Now that Terry Jones has cancelled his Koran burning, I am pissed off!

[cleanhippie]

I detest with every fiber of my being his reasoning for wanting to burn the Koran, I think its short sighted, unnecessary and childish, BUT.....


I fully supported his Constitutional right to burn his own property for whatever reason he chose, and now that he has succumbed to the pressure not to follow through, I am pissed off that so many Americans would want to force another American LOSE his/her Constitutional freedoms.

[MrScorpio]

1. Maybe he can go scream "fire" in a crowded theater instead?

[Matariki]

4. Respectfully, it's really not the same.

It would only be the same if people who were offended by the word 'fire' did violence to their fellow theater-goers and you wanted to hold the person who yelled the word responsible for other's actions. The 'yelling fire in a theater' example refers specifically to causing panic that makes people run for the exit and potentially trample their fellow theater-goers. Panic and anger over being offended are two different animals.

That sort of reasoning can't go anywhere good. It will lead to censorship based on the reactions things cause in other people. A slippery slope. I thought that Danish cartoon and Piss Christ were disrespectful too, but wouldn't want to see either censored.

As stupid and hateful as burning books is - it doesn't justify or create responsibility for an equally stupid response.

If the man was going to his neighborhood mosque and burning something there it would be another story, but this really is a first amendment issue. He deserves to be criticized and shunned, and he *really* should be ignored by the media, but he's not breaking the law. Only common decency.

[cleanhippie]

21. Maybe.

But unless there is a fire, it may get him arrested.

Not really sure of your point.

[MrScorpio]

40. Just snark

Nothing serious. I can't let this shit keep bothering me.

[NoNothing]

2. That's how this "speech" thing is supposed to work

He was convinced by his opponents speech that they were right and he was wrong, and nobody had to resort to violence or government suppression. That is a WIN for free speech.

[cleanhippie]

22. Hmmmm, interesting view.

I hadn't thought of it that way.

[NYC Liberal]

3. Nobody has lost any Constitutional freedoms.

He has the right to do it.

Well people also have a right to speak THEIR minds about it. Nobody threatened him. The government didn't seize his property or arrest him to prevent him from doing it.

[cleanhippie]

23. "Nobody threatened him"

That not exactly true, now is it?

[Drale]

5. Im now wondering

what are they going to do with all those Quorans they bought that they are not going to burn them? Maybe they will read them and spread the message that Islam isnt that much different from Christianity.

[seabeyond]

6. meh... people can do all kinds of offensive things, like yell out n****, hurl vulgar crude

sexist comments to a woman, or any number of things. i hope there is societal pressure to shut them the fuck up

you might want to live in a society where there is no societal pressure. i prefer not to

and

it is also our constitutional right to yell back at his choice

[cleanhippie]

24. No, I agree

Societal pressure CAN be a good thing, but it should never be used to suppress Constitutional rights.

[county worker]

7. Discretion is the better part of valour

Origin
Shakespeare, in Henry IV, Part One, 1596:

Falstaff: 'The better part of valour is discretion; in the which better part I have saved my life.'

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

8. LOL

Poor, poor Terry Jones.

:crazy:

[Taverner]

9. Honestly, I think he called it off for two reasons

(1) - He made as much money off this as he could have

and

(2) - He was worried about his own ass being offed by someone as crazy as his followers

[Uzybone]

16. +1

[Donald Ian Rankin]

18. I think you mean "far crazier than".

How many of Pastor Jones's followers have committed murder on his behalf? There have been a few high-profile cases of Christian fanatics murdering people in the USA over the past few decades, but so far as I'm aware none of them were in any way connected to Pastor Jones. Certainly, I think that burning a book is far, far less crazy than shooting someone for doing so.

[cleanhippie]

25. I think that about gets it right.

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[The Northerner]

11. Well, free speech is free speech

[Green_Lantern]

12. so you're mad when people decide not to act like bigotted jerks...

Sure people have a right to say bigoted things but when they decide against doing so because people will get mad it's not censorship.

Free speech doesn't mean you get to decide how others react to it.

[cleanhippie]

28. Is that what you think I said?

Because its not, not at all.

[Green_Lantern]

48. you did say that..

You said you're mad that these morons were "forced" to not burn the Qur'an. First of all who forced them to not do it?

Secondly just because a person is free to be a bigot doesn't mean they should do it.

[cleanhippie]

51. No, I didn't.

I am pissed off that so many Americans would want to force another American LOSE his/her Constitutional freedoms.


Read that again, then get back to me.

[Green_Lantern]

52. yes you said that but failed to say what freedoms Jones lost...

Or who wanted to force him to lose his freedoms. I don't get what your complaint is.

[cleanhippie]

53. Lets discuss this again when your reading comprehension improves.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

13. I'm also against the freedom of expression of those who

expressed their expression that he shouldn't burn them books
as his freedom of Constitutional expression.

