On the Advice of the FBI, Cartoonist Molly Norris Disappears From View

[AngryAmish]

"You may have noticed that Molly Norris' comic is not in the paper this week. That's because there is no more Molly.

The gifted artist is alive and well, thankfully. But on the insistence of top security specialists at the FBI, she is, as they put it, "going ghost": moving, changing her name, and essentially wiping away her identity. She will no longer be publishing cartoons in our paper or in City Arts magazine, where she has been a regular contributor. She is, in effect, being put into a witness-protection program—except, as she notes, without the government picking up the tab. It's all because of the appalling fatwa issued against her this summer, following her infamous "Everybody Draw Mohammed Day" cartoon."

As you can see, all religions are the same. Do you think Andres Serrano of "Piss Christ" fame would dare show his face in public? Oh wait...

[dmallind]

1. Not measuring the same thing

The only difference this anecdotal piece of "evidence" meausres is how scared people are of Muslim overreaction versus how scared they are of Christian overreaction. Given the ten-year non stop media push that trumpets every bit of Muslim overreaction at high volume and ignores Christian overreaction this is understandable, but in no way measures what the actual behavior is of Muslims vs. Christians is at the extremes of either group. Doctors like Tillman and Slepian (sp?) are dead because they feared Christians too little. Salman Eushdie is alive and a public figure (more prominent than Serrano whom I suspect few could even name let alone identify) showing he feared Muslims too much. Neither indicates the relative level of risk from either group, just the level of fear.

[AngryAmish]

2. How many years did Rushdie live underground?

Many. He even apologized.

Thug's veto is still the thug's veto.

[dmallind]

3. Why is that relevant - he feared too much, and both incidents measure only fear.

How many years SHOULD Dr Tillman have lived underground to escape the Christian fatwa? How many would have saved him to live as Rushdie is living?

EDIT TILLER dammit - my mistake.

[happyslug]

39. And the killer was an irrational person, that justified his action through religion

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Tiller

His killer was ruled sane, but was clearly NOT thinking rationally. People have to remember Sanity is very hard to prove, you MUST show you were completely incompetent. The classic example is if you think you are Napoleon Bonaparte BUT also know who your heirs are and what property you own, you are SANE for purposes of making a will or doing a criminal act. On the other hand if you killed someone to revenge Josephine (or as the first step to "regain" power as Emperor of France) that is a different sets of facts and shows insanity.

My point is being irrational and insane are two different concepts. Related but different. Dr Tiller's killer was ruled to be sane, but I question his rationality. He knew when he killed Dr.Tiller he was doing a crime and thus was sane, but how can we see him as rational when he talked himself into killing Dr Tiller as a way to prevent abortions?

[happyslug]

13. And did anyone actually try to act of the Fatwa?

The answer is NO (and it has been withdrawn). Furthermore his book was an insult to Islam, the Cardinal of New York, after reading it made that comment. Rushdie titled the book HOPING for a Fatwa so he could sell more books. Once book sells fell off, he apologized and the Fatwa was withdrawn.

In simple terms everyone involved was happy, anti-Muslims had a book to read, the author sold even more books and the Religious leaders of Iran had someone to condemn. A lot of hot air over NOTHING. The same with the cartoons in question, the FBI can claim they did something for a liberal, the Artist could claim her cartoons were so good, that Muslims wanted to kill her. Muslim leaders could issue condemnations knowing no one will carry them out given the distance and that she lives in the US. Some nut MAY take up the issue, like the attempted Assassin of Reagan, he tried to kill Reagan to impress an actress who did not even knew he was alive, but such cases are rare, not unheard of but no one counts on them. People count on people acting rationally, and that what happens in 99% of the cases (i.e. no one gets hurt). You can NOT stop irrational people, but such people have a problem getting a plan together (They are irrational for good reasons) thus rare for them to cause any problems. If such people do so, it is generally against a well know person, like a President, some other well known Politician, an actor or actress or other well known person NOT an artist that people only known by their art (in this case a cartoon).

My point more nonsense about nothing then any real threat to anyone.

[BlueCheese]

14. According to Wikipedia

There was a failed assassination attempt in which a bomb went off prematurely, killing the bomber and destroying part of a London hotel.

Also, the Japanese translator of the book was murdered and two other translators escaped assassination attempts.

I didn't dig any further to verify these incidents.

[MilesColtrane]

40. "And did anyone actually try to act of (sic) the Fatwa?"

Yes

"and it has been withdrawn"

No. Only the Mufti (issuer of the fatwa) can rescind it.

Khomeini rejected Rushdie's apology and died without calling off the fatwa against him.

"anti-Muslims had a book to read"

"The Satanic Verses" is no more anti-Muslim than "The Last Temptation of Christ" is anti-Christian. Rushdie was raised in a Muslim family.

The "Verses" is considered blasphemous because it depicts an incident involving the prophet that was widespread in verbal accounts and commentary on his life (hadith and tafsir) before the Qur'an was written.

[SnakeEyes]

16. The number of acts by radical muslims

is far greater than the a few abortion doctor murders.

[dmallind]

19. So is the number of acts by radical Christians. They are just the only ones that seem to get press.

[SnakeEyes]

23. Sorry but I'm going to need more than just

"the media isn't reporting them."

The number of acts by radical Muslims far outnumbers the acts by radical Christians doing so in the name of their religion. Most acts, such as an abortion doctor killing, have a lone or few victims. Radical Muslims try to kill as many people as possible in many of their attacks. Then when first responders arrive they often strike again to kill them too. They other reason radical Muslims are a far greater threat is there are real and sizable organized groups that all expose their radicalism with many of them willing to act. The groups have financial support, some have some government support too.

So please, until you can show me otherwise... spare me the anti-christian, muslim apologetics.

[dmallind]

34. You don't even know what apologetics are so you can't be sp[ared them

I have said not one word in defense of Islam. I have just said Christians do the same stuff.

You can do research too. Start with kids killed by parents who refused to take them to doctors because of Christianity.

[bergie321]

124. A couple months ago

A pipe bomb exploded outside of a mosque packed with people praying. This was in Florida. Practically 0 media coverage.

[Lance_Boyle]

33. Olympics bombing - Christian rightie (who was also an abortion clinic bomber)

Nevermind the long inglorious history of that original christain right movement, the KKK.

Religiotarded fucksticks of all stripes do stupid religiotarded things. I think you'll find that the history of christain violence in this country is far longer than muslim violence or jewish violence. In Israel, muslim violence is just now catching up with jewish violence. And don't forget the hindu violence around kashmir...

