NICU baby circumcised against wishes of family.

[Crunchy Frog]

Baby Gets Circumcised Against Family's Wishes

SOUTH MIAMI (CBS4) ―
Mario Viera is held by his mother Vera Delgado. Mario Viera is just four weeks old. When he was born, his mom says she told doctors at South Miami Hospital several times that she did not want Mario circumcised.

"It's a big hospital," said Vera Delgado, Mario's mother. "It's a good hospital, and I thought he's safe, he's good there." But eight days after his birth, without his mother even present, doctors performed the surgery.
"I was crying. I spent that day and the next day crying," Delgado told CBS4's Gio Benitez exclusively.

The hospital released this statement: "The baby's circumcision was an unfortunate mistake caused by a misread consent form. As soon as the error was discovered, the doctor and nurses let the family know what had occurred. We also immediately implemented new processes to ensure this mistake will not occur again. The procedure itself was performed following appropriate surgical guidelines and the baby didn't have any complications. Nevertheless, we're all deeply sorry that this happened."

http://cbs4.com/local/South.Miami.Baby.2.1907271.html

It was done on the 8th day of a 10 day NICU stay, so apparently "appropriate surgical guidelines" include not obtaining consent, and doing it on babies that are too unstable to leave intensive care. The family's lawyer will be suing the hospital for battery.

This was one of the things I worried about when my twins were in the NICU. It looks like my fears were not entirely unfounded. If it had happened to one of my babies I would have done time in jail and the doctor would have been left with a permanent physical reminder of the importance of obtaining proper consent before cutting into someone.

Not trying to start another flame thread on the subject, but I thought it was an interesting story.

[Orrex]

1. .

:popcorn:

[Crunchy Frog]

3. Whatever your opinion of circumcision is, I hope you will agree

that it's wrong to do it when the parents have refused it and the baby is unstable and in intensive care. I hope they end up owning the hospital.

[Orrex]

5. People have had entire limbs amputated in error; the family will receive a minimal settlement

However, I obviously agree that it is wrong to perform a by-consent medical procedure without having obtained the consent of the responsible party, and it's even worse to do so in defiance of that party's explicit non-consent.

Additionally, if the hospital can credibly demonstrate that the circumcision was the result of a good-faith error rather than deliberate misdeed, then I wonder how readily an assault charge will stick.


Still...

:popcorn:

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Occulus]

48. .

[knowbody0]

2. your babies are beautiful

congrats

[Warpy]

4. Any surgery done against the wishes of the parents and

in the absence of a court order is assault.

The kid will likely get through college on the proceeds of the lawsuit.

[chatnoir]

6. Cannot even believe they did this on a baby in NICU

I would be beyond livid myself.

So sad for the mom and her son. :(

[lostnfound]

36. I can't believe they'd do it in NICU even WITH consent!!

Why in the world would they even allow it to be done when the poor little thing is still struggling for its life??? Unbelievable.

[chatnoir]

58. I know - unbelievable they would do this AT ALL in NICU

Even WITH parental consent.

Poor little fellow is struggling to live and they do THIS?

Totally screwed up. :(

[w8liftinglady]

8. it leads me to another question...one I encounter frequently

Did the patient's family need an interpreter?I have encountered this many times in my hospital.I was frequently the only bilingual nurse in the hospital.Many The consents are 'written" in English and Spanish,but anything you have to fill in are written in whatever language the physician/nurse are writing in.Even though I would do both,I would also read the consent to the family/patient since some are illiterate.I'd tell them to bear with me-I did it with all my patients-so they wouldn't be embarrassed.

[Hamlette]

9. really?

sorry to have run into your thread right after reading about the pizza delivery man murder but you have to admit, in the grander scheme of things, this just isn't even close to rage worthy. The hospital read the form wrong, it made a mistake. It is staffed by humans. It happens. It was not malicious or done to hurt anyone. The child will be fine (there are pros and cons to circumcision).

If this is the best you can do for things to be pissed about, IM me and I'll give you a better list. It will prolly start with kids who die in this country because they can't get medical care at all instead of kids who get too much medical care.

