What does a high school diploma "get you" these days?

[SoCalDem]

A high school diploma shows that you put in a certain amount of time in the "system"..12-13 years

It is a necessary piece of paper if you plan to go to college, and even to get a menial job for shitty wages, but does it prove that you actually learned anything?

Does it prove that you learned HOW to learn, or does it prove that you know how to take a test?

If that diploma is used to gain entry into college, for most people, it does little to dull the pain of the piling on of loans.

There was a time when a high school diploma would be the free-pass to a middle class life, but that time is long ago, and now even a college degree does not guarantee much, except for a lifetime of pesky loan payments.

For many years now, school is little more than "free daycare"
for working parents. If you think not, just look around when summer comes along, and you'll see many stressed out parents who are scrambling to find daycare.

The sad thing is that most kids really are jazzed about school when they start, and somewhere about 5th grade (and puberty's onset) , many of them just flat-out lose interest, and unless they have very motivated, fun-loving teachers, many of them never get back in the game.

It's not hard to understand why so many teachers are not enjoying teaching these days..(my son's girlfriend was cut from her teaching job, and now has to rely on "subbing"..but her loans are still due:(..)

If kids do not see the value of their eventual diploma, they may not care much about being in school. They know they have to be there, but if they hate school, they will probably not learn all that much, especially if the lesson plan is mostly set up for the "test".

It must be troubling for kids to see their parents losing jobs, and it's not a big leap for them to realize that if people like their parents, who did everything right, and who may have even gone to college, can lose jobs, what hope is there for them?

[rpannier]

1. An ugly square hat and a new bathrobe nt

[no_hypocrisy]

2. You can still be qualified to join professional organizations like the

police and fire departments with a high school diploma. Or professional trades like electricians, plumbers, etc.

[Throckmorton]

3. Not really sure; but,

I am sure it gets you more than not having one.

[SoCalDem]

6. It does prove that you stuck it out & stayed in school

but if you end up with a shitty job, it's not much consolation.

I would hate to be a kid..:( and I am happy to have graduated when I did.. Most of us back then LOVED school..(well the dead-ender trouble-makers did not), but most of us really enjoyed being there and had a lot of fun while we learned HOW to learn.

Our teachers assigned summer reading lists, and most of the kids really aimed to please their teachers. Our own kids had a hard time understanding how our school experiences were so different from their own.

[Throckmorton]

17. My situation was a little different,

I went to a state run trade school instead of a regular general High School. I was trained to be an electrician, and absolutely loved school. If I had gone to a regular general High School, I doubt I would have enjoyed it as much.

[Dappleganger]

21. More high schools should do this.

It sickens me how working with your hands is looked down on so much in many uppity communities. We have a trade high school here but the other high schools hardly advertise it. The best part is that they are training for what they really want to do right away and it seems far more motivated than the average high school student.

Our oldest daughter who just graduated from high school is in tech school now (cosmetology), so we see their tech high school students regularly.

[raccoon]

31. That certainly wasn't my experience. I HATED school, and so did my sibs.

I didn't enjoy being there and me and my classmates didn't have a lot of fun.

[AnneD]

4. If the high school has a vocational program...

quite a bit. The diploma with hours in a local community college in a trade field is a great apprenticeship and can get you a decent job or you can start your own business. Sadly I cannot say that for all college diplomas. What is the point of taking out 80K in loans for a 32K social worker degree. My little ADN in Nursing has carried me further than my almost (missing a few hours) bio chem BS degree have. It is not the degree-that just opens the door-or use to. It is what you chose to do with it. In the end though, I think luck has a bigger influence than people will admit.

[SoCalDem]

7. Around here the vocational classes are cut to the bone.

In MY high school we had a very big vo-tech component.. In fact the teachers all begged to have their cars worked on & repainted at school. ..and the kids in the art department learned a lot about theatre since they were very involved in scene design..they also participated in the school paper & in anything artistic that the school needed.

[uncommon]

30. No voc schools in your area?

That's too bad. We have them in every county in my area and sometimes local schools depending on the demographics of the community. In the city where I currently live we have a public high school, a public voc/tech high school, and then a couple of private Catholic high schools.