[GSLevel9]

14. he certainly has the RIGHT...

to do it... but it's neither wise nor prudent.

[cleanhippie]

29. And on that I agree.

[Hekate]

15. Maybe he could go burn a cross on your lawn to demonstrate he has the "right" to do that too

The fact that you would be terrorized? Meh.

It's a hate crime, not free speech.

Hekate

[Skidmore]

20. +1

Indeed.

[cleanhippie]

30. Who has the right to burn a cross on anothers lawn?

No one does, so uh, whats your point?

[Hekate]

43. My point is that those who believe burning holy books is a protected 1st Amendment right...

... are wrong. My reference to the KKK was deliberate. They used a religious symbol to terrify and threaten other people -- in this case, a cross, to which they thought they had exclusive claim as white Christians. That has been determined to be a hate crime iirc.

It is hate speech. It is a terroristic act. It is an incitement to violence. It's barbaric, superstitious, and a throwback to the Dark Ages. It's a lot of things.

Hekate

[cleanhippie]

44. I think you are wrong.

In Virgina v. Black, the SCOTUS ruled otherwise.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia_v._Black


And whether a book is "holy" or not is irrelevant, as its just a book, and if that book is the personal property of an individual, that individual can do with that book what he/she chooses, including burning it.



Hate speech? Probably, but protected speech nonetheless. Terrorist act? Hardly, and its that type of application of that word that has made it meaningless. Incitement to violence? Not in this case, as the guy was not calling on anyone to commit violent acts (he is not responsible for the actions of others who act in anger at his actions, as much as many would like that). Barbaric, superstitious and a throw back to the Dark Ages? You and I seem to agree then in our opinion of those "holy" books. Great description.

[mitchtv]

47. I disagree hardly terrorist

it should be legal. as a persecuted minority by religious groups I reserve my first amendment right to burn and or defile any religious bilge I have the misfortune to end up owning. you are free to disagree

[Dappleganger]

17. So you were looking forward to the ass clown show?

Then you've been had, too.

[cleanhippie]

50. No, I wasn't.

Did i say that?

[lame54]

19. Explain to me how his constitutional rights were violated

[cleanhippie]

31. Did I say that?

Because I didn't.

[fascisthunter]

26. WTF?! Nobody forced the man to do anything

they may have convinced him that what he was about to do would have negative consequences rather than anything positive. How the * could you misinterpret this as him being some victim?

[cleanhippie]

32. Where did I say he was a victim?

[fascisthunter]

35. having his rights taken away implies that he is a victim

you don't have to say it verbatim but you did imply it. It is what it is...

[cleanhippie]

36. Let me help you out

Here is the pertinent part of my post...

I am pissed off that so many Americans would want to force another American LOSE his/her Constitutional freedoms.


Where did I say he was a victim again?

[fascisthunter]

42. I missed the "would"

my apologies.

This whole thing is very ironic. This man is attacking freedom of religion by making Islam an enemy of this country. He would probably commit genocide on being following Islam is he had the power. Yet you are right to point out that this man has the right to protest by burning the Koran. I am not surprised if people did want to take his freedoms away but it hasn't happened. I hope he one day can see that the very freedom of religion he enjoys also belongs to those who read the Koran too. He doesn't have to agree with it but he better learn to respect their way if he wants the same in return. He could care less... he's a sociopath.

[cleanhippie]

45. Appreciated. And we are in complete agreement.

I'm glad you understand.

[nadinbrzezinski]

27. This man is NOT a victim

of anything...

[cleanhippie]

33. I never said he was

at all.

[nadinbrzezinski]

37. What rights did he lose?

Oh never mind...

[cleanhippie]

39. ok then.

[hiskooldropout]

34. FBI?

Somebody on some forum said that the FBI had paid him a visit. I haven't seen any corroboration of that. But as a hypothetical, would that be appropriate? To use such a big stick if it could save American lives in Afghanistan or in other Muslim countries? And to help tamp down the narrative of America as an Islam hating nation? Or is the principal of free speech so important that it should not bring in the involvement of the President, the Sec'y of State, the Sec'y of Defense, etc.? Geez, one looney tunes idiot in FL plus modern mass media..... a steaming heap served up on an electronic silicon plate worldwide.....

[nadinbrzezinski]

38. Yes they did this morning

per MSNBC

[ecstatic]

41. umm... they were probably warning him about potential threats to his life

They don't have authority to tell him what to do, but they *can* let him know that someone plans to fire bomb his church if the burning takes place.

[cynatnite]

46. Do you get pissed off when someone says something racist and the succumb to pressure...

and apologize for it?

Besides, he can still burn the Koran if he wants to bad enough. No one is stopping him.

People have a right to speak out against it and if he succumbs to the pressure as a result...that's what I call freedom, too.

[cleanhippie]

49. I agree.

But I never said the things you seem to think I did.