I went to my first church service in many years today and I was pleasantly surprised.

[elocs]

I had to take my 19 year old goddaughter who lives alone near me and has had a lot of personal problems. She has no friends here other than a couple of women who are well old enough to be her grandmother and she is lonely for kids her own age and the last thing she needs is to be brought down by those who choose to drink and/or do drugs because that would destroy her life.

So off we went to a nearby Evangelical Free church which has grown very large over the years. I went with my Liberal, agnostic, quasi-atheist chip on my shoulder prepared to be offended at any and every turn. Well I was not, not at all.

Years ago I remember this church as having maybe 50 members and meeting in a high school auditorium. Now it has hundreds of members and its own new building. It is very relevant and the new pastor who is maybe in his early 40s was dressed in jeans and a button down, untucked shirt. Very casual. A very vibrant and animated teacher who moved back and forth across the stage and really connected with the people.

No condemnation, nothing political, and uplifting. There was no way anyone could be bored or fall asleep. My goddaughter enjoyed it very much and I am hopeful she will make some friends from there.

I often see the tendency here at DU to lump all Christians and churches together as if they are all fundamentalist freeper enclaves with their mindless belief in a god that does not exist. No doubt there are thousands of DUers who are Christians, or otherwise believers in a god who do not fit that description either. I don't expect the DU attitude about religion to change, but I would hope for less of the broadbrush tarring of all religion as being exactly the same to hopefully lessen.

[cleanhippie]

1. What flavor of church was it?

I am an atheist that attends a Unitarian Universalist Fellowship occasionally.

[elocs]

7. It is an Evangelical Free church.

http://www.firstfree.org/

From the front page of their website:

welcome to First Free Church

First Free is a vibrant church home for many people…people with diverse backgrounds, varying needs, and even differing perspectives. We want First Free Church to be a place where you can come as you are, get your deepest questions answered, and even feel safe to struggle in your spiritual journey. Even though life is challenging we believe that there is hope and meaningful life-change available through a relationship with Jesus Christ.

It really is a come as you are church with some even wearing shorts and I can see how it is very appealing to young people. Nothing stodgy or staid about it. The pastor spoke using a headset mike and was not reading from notes, but was talking to the people. He said he believes in science and doctors and medicine, but as a religious person he has to believe in prayer also. He is also maybe the only one of the only ministers that I have ever heard who believe in prayer to admit that in praying for the sick that it is the exception that prayer works. But for a believing person who receives prayer it is comforting to them whether it works or not, a concept that few atheists are even willing to believe is possible.

[Warpy]

9. I'd ask to talk to the pastor first

and feel him out about whether or not the place ever does turn political, especially when it comes to women's rights. I'm afraid I have a skepticism over anything with "Evangelical" in the title, although I admit you might have found a rare place that is an exception to the general rule.

Also feel free to explore other congregations if you can do so without traveling half a day. The United Church of Christ and Unitarian Universalists are also welcoming of people with diverse backgrounds and are very un-churchy.

Not buying a word of religion is a far cry from insisting everyone not buy a word of religion. Most of us out here on the atheist fringe are quite tolerant of whatever gets our fellow citizens through the night and only request they are the same.

[bobbolink]

38. Jim Wallis is an Evangelical. You might want to look him up some time.

It really is important for all of us to loosen up a bit on labels.

We don't like it when the other side does it, and we are no better at it.

[BolivarianHero]

57. Even more oddly...

John Brown and the people who instituted the Apartheid regime in South Africa were all Calvinists.

Predestination is as crazy as that rapture crap though.

[bobbolink]

60. It was Evangelicals who were Abolishionists, Suffragetts, fought for children's rights, and many

more.

As a matter of fact, the "altar call" was instituted in order to sign people up for the Abolition movement!

[Warpy]

62. That's why I posted what I did

Wallis is an antiabortion freak along with the good stuff. I wouldn't want a young girl I cared about to put up with that garbage.

