Ralph Nader: Dems Face Losses to "Most Craven Republican Party in History"

[YankeeLeft7x]

Ralph Nader Interview on DN! With Amy Goodman from November 2, 2010

Here is an Excerpt of the Interview

November 02, 2010

Ralph Nader: Dems Face Losses to "Most Craven Republican Party in History"

With total campaign spending projected to hit $4 billion, the 2010 election is on track to be the most expensive non-presidential contest in US history. For analysis of the 2010 midterms, we speak to former presidential candidate and longtime consumer advocate and corporate critic, Ralph Nader.

RALPH NADER: Yes, I mean, right now, I think if the trends bear out, Amy, once again, the Democrats will demonstrate to the American people they cannot defend the country against the most craven Republican Party in history. I mean, I’ve never seen worse Republicans. With every ounce of potential tolerance I have toward the Republicans, I can say that I have never seen crueler, more vicious, more unknowing Republicans in the Congress, with very few exceptions, like Walter Jones from North Carolina.

So, what we see here is complicity. When people say, "Gee, why aren’t the wars an issue?"—well, because the Democrats are complicit in both the Iraq and Afghanistan war. "Why isn’t corporate welfare and subsidies and bailouts of Wall Street crooks an issue?" Well, because the Democrats have done the same thing as the Republicans. Just now, they’re giving away the store to the taxpayers’ share in General Motors in the IPO that’s about to be issued. And they say, "Well, why aren’t the Democrats making a big deal of corporate crime against consumers and workers and issues like minimum wage and card check?" Because the Democrats don’t want to be involved in that. They’re dialing for the same corporate dollars. They say, "Well, why aren’t the Democrats raising these great civil liberty issues, like what’s in the PATRIOT Act?" Well, they just rubber-stamped another renewal over a year ago of the PATRIOT Act.

So, that’s why they can’t draw a bright line between the Democrats and Republicans, as Franklin Delano Roosevelt did in making the people think that the Republicans were the party of Big Business and the Democrats were the party of working people. And that worked a lot for both him and Harry Truman. Imagine what those two gentlemen would have done to today’s Republican Party, instead of the namby-pamby, wishy-washy, so-called phony "bipartisanship" of Obama’s administration and his allies in Congress.

Read/Watch/Listen to the Show @:
http://www.democracynow.org/2010/11/2/ralph_nader_dems_face_losses_to

[TBF]

1. Recommend. nt

[roguevalley]

68. ralph should know about craven, the bastard, STFU, Ralph.

[tomp]

101. you are part of the problem. nt

[roguevalley]

135. and you make me laugh. I am a hard left dem who was a member

of his spirg groups for years. I know about ralph and I'm entitled to my opinion. You can take a hike. And you are the problem, not me. I know who I am and what I believe and what I will support. Quizling dipshits like Ralph who refuse to allow scrutiny of his investments even though all candidates are supposed to are people hiding shit. Fuck him.

[LooseWilly]

154. Just because Nader went asshat, doesn't mean the words he spake are wrong...

Punch him in the face all you want... but would you care to venture criticism of the words what he spake?

[CommonSensePLZ]

227. He's at least right about this, don't know about all of that

I don't know much about him, but he seems to be an interesting otherwise reasonable person who mainly ruins himself by refusing to just be a dem.

[guruoo]

249. OK, but is he correct or not in what he says here? nt

[Confusious]

106. I have no love for ralph

but he's right. If the dems had more guts, we wouldn't be having this problem.

Mostly obama and harry reid going for half ass measures..

[txlibdem]

192. Nader gave the white house to Bush in 2000

In the 2000 presidential election in Florida, George W. Bush defeated Al Gore by 537 votes. Nader received 97,421 votes, which led to claims that he was responsible for Gore's defeat. Nader, both in his book Crashing the Party and on his website, states: "In the year 2000, exit polls reported that 25% of my voters would have voted for Bush, 38% would have voted for Gore and the rest would not have voted at all."<48> (which would net a 13%, 12,665 votes, advantage for Gore over Bush.)

...snip...

Harry G. Levine, in his essay Ralph Nader as Mad Bomber states that Tarek Milleron, Ralph Nader's nephew and advisor, when asked why Nader wouldn't agree to avoid swing states where his chances of getting votes were less, answered, "Because we want to punish the Democrats, we want to hurt them, wound them."<57>

When Nader, in a letter to environmentalists, attacked Gore for "his role as broker of environmental voters for corporate cash," and "the prototype for the bankable, Green corporate politician," and what he called a string of broken promises to the environmental movement, Sierra Club president Carl Pope sent an open letter to Nader, dated 27 October 2000, defending Al Gore's environmental record and calling Nader's strategy "irresponsible."<58> He wrote:

You have also broken your word to your followers who signed the petitions that got you on the ballot in many states. You pledged you would not campaign as a spoiler and would avoid the swing states. Your recent campaign rhetoric and campaign schedule make it clear that you have broken this pledge... Please accept that I, and the overwhelming majority of the environmental movement in this country, genuinely believe that your strategy is flawed, dangerous and reckless.<59>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ralph_Nader#The_.22third_party_votes.22_controversy

There is no doubt in my mind that Ralph Nader is singularly responsible for Dubya's reign of terror. Without Nader, Bush would not have won against Gore.