[SoCalDem]

33. around here, they are those pricey post- high school entities

that have been profiled lately on the news.. My son's friend ended up $40K in debt and with a piece of paper that did not help him find a decent job.. He learned a trade (forgot what it was he studied), but when people are not hiring, they are not hiring:(

[AnneD]

36. When they aren't hiring...

that is when you have to hustle and find your own work. Start your own company on the fly. We use to be a nation of independent workers and craftsmen. We seem to have forgotten how to do it. Maybe this economic downturn will have one silver lining...the average worker will become independent again.

For example, I am a Nurse but should I get canned or not find work, I will become an independent contractor and vie for private duty if I have to. My great aunt was one of the first RN's in her area years ago. She worked with the local Dr. and many times took goods in trade for services. She did well-no mansion, but she did well.

[AnneD]

5. Sorry..

double post.

[old mark]

8. In many cases you can say the same of a college degree...it is now a business

selling paper passes to otherwise restricted jobs.


mark

[LWolf]

9. What do you get when you

allow mega/global corporations to move manufacturing overseas, when you persistently, for decades, work to take down unions? Not enough decent jobs for those who aren't suited for, or don't want to go to, college. Of course, the military is always an option. The nation always needs cannon fodder and a large pool of cheap labor.

You also get generations of young people who know that a high school diploma is no longer enough, the stress of trying to get into college whether you are suited to it or not, the stress of knowing that you'll pay possibly more for that college education than it's worth, and that the debt you take on could bankrupt you, on top of not knowing if getting that education will get you a job, because there are simply not enough jobs to go around.

Let's get rid of NAFTA/CAFTA in favor of FAIR trade based on environmental and labor standards.

Let's strengthen and modernize, and strictly enforce, anti-trust laws.

Let's de-privatize every public service and program, and support UNION labor.

Let's expand public education: FREE 100% PUBLIC UNIVERSAL pre-school - trade school or college.

Let's guarantee people jobs after their education is done.

Let's not call people who would actually do these sorts of things "crazies."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x9136851

[SoCalDem]

11. My history teacher brought in an ice cube tray one day

and a pitcher of water..

He told us that we were the water, and after we finished school we would be frozen little cubes..all the same size & density:) and that we needed to "thaw out" so we could flow where we wanted to go instead of being trapped in little box-shaped lives:)

He also brought in films his brother in Viet Nam had sent him & he ended up suspended for a week for showing them to us.. His reason?

He said.. "Lots of you boys will be there in a year, so you ought to know what's going on over there"..

[LWolf]

16. I can understand why he was suspended, although I

certainly agree with him. I really like his water and ice metaphor. I'd like to use it with my own students, except that I'm not sure that they don't need to stay frozen to fit the modern economic system. :(

I attended 3rd - 12th grades, plus college, in So Cal. I graduated from high school just as prop 13 came into being. I've always thought I got a great public education. I remember my teachers, especially middle and high school teachers, as having a lot more freedom in the classroom than we are given these days.

[howard112211]

10. The problem is that 12-13 years of education is not nearly enough

to learn the skills required to do high tech jobs, unless you do early specialization which comes at the price of losing options at an early age and lacking a broad perspective on things.

I just got my PhD in theoretical physics. It took me about eight and a half years to get it, starting from the day of my graduation from high school. That makes nearly 22 years of training altogether. And I am now barely qualified to work in the field. Modern jobs are tough and require a lot of skill and a lot of training. The days of being middle class from assembly line work are over.

Russia and China are said to do early specialization on tech fields. That gives them an edge of about 1 to 2 years, at the expense of not knowing jack shit about literature, sociology etc.

[SoCalDem]

13. That's the sad truth.. Jobs of any consequence these days are so specialized

that basic learning just does not cut it..and then when you have invested so much time & money in further schooling, you end up 30 yrs old, and find that what you trained so hard to become, is now being done in China & India for $20K a year or less..

We were devastated when our oldest dropped out of high school, but he loved computers, and back then they had little to interest him, so he learned it on his own.. He now has a 6 figure income & travels all over the world with his job..but it still bugs him when he has to tell someone that he does not have a HS diploma.