[Bragi]

49. Any evidence you'd like to offer?

[PeaceNikki]

103. Unless you count sexual assaults and pedophilia

Oh wait, we don't talk about that.

[jobycom]

122. You left off a million or so dead Muslims from our overreaction.

Or have people forgotten Iraq and Afghanistan?

[hack89]

125. How many of those deaths in Iraq were due to Islamic terrorists?

all those car bombings, kidnappings and murder were Muslim on Muslim violence. Al Queda of Iraq was waging war against Shia heretics just a much as they were waging war against America.

[jobycom]

127. Dunno, but they were all due to our unjustified invasion.

We destroyed the government there, we allowed the "Al-Qa'ida in Iraq" group to form, and we created the Civil War conditions that allowed ruthless thugs to settle old scores, just as happens in this nation during riots or any time law enforcement breaks down.

But that's irrelevant. We had no right, business, or justification to invade. We did so only because they were Muslim and the 9-11 attackers were Muslim. We invaded, we bombed, we unleashed hell, and we set the worst of our own society loose to murder for sport and rape for power and torture for pleasure. We wouln't have done that if Iraq had been Christian. It was their religion that allowed us to ignore all concepts of good and evil.

[hack89]

129. You miss my point

Islamic fundamentalists have racked up a horrific death toll of fellow Muslims for ideological reasons. We did not kill a bunch of Muslin for ideological reasons.

[DirkGently]

142. Violence in Iraq was largely political, not religious / ideological

[hack89]

162. I very much disagree

at least as far as al Queda of Iraq is concerned. They were some serious fundamentalist nutcakes. The Shia militias had their fair share too.

[DirkGently]

163. Al Quaeda? Which was only there because of the U.S.?

The majority of the "Muslim on Muslim" "terrorism" cited in the post I responded to was factional fighting driven by the deposed Sunni ex-Saddam / ex-military people. To suggest that Al Quaeda violence was somehow inherent to Iraq before we showed up and invited them is a stretching pretty hard.

Regardless, all of this misses the point. Religion is simply bound more closely to culture in the Middle East at the moment. It's not somehow "because" Islam is inherently "more violent" than Christianity or Judaism, for example.

[leftynyc]

167. Sunnis and Shites were

blowing eachother up long before we stepped foot in either Iraq or Afghanistan. I know it's popular around here to blame the Christians for the violence over there - that doesn't make it any more true.

[Hissyspit]

161. And Serrano recieved death threats. nt

[merqz]

181. Except that the level of fear

is correlated to the actual risk.

[Edweird]

4. But it's 'the religion of peace'. I'm sure the FBI is mistaken.

[Fumesucker]

5. Someone should tell Dr George Tiller not to be afraid of Christians..

Oh, wait.. He's already dead.

[dmallind]

6. And Gunn, and Britton, and Barrett, and Lowney and Nichols and Sanderson and Slepian

and that's just over abortion, just in the US, and in the recent past.

Larry Hooper anyone?

[Fumesucker]

7. And let's not forget the Centennial Park bombing in 1996..

Christian Eric Rudolph also bombed several other places..

[dmallind]

8. Of course. His fatwa got Sanderson too, but not just abortion bothered him!

I have neither the time nor the keyboard life to list all the kids killed by biblical discipline and godly (i.e. no) medical care either come to think of it.

[dmallind]

10. To be clear, I would never say there are NOT crazy Muslim loons just as bad

But it is absolutely outrageous to pretend there are no Christian ones. They really ARE the same in this regard. Most of both are reasonable. Some of both are wacked out loons who let their religion dictate stupidity, and some of both sets of wacked out loons are willing to even kill for their imaginary friend. I personally am at much more risk from Christians, as I live in the US among mostly Christians and am nowhere near any likely target for foreign jihadists. If I lived in Saudi Arabia I would be at more risk from Muslims. If I lived in India I would be more at risk from Hindu fanatics who are also the same as above. There is nothing special about the loony fringe of Islam beyond media attention.

[Fumesucker]

11. I agree with both your statements.. n/t

[SnakeEyes]

22. Eric Rudolph's crimes were not religiously motivated

Despite the loose and little connections that some people made immediately following his arrest that persist today. Sorry but this, like citing McVeigh, is said by Muslim apologists, or anti-Christians, that want so much to be seen as tolerant and even handed (or are Muslims themselves) so they try to say that radical Muslims are no more a threat in the world than Christians. Unfortunately, for the many peaceful Muslims, they presently are

[Fumesucker]

24. Right, anti abortion and anti gay fanatics are secular..

:eyes:

Go peddle that crap where someone will believe it..

Rudolph bombed reproductive health clinics and gay nightclubs in addition to the Olympics.

I don't like Islam any more than I like Christianity and I have no problem criticizing violent Muslim extremists but I also have no problem criticizing violent Christian extremists.

[Mimosa]

55. People can't discuss the threat to free expression from Muslim extremists..

..without some people hijacking the topic with anti-Christian posts.

Yes, we're all afraid of those Methodists, Episcopalians, Presbyterians with their fatwas. Not to mention beheadings...

[Fumesucker]

80. Do you deny that Christians fanatics have shot and bombed people?

I don't deny that Muslim fanatics have killed people.

I don't think all Christians are homicidal fanatics, do you think all Muslims are homicidal fanatics?

[Mimosa]

93. Don't be silly

My best bud is Muslim. My doctor is observant Muslim.

I doubt you read any of my previous posts on the subject..

But every time somebody posts about the savage brutality of insane Islamists, somebody else tries to make out that christians pose an equal threat.

Sorry, They don't.

[Fumesucker]

113. Who is a threat depends on who you are and what you're doing..

Muslim extremist fanatics didn't kill Dr Tiller.

Christian extremist fanatics aren't threatening cartoonists.

[cliffordu]

151. yep.

exactly. both are insane.

[dmallind]

38. Absolute shite. It's just a coincidence he was a raving fundy and bombed abortion clincs??

That he posted his writings on a website called the Army of God and listed Psalm 144 as the title of his screed?

[DirkGently]

143. Err. He was linked to a *Christian terrorist organization* called the "Army of God"

... which claimed responsibility for his bomb attacks.

In letters sent to the media, the Army of God claimed responsibility for the bombing of an abortion clinic and a gay bar in Atlanta, GA. Eric Robert Rudolph was on the FBI's Ten Most Wanted List prior to his capture in May 2003. He pled guilty to these crimes.

http://www.prochoice.org/about_abortion/violence/army_god.html

[merqz]

182. and over a dozen people were killed due to just the

PLANNED Quran burning by Jones (which of course never happened).

