Crazy idea

[austin78704]

So there's a split around here between party loyalists and people frustrated with the incumbents.

I'm in the second group. And when I get to talking about it, I usually get the whole, "Well, you might as well vote for a goddamned republican if you don't vote for a democrat!" thing. That shit's getting old, and really not winning me over. You see, what I've been pissed about pretty much boils down to the D's have been doing lots of R-type shit. From extraordinary rendition to paying off banks to letting ACORN get steamrolled (and helping) to mandatory health insurance to bla bla bla to boogy-man campaigning. Boogey-man campaigning is where you try to scare voters into voting for you. ie, "Don't let the guys who ruined the economy run the show again!" That's all the non-visionary, weak-willed, capitulating type of shit the elephants honed into a skill. And that's a pretty short recap of why I hate those guys.

Those guys are not good role models.

Here's the crazy idea: how about the democrats earn my vote? And you guys can help! You let me know what I'd be voting for instead of beating me over the head with what you're praying I want to vote against.

[liberal N proud]

1. Split fueled by trolls

[shraby]

2. Need some more butter and a little salt.

:popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

[gateley]

3. I have to disagree with your assessment that the D's are engaging in Boogey-man

campaigning. They, unlike the R's, are telling the truth -- and that reality IS scary.

I'm sincerely appreciative for what they have accomplished, and get pissed and frustrated when they do something "wrong".

I'm voting for the Dems because I feel as though I'm in better hands with them at the helm. They may have engaged in some R-type shit, but on the whole, we share the same ideals, and I want like-thinkers in office representing me. If one or a few or the President lets me down once in a while, I can live with that and I do have hope that in the future it will be rectified.

We ARE heading in the right direction. And I want to keep going that way.

[TheMadMonk]

37. Sorry, but I must call 'bullshit!'. The only difference since Kenedy' death...

...(at the latest) is the speed at which the nation has moved in the WRONG direction.

Your civil rights are a mockery. Busses, water fountains and lunch counters are approximately the sum total of benefits to poor African Americans.

On virtually any list of world statistics one cares to examine, the US ranks very badly and is generally getting worse with time.

It is all well and good, to vote against the greater evil, but the truth is, it has been a choice between slow cooking and deep frying for a damned long time now.

Absent some truly radical change, the only real question is: How long until the inevitable collapse?

And I think the truth is we'd possibly be better off lettting the Republicans completely break the system sooner, rather than dragging things out with half measure patches that ultimately only give the greedier bastards time to gobble up the last scraps, if not just hand them over without a fight at all.

Wall Street made the housing bubble POSSIBLE. But it was greedy individuals (D, R, I and who the fuck cares) who MADE IT HAPPEN. It was greedy little people who refused to listen to those who pointed out that "this, this and this" are why it is yet another Pyramid/Ponzi scheme but were damned eager to be told all the reasons it wasn't. Same with Dot Com, S&L and Dutch bloody tulips.

It has been explained time and time again in words of one sylable exactly how in the long run these "investment oportunities" will ultimately result in a lot of not particularly wealthy people becoming even less wealthy and a handfull of very wealthy people showing a paper loss, but in possession of everything and anything of value and getting a tax refund into the bargain.

However, greed conquers all. And unfortunately in America greed is a virtue. It's been bred into the culture since the pioneering days. Take it and hold it. A man is what a man makes of himself. A man has to watch out for himself. All those memes that elevate the individual and a lot more that denigrate community effort on anything except the most local level and insular.

The only true communities left in the USA today are the churches. And as like gravitates to like, they are becoming increasingly polarised to the point where we are begining to see open conflict on ever less inflamatory issues as well as incidents of direct provocation

[bvar22]

47. Well Said. +1

You must have taken the Red Pill.

"You have to understand, most of these people are not ready to be unplugged. And many of them are so inured, so hopelessly dependent on the system, that they will fight to protect it."

[sandnsea]

4. This is Big D Democratic Underground

If you don't want to support Democrats, this is not the board for you. The rules specifically state you cannot campaign against Democrats or Democratic candidates.

