An Upset Teacher's Letter to Oprah - "Ask Teachers"...

[YvonneCa]

http://neatoday.org/2010/09/24/a-teachers-letter-to-oprah/


Excerpt:

I wish someone who knew even a little bit about real classrooms, the heart-breaking challenges teachers face daily (teachers spend an average of $400 annually, out of their own meager salaries, to equip their rooms), had a national forum. I wish one of your guests was a real teacher. John Legend? Really? Come on, Oprah, I don’t try to tell John Legend how to make music; he’s going to tell me about teaching? Or perhaps you’re stereotyping? Instead of John Legend, why don’t you have Pedro Noguera, who wrote a stunning book discussing the problems black males face in the system (The Trouble with Black Boys)? Or Mike Rose, who’s worked for decades with working class, side-lined students and schools of America? Or Diane Ravitch, who recanted her support of NCLB because it not only doesn’t work, it harms students?? And Race to the Top is simply an Obama-ised NCLB, I’m sorry to say.

[proud2BlibKansan]

1. wow

Dear Oprah,

I teach. Given, I teach at university level, but I’ve been teaching for several years — about 20, to be exact. And I’ve seen the changes that No Child Left Behind — and your beloved testing — have made in my students. None of the changes are good: students want to be spoon-fed (they are in testing environments); students want to do only what will get them high grades. The list is long and sad.

I also direct a non-profit federally funded professional development grant for teachers, pre-k to university, the Oklahoma State University Writing Project. It’s the local site of the National Writing Project, an amazing partnership among research universities, classroom teachers, and schools. Not to mention the inclusion of parents and students. All of these voices are absent in the current national conversation.

Oprah, let me tell you about Oklahoma teachers and their classrooms. Many of my friends and colleagues at the high school level have more than 170-200 students in their classrooms. Do you think a student is worth 10 minutes a week from his/ her teacher? Outside of the classroom? Do you think a “good” teacher should spend that much time on weekly grading — 10 minutes a student? Please do the math: that would mean another 83+ hours weekly, Oprah — outside of classroom. IF each student receives 10 minutes of attention on his or her work outside the classroom.

“Don’t they have plan periods?” I hear people ask. No, many don’t. “Plan periods” went the way of smaller classrooms — there are too many school duties: hall monitors, cafeteria duty, mandated professional development that has nothing to do with the school’s demographics. And even if they did, that’s less than five hours weekly…

And yes, good teachers work a lot of outside hours. Unfortunately, in Oklahoma (where our average teacher salary ranks 47th in the country), many teachers need to take part-time jobs. Does this impact their teaching? Certainly. It also impacts the ability for a single mother of two or three children to put food on the table and pay the rent. Do you want teachers to spend more time on students? Lower classroom size — hire more teachers. And pay them competitive salaries — competitive with other career paths requiring a minimum of a bachelor?s degree. Even nurses (another under-rated career) make more than teachers do.

You don’t want teachers to have tenure? Then figure out a way that a principal in a small town (like, say, Skiatook, Okla.) will be unable to fire teachers s/he doesn’t like. Not because the teacher is ‘bad,’ but because the teacher attends the wrong church. Or maybe doesn’t attend church at all. Small towns — and big ones, as well — have politics, Oprah. And surprise: they affect every decision in a school, even to the detriment of teachers.

Tenure doesn’t keep bad teachers in the system — there are ways, as others have noted, to fire teachers. Your guest, Michele Rhee, notes that she fired hundreds. Many had tenure. And many probably weren’t bad teachers, unfortunately. Ms. Rhee, who once thought it was okay to tape students’ mouths shut?? She’s now in charge of evaluating schools? Let me tell you, Oprah, I teach pre-service teachers, in addition to my job directing a NWP site. Not ONE of my students would think that’s okay.

You can’t fire a doctor without just cause, Oprah — there’s a system. Is that ‘tenure’? Or trying to be sure that in this ostensible democracy, we have the right to confront our ‘accuser,’ and hear what is being said about us. Each year in Tulsa, Okla., new teachers don’t make the grade. Even in the third year of teaching, we let teachers who don’t work out go. Unfortunately, we lose an enormous number of teachers — good ones — who can’t deal with the incredibly complicated paperwork, the overtime demands, the lack of time to do what they went to school for: teach.

I wish someone who knew even a little bit about real classrooms, the heart-breaking challenges teachers face daily (teachers spend an average of $400 annually, out of their own meager salaries, to equip their rooms), had a national forum. I wish one of your guests was a real teacher. John Legend? Really? Come on, Oprah, I don’t try to tell John Legend how to make music; he’s going to tell me about teaching? Or perhaps you’re stereotyping? Instead of John Legend, why don’t you have Pedro Noguera, who wrote a stunning book discussing the problems black males face in the system (The Trouble with Black Boys)? Or Mike Rose, who’s worked for decades with working class, side-lined students and schools of America? Or Diane Ravitch, who recanted her support of NCLB because it not only doesn’t work, it harms students?? And Race to the Top is simply an Obama-ised NCLB, I’m sorry to say.

Why don’t you, with your great forum for change, invite real classroom teachers to talk about what it’s like to teach homeless students with no resources (students or teachers)? Why don’t you ask my son, who recently graduated with a Master’s of Arts in teaching, what it’s like to teach students living in foster homes for drug abuse, rape — both victims and perpetrators — violence, assault? Why don’t you ask him how he struggles to be a “good” teacher? And wonders — daily — what that even means in the context where he finds himself?

