Are You Against Health Care Reform?

[BeFree]

You politicians campaigning against 'Obama Care' need to explain yourselves.

Explain what you have done to reform the bleeding system most of the people endure.

Explain what you might do to make health care a right for all and not a privilege for the few.

To us it looks like a broken system and you are telling us 'Too bad'.

You cons are out of touch with the people. You and your con friends did everything you could to stop any reform.

Why do you hate health care reform?

[derby378]

1. Hey, they succeeded in keeping health care from becoing a right

Wasn't that their plan all along?

[BeFree]

2. Yes. For now.

We are making progress toward that goal. NGU. We will beat them.

This election will dictate the amount of progress we can make for the next two years.

[zipplewrath]

5. What progress?

We passed a HCR bill modeled on the GOP's proposals from th emid 90's that was specifically designed to interfere with nationalize health care. It instituted mandates, which places the insurance companies as THE condiuits between individuals and health care. It passed no public option, to put the government in the position of delivering health insurance TO individuals. And it dictated that there would be roughly 25 million people who would have not health insurance at all.

There is now an effort afoot to increase the retirement age, which could include increasing the eligibility age for Medicare, thereby delaying even further the entry of the government into the business of delivering health insurance, much less care. They installed a mechanism of "exchanges" which will provide them with the opportunity to push even "high risk" individuals into the private health insurance business, including those traditionally convered by medicaid, and giving them a place to delay those formerly eligible for medicare until a later age.

There is nothing in here which advances us towards a single payer system, much less universal health CARE. All it did was to establish health insurance as an obligation for individuals, and health care as an option of the free markets.

[Fumesucker]

7. +1

[BeFree]

8. This progress

For 70 years the idea never moved forward.
No bill reforming the system ever made it out of congress until now.

Some politicians are working hard to move us back to square one.

What we have witnessed is an historic and forward moving event.
We are on a roll. Keep pushing.

[Fumesucker]

9. Health insurance as a mandate and health care as an option of the free market..

Sounds to me exactly what we got.

Health Insurance Reform was specifically designed to protect the private health insurance industry for the foreseeable future.

[BeFree]

10. Yes. Exactly. Reform happened.

Surely you are not ignorant of the other, personal benefits?

[Fumesucker]

12. The benefits are great if you're an insurance company CEO..

For the rest of us the price is not worth the very minor benefits..

[BeFree]

18. Not true

There have been quite a number of DUers expressing their happiness with the new personal benefits that have been theirs to enjoy.

Maybe if you didn't see this so negatively and work to bust the balls of those right freaks campaigning against 'Obama Care', you might recognize the progress of this reform?

[Fumesucker]

19. And at least as many DUers who say this is a sick joke..

Been out of work for over two years and at my age expect that I'll never work for someone else again..

No money, no insurance, no health care, it's been three years since I've seen a doctor and if I get seriously ill I fully expect to just die.

[BeFree]

22. This isn't about you

This is about the f'n shitheads who have made it impossible for you to have health care.

And about supporting the people who have worked against the shitheads.

[Hello_Kitty]

27. 2 comments above you wax about the "personal benefits" people are getting

And then someone tells you they plan to die uninsured because they don't see themselves being helped by this plan and your response is "it's not about you."

Wow.

[BeFree]

29. Hello Kitty

Ok, lets make this all about YOU.

After all, that is the only thing that matters, right?

So, go ahead. Spill it. Tell us why reform doesn't work for you.

[Hello_Kitty]

31. No, apparently it's about people YOU deem important

And those would be people who praise the plan.

[BeFree]

34. Damn, kitty

No. It is about people, RWingers in particular, who are campaigning against "Obama Care".

And now about cats that run around in a circle chasing their tales and getting NOWHERE.

[Hello_Kitty]

45. Look pal, YOU brought it up in comment #18. eom

[Fumesucker]

30. That's just it, the shitheads have been further enabled by this bill..

And you were the one who brought individuals into the conversation.

[BeFree]

38. Off topic...way off...the topic is

You politicians campaigning against 'Obama Care' need to explain yourselves.

Explain what you have done to reform the bleeding system most of the people endure.

Explain what you might do to make health care a right for all and not a privilege for the few.

To us it looks like a broken system and you are telling us 'Too bad'.

You cons are out of touch with the people. You and your con friends did everything you could to stop any reform.

[el_bryanto]

11. There are countries with very strong healthcare systems

in which private health insurance options play a role. They are very heavily regulated though.

Bryant

[Fumesucker]

15. Since the corporations own our government that kind of regulation isn't going to happen here.

Our campaign financing methods ensure that those with the most money have the most influence in our government.

Health insurance corporations have far more money to spend on influencing politics than does the individual consumer of health care.

