MSNBC just showed video of a woman having a miscarriage and police refusing

[Maraya1969]

to let her go to the hospital! I can't find a link yet. She didn't have the right tags or something for her car....she was racing to the freaking hospital because she was 4 months pregnant and she was bleeding.

12 hours later after she passed a huge blood clot they finally let her go to the hospital where she delivered a premature baby that lived for 1 minute. The doctors said that had she been able to get help when she needed it they could have stopped the premature birth and the baby would have lived.

I hope these cops go to jail but I don't think they will. An unlawful death suit has been filed.

[MissMillie]

1. If she was bleeding

why didn't they call an ambulance for her????

[Maraya1969]

22. I think she wasn't bleeding a lot at that point. Remember they waited until she

passed a big clot. But that is NO EXCUSE. There was a female officer there and she said something like "You have your period. I know...I am a woman"

Yea and you're also a criminal.

[AngryOldDem]

68. They are DAMNED lucky she didn't bleed to death

That could have gotten very bad, very quickly.

Bring them up on any charges that apply.

[EFerrari]

70. No kidding. WTF! I once called a friend/nurse and she told me to

go IMMEDIATELY to the hospital. And when I got there, they treated me like I could explode at any minute.

What is THE MATTER with people.

[AngryOldDem]

78. This happened to me

Which is why what I read sent chills down my spine.

I miscarried at 12 weeks, just after I had gotten to the hospital. Later I was told that if the miscarriage had happened at home, I probably would have bled to death. It is extremely difficult, from what I understand, to stop a uterine bleed once it gets going. Again -- they are "lucky" it was "just" a clot. Sorry for the graphics, but facts is facts.

Period, my ass. :grr:

[EFerrari]

82. One of my pregnancies was tubal. My friend told me I could go

in less than 20 minutes.

They could have killed this woman and who knows if they did kill that baby

:mad:

[SemperEadem]

134. because she was driving a car

with the wrong tags on it. Priorities!!! The state is being defrauded of tax money!!!! That was more important to them than a woman miscarrying her baby.

Even though she told them repeatedly from when the car door first opened, they chose to judge her as a liar, not a woman in need of medical help. They didn't care that her pregnancy was failing because they judged that she wasn't worth helping.

[AX10]

2. Conservatives will not come to her defense.

They don't like abortions, per se, but they love that old fashioned law and order mentality.

[cascadiance]

58. If they don't then defense lawyers should keep a record of this!

If there are other "unlawful death" suits or prosecutions where an embryo/fetus is claimed to be a person by the right in other cases. If you use this as "case history" on how nothing was done in this instance, especially if anti-abortion groups are contacted and nothing is done, then it will expose any future attempts to go after this sort of event in court as politically motivated and not truly to be "representing the welfare of the unborn". And this was a woman who arguably WANTED her kid too!

[lancdem]

3. Where was this?

That's horrible!

[Maraya1969]

31. It will come on again and I'll give you an update. The woman was Hispanic though

I wonder if that has anything to do with it. :mad:

You can hear her ask, (I think they said 12 times) to be taken to a hospital. Obviously she took the car because it was an emergency and did not think about the registration.

[AspenRose]

87. I hate having to think about that too

When things like this happen, one of the first things I ask is, "were they a minority?"

:mad:

[Broken_Hero]

111. Kansas City, Missouri....

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/P/POLICE_BABY_LOST?SITE=VAROA&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

[Warpy]

4. Good. Police forces have been militarized

and too many cops out there have forgotten who they work for.

You bet this is a case of manslaughter.

I hope this woman goes to civil court, as well.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

9. you got that right.

It is becoming a us v. them mentality - the very underpinning of a police state.

Civil disobedience is therefore absolutely and completely necessary.

[Unperson]

5. Fucking pigs.

[kenny blankenship]

6. they should have taken her straight to the hospital regardless

of whether they thought she was breaking any laws. I don't care if they suspected her of theft, drugs, arson, homicide or WHATEVER, she should have been driven to the hospital. This is horrible, and those cops should go to jail.

[Ian David]

7. I fucking hate Kansas. Can we expell them from the country yet?

Kansas isn't America.