[bobbolink]

66. Once again you are wrong, but I wouldn't want to confuse you with the facts.

You know, you used to be one of the more reasonable DUers.... seems you've joined the ranks of those who like to call names and inflame discussions.

[Warpy]

67. I've noticed people resort to ad hominem attacks

when they realize they're clearly in the wrong.

[cleanhippie]

10. Ahh, but it IS a "christian" church, right?

Considering they feel that "jesus" is the only way.

Not trying to be snarky or confrontational, I just wanted to know what the flavor was.

[elocs]

19. Yes, it is a Christian church and that's where Christians go.

Muslims go to a mosque and Jews go to a synagogue. Christianity is not unique in thinking their way is the only way. The difference is in how condemning a church is of those who do not believe and I did not find that in this church. All in all if I have to take my goddaughter to a Christian church I am pretty satisfied with this one which if vibrant and alive, has lots of young people, and is not condemning.

Also, look at all the divisions within the Christian church and how they differentiate themselves from one another in one way or another. Otherwise why would you go to a church a mile away rather than one a couple of blocks away if they all believed the same? (In early Christianity the church division was by geography, city.)

[MattBaggins]

64. What?

"But for a believing person who receives prayer it is comforting to them whether it works or not, a concept that few atheists are even willing to believe is possible."

Nonsense. Every Atheist is aware of the placebo effect.

[AmericanMan1958]

2. Belief is good

No matter what you may believe or not.
Morals of helping and treating other with love, respect is always a good thing.
If you decide to take those morals and combine it to a religious belief that is a personal matter.

I believe myself to be a religious.
I have always be involved in some form of leadership and thus politics.
During times of tough decision, I have always fell back to one basic belief.

That is:
If you are doing God's will, it can not be stopped.
Man's will on the other hand has little chance.

That basic belief has served me and those I have represented well over the years.

Being this church you attended has grown so large, and you had a meaningful experience. God's will must be flourishing.

on the other hand...
Look at Terry Jones in Florida.... (50 members}
Man's will does not have a chance.

Glad to hear you had a great experience...
seldom hear of that any more...

[cleanhippie]

11. How do you tell the difference

between "doing gods will" and "doing mans will"?

[Fumesucker]

13. If I read the post correctly .. It depends on the size of the church..

Small church.. Man's will.

Big church.. God's will.

Seems pretty simple to me.

[cleanhippie]

15. Ahh, got it.

Thats the measure I use to discern between a cult and a religion....the size of the congregation.

[elocs]

23. That's an inaccurate measure because some cults are very small.

It makes it easier to keep the people in line. There were fewer than 30 Branch Davidians under David Koresh. Yet the Mormon church has over 5 million members and many of the traditional Christian churches consider it to be a cult.

A cult is not about size, it is about ceding personal control of your life to a religious movement and/or to a religious leader who claims to have the only way and seeks to cut you off from all who do not believe the same. It isolates its members from friends and family which makes it more easy for them to be controlled by the cult. Cults tend to have a paranoid us against them mentality and do not want its members to think for themselves.

[elocs]

22. That may be an over-simplification. This church does seem to have a heart for people.

It does seem to seek the will of God.

Pastor told of a woman he knew from a mainline church who was diagnosed with cancer. She went to her pastor and asked if he would pray for her. He scoffed and said that what she needed was chemo. She came to the pastor of the church I just attended and asked for prayer and he prayed for her. He said that, yes, she needed chemo, but her heart needed prayer. He also said that sometimes God (he is a pastor so after all he does believe in God) does cure someone, but he said that to be honest that is the exception. I don't think I have ever heard a pastor or minister admit to that before.

[Mariana]

25. I guess the biggest megachurches

run by the likes of Joel Osteen, are the most Godly of all.

Interesting.

[gkhouston]

28. No, it depends on the congregation and the minister(s). The tone of a church

can vary a lot over the years depending on who's there. Even different churches of a similar size within the same denomination can feel quite differently.