[Chan790]

10. I find your dismissiveness repulsive. n/m

[Hamlette]

14. you forgot the sarcasm symbol n/t

[Chan790]

16. No sarcasm. I think you're daft and insensitive. n/m

[Hamlette]

27. someone made a mistake, there was no intentional act here

I remember a case of a nurse who made a mistake causing blindness in an infant. I will never forget her sobs. She was to administer an eye drop kept in a certain drawer. A caustic substance had been put in the drawer by mistake (not by the nurse) and the bottles were identical. It was a horrible, gut wrenching error. The nurse who lost her job, did not get unemployment and probably will never work in her profession again cared less about that than what happened to the baby. She was devastated. If I live to be 100 I will never forget the sound of her remorseful sobbing during the hearing.

You might think me daft and insensitive and repulsive. It seems it might be more productive on a board like this, however, to discuss the issues instead of calling me names. Especially in light of the fact that you no knowing about me.

[Fumesucker]

11. Err.. Have you seen the thread about the NC restaurant that bans screaming kids?

That has by far the most replies of any thread on the first page of GD right now, not to mention nearly a hundred recs..

Clearly, screaming kids in restaurants is a far more pressing problem than kids dying for lack of medical care.

[Crunchy Frog]

13. If some doctor ever cuts off part of your pee pee while your in the hospital for something else

I will repeat your words to you.

[Hamlette]

15. won't happen

I don't have one

and maybe my attitude comes from 34 years as a lawyer watching people waste time, energy, money and their lives fighting over relatively minor things. Together with the fact that, as I mentioned earlier, there are pros and cons to the procedure and until very recently the vast majority of boys had the procedure without catastrophic consequences.

I'm just not that hung up over my son's "pee pee" as you so delicately put it.

[Crunchy Frog]

18. Wow, you don't have any external genitalia?

No wonder you can't identify with someone being upset about this. I do hope your condition hasn't caused you any undue medical consequences.

[Barack_America]

19. "pee pee"?

[Crunchy Frog]

22. I was being a little facetious.

I basically meant what if she went into the hospital for a gallbladder operation and woke to find she'd been given a labiaplasty by "accident". Or maybe had some other part of her anatomy removed that she liked having but didn't strictly NEED. She apparently would be just fine with it.

[cleanhippie]

17. Are you fucking SERIOUS? -- "this just isn't even close to rage worthy" -- WTF?!?!?

You feel that a permanent (and arguably unnecessary) surgical procedure that was performed on a newborn without the consent of the parents is

"just isn't even close to rage worthy" and

"the child will be fine" only to be followed up by

If this is the best you can do for things to be pissed about, IM me and I'll give you a better list".


I am speechless, I do not know how to respond that will not be considered a personal attack and get my post deleted.

It will be difficult for me to take seriously anything you post anymore.




What. the. fuck.

[Chan790]

24. That response is so spot-on it deserves a standing O.

[cleanhippie]

32. Grassy ass.

appreciated.

[lostnfound]

37. On a child IN NICU. In the NICU. Wow. nt

[cleanhippie]

38. I know! Amazing the response that was given to this.

Still shaking my head!

[unblock]

28. do you tell rape victims, "quit complaining, at least you're not dead"?

i'm a big fan of circumcision, it's a jewish tradition i'm proud of and i don't object to it in the slightest. but it's a highly emotional issue and i can only imagine what it must be like for a family that OPPOSES it and does NOT have it in their tradition and history to have it done on their newborn.

sure, from a completely dispationate, unemotional point of view, it's not permanent "damage" like they took out a kidney or amputated a leg or something. but why on earth discount emotions?

involuntary, irreversible surgery involving genitalia is most definitely rage-worthy.

sorry you're so jaded you not only can't muster any compassion for this but find it necessary to piss on those who can.

[Hamlette]

31. please

saying that my post might mean that I would tell a rape victim to quit complaining because at least they are not dead is the same kind of escalation as saying Obama is literally Hitler.

You can't see my point of view. Calling me names isn't likely to help me see yours.

[Crunchy Frog]

34. Frankly, I would rather be raped

than have one of my children's genitals cut without medical necessity.

[unblock]

35. are -- are you asking ME to be sensitive?

:rofl:

actually, i think i understand your point of view pretty clearly. you've been a lawyer for a long time and you're looking at this from a civil action standpoint. the hospital has already taken corrective action to reduce the likelihood of a repeat so there's not much further to be done there. there's no reason to believe there was any malice, gross negligence, or willful incompetence, so there's no real chance at a punitive award or giant settlement. you're left with just the actual damage, which is not something that can be objectively quantified in dollar terms the way loss of a limb or organ or functionality can be.

but that ignores the intense emotions involved, and this really is something horrific, and even granting that it may have been an innocent accident, it doesn't change the real, life-long emotional consequences for the parents and eventually for the baby.

there are nearly ALWAYS worse fates one can point to, no matter what the tragedy, and it does VERY little good to point this out.