Any DUers from Kansas are welcome to crash on our couch in Massachusetts until you find a home somewhere in America, after we sell Kansas to Albania or something.

[AX10]

10. Kansas and the rest of the dark red states should be sold to.....

Iran or somewhere like that. They are on the same page.

[MuseRider]

35. Read much?

Missouri.

Kansas is not dark red, guess you have not read that either.

As to those who always manage to suggest that we leave...why? Apparently we like it here even if it has people whom you feel are not worthy of citizenship.

[cynatnite]

37. I hear you...

Red stater here. Tennessee. My neighbors, except for one, are all die-hard dems. One of those is fairly conservative and hates bush more than me. We do have a pro-war, anti-choice homophobe not far that we make fun of on a regular basis. I love living here.

[MuseRider]

45. Yes.

:hug: It takes guts to deal with states like this. I sometimes wish I lived in an area that was more Blue but then I would probably not have as much to do and would have more time for other things, like bashing others maybe?

[Alamom]

84. We do serve a purpose...........n/t

[proud2BlibKansan]

94. Hello???

It was in Missouri.

[Maraya1969]

33. That's not fair to the Albanian's

:)

[BuelahWitch]

38. It happened in Missouri

Not Kansas.

[Ian David]

41. Oh. Kansas still fucking sucks. They can take Missouri with them. n/t

[dubyaD40web]

47. Leave KS out of this.

At least us KS Du'ers are here to fight in red states.

[tblue37]

52. Nah--we are busy electing a Dem governor and replacing our RW

rep (Jim Ryun) with a Dem, and persuading moderate Republicans to switch parties to run against (and defeat) fundies like Phill Kline. We are slowly but surely cleaning up the mess. We even managed to throw the fundie anti-evolution school board out on its ass.

We Kansans need to stay here and clean up our state--just as progressive Texans and Virginians need to stay and clean up theirs.

[ComerPerro]

102. Thanks for reminding me why I quit posting here

I came to check out LBN about Molly Ivins, and I drift through forums and what do I see?

Disgusting, uninformed BS attacks from bigots like you.

And you know what?

I would bet dollars to doughnuts that my post gets deleted by the mods here before your disgusting and FACTUALLY INCORRECT attack on my state does.

I'm sorry I drifted back here.


Goodbye.


That's was DU's second chance

[Richard Steele]

103. Don't let the door hit ya. nm

[rocktivity]

8. No excuse--medical emergencies trump legal ones.

All they had to do was have an officer accompany her, or at worst, handcuff her to a bed.

:(
rocknation

[Matariki]

11. just wondering - what minority she is, or economic bracket?

just a wild guess she's not white or middle class...

[Maraya1969]

36. Edit: Just read that she is Sudanese.

And I did not get a good look at the car but I bet is wasn't a Lexus.

[Rosemary2205]

40. The article said she is sudanese.

http://www.belleville.com/mld/belleville/news/state/16588987.htm

[Matariki]

63. *sigh*

what a surprise. not.

[EFerrari]

85. Oh cr@p.

:mad:

[Hav]

12. .

Another unbelievable story...Did they consider it to be funny that she was bleeding? Was it a power trip thing? Sorry Miss, you've got the wrong tags hahaha..

I can only repeat what my thoughts were yesterday about the rape victim that got jailed and where a medical supervisor refused to give her a morning after pill: I hope they get sued and lose their jobs. Jeez, they basically killed her baby!
Why do people who are way too stupid get these jobs that can affect other people in such a way?

[Infomaniac]

13. Here's a link to a news article with more details.

http://www.belleville.com/mld/belleville/news/state/16588987.htm

The news report says that she's "Sudanese." The cop responding with, "How is that my problem?" Unbelievable.

[ThomCat]

15. Those cops need to get fired

and I hope she wins that lawsuit. x(

[Infomaniac]

65. I agree.

The cops showed very bad judgment. They should be fired and the reason given being they're too stupid to be trusted with anybody's life.

[Beaverhausen]

16. Good god- what is WRONG with those officers?

The officers stopped Salva after they saw her affixing a fake temporary tag on the back windshield of her car.