If you want to change education, Oprah, don’t make the mistake everyone else has. Ask teachers. Would you have a conversation about the national state of medicine and health care without asking for the input of doctors, nurses and patients? And yet we have left parents, teachers and students completely out of this critical talk.

If you want real change, invite real teachers to your show, Oprah. The irony is that the conversation seems to valourise teachers, saying that “good” teachers can change things for kids. So can smaller classrooms, food, adequate resources, the freedom to teach according to a child’s needs. But then, that’s not what the “experts” are saying, is it? Unfortunately, the “experts” have no real experience with students. Or teaching. Or classrooms. They only know how to tell the teachers in the trenches what to do?

Wondering how in the world education came to this pass,

Britton Gildersleeve

[YvonneCa]

2. Double...

...WOW! Thanks for getting this noticed. :hi:

[Nikki Stone1]

4. +1000

.

[Nikki Stone1]

5. +1000

.

[glinda]

21. Yup. Tenure protects education when followed. Hate the attack of Tenure.

[hfojvt]

22. is $31,000 really a 'meager' salary?

http://www.teacher-world.com/teacher-salary/oklahoma.html

Apparently it is less than most teachers make in Kansas, and I am sure you can always find people who make more money in some other jobs. Oklahoma ranks 47th in teacher salaries? Well it also ranks 45th in median household income http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_income which was $42,822 in 2008. A minimum wage worker makes $15,080 a year. So a starting teacher married to a minimum wage worker would be making 107% of median income. Two starting teachers would be making 145% of median income. Two teachers in their sixth year (where they'd be making an evil $66,600 annually) would be making 156% of median income.

I know the tale of the underpaid teacher is conventional wisdom, but I do not buy it. People who make 155% of median income should not whine to the 50% who are below median income about how meager their salaries are.

[9119495]

24. To be fair, there is a rather large entry fee to get into teaching...

College tuition is out of control with even state schools billing $20,000+ per year of schools. Teachers have to first borrow that and then pay it off the rest of their careers. I'll be paying $300 per month for the next 22 years.

[hfojvt]

68. that's not really fair though

because other people are paying for college too. My own master's degree apparently only qualifies me to work as a janitor as I have done for the last 8 years. Before that I worked as a factory temp for three years and before that as a part-time bar janitor for two years. If I had stayed in the math education department instead of just getting a degree in math, at least I would be able to apply to school districts for better paying jobs.

[MikeMc]

84. You deserve more, others don't deserve less.

When Reagan was dismantling aid for higher education, he appealed to the worst sentiments in Americans. He asked cab drivers 'why should your tax dollars go to Pell and SEOG grants for college students?', and mobilized blue collar people to support his higher education budget cuts that way. By putting it that way, Reagan managed to avoid telling the cab drivers the truth, that he was making sure their kids would never be able to afford college.

Repugs always manage to tap into jealousy, constantly tell people who aren't getting what they deserve, that the enemy is the other working stiff that is getting just a little more. The end result of this strategy is that everyone in this country, who isn't a non-working rich repug pig, will be working for below minimum wage. If you're working for $12 an hour, how can you justify your salary when others are working for minimum wage? How can minimum wage earners justify their salary when there are people that are working for split-scale or working for less than minimum wage?

[Lucky Luciano]

98. I have a degree in math that has worked out well for me.

I did an advanced degree in pure math which is utterly useless (algebraic geometry)...had to learn more differential equantions, stochastic calculus, time series analysis and C++ on my own after graduating to get my foot in the door, but it worked out really well. You no doubt have the aptitude to do a bunch of useful things. I am not sure how easy it will be to learn those kinds of things and then apply for a job using such skills 8-10 years after your degree, but I imagine it cannot hurt and you probably like thinking about such things anyway. Worth a shot - even in this economy.

[Goblinmonger]

126. Sorry to hear that.

Should have stayed in education, then.

That is generally my response to those that bitch about how easy my job is. Why aren't you in it?

[DailyGrind51]

80. I went back to grad school to get certified to teach in my state and wound up paying over $20K in

tuition alone. The textbooks, three different state exams, and lost income during student teaching, probably added another $2,000 to the total. The kicker is that no district seems to want an old guy with two masters degrees for an entry level teaching position! Summer school, no problem, but full-time during the school year, I'm not young and "perky", I guess?

[MedicalAdmin]

96. My wife is a doctor and I hate that "she makes so much" argument.

First of all she pays more than $1500 per month in student loans and will until she retires at age 65, assuming she is able to afford to. She also didn't start saving any money until she was almost 33 because she was in school. Also she is primary and family care which is the very bottom of the doctor salary range and make only about $24000 a year in take home after she pays all her expenses like overhead and employees (yes, and student loans.

Take out of the $24000 taxes (paid on total income, not the 24,000), living expenses and a car and you have - zero.

So if you don't make much, don't assume that professionals make a ton. Many of them don't if you factor in their expenses such as education etc.


I'll get off my rant now.

[murdoch]

39. Is $31k a meager salary for people with college degrees

I do not have even a Bachelors degree, and I made three times this $31k thing in my last job. I've been going for my Bachelors for a while, and when I get it I should be making even more money.

A degree in Education costs no less than my Computer Science degree, takes no less time in class and studying, yet pays a lot less. If you look at the list of what careers pay the most once you have a Bachelors, a CS degree is always toward the top, an Educational degree always toward the bottom.

