North Carolina Restaurant to parents: No screaming kids allowed

[Amerigo Vespucci]

Restaurant to parents: No screaming kids allowed
Owner of Olde Salty restaurant in North Carolina spurs controversy with signs

http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/39075518/ns/today-parenting/



On an airplane, in a movie theater or in a restaurant, the shrill sound of a childish voice raised in distress can resemble nails across a blackboard — especially when it’s not your child. Now one North Carolina eatery has drawn a line in the sand by posting signs prohibiting children’s uproar.

“Screaming Children Will NOT Be Tolerated!” say placards posted at the Olde Salty restaurant in Carolina Beach. N.C. And while the signs may seem to be telling some parents their patronage is unwelcome, restaurant owner Brenda Armes said it’s actually been a business boon.

“It has been a good thing for us,” Armes told NBC affiliate WECT. “It has brought in more customers than it has ever kept away.”

Indeed, a first-time diner at the Olde Salty told WECT he embraced the signage. “It’s not very enjoyable when you hear a bunch of kids screaming,” Gary Gibson said. “It’s nice to see a sign like that up.”

EDITED BY ADMIN: COPYRIGHT

[tammywammy]

1. Good for them, I'd eat there. n/t

[Kalyke]

79. Good for you - I wouldn't.

I don't tolerate discrimination whether the person of is a different gender, sexuality, race or age. Toddlers, by virtue of age, cannot reason cognitively and sometimes scream no matter how much the parent attempts to stop them.

This is age discrimination. Period.

[superduperfarleft]

95. Is a bar practicing illegal discrimination because they don't allow people under 21 in?

This isn't discrimination. This is the admittedly heavy-handed result of the hordes of parents out there that don't seem to realize that not all of us want to be serenaded during our meals by a screeching child.

I don't go to Chuckie Cheese and demand a wine list and cigar lounge, so don't go to a real restaurant and demand that everyone else cater to your little angel.

[KamaAina]

Is it against the law for people under 21 to be in possession of food?

:shrug:

[superduperfarleft]

141. People don't have to be drinking alcohol to be in a bar. n/t

[joshcryer]

435. It is against the law to disturb the peace.

[tomm2thumbs]

553. exactly, or to produce sounds that cause pain or injury to hearing (check local dB limit laws)

heck, she's probably going to lower her insurance rates because her restaurant will be safer for people's hearing

[Warren DeMontague]

629. Wow. Tell that to the "loud pipes save lives, my motorcycle is my dick substitute" crowd

who would complain endlessly any time anyone would post a thread asking why people have to blast through the neighborhood at 4 am with their loud fucking motorcycles, knocking plates off the shelves.

[AlbertCat]

223. This is the admittedly heavy-handed result of the hordes of parents

.... who bring their kids to the BEACH! I bet they don't want wet and sandy kids or adults in there either. Is that discrimination or heavy handed? Carolina Beach is a RESORT TOWN on the coast. I'm sure the ratio of parents with toddlers having to go out and eat is higher than the average town.... during the season anyway. (which is over, BTW so now is a strange time to do this, unless they'd just had enough from the season.)

[LostinVA]

525. Or year-round customers getting pissed at rowdy tourist kids?

And, the owners giving their regulars a "reward" for their loyalty.

[4_TN_TITANS]

393. Very well said... n/t

[Rebubula]

110. LOL...

...Age discrimination??????

Just LOL....

[JonLP24]

176. You'd be surprised

My mom got fines removed from my younger brother due to a policy of a "Children aren't allowed to skateboard in the complex." She hired a lawyer and was successful because the sign didn't say, "People aren't allowed to skateboard." What I'm saying here is they HOA couldn't say children aren't allowed to skateboard because it implies that adults are allowed to. I see a similar situation here, are screaming adults allowed in the restaurant?

[Boojatta]

209. It depends. Do they tolerate screaming adults?

[yellowcanine]

416. Exactly. Should say: "Screaming humans of all ages will not be tolerated."

[tomm2thumbs]

554. or 'brats' because they come at all ages - including parenting age

where most little brats come from

[LostinVA]

126. Oh, it is not

Children are not being barred from the restaurant. My niece and nephew were very well behaved children in public, even when they were toddlers. They didn't run around screaming, and they were certainly happy, active, and inquisitive kids.

[Myrina]

213. EXACTLY.

Children are not 'banned' ... they are expected to behave. And when they don't behave, their parents are expected to take them outside until they calm down so the rest of the patrons don't have to deal with the tantrum.

If parents can't teach their kids to behave in public, then they need to leave them home with a sitter, or elect not to go out & impose their lack of parenting skill on the rest of us.

That's common sense and common courtesy, I'd say.

[blueamy66]

298. + Amen.

common sense...but many parents think that their "little darlings" are innocent gifts from god...pllllleeeassse...

[grace0418]

312. The real problem is many parents think they are the only people to have given birth in the

whole wide world so therefore everyone must bow to them and their miracle offspring. Apparently common courtesy goes out the window when you're miracle workers.

[Warren DeMontague]

455. Oh, the humanity. Oh, the imposition.

Someone actually couldn't get their bread because there was a terrifying mom with 3 scary screaming toddlers in the bread aisle. They may have even starved, I don't know, because they couldn't possibly face the terror of the screaming children for 20 seconds.

[grace0418]

459. Uh, what?

Were you replying to my post? I'm just not sure but whatever.

[Warren DeMontague]

460. I'm replying to the generalized moaning and wailing that goes on in these threads

by the people whose lives have been absolutely DESTROYED by encountering a toddler or baby making noise.

It's similar to the people who spend hours bitching about the fascist, Auschwitz-like imposition of being forced to go outside the bar before lighting a cigarette.

[ThomasQED]

477. self-delete

enough already...

[miscsoc]

532. or the nightmarish ordeal

of not being able to drag your wailing kids to every single restaurant in the world

[Warren DeMontague]

539. It's what I live for.

That, and taking them on airplanes. Really.

My life will be particularly lacking if I can't take 'em to fine establishments like "Olde Salty", where they notify patrons of policies such as "no screamin' brats" with signs obviously printed on 8.5 x 11" pc printer paper, and scotch taped to the wall.

Really, I'm envisioning the pristine, well-dressed, almost Buddha-like tranquility of the Olde Salty fine dining establishment, now that they've solved that issue.

[DWilliamsamh]

586. Ever heard of a straw man argument? If not look it up. (N/T)

[Warren DeMontague]

628. If you think it's a straw man argument

you haven't been here for very long, because that's EXACTLY what takes place, every time, like clockwork.

And I'm not the only one who has noticed.

[DWilliamsamh]

641. All I'm saying is I have read a butt load of posts on this and not ONE

raises the complaint to my-life-is-being-destroyed-by-these-wailing-kids level. So it isn't "exactly" what goes on, much less "like clockwork." Ergo you are making a straw man argument.

What I do see is the overwhelming majority of people saying the reason the "ban" is in place, and appreciated, is because too many parents don't have the common courtesy to remove their children from a restaurant until the child calms down or ignore full meltdowns and generally bad behavior. Not all parents, but you know what they say about one bad apple.

[Warren DeMontague]

647. Eh, whatever.

I agree that the default should be, remove the kids from the situation if they can't behave. Certainly in a restaurant, certainly if the behavior is disruptive.

Whether you see it or not, though, there's a pervasive attitude that crops up in these threads. What galls me is, for instance, the folks who can't help sympathizing with the psychos who walk up to screaming babies and start slapping them in the aisle at Wal-Mart. ("Ohhhh, I've wanted to do that") or can't understand why the mom with 3 noisy kids can't just leave the supermarket and come back later because the mere sight of children renders them unable to pick up a loaf of bread.

[DWilliamsamh]

652. Aaaaand two MORE straw men. Have a good one (N/T)

[AnArmyVeteran]

524. That's so true. It's like they have the only child in the world.

I've also noticed it's almost impossible to talk to a parent of a newborn about anything else but their child. I understand they are proud of their child but it seems as if a lot of parents lose the ability to talk about any other subject. And if you're among several of them just give up tring to talk about anything related to adults.

[Warren DeMontague]

543. Do you have kids?

The reason parents of newborns talk about little else is because properly parenting a newborn can be a fairly all-consuming, 24-7 experience. Sort of like spending a year on a remote island. Most of what you talk about is going to pertain to the situation.

So, to you and all the other people who make noises about "these parents think their kids are the center of the universe" and "these parents think they have the only child in the world".... is that what they've SAID to you? Or is that your projection of the situation, because these people aren't talking about something YOU find more important?

:shrug:

And, here's the kicker- have you actually SAID something to these hypothetical people about this hypothetical behavior you find so irritating? Or do you just wait until later to grouse about it behind their back?

[Maru Kitteh]

572. Some elderly folks can't talk about anything but surgeries and bowel movements but guess what?

Nobody wants to hear that shit either.

[Warren DeMontague]

578. I don't know what planet you live on, where you're constantly being forced into conversations

against your will.

[Maru Kitteh]

584. Wow. That was an embarrassingly weak rebuke. You should try again.

[Warren DeMontague]

585. why do you think I'm interested in "rebuking" you? I don't have the time or inclination.

Know why I don't have the time or inclination?

Mostly time?

I'm a parent.

But I'll summarize: dude wants to walk into a conversation amongst a bunch of parents of little kids--- and demand they talk about stuff *he* finds interesting.

My suggestion to dude is that dude find different friends/acquaintances, instead of demanding that his friends/acquaintances stop talking about what is going on in their immediate lives.

[X_Digger]

319. +1!! n/t

[Warren DeMontague]

456. Like how the lady w/the crying 1 yr. old in Wal-Mart should have been a "better disciplinarian"?

Sometimes, little kids misbehave. VERY little children, like babies and toddlers, sometimes scream and do other obnoxious things. It has NOTHING to do with a "lack of parenting skill" (let me guess- no kids?) ... certainly, in some situations, removal is warranted. I would put many- but not all- restaurant situations in that category.

But demanding that a woman with 3 kids leave a supermarket because you don't like the noise- really, if humanity bugs someone that much, they should be the ones buying their shit online.

[vanbean]

485. Bingo!

[elehhhhna]

519. Totally! Walmart = a good, sit-down restaurant.

Analogy FAIL, Warren. Try again.

[Warren DeMontague]

540. You're seriously suggesting that "Olde Salty" sounds like a "good, sit-down restuarant"?

They printed that sign on notebook paper and taped it to the wall, for fuck's sake.

Nevertheless, I do think there are times when it is appropriate to remove one's obnoxious kids from a situation, just as it is appropriate at times to remove one's obnoxious pets, one's obnoxious plants, one's obnoxious clones, even one's obnoxious sock puppets.

It depends on the situation.






Ya know?

[elehhhhna]

555. olde salty ? lol

[Raineyb]

589. So you think because the restaurant doesn't hold up to your "fine standards" it's okay for

assholes to just let their children to run amok? Those diners don't deserve to not have their dining experience which they're paying for, disrupted by kids who behave worse than animals?

Well they should keep their children in line but because this is only the olde salty I'm going to allow them to act the fool and disrupt other people. It's not a fine enough establishment to bother with common courtesy.

What a rather nasty sense of entitlement you're showing there. Children should be expected to behave properly no matter what the damn setting.

[Warren DeMontague]

627. I think you're kidding yourself about this place.

But by all means, go ahead and eat there. :thumbsup:

[Raineyb]

643. It's not about the place it's about the behavior. Your problem seems to be you don't understand

that.

[Warren DeMontague]

648. No, it's about the place. Most establishments have a policy of reserving the right to refuse service

to anyone, that should cover just about everything. (without trying to make some snarky, grousy point about children) Some even post it, although even when I worked in a funky-ass indie college town store we tried to make our signage look a little bit better than this:



but, whatever. I suppose the sign gurus at "Olde Salty" should be commended for not making any spelling errors, even if they did choose a name for their restaurant that makes it sound like the meal would consist of a toothless old pirate taking a whizz in your mouth. :shrug:

[Raineyb]

649. It's about the behavior. You seem to think there's a certain class of establishment that doesn't

have the right to expect its patrons to behave civilly.

It's the type of bullshit that people who let their children run around like savages would espouse rather than taking responsibility for being obnoxious gits.

[Warren DeMontague]

650. "you seem to think"- translation, you don't want to respond to what I've actually said.

and instead choose to put words in my mouth, so you can have the fight you're so clearly itching to have.


If you want to argue with yourself, go ahead. You don't need me to do it.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Sy-dqYXcA3c/SojVioiEXgI/AAAAAAAAFqw/E4e941d8HnM/s400/sock+puppets.png

[tomm2thumbs]

549. basic good neighborlyness in action - yeppers

unfortunately what is lacking in this world, the more we see the days go by

[Arkansas Granny]

150. It's not discrimination, it's consideration.

When a child is noisy and out of control, a responsible parent removes them from the dining area so as not to spoil the dining enjoyment of the other patrons. After they settle down, bring them back to the table. It's a learning experience.

My children knew how to behave in public, even as toddlers. My grandchildren know also. They learned by being exposed to the situation and being taught what behavior was acceptable and what behavior was not. It's no chore to take them out in public and we often get compliments on their manners. Right now they are 2 yo and 3 1/2 yo.

[tomm2thumbs]

550. +1

but so many people who are arguing the point would be the first to get upset if it were THEIR special event that was getting ruined by a screaming brat and their inconsiderate parents.

I don't care if it is an adult or child, if they are screaming at the tops of their lungs, they are causing destructive noise and they need to be escorted from the building, by parent or by guardian

there is a law about 'disturbing the peace', no?

[tammywammy]

154. bwah, age discrimination

:rofl:

If the parent is unable to stop the child's tantrum/screaming, THEN STEP OUTSIDE. I've seen members of my own family do it, one of the toddlers would get upset and a parent would take them outside until they were able to calm down and return. You have no right to inflict a screaming child on everyone else in there, it's common courtesy.

[quickesst]

243. The effort it takes....

...to remove a child who is out of control from the situation should me minimal for a responsible, considerate parent. The fact that children cannot "reason cognitively" is the very reason decent, responible, and considerate parents take the high road and make logical decisions for them. Your statement undermines the word "discrimination", and lessens the effect it should have on more worthy situations. Shirking parental duties equals age discrimination? Thanks.
quickesst

[SmileyRose]

247. You are correct about toddlers

sometimes a toddler is going to just pitch a royal fit no matter what a parent does. Sometimes a parent sees things going well and thinks it's safe to take the toddler out to eat only to be treated to the fit to end all fits. This is almost always a sign the kid has had enough for one day and is better off being removed from the situation. More often that not a change of scenery ends the fit - and done correctly teaches a child the negative consequences of being a pain in the ass.


I have a 72 yr old uncle in law who lives with me that has similar issues due to disability and the same choices one might pick for kids works great with him too. We usually try to salvage the dinner out by redirecting his attention. Our tactics for that are many. The parent of a toddler will have an arsenal of tactics for that as well. But sometimes it's just pointless. We can cancel the meal if early enough, have it put into to go boxes if not. The idea that the best thing for Uncle (or anyone else) is full on meltdown mode in front of an entire restaurant makes no sense to me. Neither does the idea that an entire restaurant should simply accept their dining experience be made unpleasant by Uncle's unfortunate difficulties simply because he has "a right".

[MNBrewer]

280. maybe, but it's not illegal age discrimination

plus, it didn't say children not allowed, it said SCREAMING children not allowed.

[Cid_B]

315. Fair enough...

... just take their happy butt outside while keeping at it. Must be an inconvenience to stop ones meal to deal with a child...

[grace0418]

317. "This is age discrimination. Period." Oh, good grief, really?

That is one of the more absurd things I've read on DU in a long time.

"Toddlers, by virtue of age, cannot reason cognitively and sometimes scream no matter how much the parent attempts to stop them." That's absolutely true. And that is why it is up to PARENTS to remove the child from the situation. But since aome parents can't be bothered with parenting these days, some businesses have to remind them to do what common sense and common courtesy should have already compelled them to do.

[TexasObserver]

326. Responsible parents don't inflict their children on others.

Those of us who have raised a family to adulthood have been in every situation imaginable when it comes to kids. We learned how to pick and choose the places we would take our kids and the hours we would take them.

If you take kids to places where adults are engaging in adult meals, where most don't have kids with them, muchless little ones who misbehave, then you're imposing your kids on everyone there.

We need more places which toss out misbehaving patrons. If you can't keep your kids under control, you're not meeting your part of the bargain with society. We hold parents to a higher standard than you do.

[awoke_in_2003]

468. +1000. nt

[jgraz]

332. Oh, you gotta be kidding me.

Maybe you could sue the DOT for not allowing toddlers to drive. :rofl:

[grace0418]

397. LOL! Seriously THAT'S AGE DISCRIMINATION PERIOD! If little Johnny wants to drive

society is stifling his creativity by not allowing it!

[liberalhistorian]

421. HA! When my son was little, he wanted to do just that!

He always loved cars and couldn't understand why he, at four and five years old, couldn't just climb behind the wheel and do it himself. "Think, mommy, it'd give you a break and you could rest from driving sometimes." Yeah, it'd give me a "break" alright, a broken arm, leg, collarbone and whatever else would knock against a pole when he crashed the car there. LOL. He's grown and driving now, but we still have a good laugh over that.

But it was up to me, as the PARENT, to make him understand not only why he couldn't drive but that he couldn't have fits over it, either. And he has Asperger's Syndrome, so sometimes keeping him from meltdowns was quite a challenge. Strangely enough, he LOVED restaurants and almost never had a fit in one. He'd color and draw and flirt with the waitresses.

[LostinVA]

425. I let my nephew drive my car when he was about 10

In front of my parents' house on a quiet dead end street, for about 50 feet, at about five miles an hour. He talked about it for years.

[cstanleytech]

333. If they are not banning all children but rather

requiring parents with wild unruly children to remove them from the restaurant until they quiet down its not discrimination.

[whathehell]

348. When I screamed in church at the age of four (yes, I remember it )

my mother had the consideration to carry me out of the church.

If more parents had that kind of consideration, such signs wouldn't be necessary.

Sorry...I don't want to have my dinner ruined by a continuously screaming kid.

[joshcryer]

444. That was my first instance of "embarrassment." I did the same thing, my mom took me out...

...and I screamed "SHE'S GOING TO BEAT ME SHE'S GOING TO BEAT ME" the whole way, all the way back to the car. We sat in the hot car for the two hours that the service went on, she sat there, silently, and I sat there "expecting a beating." 2 hours. Hot car. She was visibly saddened by my behavior and I finally felt ... guilt. Embarrassment. Foolish. Stupid. All of those emotions just "clicked."

From that day forward I have had a decorum of respect that you would not know going by my posts on internet forums.

I was 4-5 when this happened.

[msanthrope]

510. You have a really good mom.

Make sure she knows that.

[secondwind]

407. Well, not really. I don't like it when parents ignore their screaming brat, while

the rest of us have to pay good money to eat out and the ear-piercing screams are in the background.

I have a 2-1/2 grandson like that, and believe me, you WOULDN'T want to hear him scream! :-)

[DWilliamsamh]

433. yeah...so their parent should have enough courtesy to either:

1) Not take a kid who is in a cranky mood or is just plain cranky to a restaurant that isn't labeled a 'family' place.

2) Get up and leave if their lovely child has an unexpected meltdown. That's what I did when my son was in the crying age years. Luck for me, my son wan't prone to crying fits. but when things went south, we left.

It's called common courtesy. I can't understand people who think their screaming child should be embraced by the community - in a restaurant or movie theater. It is true the child can't help it but the adult can! Since so many folks these days seem to suffer from a lack of common courtesy and feel no compunction to avoid screwing up other people's experience if they can help it - this restaurant is doing the exact correct thing.

[grace0418]

497. Hell to the yes! Amen!

Well said.

[awoke_in_2003]

464. they are discriminating...

against bad parents. I have seen parents that have very well behaved children. I have seen parents who have no control over their evil spawn. The children are bad because the parents are bad.

[TorchTheWitch]

635. perfect example is the neighbors I have on either side of me

As I mentioned in another post in this thread, I live in a rowhouse that has tiny backyards, and the neighbors on one side have a 2 1/2 year old screaming bratty demon child... except around me. Around me she's a perfect little angel because during one of her brick wall shattering piercing screams to get attention I made it clear to her that she WILL NOT behave badly around me. She's a bratty little demon because her parents simply don't parent.

The neighbors on the other side of me, however, have two little girls of 3 years and 1 1/2 years old. They are such absolute model children I sometimes wonder if they're extraordinary robots that they bought from some secret place no one else knows about. They're fantastic parents, and neither one of them has ever even raised their voice to the kids. Sadly, I just found out a couple of days ago that they bought a bigger house and are going to be moving away although I'm really happy that the biggest reason for their move is that she's pregnant again and they plan on having a few more kids.

The difference in my two next door neighbors' kids are astounding and it's because of the parenting. While the neighbors with the model children are fantastic parents, the neighbors with the screaming demon (and a 10 year old that is becoming truly evil) simply don't parent. Oh, they do all the usual things like feeding them and dressing them and bathing them, etc., but they TOTALLY dropped on ball on discipline... these kids have NO idea what appropriate behavior is and what isn't. And they themselves are lousy rolemodels with their own behavior... though in their mid-30's they still act like the worst of unruly teenagers.

[Tx4obama]

465. Screaming kids in restaurants is a PUBLIC DISTURBANCE & should not be tolerated.

It is not age discrimination.
If the child is behaving themselves then they are allowed to stay.
This is a BEHAVIOR issue and not an age issue.
The parents should get up and take them outside out of the earshot of others.

If an adult was hollering in a restaurant then they also would be asked to leave.

[Lucian]

482. It's a privately-owned business.

They can discriminate against whomever they wish.

[elehhhhna]

517. baloney. it's jerkyparent discrimination.

this is a free country and a business owner has every right to deny service to disruptive customers.

Any parent knows that if the baby flips in a restaurant, you take 'em out. We took our 2 gals, as babies and toddlers, all over the Caribbean, back when we had a decent income (yep: the Clinton years). We left restaurants a handful of times with each -- sometimes just to walk it off and others where we had to ask for dinner to be wrapped to go.

If you want them to run wild you go to Chucky Cheese.

[Better Believe It]

529. Todlers? Frequently it's early grade school age children. I'd eat at that restaurant.

[miscsoc]

531. I don't think anyone's suggesting toddlers are responsible for screaming

Just that it's reasonable for there to be restaurants where you know you'll get some peace and be surrounded by well behaved adults. It's not as if parents are an oppressed minority who won't be able to just, like, go somewhere else. Most people are parents at some point after all.

It may be age discrimination but it's a pretty reasonable form of age discrimination.

[michreject]

194. I'd eat there so much

that other diners would see the line outside and start the same policy at their place

[Lucky Luciano]

214. Got my business too. I am not a fanof screaming in the middle if a nice meal.

Many restaurants in NYC don't allow kids at all for that matter and they would not fit in anyway.