After the officers tell her why she was arrested, Salva is seen telling the officers she is having a miscarriage and is bleeding.

"Do you want to check me?" Salva asks on the tape. "I'm bleeding. I have a 3-month baby inside."

Schnell, who has worked for the department for less than two years, walks away from the car and tells his partner: "She just gave me a line of excuses. She said she's bleeding. She said you can check her."

Salva said: "I'm three months pregnant and I'm bleeding."

Spencer, a four-year veteran, replied: "OK. Why are you driving to the store and then putting a fake temporary tag in your car?"

"I took it because I want to go to the hospital," Salva said.

The officers made Salva sit on the curb as they searched her car, purse and grocery sacks.

Salva again tells the officers that she is bleeding and asks them to check her underwear and says she wants to go to the hospital.

"Well," Spencer said, "that will be something you can take care of when we get done with you."

After a drawn-out process to get Salva's identifying information, Salva is clearly upset.

"I have a baby in my stomach and I'm bleeding and I open my underwear for you to see."

"Stay seated!" Schnell yelled.

"If I die here, will you take care of me?" Salva said. "If I die here?"

"Fair enough," Schnell said.

[Hav]

21. .

Hello multimillion dollar lawsuit? And this time it would be deserved.
Inhumane pricks.

[progressivebydesign]

72. Sounds like she put the tags on to go to the store.. then..

after shopping, realized she was miscarrying and was trying to get to the hospital. She had the groceries and she put the fake tags on the car... I honestly don't think she took the time to put the tags on at home knowing that she needed to get to the emergency room, and she wouldn't have stopped for groceries if she was trying to get to the hospital. SOunds like the tags were put on to go to the store, then she realized she had to get to the hospital. Something wasn't adding up.. and that paragraph answered it.

What is it with the treatment of women lately? Jailed rape victims, medical emergencies being blown off for a tag violation. Yes, I know it's illegal to put fake tags on your car, and she did it for the wrong reason... she did it to go to the store, not the hospital. That doesn't change the way they treated her and denied her medical care.

[EFerrari]

79. This sounds like the type of thing poor people have to do

to get by. I did that once when I couldn't afford my registration and I had to commute to work. It sucks to be poor. :(

[ama]

14. working for the man

¨To protect and to serve¨..but not you, guess who?

[ThomCat]

17. The mostly serve the rich white people

and they mostly protect rich white people.

The rest of us are mostly on our own. :(

[AX10]

25. Basically true.

[saigon68]

18. The Golden Rule

He that got the Gold

Makes the Rule

[Maraya1969]

46. Welcome to DU ama!

Nice to have you here.

[NashVegas]

19. We Live in a Hard World

These cops were total dicks; if they had taken her claim at face value and checked her underwear, would they have still disbelieved her, considering her record? That's quite possible.

[cynatnite]

30. Checked her underwear?? Are you for real?

I don't understand what you mean by 'considering her record'. What does that mean?

The cops should have done their job and called an ambulance. Period. They are not medical professionals and in no way can anyone tell if a woman is having a miscarriage by looking at her underwear.

[NashVegas]

39. Did You Read the Story?

She had an arrest record, and was found putting a fake license on her vehicle.

Officers are then told Salva has outstanding city warrants for mistreatment of children, trespassing and several traffic violations, with bonds totaling $4,600.

ie, they had some cause to disbelieve her. Their wrong was in not immediately moving to verify her claim that something was medically wrong.

[cynatnite]

43. Even with doubting her claims, they still had an obligation to her health FIRST

I worked ERs and we interacted with cops on a regular basis. Any cop worth their salt will call an ambulance when someone asks no matter their record or doubts they might have.

None of this is any excuse for their willful negligence.

[NashVegas]

61. Why Do You Think

I referred to the police in question as "dicks?"

[Katherine Brengle]

120. Very true - anyone who is arrested and claims a need for medical treatment

is immediately taken to the ER, regardless of whether the claim is even true.

In this case, they fucked up really really badly. Most likely someone will get fired over this, and the department sued, which I believe is deserved.