Now if you did not need a Bachelors degree to be a teacher, what you're saying might make sense. But you do need one (at least around here). Some teachers I know tell me to get into certain positions and on certain salary ranges, they actually need a Masters degree.

[TalkingDog]

42. Yep. Even teaching at a college level

depending on your discipline.

I was applying for a community college instructors position. I would have run the department. Salary range: mid-30's to low 40's So the people that teach the people who will go out and make 40K at their first job, have to work for years to get to that point.

[hfojvt]

69. see above

some people making well below median income and also doing work with much less status, also have college degrees. Where I work, three of the four janitors on staff have college degrees.

[liberation]

75. I believe the previous poster shaw your post above...

... he or she was replying to it after all.

So basically your argument is that since there are poorer people than them teachers, they should just STFU and take the abuse.

Although I love the mythical unicorn-like places some people seem to be living and working in: school districts which pay their teachers $90K+ a year, teachers who are all too happy about paying off their own pocket for their own supplies, and now you working in that great whatever it is you work in where even the janitorial staff has college degrees. Let me guess, the receptionist has a PhD even.


Right....

[eilen]

117. In NY teachers are required to get their Master's

They can pass a test and get a conditional license/certification to teach with a Bachelor's but within a certain amount of time are expected to be Master's prepared in addition to annual Continuing Ed hours.

In order to be eligible for their certification they must actually have a degree in education.

I know in other states you can have a degree in almost anything and get hired to sub or teach. Not in NY (or California if I remember correctly).

My son has had wonderful skilled knowledgeable teachers that work very hard.

[Alcibiades]

62. It absolutely is a meager salary

What's often not discussed, though, are the other benefits: most school districts offer better health, retirement and vacation packages than private-sector employers.

That being said, when you look at what teachers are being asked to do, it's not enough.

Administrative assistant: $33,600
Office Manager: $39,312
Executive assistant: $45,910
Staff Accountant: $49,931
Construction project manager: $72,102
Lawyer: $78,588
An E-6 with 6 years of service: $33,612

Teachers not only have to have a college degree, but most also have to have a teacher certification, which means even more schooling, above and beyond college. Additionally, many districts require an MA or MS for further salary increases and promotions.

But the main thing is the students. You don't really have control over what sort of students you get. You might be at a school with well-behaved children who have supportive parents who back you up, make sure the kids do the assigned homework, and who see that getting a good education is their kids' ticket to a middle-class lifestyle. Or you might be in a school where the father and maybe even the mother is absent, where the kids watch 8+ hours of television daily, where there are no books in the home, where they have never been subject to discipline that is firm, fair and consistent, and where no one thinks that doing well in school is a ticket to any kind of future so they will drop out as soon as they are able, no matter what you do. And when these kids fail, we blame the teachers, but in many cases, it's really the family and, above all, the lack of social justice in our society.

[Slit Skirt]

92. Here is another scenario

My kids, both gifted and extremely talented. In Arizona they were pulled out of their normal classes about once a week to explore other things beyond their normal studies. When we moved to Colorado, the gifted program was (no kidding) more homework. Needless to say, over the years in the Colorado school system, my very intelligent gifted children barely passed high school..It is so tragic what has happened to public education

[Alcibiades]

112. But having so many different school systems is like a laboratory!

So the logic goes. Having all these different systems gives us a chance to see what works. Of course, if schools are laboratories, doesn't that make our kids lab rats?

There's tremendous programmatic variation between states, between counties, between individual schools in the same district. Meanwhile, many, many nations that offer a standard, one-size-fits-all curriculum have better outcomes. Go figure. A 100,000 laboratories, a 100,000 different ways to fail.

[JDPriestly]

64. Teachers' salaries should be assessed in comparison to the

investment that teachers have to make in order to become members of their profession;.

Other professional workers -- doctors, dentists, lawyers, make more than teachers. You cannot compare a teacher who, if he or she does not already have an MA, is in the process of getting at least that degree and possibly a PhD, a teacher who is constantly taking continuing education courses -- to the 9-5 employees of say a bank or a grocery store chain or a bus company or a shoe store or some other such job.

I know people think teachers get great vacations, but they, like other professionals, are working at least some hours on weekends and evenings for the most part -- grading papers, preparing lessons and classroom materials, educating themselves further. Teachers are very underpaid. Their work is certainly more valuable to society and more difficult than the gambling that the big-time investment brokers and hedge fund managers do on Wall Street -- and look at their salaries and bonuses.

[starzdust]

70. Walk in my shoes

I have been teaching for over 30 years. So unless you are a teacher you have no idea what it is like. But to your point, consider taxes, deductions (for medical care, retirement, housing, etc, etc, etc,)of pay and your take home pay is 50% or less (in my case, being single with no children or a mortgage). Now add in medical expenses beyond what my insurance will cover and I am financially ruined.

So, next time, please consider all that goes into becoming an educator. I would not recommend teaching as a career path for anyone who would depend on that salary alone to survive.
John

[rgetzel86]

72. God Forbid Someone Should Make a Living!

Believe it or not, it is not a sin to live comfortably. As a matter of fact, it should be a right for everyone. Can I get a K & R for freedom from want?

Why don't you spend less time begrudging the salaries of teachers (which is indeed meager - if you care about education, you care about teachers' salaries, because you want to induce a high quality of teacher into the classroom) and more time fighting for a higher standard of living for all Americans?