So, Mr. Nader. STFU and just take your pile of cash that the corporations and the Bush campaign paid you to help steal the 2000 election and destroy this nation (my personal opinion) and go hide in a hole. Keep your mouth shut and know (fear) that you will join Dick Cheney in Hell soon enough.

But, yeah, if the Dems had governed with some semblance of a F*@king Backbone we wouldn't be having this conversation today. You did it to yourselves, congressional Democrats. Harry Reid can STFU as well for his spineless capitulation and vacillation.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

198. +1

:(

[txlibdem]

204. :-)

Truth. It's more powerful than any bullet point.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

211. for t hose of us who are interested in truth, anyway.

too many people DON'T care to stop their personal narrative long enough to consider new information.

[AlbertCat]

222. for t hose of us who are interested in truth, anyway.

Those of us interested in the truth know Bush didn't win in 2000. The Supremes selected Bush.... anyway

:eyes:


too many people DON'T care to stop their personal narrative long enough to remember what actually happened.

:eyes: :eyes: :eyes:

[Ignis]

301. The truth gets in the way of a good hippie punching.

Thus, it has been discarded by those who find it inconvenient.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

329. yep

it just....

.
.
.

leaves me stuttering and shaking my head.

and despondent.



I'm not in a very good mood today, not feeling very articulate at all......


:(


:cry:

[NewYorkerfromMass]

206. Yeah but

Jeb and Kat Harris would have just thrown out more Dem ballots to make up the difference.
How many "spoiled" ballots were there in Jacksonville again?

[peace frog]

209. Yep.

While it is true this is the most craven Repub Congress in history, it is also true that Nader has lost all credibility.
STFU and go away, Ralph. Permanently.

[defendandprotect]

236. It's Nader's "credibility" which creates fear for Repugs and Dems ....

as he continues to expose the complicity of both parties in corporatism/fascism.

Unfortunately for DLC and New Dems, Ralph Nader doesn't have amnesia ....


Ramh .... crowing about preserving "private health care industry" ... business s/b grateful!

”In a Thursday interview, White House chief of staff Rahm Emanuel argued that rather than recoiling against Obama, business leaders should be grateful for his support on at least a half-dozen counts: his advocacy of greater international trade and education reform open markets despite union skepticism; his rejection of calls from some quarters to nationalize banks during the financial meltdown; the rescue of the automobile industry; the fact that the overhaul of health care preserved the private delivery system; the fact that billions in the stimulus package benefited business with lucrative new contracts, and that financial regulation reform will take away the uncertainty that existed with a broken, pre-crash regulatory apparatus.

http://dyn.politico.com/printstory.cfm?uuid=B2F85DDF-18...



If that doesn't make you sick to your stomach, you can't read --

[peace frog]

277. Nader can pontificate to his gingantic ego's content

No one is listening. He has no credibility.

[defendandprotect]

311. If YOU weren't listening, you wouldn't be posting on this thread ... nor

trying to convince others that Nader is a bad guy!

[peace frog]

314. It's a simple statement of fact

It matters not to me who is or is not *convinced*. Nader is irrelevant, a cipher. He should know this and disappear from politics for good, but unfortunately his outsized ego will never permit such knowledge.

[defendandprotect]

315. Rather, looks more like your "outsized ego" may be driving your anti-Nader comments .....

[peace frog]

316. Project much?

You wouldn't think so if you met me, but project away if it makes you feel better about yourself.

[defendandprotect]

326. Were you "projecting" in the way you spoke of Nader ... ???

THAT's what I was suggesting to you --

Obviously, you feel intense animosity for Nader and while you keep

saying how unimportant all of this is to you, your posts suggest otherwise.


Bye --

[peace frog]

327. Well, now I know projection is your problem

You're projecting way, way too much of yourself into my posts, but do it if it makes you feel better, it's fine with me. See you around. :hi:

[PerpetuallyDazed]

213. I didn't know he was paid by the Bushies...

Where else can I read that? Playing devil's advocate here, how could Nader have known about Bush's horrible eight-long years in office?

[AlbertCat]

220. Bush would not have won against Gore.

Uh... Bush DIDN'T win against Gore. We KNOW that Gore won. The Supremes selected Bush as President.

[defendandprotect]

232. Supreme Court had nothing to do with it .... nor

GOP-sponsored fascist rally to stop the vote counting in Miami-Dade County --

nor 300,000 "Democrats" in Florida voting for W --

Nothing to do with more than 3,000 butterfly ballots for Pat Buchanan --

Nor the tens of thousands of votes for other third parties --

Socialists, Libertarians, etal

Dream on .... !


And just a reminder -- Gore won no matter how the votes are counted --

the election was stolen, but evidently that's too hard to face.

