Anyone else watching Matt Lauer interview the President re: education on MSNBC now?

[Skidmore]

It's a townhall type format. A lot of what he is saying makes sense and he does not appear to be insensitive to the role of teachers.

[babylonsister]

1. Matt Lauer, and yes, I am. nt

[Skidmore]

2. Whoops. Not enough coffee yet.

Corrected. Thanks for the assist.

[Pholus]

3. I'm watching Lauer. Obama says the right things, but he isn't getting it.

How can you improve math and science education when such a large portion of the population prides itself on not believing in them?

Also, no concrete statements regarding tenure without which no teacher will ever be able to withstand pressure from the administration or from parents or politicians for that matter.

There is such a rush to fire the ones deemed poor that nobody is watching what will happen to the good ones with standards that might make a school look worse in its goal of "Race to the Top" funds.

[proud2BlibKansan]

4. +1,000

[Skidmore]

7. I heard him address good teachers, rewarding performance, and structuring to attract

talented people to the profession. I also heard him address the discrepancies between school districts, have and have nots, and the role of parents and their responsibilities. It seems to me he has a very good grasp of what is going on in education at many different levels.

[Pholus]

10. Great. Pay for performance. Without job security, pay doesn't matter.

Without tenure, education WILL fail. Especially once you have people who can profit from public schools failing. Have a removal mechanism, but it had better follow a GOOD, WELL DEFINED method. It's anything BUT and clueless administrators and politicians have removed several talented teachers of my acquaintance -- for holding the bar too high. Can't look bad, after all, even if you are.


This happened to a good and dear friend that I remember from Calculus I back in the day.

The rest of us decide to cash out on our educations or go on to graduate school. She's made of a bit more community minded stuff so she became a high school math teacher and moves to northern Minnesota.

First year, students will not do homework for her and failed her tests.

Duh, they fail the class. Of course, as we've seen in the recent debates failing students are always the teacher's fault.

Principal calls her into his office -- tells her he is getting a lot of parental complaints since scholarships are on the line and these grades are ruining the little dahlinks chances for college admissions. She stands her ground -- despite repeated counciling the students didn't do the work and failed their exams, therefore she can not pass them in good conscience.

Gets lots calls from parents. The best one paraphrases as "Look I sucked in math and I don't see why my child should do any better -- but you need to give higher grades -- what are your personal problems that make you such a hard ass cause you are ruining my son's college application."

The principal personally CHANGES the grades so the students pass. Neglects to tell the teacher of course.

When she finds out and complains, she's the one with a formal reprimand.

Contract not renewed the next year.

Now she's SMART AS HECK so she goes back to grad school, gets a masters in computer science and shortly makes a boatload of cash. But that wasn't her first choice in life -- that got ruined by some education expert administrator without a lick of classroom experience but an ear to who has to be happy for HIM to keep his job. Kind of like a Rhee sort of person, near as I can tell.

It all sounds so dandy to have bad teachers under our collective thumbs -- but you ruin the best ones too if they cannot do their jobs without fear of retaliation.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

21. I argue the exact opposite.

And I would further argue that if teachers are serious about improving our education system, that their efforts should be directed at strengthening school administrators and superintendents, which, I would not argue, need a lot of work. But your anecdote does not a system make, and ALL adults in the education system need to be held accountable for their performance - including teachers, principals, superintendents, and administrators. No one should be running free without repercussions.

[Pholus]

22. Anecdotes seemed to work well in "Waiting for Superman" so they work here too.

And see my post below. Accountability is easy to insert from the beginning. The folks making all the promises about the improvements they will make should be held accountable from the day they start. It should be in the contracts.

It won't be. And 10 years from now we'll wonder what the hell happened.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

26. Did you see the movie?

Because it has a whole lot more than anecdotes. I'm guessing you haven't.

[Pholus]

28. Well, like everything else you've said -- you're WRONG!!! :)

[proud2BlibKansan]

40. How do teachers strengthen administrators??

[malaise]

5. Yes I'm watching

WTF does Matt know about anything?