[Hamlette]

40. actually, I wasn't thinking about the settlement at all

My view is colored more by Mark Twain than the law. He said: "I am an old man and have known a great many troubles but most of them never happened."

For me, having my child circumcised would not cause real, life-long emotional consequences. Maybe its because my dad and husband were as were most men in their generations and I don't know any who had real, life-long emotional consequences as a result of having the procedure. You call it insensitive. I call it perspective.

And I frankly don't care whether you are sensitive or not. I was suggesting it might be easier to see your point of view if you didn't call me names.

[unblock]

42. circumcision WITH parental consent and circumcision WITHOUT parental consent are vastly different

i'm guessing that your dad and husband's circumcisions were WITH parental consent. so they probably grew up with parents who were cool with the idea of circumcision and it didn't lead to any problems. similarly, my family has never had any problems with it.

but it's very, VERY different if the parents are opposed to it, and perhaps are grossed out by it or horrified by it or offended by it. some even think of it as a barbaric human rights violation. i think that's going overboard, but just imagine if that's your view as a parent and then you find out that they did it to your newborn.

sorry you don't care for the rape topic, but we are talking here about things happening to genitia without consent, so i don't think it's off-topic or extreme.

by the way, what "name" did i call you?

[cleanhippie]

46. I will say it again...ARE YOU FUCKING SERIOUS???????

You are having a complete FAILURE to see the actual point or ANYTHING from any perspective but your own.

[Hamlette]

52. could the same perhaps be said of you?

I think so.

It was a horrible thing. I have said that.

And yes, I am fucking serious. You are right about one thing, I just can't see the life-long emotional problems caused to parents and child by this. If it happened to me? I'd be pissed. But if I had emotional problems with it as a parent the rest of my life? I'd consider myself to be nuts. And the child? Really?

The person who might have true life time trauma is the person responsible. S/he will likely lose their job, their health insurance and based on many factors, they might not work in their profession again. No sympathy for that person or his or her kids? Seriously? Maybe if you reviewed the documents. Maybe if you knew the facts. You might understand (none of us know) how this could have happened.

How about I tell you about the 38 cases we are reviewing this week. People who have lost their jobs, their access to health care and insurance, their homes. People who are literally without food.

Again, I guess my problem here is that I spend my days hearing the saddest damned stories you can imagine. Any one of the dozens of people I come in contact with through my work on a weekly basis would GLADLY trade places with the family in question.

[Dappleganger]

50. Disgusting...

I cannot believe you think that any unauthorized procedure against a child is "ok"!!

[Hamlette]

53. I didn't ever say that.

what I said is, in the grander scheme of things, it is not rage worthy.

[Dappleganger]

56. It most certainly is!

As a mother to four and having two sons, I would have gone ape-shit if that had happened.

[shaayecanaan]

57. Would it be rage-worthy if your kid came out of hospital with a tattoo?

A belly ring, perhaps? Or maybe a Prince Albert piercing and nipple clamps? After all, they're only minor bodily modifications, hardly anything to get upset about.

You're a big fan of cutting off the tips of little kiddies' bitty bits. Congratulations to you and I hope that all of your children are genitally modified to your God's and your heart's content. However, please be mindful that not all of us are so minded. And any doctor that comes near my kid with a scalpel had better have a bloody fast chartered plane handy.

[Hamlette]

59. I don't believe in it

I didn't have my son circumcised.

What I don't understand about this discussion is why a few of you have made such nasty comments about me?

I'm not a fan of cutting off the tips of little kiddies' bitty bits or pee pees nor am I disgusting or any of the other things I've been accused of.

Is this such an emotional issue you have lost the ability to be civil when discussing it?

I'm honestly asking.

On edit, in answer to your question, if a child of mine came out of the hospital with a tattoo or piercing I'd be very concerned about hospital security as those are not procedures done in hospitals. And because of that, I'd be concerned. Would it cause me or my child life-long emotional distress? No. I hope not. And if it did, I would hope someone would get me some help as I don't think that is a healthy reaction.

I wouldn't call it rage worthy. But like hate, I try to keep my rage to a minimum.

[dkf]

12. Doctor error...

I'm sure it wasn't done as a political stand of some sort.