And yes, I am a teacher, and I live paycheck to paycheck, as do most professionals in the current economy.

The same goes for all tirades against union workers. God forbid someone should earn a living in this country!

[Techn0Girl]

95. Thanks for being so Progressive!

and supporting our working brothers and sisters out there.
Not.

Instead of the cherrypicked figures you gave , let's talk some REAL facts :
http://teacherportal.com/teacher-salaries-by-state

Now look at the STARTING Salaries instead of the bogus average salary figures that you gave.
IN Kansas, your preferred state - teachers START at 27K.

Yeah, after taxes - they are taking home about 350 a week.

Great salary there Scooter.

Once again - thanks for supporting the working person :sarcasm:

[blackspade]

122. You have got to be kidding.

Teachers are not restaurant workers, or managers at the Jiffymart. They are teachers.
Teachers have one of the most vital functions in our society, to educate the new generations of Americans.
These are people that should be making more than engineers, computer science types, and any corner office executive.
You want to know why? Because they are the ones that gave these careers types the educational opportunities that allow them to enjoy their good paying jobs.
Frankly, teachers in OK should be making $66,000 a year individually.
Your statement that they should take their crappy salary and shut the fuck up is insulting.

[DailyGrind51]

123. Chicago teachers make considerably more and work fewer hours/day, days/year.

CPS has the shortest school day and year of any major city district in the country and shorter than any suburban district in Illinois.

"Chicago Public Schools recognizes the value of our teachers to our children and our system. Therefore, we offer a competitive salary as compared to other Illinois districts. The following are the starting Teacher Salaries effective July 1, 2009 through June 30, 2010:

Starting Salary (Bachelor's Degree) Starting Salary (Master's Degree)
School Year -- 40 Weeks/193 days School Year -- 40 Weeks/193 days
$48,631 $52,000


CPS Starting Salary Ranges* (School Year -- 40 Weeks/193 days):

$48,631 - $53,894 (B.A.) (Lane 1, Step 1 – Lane 1, Step 3)
$52,000 - $57,262 (M.A.) (Lane 2, Step 1 – Lane 2, Step 3)
$53,684 - $58,946 (M.A. +15) (Lane 3, Step 1 – Lane 3, Step 3)
$55,368 - $60,631 (M.A. +30) (Lane 4, Step 1 – Lane 4, Step 3)
$57,052 - $62,315 (M.A. +45) (Lane 5, Step 1 – Lane 5, Step 3)
$58,737 - $64,000 (Ph.D./Ed.D.) (Lane 6, Step 1 – Lane 6, Step 3)

http://www.cps-humanresources.org/careers/salary.htm

CPS Elementary school day: 9:00AM - 2:30 PM

[Techn0Girl]

129. Again - Bogus figures that do NOT tell the whole story....

#1. You put out figures and you imply that teachers only work until 2:30. You completely neglect the class prep time (grading, classrom set up, etc) before and after hours - teachers work an 8 hour day just like you and I. Even in Chicago

#2 You claim that teachers in Chicago start at 48K completely neglecting that they only get paid for 9 months work. Actual take home pay is 75% of 48K or 36K. That;s right 36K - try to live in Chicago on that.

Why IS it lately that I feel like I am arguing with teabaggers right here on DU :( ?

[GrannyK]

56. WOW - is right

[bread_and_roses]

87. another +++++ and a K&R for the thread (n/t)

[GreenPartyVoter]

3. Wish I could rec again!

[Bozita]

6. Just did it for you

[GreenPartyVoter]

7. Thx! We'll count that one for my Mom. Hope another one comes in for my Dad. :^)

[flyarm]

9. this one is for your DAD! he is lucky to have such a wonderful daughter!

#31..for your dad!

and Proud to rec for him! and you!

[GreenPartyVoter]

15. Thank you! *hugs*

[66 dmhlt]

71. Folks can also volunteer or donate to help a school

Time magazine's September 20th cover story dealt with education. They included a list of "How to Help" volunteer options for everyone from recent high school graduates right through senior citizens:

http://www.time.com/time/specials/packages/completelist/0,29569,2019663,00.html

They also provided a list of ways to donate to a school:

http://www.donorschoose.org/
... Allows you to fund requests from public-school teachers for everything from pencils to books; materials arrive with a disposable camera and kit for students to write notes to the donor

http://www.adoptaclassroom.org/
... Lets you select a classroom to contribute to and allows the teacher to choose what to buy from a list of affiliate vendors. Donors are sent a dollar-for-dollar report showing where the money went

http://www.firstbook.org/site/c.lwKYJ8NVJvF/b.674095/k.CCA8/First_Book_Homepage.htm
... Provides a child with a book for every $2 donated.

http://www.digitalwish.com/dw/digitalwish/home
... Is a registry for teachers to request tech products (cameras, computers, projectors) for their classrooms. Donors contribute funds to fulfill requests, with additional support from partnered technology companies.

Read more: http://www.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,2019663_2017587_2017586,00.html#ixzz10lSN0OEZ

PLEASE NOTE: I have not had this proofread by nunyabidness yet, so I apologize in advance for any spelling or grammar errors.

[Iwillnevergiveup]

8. Right on - ask the teachers!

Dear Oprah:

There is no doubt in my ind that powerful interests in this country want to see all of our public schools fail. Teachers are an easy and convenient scapegoat, and I am disappointed with your highly publicized stance on this issue.