If you don't know who to vote for, it is your responsibility to do the research, way the policy proposals, and make your decision.

No Democrat at Democratic Underground owes you a second of time to do for you what you won't do for yourself.

[Skittles]

6. you are completely missing the point

[gateley]

8. Be fair, Skittles. If you're going to tell her she's missing the point, you should

explain why you feel that way. How could she possibly respond to that if she doesn't know why you're making that judgment?

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[KILL THE WISE ONE]

18. was that not sandnsea's point

[sandnsea]

19. table leg, colorful candy, same thing n/t

[gateley]

20. Okay. I was going to say "But why do you have to argue??? Can't you just

discuss???" But I thought I'd sound too sweet (and I'm not) and I do understand where you're coming from. :)

[gateley]

17. Delete - Dupe.

[KILL THE WISE ONE]

12. i agree with you ... if someone can't remember 24 months ago and how bad it was

then trying to convince them is a wast of time and energy. IT TAKES MORE TIME TO CLEAN UP A MESS THEN TO MAKE IT. if you don't belive me aske your mother who cleans your room. Liberals did not get everything we wanted the senate and the filibuter stood in the way of most of it.

[austin78704]

16. I did research.

I'm not allowed to post what conclusions I came to on DU--it would clearly be in violation of the forum rules.

But that's no big deal, this isn't a conversation just between you and me--there are lots of others who get to read and join in. And you just might win some over.

What I did was provide to you and others here is a specific spot where you can make your argument against my position.

So far , looking at replies in this thread, I see:
"You're lazy."
"You're stupid."
"You're the enemy."

That's an interesting way to go about earning my vote.

Care to try harder?

[sandnsea]

21. So then stop disrupting the board

Go work with your local political party and get someone in office who "earns" your vote.

Is it really that complicated?

[austin78704]

23. Not complicated at all

But I'm not disrupting the board.

You know, you're putting a whole lot of effort into making me shut up, but zero effort into explaining why I ought to vote for Democrats. Why is that?

Remember, I'm not the only one reading. Even if I'm totally hopeless* you could still win over others.

(*) One of my favorite congressmen is Kucinich. And one of my favorite things about him is his willingness to fess up to being wrong and change his mind, even in the face of all kinds of pressure. I aspire to be as good.

[Techn0Girl]

43. No one's disrupting this board except you....

The man stated an opinion YOU didn't agree with.

DEAL with it.

[gateley]

22. Did you read my response? Thanks for telling me I indicated you're lazy,

stupid, or the enemy -- I didn't. I tried to give you a sincere answer as to why I was going to vote Dem. I didn't try to change your mind, to make you see the light, just responded to your request to "tell me why YOU'RE voting Dem". But apparently that's not what you really wanted. :shrug:

It appears you just want to keep the pot stirred.

When I take the time to give a heartfelt answer to what I thought was a heartfelt question and get dissed, I don't need to see any more of your posts. So I know you don't give a shit, but I'm putting you on ignore. You're adding to the problem.

[austin78704]

33. I just hadn't gotten to your message yet.

Yours took more thought to reply to. Sorry about that. I'll reply here

"I have to disagree with your assessment that the D's are engaging in Boogey-man

campaigning. They, unlike the R's, are telling the truth -- and that reality IS scary.

I'm sincerely appreciative for what they have accomplished, and get pissed and frustrated when they do something "wrong".

I'm voting for the Dems because I feel as though I'm in better hands with them at the helm. They may have engaged in some R-type shit, but on the whole, we share the same ideals, and I want like-thinkers in office representing me. If one or a few or the President lets me down once in a while, I can live with that and I do have hope that in the future it will be rectified.

We ARE heading in the right direction. And I want to keep going that way."

I just can't agree with the statement that they are not boogey-manning their campaigns. Maybe they haven't gone completely negative, but all over the place now the arguments keep coming down to telling voters how bad the republicans are going to be instead of how good the democrats have been and will continue to be.