[NMMNG]

51. Easy

"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires."
— Susan B. Anthony

[elocs]

21. If you have seen the movie "Serenity" which is from the series "Firefly"

Ron Glass who plays the character Shepherd, as he is dying he exhorts Nathan Fillion to believe. He prefaced this by saying to him that why every time he said to believe that he thought Shepherd was talking about God. "I don't care what you believe in, just believe".

This church has grown enormously in the last 15 years and the pastor who came to it as a young man has moved on which had to be hard to do. I think it has grown so large because it is opening and accepting of all people.

[mr blur]

29. But WHY is belief good?

if what you believe in has no basis in reality or rational thought? People can (and do) believe anything. Are we to treat everyone's beliefs with respect? I think not.

[NMMNG]

48. Oh FFS

Belief is good. No matter what you may believe or not.

The belief that women should be subjugated to men is good? The belief that women must wear giant tents that cover 99% of their bodies or be "corrected" (beaten or even killed) is good? The belief that people who are gay should be afforded fewer rights than straights, discriminated against, persecuted, and even killed--is good? The belief that non-white people are lesser than white people is good? Are you really claiming that any and all beliefs are good?


If you are doing God's will, it can not be stopped.


Which god are you referring to? There are thousands of them you realize. How "god's will" determined and interpreted? What if your version of "god's will" is in direct opposition to someone else's version of "god's will"--and both of your versions are vastly different than the versions held by others? Whose "god's will" is imposed on everyone? And why do you think your "god's will" should be imposed on anybody but you? Would you like someone else to impose their "god's will" on you?



Being this church you attended has grown so large, and you had a meaningful experience. God's will must be flouris

Argumentum ad populum. Just because the church is large it doesn't mean what they're selling is true. Or, as your mom used to say, "If all of your friends jumped off a cliff would you do it too"?

Also, anecdotal evidence. So one person had a "meaningful experience" one day at church. That doesn't mean "god" was doing anything, or that any god even exists. Millions of people have "meaningful experiences" at raves, rock concerts and in beds across the nation every night. That's not evidence of god's handiwork.



Look at Terry Jones in Florida.... (50 members}
Man's will does not have a chance.


There's evidence right there for "man's will" and the harm it can sow--if you're talking about megalomaniacal men who think they speak for magical sky fairies.

[Sapphocrat]

50. "Oh, FFS" -- !!

:rofl:

My (mind-reading) wife -- I think I'll keep her.

[Sapphocrat]

54. P.S.

You forgot that godly bidniss about dashing infants against the rocks!!!

[Sapphocrat]

49. Oh, FFS.

"Belief is good ... No matter what you may believe or not."

If you don't believe, there is no belief. Ask any atheist. Hell, ask me -- I'm an agnostic who neither believes nor disbelieves anything.

"Morals of helping and treating other with love, respect is always a good thing."

And that comes from belief in a god? The -- not "some of the," but THE -- most moral people I have ever known are atheists; they don't do right because they are afraid of being sent to hell -- they do right because it is right, period.

"If you are doing God's will, it can not be stopped. Man's will on the other hand has little chance."

So, how about raging homophobic bigots who operate on nothing but their deeply held religious beliefs that they are "doing God's will"? Do you agree with them that gay people are immoral, or do you believe raging homophobic bigots are wrong? If so, how do you know they are wrong? What if they're right, and you're wrong? Did God give you a sign? What if the people you disagree with swear God gave them a sign? Do you believe them -- or do you believe them only if they believe the same things you do?

You want I should start naming people who have murdered gays, blacks, and Muslims because they really, really, really believed they were "doing God's will"?

Howzabout that Mohammed Atta and his pals? Hear tell they really believed they were "doing God's will," too.

"Look at Terry Jones in Florida.... (50 members}
"Man's will does not have a chance."

So, God likes big churches, and small churches don't mean jack shit?

And... what? Non-believers don't count at all? Or are we just going to hell anyway, so why should anybody listen to us...?