[cartach]

327. If they're on a leash it's OK. EOM

[Cosmocat]

2. LOL ...

My family wouldn't last a minute in that place ...

An interesting way to go ... Bring the hooligans to the restraunt, let nature take its course, and have the proprietors ask you to leave ... And don't ... Force them to call the police to try to enforce it ...

Might be worth the road trip for entertainment purposes ...

[Luminous Animal]

5. You let your kids scream in a restaurant?

[tammywammy]

6. So you let your children scream in a restaurant?

WTF? Teach them some damn manners or go to Chuck E Cheese where that's considered acceptable behavior.

[hlthe2b]

10. Acceptable at Chuck E Cheese?

Geebus, you'd have to pay me combat pay to go in there, much less work there.

[tammywammy]

14. Louder children are acceptable at Chuck E Cheese

or Peter Piper Pizza, etc. They're not at other places, including the restaurant in the OP.

[msanthrope]

78. Chuck E. Cheese is an identifiable Circle of Hell in Dante's Inferno.

I've long insisted upon this fact.

Wal-Mart is another.

[LostinVA]

103. My father refused to back to CEC after the first time he went

With my niece and nephew and mother. So, i would always go with my Mom when the kids visited. There is a reason why CEC serves alcohol.

[cartach]

328. Good idea

give the kid a few drinks one after the other and they'll pass out.

[Recursion]

399. Robot vermin... talking... so creepy

They seriously gave me nightmares as a kid.

What kind of restaurant makes vermin its mascot?

[Regret My New Name]

342. It's where a kid can be a kid.

Isn't that the slogan, or at least once was?

[TexasObserver]

360. Our kids loved Chuck E Cheese and we went all the time for years.

BECAUSE a kid can be a kid!

There were other places, too - all very kid friendly.

Kids can be expected to behave in less kid friendly restaurants by age five or six, however, but the expectation has to be there, and that starts with mom and dad being willing to enforce behavior standards for their children. The parent who shrugs and says "but they're kids" is seldom doing that.

And when mom and dad go out without the kids, you know what they don't want to hear at dinner? Someone else's kids misbehaving.

[Kalyke]

81. Do you let your cat piss in a box?

Because that's as normal as a toddler screaming.

Call me when you can actually use mind-control to get a toddler to stop screaming when they're all hyped up about something. :eyes:

[superduperfarleft]

96. Instead of mind-control, I hear there's this thing these days called "parenting." n/t

[customerserviceguy]

292. Well said!

But it seems to be a lost art these days, kids are expected to 'be themselves' by lazy parental units.

[tammywammy]

136. Instead of "mind control" it's called getting your screaming uncontrollable child out of the

restaurant/store/public. Why should anyone have to listen to your screaming child?

[grace0418]

187. You can't stop a toddler from acting out. They're not the adult in the situation, the parents are.

That is why the parents have to take the child out of the situation.

That's what parents sign up for when they have kids. They either don't go out to eat for a few years, get a baby-sitter, or accept the fact that their meal may be interrupted or cut short if the child misbehaves. Other diners shouldn't have to deal with that just because you want to eat out.

[WolverineDG]

188. Don't want to act like an adult & take an uncontrollable child outside?

Then don't have kids.

I just love the attitude that I have to put up with screaming, out of control children because "kids will be kids." Because if that's the case, then PARENTS must be PARENTS and take their wild offspring outside to calm down or go home.

dg

[Lydia Leftcoast]

267. News flash: It's not to stop them from screaming--it's to remove them from the

premises until they stop screaming.

That's what CONSIDERATE parents do.

Kids have melt downs. It's how the parents react that makes all the difference.

[quakerboy]

289. Theoretically

There is nothing particularly natural about a cat peeing in a box. Or so I assume, having seen very few spontaneously ocuccuring plastic litter boxes in the portions of nature that I have visited over the course of my life.

I suppose it is possible that they do happen, perhaps on one of the several continents that I have not yet visited, but I have yet to see any National geographic special which even tangentially mentioned the topic, which leads me to doubt that it occurs.

[blueamy66]

300. Do you take your cat to a restaurant

and let him or her piss there?

[Regret My New Name]

343. Gotta go to Chuck E. Cheese's to do that.

[LostinVA]

371. My cats would LOVE Whack-A-Mole

[TexasObserver]

470. I always enjoyed taking the kids there.

And I enjoyed playing some of the games, too.

The King of the Hill episode where Hank gets high on paint fumes and imagines he's in a whack a mole game with Bobby and Tom Landry is a classic.

As a parent, I found it comforting to have the kids at a place where they could scream and run around and be crazy.

[liberalhistorian]

427. Oh, my, the images that

conjures up!!!!

[uncommon]

423. It's not normal for a child to be screaming in pubic -

maybe for a moment, and you take them outside and deal with it. Beyond that, you have a behavior problem that needs to be dealt with sooner than later.

[DeschutesRiver]

538. Someone taught the cat to piss in the box. While you are teaching a kid to not scream at will,

you can choose to stay away from venues where nonstop screaming is clearly disturbing others. Kind of like not taking a cat who isn't housebroken to stay with you in a nice hotel that otherwise takes animals. Oh, that's right - the hotel would bill you for the damages incurred. I think restaurants need do something similar - maybe offer huge discounts to others whose evenings are screwed up by listening to this crap. Esp. to those who left their screamer home with a sitter, to have a nice peaceful evening away from parental responsibilities.

And I think people need to do their part to make sure a restaurant knows how they feel about allowing such things to go on.

[Sherman A1]

334. +1000

I have been out with my wife's family at local restaurants and they simply let the little ones go, running and screaming. I vowed to never - ever go out with them again and it's been a couple of years since I have.

[MineralMan]

20. Really? You're proud of your screaming kids in public places?

Unreal.

[tammywammy]

22. Agreed

Basically it's "they're my children and by god I'll let them do what they want! And how dare you try to tell me that screaming in public is unacceptable."

:eyes:

[msanthrope]

52. Some parents are just damn lazy. n/t

[MineralMan]

55. Sometimes I wonder if they've just gone deaf.

I wonder this especially in the supermarket, where screaming kids are the norm during the daytime hours. It's incredible. I turned into an aisle on my last trip and there was a woman with three children under 5 years of age. All three were shrieking at the top of their lungs, while mom just browsed the shelves. I backed my cart out of the aisle and went to a distant aisle to resume shopping. That caused me to interrupt my shopping routine and I forgot to go back and get the bread on that aisle, so I had to make another trip. Uff da!

[Dappleganger]

57. Some parents are also very tired and had extremely poor role models.

It's easier to spout off at them, but we do ourselves all a favor as society if we also offer loving encouragement along with those limits.

But yes, there are some parents who really don't give a damn and more interested in who they're talking with on the cell phone than anything else.

[LostinVA]

59. hahaha -- know what "loving encouragement" will get you?

Having said parent(s) get pissed at YOU. And, if you are an employee of the business, try to get you fired. I've worked public service for too long. People do NOT appreciate you implying in even the sweetest, nicest way that their kid is being a bit much.

[geardaddy]

160. Bingo.

[catrose]

287. Right.

I was having lunch with a friend and her 3 year old at Friendly's. The toddler was next to me, and he kept hitting the elderly ladies in the next booth. After waiting for his mother to do something, I said pleasantly, "Jason, let's not hit people." Jason tears up. His victims say, "Oh, that's okay. We don't mind." WTF? His mother says, "There, there, Jason, Catrose is sorry." WTF? Never, never again.

[Maru Kitteh]

573. Good lord. I would NEVER go anywhere with that person again. Kids in tow or not.

It sucks when you suddenly find out your friend is a selfish, inconsiderate asshole.

[WolverineDG]

197. I will put up with a lot

especially on planes when children scream because their ears won't pressurize. That's happened to me & it fucking hurts! But I draw the line at children acting like wild animals just because Mommy & Daddy are "too tired."

dg

[quakerboy]

291. I would classify this as

precisely your "loving encouragement". Doing things for the benefit of others is not always sickly sweet. Better that a parent who doesn't know better be told that it is unacceptable than that it be tolerated and never questioned.

[msanthrope]

60. I think in the case you've described, the Mom had just given up.

Too many parents do that--I've heard it justified with "Oh, I don't want to give him negative attention." or "Ignore him and he will stop."

Usually, it's a kid who just wants some constructive attention, and most children will respond positively to an engaged parent.

I learned, very quickly, with my autistic daughter to either shop when I didn't have her with me, OR, have a PLAN for grocery shopping that kept her actively engaged. I know I sounded like a friggin' idiot teaching her the names of all the fruits, veggies, and cans, but she LIKED food shopping, and she behaved.

[WolverineDG]

193. Lucky you

I do that, & they follow me. :grr:

dg

[SmileyRose]

252. snort

laughed so hard I startled the cat. LOL

[Warren DeMontague]

448. Did it ever occur to you that the mom w/ the 3 kids didn't want to be there any more

than you wanted her to be?

Sometimes, you have to go shopping. Sometimes, kids scream. Sometimes, you can't avoid mixing the two.

Let's put it this way- a lot of times, getting 3 kids to the store is like orchestrating a moon launch in the first place. She was there. She probably didn't have the option of going "oh, I'll just come back later". She's gonna take them out of the store, navigate the parking lot back to the car, get them all in their car seats, maybe deal with some diapers, then what? Come back in an hour?

Or maybe she was supposed to leave them at home by themselves? Or get that child care that is always readily available and cheap, if not free. Right?

All this, so you don't forget your bread? It's a supermarket, not the symphony. Say "excuse me", smile sympathetically, get your bread, and get out of there. Believe me, she's got it tougher than you do.

[dionysus]

450. you know, little kids screaming in a restaurant reminds me of a sizeable portion of DU!

;)

[jdlh8894]

21. If they ask/tell you to leave their property

and you don't,then you are trespassing and CAN be arrested.

[pipoman]

40. They wouldn't have to try, they could enforce it...

most states allow for businesses to choose not to serve someone for any reason they wish. If they called the police and said they want you to leave, you will leave one way or the other. If there is recourse, it is usually up to someone to bring a civil suit.

[superduperfarleft]

44. If the owner asked you to leave for causing a disturbance, and you didn't,

you'd probably be arrested for trespassing, and rightfully so.

"My family wouldn't last a minute in that place ..."

That's nice that you seem to actually be proud that your kids are out of control.

[Cosmocat]

108. LOL ...

"Proud." Good to see so many people seem to have mystical powers of being able to asertain feelings via the internet ... And, able to ascertain the totality of someone's parenting skills, too ... AND, how "lazy" they are as parents, too ...

Pretty wide miss on all accounts ...

[Hello_Kitty]

113. Your sense of entitlement is pretty obvious. eom

[superduperfarleft]

114. So maybe you should, you know, actually respond in the subthread.

You posted something pretty vague, people took you at your word, and now you're pissed off? It's not our fault you seem unable to communicate properly.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

269. Some people DO seem to be proud that their children are out of control

On a travel website, there was a question from a prospective visitor to Japan who wanted to know if it was OK to stay in a traditional Japanese inn because "my children are loud."

From watching my relatives, my observation has been that parents who can't get a two-year-old to behave in public of the time will end up with horrible teenagers.

[Posteritatis]

53. Let us know if you do so I can cheer your family's entirely justified arrest, k? (nt)

[Bitwit1234]

65. That's stupid. If you had grown ups who were distrubing the

peace they would be asked to leave. Kids out of control and screaming should either be brought under control by their parents or have their money refunded and asked to leave. You can not discriminate. If you ask one group to behave them selves or leave you have to ask the other. Parents allow their kids to do what they please in some instances because they don't want to fool with them.

[DainBramaged]

107. And your business anywhere would not be welcome

Why is it 'your' hooligans have a right to disrupt the public calm?

[PADemD]

115. The next time your family goes out to eat

Try telling your children beforehand:

We are going to eat in a restaurant with other people. There will be no running in the aisles, loud talking, or screaming. You will sit in your seat and eat quietly.

It worked with our children. If they were not able to do this, we didn't eat out.

[MineralMan]

123. Bingo. That's what my parents did with their three children.

It was a rare treat to go to a sit-down restaurant. We behaved. We knew that if we didn't we wouldn't be getting that treat again soon. My parents told us what they expected from our behavior, and we did what they told us. In other situations, we were allowed to be free-range children, but not ever in a public place where we might disturb others. We knew the difference from the time we could begin to talk.

[barbtries]

336. that's exactly what i did.

on the way in to the restaurant, "there will be no screaming, no hitting, no throwing, no kicking, no dancing in your seats. got it?" they got it.
i do recall leaving terrible cracker messes on the floor under the high chair though. oh well.

[joshcryer]

445. Exactly! And because eating out was a once or twice a month thing for us...

...you know damn well we behaved like damn little angels. We always got compliments for how well behaved we were, and I'm talking at a very young age here. One tantrum and we don't go out to eat again for a whole month!

[kiranon]

458. And if the child has a disability, should they be unseen and unheard?

I can recognize an autistic child's scream across a room, market, restaurant. It just is and not because the parents are lazy. Perhaps everyone just feels more comfortable if those who are different not frequent their space but we are all different. Beware what you wish for. Are we going to ban the elderly who may drool a bit, talk a little too loudly, make a few unwanted noises?

[PADemD]

493. Didn't Helen Keller learn to fold her napkin?

[kiranon]

541. Yes and it takes a lot of hard work , effort and great teachers

to get there. I know. I have 2 autistic children. We are all works in progress. Children need to eat even when they have not yet reached "perfection". My children do not yet know about folded napkins but they are now quiet in a restaurant after years spent teaching them how to go to a restaurant. We went in off hours and only to places that did not mind their presence. But adults with loud voices and cell phones are more of a bother to me than a crying child. Everyone has their own level of tolerance for noise. But, we were all children once. We all bothered someone sometime out in pubic and needed their understanding.

[DWilliamsamh]

587. If the child in question is prone to hysteria? Then get a sitter.

YES there are places and situations wehre people shouldn't have to deal with disturbances and screaming. Why is that such a hard concept for some people?

[DeschutesRiver]

169. We had a family here as guests that did the same thing.

Let their children scream the whole time. Even though I'd asked them to please hold it down, as my dog was recovering from a surgery for a cancerous tumor and needed quiet. The kids insisted on running through the house, screaming, knocking things down, throwing stuff, etc., despite the fact that we live in the country and there was gobs of stuff to do outdoors. Went on like that from the time they arrived mid day, until late the following day when they left.

They will never be asked back. We had done some minor business with the guy in the past and was about to do some major business in the near future, but that won't happen now. It was all take and no give or consideration on their part. I am not even returning phone calls. I'd simply never seen anything like the storm that descended here - I was that kind of kid when I was young, but my working class parents never inflicted me and my brother upon other people behaving like this.

It is good for me to hear the other side of the story, though - now I don't feel a bit bad for culling them from our lives as quickly and completely as I have done. I showed horses for over a decade, and was around literally hundreds of children, from babies to 4-6 year olds and up. And never had a bad moment with their high need for activity. They were little speed demons, but well behaved probably 90% of the time. Loved being around them, loved their zest and curiousity. But they had real activities to burn off their energy, and someone raised them by constantly steering them toward good behavior. Not by enjoying being entertained by their bad behavior and the reactions of others. There were maybe two families in all those years who didn't know how to parent and let their wild childs run loose without a shred of parental influence or guidance. They were the exception, not the rule.

The guests we had with the screamers were just birth givers, not parents. I saw not one example of them attempting to exert any influence on their wild childs' behaviors. The mother told me that even her own mother refused to babysit for them. Lifelong habits are being reinforced, and if that is how some people want to raise their kids, fine by me.

But it won't be around me. There are some really neat kids out there, who get overlooked by the constant demands of the poorly behaved ones. Those are the ones that I will spend time around instead. They have a future.

[Abq_Sarah]

224. Will you be screaming as well?

You know, to set the "example" for your kids?

[Chulanowa]

306. And the police certainly would

After refusing to leave after being asked by the proprietor after violating their posted rules, you are trespassing.

[whathehell]

350. I bet you make a lot of friends that way, lol.

[DWilliamsamh]

438. Well aren't you special. It's no wonder your kids are the type most people can't stand to see commi

[joshcryer]

443. The police would remove you in quick order if you're being disorderly.

I assure you.

[hlthe2b]

3. I think a sound-proofed children's section would be preferable

though I appreciate the concern for other patrons. I don't want to see families restricted from going out, but it certainly does seem there are more unruly children whose parents can't (or won't) correct. I know that my Mom jerked my sister and I out of any store or restaurant at the first semblance of a temper tantrum. That does not seem to be the case for many parents now.

[tammywammy]

9. So your mom basically acted like a parent.

That's all this place is saying, take your child outside until they're calm enough to return inside.

[hlthe2b]

13. Exactly... I'm not criticizing the restaurant...

Kudos for making an attempt. I just think there might be less combative alternatives.

[tammywammy]

18. While the sign could sound nicer

I think they're just stating what should be considered obvious. :)

[Kalyke]

84. And if you're asked to leave before you can run outside...?

What then?

Sometimes a young child screeches without a moment's notice.

[hlthe2b]

93. the restaurant indicated they would ask you to take the child outside

and try to calm them. Seems a sensible response to me. I've seen nothing that suggests they would simply make you leave without giving you a chance to calm the child--including a story done on the restaurant on MSNBC. They simply expect parents to do the responsible thing and take the child outside to do so.

[tammywammy]

147. You know, I've never seen anyone ask the parent of a screaming child to leave the second it started

But when the child starts screaming, you should make an attempt to quiet them and then start heading to the door. The restaurant is only ask that you quiet your child outside, which is a reasonable thing to ask on behalf of ALL the other customers in there.

[LostinVA]

161. I think most people are understanding

Especially if they see the parents trying.

[tammywammy]

165. Agreed n/t

[WolverineDG]

202. Yup & in fact I start to feel sorry for the parent if the kid keeps acting up

but parents who sit there & do nothing, not so much.

dg

[LostinVA]

206. Oh, definitely

[bluestateguy]

4. That's a place I'll have to go eat next time I am in North Carolina

Sounds like a nice peaceful place to go enjoy a meal.

[hlthe2b]

7. I wonder if they deal similarly with unruly teens (or adults)

Frankly, overhearing loudmouths yapping on their cell phones is every bit as obnoxious as screaming kids.

[tammywammy]

12. I would hope so as well! n/t

[eilen]

400. I never see a teenager yapping on the phone

They are quiet as church mice texting faster than I can blink. It is the adults who don't understand there is highly sensitive receiving microphone on their cell that Loud Talk so everyone in a 3 block radius can hear their one-sided conversation.
I work in a hospital and some jerk, who left his family member's room stood outside another patients room and loudly talked for over 30 minutes. The patient in the room he was outside of -- was not interested in his conversation. In fact, he had been transferred from another hospital and was facing open heart surgery to remove a possible cancerous mass that had been found on CT scan. He was hoping to get some rest as his day had been emotionally overwhelming.

[LostinVA]

417. That's a good point about teenagers

They text.

[SidDithers]

99. +1...

We've vacationed in Oak Island a couple of times. Will have to try Olde Salty next time we go to NC.

Sid

[uncommon]

8. Good. If my daughter were screaming in a restaurant, I would remove her from it.

[Pab Sungenis]

11. Tempted to drive down to North Carolina just to eat there.

Never been to North Carolina, either. Might prove interesting.

[LostinVA]

26. That's a nice area -- south of Wilmington

Where I used to live. the NC Aquarium is there -- excellent. Close to Myrtle Beach. The water is warmish year round, and the best surfing on the East Coast is between OBX and the Carolina Beach area.

[SidDithers]

102. It's a nice drive along the coast...

last time we went to Oak Island, we drove through Carolina Beach and took the ferry over to Southport.

One of my favourite places in the US.

Sid

[LostinVA]

148. Southport is soooooo nice

I also think Carolina Beach is nicer than some posters think. It's fine, and quite a few celebrities have lived there, it's just not as "classy" as Wilmington or Southport. Or wrightsville or Topsail. The Shallote/News Brunswick area has grown so much since I lived there.

[LostinVA]

27. That's a nice area -- south of Wilmington

Where I used to live. the NC Aquarium is there -- excellent. Close to Myrtle Beach. The water is warmish year round, and the best surfing on the East Coast is between OBX and the Carolina Beach area.

[sinkingfeeling]

15. I'd eat there as well.

[MineralMan]

16. Beware! This could turn into the equivalent of my

screaming children on airplanes thread. That one turned into a horrible flamewar. I haven't recovered from the scarring after almost an entire year.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x6895946

:scared:

[DevonRex]

37. How did I miss that thread?

I must have been taking a DU break.

[dionysus]

453. wadsworth taught me at a young age not to run around the restaurant wielding my croquet mallet.

he tanned my hide something fierce.

:hi:

[hlthe2b]

67. Well, a bit different situation...

Unless they approve to move the kids out on the wings... :evilgrin: then parents will have to travel with them and we are going to have to put up with it. Restaurants, however so allow for immediate (nonlethal) REMOVAL.

[Raineyb]

109. The thread it was spun from was worse.

Someone discussed changing a child's dirty diaper on the cabin area and had the nerve to think people were being prissy for objecting to such disgusting behavior.

[hlthe2b]

171. EwWW...

Really?

This "entitlement" attitude of some--- I surely hope it doesn't spread...:eyes:

[Raineyb]

229. Oh yeah. It was one of the most disgusting things I'd ever heard.

And what was worse, people were accused of having their noses too high in the air for objecting. Apparently, one should expect someone to handle diapers and expose everyone to shit and piss in order to save a parent a trip to the restroom while on an airplane.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=6902580

[hlthe2b]

232. MY GOD!

and there were people on that threat pushing the concept of diaper changing in the cabin while seated on planes as acceptable that I had always thought were "good eggs" (or at least rational thinkers).

I am absolutely shocked at the attitudes of a hand-full on that thread. That they could not/would not accept the fact that this is a horrendous public health hazard absolutely slays me. They may get a rude shock if they do that again, because I believe that public health laws would allow for them to be prosecuted, depending on the country or specific locale. At a minimum they could face incredible civil liability, in the event of an enteric outbreak (and norovirus could readily be spread that way).

[Codeine]

239. That was truly one of DU's legendary threads. nt

[superduperfarleft]

358. Ah, the memories. Great thread.

"I don't fly with you" even made an appearance.

[WolverineDG]

203. oh you mean the thread where the "mom" admitted to starving her kid

not letting him nap, then did NOTHING while he screamed all through boarding & wouldn't stop screaming so they could do the safety announcements? Yeah, I was so with the airline on that one.

dg

[customerserviceguy]

293. Yeah, I got assailed on that thread

or one like the one you're describing. The "natural parenting" advocates insist on the right to inflict their little darlings on everybody else.

At least I can leave a restaurant if it sucks because somebody mistook it for McDonalds, can't do that on a cross-country airplane flight.

[Number23]

338. "I haven't recovered from the scarring after almost an entire year."