[xchrom]

9. Tiller isn't even the only dead person because

Of Christian extremists - just stuck in our popular
Memory.

The op is publishing what amounts
To an anti-Muslim screed - a fatwa if you will.

[Jackpine Radical]

12. Well, there WAS

that whole Inquisition thing.

And the Crusades.

And that little problem with the Albigenses.

And...

[SnakeEyes]

15. Yes, it's anti-muslim....

to report on a woman under threat by radical muslims according to the FBI.

[leftynyc]

18. Do you beleive

the wide berth islam gets around here. Christianity bashed non-stop but pointing out a cartoonist must be in hiding or may get killed and the diversions - look over there, look over there - stack up. Pathetic.

[dmallind]

20. I don;t believe the stupid claim that Xianity has no such loons, which is why I showed otherwise

[leftynyc]

21. Please link me

to the comment that said Christianity contains no loons so I can argue against it also.

[dmallind]

36. The fucking OP!

He claimed that the religions are not the same because Serrano can walk around in public. So can Rushdie. Tiller can't.

[leftynyc]

47. Neither canTheo Van Gogh

Do let me know when Christians, Jews, Buddhists riot over a fucking cartoon.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

107. Um, OK.

All the islamophobic teabaggers decided to go nuts when that cartoon South Park decided not to endorse their bigotry.

There have been several arsons, at least one pipe bombing, and that cabbie that got stabbed in NYC.

[leftynyc]

159. The bigotry is on both sides

That's my point. It's not like the teabaggers are hostile for no reason whatsoever. They are smearing 1.4 billion with their hatred the same way the jihadists aren't too particular on which Americans they want to kill. Except, of course, those who sawed off Danny Pearl's head after asking if he was Jewish - we know who they hate.

[Chan790]

139. In a slightly wider interpretation of your question.

The inciting incident of the "Great Schism" of Christianity (along with the almost-numberlessly-vast purges, murders and excommunications (back when excommunication was a functional church sanctioned death warrant...not that far from a fatwa in essence.) it caused) was an argument between Rome and Constantinople over whether artwork of Christ and Gospel scenes constituted idolatry.

How many people died as a result of the Great Schism? More than have been killed under fatwa in the history of Islam...we're talking a factor of 10x if not 100x.

Note the absence of the disputed art-subjects in religious art in Orthodox churches to this day.

[leftynyc]

158. Do you really think it's honest

To have to go back to the great schism? So many hundreds of years ago. Are you admitting how backwards Islam is? How in need of an enlightenment the religion is?

[Quantess]

105. I believe the reason for the increased level of apologists for muslim-extremist-violence here on DU

is because of the very real increase in islamophobia in the US lately. DUers increasingly want to jump to defend ALL muslims, no matter how violent, misogynistic, or intolerant they are, because they see intolerant right-wingers bashing ALL muslims.

The shades of gray are sharpening onto only black & white, it seems.

[True Earthling]

25. Are you equating a doctor performing serial abortions with a woman drawing one cartoon?

What is your point?

A. Muslim reactions to cartoon drawings of Mohammad are equal to Christian reactions to abortion.
B. Christians are just as bad as Muslims

Not sure what your point is.

[Fumesucker]

26. I'm equating religiously motivated violence..

With religiously motivated violence.

[True Earthling]

27. OK - but the two examples are not equal.

Don't you agree?

[Fumesucker]

28. No, I don't agree..

A rose by any other name would smell just as sweet.

Religiously motivated violence is religiously motivated violence is religiously motivated violence.

[xchrom]

30. here is a beginning list for you re: christian violence

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-abortion_violence

Anti-abortion violence is violence committed against individuals and organizations that provide abortion.<1> Incidents of violence have included destruction of property, in the form of vandalism, to crimes against people, including kidnapping, stalking, assault, attempted murder, and murder, to crimes affecting both people and property, including arson and bombings.

Anti-abortion violence is most frequently committed in the United States, though it has also occurred in Australia, Canada, and New Zealand. G. Davidson Smith of Canadian Security Intelligence Service defined anti-abortion violence as "single issue terrorism".<2> A study of 1982–87 violence considered the incidents "limited political" or "subrevolutionary" terrorism.<3>

and your use of 'serial abortion' is telling.
Tiller was providing a much needed medical service for women -- his was a very public execution -- meant to deliver a message of fear and threat that outweighs a fatwa in this country -- given the history of extremist christian to resort to violence.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

31. I think that George Tiller was a better person than this bigoted cartoonist.

I haven't got anything bad to say about George Tiller.

Do you?

[MilesColtrane]

42. I don't believe Molly Norris is a bigot.

This is the cartoon that got the fatwa issued against her.

ttp://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/d2/Everybody_Draw_Mohammed_Day.jpg (add an "h" to the beginning of the URL)

It's more pro-First Amendment than it is anti-Muslim.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

43. She purposefully intended to insult muslims, for the sake of insulting muslims.

In the same way that Terry Jones intended to insult muslims.

She even referred to any muslims who might be offended as "terrorists."

She's a fucking bigot.

[MilesColtrane]

45. She is referring to the bloggers and operators of the web site Revolution Muslim as terrorists.

Here's another one of her cartoons.


http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_Nfj6fDl0xes/TCJmknUvF8I/AAAAAAAACBA/9KcCUV4c7JQ/s1600/molly+norris+cartoon+on+veil.jpg

What a fucking bigot, hunh!?

[roxiejules]

46. It was a cartoon....

[Bragi]

54. So what? She has a free speech right to offend Muslims.

And Muslims have a right to respond in kind if they feel offfended. This doesn't include the right to threaten or do harm because they feel offended.

It may be illegal to offend Islam in countries governed under Sharia law, but not in the United States.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

60. I'm not saying she didn't have the right.

I'm just saying she's scum, and Tiller was a better person than her.

[Bragi]

63. You think she deserves to have to be in hiding? /nt

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

66. Well I'm not crying any crocidile tears.

[Bragi]

68. I lament whenever free speech is attacked /nt

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

70. I lulz when bigots get pwn3d.

[Bragi]

75. I support the first amendement rights of bigots /nt

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

77. So do I.

Also, karma.

[leftynyc]

168. You're freaking insane

a person has to go into hiding because someone's feelings got hurt and you're laughing about it? You are twisted. I haven't used the ignore feature since the primaries but you are just vile.

[Mimosa]

57. This is America. Comics, cartoons and such are constitutionally protected speech.

Nobody deserves a death sentence for expressing an opinion!

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

71. Hawaii is the 50th state to enter the union.

But that's neither here nor there.