[The Flaming Red Head]

83. After seeing how this PD treats people do you believe any of those warrants have merit

You can put a charge on anyone for anything, and prosecute them, and maybe even get them convicted, (HELL maybe execute them) but that doesn’t mean it’s true.


Look at the Duke case and those are rich white boys.

[bdamomma]

117. also a cold and cruel world.

[Little Wing]

20. Simple minded 'must obey' bastard fucks

[ThomCat]

62. And the more militarized police get

the worse this will get. We'll see tragedies and attrocities more and more often. :(

[Rosemary2205]

23. She was guilty of "driving while brown"

A sudanese woman in Kansas? Was she lost?

[proud2BlibKansan]

95. Oh good grief can't you people read??

This happened in MISSOURI. Kansas City, MISSOURI. And yes, we have a sizable Sudanese population here. And surprisingly, no farms or cows. :eyes:

[AX10]

24. Wonder if their union will come to their defense?

[etherealtruth]

26. Losing their job is too mild a punishment

(...and I doubt that will happen:()

Criminal charges need to be brought.

[RubyDuby in GA]

29. If psycho Kansas is anything like nutcase Georgia, they have laws that

protect the unborn. These two (or anyone else involved) need to be brought up on criminal charges of murder/manslaughter.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

34. No need to.

The baby dies after birth. Go after them with extreme prejudice.

[etherealtruth]

66. Exactly

This was a live birth that ended in death. There is no excuse for the actions of these officers.

[tblue37]

55. Oh, there will be a huge settlement or a multimillion-dollar lawsuit. (eom)

[Dorian Gray]

27. What the hell?

Where did this happen?

[my_pet_wolf]

32. Kansas City ,Missouri n/t

[Maraya1969]

51. Welcome to DU my_pet_wolf....... Nice to have you here.

[my_pet_wolf]

60. Thanks Maraya1969! KC MO is my hometown, though

this kind of crap makes me ashamed to say so. I guess I can still give thanks that I don't live in KANSAS! BTW, I am not new here, just not much of a writer, more of a reader and this is THE place to read.

[slackmaster]

28. Felony expired registration?

:argh:

[SoCalDem]

48. I believe it.. I was stopped and the cop pulled his GUN (expired tag)

I was 20 yrs old at the time.

We had just moved to Indiana from Kansas, and apparently in Indiana, the tags(at least at that time) expired on the FIRST day of the month indicated (In KS, the expired on the LAST day of that month)..

The cop stopped me and tapped on my window with his GUN.. Scared the shit out of me. He said to give him my license and then follow him to the police station.

He turned around so fast, I lost him and since we had only lived there a few days at that point, I didn't know the way to the police station from where I was.

(I was on my way to pick up my husband from working late...I had groceries and laundry in the back seat)

Anyway I DID finally find the police station, but I entered the parking lot going the wrong way up a one way alley, and was then stoppped by a DIFFERENT cop who asked for my license.. Of course I was upset and crying by then, and told him that the "other" cop had it.

About then the "other" one showed up and the three cops had a bit of a chuckle, and then escorted me into the station.

One of them took me into a little room, and sat with me at a table with a phone. That's when I got my phone call.. When I called my husband, he said "Where the hell are you..I've been waiting a half hour.". Luckily , the station was not too far for him to walk to.

Only then, did they even tell me why they had me there..

EXPIRED OUT OF STATE TAGS..

THEY IMPOUNDED THE CAR AND GAVE ME A TICKET AND A COURT DATE.

The only person in town we knew, was my husband's boss, and he had to call his boss to come and get us..and our laundry and our groceries..

It was mortifyingly embarrassing. Luckily his boss thought it was funny, and even loaned us a car.

The day in court was a hoot too. We were the LAST case, and when the judge heard about it, he laughed and said "Welcome to Indiana", and dismissed the whole thing.

Of course we did have to pay $50 in impound fees to get our car back..:grr:

but there is a "karmic" twist to the whole thing.

Two years later that cop "Donald Wozniak" was ARRESTED in an underage girl "party" ring at the Howard Johnson :rofl:

[Hav]

57. .

Hahaha what comes around, comes around!
Did you send him a postcard ;)?
Another one who only enjoyed the power he had. For me, it's not a coincidence that he tripped over an underage girl. These types of guys have some serious issues...