Good! :)

[Rowdyboy]

17. Headed to NC next week...hope we'll be close enough to stop and get lunch....

Children are one thing but out of control screaming children are quite another. I helped raise 4 younger siblings and they knew there were consequences to misbehaving in public. Too bad some parents today are too spineless to discipline their brood.

[Historic NY]

19. A local church had a crying room...kids are going to act up but parents..

should repsect the other patrons by taking them out of the establishment to calm them down.

[Amerigo Vespucci]

24. My church has a crying room, but...

...there are parents who sit in the main church and let their kids scream and cry non-stop. I don't know if they are unaware of the room or simply don't care.

There has been only one time I remember in all the time I've been going there in which the priest stopped the service and very kindly and respectfully asked the parents to either take the kids outside or to the crying room.

It's not the idea that anyone wants to infringe on the rights of a two-year-old to scream and wail. It's the idea that the other 200 people in the room have to hear it, rather than the service they've attended.

Regarding restaurants, I generally exercise my rights by not spending money in restaurants that allow screaming kids. In a restaurant, you pay for a meal as well as an experience. At the McDonald's end of the scale, I'd expect screaming kids. I never go into a place like that for a "sit-down" meal, so who cares. But if I'm paying for a $20 entree, I'm not going to sit and eat it in a day care center.

[Dappleganger]

32. This happened at an awards ceremony last school year...

at our teens' school. A family brought a three year old and the kid acted up the entire time: crying, squealing, and at one time screaming. Dad took him out twice to the lobby for a minute or two, to no avail. Dh and I kept giving them dirty looks but they never left.

Goddammit, my kid worked hard to earn those awards and spent many years in the school system. Why can't people get sitter for just a couple of hours??

[Kalyke]

86. Maybe they couldn't afford it.

God, DUers are nearly as judgmental as Republicans these days.

And I'd give you a dirty look right back.

Kids sometimes scream and do it without a moment's notice and sometimes for no reason at all. If you're asked to leave a public place before you even have an opportunity to address the situation (i.e. take the child outside or to the lobby to calm him/her down), then you're child is effectively being discriminated against because he/she is not old enough to know how to reason and act appropriately.

Look... I'm all for taking the child somewhere to calm him/her down - and have done that very thing - but to make a blanket statement that I should either shell out money I don't have to get a sitter or to never be allowed in a restaurant on the off-chance my 3-year-old decides to let out a scream and I won't be able to hustle her out to calm her down before my family is asked to leave is a bit much.

[Dappleganger]

129. We live in a very nice area...

I knew that family too, and believe me they could have afforded it.

You can give me all the dirty looks you want sweetheart, but it's not my kids who are misbehaving. Yes kids scream w/out notice but take them out and if they won't stop, just leave. There were two parents taking care of that child, plus a couple of relatives and not one of them could step outside w/the toddler and let him run on the grass until the award ceremony was over? Puleez!

BTW, you are making blanket statements as well. It goes both ways.

[RayOfHope]

340. Maybe they were in the sae situation I was once--had moved to a brand new town

I knew no one to sit, and even if I had we had no money for a sitter anyway. Our closest family was 4 hours away.

I'm sure this family's kiddo worked hard to earn his/her award also.

[Dappleganger]

351. Read my other post.

Not new to the area and extended family was sitting with them.

And no, just because their kid earned an award doesn't mean the sibling has the right to scream throughout the ceremony and ruin it for everyone else's family.

[catrose]

630. Happened at church at a minister's installation

I was playing the music. The minister's grandchildren began banging on the metal chairs--not quite in time, of course. During her speech about how much this means to me/what a solemn wonderful occasion, another child (about 5) ran up to the podium and began dancing around her. I stood up and took him by the hand to lead him back to his mother, sitting in the back row. He threw himself on the floor and rolled around. A lady (a guest in church) on the front row picked him up and murmured sweet things while he squirmed angrily. Mother just sat on the back row with her mouth open in astonishment. How could anyone object to her darling wrecking the service?

I asked my stepdaughter to arrange for someone to corral the children during the reception. She didn't think there would be a problem. Not for her and her family anyway. They totally ignored the brats running around on the stage with the musicians. We took turns going to the bathroom and getting snacks--no sit-down meal for us. We couldn't leave the instruments. I asked her brother-in-law not to help his year-old son toddle across the stage. He said No, apparently not realizing that a toddler's foot through any of the instruments would bankrupt him.

When my best friend got married, I grilled her about kids. Her nieces would be totally under her mother's thumb, she said. She was right. But the groom's best friend talked all the way through the music. The louder I sang and played, the louder he talked to his girlfriend, despite glares from all around him. I didn't want to ruin my friend's day by stopping and asking him to shut up, but it was awful trying to play through that.

So I retired. If people think that live music is on the same level with TV or other recordings, let 'em have it.

[noamnety]

634. That's frustrating for me.

Sometimes we videotape student performances, and the students want to use the finished video for auditions with professional companies or colleges. If a parent keeps their screaming child in the theatre instead of walking out til they quiet down, they aren't just ruining the concentration of the performer and ruining it for everyone in the theatre, they're also ruining the permanent record/audition tape.

[CrispyQ]

181. "...I'm not going to sit and eat it in a day care center."

Well said!

[blueamy66]

304. AMEN.

This is why I have turned into an agressive woman in my 40+ years. I ain't putting up with anymore shit....especially parents who cannot contorl their screaming brats. If I have to hear a screaming kid, I will leave the restaurant...no questions asked.

But I love my nieces, nephews, great nieces and great nephews. :-)

[Warren DeMontague]

472. See, that's why I don't go to church.

Well, actually, that's not the reason, but I can add it to the list.

[Kolesar]

219. I was ordered to go to church and family behind me held a screaming kid up to my ear

As if church didn't suck enough.

[slackmaster]

23. I favor restaurants that don't allow anyone under 21 in, otherwise I sit at the bar

...where state law prohibits anyone under 21 from sitting.

[hlthe2b]

28. I've noticed that restaurants with outdoor seating areas....

frequently do not sit families outside (or else the families opt not to).... For whatever reason, that seems a good option.

[slackmaster]

35. There's a very nice place in my neigborhood that does just that

On the site of what used to be a dreary little beer and wine
bar called Snippy's, now stands The Station.  The new owners
razed the old building, acquired some open space next to the
old bar, and set up an outdoor dining area with child-friendly
amenities like sandboxes and things to climb on.

The interior of the new building has a large bar and some
adults-only booths.  The atmosphere, with a railroad theme in
keeping with the site's long-ago status as a trolley station,
provides a comfortable environment for drinking or dining.

The food is mediocre but inexpensive.  Drinks are good, the
staff is friendly.  The place has been very well received by
the neighborhood.  Lots of people bring their kids in, and the
bar area is pleasantly child-free for those who prefer being
that way.

Their Web site is simple as is their menu -
http://www.stationtavern.com/

Here's a Yelp review with some good information -
http://www.yelp.com/biz/station-tavern-and-burgers-san-diego#query:the%20station%20tavern

(posted in plain text because the Yelp link surely won't work
otherwise)

[Cid_B]

329. That's what I was thinking...

My parents visited recently for my wedding along with my sister and her 3 kids all under age 4 and under. The area we were in was very quiet and small and so we went out of our way to find a restaurant with outdoor seating that could accommodate the little ones. We appreciated them having a place to run and the guests and the management appreciated us keeping to ourselves. Little girls were confused when the owner offered some sweets in German but beyond that all went well.

Consideration for others goes a long ways and it make it easier for us as well.

[whathehell]

356. Another might be to have a separate, sound-proofed area in the restaurant

where all the parents and their screaming kids can sit.

That way they won't bother the rest of us.

[pipi_k]

30. And sometimes sitting in the bar section...

can be pretty similar to sitting in the main section with screaming kids...



:7

[slackmaster]

36. When that happens, I leave

You are absolutely right. I have no more tolerance for obnoxious adults than I do for screaming children.

[pipi_k]

25. Kid haters!!!!!!!!

not really.... ;)


Hey, I've had my kids, and I have grandkids now.


My kids never raised a big fuss out in public. My grandkids don't do it, either.



Parents who feel it's an imposition to take their kids outside until they calm down are, IMO, lazy, selfish bastards. Because that's really all the owner is asking for. Parents can have whatever kind of noise they want to in their own homes...they don't have the right to force others to listen to it in a public restaurant.

So anyway...YAY!!!

I would definitely be a regular customer of a place that posted such a sign and stuck to their rule.

:)

[hlthe2b]

31. Frankly, my dog is better behaved than many children...

I frequently eat in outdoor dining areas of restaurants, tie her beside me, but just outside the enclosure-- near enough that she could beg if she chose, but she just sits patiently and quietly. She has never barked nor bothered anyone. Parents can likewise teach their children to behave, if you ask me. (unless they are suggesting their child is less intelligent than my dog :evilgrin: )

[shrike]

419. Your dog sounds like our dog

Even when she was a puppy we were able to teach what was allowed and what was not. We could take her INDOORS at a restaurant and she wouldn't be a problem.

Someone once told me, "If you want to train a dog, you've got to be smarter than the dog." Maybe same thing goes for kids, eh?

[TorchTheWitch]

619. No, you have to be AS smart as a dog

Dogs never, ever, ever, ever permit bad behavior from the moment their babies are born. By the time mommy dog takes the youngsters out of the den to meet the rest of the pack they've long since already learned that Mom is to be obeyed at all times without question, and she absolutely will discipline you the very second you start to do something she doesn't approve of.

So, no, you don't need to be smarter than the dog, you need to be AS smart as a dog and train your dog the same way a dog would... never, ever, ever, ever accepting bad behavior and demanding appropriate behavior in a way that the dog can understand (in other words, demanding appropriate behavior the way a dog would).

Animals do a FAR better job at parenting than humans, yet humans are supposed to be so much more intelligent.

[Amerigo Vespucci]

34. Sometimes parents don't even turn their head in the direction of the screaming kid

I don't think "most" people expect to live in a vacuum (although I'm only in a position to speak for myself, not "most people")...

...so while my first choice is to always enjoy a meal in a restaurant with no kid noise at all...none...it may not be realistic to expect that 100% of the time.

But by the same token, I've seen parents sit with their kids and not even look in the kid's direction as they scream and howl and throw tantrums and such. I don;t think there's any defense for that other then the fact that they simply don't give a crap about ruining the experience for everyone else in the restaurant.

[Dappleganger]

42. There's really no defense for inaction.

I have a friend with a Down's syndrome son (he's 14 now), and even she was able to teach him to not whine and cry in restaurants. It took more proaction and patience on her part, but she stuck with it and prevailed.

I recall seeing kids acting up as we were eating, and our four would stare at them and then look back at us shaking their heads, wondering what was wrong with those kids? Now if you give parents a nasty look they will say something back and place blame on everyone else.

[Liberal_in_LA]

83. yup. Some parents register no reaction to the kid's tantrum. I understand

sometimes the ignoring reaction is a discipline tactic but consideration for others should
override the 'tough love' tactic.

[Dappleganger]

29. As a parent of four...

I agree with this rule wholeheartedly.

A business has the right to decide what kind of place they want to be. If your child is a screamer, stick to places which cater to children. A parent does not have the god-given right to inflict their noisy children upon everyone else.

[grace0418]

405. Amen and good for you!

Sounds like you are a great parent.

[ecstatic]

33. My 19 month old nephew loves to let out ear piercing screams

so loud that everyone looks around shocked (some people even cover their ears). He LOVES the reaction he gets out of complete strangers and his mom when he does that. I don't think there's a way to control it--it's just a phase that he should grow out of soon.

[Dappleganger]

38. Yes there is.

But he has figured out that everyone reacts crazily and gives him a lot of attention whenever he does it and it works for him.

Will he outgrow it? Probably, but then it will turn probably turn into whining and crying to get his way. Whenever we had problems with a toddler who tried this we 1) left the restaurant or store immediately (no doggie bag) and 2) isolated the child with no input--no books, no lovies, no parental attention but he had to sit on his bed or sit in his car seat. It was always for a brief period of time under my watchful eye. I even had to do this once with extended family inside the restaurant, little guy in his carseat and me standing right outside his window. He learned very quickly that certain places required certain kinds of behavior with no crying or whining. We never hit our kids and this "little guy" is now a 6'4" senior with amazing manners and a kind liberal heart. :)

[ClassWarrior]

45. Thank you. Parents must assume ACTIVE responsibility for their children...

...and find ways to deal with bad behavior. It's possible. And you're proof.

NGU.

[msanthrope]

54. exactly right--ACTIVE parenting. Especially in social situations.

I think part of the problem is that some parents assume that because they are out at a restaurant with their kids, it's fun and party time. No. It's teaching and learning time. Kids need to see appropriate social modeling, not Mom and Dad out on a quasi-date.

[ClassWarrior]

68. When you're a parent, ALL the time is teaching and learning time. Period.

NGU.

[Kolesar]

211. And when you're child-free, it's PARTY all the time...eom

[hlthe2b]

51. That is EXACTLY what you do...

Remove the child from the "positive reinforcement" immediately and put them in a totally isolated (though controlled) situation. It doesn't take many instances for that lesson to be learned and INGRAINED.

[gkhouston]

177. Sometimes very few. Years ago, we took our daughter out to brunch at a

nice hotel restaurant. She started to balk and fuss as I was putting her in the high chair. I said, "Nope, we're not having this," and put her back in the stroller and took her for a walk while Dad had a nice breakfast. Later, I had a nice breakfast while Dad took stroller duty. She got dry Cheerios (we always had Cheerios with us in those days) and juice--food, but not the French toast she'd been wanting. It was years before I had to take her out of a restaurant again.

[msanthrope]

43. Yes, actually, there is a way to control it.

You remove him. You take away his favorite toy, or whatever he is playing with.

You tell him, calmly, but forcefully, "No Screaming." You maintain a negative face, and repeat it a few times.

Then you do that, every single time he does it. Calmly, firmly.

Practice it one day at the grocery store, or Wal-Mart. Every time he screams, you leave the store, and take his favorite toy away. Do it enough times, he'll get it.

[LostinVA]

61. And you don't take LITTLE kids to non-little kids' restaurants

I mean, you just don't. It also isn't fair to the child if you do that.

[msanthrope]

66. True--the parents have to choose venues their children can succeed in.

When my daughter was younger, we went to kid restaurants, and diners until she had a baseline of acceptable behavior.

When we visited our beach house, (in a town with no 'kid-friendly' restaurants) we went out to eat at 5:30-6:00, to avoid couples and others who, rightfully, expect that when they go out to dinner at 9, it be a pleasant experience.

Now, at 7, my daughter can handle 'adult' restaurants. We try not to push her limits, but it nice to know that if a family party runs late, she won't be the kid having a meltdown.

[Dappleganger]

131. Does she have problems with sensory overload?

My nephew also does better when they take him out during non-busy hours, it seems. He doesn't cry and whine now that he's 12, but he will say socially unacceptable things in a very loud voice, LOL. Keeping the crowd and excitement exposure to a minimum seems to help.

[Kalyke]

87. What are "non-little kids restaurants?"

You mean parents have to constantly be subjected to cardboard pizzas and fat-enfused burgers when they eat?

I see NOTHING wrong with taking a little kid to a Ruby Tuesday's or an O'Charly's or the like.

Hell, in Europe, little kids go to the PUB with their parents because the local pub usually serves dinner, as well as beer.

[superduperfarleft]

97. If you can't control your kid, yes, you should continue to subject yourself to cardboard pizzas.

At least until the child is old enough to not cause a disturbance out in public.

Nobody ever said parenting was easy.

[LostinVA]

100. Sorry, if I'm going to a nice restaurant for dinner, I don't want screaming

Or running around, or whatever.

I don't consider chain restarts like you mentioned nice restaurants. Those are family restaurants.

Yeah, and in Europe, I've never seen kids act the way they do in restaurants here, in neither the UK or Germany. Or Canada or Mexico, for that matter.

[Missy Vixen]

124. Anywhere with a tablecloth and a wine list

The others paying for their meal deserve to enjoy a nice experience. Why do you believe your wants and needs are more important than theirs?

If I'm in a place with a kiddie menu and high chairs, I'm either eating in the bar, or it's up to me to deal with what's happening. I knew there would be kids when I walked through the doors, and some of them would be ill-behaved. If we're at the local (very pricey) steakhouse for DH's birthday dinner and a five-year-old is running around screaming, I'm not only saying something to the server, I'm having a bit of a chat with the management on my way out.

Parents in Europe may bring their kids to the pub, but it's hard to believe that the others there would allow any child to scream and carry on without saying something to the parents in question.

[Warren DeMontague]

646. You think "Olde Salty"- where they post notices on 8.5 x 11 paper w/scotch tape

is a tablecloth-and-wine list establishment?



Just curious.

[msanthrope]

125. Yes--parents SHOULD subject themselves to the rules of common decency.

If your kid can only handle joints with cardboard pizza, that's what you are eating.

Perhaps this will motivate you to parent better, that you may be welcome at a better-class establishment.

FYI--in Europe, children in public do not behave like some American children do. It simply isn't allowed.

[Dappleganger]

133. If your child is screaming, running around and causing trouble...

I don't think you should force that upon anyone outside of your own family for mealtimes or events.

[slackmaster]

215. I'm thinking The Stinking Rose in San Francisco, or any place that specializes in broccoli dishes

http://www.thestinkingrose.com/

[sinkingfeeling]

382. Love that place, but haven't been to SF in a decade.

[slackmaster]

403. I grew so much garlic this year, my own cuisine has taken on its character

My house smells of the stuff all the time.

[Lucky Luciano]

230. Ruby Tuesday is def a family restaurant.

Morimoto - not so much.

[Codeine]

237. Have you ever watched European children in a restaurant?

They do not behave like American children.

[Warren DeMontague]

488. That's because they're all drunk.

Seriously, this is a ridiculous talking point. Kids are kids. If people don't want to be subjected to little kids in public, move somewhere where the property values make it almost impossible for working families to buy a house. Like Northern California. I can give anyone who is interested a very detailed list of some places where you almost NEVER see children.

[Leftist Agitator]

245. "parents have to constantly be subjected to...fat-enfused burgers when they eat?"

"fat-enfused burgers"

"Ruby Tuesday's"




And the word is spelled "infused", not "enfused".

[LostinVA]

268. rofl

[grace0418]

392. "Parents...subjected to cardboard pizzas and fat-enfused burgers when they eat?"

Well, there's always the option of staying home and cooking a nice meal. There's also the option of hiring a baby-sitter. Or you can take the kid to a restaurant and be prepared to take your meal to go if he or she has a meltdown and won't stop. But yeah, my feeling is that's one of the things you sign up for when you have a child, a few years of not eating out very often. It's not forever, and certainly there are trade-offs because you have a wonderful amazing child to love, so it sure seems worth the sacrifice.

[joshcryer]

436. Excellent advice.

I am shocked that I am seeing proper parenting advice here.

[msanthrope]

494. Oh, us 'proper parents' pop up from time to time.....n/t

[izquierdista]

70. Water him

A squirt gun will do wonders.

[jdlh8894]

85. Oh,HELL NO!!!!!

Then they want the squirt gun! Then all hell breaks loose!

[ecstatic]

98. Exactly!!! nt

[LynneSin]

101. The I hope the mother thinks twice before taking him out to a restaurant

I'm guessing it's really cutsy for her to see this child scream at the top of his lungs but for the rest of us it's just plain annoying. And there is a way to control it - dine at home or at child-centric restaurants (like Chuck E Cheese) until the child learns to control this behavior.

[era veteran]

118. I run an iconic restaurant that has two regular autistic

kids as customers. Professionals in our business make everyone welcome. We do sit them in a place where they are not in the middle of everything and we get one of the kids a breadstick the second they hit the door. I feel sorry for families with an autistic child and try to make them feel welcome. Important also to pay attention to the families other kids as they are never the center of attention. Now, parents of unruly children are different I will go directly to their table and ask them to control their child. Hint , when a baby starts crying, after about 30 seconds and the infant hasn't stopped get up and walk your baby around. Do not visit shrieking on the rest of the house. I take running around kids to their parents table and tell them they are a safety hazard. The ones in my loft area get a blanket talking to about throwing things downstairs. I tell the kids not their parents. If you do this with a smile and just the right amount of stern in your voice you usually solve the problem. Some parents should not be allowed in restaurants. Football game this weekend I will see it all with a bit more alcohol in the mix. Almost 35 years in the hospitality business. Richard

[Texano78704]

301. Thank you

For your kind, consideration to everyone.

[struggle4progress]

314. Well, that's the right attitude towards kids: pleasant straight-talk usually works

[ecstatic]

143. I'm not sure, but when he behaves that way she is horrified and

embarrassed. He enjoys being the center of attention.

I would pass the tips along but I don't want to seem like the pushy person with no kids telling someone how to parent.

[cleanhippie]

180. Yeah, its just a phase.

But until that phase has passed, that child has no business in a restaurant.

[TorchTheWitch]

625. No it isn't

The kid is doing it to test boundaries. He likes the reactions that he gets from his bad behavior, and he's still doing it because he has not yet been taught that this bad behavior is going to have bad consequences for him every single time he does it. Kids learn VERY fast what behavior to stop doing if they have to suffer bad consequences every time they do it.

My next door neighbors have a daughter that's 2 1/2 now. We live in row houses with tiny backyards, so there is no distance buffer whatsoever when I'm in my yard and she's in hers. About a year ago when she wasn't yet 2 years old, she started doing the boundary testing with the most shrill ear piercing screams that could friggin' shatter brick walls. Her parents do absolutely nothing about this or any of her other bad behaviors, but I refused to put up with it. Once when she was outside in her yard and I was in mine keeping an eye on her while her mom ran inside to use the bathroom she let out one of these wall disintegrating screams, and I went right up to the dividing fence, pointed my finger at her and while looking at her sternly told her if she ever did it again while I was around she'd be sorry and that I didn't care if her parents were willing to put up with her being bad but I wouldn't. She's NEVER done it again when I'm around. She's been a perfect angel ever since when I'm in my yard and she's in hers, and her parents are totally baffled by this. I've seen how her parents deal with parenting, and suffice it to say, they don't parent, so why they're baffled is beyond me.

She still does this ghastly screaming thing, and it's more frequent, more shrill and for no reason whatsoever anymore... she just doesn't do it around me. She's smart as a whip, not the least bit shy, and what an amazing person she'd end up being if she had decent parenting. Unfortunately, she's becoming a world class brat and gets worse every day... she just doesn't behave like that when I'm around, and all because of ONE time I made her understand that I wasn't going to put up with bad behavior from her. Interestingly enough, she's more comfortable with me than anyone else outside her immediate family although I really don't pay all that much attention to her. I wonder if it's because with me she knows where the line in the sand is so there is no reason to be uncomfortable. Maybe that's why kids test boundries... because they feel more comfortable knowing where they stand with someone?

[Obamanaut]

191. While growing out of it, avoid the restaurant in the OP. That is the sort

of behavior that prompted the signs.