[merqz]

184. No, she intended to depict Mohammed

to fight back against the idea that this ONE depiction, as apart from all others, should be eliminated from discourse because of violent extremists.

If any other religion had reacted violently to depictions of their sacred figure(s), the same strategy would apply. Fight back against the extremists.

[merqz]

183. I agree

I see no evidence that she is an anti-Christian bigot, any more than South Park is bigoted against Muslims.

South Park has depicted Jesus as a talk show host, a violent insecure man, etc. etc. They depicted Buddha snorting coke. They depicted Moses as a Tron-like figure. They depicted a meeting of Catholic authority figures trying to figure out ways they could better rape young boys and get away with it. They skewered Mormons (dumb dumb dumb), Scientologists, etc. etc. They are not bigoted against Muslims. But it was ONLY their depiction of Mohammed that caused Comedy Central to go into damage control mode.

Pushing back against violent extremists is not bigotry.

South Park proved that you can make fun of ANY religion without much more than a whimper EXCEPT for Islam. They even got away with skewering Scientology without being sued (the final credits are hilarious in this regards).

[Quantess]

115. I agree that it's false equivocation.

Today's focus seems to be on apologizing for Muslims' religiously-motivated violence by pointing out that other religions have violence, too.

edit grammar

[DirkGently]

144. No, it's a false claim that Islam is the problem, that's the problem.

Violence and radicalism and intolerance are wrong whenever they occur. The discussion is derailed not by people trying to equate Christian radicals and Muslim radicals, but by people positing that the "problem" is Islam itself, paired with a suggestion that Christianity is somehow an inherently more peaceful or reasonable IDEOLOGY.

It isn't.

[Quantess]

150. And I also agree with what you are saying.

But, there is a false equivocation in comparing Muslim extremists with any other religion, in terms of violent intentions. I don't know where religion ends and culture begins, when it comes to christianity or islam. Islam is a religion of "peace", but yet, do we not see a lot of evidence to the contrary? The bible is full of violence, and yes we do see a lot of aggression and wars in the name of christianity, but does that guarantee that christians are necessarily going to be more violent because of what their holy book says? Dumb people are spurred on to violence by rabble rousers like Glenn Beck, or an equivalent muslim bonehead.

BTW, I am a non-religious, slightly spiritual, agnostic.

[DirkGently]

164. I think I see where you're coming from, but if people are

determined to figure out which religion is "more violent," there's simply no answer. Crusaders and the "Army of God" were and are, respectively, every bit as disturbingly amoral and bloodthirsty as an Al Quaeda beheading. The reason these discussions always go off into the weeds is that Muslim extremism is typically offered with some smirking nonsense about "The 'religion of peace,' eh?" which leads others to point out that the Jesus People have tortured, raped and murdered millions, and many would love to continue that "blessed tradition" today.

I think the very simple fallacy at the bottom of all of this is that there is no "winning" a cultural / religious war. No one's is "better" than anyone else's. There is a secular, human ethic that people can follow or not follow, but no one's Holy Book makes them somehow sweeter or more decent than anyone else.

[Regret My New Name]

177. I agree with what you said but....

Whenever there is a story about Islamic extremism, there is always a huge number of "what about Christianity" posts. Which I suppose is fine, it kind of moves away from the issue being discussed, but whatever. However, I noticed that when there is a story about Christian extremist, and someone makes a "what about islam" post. That person is usually is attacked for making such a post.

Here on DU, it's not like organized Christianity has held with such high regard that we constantly need to be reminded of its track record. I mean, I would understand it more if this were a more conservative board in which the majority of the posters had some belief in the exceptionalism of Christianity.

[merqz]

185. Nobody I am aware of here

is claiming that Islam is the problem. The claim is that some Muslims are a problem - specifically, those who would threaten, riot, and murder over depictions of Mohammed.

It's not a criticism of the religion - Islam. It's not a criticism of the vast majority of Muslims who would not riot and murder over such depictions.

[Mimosa]

51. Nobody should need to go into hiding over their first amendment right of speech.

Is this still America?

[Bragi]

64. +++++

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

29. Serial abortions?

The fuck?

[JVS]

32. "Serial abortions"?

[Regret My New Name]

178. I'd be more impressed if they were parallel abortions

Talk about skill!

[dmallind]

37. "serial" abortions??

Serial is a term heavily connected with grievous crimes.

My point is actually that Xian reactions to abortions are worse than Mulsim reactions to cartoons (plenty of noise on the latter but FAR fewer deaths)

and that yes Christian loonies who will kill for their faith are just as bad as Muslim loonies who will kill for theirs. How on earth can there logically be any difference between faith-inspired killers?

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

87. "performing serial abortions"

Not even making an effort, huh?

[PeaceNikki]

89. Dying for a definition of "serial abortions"

<<tappping foot>>

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

92. I think

that one has gone into "if I stop posting for a few days maybe they won't ban me" mode.

[True Earthling]

96. You think too much - see below

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

99. Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle applies. -nt

[Regret My New Name]

179. Maybe he meant cereal abortions...

you know, like those nasty concoctions that were really prevalent in the 80's...

[True Earthling]

95. "Serial" definition

From... http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/serial

of, pertaining to, consisting of, or occurring in a series rather than simultaneously

I didn't say serial killings
I didn't say serial murder

If your're suspecting that I'm anti-abortion... you would be wrong.

My point is that the outrage against abortion is more understandable than the outrage against a cartoon drawing. To be offended by a cartoon is irrational insomuch that the cartoon is just a symbol and is not the thing it represents. There's no symbolism (or destruction of a symbol) in abortion. What is destroyed in abortion is living and human-like so the irrationality of outrage is debatable. However, I condemn the murder of someone over either offense.

I don't believe a fetus is human until it is conscious at about 24 weeks.

"The human foetus feels no pain before 24 weeks, according to a major review of scientific evidence published today.

The connections in the foetal brain are not fully formed in that time, nor is the foetus conscious, according to the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2010/jun/25/human-foetus-no-pain-24-weeks

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

97. No, you did not say that.

You exercised the old and proud art of Saying Without Saying.

Not fooled.

[True Earthling]

102. And you hear without listening..

Then you tell me what I meant.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

104. We hear you, we just don't believe what you're saying.

Saying he was a "serial abortionist" because he didn't perform all the abortions simultaneously doesn't make sense.

It's like saying he was a "terrestrial abortionist" because he didn't perform underwater abortions.

Now if one googles "serial abortionist," one finds that it's common rhetoric among all the crazy-ass women-hating lunatics who have the sick notion to call themselves Christians.