[el_bryanto]

20. Yep - we need public financing of campaigns and fair redistricting

That's for sure.

But the implication is that until we can get those things; any health reform is going to be piecemail and, at best, a small step in the right direction.

Bryant

[Fumesucker]

21. And more likely a large step in exactly the wrong direction..

Health Insurance Reform was specifically designed to lock in the private insurers for the foreseeable future, that's why there was no public option even presented.

[burnsei sensei]

16. The rights of health insurance companies

and health care delivery and supply to profit have been protected.
The rights of the people to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness have been repressed.
The outcry has been muted.
The comfortable are no longer afflicted, and the afflicted remain.

[zipplewrath]

26. Roll in the wrong direction

Don't confuse movement with progress.

The only "idea" that "moved forward" was that everyone has an obligation to purchase health insurance, unless it is too expensive for the government to subsidize, then you can go without.

[BeFree]

32. Sorry to do this, but...

...are you, like the pubbies, going to campaign against 'Obama Care'?

[zipplewrath]

35. Is there an election?

What's to "campaign" against? It's been passed, it's law. Congratulations, you managed to pass a GOP health insurance reform plan without a single GOP vote.

I heard alot about "fixing" the flaws in HCR the whole time it was being passed through congress. First the deficiencies in the House plan were going to be "fixed" in the senate. Then the Senate committee bill would be "fixed" on the floor. Then the Senate version was going to be "fixed" in conference committee. Then the passed version would be "fixed" after it was passed.

What fixes are in the works now?

[area51]

46. +1

Each day, 273 people die due to lack of health care in the U.S.; that's 100,000 deaths per year.

We need single-payer health care, not a welfare bailout for the serial-killer insurance agencies.

We don't need the GingrichCare of mandated, unregulated, for-profit insurance that is still too expensive, only pays parts of medical bills, denies claims, and bankrupts people. Republinazi '93 plan:

"Subtitle F: Universal Coverage - Requires each citizen or lawful permanent resident to be covered under a qualified health plan or equivalent health care program by January 1, 2005."

"We will never have real reform until people's health stops being treated as a financial opportunity for corporations."

[Hello_Kitty]

37. Why don't you get off the damn computer and go promote it in your community?

Go down to your local Dem or OFA office and get phone or walking lists of independent and low efficacy Dem voters. Sell HCR to them and persuade them to vote for Dems in November.

I don't know about the person you're responding to, but I don't plan to campaign against the bill and I plan to vote Dem in November. I'm also helping some local candidates. But you will not guilt me into being excited about something I'm not excited about. You think the bill is a great thing YOU should go sell it in the community and stop wasting your time punching hippies here.

[BeFree]

40. Off topic, way off, the topic is

You politicians campaigning against 'Obama Care' need to explain yourselves.

Explain what you have done to reform the bleeding system most of the people endure.

Explain what you might do to make health care a right for all and not a privilege for the few.

To us it looks like a broken system and you are telling us 'Too bad'.

You cons are out of touch with the people. You and your con friends did everything you could to stop any reform.

[Hello_Kitty]

44. I hope you're not suggesting I'm a "con".

And it's not off topic to remind you of your obligation (yes, you have an obligation now) to do your part to promote the benefits of the new law in your community. Don't blame the Repug's for the failure of Dem leadership and enthusiastic HCR supporters like yourself to generate enthusiasm for this plan among voters. If it's such a momentous step forward then it doesn't matter what detractors say about it, right? You should be able to put together a set of persuasive talking points to take door to door or on the phone and get voters excited about HCR.

One suggestion, though. When someone tells you they don't think they'll be personally helped by the plan it's probably not a good idea to snap back haughtily with, "well, it's NOT about YOU!"

[RaleighNCDUer]

52. Stop spamming. If you just repeat the same accusations without

explication it makes it look like you don't know what you are talking about.

"you politician" posted on a Dem discussion board - have you heard ANY Dem politicians call this misbegotten bill 'Obamacare'?

"explain what you have done", again, as if talking to politicians rather than politically minded citizens.

"to us it looks like..." Who is 'us'? And if it looks broken, how does locking in the most broken aspect change that?

"You cons..." Really. WTF? On DU?

If you are going to cut and paste, paste in the right fucking place.

[RaleighNCDUer]

48. Propaganda. If "for 70 years the idea never moved forward"

what are Medicare and Medicaid? Where does the concept of SSI payments come from? When were THEY instituted?

The few good things that were included in this HCR mess could have been passed as individual items but were included only to make the mandated privatized insurance palatable. What has happened with this bill locks into place for at least a generation the idea that medical decisions will be made by some clerk looking at actuarial tables rather than by doctors and patients.