[MadHound]

6. He says the right things, but it is his actions that are the problem

If he isn't insensitive to the role of teachers, one has to wonder why he doesn't take their advice. Oh, yeah, it would get in the way of his agenda to corporatize public education.

[Skidmore]

9. I keep seeing this "doesn't take the adviceof teachers."

Exactly what is that advice? I've see two issues only addressed with vehemence on these boards: 1) tying of teacher appraisals to student performance, and 2) tenure. I'd be interested in hearing concrete proposals for reform beyond this.

[proud2BlibKansan]

11. Both of those issues are HUGE

AFAIC, there doesn't need to be any more issues.

[Skidmore]

18. I want to hear about how schools can be improved.

How education can be improved. I'm not really hearing this come through in the "advice."

[Pholus]

20. Just like I'm seeing a lot of promises from the private school advocates

without a lot of guarantees. I lived through all the promises made by charter schools in AZ. In the end, they mostly sucked except a few. A few examples bordered on illegal, graft filled pits of doo doo. You only heard about the good ones. Thank God I kept my kids in public schools.

We're going to start funneling a boatload of money into promises. Why not start out right and demand accountability from the beginning.

Example contract:

Public school $LOSER only scored $CRAP_SCORE on $BIG_STANDARDIZED_TEST. It is closed down because that is politically popular right now.

Private school $CASH_FOR_ME_YEAH promises to raise scores by ($MAX - $CRAP_SCORE)*0.2 points within the next three years. Taxpayers will finance this attempt. The penalty for not delivering the raised scores is $INSERT_CRIMINAL_PENALTY_OF_THE_DAY or $HUGE_FINE_THAT_CAN_BE_USED_TO_PAY_THE_FOLKS_WHO_WILL_HAVE_TO_CLEAN_UP_THE_MESS.

Then I'll be happy the effort is sincere.

[proud2BlibKansan]

39. We've been put on the defensive

Deliberately I suspect. So we're busy deflecting.

[stray cat]

12. I'm glad he doesn't do whatever anyone tells him to do

[MadHound]

17. Yeah, he just does what the non-education experts tells him to do.

How fucked up is that? You would think that if you wanted to reform a particular field you would consult the experts in that field. Instead he consults those who want to make a major buck off of education.

Why doesn't he listen to what teachers and education experts have to say? That would make the most sense, at least if he is generally concerned about the dismal state of education in our country.

[Pholus]

13. Hey, do all these wonderful reforms. Just make sure:

1) You don't weaken the protections that let me do my job when people more sensitive to public pressure are attacked by those offended by my ultimately having to rate the performance of my students.

2) Contracts with private entities GUARANTEE some level of performance with huge penalties for not delivering.

3) Solid metrics (not involving standardized testing) for teacher merit pay. That's right. Put eyeballs in the classroom. Of course, that costs money.

The current proposals are made under the premise that the education system is so fatally flawed that "cost plus" efforts are completely justified, even if they ultimately fail. That will ruin any chance of it succeeding.

[MadHound]

15. First of all, do what teachers have been screaming about for decades,

Namely fully fund each and every school. Urban and rural schools constantly get the short end of the stick because their tax base is so small.

Furthermore, raise teachers' pay. You want the best and brightest to teach, then you've got to make it worth their while. I've seen far too many wonderful, intelligent students who would make great teachers go into some other field because they simply can't afford it. Students simply can't afford to take on tens of thousands of dollars of debt, only to turn around and go into one of the lowest paying professions around.

Tying teachers' evaluations to standardized test scores is foolish, there are far too many variables to make such scores any sort of reliable metric for judging teacher performance. Teachers are generally evaluated through a variety of more reliable methods that include portfolios, observation, tests, etc. etc. This seems to actually work out pretty well, despite the rhetoric to the contrary.

And yes, we need tenure. It doesn't prevent firing or disciplining teachers, but it does give teachers some protection from the capriciousness of parents and administrators. A lot of people complain that workers in other fields don't get this, well then, instead of reducing everybody to the same low level, form a union, fight for your rights.