The biggest hole they shot in their foot was throwing away their powerbase as soon as election day was over. Instead of having fights about legislation out in the open, where we'd be able to see it and join in, they tried to do everything behind closed doors and floor votes were reduced to formalities after all of the deals had been cut. The wave of support and excitement that was around on election day just dried up.

And the deals they cut were so awful. I'm still amazed at how bad the health care (insurance) bill got.

But I really can't get over extraordinary rendition. Obama has the power to unilaterally stop that--he just hasn't been willing to take the political hit or even engage in the fight. That isn't the right direction.

Back before Obama was in office, impeachment was off the table. Not even a debate. That isn't the right direction.

So, I don't trust their thinking. There are certainly individuals I trust, and I'm willing to vote for them, but I do not support the line of reasoning that a political party will always be inherently better than another no matter what and therefore I just need to stop whining and support it.

The design is simple: politicians get elected, and if they do a good job, they get reelected. If they do a poor job they do not. There is wisdom in that design, and if I have to choose a thing to just trust to be better in the long-run, I'll choose that.

[KILL THE WISE ONE]

25. well since you have done the reasearch then

Eddie Bernice Johnson, Stephen Edward Broden are your choices

since BRODEN's web site has crap like this on it ...... and you are still undecided then you mostlikly are just trollnig......

NO-BID LOVE FIELD CONTRACTS
It is in the best interest of the city and all parties involved to avoid all appearances of impropriety. A competitive and open bidding process is essential in order to engender a sense of confidence among the citizens of Dallas that their city leaders take serious their stewardship responsibilities to serve their best interest.

NO MORE PLANTATION POLITICS!
...Plantation Politics—the belief by Washington politicians that they can control our lives, and that there is nothing we can do about it. They have proven their arrogance by passing laws that reach into every nook and cranny of America life.

SOLVE THE DEBT CRISIS--FOLLOW THE CONSTITUTION!
Irresponsible federal spending is only the symptom of an underlying problem. The real problem is the refusal of the federal government to operate within the bounds of the Constitution, and to limit its laws, regulations, spending and reach, to areas of American life where it is supposed to operate.

THE NAACP IS WRONG!
The NAACP’s July 13th resolution denouncing the Tea Party movement as “racist” raises more doubts about the discernment and judgment of those who voted at the NAACP convention, than about the Tea Party itself.

THE TEA PARTY VISION FOR GOVERNING
The Tea Partiers ... seek a government that will honor the Constitution, restore fiscal discipline and repeal overreaching legislation like the so-called "health care" bill.

WAKE UP, AMERICA...WHILE WE SLEPT, FREEDOM WAS ATTACKED
They call it “reform” but it’s another 2000 plus page power-grab that will constrict the private sector, empower Washington bureaucrats, and impose massive taxes and regulatory costs on businesses - costs that will ultimately be borne by all consumers.

[Odin2005]

24. What if those "Democrats" don't ACT like Democrats?

I am the enemy of 5th column corporatist fake "Democrats" that want us to be kinder, gentler Republicans.

[KILL THE WISE ONE]

27. still better then real R's and the primary is over

[Odin2005]

29. The Corporate Dems and the Pukes are ON THE SAME TEAM.

We have to get a majority of PROGRESSIVE DEMOCRATS in Congress, the Blue Dogs and DLCers are not on our side, they are on the other side with the GOP.

[KILL THE WISE ONE]

32. well then i guess you will have to work harder to get a perfect candidate in the next primary

I the mean time hold your nose and vote for the one you got....or spend the next two years whinning about what the "real R's" are doing

[sandnsea]

30. Go To Your Local Political Party

and work to elect people who "earn" your vote.

Note I didn't say Democratic Party.

If you don't like your local Democrat, then work to get one you do like.

Not one DUer can do that for you.

[Odin2005]

36. Of course, that is what we did here in Minnesota.

the Party Apparatchiks tried to give us a Centrist as nominee for governor and we gave them a slap in the face in the primary and chose Mark Dayton.

