Teacher commits suicide after low rating in teacher-rating database published in LA times

[Liberal_in_LA]

Mourning for teacher found dead in forest
September 27, 2010 | 12:05 pm
A teacher whose body was found underneath a bridge in the Angeles National Forest appears to have committed suicide, authorities said Monday as students and teachers at his school mourned is death.

The body of Rigoberto Ruelas was found Sunday morning around the Big Tujunga Canyon area in the Angeles National Forest, according to the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department. Members of a search-and-rescue team that were training nearby came across Ruelas' vehicle, officials said. They searched a ravine about 100 feet below a nearby bridge and found Ruelas' body.

"Based upon the entirety of the investigation, the evidence indicates he took his own life in this tragedy," Los Angeles County Sheriff's Capt. Mike Parker said.

--------------

KABC-TV Channel 7 quoted family members as saying that Ruelas was distraught about scoring low in a teacher-rating database recently made public by The Times. He had been missing since Sept. 22. South Gate Police Officer Tony Mendez told KCAL-TV Channel 9 that Ruelas was unhappy at his database ranking.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2010/09/south-gate-elementary-teacher-death.html

[slackmaster]

1. Post hoc ergo propter hoc?

Perhaps the teacher rating score was a last straw, but I can't accept, based on available data, that A) The score killed him or B) In the absence of the score, or with a better score, the man would still be alive.

We are all subject to having our work criticized, sometimes unfairly. Most of us cope with it.

[Liberal_in_LA]

6. Most don't have our work criticized in a MAJOR paper

[MineralMan]

10. Unless we are a politician, actor, musician, restaurateur, or other

public figure. Then we do have our work criticized in a major paper. I'm sorry, but your statement is too general.

[merqz]

94. or cop...

A significant difference between public and private employees is that much of the data about public employees is subject to disclosure. Whether or not media ACT upon it to publish it varies.

[MineralMan]

146. Yes. I left police officers out. My mistake. They're another group

who are exposed to heavy media coverage. Thanks for the reminder.

[Hannah Bell]

222. the only time cops' work is scrutinized is when they shoot or beat people to death

with less than adequate provocation. same as when teachers have sex with their students or otherwise cross the line.

that's calling out bad apples, not a public ranking of people who've done nothing wrong.

cops aren't rated in the media.

restaurant reviews are one person's opinion, not a ranking of restaurant personnel from best to worst, by name.

all these supposed analogies -- aren't.

[sabrina 1]

226. Can you post a link to a similar 'exposure' listing

the names of cops in a major publication subjecting them to a flawed rating system, as was done to teachers? I have never seen such a list, which doesn't mean it hasn't happened, but since you claim it does happen, I would like to see an example.

[sabrina 1]

224. Examples please. Post a link to a similar

article listing and rating workers in any other profession the way the L.A. Times went after teachers. Based on the same flawed system?

[slackmaster]

25. Every public employee should be subject to some public scrutiny

They're working on everyone's dime.

In case anyone is interested Rigoberto Ruelas' ratings are listed as a little below average, but not so bad that a psychologically healthy person shouldn't be able to deal with it, in my personal opinion.

http://projects.latimes.com/value-added/teacher/rigoberto-ruelas/

Given the kind of job security that a tenured teacher in Los Angeles has, it's not as if the man's career was on the line because of what the Times published.

I agree with criticism of the rating methodology BTW. It's completely unfair to rate teachers based on the performance of their students alone. The only way I can see to properly evaluate a teacher is through peer review, and objective standards like their dedication to and performance on ongoing training.

[Hannah Bell]

30. actually, it is.

[Iris]

283. ha! If I really were "working on everyone's dime" I'd be making a lot more money.

But I do agree that rating students only on student performance is a no-win situation.

[Hannah Bell]

233. Teachers are often "criticized" in major papers, as are other workers.

What has never been done before, to my knowledge, is for one specific group of workers to be rated hierarchically, by name & school, from "ineffective" to "highly effective" in a major paper, using an opaque rating system devised not by a school district, but by a democratically unaccountable third party (RAND Corp), paid for by a billionaire (Bill Gates).

[PADemD]

7. We are all subject to having our work criticized

Publicly in the LA Times?

[Whisp]

9. then complain to the paper that prints the names

and maybe not blame Obama for this man's death.

yes, I know some are doing exactly this. Don't mean you.

makes me sick how this man is going to be USED.

[proud2BlibKansan]

31. Makes me sick that a thread about this man's death would be unrecced

And yes, many of us have complained to the newspaper.

[slackmaster]

35. I Unrec'ed it because the man's tragic death is being exploited for propaganda purposes

It's not good journalism.

[proud2BlibKansan]

41. You unrecced a thread about a man who DIED

Nice.

The poor journalism is on the part of the LA Times. Not DU.

[slackmaster]

45. Yes, I did, and I'd do it again.

The poor journalism is on the part of the LA Times. Not DU.

Irrelevant.

[JuniperLea]

50. Bullshit... he died and DUers are USING his death for their own reasons...

That's disgusting, wrong, vile, hideous, and unfair to the dead man and everyone else.

[Hannah Bell]

221. what's disgusting & wrong is witch-hunting teachers & billionaires taking over public education &

democratic processes.

[sabrina 1]

228. Yes, it is thoroughly disgusting. This war on teachers is something

the Bush administration TRIED, and there was outrage on boards like this. He was forced to apologize btw for the attempt to demonize teachers unions and never did it again airc.

To see it happening under a Democratic Administration and being defended by some of the same people who were up in arms over Bush's attempts, is simply disgusting.

[JuniperLea]

44. I unrec'd this hideous thread...

There's not enough information in this story, and suicide is a complicated issue that requires far more investigation than we're seeing here. Not to mention the fact that this poor man's death is being used. That is seriously fucked up. I unrec'd, and I'd unrec again... this is a seriously putrid thread.

[proud2BlibKansan]

47. Wow.

Sick.

[JuniperLea]

Indeed... this thread is seriously sick...

Unless you are a psychiatrist who has worked with this man and you have all of the details of his death, you are behaving in a sick and twisted manner by using this heinous situation to further your own agenda. Yes, that is sick.

[Mimosa]

85. Juniper, you are a decent person with standards and integrity

I don't know all the details about this very sad case. Neither does anybody else. There are so many variables involved in teaching. I don't think the LA Times assessment of test scores including some stats over a couple of years is the best way for parents or anybody else to 'grade' teachers.

These days kids often attend school with some lifestyle baggage. Teachers alone can't 'fix' what may be problems in the kids lives. And nobody knows what the teacher may personally have been going through, maybe a personal loss, an illness, or ???

[JuniperLea]

98. That's the thing... suicide is a symptom, not an end result...

There's no question this idea of grading needs a lot of work, but I do believe teachers should be graded just like students are graded.

And you're right... no one has all the details, and none of us here have nearly enough to judge this teacher or his actions. Clearly there's a lot more going on here than we know. I suspect the teacher had problems far beyond his teaching, and that those problems were probably the reason his scores were so low.

No mentally stable individual commits suicide due to one issue.

Perhaps only the best scores should be posted... much like the best student scores in a classroom might be posted. There are surely other ways of doing this... but posting scores did not cause a suicide. I strenuously object to that line of thinking.

[DrDan]

118. "but posting scores did not cause a suicide" - you don't know that

[JuniperLea]

126. Oh, but yes I do...

Have you ever studied suicide? Ever have anyone you know commit suicide? Ever have a brother commit suicide? I have... you learn a thing or six dozen.

[Hannah Bell]

225. oh no, you don't. 4 sources have mentioned the scores specifically;

fellow teachers, family, & school personnel.

witchhunting kills.

[DrDan]

260. Have you ever been a teacher?

I was for 6 years. Finally decided that two meals a day was not fair to a stay-at-home spouse and 2 children.

My wife teaches now and has for the past couple of decades.

Her day starts at 4:45. Out the door not later than 5:30.

Home 12 hours later. Then time for a bit of exercise and dinner - then 3 hours or so of school work at home. Then 6 hours sleep or so and start all over again.

Weekends? - ha.

Is she alone in this type schedule? Nope. Not by a long shot.

So you do not see that this schedule, stress of 150 students daily, stress from parents, stress from principals, can lead to fatigue and depression?

Now lets take away any money for supplies. Not only do teachers have to buy them out of their meager paychecks, but also find the time to go shop for the supplies.

So - after this - and throwing yourself into your school completely, imagine reading in a major paper that you are rated in the bottom third - basically ineffective.

What are the potential outcomes?

*****************

on edit - Oh yeah. Now read in the paper that the president want you to reform your approach. Work harder. Work longer. Otherwise - "move on".

[Hannah Bell]

223. A woman at the school said Ruelas "seemed very concerned"

in reaction to his low score on a teacher rating report recently made public by the Los Angeles Times on its website. "He looked a lot thinner than before."

Family members told news outlets that Ruelas had been upset about scoring low on a teacher rating report made public by The Times.

South Gate police Officer Tony Mendez also told KCAL9 that Ruelas had been upset over a report in The Times ranking Los Angeles Unified teachers based on their students' progress on California standardized tests, and that Ruelas' rating had been less than average.

Parent-teacher conferences last week had left Ruelas especially upset, Mendez told the TV station.

(Reading between the lines we can guess that his 2/3 "below average" ratings were noticed by the parents of at least some of his students)

http://www.dailybreeze.com/latestnews/ci_16185357

[Hannah Bell]

234. I unrec all your increasingly hideous rationalizations of witch-hunting.

And I unrec your hideous attempts to label the victim of witch-hunting "mentally ill".

[Whisp]

57. I didn't fucking unrecc it. take your accusatios elsewhere.

[POAS]

142. I wasn't going to rec or unrec this till I read your

post. This post is using the mans death as a propaganda tool for an agenda and is not about sympathy for the dead man.

Thanks for pushing me to unrec this dreck, if I could unrec your post I would.

[sabrina 1]

229. And I rec'd it. The man's family and friends say he was

distressed over the L.A. Times article. They deserve to have their opinions known and the L.A. Times needs to get the message that their participation in the witch hunting of teachers can and may have had very tragic consequences.

It is disrespectful to try to prevent people from hearing what this teacher's family and friends believe may have contributed to his death. The people with the agenda apparently are those who would deny them an opportunity to share their feelings about their loved one's death. The man is dead. Let his family have their say.