[grace0418]

195. That's why parents need to understand that there might be periods of time they can't go out to eat.

Or hire a baby-sitter if you need a break. To me that's part of the deal of becoming a parent. There are things you must give up for awhile.

[etherealtruth]

212. Whole heartedly agree

My brood learned very early in life that if those behaviors were exhibited we would leave immediately. There are also many places that were out of the question ... they were not appropriate places to teach that lesson.

I love children (especially mine) ....but, my love for them does not give me the right to disrupt others.

[ThomasQED]

210. You should watch "The Dog Whisperer". (nt)

[Boudica the Lyoness]

228. lol

[JanMichael]

271. Then his parents can wait until he outgrows it to take him out

Period.

[whathehell]

376. You don't have to "control" it...You just have to "remove it", LOL.

[Lucian]

483. His parents shouldn't bring him into a restaurant then until he learns to control himself.

I'd be pissed if I were one of the restaurant patrons listening to that little shit scream at the top of his lungs.

[Frustratedlady]

39. Good. I have had many meals ruined by running and screaming children.

I've raised three, have ten grandchildren and five greats, so don't say I'm an old crab. I often take the whole gang out for dinner and when you pay that much for a nice meal, it would be wonderful to be able to enjoy it.

Many people are letting management do the babysitting while they chatter away with their friends and enjoy their meal. That is rude.

If I knew of a restaurant in town that had the same policy, I would gladly spend my money there where I could truly enjoy a quiet conversation and a good meal.

I may be old-fashioned, but common decency still rules in my book.

[Dappleganger]

46. There's nothing old-fashioned about common decency and manners.

[msanthrope]

50. Well, then count me in as old-fashioned...n/t

[LostinVA]

62. Me too

See?! Something else we can agree on!

[msanthrope]

119. I'm a consensus-builder, I am....

;)

[The Northerner]

41. The restaurant owners rightfully own the property so this shouldn't be considered illegal, right?

[LostinVA]

63. No, since it is a behavioral issue

They aren't banning all black kids, etc. Also, you can have an age restriction: no kids under 15 or whatever at B & Bs, and I know some restaurants have a no kids under 16 thing.

[jmm]

47. The only thing that bothers me about this is singling out children.

If forced to chose I'd rather listen to a screaming child than a couple arguing or somebody talking loudly about gastrointestinal problems on their cell phone.

[LostinVA]

106. Adults who yell and scream are asked to leave

I would think it would be a very rare case if that didn't happen.

[jmm]

274. I've never left a restaurant because of a child's behavior but I have left because of adults.

Adults may not throw tantrums as often as children but they can be just as bad if not worse in their own way. Tonight I went out to eat and the adults at the table behind me were louder than the child at the table across from me.

Once when I complained to my waitress about a table full of adults she spoke to the manager who came to my table and offered to move us. My table got up and left. We weren't the ones making very loud graphic sexual and racial comments so why treat us like the problem and move us instead of saying something to them?

[HuckleB]

534. It's not rare, and adults are not asked to leave for offering the same level of disturbance.

[LostinVA]

654. They most certainly are

And, far more frequently than a disruptive child.

[HuckleB]

535. It's not rare, and adults are not asked to leave for offering the same level of disturbance.

[HuckleB]

536. It's not rare, and adults are not asked to leave for offering the same level of disturbance.

[saltpoint]

568. You should get out more.

Adults violate civil conduct at a greater rate and degree than any 4-year old.

[lunasun]

299. Or 2 teabaggers talking about Obama...been there .. but idiot parents

who don't get there kids to behave afer a certain age,or do not care, or bring them out at too young of age are no picnic either at nice places. McD's , Chucky C, well then all is where it should be but even those places I have seen unacceptable behaviour for that level of dining
sign me ,
Mother of a young child

[pennylane100]

48. My younest grandson had a high pitched scream that would pierce your eardrums.

My daughter would always cap his mouth with her hand and as soon as she took it away he would scream again with a big grin on his face, At that point she would take him outside until he stopped. They moved back east and now every time I hear a child with a loud piercing scream I miss him. However he is older now and no longer no longer does that.

[ejpoeta]

49. I think the restaurant has the right to refuse service to whoever they want.

I have three kids and I tend to be very careful before taking them in anyplace. My 11 month old daughter has started this screeching and i don't know how she would be with this new development. But we don't go out much. As far as at school functions.... I took my daughter to her 6th grade orientation and my 4 year old was acting up. she was bored and it went on forever. Am i saying it's right? No, but you have to understand WHY kids act up. Now, how could I get up and walk out with her when I was there with my older daughter to hear this important info. I did end up taking Ashley out and my younger daughter, but it's not always as simple as poeple like to make it. When it's just me I can't take one kid out. as far as stares and comments.... i've had my share over the years.

some think people with kids shouldn't take them anywhere. i have heard people say parents should not take them to the grocery store even. as if we wouldn't go without them if we could. i've had people try to give me money to give my kid what she was throwing a fit over and let me tell you how that pissed me off. I do not reward bad behavior. EVER!

[Dappleganger]

56. Grocery shopping with kids is a challenge!

There were periods of time when I would have to trade off the really small ones with our neighbor (who had kids the same age) when they would beg. My rule was if you begged you got NOTHING. If you whined, we left and you didn't get to come the next time we went out shopping (this was something they looked forward to doing each week). If they asked for nothing the entire trip, at the end they could choose one thing (usually they could choose what flavor yogurt or what kind of juice, that kind of thing). When we went shopping for a family with four kids it quite often ended up with two carts, so our oldest daughter was important to me for help. We also didn't go shopping before or during their usual naptime or when they were hungry.

Single moms can do it too, I've seen it many times. The problem is that most single parents are usually exhausted and are afraid to ask for a favor from a neighbor or a friend. It's been my pleasure to be that friend from time to time so the parent can do what they need to do w/out going crazy. I know parenting is 24/7/365 and honestly I wonder if it will ever end (we have 3 teens and 1 pre-teen).

[ejpoeta]

140. i am a SAHM and everyone i know works. I have no one to watch my kids unless i go when bob (my dh)

is home. i consider it a vacation. i get in the long line and take my time. LOL! when someone is taking a bit and apologizes i say that's ok. i can't hear my kids crying from here. :) now that the two older ones are in school i can arrange to go during the day while they are there and i will only have abby. that will be a treat. she's not bad... doesn't run off (she's 11 months old). she doesn't ask for things yet either. as far as getting treats.... if they are good through the store there is a chance, but no guarantee.... if they act up then they can forget it. also my 4 year old (almost 5) likes to bring a cart to push which can help sometimes to keep her from wandering off. sometimes. but she has been throwing fits lately. not nearly as bad as my 11 year old was. she's an amateur compared to emily. I would have to pick emily up and carry her out of the store leaving a cart of groceries behind. she would be hitting me and screaming bloody murder. she was younger then. she has ADHD and the overstimulation caused problems sometimes. I swear i know people stared, but in some ways it was scary to think what if i was kidnapping this kid and she was screaming and no one said a thing!!! because believe me, she SCREAMED!!! she is much better now and is helpful in the store. she'll push the cart for me or take ashley in to the bathroom.

parenting i think has different phases each with it's own difficulties. when they are young they need to learn appropriate ways to express themselves, lets say. as they get older they have different issues, though much of it has to do with testing boundaries no matter the age. good luck with the teenagers. i am dreading that phase.

[Dappleganger]

142. Good for you.

Trust me, if you handled things well during the time they were toddlers you will do fine when they are teens. Same stuff, just more communication and self-medication involved (j/k!). Our oldest just graduated from high school and is going to school while living at home. She was our angel, never gave us any trouble until she hit 8th grade. For about 6 months I was on the phone nearly every day with my mom, crying or begging for help. I went to a counselor because she was driving ME crazy. She broke a major rule after some other fights, so we busted her back to 1970 for the rest of the school year. She finally figured out that that was the end of it and shaped up by the beginning of 9th grade. Now she calls it her "crazy time" and wonders what she was thinking.

Now our 14 yr. old daughter is as stubborn as a mule, and I have a feeling she's going to push back really hard quite soon. :(

[ejpoeta]

178. just think..... these will be the good old days you look back on when they grow up

and move out and have their own life. sometimes they need to get busted. i have emptied emily's room to the point she had nothing but a bed in it before. and she had no privileges and had to earn it all back. my way of thinking..... someone has to be mean, and it might as well be mean. i believe every child should have someone who spoils them but not their parents. that's what grandparents are for.

[Dappleganger]

220. That's right.

Grandparents can do it but that's all. Good for you on busting her and sticking with it!

[keroro gunsou]

216. my mom was smart

she managed to channel my bored, restless energy in the store to getting the shopping done faster. handed me a list and said go.... i swear, i must have been using flash steps back then cause when i went shopping with my mom, it took her 2/3rds less time to do it with my help....

[TorchTheWitch]

626. Simple - have them help

That's what my mom did, and she had six of us and our big family required two shopping carts on grocery shopping day. She put us to work helping with the shopping and it made us feel important, involved, and killed any bordom... and I think it's bordom more than anything else that makes kids act up. Being the youngest, I can even remember as a toddler sitting in the cart helping with shopping by using the pencil to cross something off the list when Mom showed me which item needed to be crossed out, and man, did I ever feel like a hero for doing that simple little task. To this day I still get a little thrill of satisfaction whenever I cross something off a list... I wonder if that shopping memory has something to do with it even now. It's one of my very earliest memories and I remember it as vividly as if it were just yesterday.

[CrispyQ]

395. The gripe about screaming kids in a restaurant I can fully understand,

but in a grocery store? :eyes: I don't like it anymore than anyone else, but it's not the same as going to a restaurant! I just avoid the aisle the disruptors are in & come back when they've moved on. No big deal.

Once I was in line behind a woman & her little monster was kicking, crying & screaming while he sat in the cart because he wanted some gum or something. She kept saying, "No, you don't get anything the way you're acting!" He went into full throttle then. I didn't think his screams could get any louder, but they did! Just before the checker completed the order, she rolled her eyes & said, "Ok, ok, here you go," & handed him some gum.

Lesson learned by the little monster? Kick, cry & scream loud enough & long enough & Mom will capitulate. I doubt she's even aware how her behavior encourages his bad behavior.

[ejpoeta]

469. i used to see that when i worked as a cashier.that just guarantees the kid

will do it again. i would rather have people staring at me and my screaming kid than give in. i try to ignore it so as not to reward it that way.

[HughBeaumont]

58. Sorry, as someone who's plagued by "The Curse", I agree with this.

I cannot go anywhere . . . AND THE ROCK MEANS ANYWHERE . . . without being subjected to some howling, wailing, screaming child/baby/toddler; minimum 1, sometimes 2 to 3. You name it. Restaurants. Parties. Movies (sometimes R-Rated. Nice parenting). Awards ceremonies. Museums. Malls. Department Stores. Class reunions. Las Vegas (AGAIN, Nice Parenting). It never freaking ENDS.

And yeah, every time it's the same story - the parents usually do absolutely NOTHING AT ALL about the screaming. They just let it continue and don't care a LICK that it's annoying the living PISS out of everyone trying to carry on a conversation or eat.

So it may not sound like the RIGHT thing to say, but I welcome places like this.

(aside: yes, I have a stepson, whom I've been around since he was 18 mo. old. And NO, he never behaved like a screaming unruly spine-seeking ANYwhere we went. I really lucked out on that. The most he ever did was pout and make grouchy faces. Awesome. I'll take that, just don't wail at the top of your lungs . . .)

[hlthe2b]

71. Maybe we should have "Pitbull night at the cinema"

:evilgrin:

Just kidding, I LOVE Pitbulls.....;)

[HughBeaumont]

72. As long as we don't go to Olive Garden prior to . . .

:evilgrin:

[L0oniX]

64. LOL "American with Disabilities Act" so you are disabled if you have children? LOL

[msanthrope]

75. The mother who brought up the ADA has an autistic child.

Which is an interesting tangent--would kicking out a kid with autism, or Tourette's give rise to an action under the ADA?

[Hello_Kitty]

117. The ADA says they have to provide access to the facility

Not that they have to tolerate whatever you do once you're in the place.

[LynneSin]

76. Only if you have children and no clue how to discipline them

This woman is basically telling me that her autistic child has the right to scream as loud and annoyingly as possible and we all just need to STFU and enjoy it.

[Book Lover]

121. Please correct me if I am misunderstanding your post

Are you saying that an autistic child can be disciplined out of their screaming fits? That is, if only a parent would apply the correct discipline, a child on the autism spectrum would not scream?

[msanthrope]

132. If Lynne isn't saying it, I am.

An autistic child subject to screaming fits should not be taken into a restaurant because it's pretty obvious that the restaurant is causing them stress and making them uncomfortable.

A parent properly discipling an autistic child simply avoids certain voluntary situations...until enough parenting/therapy/discipline has happened that the experience is enjoyable for all, including the child.

That's an expansive view of discipline, but one that I use with my own autistic child. It works.

[Book Lover]

138. Thank you for your reply (nm)

[Burma Jones]

69. Carolina Beach is kind of a dump...........most folks with kids go to Wrightsville Beach

And folks with screaming kids would be best served by just going to nearby Wilmington........

My folks live in Wilmington and the family - Wife, three kids (12, 10 and 4) and I - have been vacationing down there for about 15 years now, many times with screaming kids......

We've avoided Carolina Beach......it's nasty, well, except for Britt's doughnuts.....


We've always taken the screaming kid out of the restaurant until they were calm, both my wife and I have had to have our meal packed up and have eaten it in the car because of our absolute refusal to let our kid scream in a restaurant.


On Edit:

Once, I was checking out at a grocery store with my youngest just absolutely pitching a fit. A woman came over to my then 3 year old daughter, grabbed her by the shoulders - roughly - and started to scream for her to shut up, before I could get to this woman, the woman behind me in line grabbed the woman who had grabbed my kid and literally hurled her to the floor. I walked over to the woman on the floor, fighting a strong urge to stomp her head in or at least spit in her face, and explained to her that I was trying to get out of there as fast as I could and that if she could not handle life's annoyances she should be confined to a much quieter place. I then thanked the woman who had helped me out and left.

[Kalyke]

90. You go Burma!!

As I said above, I agree with removing the screaming child, but how much time are you given? Most children scream abruptly and getting them out of a crowded restaurant quickly can be a challenge. My concern is that families will begin to feel like prisoners with these policies - afraid to venture out because Little Johnny may let out an ear-piercing yelp and the family is asked to leave - and get embarrassed as holy hell - before either parent has time to get Little Johnny outside or to a bathroom or whatever.

Besides, I do think posting a sign like this is inviting age discrimination suits. Just politely ask the parent to take the screaming kid outside - you don't have to post that you will on your damn door! That's far more rude than a kid who is screaming because he/she can't rationalize that they're in a public place and don't know what an indoor voice is, yet.

[Kolesar]

217. Do you like Roller-derby, too? ... eom

[LiberalFighter]

388. Most children scream abruptly when they are not parented properly.

If the parent can't handle their offspring when they are out then they have no business being out of the home. Children are easier to train then dogs. If they don't behave it is because the parents aren't doing their job. Do those same parents let their kids scream their heads off without taking any action to correct the behavior when at home?

[Missy Vixen]

447. They wouldn't have posted the sign if they did not believe it would be effective

>My concern is that families will begin to feel like prisoners with these policies<

My concern is that the rest of the restaurant patrons are forking out cash for an enjoyable meal which is spoiled by those who believe their pwecious is the only person in the restaurant!

A business owner is entitled to post any sign they'd like that does not discriminate. Perhaps you've noticed the "we reserve the right to refuse service to anyone" sign before where you live. I invested in a sign reading "Unattended Children Will Be Given an Espresso and a Free Puppy" after a woman in our small town would drop her kids off to "browse" in my store. Alone. I also told her the next time her kids were alone in my store, I'd be calling the local police.

The owner(s) of that restaurant most likely had multiple negative experiences with other people's screaming kids before posting that sign. They would not post such a sign if it was going to cost them significant business. BTW, I'm not sure if you've noticed this, but there are people who don't care that you are inconvenienced and/or annoyed by a screaming, crying child, and react quickly and explosively towards anyone who dares to suggest they might want to do something about the situation.

[Love Bug]

512. My daughter used to work at a famous toy store

and you'd be surprised how many times adults would drop their kids off there and go shopping elsewhere in the mall, leaving the store clerks to watch their kids. She said when it happened they would call mall security to take the kids. When the parents came back the manager would have to explain they were not a daycare service. The parents would become upset but too bad. I don't blame the store at all for doing this because it's just not safe for the kids to be unattended when the clerks are dealing with customers. And what about the possible liability if they got hurt or something else bad happened to them? Some people are idiots.

[LostinVA]

526. I worked at a big-box bookstore and parents would do the same thing

And, these are little kids -- 7-10. Not only would they get up to no good and destroy product and be a nuisance, but we were petrified they would be snatched. One more thing to worry about on a busy Saturday.

[bigwillq]

73. K and R

:bounce:

:thumbsup:

[LynneSin]

74. I applaud the owner of this restaurant. And to the mother who is upset about this...

...then take your child elsehwere.

I do respect that she has an austic child and they do require extra patience in dealing with mood behavior. But seriously, why does that woman feel she has some god given right to go to any restaurant she chooses and force the other patrons to deal with her child should he/she start to scream uncontrollably!

This has nothing to do with discrimination against a disability. I've worked in a restaurant industry on and off for over 10 years and I have waited on just about every kind of disability imaginable. And ALL of them combined were still 100000000% more pleasant to deal with than a parent with a child screaming out of control ESPECIALLY if the parent choose the old "ignore them and they will eventually shut up" technique. I am one of the most patient people when it comes to disability but the only disabled person I see when a child is screaming out of control in a public place is the parent. Because clearly they do NOT have the ability to discipline their own children.

BTW my parents were very strict with us when it came to dining out in public and it did not matter if it was a nice restaurant or just McDonalds. My dad liked to do a family dining-out event once a week and btw even back then going to McDonalds was a treat for all of us. If we misbehaved we knew when we got home we would be in trouble PLUS he would then not take us out the next week for our family dining event.

Trust me, I only had to misbehave once time and it never happened again. Oddly enough it wasn't either of my parents that punished me but my brother who hassled me all week for ruining what he thought was a fun family event. Made me miserable.

[msanthrope]

77. I have an autistic child, and I don't expect restaurants

to conform to her....she had to learn to behave, or we went somewhere else more suited to her, or not at all.

She's very good in public now...I kinda laugh when she clears her place at Starbucks and then asks me why everyone isn't cleaning up after themselves....

[LynneSin]

82. I know someone with an autistic child and her story is similiar to yours

That woman in the article should be embarassed. She made herself out to be a lazy woman.

[Mz Pip]

88. I don't think equal access

means preferential treatment. Her kid has access to the restaurant but he does not get preferential treatment. He has to behave like everyone else. He's not being discriminated against. Discrimination would be not letting him in at all.

[Lebam in LA]

80. My adult children still talk about being dragged out

of stores and restuarants when they were young. They learned that if they acted up in public, they would be removed. It only took a few times for each, but they still remember. My grandchildren are lil angels in public.

[prole_for_peace]

89. “She looked at me and said, ‘I cannot believe you even take him in public."

I don't think I believe this was said. Maybe Kelly Chambliss really does think she heard it but i really doubt it

[LostinVA]

111. Yeah, that was my first reaction when I read that, too

[Book Lover]

127. Why not?

I've had that tossed at me twice during my son's 7 years. Is it that you don't believe people in general would be that rude, or that that exchange took place in this particular instance?

[prole_for_peace]

156. I don't think this particular exchange happened. nt

[Canuckistanian]

91. This reminds me of Stephanie Miller's "Screaming Baby Airlines"

Welcome to Screaming Baby Airlines, If you do not have a screaming baby near you, a screaming baby WILL be issued to you.....

:rofl:

[Dappleganger]

137. That was classic...

and awesome!

[Robb]

92. I offer Robb's Second Principle:

"Regarding parenting, everyone else is doing it wrong."

(Robb's First Principle, for newcomers, was "Ain't nothing so good, a little bacon can't make it better.")

[Redstone]

94. Seconded.

Redstone

[DainBramaged]

104. I offer Robb's first principle

Robb is a dingbat!


:hi: :hug:

[SidDithers]

112. One of the most popular food choices at this year's Canadian National Exhibition...

in Toronto was chocolate covered bacon.

There was also an hour-long line up for the deep-fried butter.

:hi:

Sid

[newtothegame]

105. Mom is arguing we should let the other 998 children scream their heads off...

because 1-2 per 1000 are autistic? :shrug: My cousin has sever autism, and I understand the struggle his Mom and Dad have had in raising him, but I also know that they would never ask to "wag the dog."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autism#Epidemiology

[Hello_Kitty]

116. Thank you!

I knew one sentence into the article that they'd trot out an autistic kid in an attempt to shame people into accepting all unruly children.

[mnhtnbb]

120. Nothing is more unpleasant than going out for a nice meal only to have it disrupted

by noisy kids that have not been socialized to the level of behavior that is appropriate
to the location. Parenting is work--it's damned hard work--but good parenting
results in children learning appropriate behaviors and respect not only for themselves,
but others.

[Iwillnevergiveup]

122. Grocery shopping is more of a necessary chore

So if you have no choice but to bring the kiddies, it can be very frustrating when they act up. You have to bring home some supplies, but you're getting ugly looks from other shoppers. The option for me was to leave my 2 kids with someone when they were little so I could take in my list and get 'er done. It also made it much easier hauling in all the bags.

I'm more conflicted on restaurants...many a time, especially sitting in a booth, I've seen an adorable youngster standing up in an adjoining booth facing me and smiling at me. No antics, no screaming. But when I've encountered a more unhappy, disruptive situation, I always feel sorry for the parents. Most of the time, they seem responsible and take the kiddy out until more calm. But I think, too, that families with little kids are more regularly exposed to craziness at mealtimes when they're at home, so they're less sensitive to it when eating out.

[KamaAina]

128. ‘I cannot believe you even take him in public. You must be the only one,’

:grr: :banghead: :argh: :nuke:

Mom took me out in public ALL THE TIME. And that was FORTY DAMN YEARS AGO.

Imagine the outcry if someone said that to, say, a mom with an adopted Chinese child.

Open bigotry against people with disabilities is apparently still tolerated in certain quarters. :eyes:

[LanternWaste]

130. I'd make an obvious and illustrated point to never eat there...

I'd make an obvious and illustrated point to never eat there...

My own personal conveniences and preferences are far outweighed by the least among us... though I imagine many others will not hold to the same. regardless, if my enjoyment is minimized merely by the crying of an infant, then I have to conclude I wasn't enjoying myself too much in the first place.

[Rebubula]

144. Yeah...

if my enjoyment is minimized merely by the crying of an infant, then I have to conclude I wasn't enjoying myself too much in the first place.

That may be the dumbest statements that I have ever seen here and a statement that I would have not expected out of someone that usually posts very astute messages.

Or you are just trying to be 'holier than thou' about this thread - or you really like the sound of screaming babies...