Looks like you slipped up, Jack.

[True Earthling]

109. My name is not Jack and it's not chief...

You can believe what you want.. but you're delusional if you think I'm a "crazy-ass women-hating lunatic".

Also, I'm an atheist so that's strike 2.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

110. Orly?

So you don't accept the Lord Jesus Christ as your personal lord and savior?

[True Earthling]

114. Orly? whatever...

Is this a test? No, I've been an atheist since about 14. I went through 12 years of Catholic schools then discovered Buddhism at 20. I don't believe in a personal God. I'm a firm believer of the intelligent, infinite, self-created model of the universe as described by Alan Watts.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

116. I want to hear you say it.

Say: "I, Chief Jack, do not accept the lord Jesus Christ into my heart."

[True Earthling]

117. You're funny... OK - I'll say it if you promise to say...

"I, HiFructosePronSyrup, admit that I am an idiot for believing Chief Jack/True Earthling is a Christian/RW plant on DU"

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

118. You haven't said it yet.

[True Earthling]

119. You haven't agreed to my terms

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

120. You haven't ponied up.

[True Earthling]

121. Neither have you - I'm tired of playing games...

Believe what you want.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

130. Yeah, I didn't think you would.

Sure don't sound like an atheist to me.

[True Earthling]

131. I didn't think you would either...

That would prove you were wrong and your big ego won't allow that.

All you have to do is promise. If you promise, I'll say it first then it's your turn.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

132. You haven't yet demonstrated that I'm wrong.

And you're not going to.

Bawk bagawk.

[True Earthling]

135. delete n/t

[True Earthling]

136. I have proven you wrong...

otherwise you would have agreed to my terms..

If you really believed I was a RW-Xian plant you would have accepted the challenge knowing I would never say what you want me to say. Obviously there's some doubt in your mind because you don't want to take the risk that you would have to admit your wrong. All you have demonstrated is that you're a manipulative egotist.

If you want me to play by your rules you have to play by mine. I'm willing... you're not.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

98. You're dodging.

Try harder.

[True Earthling]

106. If I said "multiple" instead of "serial" would that make a difference?

My point was the girl drew 1 cartoon whereas the abortion doc Tiller performed thousands of abortions which shows the hair-trigger reactions of Muslims compared to Xians. Serial was the first word that came to mind.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

108. No.

What's wrong with performing multiple abortions?

[True Earthling]

111. Nothing wrong with multiple abortions...

Was just trying to contrast it with drawing one cartoon to emphasize the ridiculousness of the comparison.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

112. If there's nothing wrong, then there is no contrast.

[devilgrrl]

155. "multiple abortions"?????

:crazy:

This good! :popcorn:

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

173. ...

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

148. Yes. It might have raised the red flag for 1% less posters. -nt

[PeaceNikki]

100. OK, chief. We all know the definition of the fucking word, "serial"

Maybe now you could put it in context. It's usually tied to "killing" and "murders" not medical procedures.

[PeaceNikki]

90. Please define "serial abortions".

[EstimatedProphet]

134. What, pray tell, is a serial abortion?

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

147. I can only imagine it's one performed remotely by robot, controlled with an RS-232 interface.

Either that, or right-wing parlance similar to "welfare queens", "death panels" etc.

[EstimatedProphet]

149. I was guessing it to be an abortion caused by ergot poisoning

Oh wait - that's CEREAL abortions. My mistake!

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

176. Hmm, I think you may have stumbled on something.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ergot#Effects_on_humans_and_other_mammals

"The neurotropic activities of the ergot alkaloids may also cause hallucinations and attendant irrational behaviour..."

[devilgrrl]

154. "serial abortions"

What's your point? :eyes:

[Regret My New Name]

180. I'm probably giving him more credit than I should, but maybe...

he's saying that drawing a cartoon is no worse than a doctor performing an abortion and that neither is worthy of death... While sure, both of those actions may offend some people who have religious objections to it, that doesn't give those people the right to murder. Also, even though those actions may offend those people, performing either of those activities does not make one a bigot (as said above)


I know for sure I agree with the first two sentences of what I said. I'm not so sure about the latter, because I think motivation does need to be taken into account. I doubt the doctor was performing abortions to offend Christians. Where as with this cartoonist, I don't know if it was bigotry or actual protest over intolerance of religious fundies. I'd have to see more of her work to know how consistent she was.

[kestrel91316]

17. Go tell it to George Tiller.

[Bragi]

76. Red herring. The issue here is free speech /nt

[devilgrrl]

156. There are anti-choicers who advocate violence against doctors that perform abortions.

Does that fall under "free speech"?

Sounds like the same type of situation to me.

[merqz]

186. that depends on what you mean by "advocating violence"

under current case law, mere advocacy of violence is a free speech right. I can cite the case law if you want.

[kestrel91316]

171. George Tiller is not a red herring. He is a DEAD HUMAN, and dead

at the hands of the religious nutballs who you are defending.

[Bragi]

172. I haven't defended a single "religious nutball". like ever /nt

[xchrom]

35. unrec -

[Fuzz]

41. Bah, no one has the right to not to be offended. Nothing is 'sacred'.

Fucking idiots.

[Forkboy]

44. I think the two religions are pretty much the same, yes.

[Bragi]

52. Then you need to do some research

I am agnostic bordering on atheist, and I am far more concerned about the threat to free speech and individual liberty coming from radical Islamists than I am by Xian wackos.

I arrived at this view by doing a lot of reading. I would suggest you consider doing likewise.

[Forkboy]

56. I've read both the New and Old Testaments, the Bhagavad Gita, and most of the Koran.

Save it.

[Bragi]

Try something on the contemporary politics of Islamic extremists /nt

[DirkGently]

146. Did you read the newspaper? Because Christian wackos are up on points in the U.S.

There's no ideological battle to win here, period. The fact that there's more radicalism in the Islamic world at the moment isn't the result of an inferior or "evil" ideology, it's the result of the political reality of the Middle East at the moment. Neither "holy book" contains any more or less vile ideas, and people born to whichever tradition are not inherently prone to better or worse behavior.

[Mimosa]

53. Oh, that's BS and most people know it

There are various sects within Islam and not all Muslims are alike. The same applies to Christianity.

Forkboy, are you going to allege that there is no difference between a liberal gay Episcopalian or Unitarian and an extreme fundamentalist?

[Forkboy]

58. There's all kinds of subsets in religion, some better than others.

It's all based on the same thing though. And in general Islam and Christianity are pretty close. Let's put it this way, when I read the Bible (both Old and New Testaments), and then years later read the Koran (most of it anyways), they all struck me as being pretty damn close to one another. Believers come in all kinds of shapes, some better than others, but all still believing in essentially the same thing.