But the most pressing need is the one that has never been tried, money. Instead, we try to do education on the cheap, substituting cheap gimmicks and hoping that they'll do the trick. They don't, they simply shortchange generation after generation of students.

[Pholus]

16. + 10e6

Politics above problem solving. That's just what we're doing now.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

25. 80% of principals cite tenure as a substantial impediment to removing ineffective teachers.

That's according to the latest Schools and Staffing Survey conducted by the U.S. Department of Education, directly from the principals' mouths. If you have a problem with "caprious administrators" work to have them held accountable, but don't deny accountability for yourself.

Nice try though.

[Pholus]

27. Yeah, "at will employment" is great if you are the person whose will counts.

But keep up the big lie about tenure being nothing about a negative. Pretty quick you'll be able to ram through your plans to teach intelligent design too!

I know you're patient.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

32. I'm the one who wants to see progress here.

You want the status quo.

By very definition, that makes you the conservative in this conversation. Don't forget that.

[Pholus]

33. It's funny cause returning to slavery could use that same argument.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

34. Oh so wanting teacher accountability is returning to slavery now?

Is that really what you want to go to?

[Pholus]

45. Oh stop being so dramatic. You just can't argue for beans.

> I'm the one who wants to see progress here.

> You want the status quo.

> By very definition, that makes you the conservative in this conversation. Don't forget that.

See -- and I'll use real small words for you here -- you said the status quo was "conservative" like it's a bad thing. I pointed out using sarcasm that there are many things (slavery for one) where the conservative viewpoint might be superior in that change for changes sake is not necessarily an improvement.

Honestly -- your form of education is supposed to be some kind of improvement?

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

50. Yes, it absolutely is.

Unless you really think 50% drop out rates don't need to be improved. Or declining literacy rates. Or the fact that we're dead last in the industrialized world in academic achievement. No, we can't possibly do better than that.

[Pholus]

51. I'm sure we can. Just not with educorp.

[tinymontgomery]

52. As far as drop outs

hold the f*** parents responsible. I tried to drop out 3 months before graduation (early 70's) and my parents tracked me down and dragged me back home and told me I can leave after I graduate. I graduated and left home two days later. Am now glad my parents did that. I guess the teachers should have tracked me down and tried to get me back, like I would have listened to any of them. Hold the parents responsible some how. It is a bunch of bull saying the teachers have to solve every problem. I been a fisherman, worked in printing companies loaded 18 wheelers, pumped gas and them enlisted in the Navy. Went from enlisted to receiving a commission and becoming a SWO in 12 years. I attribute this to my parents and the TEACHERS that gave me the knowledge to be able to go out and perform as well as I have. Based upon how I acted in HS my teachers would have been down checked because I wanted to drop out.
I've been following all these threads and a lot of you need to get out of your ivy tower and come on in to the class room and work on the kids (unless your already are, which I don't think you are based upon your post), then tell me and all the others that you were right all along, I don't think you will or can. And don't feed me the crap it's the field we have chosen, it's a field we love and understand a lot more then those that aren't in teaching. If you can do better come on in if, you dare?


“There are two educations. One should teach us how to make a living and the other how to live.” ~~ John Adams

[Pholus]

54. You got the best education a person could have!

And yes, I'm embarrassed about what I'm flinging here but it frustrates me to no end that the meme that is being advanced claims the only thing stopping us from some new golden age is the teachers themselves. It dishonors so many people I have known, admired and trusted in education. And for that reason I have no self-restraint when I type.

Thank you for what you wrote.

[tinymontgomery]

57. Frustrates me also

that's why I haven't been posting on the threads. The drop out one just pushed my button. I was thinking after I posted it was: my parents, the fishing captain I worked for, the restaurant owners that I washed dishes etc, and all the people in my Navy career that helped me go from E1 to E7 to 04 and my wife (god forbid I forget her) that helped me along. Even the students I work with now teach me things all day. It is a two way street with them, I show them a higher level of learning, they bring me back to reality it is constant roller coaster.