I am not going to watch "Waiting for Superman" because I knew and worked with so many super men and women in my 20 years of teaching in Chicago and Los Angeles. I'd like to introduce a few to you:

Kathy K. - a special ed teacher I carpooled with to State and 41st Street in Chicago. She and her husband decided against having children of their own because she took her kids clothes shopping if they made it through 8th grade without becoming pregnant or imprenating.

Mamie D. - our union rep at the same location who coached and counseled new teachers like me in our classroms during her free periods. She also provided many supplies she had accumulated.

Susan D. - a Long Beach, CA ESL teacher who fundraised and contributed to a Saturday trip to Disneyland for her 150 students using parents as chaperones.

Marvin N. - a Long Beach music teacher who spent LOTS of his own money to get an orchestra and jazz band up and running at our middle school.

Scott M. - a Long Beach science teacher fundraised and contributed toward planting 2 dozen trees on our campus.

Cathy M. - a Pasadena, CA librarian who provided backpacks, pens, pencils and notebooks to students who were without entirely out of her own pocket.

These are just a few of the incredibly warm and generous people I had the pleasure to work with. They truly got it - too many of our kids are strictly in survival mode and do not always arrive at school with the tools they need and ready to learn. Society's ills are mirrored in our public school classrooms, and our teachers courageously champion on. We need more nurses, counselors, psychologists, librarians and aides to assist them. We need less teaching to the test and phony proficiency levels. Education should not be a business with for-profit charter schools. Nor should it be a luck of the draw with lotteries.

I hope and trust you hear from more teachers who will tell it like it is.

[nosmokes]

10. keepin it kicked

[YvonneCa]

48. Thank you! n/t

[Michigan-Arizona]

11. K&R n/t

[jtuck004]

12. K&R n/t

[Hannah Bell]

13. great letter.

[pecwae]

14. K&R,

[LWolf]

16. That's a great letter. What are the chances that Oprah will read it? nt

[YvonneCa]

44. Depends on if it gets...

...noticed. ;)

[Javaman]

17. Has there been any responce from Oprah? nt

[Enthusiast]

18. K&R

Thank you!

[Starry Messenger]

19. k & r

[laughingliberal]

20. Big K & R! nt

[LibraLiz1973]

23. As a teacher, I am appalled by the "meager" salary comment

My district starting salary is forty-five thousand dollars a year, and my benefits are 100% paid for. Once you get your masters or doctorate (and have tenure) you can earn up to ninety-eight thousand dollars a year. Naturally not all districts are as fortunate. I am basically in the middle- other districts around me start at fifty-two thousand and can go over one hundred thousand dollars. Districts closer to the city start at about twenty-nine thousand and go up to sixty-five thousand per year. Being a teacher no longer means earning next to nothing. Salaries have been raised over the years. I hate the "meager" argument, because it is not true.

I spend roughly five to six hundred dollars a year on classroom supplies & achievement prizes. I do not begrudge the expenditure. Mechanics buy tools, businessmen buy lunches and rounds of golf, accountants buy computer programs, nurses buy uniforms, cops buy guns. I can not think of a job where you do not buy supplies at some point. I accept it and don't even really think about it. It is tax deductible and doesn't rise to something that will annoy me.

Just my opinion.

[PVnRT]

26. In all of those jobs you mention, the employer reimburses the employee

Not so for teachers.

[Lucky Luciano]

103. no kidding. I get reimbursed every fucking penny I spend

out of pocket. I even wanted to take out some IT guys who have helped get my projects into production. I asked the company to give me a $200 to go out and buy drinks for 4-5 of the guys who helped me out as the IT guys are very underappreciated. If the company did not reimburse me, no way I would have done that.

[Doremus]

32. You need to read the letter.

"in Oklahoma (where our average teacher salary ranks 47th in the country"

Salary is nowhere near your district's.

But thanks for playing.

[liberation]

40. Where is your district exactly?

That is the most basic info that you provide in order to give your post the most basic level of context/legitimacy.

There are big salary discrepancies among district, never mind private vs. public schools.


To be honest, I know plenty of college professors and highschool teachers. I have never ever heard a single one of them saying or considering their salaries as being even remotely adequate as compensation for the amount of responsibilities and work they have to perform.

[Diane R]

49. Teachers (not administrators), top out near 90K in this district, too. For 9 months.

[Fearless]

60. What district?

[Nevernose]

65. Most teachers i know work ~2000 hours/ year.

That's the same as someone who works 40 hours a week, 50 weeks a year. We just pack it into fewer months. 90k is still pretty good for that, but it's hardly the average -- especially since in some districts (mine) the 7 year teacher drop out rate is 80%. Most people can't handle the stress in an urban district long enough to get 90k/year.

[madrone16]

94. "meager" salary? Mmmhmm.

Where do you teach? Is your district hiring? My district pays me, with a master's degree in my field and four years of experience, 33,400. I have a part-time position with a college to supplement my income - so I have additional students on top of the high school students I teach at my day job. I am required, no opt-out, to pay almost $500 per month into a retirement fund that will penalize me at retirement if I receive SS benefits - which I paid into for 15 years before I started teaching. I will be leaving this state as soon as I can eek out another job in a neighboring state. And as soon as I can save the money to move. It is not pretty.

My first couple of years I spent on classroom supplies. Not anymore.

No one goes into teaching for the money. I certainly didn't. And I enjoy my job. But it is killing me financially.