[progressivebydesign]

74. No. She put fake tags on the car. That's considered fraud or something.

I can't remember what. They weren't expired, it was a bogus temp tag that she put on to go to the grocery store.. she shopped, then realized she was miscarrying, apparently, if you read the story you'll see. That was why it was more than a simple traffic stop. Does not excuse what they did, just trying to clarify the situation. Putting the falsified tag on was not related to the hospital trip, as I read it.. she had a car full of groceries.

[LibDemAlways]

42. One time at a parent meeting at my daughter's

suburban school, the guest speaker, a local police officer, let us know that one reason our community is safe is that he and his fellow officers have a policy of stopping cars that don't "fit the profile" of the neighborhood. When I asked what that meant, he said, anyone driving an older car, especially anyone who is non-white driving an older car, is looked upon with suspicion. This was met with nothing but agreement from the residents of Stepford. Unbelievable.

Also, the cops around here, when they do pull someone over, don't care what's going on. They will damn well write a ticket - and take their time about it.

[AX10]

90. Where do you live?

I will never move there.

[LibDemAlways]

101. In a small suburban community right on the

Los Angeles/Ventura County line. When I moved here 30 years ago, this area was considered "out in the country." Unfortunately today it's a sea of McMansions populated by some of the most shallow, idiotic people you could imagine.

With elderly parents nearby, moving is not an option for now, but believe me, it's tempting.

[LibDemAlways]

99. Self Delete

[hedgehog]

129. I bet a lot of people who live in suburban communities would be

sick to find out how their police behave. In New York, we have a lot of areas that would qualify as cities elsewhere but are governed as towns. (Town of Amherst, for example) As the town grew, the good old boys Republican Establishment kept running things and no one really paid attention to what was going on as long as the sewers and water worked. Now they have a Town Supervisor who ran to challenge the Establishment, and you wouldn't believe what he is finding under all the rocks!

[LibDemAlways]

131. My little area is unincorporated, meaning we

basically have no local government except an "advisory council" with no power. They are supposed to inform the county officials 40 miles away as to what's going on around here. Those officials are totally out of touch with this area and take no interest. Our police force, such as it is, is shared with another community about 10 miles away, so most of the time they are nowhere to be found. My neighbor had his house robbed a couple of years ago. It took the police over two hours to show up, and they didn't even want to dust for prints. Just told the victim to get a burglar alarm so he wouldn't get robbed again. It's all a joke.

When the police are around, they are hiding in the bushes waiting for someone to speed by so they can make their ticket quota or waiting for an older car driven by someone with dark skin so that they can go into harrassment mode. Pathetic.

[Az]

44. To Protect and Serve

Used to mean something.

[AndyA]

49. The woman had a record, warrants out for her, etc., so I can understand

why the Police didn't accept what she said at face value.

However, when someone tells you they are needing medical help, I think it is the officer's obligation to make sure they get it. If they don't need it, that's just one more thing to nail them with. But as this sad case proves, sometimes you just don't know, and a police officer must always err on the side of caution. The woman should have been taken to the hospital immediately, or an ambulance called for her.

What happened was horrible. The officers involved should be fired.

[WinkyDink]

54. They most certainly could have accompanied her, or waited until an

ambulance came and had EMT assess her situation.

[fudge stripe cookays]

50. Holy crap.

I miscarried about 9 years ago. Woke up in the morning and was spotting. My doctor told me to go directly to the sonogram location.

I lay there on a gurney for what seemed like hours because they forgot me, and my midsection was too cramped up to yell for help until I got so desperate I finally got someone to hear me, and begged them to do something because I was curled up in the fetal position and was in so much pain I thought I would die.

This poor woman. I can only imagine the pain and horror she was going through from these Nazi jerks. I hope she sues them BLIND. They killed her baby.