[sandnsea]

38. So what are you bitching about?

That's democracy.

And if he's elected, do you seriously believe you will agree with Mark Dayton over 70% of the time?

[bvar22]

48. You did good in Minnesota.

We tried in Arkansas, but the White House and Democratic Party Apparatus forced Blue Dog/Anti-LABOR/Anti-Public Option Blanche Lincoln on us.



My old Mama always told me, "Never laugh at anybody!
Laughing at somebody is asking God to put you in their shoes."
How right she was!

I used to ridicule without mercy Middle Class Republicans for voting against their own Economic Interests,
and NOW the Democratic Party is demanding I do the same.

[sandnsea]

49. Uh no, voters voted

And whether you will admit it or not, lots of Democrats in your state vote against unions and against what they consider government run health care. You didn't make the sale. It wasn't made in Colorado either.

If Obama is so horrible and everybody hates him so much, why is he so powerful in winning these local elections?

[bvar22]

50. I guess active campaign help from

the sitting president,
a former President from Arkansas,
and funding from the DSCC
doesn't count for anything.
.
.
.
Got it.
:eyes:

[Tunkamerica]

5. Yeah! Right on! Palin/McCain would be much better! or at least the same.

That's what you're saying right? A Republican controlled Congress or White House would have done all the same things or better?

[Skittles]

7. LOL

you are proving the OP's point

[austin78704]

15. "That's what you're saying right?"

No.

[rucky]

9. It wasn't just the principal of the ACORN steamroll...

It was the loss of our biggest force for voter registration and physically getting voters to the polls. If there's a low Dem turnout this midterm, you can attribute a good chunk of it to ACORN not being there to help. Did congress really not know where their votes were coming from when they decided to kill ACORN without a hearing?

[proud2BlibKansan]

11. Couldn't agree more

Great OP!

[Nite Owl]

13. I'm in the 'frustrated' wing

of the Democratic Party also. I don't understand why it is we cannot engage in actual discussion anymore without the same lame answers. If we cannot discuss things there is no way to make the party better and more effective to progressive goals. Being satisfied with the status quo, with the half a loaf theory, does not in the end move us forward.

Personally I'm voting for the dems that I have a choice of voting for if they vote like actual Democrats. If they choose to vote R then having the D after their names is meaningless. If the Republican wins it isn't because I didn't vote for them it's because they wouldn't vote with the party.

[unkachuck]

14. "...how about the democrats earn my vote?"

....interesting concept, I like it!

....the Dems could start by telling us specifically what they're going to do for us, our families and our communities if elected/re-elected, and then deliver more than expected!

....I sure don't want to go back to meltdowns, and we are moving forward, yet, the status quo is unacceptable....what's a voter to do?

[Odin2005]

26. Politicians have to EARN my vote.

I will not vote for the "Lesser of the two Evils", doing that allows both sides to become more and more evil. I will no longer compromise with evil.

[KILL THE WISE ONE]

40. then be prepared to see the greater of two evils elected

[Speck Tater]

28. austin: Don't be shocked if you are flamed for pointing out an unpopular truth.

There are many people here who don't want to hear anything bad about any Democrat for any reason. It's a shame, really, that some people are more into denial than into honestly facing the very real problems the Dems in power are refusing to face themselves.

[Techn0Girl]

42. I agree ... There is a contingent on this board ....

the save couple dozen every time who look for contrary opinions like yours and try to ridicule you for them in an effort to drive you out of here.

Austin - you're not alone. If anything, November will prove you to be in a majority.

[Lyric]

31. All I can say is that you're unlikely to sway anyone here

even though I agree with you.

I sincerely believe that 100 years from now, the liberals of that era will look back on us with nothing but shame. History is not going to be kind to the fearful and the complacent.

[Name removed]

34. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[austin78704]

35. That's cute.

And unconvincing.

Edit: P.S. That's not even my district.

[KILL THE WISE ONE]

39. it's your district race convice yourself.