[LanternWaste]

168. To each there own as demonstrated by this thread, yes?

It applies merely to me, and I believe I made that qualification quit clear. To each their own as demonstrated by this thread, yes?


I've simply never had my enjoyment of a thing lessened by the ruckus caused by an infant.


Of course, I'll certainly give your position of what may or may not lessen my own enjoyment all the consideration it warrants.

[cleanhippie]

183. Seconded.

dumbest statement, indeed.

[Boudica the Lyoness]

225. The crying of a baby sets off my natural protective instincts

and I get stressed.....naturally stressed. I certainly cannot relax.
On the other hand an out of control noisy brat makes me very annoyed....annoyed at the parents for being selfish rotten shits I always left public places with my boys when they were little and crying.

[Fleshdancer]

134. I see nothing wrong with taking a screaming baby outside

My restaurant rules for when my daughter was young (same rules that applied to me when I was a kid):

- no high end restaurants until she proves herself
- no getting out of her chair and standing or walking around in the restaurant
- inside voice at all times
- screaming/crying/temper tantrums will be taken outside immediately
- absolutely no food throwing
- respect the waitstaff by saying please and thank you
- napkin on lap, no playing with the silverware
* I make sure I always have crayons and paper in my purse because boredom is a parent's enemy in this situation

When my daughter went through her terrible 3's, there was a good 8 months when we could not eat at a restaurant unless we had a babysitter so that we could leave her at home. Since then though, she's been a parent's dream in restaurants.

Having a young kid temporarily keeps you from doing every single thing you want to do at any given time. They grow up though and it gets better. Until that happens though, respect the establishments and the other patrons. The world does not revolve around you and your special little snowflake.

[CrispyQ]

398. ...

"Having a young kid temporarily keeps you from doing every single thing you want to do at any given time. They grow up though and it gets better. Until that happens though, respect the establishments and the other patrons. The world does not revolve around you and your special little snowflake."

:applause:

[newportdadde]

135. Sounds great lets just ban everything we don't personally like.

I've never had an issue with any of my four children, gotten compliments etc from strangers on the one or two times a year we eat out as a family.

:sarcasm: below

So here is list of other things some people may not like, you will notice all of them are 'controllable' by the parties involved same as everyone in this thread says kids are controllable.

1) People who smell terrible. It is controllable, its called a shower, get creative and use it more then once a week. Kick them out!

2) People who take a bath in a 50 gallon drum of perfume/cologne. It is controllable, if we can smell you outside of hugging distance then kick them out! We want to smell my food not your toxic flowers.

3) People who have tattoes or piercings visible. Eww gross I don't want to see that when I eat! Kick them out!

4) People who smell like smoke, yuck they smoke at home and stink like hell. Kick them out!

5) Fat people! Omg fat people are so gross when they eat and they had to make this booth so wide for them to fit their guts in here my back hurts leaning up to my plate. Just go to the gym already and stop stuffing your face its controllable right!? Kick them out!

6) Idiot Republicans who have to talk loud politics. Nothing like watching a deadbeat redneck wearing a wife-beater T-shirt talk about how lazy and sleazy all of us liberals are while I sit down in my buttoned up business shirt to eat before driving home in my paid off car to my paid off house. Yep I'm a lazy hippie liberal. Kick them out!

7) Loud Cell phones talkers! "What Betty!?" "I can't hear you we are eating out." "I said we are eating out!!" "Yeah I know it gives me gas.." Kick them out!

Did I get everyone?.. ow wait its just me sitting in here now.. what happened?

:sarcasm:

So were do we draw the line? Maybe we should just grow up and realize that when we are out in public that means dealing with the public and that means all races, genders, young, old, disabled, loud/annoying, chatter boxes, smelly etc etc.

[Rebubula]

145. Agree with....

....1,2 and 7.

The rest are just hyperbole.

[TwilightGardener]

149. Exactly. There are many people who bother me, gross me out, take up too much

fucking room, etc. Even noisy kids are low down on my list of public offenders.

[pipi_k]

368. I think we need to sit and think about HOW we're being affected

Overweight people don't bother me. Neither do people with tattoos or people talking politics or people with two teeth, etc.

If someone smells, I can move away to the opposite side of the restaurant.


But if someone is allowing his or her kids to run rampant in a restaurant, there IS no escape. Not to mention that any normal person would sit there in some concern that the kid might end up hurting itself or maybe even run into a server laden with a tray or dishes, causing the server to drop said tray onto the kid or other patrons. Perhaps causing burns from hot coffee or soup.

Then there's the problem of kids who maybe don't run around but serenade the place with ear-shattering screeches. Where do you go to get away from that?

Crying/screaming babies or children is one of the most viscerally disturbing sounds.

Nobody is saying anything about BANNING children. Like someone else said...it's all about asking for a little consideration for one's fellow diners. Take your screeching kid outside until he calms down. You'll be showing consideration for others at the same time you teach your kid what acceptable public behavior is.

[NashVegas]

409. Four of Your Seven Have Been Known to Be Asked to Leave Certain Establishments

As have people without shoes and shirts.

Congratulations on your well-behaved children. Not everyone is such a wonderful, discriminating parent who knows when and where to take the kids.

[MineralMan]

139. My wife's sister and her idiot husband will only go to

Old Country Buffet, so I'm forced to go there once or twice a year for an extended family gathering. It seems to be a rule in that place that all children must scream and run all around the restaurant for the entire time they are there. After watching one child reach his pudgy little hand into a nearby steam table tray and grab some of the food in it, I have made it a specific point to never eat anything that is within reach of a child when I am forced to go there. Who knows where that hand had been before it felt around in the food. Ick Poo!

If you've never been in one of these places, and I imagine most of the single-price buffet restaurants are quite similar, it would be an eye-opener. If one judged the quality of parenting by the patrons of Old Country Buffet, there would be little hope for America's future. It is truly an amazing circus of bad behavior all around, and the adults who are there are little better, I'm afraid.

[LostinVA]

146. This is my favorite thread in WEEKS!!!

Yay!!!

[Heidi]

153. Mine, too.

I'm gaping in slack-jawed wonder at the sense of entitlement some folks enjoy. It's almost as good as "I'll smoke wherever I damn well please!"

[LostinVA]

159. It makes me tingly and happy

I know -- we were well-behaved kids, as are my niece and nephew. Trader Joe's on Saturdays has an odd number of "Indigo Parents." It's not like that Sunday morning.

[Heidi]

166. Procreating entitled, egocentric upper-middle class folkshave to go grocery shopping, too, you know.

What are you, anyway? Biased in favor of civility? :rofl:

[REP]

227. I so love you

And your spleen.

I have to go slap a baby now.

[LostinVA]

236. giggle

[mitchtv]

184. we, never saw the inside of a restaurant

I guess my parents had to pinch pennies with 5 kids in parochial school. occaisonaly we had chinese take out or white castles.

[Bill McBlueState]

151. Why is a sign necessary?

At 95% of the restaurants I go to, parents and their kids come and go without incident, and the noise level is appropriate for the style of restaurant. All without some obnoxious sign on the wall.

[tammywammy]

155. For the 5% of people that don't take their children out

And think we should just understand and put up with it.

[LostinVA]

162. This is a touristy area

[grace0418]

207. As with the sign I saw at Brookfield Zoo once that said "Ouch! Please don't pluck the peacock's

feathers. They want to keep them!" such signs are created because the place has had a problem with this behavior one too many times. Who would think to pluck the feathers of a living peacock roaming around the zoo? Inconsiderate people who only think of their immediate desires. Who would let their child have a complete meltdown in a restaurant and not take them outside? Same people.

Consider yourself lucky that you don't experience this 95% of the time you go out to eat.

[shireen]

152. reasons for screaming ...

I guess there are many reasons. But one of them is boredom. Do fidget toys help keep them occupied?

[FSogol]

157. My grandmother always had some matchbox cars, crayons, and a container of Cheerios in her purse

to keep me and my sister quiet. I imagine it worked for 5-10 minutes.

[keroro gunsou]

222. both of mine had books for me to read

whenever they took me and my sister out. my sister was the hellraiser, i was the geek reading snoopy and charlie brown. i was the eerily silent kid at the table whenever my extended family was together....

funny story, in regards to crayons... my dad's mom was still working as a nurse when i was around 6, so when our family went out to some swanky place, she bought me a new coloring book, one based on grey's anatomy, and she helped me with the colors. needless to say, the waitresses that worked our table was rather disconcerted to see the heart and lungs in such vivid colors... and almost in the lines too :evilgrin:

it got worse when my uncle (dad's little brother) got me into old school dungeons and dragons. i was really into cartography and map making back then more so than actual gameplay (didn't have enough friends to play with back when i was 8). so one time my dad and i are at the local steak house for guys night, i'm rendering a map i'd been working on most of the day right at the table. what made it funny was i didn't miss a beat when ordering, and even impressed the waiter, who was a dungeons and dragons player at the level of detail i was putting into the map.

god i miss being able to do that... if i did that now, people might think i'm crazy.

[FSogol]

256. I too had many happy hours drawing those maps.

[keroro gunsou]

347. ditto.

it scared my dad how detailed i could make a map. even ones i based off of real maps, and especially the ones i did completely from inside my own head..

my mom on the other hand, enjoyed throwing them out, said i was wasting my time....

[Codeine]

294. I was the same way.

I used to wile away boring classroom hours drawing detailed maps of dungeons and vilages and isolated keeps.

Now I do it after I get home from work! :rofl: Dungeons and Dragons geek for life!

[Amerigo Vespucci]

249. Crayons in a little metal cup

There once was a famous Italian restaurant (in business for 30-plus years). The reputation was average food...at best...but big portions for the money.

New owners bought it...two married couples. Couple #1 put up the money and pretty much stayed out of the day-to-day.

Couple #2 ran the place...the husband managed the staff, the wife handled marketing, etc.

They had a real "Sybil" identity crisis. They could not decide who they wanted to be (and under the new management, the food really sucked).

I met with the wife once, because their Website was horrible with a capital "H."

I gently pointed out to her that she was promoting the place as a destination for "romantic" dinners.

Then I pointed to the little metal cup of crayons that was on every table so that the kids could color while they ate.

I said "You know that you can't have kids coloring the menus and romantic dinners at the same time unless people think kids coloring is romantic, right?"

She said "uh-huh."

They were also pushing wi-fi. I said "If I sit down for lunch next to a yuppie or trust fund kiddie on a laptop yapping into a cell phone, that will be my first and last lunch in that restaurant.

She said "I hear you."

Two years after the new owners bought the place, they were gone. It is now a "grill your own steak" restaurant.

:-)

[joshcryer]

437. Fidget toys reenforce their screaming because placating children doesn't stop that behavior.

The child must be taught that screaming and acting up is unwelcome behavior.

[eShirl]

158. Great! I assume they have the same policy w/ regard to screaming adults.

If it's screaming, I don't want to be near it -- whatever it is.

[LostinVA]

164. Why do posters keep saying this???

I have never been to a restaurant where adults are screaming and running around. I have seen arguments break out and the people get thrown out, and once the cops called at a nice Japanese place when some guys got drunk and acted up.

[hlthe2b]

172. I think they are referring to rude (and loud) cell phone use...

or the pack of teens (or sometimes adults) that start getting loud and boisterous, simply because they are in their "own little world"....

[LostinVA]

175. I don't disagree with either of these groups being told to chill

I don't see anything wrong with asking patrons to step outside or into the foyer for a cell phone call. Especially in nice places.

[eShirl]

174. arguments, screaming, yelling, whatever. I don't want to be near it.

What is so hard to figure out?

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

411. The point being missed is.....

...if adults were screaming and running around like assholes, they'd be asked to leave and the cops would be called if they didn't.....

But screaming kids are allowed to do whatever the hell they please, and the rest of us are supposed to accept it because "they don't know any better".

[Obamanaut]

196. Would these be the adults who encounter elderly Conservatives in McD, or

grocery check out lines who are carrying on conversations amongst themselves and are set upon with a vengeance?

[tammywammy]

204. LOL!

:spray:

[LostinVA]

238. omfg

[Vickers]

163. Sounds reasonable to me.

Full disclosure: I have left a restaurant (after paying) when my kids wouldn't pipe down.

[Ilsa]

167. As the parent of an autistic child, I've spent waaaayyyy too much time staying home.

I'll take my son almost any damn where I please. He rarely screams, but some people like to give me shit just because he isn't a carbon copy of their little clones. Yes, sometimes he flaps his arms, sometimes I have to feed him to get him to eat. But that shouldn't be any skin off their asses. Yet, they still like butting in, telling me I'm not parenting my kid right. Yeah, well, they probably would have beat their disabled children until they were dead.

Fuck the intolerant assholes.

[Odin2005]

190. +1,000,000,000,000

:applause:

[REP]

257. That's not what is being discussed

What is being discussed is children who behave in a way that is disruptive to others - screaming, running, throwing items - and parents who do not correct this behavior. Not disabled children with atypical but non-disruptive behavior.

I'm sorry some people are rude ro you sometimes. There's no call for that.

[whathehell]

353. It's not "skin off my ass" if a kid flaps his arms or has to be coaxed to eat...

It IS a problem if he or she SCREAMS continuously...and I don't think people need to "tolerate" that.

[LostinVA]

383. +1

[Dappleganger]

354. Aren't you a joy to be around?

You actually think that people who expect children to not scream in restaurants would have beat their disabled kids? That is sick and you need help.

[Raineyb]

513. +1

I agree.

And the attitude of the post you're commenting on is typical of the type who allows their children to run amok.

I remember sitting in a Pizza Hut (when one could actually sit in it rather than turning it into a half pizza hut/KFC but I digress) watching this kid throw himself on the floor, and kick his father while his parents were BEGGING him to behave. The father dragged the child to the table and continued to eat.

I remember commenting how I would have had the server pack up the stuff and left if I were with my cousin, who was the same age, and he was behaving like that because going to Pizza Hut is a treat not something he ought to expect no matter how he behaved. In fact my cousin was not with us at the Pizza Hut in the first place because he didn't behave himself in public.

It's called common courtesy I'm not sure what's so damn hard about it.

[Kajsa]

479. +1

THANK YOU!!


:)

[Radical Activist]

170. Awesome! I wish Olive Garden would do this.

But do they allow breast feeding?

[Swamp Rat]

199. Olive Garden sucks!!

:yoiks:

[Regret My New Name]

344. All their food has huge calorie counts...

Like some dishes seemed unusually high. Something that I would expect to be maybe 600-700 calories would be double that.

[tomm2thumbs]

552. the most truthful 3 words I've read all day! +1,000,000

their watered-down drinks are disgraceful too - how are parents supposed to quiet their kids down if the drinks they are slipping to the kids don't have any alcohol! hahahaha

but seriously, you couldn't pay me to eat that Olive Garden

[saltpoint]

593. You know, it really does.

It really does suck.

It absolutely, positively sucks.

I could live without that joint, no question.

[MrSlayer]

173. I might have to dine there and scream all the while.

No rule against adults screaming is there?

People like this are just asking to be fucked with.

[cleanhippie]

179. Signs like that should not be needed, but they are.

When kids are making enough noise as to disturb others (as in more that a normal conversation would produce) they need to be removed from the premises. Too many parents think that "its just kids being kids" and while that may be the case, if they are disturbing others, they need to go, just as if an adult would need to go if disturbing others.

Not a hard concept to grasp, is it?


FWIW, I DO take my 1 year old OUT of the restaurant if she cannot keep it down. And I apologize to those I pass by on my way out, too.

[Quantess]

182. This will bring in more customers.

Like it or not, there are people who will make the effort to avoid screaming / noisy children in restaurants.

[Odin2005]

185. Idiots that hate kids. I hope they go out of business.

And Armes' comment about autistic kids is offensive.

[superduperfarleft]

186. She was simply stating a fact.

Not sure what is so offensive about that.

[Odin2005]

192. You think autistic kids should not be allowed in public?

:puke:

[superduperfarleft]

361. No one said that. You're putting words in her mouth (and mine)

in an attempt to hijack this thread towards your pet issue, as you ALWAYS do.

[grace0418]

189. I don't think they hate kids, I think they have a problem with parents who don't parent.

Everyone knows that kids misbehave, but it's up to parents to take the child out of the situation until he or she calms down. I don't hate kids. I love kids. I have 20 nieces and nephews and am trying to have a child of my own. One reason I waited until I was older was because I wanted to be prepared for the sacrifices I'd have to make as a parent. One of those sacrifices is knowing that I can't just go out to dinner whenever I feel like it. That's what you sign up for when you have a kid. It's not up to the rest of the world to indulge your desire for a meal out whether or not your child is having a meltdown. You either don't go out to eat much for a few years, you hire babysitters, or you accept the fact that you might have to leave a restaurant if junior can't behave.

[Odin2005]

200. I'm not talking about a kid having an epic fit, I'm talkign about occasional screams.

The people I am calling the kid-haters are those that think parents should be thrown out just because a kid screams a couple times. Seriously, dealing with rowdy kids in public is a fact of life. As somebody on the autism spectrum I have to put up with things that drive me nuts (like screaming kids) because of my sensory sensitivities all the time when I go out in public, I don't complain, the world doesn't revolve around me. A few screaming kids may be annoying, but it is not the end of the world.

[grace0418]

205. Actually the restaurant owner was on the news last night talking to a couple

who objected to her sign. Their baby started to cry in the middle of the news story and they asked her if they'd be kicked out if that were happening in her restaurant. She replied "No, that's a crying baby. It happens. A screaming child is another story." So I think she was actually referring to kids having meltdowns while parents ignore them doing so.

I don't think the world revolves around me but neither should parents think the world revolves around them. I come across FAAAAAR too many parents in my daily life who clearly think that they and their children are the center of the universe. Whether they're parking their double-wide strollers in the middle of shopping aisles while they chat with another mom (and only moving MAYBE half an inch when you come by and politely say "excuse me"), or ignoring junior destroying store merchandise or throwing food all over the place because they're busy enjoying a latte or chatting on their phones, or insisting that their little angel couldn't have possibly bit another kid or misbehaved in any way at school, or refusing to take their screaming child out of a restaurant, I see a shocking number of parents who seem to think that giving birth has granted them some kind of immunity from any semblance of polite behavior.

As I say whenever I see a bizarre sign in a store or restaurant "this is there because the owner has had to deal with this issue one too many times." I'm not *that* old but old enough to remember when kids weren't taken to every restaurant in town. And if they were, they were expected to behave or the parents left. It happened in my family and it happened with friends' families. Signs like that weren't needed because families didn't generally go to restaurants (or movie theaters, or stores) and act like it was there own personal family room. I doesn't seem like the case anymore.

[SmileyRose]

241. I wish I could recommend your post.

You said what I wish I had the eloquence to say.

:hi:

[grace0418]

264. Aww. Thank you.

That's kind of you to say. :hi:

[superduperfarleft]

362. "the world doesn't revolve around me."

You're right, it doesn't. So keep your precious little angel at home if it can't behave itself, and don't pull the autism card in an attempt to excuse bad behavior.

[pipi_k]

372. I have the same problem you do...

with sensory sensitivities.

When someone goes out into public, like a grocery store or whatever, it's sort of expected that it's not going to be quiet. People don't go there for the atmosphere...they go there to do shopping and get out.

But unless it's a fast food place, people DO often go to a restaurant with the expectation that the atmosphere will be subdued and pleasant.

Dining...as opposed to just shoving food into one's mouth... is supposed to be civilized, not punctuated (or dominated) by the sound of out-of-control children being allowed to act like savages by parents who clearly do not care about others.


That's where I draw the line, and yes...my dining experience does become pretty unpleasant.

[femrap]

198. Just because you can

reproduce, doesn't mean you should.

[Swamp Rat]

201. What about loud drunks and people using cell phones?

That shit REALLY pisses me off!

[saltpoint]

576. Cell phones can save a life in an emergency but they

are a pain in the ass when someone is bellowing into one, and usually about nothing worth anyone else's consideration.

Totally agree.

Including in restaurants. And most of the users are grown-ups.

[grace0418]

208. My hunch: The people who are all up in arms about how horrible this restaurant owner is

for posting the sign have done the very things that caused this restaurant owner to post the sign in the first place.

[Orrex]

231. I'll say this much about it.

In certain situations (restaurants, movies, etc.) I can't stand screaming children. I don't tolerate it from my own children (i.e., we exit the venue immediately) and I don't care to suffer through it for other people's children.




On another note, that whole "maintain eye contact and a calm voice every time" thing works in approximately zero percent of the cases I've encountered. Not in my children nor in anyone else's whom I've met.


Yes, yes, I know; it works with your child. I'm sure it does.

[LostinVA]

240. +1

[Codeine]

242. Exactly.

No parent will ever admit to being the cretin with the screaming child, but those people clearly exist.

[joshcryer]

440. +1

[grace0418]

499. I'm thinking my hunch is quite correct. Now I've got replies arguing that, since I find

it acceptable for a restaurant owner to expect a certain level of common courtesy from all his or her patrons, then the logical conclusion to that line of reasoning is that parents should get kicked off airplanes in mid-air if their children cry. Seriously.

[LostinVA]

655. Yeah, that was a weird

Subthread.

[jumptheshadow]

218. Please, bring this policy to Park Slope, Brooklyn

It's impossible to dine in peace before 9 p.m. in some of the restaurants here. Kid-friendliness is one thing but screaming infants, toddler tantrums and young sprinters bumping into tables really ruin dinner.

[BrklynLiberal]

266. LOL I KNOW that you have MANY people agreeing with you....

That plague has hit Chelsea as well.

[Kolesar]

221. Free publicity for "Olde Salty restaurant" in Carolina Beach. N.C.

Come see our seafood menu and reduced price early bird specials for seniors. Watch for coupons in the Carolina Trader newspaper. See you there. Tell them WECT sent you.

[geek tragedy]

226. I try to reward bars and restaurants with 'no strollers' policies

with my business.

[Buddyblazon]

233. As a young child...

we lived in Germany. My parents told me that the Germans would ask you to leave their establishment if you could not control your child.

My parents would make it clear to me that I must behave, and in turn they would make the meal as short and sweet as possible as the knew it would be hard for a child to sit quietly and behave for any prolonged period.

I support this %100. After waiting tables when I was younger, I can not tell you how often unruly children spoiled the evening for someone. I can tell you a few stories of being loaded up with hot plates with food and tripping over someones child running up and down the aisle. And do you know who would've paid the price if the child had gotten burned? Me.

Good for this restaurant. If I'm ever in North Cacalaca....I'm going to this restaurant.

[whoneedstickets]

234. If a kids screams in a restaurant and no one's around to hear....

does it make a profit?

[Norrin Radd]

235. Was in a supermarket/department store once, carrying a coffee and a basket.

A kid threw a football that he must have grabbed from the toy section really hard at my hand, spilling my drink all over my groceries. What's ridiculous is I live in an area surrounded by five accessible parks and a long bike trail (an advantage I didn't have growing up), yet they let their kid play football in the store. I rarely see kids playing when we are at any of the parks.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

415. Sounds like it was your fault

That kid was an angel. How dare you tell me how to raise my kid.......