[PADemD]

267. Where did you see the Obama name in my post?

Don't bother to reply. I'm putting you on ignore.

[proud2BlibKansan]

26. On the front page of the newspaper!?

:eyes:

[slackmaster]

29. Rigoberto Ruelas' name did not appear on the front page, or any other page, of any newspaper

Until he went missing.

:eyes: indeed.

[proud2BlibKansan]

33. Oh yes it did

The LA Times published his name and their assessment of his work.

[slackmaster]

38. OK, I don't take the L.A. Times.

Can you provide a link?

[JuniperLea]

60. Got a link?

I'm not finding it in the screen shots I kept of that particular story.

[Hannah Bell]

34. it didn't?

http://projects.latimes.com/value-added/teacher/rigoberto-ruelas/

Los Angeles Teacher Ratings
Rigoberto Ruelas
A 5th grade teacher at Miramonte Elementary in 2009

These graphs show a teacher's "value-added" rating based on his or her students' progress on the California Standards Tests in math and English. The Times’ analysis used all valid student scores available for this teacher from the 2002-03 through 2008-09 academic years. The value-added scores reflect a teacher's effectiveness at raising standardized test scores and, as such, capture only one aspect of a teacher's work.

Overall value-added effectiveness
Math effectiveness English effectiveness This chart shows where teachers in this effectiveness category fall on a distribution of all teachers’ scores.

This chart shows where teachers in this effectiveness category fall on a distribution of all teachers’ scores.
Compared with other Los Angeles Unified teachers on the value-added measure of test score improvement, Ruelas ranked:
•Less effective than average overall.
•Less effective than average in math. Students of teachers in this category, on average, lost about 4 percentile points on the California Standards Test compared with other students at their grade level.
•Average in English. Students of teachers in this category, on average, did not gain or lose significantly on the California Standards Test compared with other students at their grade level.
Ruelas' LAUSD teaching history
2002-03 through 2008-09 academic years

Miramonte Elementary, 2009 - 2003

[slackmaster]

43. That's the same Web page that I provided a link to in reply #25

It's not the front page of the Times.

[Hannah Bell]

55. "or any page"

[slackmaster]

59. The Web is not a newspaper. The Times posted a link to a search page for a database.

For someone to see Mr. Ruelas' score, I believe it would be necessary to know Ruelas' name. The Times did publish the names of the TOP 100 teachers and top schools, but it did not print the name and score of every teacher.

http://projects.latimes.com/value-added/

[Hannah Bell]

74. the times published many stories on the teacher ratings, with links. all anyone needed to

know was the name of the SCHOOL.

you claim that the la times website isn't part of the paper -- distinction without a difference.

[slackmaster]

77. My issue in this sub-thread pertains to proud2BlibKansan's claim of Ruelas' name on the "front page"

Of something. A claim that has not been substantiated by anyone.

Mr. Ruelas was not singled out by the L.A. Times for special persecution. He received exactly the same treatment, or mistreatment, as every other public school teacher in L.A.

If he felt he was treated unfairly, he could have sued the paper.

[Hannah Bell]

78. At least one of the stories about the ratings system was on the front page & connected to the web

page. Close enough for me.

How would he prove "fairness" when the ratings system is not transparent? It's not a simple "here are your kids' scores, thus here is your rating."

No one even knows exactly what measures were used besides scores & what kind of statistical analysis was used.

And that's deliberate.

Bill Gates provided start-up & other funding for the "non-profit" involved, & a RAND employee (Defense industry) did the analysis. Then they got the times to publish; the times didn't initiate the project, they're just the vehicle for the deformers (though they support them).

It's agenda-driven bullshit.

[slackmaster]

79. I agree that the ratings are totally unfair, unreasonable, and inappropriate

But they were not published in order to persecute Rigoberto Ruelas.

[Hannah Bell]

82. but they did, & precipitated his death.

which is what the teacher "ratings" in the LA Times were all about: to create support for a Green Dot takeover.

http://articles.latimes.com/keyword/green-dot-public-sc...

CALIFORNIA | LOCAL
Villaraigosa backs charter school bids, rips Cortines

June 25, 2010 | By Howard Blume, Los Angeles Times

The mayor of Los Angeles sided publicly with local charter schools Thursday in their latest bid to take over new and low-performing campuses, while sharply criticizing the L.A. schools superintendent, his onetime deputy. Mayor Antonio Villaraigosa spoke one week before a deadline for applicants to submit bids for nine new campuses and eight low-performing ones in the Los Angeles Unified School District. In the first round of the groundbreaking competition, groups of teachers in February defied early expectations to claim the vast majority of campuses.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=141x38131#38182

[slackmaster]

84. I really think it's premature to say the ratings precipitated that man's suicide

Teachers know better than anyone else why the ratings are bullshit.

[Hannah Bell]

103. not according to his family. being poorly-rated meant the threat of job loss.

& being under increased scrutiny as a "poor teacher" from his admin & parents.

& once that happens, it = more shit coming down, deservedly or not.

[JuniperLea]

178. The threat of job loss, and even job loss...

Does not automatically equal suicide. That's utterly stupid.

[Hannah Bell]

227. no one said it "automatically" equalled suicide. But you only have to take a look around

& at history to see that the loss of livelihood is a risk factor.

you ought to know that since you style yourself an expert on the subject.

[Mimosa]

88. "It's agenda-driven bullshit."

Hannah, I see what you mean.

[JuniperLea]

111. What about your agenda, Hanna Bell?

Aren't you pushing this for your own cause? Aren't you ignoring the fact that there are so few facts to go on, yet you continue to push your own agenda?

[Hannah Bell]

133. Yes, I have an agenda. My agenda is that of an ordinary citizen, without any billions or billion-

aires behind me, without any financial interest in public schools, either as an employee or admininstrator --

who thinks rule by billionaires is fascist, undemocratic, penurizing, & ultimately death-dealing & wants to stop the takeover of public education, the destruction of public unions, & the blitzkreig of the world's richest assholes on the public purse & the principles of democracy.

That's my fucking agenda.

[JuniperLea]

136. Perhaps... AND using a poor sick dead man...

Pathetic.

[Hannah Bell]

139. his family is also "using" him. capitalism kills in a multitude of ways.

ruelas wasn't "sick". that's the bullshit the ruling class uses to justify their second-hand murders.

[Name removed]

148. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sabrina 1]

231. I share your agenda. I don't have billionaires behind me either.

It is so sad to see people attempting to defend these practices. The L.A. Times had an agenda, Bill Gates and Arne Duncan have an agenda and lots of money to make it happen. Not too many people speaking up for ordinary Americans these days. Thank YOU for doing so.

[dkf]

297. Goodness are they going to sue?

[sabrina 1]

236. Excellent response, thank you!

[sabrina 1]

230. You are now moving the goal posts. The fact is, and his family

and friends have confirmed it, that this teacher was distressed over the publication of his name with a poor rating as a teacher. His name was published, along with the names of other teachers. His students and their parents, his family and friends, everyone whose opinions meant something to him, saw it, had access to it. And the fact that the ratings are based on an extremely flawed method would not help to alleviate the distress any person subjected to this kind of witch hunting in a major publication might feel.

I am really saddened that you can not see how disturbing that was to those teachers. Many of them, like him, who worked under difficult circumstances and were dedicated teachers for many years.

It was a despicable act and the L.A. Times bears responsibility for its actions.

[slackmaster]

269. What the blue fuck are you blathering about?

I've acknowledged REPEATEDLY that the ratings are hopelessly flawed, and that teachers know it better than anyone else does.

It was a despicable act and the L.A. Times bears responsibility for its actions.

I think the teachers should sue the Times for libel, but the Times is in no way responsible for the death of Rigoberto Ruelas.

[sabrina 1]

270. If the teacher's family believe that the Times contributed to his

death, along with a police officer who knew him well, that is what matters.

People CAN be pushed over the edge by something like this. People kill themselves after losing a job which can often cause depression and despair. He was maligned and not even given a chance to see how these conclusions were reached.

This teacher was considered to be one of the best by his students and colleagues from what we are now reading. The Times was irresponsible to publish those ratings, knowing nothing about the methodology or about the people involved. It was an example of journalism at its worst. Having the right to do this doesn't mean that there would not be consequences.

Since that list was published, several teachers have come forward and presented their records which completely contradict the 'findings' of that hit piece.

I expect there will be many lawsuits over this, and apparently, so does the Times.

[nadinbrzezinski]

27. Not in a major paper

I say we start having all reviews published on papers, on ALL professions...

And i mean it. Privacy... so much last week.

[slackmaster]

32. You'd probably be surprised if you knew how much information about private individuals...

...is readily available.

[nadinbrzezinski]

53. NO I would not

but I say let's go all the fucking way... all the fucking way.

Privacy... so last damn last week.

In fact, all the fucking way with two way telescreens... all the fucking way.

[merqz]

99. Complete crap!

Public employees have NO right to privacy as to their performance evaluations, results of discipline investigations etc. Ever heard of the FOIA?

You can go down to your local govt. body and request to see public records data on any public employee. For example, a local paper here prints overtime and overall pay for local cops and firefighters in their study of overtime usage. That would NOT be publically available for private business. It IS for public employees. There have also been requests for disclosure of all emails that the public employee sent using the city email system. Those were released too.


If you work for a public entity, then you have to recognize that many aspects of your performance review, pay, discipline, etc. are PUBLIC RECORD

That has been true ever since FOIA. Whether a newspaper (or any individuals) seeks to get that information and publish it is entirely up to them. I don't agree with the ratings system here, but the LA times is WELL within their legal rights to print the results if they so choose.

[nadinbrzezinski]

108. Neither do private employees

privacy is so last 18th century... so let's go all the way.

[merqz]

116. There is no LEGAL right to access that information for private employees

Sorry. There is a clear distinction here between public and private employees - see FOIA.

You are wrong. A private company can be (and often have been) sued successfully for releasing the type of info on their employees (or not sufficiently protecting it from prying eyes) that a public employee has NO right to privacy for. I am a public employee. I am very aware of this. It's been true for as long as I have been one. If you don't understand the distinction, fine. I do. Public employee is a mixed bag. In many respects we have greater protections than private employees. But when it comes to work performance issues, we have effectively - NONE.