And yes I made a few spelling or grammar on that post. After a 14 hour day at the school (kids had now were else to go) and doing some lesson planning I'm just slightly tired.

[YvonneCa]

56. In 1993...

...that was an old argument.

[MadHound]

29. Yes, but that's odd,

Principles don't remove teachers, district school administrators, the school board, these are the ones who remove teachers. There are good reasons for this.

And thanks, but teachers already have accountability. Annual evaluations, observation, portfolio's, etc. Not to mention that a teacher's every waking, public moment is scrutinized by the community at large.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

30. "Not to mention that a teacher's every waking, public moment is scrutinized by the community"

You are working for the public - that is your job. This is part and parcel. Don't like it? Teach at a private school or get out of teaching. You knew this coming in.

[MadHound]

35. Ah, so I have no right to go to a bar for a couple of drinks without scrutiny?

I have no right to go out on a date without it being the subject of community gossip. Tell me, what other public, non-political employee gets that kind of ongoing scrutiny? Tell you what, can we subject you to the same scrutiny?

Whether you're a public or private employee, your personal life should be your own, not open to the public for everybody to gossip about. And frankly, I would get the same sort of scrutiny whether I was in a public or private school. It isn't a public employee thing, it is a teacher thing.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

36. You. Signed. Up.

Period.

It doesn't matter whether it's right or wrong - Parents have this funny thing about not wanting their kids looking up to someone they view as being disreputable. And while I would have no problem with my kid having a teacher be taught by someone that drinks or even does drugs (so long as it stays out of the classroom, of course), others aren't quite as open minded.

[MadHound]

37. LOL!

And it is that nineteenth century attitude that is part of the problem. Another reason why excellent teaching candidates take a look at the mess the profession is in and ditch it for something else.

Meanwhile, rather than subjecting their teachers to ongoing public scrutiny by the community at large, teachers in the top education countries in the world are treated with the respect that we give doctors. They don't second guess them, they don't subject their lives to a fine tooth comb.

RESPECT! Oh, and they also fully fund their schools and pay their teachers what is the equivalent of a six figure salary here. They seem to get the notion that if you want a top flight public education program, you have to pay for it.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

42. Those teachers also get the job done far better than American teachers.

The funny thing about respect is that one has to earn it. And you cannot possibly tell me that it's easier to teach in the Slovak Republic or Hungary - both countries which currently outrank us in international benchmarks - than it is in the U.S.

And, oh by the way, if you actually bothered to include all of your back-ended benefits - like pensions, health care, etc. - and the fact that tenure pretty much guarantees your job, you'd actually find that you do get compensated at the highest rate in the world for teachers: http://www.worldsalaries.org/teacher.shtml You will have to cite a source for your assertion that teachers elsewhere make the equivalent of a six-figure salary, because the best I can find is that Luxembourg pays its teachers with 15 years experience the equivalent of about $80,000 USD.

[Pholus]

46. Ahhh, so you ARE a conservative. Any welfare queens you'd like to degrade as well?

After all, they're on the public dime -- they have to dance ANY tune you call.

And your tendency to want to "know what public servants are doing" seems to border on big-brother.

Seriously dude, pop some prozac and calm down.

[Name removed]

48. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Pholus]

53. I have more than enough of a clue what *you're* all about, thanks.

And let's look at your oh-so-carefully crafted list. You KNOW I can't resist choices.

No, I didn't trust Bush -- he was pro-corporate just like the people who want privatized education. And one thing that growing up blue collar taught me -- there are a lot of corporate types who love to fuck you over. In a heartbeat. For a dollar. Actually for less if they can do it in bulk. And they seem to take some sick amusement from the process. And now they're telling me they know how to fix education as long as I let them trash the system first? Don't get me started on trust, Nicky. If this entire thing wasn't a back-alley-mugging it wouldn't have the stench of a big money PR campaign.