:sarcasm:

[grace0418]

496. I'm surprised you haven't gotten the reply I got upthread (for a comment where I never

mentioned the grocery at all but whatevs)...

Here, I'll quote it for you, because clearly you have no right to be bothered by what happened to you...


"Oh, the humanity. Oh, the imposition.
Someone actually couldn't get their bread because there was a terrifying mom with 3 scary screaming toddlers in the bread aisle. They may have even starved, I don't know, because they couldn't possibly face the terror of the screaming children for 20 seconds."

[waiting for hope]

244. Since the restaurants in Carolina Beach relies

heavily on tourist, I would say this is not a smart move ... I see us going to dinner there tomorrow night - bringing both my kids and I'm going to tell them to be bad ... :evilgrin:

I need to watch the local news more ..

[LostinVA]

272. Why should tourists' kids be allowed to run wild?

I lived in Wilmington for quite a while, and that whole area is frequently by locals just as much, especially this time of year. The season is over until the Canadians come in the winter.

[waiting for hope]

282. Should I count how many restaurants in the

Carolina Beach/Kure Beach area that shut down for the winter? Quite a few, and they do it because it makes economic sense. As a parent, I find the sign offensive. What's next? No elderly, people of certain ethnic backgrounds? Didn't you find this offensive? “She looked at me and said, ‘I cannot believe you even take him in public. You must be the only one,’ ”

[LostinVA]

285. I bet good money the owner did not say that

Other posters on this thread agree with me. There is ZERO proof the owner said that, especially since she has went out of her way to basically say the opposite.

Children aren't banned, so why would I find it offensive?

I lived in Wilmington, so I am very familiar with the area.

[waiting for hope]

378. Regardless if she said it or not, the sign is offensive.

If you can not see the broader implications of posting something like that, then I don't know what to say.

[LostinVA]

426. I don't think it is the least bit offensive

[ThomasQED]

330. You are confusing uncontrollable traits with controllable behavior

Not at all the same thing.

If you do go there and encourage your kids to be bad, please report back and tell us how long it took to get kicked out.

[waiting for hope]

374. Oh Jeez, you can't spot satire?

I have no intentions in walking into that restaurant, and btw, I have good kids who know how to behave in one.

[ThomasQED]

379. Oh geez, you said basically the same things others here said

and I know nothing about you...

[grace0418]

404. You're comparing apples to...I don't even know what. Yes, banning the elderly or certain ethnic

backgrounds is incredibly offensive. Expecting your customers to behave with common courtesy so that everyone can enjoy their meal is another story. Since children can and do have meltdowns and cannot be expected to behave like adults, it's up to the PARENTS to take the child outside until he or she calms down. That's all, just common courtesy and common sense. I don't find that offensive in the least.

As for the alleged comment, I don't know whether or not the owner actually said that and I don't know the true context. IF she did say it exactly as was quoted then it was insensitive. But that doesn't change my opinion of her asking her customers with small children to actually parent while they are in the restaurant.

[TorchTheWitch]

640. what is offensive is that a sign needed to be posted at all

It's like those signs on trains that say "No Spitting". What is offensive is not the sign but the fact that there are so many uncouth shits with no common decency that actually spit on interior parts of the train that such a sign needed to be posted at all.

Frankly, I find parents that blithely allow their children to scream and run wild in a restaurant, grocery store or anywhere that such behavior is inappropriate without the common decency to stop the bad behavior and/or take the misbehaving child out of the venue forthwith a lot more obnoxious than someone who may have spit on the floor of the train.

Parents that neglect teaching their children proper behavior are failing their children FAR more than neglecting to teach them to tie their shoes or ride a bike. Disciplining your children is the most important gift you give your child, because without learning respect for others, common decency, and what behavior is acceptable in society and what is not is the only way for your child to function successfully within society throughout their lifetime.

[pgodbold]

246. I like children, sliced thin with toast.

[LostinVA]

248. This thread proves that screaming kids in restaurants are a uniter

Posters from every side of every issue on DU have joined together in this thread to unite for a peaceful dining experience.

If only the DNC could bottle this...

[Fumesucker]

250. I guess I'm the oddball here..

Kids don't bother me, even noisy ones.

I think the restaurant is just looking for some free publicity and sure as hell a bunch of people fell hard for their ploy.

[TBF]

251. We've been taking our 3 & 7 yr olds to restaurants since

they were babies (of course we also believe in pacifiers...). Now that they're older they'll bring a toy along to amuse themselves. We look for family places and if we want a nicer restaurant we call a sitter so we can have a nice evening out. We are very lenient with our children, but having respect for other people around you is an important thing to teach your kids. A lot of entitlement in this country from both adults and children ...

On a side note I remember taking my daugher to the Nutcracker when she was 3-4 ... we thought she might be able to do it but she immediately started talking "what's that?" etc... and wouldn't stop so we left after a few minutes of trying. Same principle.

[defendandprotect]

253. Inconsiderate people can always make life hell . . . those on cell phones

in line of front or behind you, those with near-bus like SUVs taking up more than one space,

those who have to have their shopping cart at their elbow every moment and block aisles and

areas so ONLY they can get to a pile of potatoes or oranges . . .

those with dogs who think everyone wants to be licked or smelled by their dog --

shoppers who hold a piece of fruit right up to their nose . . .

men and young boys who spit on the street, everywhere!!

Oh, and this is getting to be a big one . . .

drivers who cut in front of you so closely -- this is even happening when I'm on the

right side of the driver!! -- that you have to hold your breath and brake to avoid plowing

into them.

DRIVERS . . . PLEASE BE SURE THAT YOU CAN SEE THE CAR YOU'RE TRYING TO PASS ON EITHER YOUR

LEFT OR YOUR RIGHT IN YOUR REARVIEW MIRROR!!

Kids bother me, but not as much as this stuff!!

[waiting for hope]

258. Can I add one?

People who position their shopping cart at a diagonal in the aisle so there is no way of getting past them without asking them to move ... I hate that.

[defendandprotect]

277. We need to do this everyone once in a while, I think!!

aaaahhhh . . . that feels better!!

:evilgrin:

[gophates]

254. They'd have my business.

Got no use for screaming rugrats. Or non-screaming ones for that matter.

[hughee99]

255. As the parent of 2 small children, I fully support this.

If a child can't behave in a restaurant, the child should leave (with at least one parent, of course). I've picked up my daughter and left a restaurant on more than one occasion (though not lately).

[Kajsa]

That last sentence really got me,

"She looked at me and said, ‘I cannot believe you even take him in public. You must be the only one,’ ” Chambliss told WECT."

WTF? Ok, the son had a meltdown in the restaurant and TRUE,
he needed to go outside to calm down, but this
general statement of contempt,

"I cannot believe you even take him in public."- is OK?

NOT!

THAT is fucking bigoted, PERIOD!

" You must be the only one"

What? Children with autism NEVER go out in public
according to her? What is HER problem?

Yes, she needs to learn something about autistic kids because she knows NOTHING!

Meltdowns happen sometimes with very little or no provocation, especially
in young children with autism.
We parents( and teachers) of autistic children learn very early about removing a child during a meltdown
to another area because,

it is the least disruptive to others, including fellow classmates in a Special Ed. class
and it helps calm the child down.

Her statements are totally unacceptable.

That no one here picked up on this is mind blowing!

[valerief]

260. She was probably LYING. nt

[Kajsa]

261. The mother?

I don't think so.

Why?

Because I've had cretins ask me that very question
when my son was quite young.
And this was during a meltdown, at the beach.

YES- people are that offensive and ignorant!

[AlbertCat]

263. Because I've had cretins ask me that very question

And, BOY! Is Carolina Beach full of cretins!


Seriously. Redneck city.

[LostinVA]

273. I tried not to say that the entire thread

But yeah, redneck and enlisted men city.

I understand why the owners are doing this.

[Kajsa]

275. I've heard that before.

I'm in SoCal, OC to be specific.

Yep, we have them here too.

:(

[valerief]

278. Yep. Why would a restaurant owner be that stupid? nt

[Kajsa]

281. Unfortunately,

some people are that ignorant.

[valerief]

364. And some are vengeful, like the mother may be. nt

[Kajsa]

454. Well, you don't believe the mother

and I do. That's where we disagree.

[RayOfHope]

341. Mom of a mildy austistic kid who threw an unexpected fit at the post office when he was 2

and heard that from an older gentleman there. "I wouldn't take him out in public if he acted like that". Me: "I'm sorry for the noise. He's autistic and can be a little unpredictable". Older gentleman: (scoff) "what's that? Some way of saying he's loud?"

It happens.

[valerief]

365. He's not a restaurant owner talking about his establishment in a way that could get bad press.

That's why I think it could be an indignant mother who's lying.

[RayOfHope]

473. Well, you can certainly think that. I'm sure she didn't think it would end up in the press, either

But as I said, I've experienced the same sort of comment personally.

[Kajsa]

466. It sure does, RayOfHope.

Thank you.

:)

[saltpoint]

604. The gentleman in the post office that morning, who was

no gentleman at all, sounds pretty disconnected.

I thought you were extraordinarily generous toward the old fool but would not have blamed you if you'd used a sharper tongue. At best he was ignorant and at worst dismissive. As the parent of an autistic child that day at the post office your job on that day's errand was harder than his.

[valerief]

259. The restaurant owner should AT LEAST offer kiddy muzzles to screaming kids first.

:shrug:

[MineralMan]

380. I'm thinking that ball gags would work pretty well.

:hide:

[EvolveOrConvolve]

262. Bravo, Olde Salty!

:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:

[BrklynLiberal]

265. That is OK by me....

[JanMichael]

270. Awesome!

Going to be making reservations soon!

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

276. One of the best pieces advice from my sons' pediatrician..never sabotage them. Taking

kids to restaurants that aren't basically family style can do just that.

So when initially going out as a family, we went to kid friendly places. When my oldest so was 1 week old, we took him to a Nathan's. He was able to cry to his hearts content and it was so noisy there, no one was bothered. As they got older, passed the tantrum stage, I took them to more adult restaurants. Never had a problem.

I even had an instance when someone came over to the table to compliment me on how well mannered my sons were.

[Kajsa]

283. That is excellent advice, OSO.

:)

[flvegan]

279. Somehow, this is Obama's fault.

Just trying to figure out how, exactly.

[Kajsa]

284. LOL!

:spank:

[KamaAina]

475. It is not so stop saying that!

Like everything else, it's the Clenis' fault. :P

[CoffeeCat]

286. We've always taken my two daughters...

...to restaurants. When they were babies, we had their car seats up on the table. We taught them
very early, what is acceptable behavior for a restaurant, and that if they misbehaved we would
immediately leave. I always told them, "We are guests at a restaurant and all of these people want
to enjoy conversation and their meal, so we have to be polite so everyone can have a good time."

Worked like a charm. My girls are nine and ten and they've never acted out, screamed or thrown a fit
at a restaurant.

I would take my girls into this restaurant.

Maybe we're just lucky!

[grace0418]

311. You're not just lucky, you're a good parent.

You did exactly what good parents should do, and your daughters learned good manners. I'm sure I would love to dine next to you and your girls.

[krispos42]

288. Heck, even McDonald's and Burger King put kids behind thick glass

And they're hardly "nice restaurants".

I've spent many, many hours in a BK or McD playplace full of screaming kids, and I've developed a fairly strong immunity to children screaming. And interesting book helps quite a bit. But it's a soundproofed playplace, so it's okay.

Not what I want to hear in an actual restaurant, though.

[customerserviceguy]

290. While its enforceability might possibly be in doubt

it still sends the right message to the parental units of undisciplined children. It's painful to have to experience people's untrained brats in a social situation where one has an expectation of relaxation.

If you've got brats, take them to McDonalds where they belong, playing in the plastic balls.

[Codeine]

295. Not hard to enforce at all.

Any business can tell you to get the hell out at any time, as long as they aren't doing it because of your race, sex, or religion. I kick people out of my store all the time.

[customerserviceguy]

297. I'll admit, the comments above caused me to question enforceabilty

But, good for you, you have the right to maintain order and peace in your establishment.

[MineralMan]

381. Absolutely correct.

Ejecting people for their behavior is perfectly legal. It's good for business, too, since all the people who are behaving in a normal way will applaud the decision. Sometimes literally.

[blueamy66]

296. Good for them.

Kids are lovely. They shouldn't be in a restaurant. Keep 'em at home until they have learned how to behave in public.

[Zanzobar]

302. Thank you Jebus. I knowed you was real and livin' in Nawth Ca'lina.

I'd eat there 'fyuzzin the vicinity.

[mia]

303. The first time a child starts screaming in a restaurant the parents

should take them out immediately. Zero tolerance. The screaming will stop.

[struggle4progress]

305. I wouldn't eat there. It's true that a few parents don't control their children properly, but

usually when I see a child crying loudly in a restaurant or other public place, it's because the child is tired or hungry, and the noise usually doesn't last very long. It's not a horrid noise: it's a tired hungry child. I think most people are naturally wired to be a bit sympathetic to a noisy child

[Zanzobar]

308. I'm not

I want them out. They're disgusting and dirty. They piss and shit all over themselves. Nobody except a baby could get away with that.

[struggle4progress]

310. I've had several jobs where I changed adult diapers. It wasn't the worst in the way of piss and shit

I've had to deal with: once the septic tank line got clogged at a ranch where I worked, and a building basement had several feet of fresh raw sewage in it; I got to stroll in wearing really really big rubber boots, find the floor drain, and figure out how to pour caustic soda into the drain through several feet of liquid stink without dissolving holes in myself. But the grossest I've ever dealt with was an outdoor kitchen sink grease trap that had to be cleaned every month or so: it only held a couple of putrid gallons, but it was really nausea-inducing -- pumping out the septic tank wasn't nearly as bad as that

A little whiff from a cute baby's just not gonna upset me much

[Zanzobar]

313. Einstein explained it all

Your experience in the space-time continuum is relative to your vector in same.

[struggle4progress]

320. Meh: that's bullshit. There's nothing at all wrong with honest work. And there's nothing

wrong with learning how to do things that you don't like doing: it's a nice whetstone for character development

I'm no Einstein, but your nonsense jabber doesn't impress me: I had a total of two (2) undergrad math courses, read a lot on my own, got myself into grad school, and earned a math PhD, then taught math at college for some years

Learning to be patient and to continue even when frustrated are good life skills, and lots of folk who do shit jobs practice those skills every day

[Zanzobar]

323. Brother, you and I are not so much different

I worked a pig farm in my youth. You can trust me on this; there is no condition in which you found yourself dealing with human waste that I have not experienced 10 fold dealing with hogs.

I know from whence I came.

[Regret My New Name]

345. lol... must be a joke.

[Zanzobar]

429. It was

Have a great day.

[grace0418]

309. I'm sympathetic to the child, but not to the parent that refuses to take responsibility

for that child. I fully understand the reasons why children cry loudly and misbehave, but I don't think everyone should have to listen to it when they're trying to enjoy a meal. When my siblings and I misbehaved or had meltdowns in public places, we were taken out of the situation until we could behave. Now I see parents going on with their meal while junior screams his bloody head off and everyone else has to either put up with it or leave. That's absurd and rude.

And sorry, but it is a pretty horrid noise.

[struggle4progress]

324. I suppose it depends on what we're talking about. I'll agree that nobody wants to hear much of a

screaming tantrum and that the parents should take the kid outside, if that's what going on. But it's usually clear in threads like this that some people simply hate almost any child noise

[X_Digger]

316. Not me. We chose to be childless, can't stand em. n/t

[Stellar]

307. When I took my children out for food,

it was always to a kid friendly place. When I would go out with my husband I wanted to enjoy myself. Those days didn't happen that often. What's wrong with a little peace and quite on our special day?

[X_Digger]

318. Wish I lived near there.

I'd be a regular.

[TheMadMonk]

321. Doancha just love peoples who demand that their freedoms be permitted...

...to negatively impact on the freedoms of others.

Why must YOUR autistic child become MY problem?

* Why must I sacrifice enjoyment of my $100 meal for your child's enrichment.

I am 100% against discrimination, but I also believe there is a point at which acomodation of disability has to stop. Just recently some bright spark decided the local tourist trams should be wheelchair accessible. So just up the road they installed an access ramp in the MIDDLE what had been the traffic lane. And before it was finished a driver hit it and was almost killed.


* I did not volunteer to be a bumper in a game of bagatelle.

No one expects children to behave perfectly all the time. This is why as a matter of sheer common sense and courtesy, parents should keep very young kids out of establishments where you might expect extended long waits almost certain to push the little buggers way past "I'm bored" all the way through to "Let's rock this joint".


People might note that a restraunt/business owner may (indeed may be required to) eject ANY patron who is being a disturbance to other patrons. This includes screaming babies and kids playing tag amongst the tables.

Once upon a time, parents would a) not take very young children to places where a certain degree of quiet would be expected (eg. restraunts, movie theatres) and b) in situations where their children were disturbing others, remove them without being asked. Now we get parents, who when asked politely to remove their child until they have calmed down, respond with the finger and a mouthful of abuse.

The sign does not say your child is not welcome. It says your child's screams are not welcome.

What gives anyone the right to put other patrons in the position of tollerating the disturbance or (as many will do) walk away, possibly never to return, with a comensurate result to the business owner's bottom line.

If I eat in McDonalds I expect children and everything that accompanies them right down to imperfect control over the retention of bodily wastes. If I eat in a club bistro, a couple of kids having fun among the tables is not going to bother most, but a kid in full throated outcry should be taken elsewhere until they're done and change a kid in a booth and I would pay to see such a parent having their face rubbed in it.

A 4 star or better establishment should not be expected to play host to anyone of any age that can not be trusted to remain NAILED to their seat for the duration.

[pipi_k]

363. Speaking of McDonalds and bodily wastes...

A friend once mentioned that he saw a mom pick up a small child and place it on the counter (where you order your meal) while waiting for her order.

The kid was wearing a disposable diaper that was best described as being sort of....squishy.

Maybe even a tad bit leaky.

I had never thought much about what sorts of things or substances were being dragged along across the counter that we put our hands on and across which our food is being slid, even if it's on a tray or in a bag.


Although, who knows...maybe there are just as many disgusting things going on at the nicer restaurants too.

[TexasObserver]

322. If a child can't or won't behave, don't take them where they'll bother others.

As a parent, we should take our family to places where there are other children the age of our kids. If one takes a toddler to a restaurant that typically serves an adult crowd, their kid will likely be an annoyance to everyone.

If one can't control their child, they shouldn't take them to restaurants where they'll bother other patrons. If one won't get up and take the child out when they scream, they should be tossed from the restaurant.

All of us who have raised a family know all the situations one has with kids. We have been there. The gracious parents learn not to inflict their kids on everyone else. Screaming kids don't belong in places where people gather to eat, unless that place is specifically kid friendly. Those places are everywhere, and that's where parents with unruly kids should take them until the kids can learn to behave among adults.

There are simply far too many bad parents now who don't have the slightest idea of how or why childish misconduct should be handled. Like unruly pets, most unruly kids are made, not born.

[cynatnite]

325. What was supposed to be a romantic dinner for hubby and I, wound up being hell...

It was a quiet restaurant. After we were seated at our corner booth, they put a family nearby. The kids screamed, played, and threw food. It was awful. They ruined our anniversary dinner and I still get pissed when I think about it. We never went back.

[liquid diamond]

331. K&R.

[tomm2thumbs]

335. We had a screamer behind us and asked to be reseated - repeated complaints gave us a free meal

however we never go to that restaurant any longer, as they refuse to even politely ask the parents to take their children outside until they are able to keep sound levels at a safe level for other guests.

Crying is one thing, but SCREAMING is another - decibels apart. It is just plain bad parenting when parents allowing actual screaming to continue without even batting an eye as if everyone is eating at their house.

[LostinVA]

339. I can tell you my mother never would have allowed screaming there, either

ie at the family dinner table. My mother is a great woman, and as a retired Pediatric nurse, knows how to handle kids (and pets!). She is also against spanking. My sister and I were very well-behaved kids, especially in public, as are/were my niece and nephew (they are adults now). Our dinner table at home and in public has always been one of chattering and laughter, but not screaming or bad manners. Even when quite small.

[Dappleganger]

357. One time we went to eat at a nicer pizza place...

walked in to be seated and discovered they had fucking rented out over half the restaurant to a church and they were hosting their youth group. There were about 60 middle schoolers running around and causing mayhem. We turned around and left and never returned.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

418. Probably because.....

.....9 times out of 10 if you asked a parent even politely to please take control of their child, you will be assaulted with a bunch of HOW DARE YOU TELL ME HOW TO RAISE MY CHILD!!! bullshit. That's when you realize where the kid gets the asshole gene from.

Hats off to this place for calling those types out before they get there.

[LostinVA]

449. +1

I said this up thread!

[DesertFlower]

337. i wish all restaurants would do the same.

[Regret My New Name]

346. Ditto. I wish Chuck E. Cheese's would ban kids too.

Those little bastards are always ruining my game of whack a mole. ;)

[Nye Bevan]

349. Even Disney World bans children from one of its restaurants

http://disneyworld.disney.go.com/dining/victoria-and-alberts/

Victoria & Albert's restaurant offers an intimate 2-hour to 2.5-hour dining experience in an adult- oriented atmosphere. Children under the age 10 will not be served.

I believe restaurants are perfectly within their rights to have this kind of policy.

[MadMaddie]

352. Granted it's a little bit heavy handed

however; would it be better if the owner had a sign that said,

"Parents are responsible for their childrens behavior, unruley children and their parents will be asked to leave"!

This ultimately comes down to a parents responsibility to manage and discipline their children.

I can tell you for a fact my younger sister and I NEVER had public meltdowns because we knew their were consequences for that type of behavior. Our parents were not authorative or abusive they just made sure we understood that it was unacceptable. They were not trying to be our friends, they were our parents.

[saltpoint]

355. They're little kids. Little kids are often noisy.

I'm pretty sure they've been noisy for some centuries now.

It's part of being a little kid.

Who knows but that some of us might even have been noisy little kids ourselves once.

[JCMach1]

369. +1000

Some old and middle-aged grumpy individuals need a severe attitude adjustment.

[whathehell]

375. Yes...and when I was, my mother removed me from that public place!

It's called "consideration".

[saltpoint]

377. Okey-doke, but how can parenting instincts be

uniformly employed? No two households do things quite the same way, do they?

When you enter the agora, you enter the realm of multiple expressions of what it means to be human.

Babies cry. Little kids spill things and make noise and throw tantrums.

[LostinVA]

384. It's COMMON SENSE to know to take a screaming child outside

It is COMMON SENSE to know you don't let a child run around in a restaurant. it's not only disruptive and dangerous to the child, but also to wait staff and other customers.

[saltpoint]

385. Lost, I think you should endeavor to use more capital

letters in your responses.

People instantly respect that.