This holds true for cops, firemen, administrators, etc.

[nadinbrzezinski]

119. And I say let's go all the fucking way

stop this sissy pamby distinction.

What is good for the goose... is good for the gander.

No privacy... it is so 18th century. Hell, let's also get rid of the Fourth Amendment, and while at it the Fifth and the First...

I mean why care about private \ public? really?

[merqz]

122. I think this is nonsense. Open government is important.

Public employees have GREAT job protections. I have a great union, I have incredible protections from arbitrary discipline. But I work FOR the public, and the public has a right to info on my performance that they don't have with private employees. It's about open government, something I support.

You have no legal right to all sorts of info about employees at your local dairy farm. You also don't have to buy their milk. Otoh, if you call 911 for fire assistance, you don't get to choose which fire dept. You get your fire dept. You have the right to look into that fire dept. It's budget, how much it's employees make, their discipline and training records, etc. I support that. This is NOT a 4th, 5th, or any other amendment issue. We aren't talking marital status, sexual orientation (my employer - public - fully supports GLBT btw), private medical information, etc. We are talking wages, overtime usage, performance reviews, discipline investigations, etc.

Imo, your post is just silly. If you want to work as a public employee, you accept FOIA. If you don't like the provisions of FOIA, don't work for the government. I want my local cops, firefighters, and other employees to be subject to public disclosure. Open government is important.

[nadinbrzezinski]

124. Transparent governments are great

but PUBLISHING job evaluations on papers is crossing a line...

FOIA sure... going on the LA Times is not.

Can you see the difference?

And here is another problem, while this is being used to attack teachers and bust a union, we are getting increasing invasions of privacy by your government... try looking at the whole picture.

Let me see, tapping the net sans warrants... tracking ALL moneys flowing in and out of the US... (what is colloquially known as a currency control)

If you think this is going to make the WHOLE government more transparent, and not used for political gain... I got some sea front property in Nevada, with wonderful views of the pacific ocean.

And what I said about the Fourth Amendment is not silly... it is coming, functionally that is. The Fifth... well as our USSC seems not to like Miranda... and the First... well when I have national leaders essentially making religious statements...

[merqz]

128. Except you are simply wrong

It is this simple. Anything that is subject to public disclosure is subject to being published in the LA times.

Period.

Whether or not it is good policy on the part of LA times is another question. But public disclosure means PUBLIC disclosure. Whether a citizen journalist posts it on a blog, or the LA times posts it on a website, or the FRONT FUCKING PAGE!. Public information means just that. If info is publically disclosable but media (LA Times) was legally prohibited from printing it, then that would be a violation of the 1st Amendment, as well as making public records de facto private.


The right to disclose = the right to disclose BROADLY.

Period.

Do you support censorship of the media? If you think the LA times can't disclose public records, then you are clearly pro-censorship and against open govt. Open govt. etc. has costs and tradeoffs. As a public employee, I accept those. It's the price of living in a free society, with open govt.

[nadinbrzezinski]

131. WOW you are making quite the jump there

have a good fucking life... buy bye...

[merqz]

134. Clarify

"but PUBLISHING job evaluations on papers is crossing a line"

What line? As I said, I may think the ratings system is kind of whack, but I 100% support the legal right of the LA Times to publish the results.

Do you (support their RIGHT to do so, even if you disagree with them doing it)?

If you do not support their right, you are pro censorship.

If you do support their right, but think it was a bad policy decision, then that's another issue entirely

[Tarheel_Dem]

149. Let me just say that you wrapped it up, and put quite a nice bow on it.

You are probably now on Ignore, because you have made a successful & cogent argument in the face of unbelievable hyperbole. But, I'm assuming since you've been given the dismissive "buh-bye", the poster was just plain out of ammunition. You're good. :thumbsup:

[merqz]

156. Thank you

I did think it quite absurd that all of a sudden the constitution was being shredded because a public employee's performance evaluation, something that has been public record for decades and completely disclosable was... wait for it... disclosed.

[Tarheel_Dem]

177. Stick around. You'll learn that there are groups who feel everyone else...

should be "accountable" and subject to public scrutiny. It really is an excruciating exercise in pretzel logic. I'm not sure how I feel about the LA Times releasing this information, but I have absolutely no doubt, they have every right to do so. Some have gone so far as to imply that the Obama WH is responsible for this, and that I find objectionable.

[merqz]

184. I agree

for those whose respect for the rule of law extends only to those who they prefer, we see this. Burning the Quran? HATE CRIME. Burning the flag? FREE SPEECH. Disclose a teacher's discipline record? Privacy violation! Disclose a cop's discipline record? Accountability.

I'm with you, and I'm not at all convinced these evaluations are a robust metric, but nobody's rights were violated, and nobody is to blame for the teacher's suicide.

[sabrina 1]

243. So you are accusing DUers of dishonesty?

FYI, most DUers will defend both burning the flag and someone's Holy Book as a right. And many will make the point that while we have the right to walk under a moving train, most of us refrain from doing so for obvious reasons.

Your 'judgement' of people on this board is way off base. Rights and morals are two different things. We have many rights we choose not to exercise. I saw NO ONE say that the Quran burner did not have the right to do it. I saw people argue as to why he should not and might even be sued if someone was killed or harmed as a result of his actions. Clearly he realized that himself, and chose not to do it in the end. That is very different from saying he did not have the right.

To defend the L.A. Times' choice to join the witch hunt of teachers is not something I expected to see on DU, although this board has changed considerably since I first came here so it is becoming less surprising to see these rightwing viewpoints expressed here than it once was.

[Hannah Bell]

249. this is the poster that thinks there's some universal foia act that makes all public employees'

evaluations open to anyone who asks for them.

[merqz]

284. you are the poster who can't read. the most relevant law is the California Public Records act

which i have cited more than once and posted a link to.

Feel free to read it...

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=gov&group=06001-07000&file=6250-6270

You are welcome. Note that the California Public Records act is MODELED after FOIA.

[merqz]

279. Strawmen get old

I am NOT defending the LA Times choice to publish these results, since I am not convinced that the performance evaluations are a robust metric.

I am defending their RIGHT to do so, which is entirely different than defending their CHOICE to do so. The former is a matter of law, free speech, and open government. I am also disputing any notion that they are in any way responsible for the suicide.

I am not accusing DUers of dishonesty. I am accusing SOME of them of having double standards when it comes to free speech. I have seen it over and over again. When free speech is offensive to some people, the 1st amendment becomes irrelevant. Nobody would support fining MLK Jr. for police resources, but fining this asshat who burned the Quran is ok? That's a double standard (and constitutional law states the fine is illegal, not to mention the city manager admitted he didn't research its legality).

That's just one example.

Again, though - you are erecting a strawman. I did not say I defended their decision. I said I defended their right to do so. Advocacy of free speech and open govt is not a rightwing trait. So spare me your ad hominem rubbish, about my viewpoints being rightwing.

[MedicalAdmin]

185. But you don't " It's the price of living in a free society, with open govt."

You live in a country with 2 societies - one rich and the rest of us. If you think government is "open" you are wrong. There is NO WAY that TPTB want the government books open, especially defence. If the people knew just how much money was wasted in that catagory alone there would be blood in the streets.


This society is only free for those able to buy it.

[merqz]

214. oh please.

I'm not going to deny that at the higher up levels, there may be people (to include the Obama admin.) fighting against disclosure, at least in some cases. Heck, I'm not going to argue everything the CIA does should be public disclosure. That would be absurd.

But this is not a national security issue, or a covert operation. It's about public employees being accountable to open disclosure. I am one, too. Yes, there are abuses. No, they don't justify further abuse. Not disclosing these reviews to the LA Times would be an abuse by govt.

[Hannah Bell]

250. these "reviews" are in fact not funded or constructed with any public monies whatsoever.

They were designed by a RAND Corporation employee & funded by the Gates Foundation.

I think you don't know what you're talking about.

[merqz]

280. And I think thusly about you

How neat and tidy that is. Regardless, assuming they are not publically funded, that is not the dispositive factor. What matter is - are these performance reviews relied on by their employers? If so, then they are subject to disclosure, just like they are for firefighters, cops, etc.

[sabrina 1]

235. Then post some links that were in a major publication

rating cops, firemen, administrators etc. using the same rating system used in the L.A. Times article on teachers. This is the third time I have asked for this.

Your point does NOT relate to this story. Everyone knows that information is available, when necessary or asked for, on public employees. But please show me a similar case of cops being named in an article, using a flawed rating system which would and could threaten their jobs.

[Hannah Bell]

242. Freedom of Information Act exemption for personnel files defined

Legal Insights for School Districts (Fall 2005)


by Donald L. Potts


A recent case has helped define the term “personnel file” under the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA). In Copley Press, Inc. v. Board of Education for Peoria School District No. 150, ___ Ill.App.3d ____ , 2005 WL 2000933 (3rd Dist. 2005), the Third District addressed the issue of whether a school district had unlawfully refused to release certain records regarding its superintendent by claiming the documents were part of the superintendent’s “personnel file.”

Under the FOIA, public records are presumed to be open and accessible. Documents requested under the Act must be released unless the information is covered by a statutory exemption.

One of the exemptions protects an employee’s personnel file from disclosure (5 ILCS 140/7(1)(b)(ii)). The term “personnel file” is not defined in FOIA, and until Copley Press, no case had considered the issue.

The personnel file exemption provides in relevant part: “(1) The following shall be exempt from inspection and copying:* * *(b) Information that, if disclosed, would constitute a clearly unwarranted invasion of personal privacy, unless the disclosure is consented to in writing by the individual subjects of the information. The disclosure of information that bears on the public duties of public employees and officials shall not be considered an invasion of personal privacy. Information exempted under this subsection (b) shall include but is not limited to: *** (ii) personnel files and personal information maintained with respect to employees, appointees or elected officials of any public body or applicants for those positions.” (5 ILCS 140/7(1)(b)(ii))

The court listed types of documents that could be expected to be found in a personnel file, such as:

“a resume or application,
an employment contract,
policies signed by the employee,
payroll information,
emergency contact information,
training records,
PERFORMANCE EVALUATIONS AND DISCIPLINARY RECORDS

Based on this list, the court found that the performance evaluations were clearly exempt, and that the letter was exempt as both a summary of the performance evaluations and a record of disciplinary action.