[knitter4democracy]

105. Not all of us teach in such a district.

My starting salary in 1997 was $18,600.

[AwakeAtLast]

110. I've been teaching 12 years and I just made it over $42,000

It's not worth it to get a Masters, that would only bump me up $500! A year!

I consider that "meager".

[nunyabidness]

25. Please, grammar teachers, grade proud2BlibKansan`s reply,

tell me why a "teacher" can use such poor sentence structure, punctuation,and composition?

[fascisthunter]

27. because it's a message board, that's why genius

was your point to disagree with what the poster said or are you going to use nitpicking to try to distract from the point of this thread and to cast doubt on the person itself?

Pretty lame...

PS - why do ignorant people think they are clever?

[Missy Vixen]

28. I'm an author

My grammar isn't perfect. It may never be.

So, how do you feel about the ideas proud2belibKansan is putting forth in his or her post?

[GreenEyedLefty]

29. I agree, although I am an English Lit. major, not a teacher.

However, I'm guessing she dashed off the letter quickly without much revision - white hot anger will do that to a person.

[gratuitous]

31. You're welcome to do it yourself

Anyway, in your post, I believe the word "how" works far better than "why." In addition the second part of your sentence should be re-cast to eliminate the word "can." and there should be a space after the comma following the word "punctuation."

As John Hodgman would say, "You're welcome."

[nunyabidness]

55. No, I meant "why",

and yes you are right,there should be a space after the comma following the word "punctuation." I apologize. But there should be no reason that a reply defending teachers should be composed poorly. Practice what you preach and all that. No need to set the bar low. Language is communication. And are you really angry that "Oprah" called out poor teachers? Does she have some influence on anyone other than overweight,unemployed housewives? Where I live, her show airs when I`m at work (4 o`clock).

[gratuitous]

58. I'm afraid I don't understand your response

Who or what is this "Oprah" to which you allude? Is English your first language, or are you attempting to post through some kind of translation program? Because your own communication skills seem deficient someone on such a crusade for them for others. It's reminiscent of the sort of rhetorical tactics I see all the time on a certain network. I can't remember which one, though. Hmmm. It'll come to me.

[liberation]

73. Wooooooossh.

In your rush to construct a low hanging ad hominem, you seemed to not get the fact that this letter was not composed by the OP but a 3rd party. That seems to me a clear display of very very substandard reading and comprehension skills. Furthermore, you neglected to actually point out the errors in that teacher's letter, in fact you requested other people do it for you.

Maybe you should concentrate on dealing with your own issues regarding hypocrisy before criticizing other people's grammar.

[nunyabidness]

132. Wow. Just amazing.

I asked for teachers to point out the errors to see if they actually would do it, not whine and complain and pass the buck and blame somebody else. I understand that the letter was penned by someone else but being on Oprahs show about teachers I identified the letter with Oprah. I assumed that this fact was obvious. I also failed to mention that the show was on television. And that one could view this "television" device with your eyes. And all the dictionary searching and thesaurus usage is not going to hide the fact that all you really mean to do is spit venom at anyone that may have a view different than yours. If you were to correct the grammar in the letter (written by Britton Gildersleeve...not Oprah)) you would have to at least acknowledge an issue that lets an educator write in a way unsuitable for an educator, no matter what the circumstance. But instead you took the low road and bitched about my post. It`s hard to look at oneself for mistakes. By the way, who`s responsible for my "substandard reading and comprehension skills" if not a teacher? I`ve gone K through 12 and six years of college, all with the help of teachers. Musta been some bad teachers,huh?

[WinkyDink]

33. You wrote a run-on sentence.

[Doremus]

34. Alerted. Buh-bye Brainiac. nt

[SammyWinstonJack]

36. nunyabidness

:silly:

[liberation]

37. Speaking of bad grammar...

... talk about people living in glass houses throwing rocks around, you know how that one goes. LOL.

[Dappleganger]

41. Is that the best you can do?

Challenge her to a grammar-off?

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[YvonneCa]

45. P2b is not the author...

...of the letter to Oprah.

[kath]

52. HELLO - that letter was NOT written by proud2lib -- s/he posted the full text of the letter by an

OKLAHOMA educator, Britton Gildersleeve, written to Oprah, so that we could read the whole thing.

[YvonneCa]

53. Yes. Thank you. n/t

[proud2BlibKansan]

97. Which reply?

The one you are linking was not written by me. :wtf:

[knitter4democracy]

107. Can I start with your comma splice?

First of all, she posted the entire post. So, the post was not her writing but the original author's.

Secondly, yes, I teach grammar (went over the nine base sentence forms today and had to recap the parts of speech and the syntax vocabulary), as I'm the writing coach at our school, and yes, I saw every mistake. I tend to. I tend not to be a grammar nazi on-line, though, as I figure I'm reading rough drafts for the most part. As your own post indicates, most people don't really go through their posts to make sure they're perfect.

[AwakeAtLast]

111. A call-out on post #2

Classy.

[Uncle Joe]

30. Kicked and recommended.

Thanks for the thread, Yvonne.

[YvonneCa]

46. You are very welcome. n/t

[dhill926]

35. big time K & R......................

[AllyCat]

38. It's amazing how the media has just hauled right into the "teachers are bad" meme

Even Oprah? WTF? Good for this teacher to get this message out.

[YvonneCa]

47. We all have to help. n/t

[AllyCat]

127. even my own mother (dem to the end) has started the "those bad teachers" bit with me

I have defended them to lots of people and will continue to do so.