[Arkansas Granny]

53. I googled and found this link.

http://www.belleville.com/mld/belleville/news/state/16588987.htm

[schmuls]

56. I bet the m-f-g chimp would love to read about this...but he doesn't

read, does he? Oh yeah, he read a "few Shakespeares". He would love to see local police start acting like stormtroopers. Take police PAID BY OUR TAXES and use them like Gestapo. Don' provide basic services OUR TAXES HAVE PAID FOR. Arrest rape victims because they have outstanding fines.Round up everyone, especially minorities, and put them in those camps the Neocons have built and the ass-licking media heads never report on!! GGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[redqueen]

71. "... start acting like..."

Start? Hasn't this been in process since the beginning of the so-called "war on drugs"?

We're nearly there.

[philosophie_en_rose]

59. I feel so bad for her. They should have called an ambulance.

Those police men need to be fired immediately.

Not only should they NOT have prevented her from getting to the hospital, they should have damned well called an ambulance. Or - if one is not available for some reason, taken her to the hospital in the police car.

What the hell! If ANYONE is BLEEDING during a traffic stop for a lapsed tag, the officers need to let the tag go. Maybe the woman was in no condition to be driving, but they could have handled that without causing her to miscarry.

On edit: Even if this woman had a criminal history, there is NO excuse for the police in this situation. This was a non-violent situation and no one was in danger. The only reason NOT to take this woman to the hospital is the convenience of the officers. That is not a good enough reason to risk someone's health.

[JuniperLea]

64. i'm just sick

:cry:

[nadinbrzezinski]

67. The lawsuit will be more than just justified

and yep the cops are liable

[lumberjack_jeff]

69. "An unlawful death suit"? I'm confused.

An abortion is a medical procedure, but a preventable miscarriage is manslaughter?

I'm not suggesting that the cops don't deserve punishment, I'm just asking if it is prudent for us pro-choicers to use homicide as a rationale.

[redqueen]

73. Are you kidding?

This woman obviously wanted to have the child.

[lapislzi]

122. Her desire for the child doesn't make it a viable living being

So by your logic...if you don't want the child it's not a child, but if you do want it, it is? That does NOTHING for the pro choice position, thank you very much.

[redqueen]

124. It's not a child yet.

If you want to carry a fetus to term, then you have the right to prosecute someone for taking that choice away from you by negligence or malicious harm.

If you don't wish to carry the fetus to term, then you have the option to abort.

How is this confusing for you?

[schmuls]

75. I can't figure out what you are talking about. Their actions

prevented a very much wanted child from being born. Their arrogance led to the death of a viable unborn child. (!!??)

[proud2BlibKansan]

97. She was already miscarrying when they stopped her

and she wasn't far enough along to have a baby survive.

[Maraya1969]

100. Many times a premature birth can be stopped with drugs. That way the child

can stay in the womb and grow until it is able to live outside. I am sure this baby did not have a chance if it was delivered. The fact that they refused treatment to STOP THE DELIVERY is where the wrongful death occurred in my opinion. Hell even making her sit on the sidewalk hastened her delivery! That is why many "at risk" pregnancies require a woman to lay in bed so as to remove one more risk.....gravity.

[proud2BlibKansan]

104. Yes I see your point

thanks

[AlienGirl]

77. The fetus was delivered alive

While it sounds like it was probably at the limits of viability outside the womb, it was born and drew breath.

Tucker

[lumberjack_jeff]

96. Did the cops interfere with the newborn's care?

At birth the baby became a person. After that time it's possible to commit wrongful death.

Prior to that point, it's a fetus. There are a lot of good reasons to not consider it a person, and we can't pick and choose when it's a person and when it's not.

[knitter4democracy]

86. What's confusing?

She wanted the baby, the baby died due to the actions of the police, then it's a wrongful death.

If she hadn't wanted the baby, there's still the problem of what could've happened to her. The pain for a miscarriage and risk of infection and other problems are all there--and the cops did nothing to help. They could've hurt her in the process.

Are you unclear on what it means to be pro-choice?

[lumberjack_jeff]

91. Are you unclear on what "kill" means?

Either the fetus was "killed" by interfering with the medical care that might have prevented mom's miscarriage, or it was not yet a person. Being pro-choice fundamentally asserts that a fetus is not yet a person.

If, as this lawsuit asserts, the fetus was a person who was killed by negligence of the cops, then why is a pregnant woman exempt from this type of crime?