In summary, information cannot be made exempt from disclosure under the Freedom of Information Act simply by placing it in an employee’s personnel file, but if the information is properly part of a personnel file, it is exempt from disclosure.


http://www.obkcg.com/article.asp?a=155


Virginia's FOIA (2005):

•Other personal information MAY NOT BE DISCLOSED TO THIRD PARTIES WITHOUT THE WRITTEN CONSENT OF THE SUBJECT EMPLOYEE. This information includes, but may not be limited to:

1.performance evaluations;
2.mental and medical records;
3.credit or payroll deduction information;
4.applications for employment;
5.records of suspension or removal including disciplinary actions under the Standards of Conduct, Policy 1.60;
6.records concerning grievances or complaints;
7.scholastic records;
8.records of arrests, convictions, or investigations;
9.material relating to Workers' Compensation claims;
10.material relating to Unemployment Compensation claims;
11.retirement records;
12.confidential letters of reference or recommendation;
13.results of pre-employment tests; and
14.personal information such as race, sex, age, home address, home telephone number, marital status, dependents' names, insurance coverage, or social security number.

http://www.dhrm.virginia.gov/hrpolicy/web/pol6_05.html


Arkansas, Access to Personnel Files Law Summaries By: HRTools Writer | Tuesday, February 26, 2008

Under Arkansas' Freedom of Information Act, personnel and evaluation records must be made available to the person about whom the records are maintained or to that person's designated representative (Sec. 25-19-105(c), as amended by Act 1093 (H. 1817), L. 1999).

All employee evaluation or job performance records, including preliminary notes and other materials, shall be open to public inspection ONLY UPON FINAL ADMINISTRATIVE RESOLUTION OF ANY SUSPENSION OR TERMINATION PROCEEDING AT WHICH THE RECORDS FORM A BASIS FOR THE DECISION TO SUSPEND OR TERMINATE the employee and if there is a compelling public interest in their disclosure (Sec. 25-19-105(c), as amended by Act 1093 (H. 1817), L. 1999).

http://www.hrtools.com/legal_compliance/arkansas/arkansas_access_to_personnel_files_law_summaries.aspx


Texas, 2006:

Most information in personnel records of school employees is available to anyone who makes a proper request (i.e., requests in writing, by fax or email). The following are examples of exceptions that may relate to personnel files.

• Confidential Information: Information is excepted if it is considered to be confidential by law, either constitutional, statutory, or by judicial decision. Note: AN EVALUATION OF THE PERFORMANCE OF A TEACHER OR ADMINISTRATOR IS CONFIDENTIAL. Tex. Educ. Code § 21.355. However, our current Attorney General has to date ruled that teacher reprimands are not part of the evaluation and, thus, must be made public. This issue is currently being litigated.

http://www.taspa.org/newsletter/online/11-06/3-1-06%20TPIA%20Personnel%20Files.pdf



In fact, FOIA has not allowed the public to inspect personnel evaluations of public employees "as long as you can remember".

The changes that have opened up personnel file data more extensively appear to have occurred since 2007, and they are not universal, but state-by-state.

It's a recent move, consistent with the expansion of the surveillance state, not a long-standing precedent.

If I understand correctly, each state has its own FOIA, they vary, & the federal FOIA applies to federal employees.


Nor are private employees being exempt from such surveillance: Illinois' FOIA, for example:

"Furthermore, the new FOIA specifically extends its reach to include public records not in the possession of a public body but in the possession of a party with whom the agency has contracted to perform a governmental function on behalf of the public body."

[Hannah Bell]

245. dupe

[Hannah Bell]

247. i think yours is the crap: "Public employees have NO right to privacy as to their evaluations"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=9210387&mesg_id=9213773

[DrDan]

2. this insane policy has to stop

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

4. Public school teachers are public employees.

The public has a right to know whether or not their students are getting a quality teacher. This policy is just, should continue, and should be expanded.

[DrDan]

14. so are the military, and firemen, and policemen,

do I deserve to see their personal ratings to know whether my security is in good hands, or my house, or my safety?

Nope - it is the business of those paid to manage them.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

17. Did you not want to know when Abu Ghraib happened?

Did you not want to know what FEMA employees were doing when Katrina happened?
Do you not want to know which officers are most likely to commit racial profiling based on their arrest statistics?
Do you not want to know which houses might burn to the ground because the fire department can't handle their jobs?

Interesting.

[seabeyond]

18. it is par to seeing job evaluations of employees.... posted in a newspaper. nt

[DrDan]

19. now that is quite a stretch

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

24. How so?

Solitary managers routinely sweep things under the rug, and the reason this information was published was specifically BECAUSE this information has been swept under the rug for decades.

Furthermore, if you really want to argue that getting a substandard education doesn't condemn a person to a life of poverty or near-poverty - a life that literally millions of American children are consigned to because no one is bothering to do anything about ineffective teachers - and that this isn't every bit as devastating as the poor response to Katrina or having police officers harass innocent civilians, I don't know what to tell you.

[DrDan]

95. so let me get your point - managers "sweep things under the rug" - so

publish the ratings of all teachers?

Do I have that right?

No accountability for the principals who are hired to perform teacher evaluations and deal with those found ineffective? Publish ALL ratings?

Right?

I have no idea where your second point comes from - except perhaps an overly fertile imagination.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

158. By all means, please do hold the principals accountable as well. (nt)

[DrDan]

253. and lets not let the parents off the hook

how about just publishing all student's grades so we can get a better picture of school's/teacher's/parent's/student's efforts.

[Hannah Bell]

254. no, by god, let's turn it into the war of all against all. rate everyone, & kill the losers.

[DrDan]

256. we are off to a good start with the publishing of this personal data regarding teachers

[DrDan]

257. we are off to a good start with the publishing of this personal data regarding teachers

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

36. Let me pose a hypothetical to you.

You have children about to enter the public school system. The school tells you, "Your child will most likely have 5 horrible teachers at some point in their K-12 education. They have the potential to set your child back an entire grade level - a gap that they will struggle to make up for their entire lives, if they ever do. We know who these teachers are subjectively, and we have data that backs up this assertion - but we're not going to tell you who they are. We can't fire them either because they have tenure."

This, unfortunately, is only a hypothetical in that schools don't advertise the situation, but it is very real and it happens in nearly every school district in the nation. So how do you, as a parent, respond?

[DrDan]

101. of course tenured teachers can be fired

incompetence or gross conduct can certainly lead to a dismissal.

Those ratings are influenced by many many things. To publish the ratings for all teachers is blatantly wrong. They can only be understood in the context of ALL factors.

A parent should be looking for ways to work WITH the teachers and schools to help their children succeed - not looking for who to blame.

[JuniperLea]

192. "Not looking for who to blame"

Oh, the irony.

Not wanting to be blamed whilst blaming the suicide of a poor ill man, using that horrific death as a means to push an agenda.

Pathetic. Truly, disgustingly, pathetic.

[DrDan]

251. just looking at the story and considering the statements made by parties

that actually knew the teacher.

Are all these insults really necessary? Can the rest of us not draw our own conclusions without your insulting comments?

[MedicalAdmin]

191. And I will say back to the school board.

Why do you keep an principal who refuses to do their job and hold their employees accountable? Are they incapable of filling out the paperwork to get a teacher fired. Lord knows as a former teacher I KNOW that non-renewal (or elimination of my position and creating another "similar" position for the principals buddy) happens.

If we are going to hold someone accountable then shouldn't we hold those with the power and authority responsible? Do you agree with this or are you a repub or dino?

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

263. On average, only 3.1 teachers per school district are removed from their jobs each year.

That's 1.5% of all teachers. So no, it's not that simple.

[proud2BlibKansan]

46. The Times published an evaluation of his work

That's not the same as the examples you cited.

[nadinbrzezinski]

58. FALSE ANALOGY

abu Graib was a leak from a US Army soldier to the press... NOT the US military telling you they were doing this. In fact, he released classified information.

Tell me exactly where were the reports on what FEMA employees were doing was reported on papers. What doing a heck of a job brownie was doing was reported, he is not a career employee, and the HEAD of the department, different than a front line worker.

Jeezus age there are days!

[Name removed]

161. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

164. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sabrina 1]

232. So you view teachers as torturing criminals?

Racists? There are no words ...

[Hannah Bell]

240. You equate the results of some bogus opaque ratings system devised by the RAND Corp & paid

and paid for by Bill Gates with allegations of torture, racial profiling, and houses burning.

Interesting.

You seem to think the rating system identifies teachers who are behaving criminally.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

266. You've got a better way to describe condemning innocent kids to a life of poverty?

Because I'd love to hear it.

[Hannah Bell]

272. riiight, if only we had better teachers, we'd all be rich! rich, i tell you!

massive fail.

teachers aren't the ones condemning people to lives of poverty. that would be the deformer class.

[Iris]

285. Look further up the food chain than teachers

[merqz]

102. You have the legal right to it, whether or not you deserve it

under FOIA some people have done that. Media does it all the time, but in the case of firefighters and cops GENERALLY only after they are accused of something. There was a guy in Kirkland WA who made a website with local cops' dates of birth, pay, etc. even their photographs in some cases. Entirely legal. He was ordered to remove their social security #'s though. There is a bill in WA legislature pending that TRIED to change that, fwiw.

I can't speak for the laws regarding military employees, but I can for firefighters and cops - where the rules are the same. Public disclosure is done ALL THE TIME. Any city or county email is also disclosable, so any city or county employee can have their emails publically disclosed too

[DrDan]

121. I think you are wrong

this is from FCC - and is an example only.

*********************************

What types of materials are not available under FOIA?

Although most FCC documents, records, and publications are accessible through FOIA, some types of FCC records are not available. Section 552(b) of the FOIA contains nine types of records which are routinely exempt from disclosure under the FOIA:

...

6.Personnel, medical and similar files, disclosure of which would constitute a clearly unwarranted invasion of personal privacy, 5 U.S.C. § 552(b)(6);

********************************


http://www.fcc.gov/foia/

[merqz]

125. I know I'm right

Because I've had it explained to me, and I've seen it happen to other employees. "unwarranted invasion of personal privacy" is stuff like medical history, marital status, etc.

Many states (California, for example) also have laws like California Public Records act which in many respects, expand public access.