[RaleighNCDUer]

47. Very well said. nt

[bvar22]

57. Not only was there NO Progress in this bill,

the foundation of this bill (Mandatory Purchase from a For Profit Insurance Vendor) will have to be UNDONE before we can take a step forward.

The few GOOD "regulations" contained in this bill could have each been passed with a clean bill.
We did NOT have to eat the whole Shit Sandwich to get them.

To fully appreciate how BAD this "historic reform" is, simply compare it to what is taken for granted in every other civilized country in the World.

The REAL bomb won't explode until 2014 when 40 MILLION Americans are FORCED to BUY worthless Health Insurance they can't afford to use (High Deductibles and Co-Pays).
The Democrats won't be electable for a generation after THAT bomb explodes, so I guess they were smart to postpone that until after the 2012 elections.
They have given themselves time to Get Out of Town before the Tar & Feathers.

The Democrats, and their "historic reform" proved HL Mencken right:
"No one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people."
The proof is right here in this thread.

[el_bryanto]

3. I wonder if we would have been better served by calling it Heath Insurance Reform

Everybody hates the Health Insurance companies; but people fear Health Care Reform.

Bryant

[Lasher]

6. We did, but I think we switched to that verbiage late in the game.

We would have been best served if a real case had been made for single payer, government run health insurance like traditional Medicare. We could have insured everybody and the overall cost would have been no higher. But this fact never really saw the light of day because there was no way that neoliberal Democrats and Republicans were going to allow any business to be moved out of the private sector - no matter what.

[Proud Liberal Dem]

4. Right on the money

I guess it's easier here in America to be against something than for something. Also it seems to be easier to avoid actually being accountable by the corporate mediawhores for fixing problems and governing if you have an (R) by your name. It's easier to beat up on the Dems when their ideas might not be as bold and brave as some might like them to be but at least they're trying. Republicans aren't trying to do anything meaningful for anybody but themselves and/or their corporate benefactors. They have absolutely no ideas, no vision, no plans, no viable alternatives to anything. They just choose to obstruct any kind of progress and make things difficult for the people actually trying to govern the country. Then, when things don't get done, when progress becomes indefinitely stalled, when help and assistance for people gets stalled, when things don't run on time, when government gets SHUT DOWN, then they go out and tell everybody that their government has failed them and that we need to get rid of more it and place more and more of our public assets and services in the hands of private for-profit companies (whom are accountable to nobody and guarantee absolutely nothing to anybody).
Anybody witnessing this macabre spectacle day in and day out can't help but become demoralized, angry, and upset, particularly when the end result is that it hurts real human beings.
Unfortunately, it seems like, at least in recent years, whenever we get a Democratic Administration, they get hobbled too fast for anything meaningful to get accomplished. President Obama has made some pretty significant IMHO accomplishments since he has been in office but, like with President Clinton, is now facing the prospect of a backlash- both from the right AND the left- which will only strengthen and empower Republicans to continue their obstruction of further progress.

:rant:

[BeFree]

14. Backlash

It f'n hurts to see such and angry backlash from the Left. This is not time to be divided, yet here we are shooting ourselves in the feet, while the right laughs at us and tells their lies. And we can't respond to them because we are having to spend too much time healing our self-inflicted wounds!!

[zipplewrath]

51. It hurts to be undermined

I'm still licking my wounds from believing in change. I'm still healing from Rick Warren. I'm still healing from the classification of torture photos. I'm still healing from mandates, cadillac taxes, no drug price negotiations, drug importation from Canada, and the dumping of the public option. I'm still healing from the execution of the SOFA and the escalation of the war in Afghanistan.

I'm still healing from what the democrats have done.

[RaleighNCDUer]

53. Actually, it is the corporatists who are shooting the left in the foot,

for which the left is supposed to smile and say 'thank you'.

You are pissed that the left is exposing this misbegotten bill for the sham that it is?

Too fucking bad. You want a positive reaction, give us a good bill.

[burnsei sensei]

13. Invariably, the people who oppose health care reform

1. have health they are satisfied with, and
2. think no one else deserves their deal.

When the issue is a pile of candy, no one's hurt.
When the issue amounts to the sale of people and life, limb & death, well, you see my point.

[Fumesucker]

17. I have *no* health care, *zero*, *zip*, *nada*..

And yet I think the current "reform" is a sick joke..

[vi5]

24. I have a seriously ill son....

...Technically he will benefit from the "not banning children with pre existing conditions" should my wife or I ever lose our job.

But the insurance companies were given such free reign and such loopholes that we'd probably end up paying more in insurance premiums and out of pockets than we would if we tried to simply negotiate with his doctors.