Eddie Bernice Johnson Democrat, Stephen Edward Broden Tea Party, that is your choices.
if their websites alone do not convince you then .......I no longer have time to "convince" a table leg.

[austin78704]

41. But it isn't my district

I even went back and checked just to make sure. Eddie Bernice Johnson and Stephen Edward Broden are both running in the 30 district, which is in Dallas. I'm in district 25, down here in Austin. Zip code 78704.

I can't choose between them.

Are you high?

[Name removed]

45. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TexasObserver]

44. I've noticed Democrats are always your boogey man.

You have one of the best congressmen in the country in Lloyd Doggett.

You will have two votes for congress - one for the House and one for the Senate. The Democrat for the House is Doggett. The Democrat for the Senate is Bill White. They're both good people and good Democrats, so who are these imaginary Democrats that you can't get behind?

We're under two months until the election, and all you can talk about is how unhappy you are with the only party you can vote for without helping the GOP. Politics is always the business of picking the choice that least offends. Now would be a good time to understand that.

[austin78704]

46. Quit making it personal

1) I'm arguing principal. So whoever's actually on my personal ballot is irrelevant. And as I have pointed out, I'm not the only one unhappy with congress's performance, and the rest don't necessarily live in my district with me. They get to have this conversation as well.

2) I discuss democrats here because that's the subject at hand.

3) We're having more than just that one congressional race.

[TexasObserver]

51. I pointed out YOUR congressman is Democrat Lloyd Doggett, one of the best.

I pointed out the Democrat you will vote for in November for US Senate is Bill White, former Houston mayor, former Clinton administration official, and current candidate for the Democratic party.

I pointed out that your comments maligning Democrats have no applicability to the only two Democrats YOU can vote for or against this election. I pointed out that your complaints may be with other Democrats, but not them.

I'll repeat my comment. You seem to focus on Democrats with your criticism, not Republicans.

If you're really a Democrat and really care about the House and the Senate, why aren't you out working for Lloyd Doggett and Bill White? If you're not a Democrat, just say so. You seem to want to replace Democrats with someone other than Democrats.

I intend to vote Democratic in November, but then, I'm a Democrat. I've made the decision based upon years of observing the body politic and upon learning that voting Democratic is better than not voting or voting for some schmuck from some other party.

[austin78704]

54. Since you're repeating, I'll repeat, too.

I didn't put this tread together just for little old me. Stop trying to make it personal. Had I not provided you with the info needed to figure out my district and my candidates and bla bla bla, how would you have approached this quandary? Now apply that plan to others who might be reading since you don't know who their choices are.

Once again, I'm talking about democrats on DU because that's kind of one of the things that happens around here. I hang around an astronomy chat board too. Can you guess just what in the fuck we talk about over there?

That said, you seem to focus your criticisms on left-wingers and non-moderates, not Republicans. Care to explain?

I was raised a democrat, but I consider myself independent. My views are strongly aligned with the democrats' published platform. Not as strongly aligned with what's going on in DC now.

Bill White's running for Governor. No federal Senate race this year.

You're framing my vote as a planned protest, as if I'd be stupid enough to for FOR a teaparty idiot that I despise just because I'm mad that the democrats didn't hand me everything I wanted. That's absolute bullshit. I'm specifically interested in the situation where I have a democrat on the ballot, and a non-democrat that I feel more aligned with. Should I vote for the candidate I truly prefer, or should I vote for the democrat in the hopes of thwarting the republicans' evil plans?

Not much thwarting to speak of in the last two years. Yes, there's some. But not much.

"How many golden opportunities do you need -- ---------- ---- ------ --- ---- ---- ------- ------ --- ------ --- ---- -- ---- -------?"

[Atticus]

52. I wonder if anything could be said that might persuade you that most Democrats are more deserving

of our support than their Republican (or Tea Party) opponents.

This is another example of a thread which was apparently started in order to encouage DU posters to line up on one side or the other of a schism that the post clearly encourages. And, as too frequently is the case, some quickly rise to the bait and repeat their totally predictable lines to the effect that "you (whoever) are either for us or against us.