In brief, performance evaluations (mine) are publically disclosable. So are California Teachers.

Let me give you an example. Have you ever read a news article about a cop under investigation for X (let's say he is in a shooting). The media will get copies of his discipline record, performance reviews, etc. Any SUSTAINED discipline record is public record. Performance reviews are public record. NON-sustained or exonerated complaints are not disclosable. Marital status, medical records are not disclosable.

You are correct under both California Public Records Act AND FOIA, that "unwarranted invasion of privacy" is prohibited. You are wrong if you think that performance evaluation ARE considered an invasion of privacy. It would be absurd if they were, imo. Regardless, they aren't

[DrDan]

252. can you post a link? I seem to see this same exclusion made in other departments.

[merqz]

281. I will gladly post links/evidence.

I would prefer they research first before forming an opinion

THIS IS THE LAW.

in california...

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=gov&group=06001-07000&file=6250-6270

I can find no exemption for performance evaluations.


http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:uDzlr9tVC-sJ:www.thefirstamendment.org/publicrecordsact.pdf+california+public+records+act&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEEShl-ClLsidIOvZa-d8iLnBF4RY2JnlIaMztiP-ajI30M0NuSPd8WMm3cCUSJ_veWb_VtSA3c08AUoqZMAL8p69s80K9ge5IY1_Cq-x44BXrAZ_9kBuLiMgdatmTQ54W_kilAR8o&sig=AHIEtbQI_vrsPSy1jbfPg79XaTHUalSsQg

notice there are NO exemptions for performance reviews...

from the wiki entry...
---
In accordance with this policy, public records are broadly defined to include "any writing containing information relating to the conduct of a public's business prepared, owned, used or retained by any state or local agency regardless of physical form or characteristic<.>"<6> Citing with approval an even broader definition of public records adopted by the California Attorney General, another court has stated:

This definition is intended to cover every conceivable kind of record that is involved in the governmental process and will pertain to any new form of record-keeping instrument as it is developed. Only purely personal information unrelated to 'the conduct of the public's business' could be considered exempt from this definition, i.e., the shopping list phoned from home, the letter to a public officer from a friend which is totally void of reference to governmental activities.<7>
Moreover, unless the public records of a local agency are exempt from the provisions of the CPRA, they must be made available for public inspection.<8> Exemptions must be narrowly construed and the public agency bears the burden of proving that an exemption applies.<9>

Most of the exemptions under the CPRA are set forth under Section 6254 and are specific as to certain records or types of records, but under Section 6255 a general exemption exists where, on the facts of the particular case, "the public interest served by not making the record public clearly outweighs the public interest served by disclosure of the record."<10> In reviewing the propriety of an agency decision to withhold records, a court is charged with ascertaining whether nondisclosure was justified under either of these statutes.<11>

Because the CPRA was modeled after the federal Freedom of Information Act ("FOIA"), 5 U.S.C. Section 552 et seq, courts may look to case law under FOIA in construing the CPRA.<12>
---

[Hannah Bell]

274. both that poster & myself have linked you to data that contradicts what you assert.

unless you address it, i conclude you're full of it.

[Hannah Bell]

42. and the la times ratings, devised by rand corp, based on an impenetrable statistical analysis

& funded by bill gates will tell us that.

yeah, right.

[The Philosopher]

3. Public shaming is destructive

It's authority approved bullying. You wouldn't want your boss doing it, you don't want your kids' teacher doing it, why should it be acceptable anywhere?

[Nye Bevan]

5. Yes. And restaurant reviews should also be banned.

What if the owner of a restaurant decides to kill himself after getting a bad review?

[The Philosopher]

21. Well

Shaming and critiquing is two different things.

[JuniperLea]

28. It's pretty damn shameful to get a B or C posted on your restaurant door...

To the point where people won't eat there, and you don't earn money when people don't eat there.

What's not shaming with a letter grade on a restaurant? You know what that means, don't you? That means the place wasn't clean enough... it had rodents... it had cockroaches... all sorts of reasons why a restaurant would get a grade like that.

It very much IS shaming the restaurant owner. And it hits their pocketbook directly.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

39. And it gets them to either improve or to stop harming people by going out of business. (nt)

[proud2BlibKansan]

52. And restaurant owners can fix the problems that led to the low mark

Teachers don't have that kind of control over test scores.

[JuniperLea]

54. Why? eom

[JuniperLea]

100. Why don't teachers have "that kind of control" over test scores?

You say a restaurant owner can fix the problems that led to the low mark, but that teachers don't have that kind of control over test scores.

Why?

[JuniperLea]

138. Why?

I'm waiting.

[Hannah Bell]

248. because they don't have a billion to bribe their students, parents, administrators & politicians

like eli broad does.

[roody]

294. Teachers cannot turn off the television at the students' homes.

Teachers cannot make the children read when not at school. They cannot even cook the kids' food and make them go to bed.

[woo me with science]

305. I have never in my life heard professionals claim to be so ineffectual,

while simultaneously demanding more respect and higher pay.

[The Philosopher]

62. Yes, it is a shame.

But it's not public shaming. That's a public service informing people of the health risks of coming to that establishment between period A and period B.

[JuniperLea]

64. How is it not public when the letter grade is posted on the front door of the restaurant?

And clearly visible to all who drive by?

You're really grasping here. A, B, and C letter grade cards are posted ON the DOOR of each and every restaurant in Los Angeles County... PUBLICALLY posted for all to see.

You don't see it as shameful to the owner? Why?

[Hannah Bell]

51. does the restaurant review publish the name of every employee & use

an impenetrable metric devised by rand corp & funded by bill gates under the table that purports to "neutrally" evaluate the effectiveness of each restaurant employee by name?

no, it doesn't. it's one guy going & eating there & giving his OPINION. We know who pays him & we know it's an OPINION.

and we also know the employer isn't going to fire the bottom-rated 5% based on that OPINION.

[JuniperLea]

67. The SHAMED restaurant brings in far less business...

The owner earns less money, so do the workers by way of less hours and fewer tips.

If an employee in charge of cleaning a restaurant fails to meet standards, you damn betcha they get fired! What world do you live in? There are plenty of people looking for work! There's not much sense in keeping an employee ANYWHERE who cannot meet standards.

[Hannah Bell]

76. blahblahtalkingpoints. There's no system of rating restaurant employees.

& no system that purports to be "neutral".

The only restaurant rating purported to be scientific & neutral is the health inspection system, & it doesn't rate individual employees by name & list them in a hierarchy.

and, fyi, restaurants, being inanimate objects, can't be shamed.

Only human beings can be shamed, & one good way is to whip up some bullshit ratings system the details of which are completely secret, then tell the public that this opaque system is some kind of neutral system that can rank employees -- then put every individual's rating where anyone in the world can see it.

just bullshit talking points from your friend eli.

[JuniperLea]

80. I haven't talked to Eli in months... this is from my own observations and knowledge...

You don't think restaurant employees are expendable? Really? In this economy, you think a restaurant owner is going to keep anyone on payroll who causes them to lose business?

The letter grade is posted PUBLICALLY on the front door of each and every restaurant in Los Angeles County. If a restaurant receives anything less than an A grade, business suffers.

Seems the bullshit talking points are all yours.

[Hannah Bell]

83. not in "months," eh?

[JuniperLea]

87. What's it to you? And don't you think that human beings own restaurants?

Or are they just inanimate objects that run themselves? :eyes:

You really are reaching... and breaking rules too. Your bringing Eli into this conversation is bringing something in from other threads... that's not only really bad communication that shows a horrific lack of skill, it's against the rules.

[Hannah Bell]

106. no, you're reaching. Eli Broad is the biggest funder of school deform in california. He's quite

relevant to this conversation.

[JuniperLea]

114. You brought him up to me based on past conversations...

That you and I have had. THAT is against the rules. He has nothing to do with this particular story.

[Hannah Bell]

135. Eli Broad is one of the Top Three funders of school deform in this country. You have on numerous

occasions mentioned your employment with him in order to defend him as a good guy.

It's public knowledge which you've willingly shared many times.

Btroad funds the talking points used by the school deform crowd, & being as LA is his home turf, he undoubtably was involved in the chain of events that led the LAT to publish teacher ratings.

Sue me.

[JuniperLea]

137. And he has nothing to do with this story...

Until you brought him into the thread... against the rules.

[Hannah Bell]

150. He has everything to do with this story:

Villaragosa is in on it. He totally supports Green Dot's takeover of the schools which is what the teacher "ratings" in the LA Times were all about: to create support for a Green Dot takeover.

http://articles.latimes.com/keyword/green-dot-public-sc...

CALIFORNIA | LOCAL
Villaraigosa backs charter school bids, rips Cortines
June 25, 2010 | By Howard Blume, Los Angeles Times
The mayor of Los Angeles sided publicly with local charter schools Thursday in their latest bid to take over new and low-performing campuses, while sharply criticizing the L.A. schools superintendent, his onetime deputy. Mayor Antonio Villaraigosa spoke one week before a deadline for applicants to submit bids for nine new campuses and eight low-performing ones in the Los Angeles Unified School District. In the first round of the groundbreaking competition, groups of teachers in February defied early expectations to claim the vast majority of campuses.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=141x38131#38182


Philanthropist gives $10.5 million to charter school group

Billionaire philanthropist Eli Broad has donated more than $10 million to a leading charter school organization that will help its bid to triple in size as it continues to establish itself as an alternative to traditional public schools....

The money is earmarked to help Green Dot Public Schools carry out a plan to open some 21 new high school campuses and enroll about one of every 10 high school students currently in L.A. Unified by 2010. The donation, to be announced today, gives Green Dot founder Steve Barr a major boost as he continues to jockey for a dominant role in the volatile landscape of Los Angeles public education.

http://www.greendot.org/news/article/philanthropist_gives_10_5_million_to_charter_school_group.


It would be easy to dismiss Barr as just a brash salesman, except that people keep listening to him. Philanthropist Eli Broad recently gave Green Dot $10.5 million to help the $34-million-a-year operation triple in size. (By 2010, Barr says, he can have one of every 10 high school students in the district enrolled in Green Dot.) About 1,000 parents, meanwhile, have joined a parents group he created to push his reform ideas in schools from Venice to East L.A. And Villaraigosa is using Green Dot ideas as part of his push to overhaul city schools.