[Barack_America]

21. Consent forms can be confusing.

Sign on one line and you're agreeing to the procedure, sign on another line and you're refusing it.

They're also not standardized between hospitals, so the "assent" part of one hospital's form can line up with the "refuse" portion of another. Combine that with medical residents who rotate between different hospitals often every month and I'm actually surprised that we don't hear more of these errors.

[Crunchy Frog]

25. On the consent forms we were presented with

we just wrote "NO" in big letters, no signature.

They really should move this surgery out of newborn nurseries and into doctors offices. No chance for a mixup that way.

One of these days an irate parent is going to go postal on one of these confused doctors.

[ZombieHorde]

20. Sad. I followed my son around day and night until we left the hospital to prevent this.

Don't cut my son's dick!

[The Backlash Cometh]

23. Okay, I've got a stupid question to ask.

Does circumcision in any way reduce the largess of the inflatable member?

[Chan790]

26. Suspected, but not proven.

It is known to decrease sensitivity and sexual enjoyment for the male.

The argument for it basically comes down to a 1% reduction in risk for certain cancers over a lifetime, cleanliness and a since-debunked report from the WHO on HIV transmission rates in Africa.

[BreweryYardRat]

49. Probably.

Can't swear to it, because I'm not circumcised, but when a man is completely hard, the foreskin is only distinguishable as a slight line below the head of the penis.

[Iggo]

29. Aw. Poor kid.

Now he'll never live a normal life.

[donco]

30. Is that the same

Miami hospital, where a doctor cut the wrong leg off in the past?

[undergroundpanther]

33. Why is genital

mutilation still "standard practice" in this country? If you are born inter-sexed they attempt to remove bits in the name of forcing the child into binary gender norm. If it isn't done for a serious issue like a functionally incapacitating birth defect,to correct elimination problems or cancer,why do they STILL do that superstitious ritual cutting of the foreskin for?


A submission to the Australian Human Rights Consultation argues that bodily integrity is a human right and that, since boys are human, they deserve as much protection against genital surgeries as girls.
http://www.historyofcircumcision.net/

[proteus_lives]

45. Because people don't consider it mutilation.

I don't.

The family should sue and win over the error but mutilation? No, it's not that.

[Maru Kitteh]

55. People do consider it mutilation. Obviously this parent does.

You do not consider it a mutilation. This is your view. Others are no more and absolutely no less entitled to their view that it is, in fact, a mutilation.

[proteus_lives]

61. Some people do. I disagree with that view.

I think it's insulting to real victims.

No is saying you're not entitled to your own opinion.

[revolution breeze]

39. When my nephew was in NICU

They refused to perform a circumcision. The doctor said his condition was unstable, which why he was in the NICU in the first place, and there was no room for an ELECTIVE surgery to be performed (he was born with a malformed aorta, so the shock of having the circumcision would have been a shock on his already stressed heart). There was a Jewish family with a son also in NICU at the time, the doctor knew chances of him leaving NICU (he did not) were very slim. He allowed the Brit Milah to be performed in a small room adjacent because he knew it was important to the parents and would do no further harm.

[demmiblue]

41. Absolutely sickening. n/t

[slampoet]

43. Then let the parents cut an equal amount off the Doctor's genitals.

Let's have the Doctor put some skin in the game.

[proteus_lives]

44. Air-tight lawsuit.

[revolution breeze]

47. Perhaps

But I don't see any multi million dollar settlement coming out of this. The hospital will use the "it has been a cultural practice for generations so of course there are going to be screw ups" argument, if it goes to a jury, the majority of the males will probably be circumcised and will say "look at me, I had it done and nothing bad happened". Thankfully this little boy has kind, compassionate parents who will look out for this best interest.

[depakid]

51. Americans are as nutty obsessed with their penis' as they are with womens' breats

:eyes:

[Hamlette]

54. amen

and are nutty obsessed with lawsuits.
Say it.

[Crunchy Frog]

60. Yeah, women get upset about having mastectomies too.

I bet most women would be livid if they went in for a gallbladder removal and woke up with a mastectomy. Silly women. :eyes:

[revolution breeze]

62. I totally agree with you on this one.

I am just explaining why I do not think these people will win a multi-million dollard lawsuit against the hospital, especially if they choose to take it before a jury. Their best bet is to settle this out of court with the hospital AND force the hospital to make changes in their policy to make sure this never happens again.

[Dorian Gray]

63. Obviously

that should never have happened without parental consent and that it did is disturbing.