But never mind all that. Last I heard, Jesus' "congregation" numbered a whole helluva lot less than fifty -- and Fred Phelps's Westboro Baptist Church numbers around a steady 70. So, is "God's will... flourishing" in Freddie's Church of God Hates Fags more than it did among Jesus, his Apostles, and their occasional hangers-on?

BTW, these all questions are completely rhetorical -- I cannot debate a person whose ideas are half-baked at best. It is my strongly-held belief that if there is a god, you're not using the brain that god gave you to THINK through any of the things you're saying.

:banghead:

[wookie72]

3. Sounds like my experience

I got to a United Church of Canada church. Although I've taken the summer off, sigh.

[Wheezy]

4. Thanks for detailing your experience!

I belong to a church like this, and agree that there tends to be a sweeping generalization here on religion that really isn't accurate. That said, I'm not out to change anybody's mind. But I'm delighted you saw a different picture than what you expected. And it's really cool that you were willing to help your goddaughter out.

[elocs]

24. There is a sweeping generalization here at DU about religion and Christianity in particular

gets tarred with the same broad brush. Freepers do that to Democrats making us all "Liberals", all exactly the same.

I consider myself to be more of a deist than anything, but I am happy to take my goddaughter to that church if that is what she wants to do.

[immoderate]

5. The American way.

Minimal social services. Let the church pick up the slack. Churches survive because of the vacuum in our social systems. It's an assault on reason, subsidized by the government.

--imm

[Jim__]

6. Why did you take her there? Because she wanted to go?

I think it's great that you went and enjoyed - hopefully your goddaughter did too. But did you take her because she wanted to go? Or because you thought it might be a good experience for her? I'm curious, because church is probably the last place I would take someone unless they asked me to.

[elocs]

8. My goddaughter wanted to go because her mother (visiting from Chicago) took her last Sunday.

In fact, on the way back she even thanked me for taking her. I am the one here watching over her and I promised her mother that I would take her to church, and I did. I would not have gone on my own otherwise.

Given that church, this church in particular, is one where the young people are not going to be drinking or doing drug or otherwise getting into trouble it would be the first place I would think to take her compared to what else is available. She is a substance abuser and the last thing she needs at this point in her life is to be around those who are drinking or doing drugs or who would lead her down that path.

I found the pastor of this church to be interesting in spite of the fact that I went there with the DU anti-religious chip on my shoulder, prepared to be offended. It was not boring or condemning or freeper fundamentalist in any way and there was no political talk or arm twisting. I'll take my goddaughter back as often as she wants to go.

[Jim__]

16. Thanks. I was just curious.

It seemed like a strange place to take her; but not if it's her church. I'm glad that you enjoyed it.

[elocs]

18. The church can be as much of a social outlet for her as a religious one.

Her mother has accused me of indoctrinating my goddaughter with atheism although I never used that word, would not describe myself as such, and only told her what I believe at the time.

My answer to her mom was that if church and religion were so important, then why didn't she bother to take my goddaughter herself when the girl was a younger teen. That would have meant more than sending her with someone else.

In the end the girl is lonely and is desperate for some friends her own age as well as for an opportunity and a place to play her drums. This church does seem to be very welcoming to all kinds of people.

[cleanhippie]

12. agreed. At least until THEY ask to go....

[Mimosa]

14. It sounds like a great modern church

Wishing happiness, friends and blessings to you and your goddaughter. :D

[madrchsod]

17. agree....

[pgodbold]

20. I'm a Methodist and I am in Church every sunday. I was temped to leave over GWB library though.

[Festivito]

26. It is not a must that churches vote Republican. We can have those votes.

... and we should get those votes.

There are, however, a divisive, loud, obnoxious, and, I'd bet for some, a paid group on DU trying to keep us from gaining those votes.

[Ramulux]

27. Do you have something against your god-daughter?

Why would you do that to her? If she is having personal problems the last thing you want to do is take her to a meeting of cultists who are going to try to influence her way of thinking. Religious institutions exist to offer hope and structure to people who are too scared to ask and think about life's big questions.

Seriously, if you want your god-daughter to grow up into an intelligent reasonable human being, keep her as far away from any religious institution as possible. Religion is twisted.