"Steve Barr is a believer that one person can change the world," Villaraigosa said. "He is absolutely passionate about transforming our schools, and has put in the blood, sweat and tears to make it happen."

http://www.greendot.org/news/article/give_him_an_a_for_ambition.



Originally conceived in Los Angeles by Steve Barr’s (of Green Dot) Los Angeles Parents Union, and largely funded by the Broad Foundation, the "Parent Trigger" has spread east, and here and here. This is an initiative where if enough parents can be convinced, pressured, and tricked to sign a petition, a school will be closed down and replaced with a charter. On each Form 990 from 2005 to 2008, Steve Barr is listed as the CEO/President of the LAPU board.

Eli Broad contributed nearly 50% of the funding for the launch of the LAPU (formerly the Small Schools Alliance, aka the Parent Revolution). The money he supplied helped pay for the propaganda to make it seem like the movement is being generated by "the people," when in fact it is a carefully planned, targeted marketing campaign designed to wipe out the public schools.

List of donations follows:

http://thebroadreport.blogspot.com/2010/02/connections-between-eli-broad-parent.html

[Name removed]

153. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Hannah Bell]

154. yes, things can be done to human beings that make them desire to die. they certainly can.

ruelas was not "mentally ill"

speaking of vile.

[JuniperLea]

155. Desiring and doing are two completely different things!

Only mentally and/or emotionally ill people commit suicide. Period. You cannot make someone with a sound mind commit suicide. Suicide and suicidal tendencies are symptoms of mental illness.

[Hannah Bell]

165. false, but typical circular definition of capital.

[JuniperLea]

170. Why?

How is it false?

:popcorn:

[Hannah Bell]

173. oooh, popcorn! how utterly original of you! typical again.

eli broad has blood on his hands.

eli broad, the school deformer, who funds green dot schools & took villaraigosa to the woodshed when he didn't sign on completely to broad's vision of mayoral control & his favored charter schools taking over education in LA.

Eli Broad, whose dirty fingerprints are all over the LA Times ratings.

[JuniperLea]

175. And no answer to my quesiont... now THAT is typical...

You can't tell me why my assessment is false.

Thinking of doing something is NOT the same as doing it! If it were the same, the divorce rate would be outrageous and there wouldn't be enough jail cells to hold everyone who ever thought about doing harm to another person.

Face it... your comment is false, it makes no sense at all, so you are stooping to personal attacks. Not going to work. You lose.

[Hannah Bell]

179. you seem to think people are obligated to answer questions asked by people with popcorn.

goodbye.

[JuniperLea]

182. Thanks for proving my point...

You can't answer the question, so you personally attack.

Harrumph! Take your marbles and go home. That doesn't make you right, just childish.

[sabrina 1]

237. Thank you for providing facts to back up your claims.

If only everyone were capable of doing that! Excellent information on what was really behind this L.A. Times witch hunt. I believe the paper deserves to be boycotted. And I will do all I can to inform people of what they did and who is behind this ....

[MedicalAdmin]

209. I work at a medical clinic with several mentally ill patients.

And from my experience and training and from consultations with our medical director just now I can tell you definitively that suicide is not a mental illness. To say so is to both diminish mental illness as well as well as trivialize any suicide.

That is not to say that suicide CAN be a symtom of mental illness, but it is in and of itself NOT a mental illness and yes, Virginia, people without mental illness have and do commit suicide.

That is, as one of my younger employees would say, an epic fail.

[JuniperLea]

210. Talk about that overused and outdated term... fail...

I never said it was a mental illness.

Show me an instance where someone committed suicide and was not depressed, or otherwise mentally ill. On refreshing my memory just now, I see that 10% of suicides are from MEDICAL issues, not mental. My bad... for 10%. Up to 98% of suicides are from mental illness... and up to 10% are from medical illness.

[Name removed]

213. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sabrina 1]

238. Thank you. Facts are inconvenient sometimes

Excellent post and I agree with every word you said. I have known two people who resorted to suicide. One was a father of six children and was distressed after losing his job and was unable to provide for them. No history of mental illness. I appreciate your input.

[WinkyDink]

It has happened (a 3-star chef in France).

[mainer]

304. There have been instances of chefs killing themselves

I seem to recall a very famous French chef committing suicide after a bad review.

[frazzled]

12. But kids do endure that, all the time

If you don't think the grades they receive day in and day out are not known to their peers, or to their families, then you don't remember school. If you've never been a kid who was dejected or depressed because she/he didn't do well or couldn't keep up with others, then you never had a child. If you weren't laughed at or ridiculed because you didn't know the answer when the teacher called on you, or when you spelled the word wong or did the math problem incorrectly on the blackboard, then you didn't go to school. Kids are evaluated every single day. It's important that they get grades, too: but it must be done in a constructive manner, where failure is accompanied by the message that they can and will do better next time.

I think this teacher must have had other problems. The ranking might not have helped his overall mental state. But someone who kills himself is dealing with multiple other issues.

[Hannah Bell]

109. are they published in the paper? the only way their peers would know their grades is if they told

them.

yeah, ruelas was just another nutty loner with "issues". that's the spin.

the ruling class spins all the people they kill, & everyone who stands against them, as nuts, terrorists, psychopaths & madmen.

projection is their specialty.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

145. Yes. Honor roll names are published in the paper. That means if your name doesnt show up in the

paper, you got some Cs and everyone knows it.

[Hannah Bell]

220. lol. Like I said, the names of poor students *aren't* published in the paper for public humiliation

but keep trying, i'm sure you'll come up with a good analogy sometime in the next century.

BTW, honor roll is typically students with a 3.5 or better.

[merqz]

104. It is LEGAL whether or not it is "good" when it comes to public employees

That's the law under FOIA. As a public employee myself, I am well aware of that.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

8. This is unfortunate, but my response is the same for all such reports.

This person obviously had issues that extend far beyond this one incident. This is an indictment of our mental health care infrastructure - which is virtually non-existent - for not providing access to the quality care this person very clearly needed.

My sincere condolences to the family.

[YvonneCa]

132. You have no clue. n/t

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

265. You have less. (nt)

[YvonneCa]

271. There was a point when civil discussion seemed possible...

...on education. That seems not to be the case anymore. Best wishes in your life, Nick.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

300. That's YOUR choice.

YOU chose not to be civil with me. Please don't forget that.

[YvonneCa]

302. I do apologize for the clueless...

...comment. I really try hard to remember we are all supposed to be on the same team. I think my loyalties are somewhat divided on this education issue. I support Obama on the urgency and goals for education...but I am also loyal to teachers I know who are like this LA teacher, dedicated and caring...maybe too much so.

He is not the only teacher this is hurting.

Obama is not the enemy here. I have faith in his motivation for kids. I share it. And you are not the enemy, either...though you DO push the buttons sometimes. :7

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

301. Also for the record, I did not politicize someone's untimely death.

If that's the side you're on, I don't want to talk to you anyway.

[PBS Poll-435]

11. A real-life "Unrec". nt

[MineralMan]

13. Was there a note? Is there evidence that the LA Times story

was the trigger for this suicide? That doesn't seem clear at all. Of course he was unhappy about the ranking. I'm sure many others were, too. Did they kill themselves? Did this man have other underlying problems that contributed? Perhaps those problems affected his teaching. Not enough information is present to make a good evaluation of cause and effect.

In any case, it is very sad that this man took his own life. That is almost always a tragedy.

[DrDan]

16. you are correct - the family would have no clue as to why he might be distraught

:sarcasm:

[MineralMan]

22. The family might also not be telling us everything about the man.

A mourning family is not always the best source immediately after a tragedy occurs. They may be blaming one thing for this suicide, while ignoring a long history of depression. We do not know.

My former father-in-law, blamed the hospital his wife was in for her death, even though she had terminal cancer and was in that hospital to die. There was not going to be a recovery, and he was told that. She died. He forever after blamed the hospital for her death. I was there. She died from her illness, as expected. Surviving relatives often see things through a perspective that isn't accurate.

I'm not saying I know what caused this man to kill himself. I do not know. There is not enough information for me to make that judgment.

[proud2BlibKansan]

56. Now you're claiming the family is being dishonest

The hits just keep on coming. Nice work.

[JuniperLea]

63. Someone needs to go back to school and learn to read for comprehension...

Point to the place in MM's post where he said that. Thank you.

Dishonest? Really?

[dionysus]

73. except he didn't.

[MineralMan]

144. No, I'm saying I don't know. You must not have read my post.

I don't know. Neither do you. I believe I have said that I don't know in every post in this thread. Do you know? How? Please explain.

I don't know, and I don't see how anyone could based on the news stories. Thanks so much for distorting my carefully-chosen words.

[Marr]

187. Anything to defend the team, I guess.

[sabrina 1]

241. The man's family are not the only ones saying this. Maybe you

should read the link, something you really should get in the habit of doing before offering your own opinions.

You are a stranger. You know nothing about this man. His family, friends and the police officer who offered their views are far more likely to know what they are talking about in this instance.

[JuniperLea]

37. I agree with you 100%, MM...

There is no where near enough information in this story. If he was ill enough to top himself, was he too ill to be teaching?

This is all so sad. Suicide is very painful for all concerned.

[msanthrope]

90. Plenty enough information for some to use his death for their own agendas...

Disgusting, but not surprising.

[JuniperLea]

110. That's the vile and disgusting part of this...

That so many are using this poor man's death for their own cause. Despicable.

[msanthrope]

117. Well, it's all about the kids, right? And whatever useful corpses we can find...n/t

[MedicalAdmin]

211. Pot. Kettle. Black.

"That so many are using this poor man's death for their own cause. Despicable."

And yet you are using the suicide as well. Hmmmmm ... does that make you a typical self loathing liberal? (as any typical RW talking head would say)

[Whisp]

15. maybe he would have done the same after he lost at some money gambling...

or a thoussand other reasons people decide on suicide.

but linking it to the teacher frenzy serves your purpose, doesn't it?
evil blood sucking Obama at it again

[EFerrari]

20. His family said he had repeatedly talked about stress at work.

But I suppose they were just attacking Obama, too. :sarcasm:

[Whisp]

23. I'm sorry the guy decided what he did decide.

not only teachers have stress at work.