The answer is; she wouldn't be. A woman who drinks, drugs or snowboards, is equally vulnerable to a lawsuit on this precedent.

These examples only differ from abortion due to absence of premeditation and intent.

[Tsiyu]

106. The Mother was a "Person"

What part about "A Woman is a Person" is hard to understand?

SHE was put at risk.

HER choices about the pregnancy were not heeded. Does one lose all of one's dignity, one's rights to proper medical care, one's right to not be ignored to death just because one has outstanding warrants? In a town full of cops THIS cold, how many of those warrants are bogus harrassment?

Any woman knows that ignoring a miscarriage is idiotic and can result in death. You can debate the "personhood" of the unborn, but this only distracts from your larger problem: the inability to view an adult female human as a "person."

[lumberjack_jeff]

109. The issue is a wrongful death lawsuit. Mom ain't dead. n/t

[knitter4democracy]

114. By your argument, part of her is.

I can't figure out why you keep calling a baby that was born and breathed but died due to the police officers' actions a non-viable fetus and maintain there's no wrongful death.

[lumberjack_jeff]

118. Because a fetus that cannot live outside mom's womb is non-viable. n/t

[knitter4democracy]

108. A baby that is born and breathes is a person.

It wasn't a fetus that never lived outside of its mother--she had the baby, the baby drew breath and lived outside of its mother, but it died due to being born too early--which happened because of the officers' actions.

What's your definition of fetus, then? I had always thought that a fetus was a baby early in development up until birth. Once the baby is born and breathes, then it's a neonate or baby, not a fetus.

"Being pro-choice fundamentally asserts that a fetus is not yet a person." That's not what I believe, and I'm pro-choice. Pro-choice asserts that a mother has control over her own body and her own choices. Almost all pro-choice people I know draw the line at abortions on demand at quickening, when the baby starts moving enough for the mother to feel it (which usually occurs at the end of the first trimester at the earliest, usually more into the second trimester). After that, most people think that there should be a medical reason for either the baby or the mother, especially considering that we can keep babies alive earlier and earlier these days.

I have read of some people saying that a fetus isn't a person, but that logic breaks down, I think. The DNA says it's a person. The issue isn't of personhood, I think, but of viability and choice. Sucks, but that's life.

[lumberjack_jeff]

110. Ethically, the issue is clear.

If the fetus is a person - a citizen, it's right to "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" is non negotiable. His or her life is not subject to anyone else's choice.

If the fetus was viable - it obviously was not - then Roe v. Wade contemplates some ambiguity. Prior to that point the law is clear, the pre-viable fetus is an extension of the woman's body to do with as she sees fit.

No one was killed therefore no wrongful death.

[knitter4democracy]

112. But it would've been viable if she'd gotten medical care.

There's the rub. She knew she was bleeding and in trouble, she asked for help repeatedly, and the doctors admit that, if she'd gotten care when she asked for it, the baby would've been viable.

If the fetus was an extension of her body, as you put it, and she wanted to keep it, as was obvious from the tape, then there was a wrongful death. "To do with as she sees fit" means that, since she obviously wanted the baby, there's a real legal problem here. Part of her body died due to the actions of the officers, by your argument. The fact that this was a baby that would've had a chance at life makes this worse than if they'd cut off one of her limbs or hit her kidneys hard enough for one to fail or something else.

The other very real problem is that their actions could've killed her as well. Miscarriages can kill if a woman doesn't get care at the right time, from hemorraging, infection, or other problems. Those officers not only put her life at risk but they actually killed her baby--the baby she wanted and was trying to save--by their neglect.

[lumberjack_jeff]

115. Sooo....

"If the fetus was an extension of her body, as you put it, and she wanted to keep it, as was obvious from the tape, then there was a wrongful death. "To do with as she sees fit" means that, since she obviously wanted the baby, there's a real legal problem here. Part of her body died due to the actions of the officers, by your argument. The fact that this was a baby that would've had a chance at life makes this worse than if they'd cut off one of her limbs or hit her kidneys hard enough for one to fail or something else."

If she'd lost a kidney as a result of being delayed on her trip to the hospital, she could sue the cops for "wrongful death"?