[walldude]

48. Wow your religion is better than Radical Islam

now that's something to be proud of... :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[Bragi]

50. I condemn Christian and Muslim violence equally

However, I believe that violence from extreme Muslims against people they feel have offended their religion is far more of a real and significant threat against America and Americans and free speech and individual liberty than is Xian violence against abortionists.

[mmonk]

59. Thank you for showing me that so I now know they are all the same, especially

the American ones who are the "enemy within". Osama bin Laden is the same as Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf. This is unlike other religious groups such as Christians. They are exactly the same just as the Reverend Jones is exactly like a Unitarian Universalist preacher. And a Unitarian Universalist preacher is exactly the same as an IRA bomber. And the Pope is exactly like Billy Graham. And Billy Graham is exactly like Pat Robertson. Timothy McVeigh is the spitting image of Mother Teresa. The Christian Militia movement is the spitting image of the Quakers. And who can forget the similarities of Dr. Martin Luther King and the Christian Knights of the Ku Klux Klan? I see now how all Muslims are violent and crazy and all Christians and other religions saints and righteous.

:sarcasm:

[Bragi]

62. What have you to offer Molly who is in hiding? /nt

[Bragi]

61. Yes, we have a problem. Why is there no left perspective on it?

This incident and the discussion here once again shows me that there is not at present a non-racist, "left" or "progressive" consensus position on protecting free speech and individual liberty against threats from Muslim extremists.

The left has pretty well ceded the field on this growing concern to Tea baggers and racists. I regret to say that if anyone wants to critically inform themselves about what is going on in this area, you end up having to wade through a huge pile of books by right-wing authors.

Conversely, most of what you find coming from so-called "left" sources basically promotes tolerance (which I support in principle) while virtually denying that any threat to free speech even exists arising from the intolerance of radical Muslims.

Meanwhile, Molly is in hiding. That means a problem does exist. I think the left should stop denying it, and start addressing it. We need a progressive, humanist perspective as a counter-wight to the racist anti-Muslim views of the right, which I fear are gaining traction.

[Mimosa]

65. ^ Right! ^

Some of the posts here hijacked the larger issue.

Not only has Ms. Norris been deprived of her right to be safe and free from fear, the Un-American threats have pushed her into hiding.

She has been deprived of her Constitutional rights by threats of violence. That is actually the only issue.

And if she has to hide she can't make a living.

[Fumesucker]

67. If you think the Tea Baggers are pro free-speech you are sorely deluded..

The only speech the Tea Baggers are for is that of other Tea Baggers..

Should Dr Tiller have gone into hiding to keep from being killed by a religious nut?

Do you think the Tea Baggers would have stood up for Dr Tiller?

[Bragi]

69. I said no such thing. Read my words. /nt

[Fumesucker]

72. You words seem to indicate that you think Tea Baggers are pro free speech..

"The left has pretty well ceded the field on this growing concern to Tea baggers and racists."

As I said, they are only pro speech they agree with.

[Bragi]

73. Address the issue or go away

I don't want to play tedious and stupid gotcha wordgames.

Here's the situation:

1. Molly has been forced into hiding because Islamists have threatened her life because they took offense at her exercise of lawful free speech.

2. I think this is an outrage that cannot be allowed to stand. I think the left needs a coherent, thought-out stance on the issue of the threat to free speech represented by this event.

I'm unclear if you think it's a problem that Molly has to go into hiding because radical Islamists have threatened to kill her because they are offended.

So do you think that's a problem or not?

And if you do think it's a problem, don't you agree that we need a left perspective on this, since right now the whole debate seems to be dominated by right wing racists?

[Fumesucker]

78. I was on this thread long before you were..

I'll post what I please when I please.

What the hell do you think we can do anyway?

Just like with the violence against abortion doctors (and others) by Christians, if people are determined to do violence there's not really much that can be done besides taking the best precautions possible.

One thing I have learned is that trying to argue with religious fundamentalists is utterly fruitless.

[Bragi]

82. Good question: What can we do anyway?

I don't have a good answer, but I think we need to have one. If we leave it up to the racist right to propose solutions, as is now happening, then we aren't going to like what they come up with.

So what is a leftist analysis of this threat, and what is a progressive, humanist approach to addressing it?

I don't have the answers, but I am concerned that the left tends to react to attempts by Islamists to suppress criticism through threats of violence by pretending that it isn't actually happening.

Clearly, suppression of free speech is happening now with Molly. We need to address the problem, not deny it.

[DirkGently]

141. There's no real problem when these things aren't offered to "prove" Xtianity is better

as it sadly is here. Go tell Dr. Tiller, indeed.

What keeps getting discussed is the bigoted attitude that bad Muslim acts = "Islam is evil," while bad Christian actes = "One bad apple." I don't think there's any confusion on the left that death threats over perceived insults to Islam are to be "tolerated." The problem is that these incidents are consistently brought up in the context of "Our religion is better than your religion," which is arguably a more problematic fallacy.

[Bragi]

74. Tiller is a complete red herring: the issue is free speech

The issue here is not which religion has the worst radical religious extremists. (Don't get me started!)

The real issue is that an American who has engaged in lawful free speech has been forced into hiding by a group who has threatened her life because they don't like the views she expressed.

Are we good with that, or do we think that free speech trumps anyone's feeling of being offended?

What is the "left" perspective on this?

[Fumesucker]

81. No, the issue is religiously motivated homicidal fanatics..

And the point of bringing Tiller into the conversation is that not only the evil, wicked Muslims kill people for religious reasons.

[Bragi]

83. Okay, then let's take this step by step

So you are are concerned about "evil, wicked Muslims" who "kill people for religious reasons."

Good, me too.

This being the case, perhaps we can agree that we need to make it clear that this is totally unacceptable behavior, and that anyone who engages in it, or encourages it, will be held accountable.

Agreed?

Okay then, maybe we need to put time and effort and resources into educating people that this is unacceptable behavior, and need to make sure that law enforcement has the resources and tools needed to identify, stop and incarcerate any person or group of persons involved in or planning to engage in such behavior.

Agreed?

- B

[Fumesucker]

84. Law enforcement already has plenty of tools and resources..

A great many of which are wasted either in pursuing people who pose no threat to others (eg: the drug war) or in ridiculous and mostly useless "security theater" (TSA being a prime example but there are plenty of others).

As I pointed out, arguing with or attempting to "educate" religious fanatics is basically pointless, they are going to do what they are going to do, you might as well argue with a hurricane.