Now it seems that your second choice would imply that this was somehow independent from the first. After all you said "none are good" for me. If there were only two choices, you'd have used the world "neither." Oh well, literacy is something I really don't expect from you after our interactions but let's humor you and call this an independent second choice just for grins. When it involves subverting the constitution, okay, yes I probably was a bit concerned about the actions of my public servants. Of course, that is a somewhat larger infraction than pretty much any public school teacher I know would be capable of. Shades of grey I guess.

And finally, yes in general I am a "fucking hypocritical piece of shit." But, Nicky, don't worry. We are alike that way. I'm just a bit more honest in my self appraisal than you are. From your missive I seem to imply the that somehow you think that if I was unhappy about the actions of the Bushies I have no moral ground to defend any public servants for any reason? Oh well, coherence is something I really don't expect from you after our interactions either.

In the end I guess I pick all three. You claim that none of them are good for me. I had a momentary sadness you cad! But then I farted and the gas, like the significance of anything you're written, dissipated and is lost in history.

Anyway, it's been fun chatting with you. Take care, enjoy your inevitable victory -- there is too much money behind this for a few ordinary citizens to hope to win against "change" and "profits" -- and a few years from now when we finally get the big reveal and it turns out that like HMOs we're actually worse off than before we started let's see if you have the brass balls to come back and try to sell me another shit sandwich.

[Pholus]

58. MODS: You can remove this one too.

I should know better than to type with my emotions about the issue this high! Thanks!

Pholus

[proud2BlibKansan]

43. Of course they do

How many admitted they fail to fulfill THEIR responsibilities?

[LWolf]

19. .

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=219&topic_id=26493

[Skidmore]

38. Thank you! Thank you!

What I was looking for. Concrete, reality-based, and sensible solutions. Please, please, please pass these on to the WH. Use their contact form. At least get them into the hopper that way.

At this point, I'm sick of hearing arguments that do nothing but address teacher employment and administrative convenience. This is the first post I've seen actually address the needs of the children and factor parents in as something other than a nuiscance to be suffered. The thoughtfulness you put into this is greatly appreciated.

[mcar]

44. Totally agree

These are excellent suggestions that address so many issues.

[LWolf]

55. Good idea. I'll pass them on.

In reality, I've been talking about these kinds of things for many years. Those who could actually enact these kinds of things have tended to turn a deaf ear.

Edited to add: many of the suggestions are things that have been done at public schools I've worked at, at least for a time. A few here and there at each of several different schools. Most of them before the standards and accountability movement moved in with grade-level standardization and high-stakes testing. Much of what we did that was innovative and different was abolished at that time.

[Pholus]

47. Very nice (and underspoken).

Sorry all, but tenure is non-negotiable. How else does a teacher hold the line when parents get irate that you might have the gumption to mention in geology about the age of the Grand Canyon, the universe might be older than 5000 years old, that evolution might be an established theory with applications in the real world (e.g antibiotics)? You know, academic freedom from persecution by a mob....

It all sounds so direct -- tenure is the problem and makes it hard to remove bad teachers. You just wait until a teacher can be fired just for ticking off the wrong person and see how education works out for you.

[mzteris]

31. exactly - there are PLENTY of teachers

who support Obama - you just don't hear much around here - because if they DARE to say anything positive they are vilified.

Take a look at the Dept of Education - there are teachers teachers teachers teachers teachers at every level on every committee - everywhere! I posted some lists once and of course those were IGNORED.

[Name removed]

23. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Pholus]

8. The tax cut statement was a nice dig.

"Now Matt, *you and I* don't need tax cuts, we can buy what our families need."

Now if only I just got the feeling that education reform was not throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

[H2O Man]

14. I did.

Recommended.

[madokie]

24. I missed it

but I didn't miss fuckie todd and his bullshit. What a tool that kid is, someone ought to gerk him up by the nap of his neck and kick the living shit out of him, fucking todd that is.

[glinda]

41. Saw Bloomburg this morning saying "get rid of ten-year". Good by Unions!

[ibegurpard]

49. He's pushing privatization

I will oppose him.