[uncommon]

27. This is why we need to be teaching kids who can handle it much more complex things than

we currently do. My 6 year old reads on a 3rd grade level, but she will languish in classes designed for the mediocre throughout her public education experience.

School in this country is geared toward creating a literate, minimally capable at math populace that will make valuable employees for low tech work - something has to change.

[Vinca]

12. I would hope a high school diploma would get you a basic level

of education, but that might not be the case anymore. I heard there are many kids showing up for college who have no cursive writing skills.

[SoCalDem]

14. Some kids have to waste tuition on 2 years of remedial math & english

in college:(

[seabeyond]

15. college? nt

[mmonk]

18. A gig on right wing radio or TV for millions.

[a la izquierda]

19. Eh, it got my husband a job he loves.

So he can't complain. He has no student loans like his lovely wife.

[Dappleganger]

20. Our situation has really affected the two older teens.

One just graduated and is in cosmetology school (one year program) and the other is a senior and planning to go to community college for two years, then transfer. We are trying our best to keep them with as low of a debt as possible. It is very frustrating, but we have encouraged them to be as practical as possible.

BTW, our daughter didn't chose regular college for a variety of reasons, but she did well in school (honor roll). I don't think that anyone who doesn't want to go to college should be pressured to go, especially if they know what they want to do in life and are willing to train for it.

Yes, it was hard for our kids to see my husband out of work for so long. We all endured one retracted offer after another, dashing our hopes for well more than a year. They also saw how their dad took a lower-paying job and we are all enduring the difficulty of cutting back once again, as much as possible. But there is still roof over our heads this month, food in the fridge and thank the Lord we have decent health insurance now. There are millions of others who are FAR worse off than us.

[HopeHoops]

22. "Ya want fries with that?"

[uncommon]

29. You might be surprised -- a college graduate I know works at MacDonald's and another

works as a line cook at Chili's and as a janitor at night - and he has a graduate degree.

[HopeHoops]

32. Okay, okay. Maybe a high school grad has to work his way up to McClerk.

It USED to be a foot in the door. And yes, I agree with you. Degrees are almost a disadvantage in some occupations - they scream "wants too much money" to the pointy-haired boss types.

[realisticphish]

23. While I speak from the position of someone who is already out of college

I think that the American tertiary education system is pretty broken. There's too much of a stigma on associates degrees and the like, and too many people grinding out their bachelors when they don't need to. A better system of community colleges and tech schools which get more respect would be ideal.

But then, I also want a million bucks and an X-wing, while I'm wishing...

[SoCalDem]

34. and many things that used to be learned , are now languishing

When I was in college, we ALL wanted to take sociology, psychology, creative writing, philosophy, etc..because it was mind-expanding. These days, those types of courses do not translate into jobs very well, so I'd bet that many people don;t even bother with them:(

[realisticphish]

35. well i did

since I have a degree in psych :D

But I think the real problem is the joke that is "electives." Unless you're majoring in something with very few core classes, you just don't have time to take other stuff. I spent a year in engineering, with three semesters of honors physics, and three years doing the BS track (as opposed to BA) of psychology, which included advanced research courses, and what did i have to take the last semester of my senior year? Astronomy 101. Because I "hadn't fulfilled my science requirements."

It's total bullshit. I didn't get to take underwater basketweaving, or any class outside of my major that I really wanted to take aside from maybe one or two, because I had to get that gosh darned elective. College administrations expect students to behave like adults, yet treat them like children when it comes to class selection. The way I see it, there should be a core standard for your major, and everything else is up to you.

[lunatica]

24. For that matter what does a college degree get you these days?

A lot deeper in debt than a high school diploma, and under-employed

[uncommon]

26. Amen to that --

I wish I hadn't gone to college a lot of the time.

[Lance_Boyle]

25. Depends - are you also good at sports?

If yes, that diploma lets you put in 1 (or zero, depending on sport) year in college before making brazillians. If no, it really just means you don't have to go to high school anymore.

[Moondog]

28. You are qualified to ask "Paper or plastic" or

"can I supersize that for you." Nothing else.