[proteus_lives]

30. Wow. That brush is so big, I don't know how you even pick it up.

[howard112211]

32. Lol. For once I agree with you.

Must be full moon or something.

[Douglas Carpenter]

34. it freightens me when I am in 100% agreement with you

[Ramulux]

35. What do you mean?

[proteus_lives]

37. Come-on man, don't play coy.

It means you're making a stereotypical statement. Not backed by fact or logic.

[Ramulux]

39. Religious institutions are just glorified cults

Thats a fact. They trick people into believing in magic and supernatural crap that isn't real. Thats a fact. I dont see how anything I said isn't based on fact. Organized religion is a sham. Its not real. Tell me how I am wrong.

[proteus_lives]

43. Yeah, you're wrong.

I can assure you that organized religion exists. I've seen a church or two while walking down the street.

You can't see because you're blinded by hate.

[Ramulux]

45. I cant figure it out

Are you purposefully misunderstanding what I am saying because you think its cute or are you just not reading my post. Either way, explain why I am wrong or you can just stop.

[proteus_lives]

46. I'll say it again, you're blinded by your hate.

Do you really not see it, from your original comment down?

[Ramulux]

47. I never said anything about hate

Religious institutions lie to people. They preach a false interpretation of the world around them and embrace fiction as fact. Maybe I just have a problem with people being brainwashed, but I dont see why that makes me hateful.

[proteus_lives]

53. How do you know?

"They preach a false interpretation of the world around them and embrace fiction as fact."

No one knows if they do or not. It's an unknown.

"Maybe I just have a problem with people being brainwashed, but I dont see why that makes me hateful."

That's sad. I mean really sad. So you believe that religious faith or faith in general is automatically brainwashing. So, for example, MLK was a brainwashed victim who in turn brain-washed others?

[Ramulux]

55. Seriously?

"No one knows if they do or not. It's an unknown."

No its not. Just like the ancient Greek gods were made up and based off of astrological and environmental phenomena, all organized religion with a dogma were created by human beings. Thats a matter of historical record. Human beings created these religions and they wrote the holy books. Why should I believe a bunch of fictional stories written by humans? There is no evidence of any kind in the world to support the existence of some kind of supernatural being coming to earth, let alone communicating with one individual and telling him that he's special and needs to spread the word and convert people and write stories explaining how great the god is.

Anyone in the world can make shit up and say its true, and that's your right as a free person, but it doesn't make me a hateful person for pointing out the fact that its not true.

As for the MLK Jr. thing, you are purposefully misunderstanding what I am saying, I never said anything regarding whether or not religious people could be moral or do great things. My entire point has to with the version of reality presented by various organized religions.

Every religion claims to have the end-all be-all truth about the world. They claim that they're god made the world and that's the end of the story. No room for interpretation, no room for revision, if you follow a faith, you believe the god of that faith created the world. The problem is that that belief is based on nothing. There are a lot of insanely mysterious and complicated things in this world, things I dont have an answer for, but unlike organized religion I dont go around claiming to have the answer, I dont go around claiming that because some imaginary figure spoke to me in my dreams that I know better than everyone else, I dont go around basing my judgments about the world off of fictional stories. If any of these institutions could make a real case, if they could explain reasonably and logically why there is a god, I would become religious in an instant. But they cant, and they cant because it isn't based on anything real, its just stories.

[proteus_lives]

56. "No its not."

Yes, that's your belief.

"but it doesn't make me a hateful person for pointing out the fact that its not true."

If you say, "I disagree" or "I don't believe as you do." You're right. But you didn't say that. Your words were purposefully hateful of something you don't like.


"Every religion claims to have the end-all be-all truth about the world."

Not all of them.

" dont go around basing my judgments about the world off of fictional stories."

Stories you believe to be fictional.

"they cant because it isn't based on anything real, its just stories."

Once again, that's your belief system.

We wouldn't be having this conversation if you actually respected others beliefs without agreeing with them.