The "reform" was a bunch of half-assed measures and ridiculous amounts of hoops for people to jump through to get insurance, and a lot of nice, tractor trailer sized loopholes for the insurance companies to drive through.

To say nothing of the fact that it will be easily repealed or dismantled or having funding removed anyway because it didn't end up being as wildly popular as they had assumed.

So yeah, we can disagree on this but the notion that everyone who is "helped" by this is for it and thinks it was a good thing is just simply not true. And I'm not the only one.

[TheKentuckian]

28. I am also uncovered, been without for three years, and was priced out of my last plan

as it crept up to over 15% of my huge underpay and the benefits slashed to the point it wasn't sustainable anymore and was insurance in name only.

I think you are way off base, the Profit Care and Wealth Protection Act is trash designed to prevent structural reform by the Republicans and now adopted by corporate owned and friendly Democrats who have bought voodoo economics hook, line, and sinker.

I guess from a certain point of view you are right. I don't want a soul to have the same care and "deal" I get which is don't get sick and if I do to suck out up. Pulling one's own teeth, doing without glasses, and scoring black market antibiotics as an only answer to a simple infection is exactly the kind of stuff I don't want to share at all.

I don't want a single soul to have this pain in their shoulder for months like this.
I don't want hope and pray to be anyone's primary care provider.
I don't want anyone picking between medicine and food.
I do not want anyone saddled with insurance they can't afford to use even if they can pay premiums that choke off everything else.

[RaleighNCDUer]

55. Actually, I have pretty decent health insurance, as a government

employee.

If the government can get me decent insurance, why can't it do the same for everyone else?

Of course, since our insurer changed from not-for-profit to for-profit it is getting worse.

I don't oppose health care reform - I oppose calling THIS health care reform.

[Fuzz]

23. Single payer, now.

[BeFree]

25. Single payer, next..

..if we can destroy the political careers of those who totally oppose single payer.

'Tis the season to do so. VOTING SEASON. Campaign against them and get out the vote.

[Fumesucker]

33. Health Care Reform is *done*..

Anyone who thinks the Congress is going to revisit health care any time soon is drinking the very finest of Koolaide.

[zipplewrath]

39. Yup

I don't expect anyone to touch this subject for at least 10 years. By then, health care will be so expensive that the population will be screaming for reform. I'm sure by then the GOP will be in charge and we'll get their version of mandates and cadillac taxes. Heck, they were the first ones to propose THESE mandates and cadillac taxes.

[COLGATE4]

36. I'm afraid this is really just wishful thinking on your part. There

are far too many who are deeply invested personally in maintaining the status quo to ever 'destroy their political careers'. My objection is not so much as to what was accomplished, but rather because I believe Obama squandered an opportunity to make a real, fundamental deep change which comes along only every fifty years or so. I predict it'll be your grandchildren and mine's time before any type of genuine health care reform (i.e. something approaching single payer or Medicare for all) is ever under serious consideration again.

[BeFree]

41. So

You give up hope of reform? The pubbies have beat you? No more fight left?

[zipplewrath]

50. Actually, Obama "beat" me

He won on mandates
He won on Cadillac taxes
He won on perscription price negotiations
He won on drug importation from Canada.
He won on leaving out 25 million people.

[burnsei sensei]

56. The refusal to allow people to order their drugs

from pharmacies in Canada is reprehensible.

[another saigon]

42. perhaps because it is NOT Health Care Reform?

Call it the Protecting Insurance Profits act.

[BeFree]

43. Well, I do proclaim

To us it looks like a broken system.

Cons are out of touch with the people cons did everything they could to stop any reform.

[zipplewrath]

49. It is a broken system

And unfortunately we did little to nothing to change that. We codified the insurance companies into law as an obligation, and did nothing to establish that access to health care was a right. We forced people to purchase insurance with little to no assurance that they will actually be able to afford to use it. We codified into law exactly who WON'T get health insurance, based upon premiums and income, and left 25 million people STILL without health insurance OR health care.

Is there a way other than broken to describe such as system?

[another saigon]

54. shattered is more like it

for us not the vampire CEOs. The easiest, most cost effective and HUMANE solution would be Medicare for ALL. But that would be 'socialism' so lets all just DIE.

I have insurance that I can not afford to use because of the skyrocketing increase in premiums, deductibles and co-pays. I am way over due for a mammogram, a yearly physical and I have run out of some meds. And my teeth, don't get me started.

Thank God, so far, I have managed to get my two children into the doctor this year. I was thinking this morning that I should probably get a modest life insurance policy and drop my 'health' (death) insurance all together. That way my children will get something when I am gone.

:(

[gkhouston]

58. I'll let you know, just as soon as some actually happens. n/t