Do you give workshops on common sense for people who never heard of it?

[LostinVA]

386. PA -- niiiice

:eyes:

[elehhhhna]

557. wow. I'd ask you to leave my restaurant for that rude post.

harsh.

[saltpoint]

561. Isn't it just a shame when people see an issue

differently?

Good lord!

[whathehell]

390. I don't think it's "parenting instincts"...I think it's a matter of courtesy and consideration

for others...Standards of which seem to be falling.

"Babies cry. Little kids spill things and make noise and throw tantrums"....

This is true..But what is equally true is that Adults get annoyed. Adults complain and then adults take their business elsewhere..See?..It works across the spectrum.

[saltpoint]

546. Let's say those annoyed adults take their business

elsewhere.

I'm assuming it would be elsewhere where no children are permitted. Perhaps a bar?

As long as a consumer walks in of his or her volition into a family restaurant, it seems to me to be logical that all-age members of patrons might be there collected.

Do you know of any family restaurants that prohibit children?

I don't.

[NeedleCast]

434. Ahhhh, the "Things Kids Do" response

I'm not surprised to see it rear it's head here.

Sure, no doubt little kids spill things and make noise and throw tantrums. It's the reaction of the parent that's really what's important here. After spilling their drink all over the table and/or floor is the parent going to call over the server and say "hey, little jonny spilled his drink, can we get a few extra napkins or a clean cloth to wipe it up?" or are they just going to stare at the server expectantly, waiting for the server to clean up after them.

When little Jonny throws a handful of eggs or cheerios or a dinner roll at the table across from him are the parents going to give little Jonny some parenting and let him know that such behavior isn't okay, or are they going to stare sheepishly at the person hit with cold scrambled egg with that "kids will be kids" look while Jonny heaves another handful?

[joshcryer]

439. My mom did this same thing, she only had to do it maybe a half dozen times.

I was the quietest most respectful kid you could know. Yes ma'am, yes sir, no ma'am, no sir, thank you, please, may I, shall I. Never ran around uncontrollably when I was 5 years old, like so many kids are allowed to do.

[grace0418]

389. Absolutely true, but it's not the little kids who are the problem.

It's the parents who don't parent and expect everyone to indulge them while their little ones have meltdowns.

I know I had my share of meltdowns when I was a kid, but I wasn't taken to restaurants very often and I was removed from them if I misbehaved.

Kids have been noisy for centuries, but until pretty recently kids were not brought to restaurants, theaters or other public venues nearly as often. Certainly not fine dining restaurants (not that I'm saying the Olde Salty is fine dining). I'm not that old and I sure wasn't nor were any of my friends.

And while I think it's fantastic to get kids interested in good food and culture at a young age, I think some common sense and common courtesy should prevail. If you go to restaurants or a movie or a store and your kid has a meltdown, you don't subject everyone else to it, you take the kid outside until he or she calms down. If he or she doesn't calm down, you leave. That's part the deal with having kids. Sometimes your plans get altered or cut short. People who don't want to deal with that for a few years probably shouldn't have kids.

[saltpoint]

391. I'm pretty sure most of us are all for common courtesy,

but I'm still not seeing a universal application of it in the public arena, and I don't think it can be insisted upon in that arena.

[grace0418]

396. I think a business owner can insist on it in their place of business. Especially if they've

had multiple complaints from other customers that screaming children ruined their meal. Business owners can and should expect a certain level of courteous behavior from their patrons so that everyone can enjoy their experience. It's just too bad that so many parents think rules of common courtesy don't apply to them. Granted, they probably had poor manners before they had kids, but the kids seem to magnify the lack of manners. If my business were losing paying customers due to the behavior of other customers, I'd feel compelled to do something as well.

[saltpoint]

489. How about on a Delta flight between say, Boston and

Oakland?

Should a parent or guardian simply remove the child from the plane?

Maybe they could just you know, step outside on the wing like that demon creature from THE TWILIGHT ZONE.

Ok. Let's implement that plan. Any little kid who throws a tantrum on a commercial flight, his parents have to take him outside.

Goddamit, that'll teach the little bastards!

[grace0418]

495. Are you really going to pretend that's the same thing at all? Really?

Come on, argue with a modicum of common sense please. If you can't see the difference well, there's really no point in discussing this further.

[saltpoint]

500. Still, that's a long flight, you'll surely admit.

If we insist that they take their tantrumming younguns outside of Olive Garden, it seems the same should hold for Delta flights.

Fair's fair.

[grace0418]

501. This reminds me of the oh-so-logical train of thought that leads people to conclude that

allowing gays to get married will surely lead to people marrying their dogs.

Makes about as much sense too.

[saltpoint]

502. I have no idea why it would remind you of that, since

the two are quite separate topics and trains of thought.

But if it does, it does. I'm not opposed to Surrealism. Some museum viewers are. I learned to try to appreciate different things whether they spoke to me personally or not.

Actually I kind of LIKE the Surrealists and kind of puke when I see Normal Rockwell, but hey, that's me. Some of my older relatives as I was growing up would take issue with Dali or Magritte, nevermind the more contemporary stuff. Harsh words would be exchanged!

There are some venues where removing a child in the throes of a 5-star fit is a good option and there are venues where it is not.

[grace0418]

509. Two separate topics yet the train of thought in both goes off the rails.

My point is both are silly, silly arguments that have no basis in reality. But keep talking about Surrealists paintings, that's making your argument even more solid.

[saltpoint]

511. Not silly at all, grace. Do you personally want to tell

me how to manage an unmanageable child on that Boston to Oakland flight?

Should we stuff babies in the cargo bins so that only people 12 & over can ride in the passenger section of the plane?

How do you personally negotiate a trip to a retail store when a parent in your aisle won't discipline his or her young person? Do you personally confront the parent? Do you run to the store manager to demand he or she intervene? Do you call 911?

My plan would be for all children to behave as model citizens, at all times. They would be quiet, attentive, eager to contribute to the happy flow of events, courteous to strangers and kin alike. As well, they would all study the cello and advance handsomely through the repertoire, only hang out with other kids of similar upbringing, they would at all turns convey honor to those who raised them, and sweetness and illumination would flow from their pores like a tinkling stream of angelic light.

That's my plan. Whattadya think?

[Raineyb]

514. Grace was being polite. Your argument is actually asinine.

And really if you think it's appropriate to allow children to run amok screaming in restaurants then it says a hell of a lot about you. None of it good.

[saltpoint]

544. Grace still hasn't told us how to handle that misbehaving

youngster on the cross-country flight.

[elehhhhna]

559. who asked?

you are the equivalent of the screaming restaurant child on this thread. is that on purpose?

[saltpoint]

560. I actually have a pretty quiet voice.

Not surprisingly, you're weighing in on the side of hyper-control.

[elehhhhna]

563. common-sense + good manners + smart parenting = hyper-control. got it.

[saltpoint]

564. Let's not think quite so highly of our human selves.

Kids make noise. I see no way to stop them from making it. They make it for more than one reason and in more than one place.

[grace0418]

581. Don't bother dear. Before you know it you'll be treated to posts about Surealist painters and

putting children on airplane wings. Logic doesn't work on some people.

[grace0418]

580. Illogical arguments don't warrant a thoughtful response.

You want me to explain something that exists only in your mind.

[Raineyb]

590. Why should she? The topic at hand is the restaurant. You want to toss a straw man into the

conversation you can answer your own damn question. She's under no obligation to do so. Considering you're only brought up the topic to be an ass I wouldn't answer it either if I were her. Did the sign hit too close to home for you? Perhaps a rethink is in order...for YOU.

[saltpoint]

591. Goodness, Raineyb. The point at hand is whether

unruly little kids should be tolerated in public places. One North Carolina restaurant opened the discussion, but little kids very likely are noisy and unruly in many other places, as has been pointed out all over this thread, had you been reading it carefully.

It could be a restaurant in Omaha. Or in Dayton. Or a grocery store aisle in Dallas or Cleveland or Hartford. It could be just about anyplace, couldn't it? Just about anyplace, that is, where there are little kids and a variety of parenting styles and parent traning and parent talent to administer to those little kids.

Other adults have few real options in these circumstances, and even less, I'm suggesting, on cross-continental flights. On the Delta flight in question, I'm suggesting that to remove a noisy child from an airplane would involve a logistical impossibility. That would appear to leave confrontation of some kind as the only option for other adult passengers. It's not all that different from a restaurant in Noth Carolina -- Olde Salty's posted sign notwithstanding -- because it still comes down to parental training and talent and instinct.

A lot of kids are pretty well behaved in the public square. I would have loved to have read posts in a thread praising their parents for their ability to inspire control and courtesy rather than one in which the first shot fired was so demonstrably divisive.

[Raineyb]

600. Well if YOU had been paying attention you'd have seen the numerous posts by people talking

about how their parents taught them the importance of behaving themselves and the stories of parents who pulled their children out of such situations in the first place.

You decide to make asinine arguments about sticking children on the wings of planes. That's YOUR deal. The conversation is about public places where people can actually leave the situation if need be which as you ought to know by now is not the case on an airplane. As this is such a ridiculous stretch, I can only guess that you went there because you know you've acted in a way in the past that would have inspired such a sign. No one is obligated to help you work out your issues and throwing straw men into the conversation doesn't help any at all. No one has the right to allow their children to behave in a disruptive manner in public and apparently enough parents don't have enough common sense or decency to do what is needed, pull the children out of the situation until such time that their children can behave correctly. Otherwise the sign wouldn't have been put up in the first place. There is no excuse for these parents selfishly and negligently ignoring their misbehaving children at the expense of both the child and the other diners in the restaurant and your need to make excuses and come up with absurd conclusions based on confinement when the conversation was about a restaurant where confinement isn't an issue at all says more about YOU than it does about those you want to complain about by implying they're child-hating freaks.

[saltpoint]

601. I'm not picking up any trend of posters who want

poor parenting.

If it's required, I'll officially state that I'm for great parenting. All of us are parents, or children, or uncles or grandmothers, or something or other in the great network of families, aren't we?

So if you require a statement of official preference, I'm for a perfect world, one in which there is abiding peace and well-ordered children behaving as model kids.

As has been suggested in other posts, I see no real efficient or effective options for other adults who find themselves in a grocery store aisle or a North Carolina restaurant, the Olde Salty's sign notwithstanding, to quell unruly children who are at the table of parents whose parenting is less evolved.

And there is an excuse for that kind of parenting, whether you and I like that kind of parenting or not, and that is that you can't lightswitch their parenting talents to accommodate other parents' abilities. You can't. You can't do it in a restaurant or in an airplane or in the grocery store. You can't and I can't and nobody else can either.

You could walk over to the unruly table and try to intervene. That works once in a while, yes, but once in a while, it results in someone getting their face punched. Generally parents, whether you and I think they're good parents or not, don't care to be told how to behave. That's actually the case whether they have kids or not.

Or, you could call on the manager of the restaurant or store to lower the boom and insist that quiet be restored. Sometimes you'll get an effective manager who will intervene and who knows how to mitigate unruly children and what to say to the kid's parents. But at other times, a manager might say, "Hey, all our patrons are paying customers. It's not that loud." Do you stand there and argue that it IS that loud? Do you threaten a law suit? Do you trash the joint?

Your options are limited. They're limited in part because no two parenting styles will be exactly the same and the zone of comportment you argue for is not universally realizable.

[Raineyb]

611. You mean besides yours? n/t

[saltpoint]

624. You've offered no response to real-life circumstances

in which some parents, thankfully not all, are less evolved in controlling their kids than others.

You're quick at the personal retort, but have offered no strategies to address the problem posed in the original post.

I'd certainly be willing to discuss that topic with you, if you'd like.

[Raineyb]

644. Ah, that undserved sense of entitlment again You are not entitled to an

answer to your ridiculous straw-man. I thought I made that clear awhile ago. Do you need it translated into another language before you understand?

[grace0418]

595. "Did the sign hit too close to home for you?" Bingo.

Because sometimes in certain very specific circumstances it would be difficult to find somewhere to calm their unruly child, then it must be okay to let them behave like feral animals whenever and wherever they damn well please. After all, kids are loud and there is ABSOLUTELY nothing ANYONE can EVER do about it, least of all Mom or Dad. Heaven forbid Mom and Dad be forced to cut their meal short by one second and parent their children. Nope, it's up to everyone else to indulge their God-given right to enjoy a meal no matter what.

[saltpoint]

598. grace, you keep running from a few basic realities.

How are you going to make those moms and dads do your bidding?

You go into a place. Another table's kids are unruly. You sense the parents to be inadequate to the task of controlling their kids.

Do you confront the parents? Do you appeal to the restaurant manager? Do you insist that that family be tossed outside? Do you see a court injuntion? Do you vow to drive by their home and firebomb their house?

What are your options?

As as been suggested in other posts, you don't have too many more options in a restaurant than you do on the cross-continental airplane ride. You are arguing that parents should inspire control in their children. Lovely. I'm all for it. The trick is how to be an adult when you have no control over their parenting.

[grace0418]

606. You talking about reality? That's rich. n/t

[saltpoint]

607. I'm not rich. We're a frugal bunch in almost all of our

family tree, though. We value an old-fashioned savings account, for example.

[grace0418]

610. Tell me again how your responses aren't willful ignorance?

Of course, by way of explanation I'd probably get a dissertation on 19th Century crop rotation or the mating behaviors of nurse sharks.

[saltpoint]

612. I'm not up on shark sex, sorry. There are likely

web sites dedicated to it, though, if you want to hunt them down.

I would posit that most of us on these boards are well within the zone of civility when we are in public. Restaurants, stores, and so forth.

The original post in fact included "airplane," which established the context of the issue of unruly little kids.

Several posters have indicated that unruly adults, of which there are quite a few, are not referenced in the Olde Salty's sign. Only "screaming children."

My position hasn't changed. Kids are noisy. They are often unruly. Parents differ from household to household in how to respond to that unruly conduct.

You and I do not control those households. We have perhaps controlled our own on close to our own terms and very possibly to our own satisfactions, but our jurisdiction stops at the end of the driveway. After that point, the real world kicks in in a big way and there is no assurance of parental control over unruly children and no assurance that adults with or without children will behave in a civil manner.

I can be quite willful when someone is being victimized but I am not, generally speaking, so terribly ignorant that I can't make distinctions, as you imply.

Your posts in this thread appear to assert that control is an attainable goal by you and others over parents with unruly children in public venues. I don't find that control to be attainable and I do find that options to attain it are highly limited and often completely ineffective.

[grace0418]

615. 47. Winterize. Zebra.

Oh, I thought we were playing word salad again. My bad.

[saltpoint]

617. I'm still eager to see your plan for parent re-training

and control of unruly children in public places, grace.

[grace0418]

631. I'm eager to see you make a coherent argument not based on some fantasy world in your head.

I guess we just don't always get what we want do we?

[saltpoint]

636. Some of us do, yes. It helps to be connected with

several international drug cartels with front "offices" in several dozen major U.S. cities.

But by god you'd be surprised how quick the red tape disappears.

[grace0418]

521. I'm being generous in saying it's a silly argument. At BEST it's silly, at worst

it's willful ignorance to equate a situation that cannot be controlled (i.e. child crying on a flight) with a situation that can and should be controlled by the parent but all too often is not (i.e. child melting down in a restaurant and parent goes on with the meal subjecting everyone else to child's behavior)? I never, ever once tried to personally tell you or anyone else how to manage a child on a flight to Oakland or anywhere else. Not only are you equating things that do not equate, but you're putting words into my mouth as well.

I do not personally tell people how to behave in public (even in situations when something can be done about it). However I applaud a business owner putting some rules in place so that ALL his or her patrons can enjoy their experience, not just the kids who are allowed to hijack everyone else's day. I do wish all adults had enough common sense and manners to take their kids outside before it came to this, but that clearly isn't the case.

If you cannot see the difference, then like I said earlier there is no point in continuing this discussion. If you can see the difference but you want to keep making this silly argument for whatever reason, then there is still no point in continuing this discussion.

[saltpoint]

545. Sure you do tell people how to behave in public, as

witnessed by your posts in this thread.

Grace.

You don't have control over things like this. Children cry and carry on, sometimes for attention and other times for reasons you and I cannot know just by observing them across a restaurant floor or a retail store aisle. All your posts are saying is that you don't want there to be little kids who are out of control. How is that revelatory? How is it even sentient? Little kids are GOOD at being out of control.

Some parents are good at parenting in those situations, and some are not.

That's how it is.

I would kindly suggest that you buck up and navigate the real world, which happens to include some millions of noisy little kids. There's no distinction to be made, as you seem to suggest, except that by the time most people are ten or twelve years old, they know that real young kids carry on and that generally speaking a significant majority begin to mature and behave more calmly and more courteously toward others, including in public places.

I would call that growing up.

[grace0418]

579. Nevermind, I'm going with willful ignorance. And even that's being generous. n/t

[saltpoint]

588. If people like you weren't generous, grace, why

we would all be consumed with unmitigated despair.

Thank Jesus you're here!

[grace0418]

596. Okay, you win.

Let your kid behave like a howler monkey in heat wherever and wherever he or she wants. God forbid anyone deny you the chance to enjoy a meal.

And when waitress who trips over your kid and spills hot coffee on herself asks why you can't control your child, tell that story about Surrealist painters and demand to know why she's suggesting you put your child on the wing of an airplane. That's my favorite.

[saltpoint]

599. I invoked the Surrealists to try to get you to engage

the problem at hand, but it didn't work.

You want control and you want it right now and in all circumstances.

I was suggesting, to no apparent avail, that as adults we do not ever have full control. There are degrees of control in parenting, most certainly.

[grace0418]

609. Maybe if you'd invoked the post-Modernists or Fauvists it would've been much

more relevant to the topic of children behaving in restaurants.

Oh wait, except it's not at all.

[saltpoint]

613. Perhaps if you'd tell us all how you plan to leverage

control of unruly children in public places, you could, you know, persuade us that you know what you're talking about.

I don't believe that control can be leveraged.

[grace0418]

616. Oh I leave that up to you, the expert, since you seem to think I've made such claims.

Please explain how I plan to do it, I'm fascinated.

[saltpoint]

620. I asked you how you'd handle it, and you still haven't

explained.

One is left to guess that you don't know how you'd handle it.

Seriously. The circumstances occur in North Carolina and elsewhere. In stores and on planes and so forth.

What will you do, grace, when this happens? Refuse to eat at any restaurant that does not post signs like the one in North Carolina? Do you even live in North Carolina? Because gas is expensive and the back-and-forth expenses for many would be prohibitive. What about a busload of high schoolers who roll into Wedny's on the way back fro a soccer tournament? What if they're noisy? Are you going to approach the coach and demand discipline? Are you going to slap the offending noisy athletes themselves? Stomp out in a huff?

Let's hear your plan.

[grace0418]

632. Please, be my guest. You clearly know what I'm thinking enough to put words in my mouth.

So please, fish around in my head and explain it to everyone for me. I'm tired from trying to find a shred of rational thought in your posts.

[saltpoint]

637. It's your turn, Grace. Take a crack at it.

[grace0418]

639. Nope. Irrational requests do not warrant or deserve rational responses.

[Silent3]

503. +1! n/t

[elehhhhna]

558. got 2 words for you --

cargo hold

[saltpoint]

562. It's been suggested, already, in a concurrent DU

thread, but hey, thanks for weighing in!

[Swamp Rat]

402. I often got really upset when I didn't get my martini olives

By age three, I was a martini olive connoisseur (I preferred vodka rather than gin, with only a dash of vermouth), and often demanded that all adults present must relinquish their martini marinated olives to me or face a severe penalty. :evilgrin:

[Mimosa]

461. Did you grow up in New Orleans?

Clever kid!

I read this topic and remember when I was a toddler during the mid to late 1950s. At about age 5 most kids were completely trained for 'nice restaurants.' Before that parents trained us. And they traded baby-sitting favours so they could go out now and then to nice places.

[Swamp Rat]

476. Yes, where bars and restaurants were usually one establishment

It's still that way, but we have a lot less mom and pop stores (some are coming back).

When I was growing up the only place children were not allowed was Pat O'Brian's (and the strip clubs), and boy did that royally piss me off 'cause I wanted a hurricane too. I thought I was an adult by age 3... "Fais do-do, child!!" :D

Much like France and Spain, children were allowed to be around adults drinking in bars as long as we were there to eat in the restaurant. This was not taboo like the rest of puritanical America. It has changed somewhat, except for some of the small family establishments, after too many yankees and rednecks moved here.

Nevertheless, we still have our Afro-Euro-Carib mojo, praise be to Papa Legba and Marie Laveau!! O8)

[Mimosa]

484. You know that's my hometown

ATL 's best restaurants aren't as good as NOLA's middle of the road. And you can't buy beer and wine in the groceries on Sundays. The grocers don't sell liquor either.

Lord, I miss Dorignacs. Even Zuppardo's. Le Crepe Nanou, Liuzzo's, Mona's, Kim Son, Five Happiness, Irene's....Bruning's, now gone...and so many good places.

[saltpoint]

491. Well, ok, if we're talking martini olives, sure, an exception

will be made for any and all tantrums.

Understood.

- - -

:hi:

[InvisibleTouch]

359. Good for them! I approve. n/t

[valerief]

366. One way to keep kids out of a restaurant--add go-go dancers and say patrons need to be 18 or older.

[JCMach1]

367. America hates children...! sometimes people need to chill the frak out!

I used to think America liked children until I moved to the Arab world where children, if anything, are over-beloved. Little kids ride their scooters around malls, play with balls, generally enjoy life and as long as no destruction is going on everyone loves it and will probably give the little guy a pat on the head.

My girls are older now, but I seriously got tired of the walking on eggshells so as not to disturb anyone BS when they were growing-up back home.

[LostinVA]

373. America does not hate children

Nor do 99% of the people in this thread, including me. I like kids alot, but when I'm eating out, I don't want them running around, hitting me in the back of the head, kicking me, or screaming like crazed banshees. My sister and I never acted like that, nor my niece and nephew, even when they were toddlers. If they acted up, which was rare, an adult took them out, talked to them, walked them around, then came back in, and this was in family places like K & W or IHOP.

[pipi_k]

387. Cultural differences don't translate to "hate" or "love"

If you've ever noticed, people in the Arab world also tend to stand closer to each other when talking...i.e. have smaller boundary "bubbles" than we in the West do.

Does the larger boundary "bubble" here translate to "Americans hate other people" as well?


It's a different culture here, and that's the way it is. If one knows what the cultural standards are and willfully ignores them, such as letting one's kids disturb others in public, then that doesn't automatically translate to "love". IMO, it merely means the parents don't give a shit about their kids being able to function effectively in their own culture.

[Warren DeMontague]

457. No, but a segment of DU has a serious pole up the ol' bung where kids are concerned.

Really, it's astounding.

[Mimosa]

462. America indulges children like no other culture

You're not the only person who has travelled, JCMach1. U.S. kids are more spoiled. And they are louder.