[merqz]

113. I am sorry this happened, but people have always committed suicide over work

and shaming issues, and always will. That's not the fault of the LA Times. I am reminded of the movie 'absence of malice' here btw. It doesn't make it the "fault" of the LA Times for disclosing publically disclosable info about a PUBLIC EMPLOYEE which under FOIA they have the right to access and disseminate as does ANY citizen. I am a public employee. My performance ratings, pay (including overtime), date of birth, discipline records, and even my emails if sent using my employee email eaccount are ALL public record.

I am NOT saying I agree that it was a good idea for LA Times to publish this stuff, or that I agree with the ratings system. But they are well within their rights, and are certainly NOT responsible for the suicide even if it was the primary reason he did it. If you find out that a guy down the street was convicted for child rape in another state, and you publically disseminate that, and he commits suicide, are you responsible? no

[sabrina 1]

244. I think his family will decide whether the L.A. Times

and the overall attacks on teachers had anything to do with his death. That is not something you can decide. Rights come with responsibility. And the L.A. Times showed a severe lack of responsibility when it published those ratings. Especially since the system of ratings was so questionable. And if it turns out that he was wrongfully rated as a poor teacher, then the family will have one hell of a lawsuit. The issue itself is ongoing so we, you, me or anyone else here have no idea whether those ratings were fair and I'm sure lawyers for many of the teachers mentioned, will be looking into the methods used.

We should know by now not to believe everything we read in the U.S. media. And we should also learn that just because we have a right to do something, doesn't make it responsible to use that right, nor does it guarantee that by doing so there will not be consequences, as apparently, according to his family and friends, is the case here.

[Hannah Bell]

258. +100.

[merqz]

282. They can hold whatever OPINION they want...

But if disseminating publically disclosable information about people was subject to liability if and when the person got upset and killed themself, the concept of free speech, open govt. and public disclosure would be meaningless.

There is no actionable claim here UNLESS there was a privacy violation.

I have reviewed the California Public Records act and what the LA Times did, even if DUMB and BAD POLICY, was well within their first amendment rights.

Look at this objectively. This teacher , a public employee , received a poor performance review.

The LA times allowed access to that performance review, a PUBLIC RECORD.

Note that, not that this would make them liable but still..., they did NOT single this teacher out. They made a whole bunch of these records available. This teacher (apparently may have) been upset about this.

Tough

I am well aware that the family of the kid that killed himself and referenced having listened to Ozzy's "Suicide Solution" also thought THE SONG WAS TO BLAME.

Again, that's their opinion. Wonderful. But not a valid legal claim (hint: they lost)

[sabrina 1]

303. As it turns out, the rating of this teacher

appears to have been very wrong. These ratings are based only on test results btw, a completely inadequate way to rate teachers across the board without taking all the other factors into account that go towards making a teacher effective. To make the claim, publicly, that this is proof of teacher ineffectiveness was ignorance, or perhaps something worse, of the highest order. And shame on a major publication for not doing the necessary research before making that claim.

I believe the Times and the evaluators may be facing a big class action suit, as well as individual suits due to the flawed way these evaluations were made and people's professional reputations were ruined.

Mr. Ruelas was apparently an excellent and extremely effective teacher according to those who know best and are in the best position to rate a teacher's 'effectiveness', his students, parents and colleagues. The 'opinion' because that's all it was, published by the L.A. Times will definitely be challenged, probably in court. And he is not the only one wrongfully rated to the shock of many parents and students.

Os for your example of a song not being the cause of someone's suicide, it is not a correct analogy since no one was smeared or libeled in that case, but publishing information about someone that is actually INCORRECT and harms them in any way, professionally or otherwise, is entirely different.

Anyone remotely familiar with education understands that there is no way test scores can be used from poor, underfunded districts in, eg, the Inner Cities where children need so much preparatory work, care and attention before they can even begin to think about test scores,then make no distinction between their educational needs and the needs of children from wealthier and better funded districts where much of the preparatory work needed in poor districts, has already been done in the home.

Some of the questions that should have been asked and answered in order to make the claim that Mr. Ruelas who worked in such a district eg, were 'did he succeed in motivating his students, in lowering the truancy rate just to get them to school in the first place, and so many, many more. But they did NOT ask those questions and simply labeled him, with zero knowledge of the man and his work, 'ineffective'. It was a disgraceful display of yellow journalism, publishing basically a 'memo' handed to them by some entity whose own qualifications to make these judgements were never determined. Now we find out that in so many areas, had the right questions for evaluation been asked, Mr. Ruelas was indeed a VERY effective teacher.

This was one of the most egregious forms of witch hunting of teachers in this whole war on teachers so far and I believe may have provided the basis for some serious legal ramifications for those responsible, even aside from Mr. Ruelas' tragic death.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

40. Just how bad were the scores?

[MineralMan]

48. He fell in about the two-thirds down in the rankings of the teachers at that

failing school. Somewhat below average. 21 or so did better, 12 did worse. Disappointing, but not near the bottom of the list at that particular school.

[EFerrari]

71. At that "failing" school on a bogus continuum promoted by privateers.

So, now we're out a 14 year veteran working in a poor district with minority children who apparently was well liked and had great attendance.

I hope it was worth it.

[Mimosa]

92. Few people take into account that kids may come from troubled backgrounds

Teachers can try hard, very hard. But some children have a lot of psychological problems and disorder at home which makes them unable to keep up their homework and their grades.

[MineralMan]

147. A question was asked. I answered it. I have no idea how accurate

those ratings are. I do not know. I answered a question regarding where he fell in the rankings in that school. I said nothing regarding the quality of those ratings, because I do not know. I answered the question that was asked.

[Name removed]

166. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[slackmaster]

49. About a C- level

http://projects.latimes.com/value-added/teacher/rigoberto-ruelas/

You can't identify people who perform well without also identifying those who have room for improvement.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0113264/

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

65. So not that bad then.

Seems unlikely that somebody would kill themselves over it.

I'd sure hate to see somebody exploit this poor guy's emotional and mental distress, whatever the real cause may be, for some cheap political point.

[JuniperLea]

69. Exploitation is what I fear too...

And judging by what I'm reading in this thread, that's exactly what's going on here.

[EFerrari]

86. Fear, really? If you "fear" the exploitation of this teacher

wouldn't the time to act on that "fear" be when he was being exploited by privateers in the L.A. Times and by Arne Duncan?

Good grief. I don't believe what I read here any more.

[JuniperLea]

93. I've always thought teachers should have routine psychiatric testing...

Not all people would make good teachers... not all people possess the mental acuity or strength to deal with children... and anyone who commits suicide is suspect, quite honestly. A lot of people have horrific things levied against them daily and don't commit suicide. Suicide is a symptom, and that's what's being forgotten here.

[EFerrari]

120. Obviously, this fourteen year veteran of a tough schook was lacking in some way.

That's why he's dead. :sarcasm:

[JuniperLea]

127. What do you know about suicide?

Ever know someone who committed suicide? Ever study the causes, the studies, the medical records? Ever have a brother who committed suicide? I did... ask me anything.

[EFerrari]

140. Why, yes, I have, all of the above and no, I don't see myself

consulting you on this one.

[JuniperLea]

129. The length of career has zero to do with the quality of same...

He's dead because he committed suicide. "Well" people do NOT commit suicide.

For that matter, it's pretty sick to use the death of a human being to further one's own agenda.

[EFerrari]

141. If you expect people speaking out against the kind of harassment

that likely pushed this teacher over the edge to stfu, you will be disappointed.

[Hannah Bell]

259. it's pretty sick to label someone "mentally ill" in order to further one's agenda.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

277. Dude killed himself.

He obviously wasn't healthy.

[Hannah Bell]

255. deformers really *care* doncha know

[slackmaster]

70. I am OK with the idea that it may have served as some kind of last straw

But the man must have had other issues that were much bigger.

[JuniperLea]

81. Yep...

Suicidal tendencies don't just show up one day...

[Swamp Rat]

61. k&r

The stupidity in this thread is mind-numbing.

[demmiblue]

66. It really has become unbelievable.

RIP, Rigoberto Ruelas.

:(

[EFerrari]

68. And disgusting. n/t

[hlthe2b]

75. I agree.

That some DUers feel comfortable in substituting their kneejerk judgements of someone they NEVER met and know nothing about for that of his direct and immediate family members is arrogant beyond belief. Further, some are making cause and effect judgments for the man's suicide, based on psychological effects, whille discounting the issues that the family believes at play. This, even, though they are neither psychological professionals nor know ANYTHING about the impact of these public revelations.

[Starry Messenger]

208. omg.

I just put three more people on ignore from this thread. Total insanity.

[proud2BlibKansan]

218. Me too

[Starry Messenger]

219. I opened up DU happy that the other thread had been moved back

and then found this. I just wanted to vomit.

[EC]

72. He seems to have been pretty high stressed

if this was all it took for him to cash it in...


But then again, I think people who commit suicide because of being dumped by a boy/girl friend is pretty lame too...

[WinkyDink]

89. What are the odds the big "Print it all" posters here work in the private sector?

[slackmaster]

91. I've always worked in the private sector

My job security has always been closely tied to my job performance. Seniority has never been worth spit.

That said, I have acknowledged repeatedly that the controversial ratings for teachers are flawed and inappropriate.

[WinkyDink]

96. Were your evaluations ever printed in the local paper?

Did your "job performance" depend on how OTHERS did on tests?

Is job-security/seniority not a worthy cause for Democrats?

[slackmaster]

107. Perhaps you missed all the posts where I said the teacher ratings are unfair and inappropriate

The Times sucks for publishing them wholesale in the manner that it did.

The methodology used to evaluate the teachers should be just as available to the public as are the scores, and other aspects of teachers' employment records.

These are people who get paid public money to interact with peoples' children for several hours every working day. Of course their records should be subject to public scrutiny.

[Name removed]

162. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sabrina 1]

246. I work in the private sector, so I guess you are wrong.

I have read what this teacher's students and colleagues have said about him and their opinions differ vastly from the evaluation published in the L.A. Times. The methodology used is very flawed and focuses on only one aspect of a teacher's job.

The methodology needs to be revealed as well as the results, for one thing. Test scores from a school where reportedly the students need a lot more from their teachers than test results, are a piss poor way to evaluate a teacher like this, whose students, many going back years, state that he was the 'best teacher' they ever had and was the reason why they did not join gangs or get in trouble because of the interest he had in them and the encouragement he gave them to do something better with their lives.