My argument holds that death is an inappropriate legal concept for this discussion. Nobody died.

A fetus' child/baby/person status isn't determined by whether mom wants it or not.

Here's the bottom line. If what the cops did is homicide through negligence, then abortion is murder.

Under current law, both are untrue.

[knitter4democracy]

133. Check the law again, though.

In most states, the beginning of life is defined by when a baby takes its first breath. The baby breathed. Baby's alive, and it's a wrongful death.

In Ohio, where we lived for four years, that's the law. My students found it while working on a Frankenstein project. A year after that, there was a girl who'd had a baby and then killed it while in her parents' house. They tried her for murder--there was air in the baby's lungs. The prosecution won on that, although the charge was dropped to wrongful death.

[Maraya1969]

98. Their actions killed the baby. If she was able to get to the hospital they

could have given her drugs to stop her from giving birth since she was only 4 months. Because they refused her medical treatment her baby was born very prematurely and that is why it died. They said that the baby lived for 1 minute.


Abortions are done during the first 3 months at the latest. (I think that is it.) After that it is considered a partial birth abortion and I think that is illegal.

[lapislzi]

121. I'm thinking the same thing

You can't have it both ways. At 4 months, a fetus is not a viable human being.

That is not to say the officers in question are not guilty of criminal negligence, but homicide should not be part of this discussion, or the investigation.

[onecent]

76. It happened in Kansas City, MO about a year ago. She's filing now. Good for her.

[DearAbby]

80. why do they hate women?

First the case of the rape victim, now this. Why do they hate women? It is all about control. We are living in scary times.

[onecent]

81. The video is available at:

http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/16584384.htm

[tabasco]

88. The police state exists to perpetuate itself.

The primary mission of police has become to perpetuate the police state, not protect the public.

[Dastard Stepchild]

89. How sad for this woman!

I hope she finds peace and healing after this event.

[AX10]

92. "To protect and serve" used to mean something.

At least it did before the 1980's whent he so-called "war on drugs" was escalated by Raygunfuhrer.

[proud2BlibKansan]

93. That happened here in KC

Eventually, the officers call in Salva’s information to a dispatcher and learn she has outstanding city warrants for mistreatment of children, trespassing and several traffic violations, including driving while suspended. The bonds added up to $4,600.

http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/16584384.htm

Not that the above justifies what the cops did, but it does explain a few things.

[B Calm]

105. She was no freakin' angel by any means...

[proud2BlibKansan]

107. No she wasn't

but they should have taken her to a hospital.

[xultar]

125. So the police shouldn't have taken her to the hospital. OK. I bet if she were WHITE

and no angel they would have taken her.

I suppose you're white so you wouldn't understand.

[Deja Q]

113. .

.

[bdamomma]

116. people are really cracking up those police should be expelled

[Katherine Brengle]

119. Christ, that's terrible.

I just lost a baby last weekend, I can't imagine how horrible that must have been for her.

[JuniperLea]

126. That must be the hardest thing for a woman to endure

:hug:

My mind won't even let me go there...

[Longhorn]

127. I'm so sorry.

:hug:

[Katherine Brengle]

128. Thanks :)

I wasn't anywhere near as far along as this woman was, and I got medical care right away, and it was still the most difficult experience of my life. I honestly can't imagine the hell she went through, and is still going through, especially knowing there was a chance prompt medical care could have saved her baby...

[Longhorn]

132. I've been there.

I lost one at 3.5 months. It's been 27 years but I remember the pain which, like yours, was not compounded by the ignorance and insensitivity of others (except for the lame comments that well-meaning people sometimes say.)

Take care of yourself! :pals:

[Catherine Vincent]

123. This story really saddens me.

It also makes me so darn mad. The female cop is what really surprises me. When she said "how is that my problem", I wanted to throw something at my tv. I know the woman had a record and all but those cops should have made sure she had medical treatment before arresting her. I am glad the woman and her family are suing and I hope they win. It's the principle of it all. :(

[hedgehog]

130. What about keeping her at the jail overnight with no medical attention?

The entire system is at fault, not just two cops.