[YvonneCa]

130. Me, too. n/t

[perdita9]

43. Let's have Oprah interview people with ADHD,

bi-polar disorder, dyslexia and a speech impediment all at the same time and see how she does.

[LibDemAlways]

57. Spot on. Or better yet let her substitute teach in a middle school for a week

and see what kind of shape she's in when she emerges. Talk is cheap and, in this case, she doesn't know what she's talking about.

[proud2BlibKansan]

102. And one of them needs to interrupt her every 60 seconds asking if he can go to the bathroom

while another one should be clicking a pen or tapping a pencil.

Let's see Oprah maintain her composure in that situation. :)

[Deep13]

50. +1

[Kajsa]

51. Excellent!!

This teacher speaks for thousands of colleagues
in our country.

Did Oprah bother to have any classroom teachers on this show
or did she relay on her "expert" celebrity guests?

I am both a substitute teacher and Home Teacher for our local
school district.

Unless someone has been in the trenches, in a class with 50+
students (for real!) or a Special Day class with one aide who
called in sick, I don't think they really understand
what is happening in our schools.

Oprah has been getting on my nerves,
but here she hit a new low.

K&R

[YvonneCa]

54. I agree. I like Oprah. I think she tries to promote positive...

...ideas. But the spin on this issue was swallowed 'hook, line and sinker'...by the media (including Oprah).

[Fearless]

59. Proud K&R!

[lunatica]

61. I sure hope Oprah listens and does something about it on her show

[cjbgreen]

63. And Oprah's promotion of 'Waiting for Superman"

This from the Washington Post which refutes point by point how "Waiting for Superman" and how the film is neither objective in its representation of education and how it promotes a model that is dependent on additional funding from private corporations and supports education that is not equitable or more effective. Great article that also identifies the fallacious thinking of so called "Reformists".
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/answer-sheet/guest-bloggers/what-superman-got-wrong-point.html?referrer=emaillink

[Supersedeas]

66. Celebrity opinion (whether it is pundits, politicians or entertainers) dominate news coverage of

social issues which have a real factual basis.

Instead of facts, it is much easier for television producers to disseminate opinion and then hide behind any disagreement with the excuse that the opinion does not reflect the networks position...it is just an opinion of the network guest...and everyone is entitled to an opinion.

But, the bigger question that is avoided: is there a better use of a national airway than just the dissemination of celebrity opinion?

[cjbgreen]

67. Great Point!

[Doctor_J]

74. One really sad thing about this

This "NCLB" scam was originally concocted for two reasons

1. Funnel a lot of tax dollars to Neil Bush and the rest of the Bush Crime Family, and

2. Break the NEA, one of the few remaining strong national unions

if we'd just paid Bush a few billion tax dollars as a bribe, this could have been disposed of years ago. Now the people who actually run the country (big corporations and lobbyists) have discovered the potential windfall of tax dollars, all of our "representatives" have to be in favor of it or face hell from the billionaires.

[MikeMc]

85. +1 Doc.

I'd like to add:
3) Destroy public education, because the rich swine are endangered by an educated population.

[Dinger]

118. I repeat, Why Is The NEA President MIA On The SundayTalk Shows?

It's ALWYS the AFT President. (Nothing wrong with the AFT, just wondering why the NEA is ignored).

[YvonneCa]

121. He was actually on the ED Show...

...on MSNBC today...finally.

[Dinger]

125. Damn, Sorry I Missed It

How was it?

[rgetzel86]

76. About Salaries in General

$31,000 too much for a teacher? Believe it or not, it is not a sin to live comfortably. As a matter of fact, it should be a right for everyone. Can I get a K & R for freedom from want?

Why don't you spend less time begrudging the salaries of teachers (which is indeed meager - if you care about education, you care about teachers' salaries, because you want to induce a high quality of teacher into the classroom) and more time fighting for a higher standard of living for all Americans?

And yes, I am a teacher, and I live paycheck to paycheck, as do most professionals in the current economy.

The same goes for all tirades against union workers. God forbid someone should earn a living in this country. The issue isn't that someone makes more than you, it's that everyone who isn't in the upper crust has seen their salaries erode for years now! We're all in the same boat.

[mwooldri]

109. Hear hear!

$31k is waaaayy too little for a teacher, even a rookie IMO.

Teachers and Social Workers have the toughest jobs for too little compensation IMO (and I'm 99% sure in fact too - my "therapist" technically a clinical social worker - is way smarter than me but my job in a call centre makes more money than she gets) There are a whole lot of people who get paid much more than teachers and social workers - who have had far less education (my CSW has two Masters, I have the equivalent of an Associates Degree). But the impact that teachers and anyone involved in a social career has on any one individuals' life is massive. Most people remember their first school teacher.

My idea for a fix for the education system is to get high government out of it. Give individual schools their independence to do what's right for their students, to hire the kinds of teachers they need ... give the principals of the school hold the purse strings. It maybe that it's not a teacher that is needed on staff but a social worker - get that social worker in who partners with the child's parents and identifies and actions plans that can help the whole family. School should not be government paid for daycare, and there are lots of families that view school in this fashion because the parents lack the skill, will or even physical access to their children to provide them with the support they need.

There are good schools and bad schools everywhere. It does usually end up that the children who started school in a positive school and had high levels of parental involvement usually end up at better schools going forward. Where there is little parent/teacher/student engagement, this is where matters fall flat and it's not necessarily money that needs to be thrown at the issue here, but putting the systems into place to prevent failure, even beginning in pre-K and Kindergarten classes.