I will take those testimonials over Bush/Duncan's 'evaluations' any day. Unless we would prefer to produce gang members who score well on tests.

You don't have to be 'covering your ass' to see when something is just plain wrong. FYI.

[ncteechur]

97. This guy most likely had issues other than just his job performance.

[Whisp]

105. why pass up an opportunity to blame Obama tho?

that is what we are all supposed to think.

IT'S OBAMA'S FAULT!

:rofl:

[Jack_DeLeon]

112. Well atleast there is one more job available in California.

hopefully the next person will do better and not issues.

[marmar]

123. Huh?

:shrug:

[Codeine]

115. Events do not cause suicides.

Long-term depression does.

[JuniperLea]

130. Thank you... suicide is a symptom...

Well people do not commit suicide. "Events" happen to us all, every day. Not everyone who fears losing their job commits suicide. Not everyone who is "publicly shamed" commits suicide.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

143. If a student with depression kills themself after failing to make the honor roll,

Would it be the teacher's fault?


This is not to say whether or not a website database should exist. But as someone that struggled with (and was hospitalized for) depression, I'm not comfortable with people trying to assign a "cause" based on such little information. My understanding is that he scored an "average" in English and a "below average" in Math.

Healthy individuals do not kill themselves over a C and a D. They might vehemently disagre with it, protest...whatever.

[alphafemale]

261. Correct

People are just trying to use this family's tragedy to score points.

[SoxFan]

151. Riddle me this, Batman...

How many of you are professionally trained crime scene investigators?

How many of you are psychiatrists?

How many of you are psychologists?

How many of you have access to Mr. Ruelas' medical history?

How many of you were privy to conversations he may have had with a therapist?

How many of you understand the complex dynamics involved in suicidal adults?

How many of you have the basic human decency to refrain from using a personal tragedy to score political points?

[EFerrari]

159. So, you didn't bother to watch his familiy's statements, did you?

[SoxFan]

172. This isn't about you

It's not about education, or your political agenda.

A family in California has suffered a horrible loss. It's absolutely nauseating that some DUers feel it appropriate to use this death as a chance to score political points.

Depression is a terrible and complicated illness. Anyone who has experienced its effects knows that there is no place for armchair analysis and political gamesmanship in situations like this.

[EFerrari]

198. What part of my post are you responding to? Thanks. n/t

[QC]

262. He can't answer you now. n/t

[sabrina 1]

239. And that family wanted it to be known that their loved one

was distressed over what was published in the L.A. Times.

It is shameful that in order to defend a political agenda, you would deny them the opportunity to use the same medium that they believe contributed to his death, to let the facts they are aware of be known to the public.

Let them have their say. They have lost someone they love, and if you have ever been in their position you would know that when you feel that your lost loved one was wronged, it is a small comfort to be able to try to set it right. Clearly they wanted this to be known and I hope they get their wish and are not censored or prevented from doing so. Thank you in advance for not being part of the censorship of this family.

[JuniperLea]

183. Which one of them is the psychiatrist? eom

[CBR]

152. Using a suicide to advance an agenda is sick. nt

[EFerrari]

157. To be fair, the L.A. Times and Arne Duncun only exploited this teacher when he was alive.

So far, any way.

And no, it's not "sick" to point out how destructive this war on teachers is. Not in any way. You don't know who is out there that needs exactly this support, do you?

[Name removed]

160. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[EFerrari]

168. Well, no and no.

:)

[Name removed]

169. Deleted message

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[JuniperLea]

174. Yep... the death of an ill man...

Makes you wonder, doesn't it?

[EFerrari]

201. Allowing this man's death to go unmarked would be shameful.

And your name calling, while it fits your critical skills, is not an argument.

[Name removed]

264. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

188. Deleted message

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[JuniperLea]

163. It truly is sick and twisted to use the death of some poor man

To further your own agenda. It really truly is. This man was ill...

Shame on all y'all for using this poor sick man.

[EFerrari]

167. He was ill? Link?

You know what is "sick and twisted", rationalizing bullying. Because that's what you're doing.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

171. No one is rationalizing your bullying except you.

[EFerrari]

197. Convenient and transparent. Well done!

[SoxFan]

180. Shameful

You have no idea what you are talking about here.

Using suicide as a chance to advance a political agenda? That's moral bottom feeding.

[Name removed]

189. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[EFerrari]

196. Pitbulls? Monsters? Now, there is a reasonable argument.

[Name removed]

202. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

217. Deleted message

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[EFerrari]

194. Nice try. It didn't work when you told me to have a margarita

and this attempt won't work either. Sorry.

[demmiblue]

200. Seriously?

Pretty disgusting.

:hug:

[Name removed]

203. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[QC]

268. Given the source, I'm just surprised that he didn't order her to

do a nice hat dance and then fix him some tacos.

This is, after all, the same person who constantly referred to women's issues as "pelvic politics" and accused gay men of getting their "knickers in a twist." (Gay men wear panties! How witty!)

[Hannah Bell]

275. that's it, isn't it? the whole attack on teachers & the response to anyone who defends them =

schoolyard bullying writ large. the politics of personal denigration.

[QC]

278. Yes, it is bullying, and on an epic scale at that. n/t

[demmiblue]

291. The source is no more. n/t

[QC]

293. I noticed that.

I wonder if we will now get cheezy "solidarity" sig lines with a picture of a sock and a fan in them or something.

[demmiblue]

295. My lips are sealed.

There seems to be a tit-for-tat situation regarding these things in order to appease all.

[QC]

296. Yep. n/t

[JuniperLea]

181. Mentally healthy people do not commit suicide. Period. eom

[EFerrari]

190. And that has what to do with being harrassed at work?

You have your mantra. You better stick with it.

[JuniperLea]

193. Being harrassed doesn't make well people kill themselves... eom

[EFerrari]

195. You know, we've both been here a long time.

And all I'll say is, you might want to double check on that.

[JuniperLea]

199. Suicide is a symptom of many forms of mental illness...

Depression being the most common. People don't just up and top themselves because of stress at work, or even losing a job. There would be a hell of a lot more suicides if that were the case.

I think the "you might want to double check" finger should point back at yourself.

[EFerrari]

205. You seem to know very little about suicide. I hope you don't continue

to spread what you know all over the intertubes because it's wrong. And more, because you seem to be very comfortable relegating people to the sum of their "symptoms", wrong again.

And my fingers are fine, thanks.

[JuniperLea]

206. I know quite a bit about suicide, thanks so much...

Unfortunately, when someone you love dies that way, you do a lot of reading. You should really do some yourself.

As for me, I'm turning off my computer now. This using the dead for your own agenda is beyond the pale... it's disgusing and ghoulish beyond measure. And the thought that you can actually think a well person might commit suicide is about as... never mind. Good night. I gotta go before I puke.

[SoxFan]

212. I know more than a little about the topic

And your behavior on this thread is an affront to anyone who has ever battled depression. It is an insult to people who have lost family members to suicide.

What JuniperLea lacks in clinical accuracy she makes up for in compassion. To those of us who have fought battles with the black dog, that's a hell of a lot more helpful.

I'll take that over your use of a tragedy to make a political statement any day of the week.

[Hannah Bell]

276. compassion my ass.

[Name removed]

287. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Arkana]

216. Obama didn't cause this guy to commit suicide.

Don't even fucking go there.

[SoxFan]

176. Thank you

This thread nauseates me.

I've fought a battle with depression.

My wife works as a caregiver for the mentally ill.

To use a tragedy to score political points is utterly depraved.

[JuniperLea]

186. .

:hug:

Sorry you have to witness this... I'm sorry any of us have to witness this. It is disgusting, and about as low as a human being can get. The family will end up being used too... we'll no doubt see them tearfully speak on the news now that someone has given them an outlet for their pain and anger.

:cry:

Really disgusting... I think I have to turn the computer off for the night.

[Marr]

204. You know, I could've guessed which posters would be the most morally outraged by this

before I even clicked the link. Who knew they were all so concerned with the issue of suicide, and the proper response to it?

[SoxFan]

207. Tell me you aren't condoning the use of suicide as a political cudgel

I can't tell if you object to people using this man's death as a reason to attack Obama and Duncan, or if you object to those of us who are angered by the politicization of the suicide.

[dkf]

298. They are going to use this man's life and death and everyone will rip him to shreds.

The tragedy will only be compounded.

[Name removed]

215. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Evasporque]

273. Maybe depression should be treated....rather than compounded....nt

[Iris]

286. they probably cut mental health services out of the insurance practice

[Whisp]

288. thats right, Obama cut out mental health insurance

thats the way he has decided to get rid of all the teachers.
why have blood on his hands when he can Make them kill themselves.

good fucking grief

[Iris]

290. Did I say anything about Obama? The OP is about the LA Times for God's sake

[QC]

292. Some of the president's more zealous admirers believe that any acknowledgement

that the world is somehow less than perfect in some way is actually a veiled attack on the president himself.

[Smarmie Doofus]

289. McCarthyism, hysteria, witch hunt and school"reform".

I no longer see any substantive distinctions to be made among the terms.

This mindless, inane "reform" mania has ruined lots of people and will destroy lots more. But what's irking me at the moment is the mentality of some of the people in this thread.

Talk about the need for standardized testing. mother of god.

So... people who jumped out of windows during the McCarthy era and during the blacklist did so, not because of the blacklist ... and not because of McCarthy, they did it because the had DEPRESSION.

Well... aren't you fucking *brilliant*.

[Hannah Bell]

299. +100. yeah, they were *depressed*. ergo, they had funny brain chemistry.

because "normal" people are always happy & gay, no matter what happens to them. like stepford wives.

[mainer]

306. Some people are fragile and easily crushed

Public shaming for less-than-stellar performance is uncalled for. He didn't do anything wrong. He's not on the same level as a public official who steals. This is just a man who had a mediocre performance review, and to put that out there for public viewing is insensitive. What if we were to publish all the grades, good and bad, of school kids? He's not a public person; he's just a school teacher.

People who are "public figures" have to put up with this crap all the time, from writers to musicians to artists. They can't all deal with it, and some simply refuse to read their reviews. Others develop a tough skin. But to simply say, "man up, wuss!" isn't fair to someone who's just doing a job like teaching. I feel so sorry for him.