[Codeine]

486. You have it backwards.

Americans spoil the living hell out of their little monsters, and it shows in their ill behavior and complete inability to act like decent humans. Have you ever seen European children in a restaurant? They eat, engage in age-appropriate conversations, and comport themselves in a manner that is childlike without being disruptive.

Meanwhile American kids are throwing their toys across Denny's and demanding more syrup at the top of their lungs. I actually like kids, but they require parenting, and most Americans are oblivious to that fact.

[JCMach1]

506. It's about expectations... Denny's is a family restaurant... Did you not expect kids there?

I used to really get sick back home of the 'you've got kids' stink eye. My girls have always been awesome when out, but I have had people virtually walk out and make asshole comments about kids when we have sat down to eat in some places.

Sorry, but that shit pisses me off. It is hatred and insensitivity, period.

The cultural difference is that no one would pull that kind of stunt, here... ever. It just wouldn't happen no matter if the child were swinging off the furniture.

As for misbehaving people when eating out, the absolute worst cases I have ever seen have all been adults (usually drunken ones).

So hell yeah, I am taking my kids out to eat. Deal with it.

[pipi_k]

508. Well, if they did it as soon as you all sat down, then that's not right...

because they were probably prejudging your family based on other unpleasant experiences. Unfortunate, but that's what happens.

Which is why it's important for people who do have well-behaved (in public) children to speak out against parents who allow their kids to act like animals.


I have to admit that I'm one of those people who sees a family with kids walk into a restaurant and automatically thinks, "Oh shit...here we go!!"

I'm also glad to admit that there have been times when I was wrong and the kids were extremely well behaved.

:)

[JCMach1]

537. But that's just is wrong with the whole proposition- no civility about any of it

People need to expect kids to make reasonable kid noise. At the same time, and many is the time, if Junior or Missy start rolling on the floor simply remove them from the situation.

But the restaurant is just as badly behaved as any asshole parent.

[LWolf]

370. I can argue both sides of this one all day.

But I see I don't need to, lol.

[BlueCollar]

394. Good...n/t

[AngryAmish]

401. Crotch fruit

Has anyone used the term "crotch fruit" yet? It tends to crop up in these discussions. And no, I will not read this thread.

[yella_dawg]

406. Approximately 15% of the population...

Approximately 15% of the population can be classified as a "highly sensitive person". For those people, screaming children become literal torture. Really. It's a neurological thing. Personally, under such conditions, I have to leave the area immediately to avoid a panic attack that can last for hours. In extreme situations, I can go into collapse so severe I cannot speak or walk, and I become the screaming baby.

This isn't simply a matter of parenting choices. Loud, aggressive children can become a severe health (physical and mental) hazard for some people in some situations. I cannot fly, for instance. I have no disability. I fall within the normal range of human sensitivity, though at the extreme end of normal, I suppose. Unfortunately, A brat child can severely impact my health well-being for a considerable period and I have no recourse other than vigilant avoidance.

[pipi_k]

414. And people don't realize that...

almost any over stimulation can set it off.

Too hot...too cold...bright lights... etc.


I've been this way for as long as I can remember, so at the age of 57, I've got lots of experience.

There are even certain adult voices, like on TV commercials or whatever, that sound like fingernails on blackboard to me and I have to get rid of them.

so anyway, there was this one time a few years back when I allowed Mr Pip to drop me off at a small Family Dollar store while he went somewhere else that I totally cannot deal with. This doesn't happen often, as I don't like the feeling of being "stranded" with no means of escape. I was feeling very anxious anyway, but what made it worse was the mom with the kid who kept screaming and hollering and crying at the top of its lungs because the mom wouldn't buy a bunch of things the kid wanted. The store is small anyway, but I did try to get as far away as possible, walking away from the source of the noise. But no matter when I went, it seemed like the woman and her kid were following me around the store. It was awful, and after a few minutes I had to resist the urge to drop my basket and go hide in the stock room in back. By time Mr P came to pick me up, I was a wreck.

[K8-EEE]

408. "Well Behaved Children Are Welcome" would be nicer

The sign does hit me as overly-negative and would be off-putting. I probably wouldn't go in with or without children because the management seems cranky, although I do agree with the idea parents controlling their kids in restaurants.

I have two kids and the autistic one had a hard time at restaurants as a small child. We would take two cars -- if she acted up I would cancel our orders or have my husband bring them to go, and get her out of there. After a couple of times she learned she had to give 1000% effort to behave and be quiet or she would be taken home and have to wait another hour to eat.

I certainly don't think autism is an excuse to annoy other diners, at the same time, I wanted her to be able to eat out socially. Now as a teenager she loves going out to eat and has very nice restaurant manners and is a favorite customer. And these days we take one car!

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

413. That's called being a good parent

There are too many people in this country who expect everyone else to teach their kids lessons for them.

[Mimosa]

467. K8-EEE, you are so right about the language

You sound like a first class parent, K8-EEE. All kids should have an understanding and wise mom like you. Best wishes to your daughter. :)

[Count Olaf]

410. What about pissy arrogant idiotic adults?

I would rather listen to a child's normal noise than most of the adult idiots I hear these days.


When my kiddos were really young, I didn't take them to restaurants because children are not programmed to 'sit on ass' like adults and why would I make them sit there and eat and be quiet for 45 minutes just because I didn't feel like cooking? It would take less energy to make something at home and let the kids relax after school or whatever.

Why would a parent spend so much money on 'dinner'(and you don't really think it is healthy just because it is a restaurant?) when the kids just wants a peanut butter sandwich and then there are off to do something more important.

It is adults that are trained to sit for long hours, focused on their food and atmosphere of silence. I personally would rather spend my time with children. They have more interests than food, have more hobbies and fascinating ideas about things. It is the adults that are confused and poorly focused.

Why do adults take children to church to sit still and listen to some priest? The children would rather be at home running through God's green grass under God's blue skies praising God's ears with beautiful children's laughter.

I think the adults are the ones who are screwed up and judging from the judgemental on this thread, I would much rather spend my time with children.

[JanMichael]

492. Fuck them too! nt.

[saltpoint]

547. Good point. There are some emphatically boorish

adults, often chemically altered and often just outright jerks sans chemistry, who behave far worse than most 4-year olds.

'Went to the premier of an 'R' rated film in New York City. Maybe 20 minutes into the feature the projector must have gone out because the screen went blank. An adult, allowed into the 'R' movie BECAUSE he was an adult, stood up in the middle of the theater aisle, hollered, "Fuck this shit!", and then took his shoe off and threw it at the screen.

And very few kids of tantrum age hold driver's licenses, but some of the most petty, combative, and selfish behavior I've ever seen has been from adult drivers on the highways of major cities.

[Name removed]

412. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cleanhippie]

424. Nope, not long at all.

Fortunately, the poster who pulled that card failed to significantly hijack the thread with that nonsense.

[superduperfarleft]

430. That's because he's notorious for posting a knee-jerk response without reading the thread,

then disappearing when people attempt to engage him. So the lack of hijack is certainly not for a lack of trying.

[KamaAina]

474. You do realize that's a Michael Savage talking point, right?

You: For once, I just want one parent to be honest and admit their kids are brats.

Savage Weiner:

http://mediamatters.org/research/200807170005

On the July 16 edition of his nationally syndicated radio show, Michael Savage claimed that autism is "(a) fraud, a racket." Savage went on to say, "I'll tell you what autism is. In 99 percent of the cases, it's a brat who hasn't been told to cut the act out. That's what autism is. What do you mean they scream and they're silent? They don't have a father around to tell them, 'Don't act like a moron. You'll get nowhere in life. Stop acting like a putz. Straighten up. Act like a man. Don't sit there crying and screaming, idiot.' " Savage concluded, "(I)f I behaved like a fool, my father called me a fool. And he said to me, 'Don't behave like a fool.' The worst thing he said -- 'Don't behave like a fool. Don't be anybody's dummy. Don't sound like an idiot. Don't act like a girl. Don't cry.' That's what I was raised with. That's what you should raise your children with. Stop with the sensitivity training. You're turning your son into a girl, and you're turning your nation into a nation of losers and beaten men. That's why we have the politicians we have."

If any parent should be admitting his or her kid is a brat, it certainly isn't my Mom!

[Kajsa]

478. +1

Thank you, KamaAina.
:)

That response does sound like Savage!

[dkf]

420. Next thing they will be banning screaming kids from airplanes.

That should kill Disneyland.

[whathehell]

431. Aw, hell...Disneyland can run it's own airlines. n/t

[NeedleCast]

422. As A Person Who Worked in Restaurants A Long Time

I think it's sad that it's come to this. Most adults I saw were smart enough and empathetic enough to realize if their child was being disruptive and remove said child until they could be calmed down. On the other hand, it's typical of Americans to think they have some sort of inherent right to never hear, see or smell anything that might disturb them.

I've deblt with just about every customer that you can imagine but the ones (of tens of thousands) that stick in my head the most are the ones with poorly-behaved children who seem to run the house. They're the parent's whos kids are throwing food against the walls or at other customers while their parents look on (usually in beaten silence) and when I finally have to step in have the audacity to tell me "that's just how children behave." No, it's not, because I've seen the majority of cases where children actually do behave that make it clear that it's you sucking as a parent, not the kid, that is at issue.

[DWilliamsamh]

428. all i can say is it's about frickin' time!

If I ever get down there....i will look for that place for sure.


Signed,

A parent who either didn't take a cranky kid out, or left before we interfered with other folks good time.

[snooper2]

432. I think a few people need to watch a couple episodes of SuperNanny

:rofl:

This thread is greatness...I'm glad I waited till it got over 400 replies to click on it :P


I think I am going to donate so I can start a weekly thread, greatest thread of the week :)

[joshcryer]

442. I hope it gets to 5000 posts!

[LostinVA]

451. I posted that yesterday -- this is the best thread in forever!

[LostinVA]

452. I posted that yesterday -- this is the best thread in forever!

[Warren DeMontague]

441. The name of the fucking restaurant is "Olde Salty". If that doesn't scream fine dining experience,

I don't know what does.

Yes, I'm a parent. If my kids are causing a disruption, I'm all over getting them out of other peoples' hair.

But I could have predicted what would happen in this thread- once the anti-kid faction on DU gets on a good tear--- like the people barely able to contain their glee when the stranger assaulted the 2 year old in the wal-mart for screaming.



"Oh, goodness.... I would never hit someone's kid, BUT I TOTALLY COMPLETELY UNDERSTAND!!!!!..."




Honestly? Yes, screaming kids should be removed from a public place until they calm down, whenever possible... that's the reasonable thing to do as a parent- but the reflexive, entitled attitude of some adults demanding that their eating experience be completely free of children being, well, children... :eyes: Okay, if the sight of children bugs you so much, eat in a bar, then.

[valerief]

446. I wonder if they'd let this screamy guy in there.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x503383

He was the one running for county treasurer. A real screamer.

[awoke_in_2003]

463. as has been said...

I would gladly eat there. I am tired of going to restaraunts where parents cannot control their special little creatures

[tabasco]

471. My kind of restaurant!

Too many parents won't control their screaming little brats.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

480. Always a good time to break out the Cosby classic: "Jeffery"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fs0cYJUqJys

[Lucian]

481. Oh I want to eat at that restaurant!

Thank god someone did this! There's nothing more fucking annoying than eating at a restaurant and listening to someone's screaming kid(s)! It totally ruins the whole evening!

And the restaurant has every right to ban screaming kids. It's a privately owned business and they can do as they please with their rules.

[Synicus Maximus]

487. You can teach a dog to behave, a three year old is as smart as a

dog and can be taught to behave as well.

[mmonk]

490. Screaming children don't stay that way forever.

But when those children mature, I bet many parents that know of that sign still won't eat there later. It is a double edged sword.

[Amerigo Vespucci]

505. It only seems like forever when you're two feet away from them in a restaurant

It's all a matter of percentages, I guess...

...the percentage of parents who won't eat at the restaurant because of the sign versus the percentage of people without kids (or with well-behaved kids) who won't eat at the restaurant because of the screaming kids-friendly policy.

I don't see the "kids will be kids" mindset as an open invitation for parents to take their kids anywhere and everywhere and let them run like free-range, feral creatures. It's less of a reflection of what the kids are doing and more of a reflection of the "I don't give a rat's ass" mindset of the parents. There's no way to rationalize that.

And in a restaurant, it is not the same as a park or a playground or any other public space. The parents with screaming, out-of-control kids are screwing with an experience that the other patrons paid to enjoy.

[pipi_k]

507. So parents of screeching, out of control savages

who eventually grow out of it (which is doubtful) are going to "punish" restaurants for forcing them to insist that their kids act like civilized human beings in public?

Really?

Well, I shouldn't be surprised, actually. Yes, I can definitely see that happening.

However, from what I've seen, there are far more people who believe they have the right to enjoy their meals than there are parents who think they have the right to inflict their own behavior issues, via their children, on the rest of the world.

Once the kids are grown up, these parents are probably the same ones we'll hear talking at the tops of their voices on their cellphones.

Good riddance to them.

[Raineyb]

515. More likely than not those screaming children whose parents couldn't be bothered to

correct their behavior will cease being screaming children and turn into spoiled overly entitled teenagers with other maladjusted behaviors that make them unpleasant to be around.

[howaboutme]

556. Exactly

Parents that delay keeping their children respectful around others will end up with disrespectful unsuccessful children. That is the way life works.

Respect of others is something that children don't necessarily develop on their own. Screaming children in a restaurant usually indicates that there is a problem with both parents and children. If your children are disruptive you simply remove them from premises so they don't disrupt others. That teaches them two things, 1/ that their behavior is unacceptable and 2/ that as parents you will not tolerate unacceptable behavior.

[Warren DeMontague]

498. I found him! I found "Olde Salty!"

[lukasahero]

504. When I was young, if I misbehaved in a restaurant

my parents took me and left. My parents never hit me, I don't remember ever being spanked. But I learned quickly that if I wanted the treat of eating out, I had to behave.

:shrug:

[LostinVA]

527. +1

[Taitertots]

516. A screaming child has no business in a restraunt

It is pathetic that we even need stuff like this. Parenting has deteriorated so much that this is becoming nessessary.

[tammywammy]

518. What's worse is the people defending it

"kids will be kids" :eyes:

[grace0418]

522. As I said earlier, my hunch is that those defending it are those who engage in such

behavior and let their children hijack everyone else's day.

[LostinVA]

528. You got it

I've worked too much public service to know you speak the truth!

[smokey nj]

520. I wish the owner of the restaurant where I used to work had instituted this policy.

We had one family that visited regularly that was an absolute nightmare. Their older child, a daughter wasn't too bad, although I once saw her provoke her brother into an outburst on one of the few occasions when he was actually behaving. But their son, who was about 6 or 7, was hell on wheels. He screamed. He ran around the place - sometimes weilding knives and forks he'd snatched from other tables, sometimes not. If I saw him running with utensils, I took them away from him because his parents never did. One time he even locked himself in the bathroom. I HATED when they came in and couldn't wait for them to leave.

I don't know if their son was autistic or had ADHD, but I do know that his mother's (dad, when he was with them, never did a damned thing) attempts to control him were half-hearted at best. I had sympathy for her as she was obviously overwhelmed, but I had more sympathy for the other diners who made the unfortunate decision to drop by our little restaurant while this family was there.

[AnArmyVeteran]

523. Screaming children should be arrested for disturbing the peace.

And their parents too.

Seriously, when I go to a movie or out to eat I should not be subjected to children or babies crying. I spend my hard earned dollars to enjoy time away from the house. I believe it is rude of parents to keep a crying baby in a theater or a restaurant. No one can enjoy their meals or a movie with the ear piercing sounds of an out of control kid shreaking at the top of their lungs. How would the parents of those children like it if I went to their houses and screamed to disrupt their peace? If they can't control their children they should keep them at home until they can act somewhat civilized in public.

[Warren DeMontague]

551. If you go see the matinee of "Cloudy with a chance of meatballs", what do you expect?

Seriously, what movies and restaurants are you frequenting, and at what times, where you're constantly being subjected to yelling toddlers and crying babies? I'm curious.

Because the most obnoxious disruption I've come across in a movie theater in the past 10 years is some asshat adult on his or her cell phone.

[saltpoint]

569. That's not enough. They should be KILLED!

One little squeak in a public place and I say bulldoze them into a huge open grave!

May the Devil claim his own!

[AnArmyVeteran]

592. That's a bit harsh there buddy. Gitmo yes, but NOT bulldozing!

But when I hear that shreaking from a kid it's like ice picks are being shoved in my ears.

[saltpoint]

594. There's kind of a continuum of human selves that the

Olde Salty restaurant appears to be overlooking with his testy little sign, IMO.

Geroge Washington Carver talked about having grace in the face of that continuum -- the very young all the way to the very old -- citing the fact that almost all of us will have been one, then all, of those selves in the course of our lifetimes.

He called for an assessment of individuals based on their grace in the face of that continuum.

I'm not picking up a lot of Carver influence at the Olde Salty.

[AnArmyVeteran]

608. Thanks for that dose of reality and Mr Carver's wise words.

It's easy to lose perspective if we only look at how something only affects us and fail to look at the bigger picture. I admit I've been guilty of the later, especially during a disturbance.

Thanks again for the perspective...

[saltpoint]

614. And thank you for your service, sir.

:thumbsup:

[Raineyb]

618. Funny, you don't seem to be channeling Mr. Carver yourself. n/t

[saltpoint]

621. I conveyed Carver's context and applied it to the

OP's post.

I hope that's ok.

[Raineyb]

622. You don't need my permission. I just find it ironic that you'd make the invocation without

applying it to your own posts.

:shrug:

[saltpoint]

623. The application, including my own posts in this thread,

is universal, if Carver is right.

I would say he is right.

I don't pick up a lot of Carver influence, I said, at the Olde Salty restuarant in North Carolina.

[Raineyb]

645. You really are't in any position to chide people for not channeling Mr. Carver's influence

when you're shown yourself to be completely incapable of doing so your damn self. And you've shown yourself to be a lot further from said grace than the Olde Salty.

[saltpoint]

656. Am too.

[Better Believe It]

530. Let's do a poll! Here it is:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x9115814

[HuckleB]

533. As long as they also kick out the loud-mouthed adults, that's fine.

Screaming children are seldom as disturbing as many of the adults that enter such establishments. Somehow we give the adults a free ride.

[Ter]

542. A better sign would be "If you don't at least double the tax for a tip, don't come back"

n/t

[Warren DeMontague]

548. "Olde Salty" sounds like a dick.

No, really. It sounds like the kind of name George Burns would give his penis.

[begin_within]

565. I'm very glad to see it...

...but I wish they would extend it to screaming adults as well - especially those parties of thirtysomethings who seem to think that getting drunk on wine and collectively letting out piercing shrieks of laughter every 25 seconds is somehow appropriate behavior in a restaurant. In a bar or nightclub, maybe, or in a private home, of course, but in a restaurant? I want to pick up a plate and toss it like a frisbee in their faces whenever this happens. Grown adults acting like giddy teenagers with no concern for anyone else in the room is now the "standard protocol?" I think there is an expectation, or should be, that when you go to a restaurant that is open to the public, you have a reasonable expectation of NOT being aurally assaulted by strangers sitting 2 feet away.

[austin78704]

566. WOW!

Why in the hell is the screaming kids bullshit so important? This thread is huge all by itself and there are four fucking more just like it!

Amazing.

I have earplugs.

[Warren DeMontague]

583. Welcome to DU.

You should have seen the shitfit that ensued when people started talking about the KFC double down and the IHOP cheesecake-filled pancakes.

[saltpoint]

567. I think the issue could be solved by hooking kids up

to some kind of IV right there in the restaurant and they'd get a steady drip of high-dose Haldol AND nutrients.

And all of us excellent adults can kick back and enjoy each other conversation.

Problem solved.

[WolverineDG]

574. A little brandy in the baby bottle never hurt anyone nt

[saltpoint]

570. What if Brad & Angelina came in with their kids

and one of the kids pitched a fit?

Would the restaurant tolerate the child's fit because her or his parents were movie stars?

Or would Angelina & Brad be asked to leave owing to the child's breach of decorum?

Would all the other patrons agree that the child's temper-tantrum warrants eviction of the celebrity parents, or would some of the North Carolinians there gathered be willing to let it go in the bargain of dining with a Hollywood couple?

What if they asked them to leave and both Angelina and Brad got really angry and punched out the chef, and nobody got served from that point forward? Sure, there'd be charges filed, but hey, these folks can afford an attorney and a fine. Pocket change.

What then?

[saltpoint]

571. What if the Octomom came into that restaurant with

her kids?

Whoa.

[saltpoint]

575. Who here wouldn't pay double the ticket price to see

a film where Linda Blair, as the possessed demon child from THE EXORCIST, drops by the Olde Salty Restaurant in Carolina Beach for lunch?

[taterguy]

597. Me

[saltpoint]

602. Ok, but if the film goes on to win a lot of Oscars,

you will have truly missed out.

[taterguy]

603. English Patient won a lot of Oscars, I have no regrets about not seeing it

[saltpoint]

605. I didn't dislike it, but it didn't speak to me especially.

Not the worst thing out there, not really the best either.

But Linda Blair at the Olde Salty... that would be one for the ages.

[taterguy]

651. If I'm ever really bored I'll watch in on Netflix

[pipi_k]

633. And who here would be too afraid

to complain about this kid?





:+

[saltpoint]

638. Wow. I'd say there's a hint of Oppositional Defiant

Disorder at work there, wouldn't you?

Also, why is he shaving at such a young age and why is he using a hatchet to do it?

Yeeks.

[pipi_k]

642. Shaving...good one!

I thought maybe looked that way because his parents let him cut his own meat.


:7

[saltpoint]

653. Maybe he was asked to design Lady Gaga's outfit this

past weekend and things just got out of hand...

[TexasObserver]

577. Poor parenting is the issue here.

And most of us recognize that, especially those of us who have raised children to adulthood. They don't raise themselves, and if you don't require them to learn to be respectful of others, they won't. Most misbehaving children are made, not born. They come from parents who never learned how to take their child out when said child will not behave.

Unless it is a kid friendly place, the child has to conform to the expectations of the adult patrons. Any parent who is unwilling to accept that should find a different place to patronize.

[grace0418]

582. Exactly, but even in a kid-friendly place a certain level of behavior should be

maintained if for no other reason than safety. There was a restaurant in my neighborhood that made the news a few years ago for this same problem. It's definitely what you'd call a family place that serves breakfast and desserts and such. The owner's point was, yes children are welcome, but when they are running around at top speed, laying on the floor in front of the dessert case, throwing food and knocking into people and tables they are a safety hazard to themselves, other patrons and the staff. He said that wait staff has tripped over children, spilled food and even hot coffee after getting rammed by a running child, and patrons have been beaned by flying toys and food. You should have seen how up in arms some people got over it. Yet who would be the first people suing if their little angel got burned or injured?

Years later, the place is still in business and always packed, and a MUCH more enjoyable place to visit now.