[comtec]

33. religion is also very comforting and social

living with cold facts and reality is hard, and uncomfortable.

The loneliness is enough to drive anyone insane, and the gal wanted to be social.

There's nothing wrong with that. Being a modern church it;s unlikely that she will pick up any of the bigotry that is common with more conservative denominations.

point being you're acting as small minded as you pro port all religions to be... sad and ironic, as you're horribly wrong.

I miss my time in church occasionally, because of the general sense of welcome.

I can put up with the bible quotes, as long as the message from the pulpit never becomes one of intolerance.

[Name removed]

36. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[comtec]

59. well... damn it looks like I missed a party while i was asleep n/t

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

61. "Keep her as far away from any religious institution as possible"

Yes, because for someone to become truly well-rounded and to experience life, we must keep intelligent, reasonable people ignorant of a large aspect of society and culture.

[howard112211]

31. I had a similar experience recently.

I was on a visit to my folks in the "deep south". And the only person who showed detailed interest in my scientific thesis paper and had an hour long discussion with me about it was a creationist Christian.

:hi:

[AsahinaKimi]

40. It is good that you had a nice experience

In my area there are quite a few Buddhist places to go, and I have never been an acting member of the Buddhist faith. I had considered the possibilities of going, but I could easily meditate in my own home. Both my mom and dad go often but since they are so far away, I don't go with them. I did once when I was younger, and at the time for me, as a child, just going out of the house and going some place new was exciting..

[krabigirl]

41. We go to a UU church, but just for the kids (I like it, but prefer no church as I like to sleep)

However, there are several Christians there who are very nice. I like it, but I like it even better that all belief systems (or non-beliefs) are included.

[Dappleganger]

42. We have a daughter around that age.

It's good that you're trying to help her find some friends, just realize that many kids in churches these days are seriously messed up. Also, I would not push my daughter to go to church as she is agnostic and adamant about not going unless it's a holiday with good music featured.

Faith is a journey and she's at that age where she should have the freedom to explore anything and everything which interests her. If it was me I'd be going to a bunch of churches and not just one place.

[Generic Brad]

44. Church and religion can be very positive forces

While it does not work for me, I recognize that many people find deep and profound meaning in it. Who am I to argue with that? I only get upset with those who condemn those of us who do not feel that way.

I'm glad it was a positive experience for you.

[Divine Discontent]

52. amen... thanks for your story... very important to see things like this for those of us who are

believers, but are disgusted with how many denominations are so ridiculous. I'm so happy for you that you had a great experience!

Praise God!

[TexasObserver]

58. I consistently find more of god in a drive to church than in being there.

I find churches consistently full of ritual designed to reassure people who need such weekly reminders of spiritual guideposts. Some people need groups to reaffirm what they do. Others do not. For those who require such structure, churches make some sense. The more desperately a person needs a sense that "it's going to be all right," the more overbearing their church is likely to be.

Religions are generally about regulation and reassurance. Ultimately, almost all of them are terribly egocentric.

[elocs]

63. Well, a thread that is positive about religion that has been relatively well received here at DU.

It is refreshing to see those here who are agnostic or atheist that are able to disagree with religious DUers without being disagreeable or feel the need to trash religion to support their point of view. Unfortunately there are still some who are vitriolic about religion, Christianity in particular, who use the broad brush to paint all believers as the same in order to mock and belittle their beliefs. All religions are not the same, all Christians and their churches are not the same.

My goddaughter is still exploring exactly what she believes. A great appeal of this church is the socialization and being able to make friends with people her own age as well as an opportunity to be musical and play her drums. I saw on her reading table that she not only has a copy of the Koran as well as a book which has the Bible laid out as a readable story with continuity, eliminating a lot of the begats. I am confident that her going to this church will be a good experience for her and that she will take from it what she needs and learn that people of diverse beliefs can be good people to know and to realize that you do not make your own beliefs more noble or true by putting down the beliefs of others.

[tabasco]

65. Sounds like the Walking Man Church. n/t