I encourage everyone here to support every Democrat running unless they can sincerely conclude that their Republican or Tea Party opponent would better serve the nation. That does not mean that I am happy with every Democrat running or even that I would not agree with your criticisms of some of them. But, this kind of political masturbation does nothing to further your avowed purpose of a more liberal Democratic Party---which I would welcome, by the way. It can only encourage further division and doubt and erosion of enthusiasm during the countdown to a critical mid-term election.

We are seldom given the choice of voting for either the totally good or the totally bad candidate. Most of us---most of the time---must choose between gradations between the extremes. Mature people take the time to think about all the factors in play before they mark their ballot. When I do that, I vote Democrat 99% of the time.

[TexasObserver]

55. Well said. The election is between Democrats and Republicans.

With few exceptions, the Democrat is going to be the better candidate.

[austin78704]

56. I call B.S.

First, I do like what you stated in the last two paragraphs. It's the first two that stink.

"This is another example of a thread which was apparently started in order to encouage DU posters to line up on one side or the other of a schism that the post clearly encourages. And, as too frequently is the case, some quickly rise to the bait and repeat their totally predictable lines to the effect that "you (whoever) are either for us or against us."

The people pushing the "with us or against us" crap will always show up--stating that they do is not a valid reason to avoid the subject. Which is odd, you start off your post making a plea that we don't have this conversation, but then you join in. What are you trying to accomplish there?

I know what I brought up here is a sore subject--that's why I brought it up. If we don't bring up the sore subjects and address them, when will they stop being sore?

Also, you and others keep framing this in terms of only three options: democrats, republicans, and teabaggers. Those are not necessarily the only options in all races.

[Orsino]

53. Well, we can sit back and wait for Dems to "earn" our vote...

...or we can get serious and exercise it anyway, to filter out the worst of the worst.

I will not say that no one should protest by not voting, but I hope that every voter will first weigh the consequences of action and inaction.

[TexasObserver]

57. Any time someone tells me "make Democrats earn your vote," I'm dubious.

I vote for the candidate I think is better for me and the country. BETTER is the key word. Usually, that means "better than the Republican who will otherwise win the race."

That's a standard most Democrats easily exceed.

I vote for Democrats not because they earn it, but because all things GOP are worse.

The question is not "do they meet my personal expectations?" The question is "are they better than the Republican they're running against?"

[Orsino]

59. That is an awfully low bar to set.

And if the Republicans are always worse, then the Dems will never have to get any better.

It's a lousy state of affairs. I'm too chicken not to vote, but eventually Democrats are going to have to be made to work for more votes...unless they are content simply to buy them as the GOP does.

[ZombieHorde]

58. Reason #1, Dems support stem cell research. Reason #2, Dems choose the best Supreme Court judges.

Reason #3, Dems' record on women's rights have been pretty good lately. Abortion advancements have been slow, but workplace equality has been slowly improving because of Dems.

Reason #4, Dem victories piss off Repubs.

Reason #5, Kucinich endorses the Dems and he is a pretty cool politician.

Reason #6, The current Dem administration has been very good to college students.

Reason #7, Palin!!!!111111!!!!! Oops, I will try #7 again...

Reason #7, Foundations are being put into place for future awesomeness. For example, HCR. HCR was/is weak, but the Repubs and insurance companies have been fighting it because they know what HCR will become. Future generations will benefit from today's HCR.

Reason #8, Dems are allowing the Bush tax breaks for the extremely rich to expire.

Reason #9, Dems try to reach out to our foreign allies, instead of trying to alienate them.

If you don't like one or three of those answers, try to focus on the others.

[surrealAmerican]

60. There are good incumbents and there are bad incumbents.

The time to challenge those democrats you don't like is in the primaries. If that failed for you, you may well need to vote for the lesser of two evils.

You probably have a pretty clear idea of what will happen should the republicans regain control of the the house or the senate. Do you think that prospect is not worth considering?