[Bragi]

85. I'm not proposing arguing with fundamentalists

I don't give a shit about their religious views, what matters to me is the adherents' behavior, and if they represent a threat to the safety of other people.

If a group feel they have a right to threaten or do harm to others should they feel offense regarding their religion, then I think I'd like to see them watched/dealt with/stopped. I'd also favor reviewing sentencing guidelines for crimes aimed at suppressing the free speech of others.

I also wish Obama would invite Molly to the White House before she heads out to her new life in hiding. He could take the opportunity to announce a special Presidential initiative of some sort to address this problem. That would be a good way to start the learning process.

Substantive Edit: removed the word "tedious" before "religious views", other changes

[DirkGently]

145. I would assume we can all agree neither doctors nor cartoonists should be hiding

because of religious fruitloops. There's no qualitative difference between violent intolerance for free speech and violent intolerance for the lawful practice of medicine.

Yes?

[Bragi]

169. My responses

1. I agree completely that neither cartoonists or doctors should be forced into hiding.

2. I don't agree that "There's no qualitative difference between violent intolerance for free speech and violent intolerance for the lawful practice of medicine."

My reasoning is simply that democracy and a free society truly do depend on freedom of expression.

This is not "qualitatively" the same for "the lawful practice of medicine." What constitutes lawful medical practice can vary between different free and democratic societies.

For me, though, free speech is either present or it isn't. There is no possibility that a society can be free and not respect the right to free speech.

Having said that, I would re-emphasize point 1 above.

[DirkGently]

170. I don't think there's much to be gained trying to "weigh" extremists against each other

I'd agree free speech is a more basic component of free society. If we absolutely must get into this weighing of one against another, I think you also have to say that this single, albeit serious situation with the cartoonist, compared to the multiple actual stalking, assaults, and murders of doctors, does not support the notion that Islamic extremism is presently a greater threat to American society.

Again, I think it's this idea of weighing one basket of dangerous nuts against the other out of some kind of need to feel that "our" culture / religions are somehow inherently safer or better that constantly derails the conversation. Threats of violence are the problem, and the idea of justifying it with one version of "god" or another doesn't represent a qualitative difference in my view.

But here's the bigger point. How can anyone ignore the rather obvious, towering geopolitical issues in the Middle East as being the obvious source of the insanity coming from that region? How can anyone reasonably conclude that it's the religion practiced there, rather than the presence of most of the world's oil and the resulting wealth and educational disparities, combined, with Western obsession with the region? Sure, there's a history of violence in the region before the oil rush, but it would take a lot of bending and twisting to successfully argue that Jewish and Christian societies weren't equal players in that.

I just see trying to demonize Islam as a waste of time and a contributor to the notion of "Holy War," which by definition no one can ever win. I think we should be more concerned with keeping that theme tamped down on both sides.

[Bragi]

174. I mostly, but don't totally, agree

First, thanks for you thoughtful reply.

I think we need to focus our concerns on the unacceptable behavior of all dangerous religious groups.

Of course I have problems with Xians who attack abortion doctors. I think we need to understand why this happening, we need to condemn their actions, and we need to name and shame and go after this kind of Xian fanatic.

I also have increasing concerns about the threat to free speech posed by Muslim extremists. I think we need to understand where that is coming from, to denounce it, and to name and shame and go after these kinds of Muslim fanatics.

However, I don't feel I need to, or should, or should want to, tamp down my condemnation of either group of extremists because it may contribute to some growing sense among some of the need for a "Holy war".

I just think we need to think and speak and act clearly and sensibly in rejecting any form of religious extremism. Right now, I am personally more concerned about extreme Muslims than extreme Xians, so that is where I intend to focus. I have no objection to anyone else deciding they want to go after extreme Xians. I don't see us working at cross purposes.

[merqz]

188. I'm not aware that anybody here is "demonizing Islam" maybe I missed that

Can you point me to where somebody is doing this?

[whatchamacallit]

79. While they're at it, can the FBI advise Chuck Norris to disappear as well? (nt)

[dionysus]

88. you win the thread.

[Blue_In_AK]

126. I second that.

And he can take his doppelganger Joe Miller with him.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_hWAVXHNngbk/TIVlv6QBjgI/AAAAAAAAHGg/njjORyFdI-o/s320/Joe-Miller+-+color+adjusted.jpg

[Marengo]

165. If they did, it would be the FBI that dissapears. N/T

[DirkGently]

166. Zing! Chuck-ing excellent.

[Bragi]

86. Shockingly light media pickup on this

As of now, apparently a day after it was announced that this American would have to go into hiding for exercising her right to free speech, google news shows a grand total of 68 news stories.

This is a pathetic pickup for a story of this importance, which should be a headline in every news outlet in America.

I do hope American media don't cave in and start self-censoring themselves on this story because they fear they too will be subjected to a fatwa.

[grantcart]

91. During the Inquisition Christians tortured and burned people for no real reason at

all, especially Jews.


At the time Muslims gave sanctuary and complete religious freedom to Jews.


No all religions are not the 'same' but to compare one religion that is operating during a more enlighted period under secular governments (rather than citing rather horrific past practices) with another religion that had more enlightened leaders in the past but now suffers under wide spread fundamentalism seems rather uninformed.

BTW an expert on NPR estimated that there are approximately 100,000 victims of child molestation in the last three decades in the Catholic Church. (He was commenting on a new round of disclosures of new victims in the Belgian dioceses.)

Not intending to disparage Christianity but just pointing out that religions should not be judged by the actions of a few of its followers.

[Mimosa]

94. Many child victims of sexual abuse were abused by family members and neighbours

1 in 5 females have suffered abuse when they were children. And the abusers weren't priests.

[hack89]

128. Lets fast forward a century or two

name an Islamic country that would grant sanctuary and complete religious freedom to Jews.

Then name a Christian country that would not grant sanctuary and complete religious freedom to Muslims.

[True Earthling]

133. Muslims are all for freedom of religion...

when they are the minority. When they're the majority it's a different story.

[grantcart]

137. Most Islamic countries give complete religious freedom to Jews

But since you asked for one I will start with the largest


Indonesia

The ruling ideology of Indonesia is called Pancasila

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pancasila_(politics)


Here is the exact wording


Chapter XI. Religion Article 29 1. The State shall be based upon the belief in the One and Only God. 2. The State guarantees all persons the freedom of worship, each according to his/her own religion or belief<11>.



