have to", so they keep custody after the divorce is final. Possibly "unfair", but the whole language of "rights" is out of place here: parents have no "rights" with respect to their children, just obligations.

[Recursion]

14. I know it's a prejudice, but everytime I see an MRA online...

...I just get a mental picture of every creepy, controlling, 50-something miserable divorced jackass I've ever met (they look a lot alike and love wearing shorts and socks with sandals). Constantly whining about custody which wouldn't be an issue if he hadn't so alienated his family. And shouldn't be an issue if he would just think for a moment that parents have responsibilities, not rights.

Sorry, it's just a "movement" that drives me up a wall. And, yeah, IME it's only about custody decisions and child support requirements.

[musette_sf]

20. + 1

agreed

[lumberjack_jeff]

26. yay for stereotyping! n/t

[lumberjack_jeff]

24. I don't entirely agree, but that was well said.

a) Women have a much wider array of choices available to them that are defined as "success" than the picture you portray. Carly Fiorina, Hillary Clinton, Melissa Etheridge, Oprah Winfrey, Elena Ambrosiadou, Paula Deen, JP Rowling, Gloria Steinem. What do they have in common aside from being successful?

b) speaking for myself, my motivation isn't "rights" but awareness. Society isn't cutting anyone a sweet deal, but the more we pretend the issues that harm men don't exist, the more the solutions for womens problems (and the blame for them) pose additional harm to people who are already suffering.

c) support networks exist for women that don't exist for men.

d) absent the assumption that men killing other men is qualitatively less a problem, I don't get why that has any relevance to the observation that men are more likely to be the victims of violence.

e) society has little leverage (or interest) in changing the dynamics of what makes each couple tick. "...she must save enough energy for the sex her husband is entitled to" is not a useful or accurate generalization.

[JerseygirlCT]

30. Fabulous post! nt

[Touchdown]

39. Q; Why should women or men take advice from "undeclared"?

:shrug:

[seabeyond]

54. are we not clever enough to read, disgest and determine. does gender really have to do with it. nt

[Touchdown]

69. I am just asking. No reason to get snippy about it.

:eyes:

[seabeyond]

72. cause, really, there was no snarky in your question. nt

[Recursion]

57. One should not have to declare one's sex

to have one's opinion on gender issues be considered fairly.

Particularly given the history of treatment female contributers to DU have had.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

73. Your links are broken, I think. N.T.