If there are any grammar Nazis reading this, well this is a conversation board and yes I will have the occasional typo. There are also some rules of British grammar that are different to American grammar and being English will generally be using the English found in England.

[Rex]

77. Bullseye!

Maybe one day people that have huge wealth and power will actually give a shit about the poorer classes that have to work for a living and actually spend time & money on really and honestly fixing our public school systems. Until then, I expect nothing but shallowness and stupidity from politicians over teaching.

[TheUnspeakable]

78. kK&r k&r k&r k&r

[WillyT]

79. HUGE K & R !!!

:applause::applause::applause:

:kick:

[Fire1]

81. PREACH!!! K&R

[speppin]

82. RACE to the TOP excluded many. Only a few few schools get the $$ what

kind of logic is that? (the millions of rest of the kids are left behind)


.....And Race to the Top is simply an Obama-ised NCLB, I’m sorry to say.....

[GreenArrow]

108. Yep, you just have to love the utterly stupid names

they come up with to describe these programs. Do they even get the irony of following up NCLB with "Race to the Top"?

[speppin]

124. No, I do not think they do. But the "logic" is that only a few WILL get to the top!!

like any race, there is only one winner and second place, etc..........

[WolverineDG]

83. On today's show, she featured Tony Danza

who spent 1 year in the class room & was seen on camera being berated by an administrator for the hugh crime of (wait for it) not signing in at 7:38 (it was 7:51 when this was brought to his attention). Not only was he berated on camera, he tried to explain that no one told him he needed to sign in & the admin wasn't taking it. She then kept whining "Mr. Danza, you need to sign your name. That's not your name, put your glasses on." No mention of any "thanks for taking time to greet the students" or anything like that. Just treating a PROFESSIONAL like a god-damned felon because he signed in 20 minutes late.

Oprah simply laughed at that incident, no mention of how degrading & humiliating it was, or even shock that professionals would be treated like that.

So, if she was working the celeb angle, why wasn't Mr. Danza on her show with Rhee?

dg

[proud2BlibKansan]

99. Tony Danza was a teacher?

Learn something new every day.

That signing in thing is nuts. I once had a principal use a red pen to circle your time when you were late. Since the sign in sheet is posted in a public place, that's called public reprimand and the union won that grievance. :) Ever since then, I write in exactly the time I am supposed to be there and the exact time I am allowed to go home, regardless of what time I actually arrive or leave.

I've considered just writing 'Here" and "Gone".

And you are correct. Teachers are treated like this all the time. It's ridiculous.

[WolverineDG]

104. Apparently, he wanted to be a teacher before he got into acting

even went to school for it (not sure if he got a degree or not). But it was still something he wanted to do, so he decided to do it for at least 1 year. Then a friend found out & wanted to make a reality show out of it, so it will be on A&E, called "Teach."

Anyway, I thought it rather telling that Oprah glossed over that broomstick-up-the-ass sign-in or die scene.

dg

[G_j]

131. hope he's a better teacher than actor..

somehow I doubt it

[Mosby]

86. Comparing teachers to nurses is not a good idea

Nursing is not an "underrated career" and nurses make more than most people with bachelor degrees.

I wish I made as much as a nurse.

http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Registered_Nurse_(RN)/Hourly_Rate

[liberation]

88. Hey, I have an idea. Let's have a TV show where teachers get to opine...

... about what the qualifications for a talk show host, and what the yearly pay scale for Oprah should be.

[ibegurpard]

91. yeah, no shit

[Overseas]

89. K&R! //nt

[steve2470]

90. k and r nt

[Jefferson23]

93. Great letter! I don't watch Oprah, has she ever taken on an issue that

has been counter to Obama's?

[Canuckistanian]

100. K&R^100

This needs to be shouted from the rooftops.

But I doubt Oprah will ever hear of it. She's made up her mind.

[nadinbrzezinski]

101. And sadly like the air controllers

this union will be busted too...

That is what this is about... and of course privatization... because we all know the private sector does everything better... :sarcasm:

[AnnetteJacobs]

106. K&R

nt

[Irishonly]

113. K&R

I hope this stays kicked for a very long time.

[1776Forever]

114. After watching Extreme Makeovers Baltimore Girls Hope show I question where is Oprah in Chicago!

If you missed it check it out here:
http://blogs.babble.com/famecrawler/2010/09/26/girls-hope-a-worthy-extreme-makeover-home-edition-subject-video/

............

I have said for a long time that I thought what Oprah did for the South African girls school was wonderful but where oh where is she for Chicago children? I don't know if she had a show on about the troubles there but I hadn't heard of it! Let's make sure our Public Schools get the help they need first!

[senseandsensibility]

115. kick

Please keep kicked, everyone.

[leftstreet]

116. K&R

[johnaries]

119. All I know is - it ain't working. we've tried asking teachers, and

that didn't work either.

RTTT is supposed to generate new ideas, because the old ones aren't working. Should we blame Teachers? I don't know, all I know is that the current system is NOT working and I don't see Teachers coming up with many solutions.

Should we listen to Teachers? I say yes - once teachers come up with an original idea that we can actually try.

[nunyabidness]

133. Thank you.

[onehandle]

120. Oprah is all about Oprah. nt

[JackRiddler]

128. Too late to rec, but kick for an excellent piece.