Islam is predominately an Asian religion. The three largest Islamic countries are Indonesia, Pakistan and Bengladesh. There are more Muslims in China than Saudia Arabia. But because most of these Muslims live in harmony and don't generate headlines people remain ignorant of the true nature of the overwhelming majority of Muslims, their tolerance and the fact that most Muslims living in countries with Islamic countries live in countries that provide for secular countrol.




edited for spelling

[hack89]

138. Massive fail

The total Jewish population of Indonesia according to the World Jewish Congress <2> is estimated at 20.


Indonesia only recognizes six religions: Islam, Protestantism, Roman Catholicism, Buddhism, Hinduism and Confucianism. Judaism and other religions are not recognized by the Indonesian government.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Indonesia

try again

[grantcart]

175. Jews have the same legal standing in Indonesia that Christians do.

The bigotry of your position is astounding you attack Muslims for being hostile to Jews after centuries of providing safe haven from Christian pogroms and without any sense of irony accuse Muslims of being hostile to Jews only 6 decades after Christian Europe exterminated 6 million Jews.

Its unfortunate that the current problems of Israel has antagonized and disrupted the historical trend of amicable Jewish/Muslim relations but history has shown that it is the Christians who have organized mass murder of Jews not the Muslims.

[RandomThoughts]

101. It is terrible what some do and confuse with religion.

Although it is funny that they erase what they think of as the person that is important in their faith from all imagery.

Maybe it is some form of humility, although I think it is thinking the wonders of God can be contained in text. And not realizing they are adding their own views to text when they do things like violent actions, or threats of violence.

If someone believes it is wrong to make a graven image of something they believe as hevenly, based on what is said in the Ten Commandments, then they should not do it, but they should not go around hurting people that do, it doesn't say that.


And by their view of someone that breaks their interpretation of one of the commandments, couldn't every one of them have the same thing done to them, if they kill, steal, lie, or covet? Although not my view, that sounds like their view, if they say it is for religious reasons, and proof that it is not about the ten commandments. LOL such an action could even be taking the Lords name in vain by some interpretations.

See the hypocrisy, they go around saying people should kill for breaking some commandment, yet only by a choice of importance for some self bias that has nothing to do with spirituality.

Hypocrites, although we all are hypocrites in some ways, so I think it is mostly ironic or ridiculous.

[jobycom]

123. Norma McCorvey had to take different routes to work every day because for fear of Christians

She hid her identity as Jane Roe and lived in hiding until she converted to the anti-abortion side, possibly out of living in constant fear.

Just because we live in a nation dominated by Christianity where Christians are painted pretty colors by the media while Muslims are painted with horns and tails doesn't mean that in any way reflects reality. Christians in the name of their God have murdered doctors, planted bombs in hospitals, threatened young women over abortions, and reacted every bit as violently as our media and some of our bigoted citizens claim Muslims act. In addition, our nation, lead and inspired by Christians declaring a Crusade and stating that we should kill all Muslim leaders and force the rest to convert to Christianity, invaded two nations and slaughtered more than a million Muslims.

All religions are the same. They are mixtures of beautiful people trying to spread peace and love, and violent, psychopathic murderers who fear anyone different than them, and are used by both groups to justify their actions.

[chrisa]

140. These people are certifiably nuts.

Apparently drawing a sketch warrants killing somebody. Read that again if it doesn't sound completely insane the first time.

[Quantess]

152. Exactly.

What is up with the apologists?

[laughingliberal]

153. Well, there are these guys. A little better funding and they'd give 'em a run for their money. nt

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/para/lra.htm

<snip> The Lord's Resistance Army (LRA), led by Joseph Kony, operated in the north from bases in southern Sudan. The LRA committed numerous abuses and atrocities, including the abduction, rape, maiming, and killing of civilians, including children. In addition to destabilizing northern Uganda from bases in Sudan, the LRA congregated in the Bunia area in eastern Congo. They linked up with the Army for the Liberation of Rwanda (ALIR) and other rebel groups that were battling with forces from the Rally for Congolese Democracy (RCD).

The LRA continued to kill, torture, maim, rape, and abduct large numbers of civilians, virtually enslaving numerous children. Although its levels of activity diminished somewhat compared with 1997, the area that the LRA targeted grew. The LRA sought to overthrow the Ugandan Government and inflicted brutal violence on the population in northern Uganda. LRA forces also targeted local government officials and employees. The LRA also targeted international humanitarian convoys and local NGO workers.

The LRA abducted large numbers of civilians for training as guerrillas. Most victims were children and young adults. The LRA abducted young girls as sex and labor slaves. Other children, mainly girls, were reported to have been sold, traded, or given as gifts by the LRA to arms dealers in Sudan. While some later escaped or were rescued, the whereabouts of many children remain unknown.

In particular, the LRA abducted numerous children and, at clandestine bases, terrorized them into virtual slavery as guards, concubines, and soldiers. In addition to being beaten, raped, and forced to march until exhausted, abducted children were forced to participate in the killing of other children who had attempted to escape. Amnesty International reported that without child abductions, the LRA would have few combatants. More than 6,000 children were abducted during 1998, although many of those abducted later escaped or were released. Most human rights NGOs placed the number of abducted children held captive by the LRA at around 3,000, although estimates varied substantially. <snip>

[Quantess]

157. self edit

[Hissyspit]

160. Ugly OP. Serrano received death threats and lost funding.

Not very good equivalence anyway. "Piss Christ" is not overtly anti-religion. It's actually quite a beautiful image.

You take an important news item and throw in a not-very-well-informed attempt at religious bigotry.

[merqz]

187. omg. He LOST FUNDING?

wow. Clearly, a comparable thing.

Also, I love this "quite a beautiful image" thing. That's clearly in the eye of the beholder. As is whether a depiction of Mohammed is a "beautiful image".

Would you say a Quran dunked in urine was a 'beautiful image.' I strongly doubt it. And Serrano may have received death threats. As a contrast over a dozen people have been murdered over a PROPOSED Quran burning...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/sep/13/kashmir-protesters-killed-quran-row

Yea, quite an equivalency...
"More than a dozen people were killed and scores injured in confrontations in Kashmir today following a report on an Iranian TV channel of the desecration of the Qur'an in New York on the anniversary of 9/11.

In the worst day of violence in the Himalayan valley since young Kashmiri Muslims began agitating for independence more than three months ago, dozens of government buildings were torched as protesters battled with armed police and paramilitary soldiers.

The arson and violence was particularly bad in two towns close to the state capital Srinagar – Tangmarg and Budgam, where a school run by a Christian missionary was attacked and torched.

Provincial police chief Kuldeep Khoda said 13 civilians and one officer were killed in the violence."