[jimmil]

273. I know this will be lost in the hundreds of posts

NADER DID NOT COST THE ELECTION IN 2000! If Gore would have run a campaign he may have won. How can you loose when you got the budget under control and even in the plus, the economy is great, people are working, how was it that the sitting Vice President LOST under those circumstances?

[Enthusiast]

293. Gore actually won anyway. nt

[defendandprotect]

312. K&R -- terrific comments --

Evidently, the DLC convinced Gore that he was too "populist" -- and Gore tempered

it and began to lose points -- and later regretted it -- and think he broke with the

DLC and left them after the election.


ALSO great points re peace and a surplus!

Evidently Clinton asked Newt Gingrich about that -- how they beat peace and a surplus --

and Newt told Clinton .... "If we had told the truth, we would have lost."



and here's some more info on what happened in Florida in the GOP steal --

Two clues ....

GOP-sponsored fascist rally to stop the vote counting in Miami-Dade County which was

mandated by the Florida State Supreme Court.

Supreme Court decision by Poppy Bush's Gang of 5 right wingers to put Bush in White House.


---------------------------------

Other than that re Bush's -600 vote "win" in Florida --

Subtract that from ....

300,000 "Democrats" in FLORIDA having voted for W --

600+ military ballots illegally counted for W in Florida --

Tens of thousands of votes cast for OTHER third parties in FL -- Libertarians, Socialists --

3,000 illegal butterfly ballots cast in FLORIDA for Pat Buchanan in error --

I trust you have a calculator?

Subtract 600 from any one of those figures --


Nader was scapegoated by the DLC/New Dems because they consider his truth telling a danger

to them -- and because they wouldn't face the reality of the stolen election about which

they did NOTHING!!

[JanMichael]

344. Don't forget the 10's of thousands removed by Choicepoint for being "felons"...

...that really weren't and were 90% or so Black and Dems.

[WizardLeft62]

352. I Agree

Gore lost his home state and Florida was won by Gore amyhow.

[MidwestTransplant]

298. +2

[ProudDad]

300. Give it a rest, stupid

AL GORE SAID "AL GORE LOST THE pRESIDENCY IN 2000"...

And bush was installed by dirty tricks, his brother Jeb and Katherine Harris' racist tactics, Al Gore's "conservative" blue-dog self (he didn't come out as a real environmentalist until he was booted out of office), Sandra Day O'Conner and finally, Al Gore's own cowardice when the election was contested in the Congress...

If you continue to blindly blame Ralph Nader for bush then you, like the idiotic, wishy-washy, valueless dems who just lost large majorities in the Senate and House, will never learn anything!

So get a grip and give it a rest or you'll just continue to repeat your mistakes...

Ralph Nader is 100% correct in his analysis...

[docvet]

313. goddamn!

Ralph is, was and has been correct all along. Are these hate-spewing, anti-democratic fascists paid for by the corporate state or are they truly mentally challenged? Maybe both?

[ProudDad]

334. It's easier to be simple-minded about Gore's and the DLC's fuckup

than to face facts...

[FSogol]

2. STFU, Ralph. The elections aren't over yet. n/t

[Enrique]

3. why isn't mine safety an issue?

after the worst mine accident in 40 years in the U.S., there are no differences between the parties whatsoever?

Why isn't offshore drilling an issue, after the worst environmental accident in our history?

[demosincebirth]

27. No one care about anything that doesn't affect them

[Capitalocracy]

37. Didn't you hear?

They rescued those miners in Chile. Mining is safe now. :eyes:

[BzaDem]

4. Thanks Ralph for your indispensible help in enabling their victories!

After all, if it weren't for you, Citizens United wouldn't have happened.

[moondust]

9. +1

:popcorn:

[AspenRose]

11. Co-sign

and :popcorn:

[blondeatlast]

45. Scooch over a little more, woodja? nt

[gulliver]

20. +1

[UrbScotty]

28. [phone]!

[apocalypsehow]

34. Indeed. +1

[Capitalocracy]

38. Why, because if he didn't run the Republicans wouldn't have stolen the election? nt

[frylock]

51. if ralph didn't run, then those 200,000+ dems would've never voted for bush

[BzaDem]

52. If Ralph didn't run, Gore would have been President even if the 200k dems voted for Bush.

Any other questions?

[frylock]

56. who are you to decide who should and who shouldn't run?

lets not gloss over the FACT that 200,000 people in YOUR democratic party voted for bush. that is what cost gore the election. the purged voter rolls cost gore the election. the butterfly ballots cost gore the election. when you have to resort to "if ralph didn't run," then democracy is FUCKING dead.

[BzaDem]

63. Nope. When people disagree with "if ralph didn't run," our education system is FUCKING dead

since apparently it does not teach basic logic. It is hilarious how you blame everyone except the one single person who actually caused Gore to not become President.

The biggest problem with our democracy is that it ALLOWS people to vote for third party spoilers in the first place. There should be an open primary, where everyone from any party can run (including Nader et al), and then a general election runoff featuring the top 2 candidates. Then, if people wanted to vote for Nader in the second election after he failed to even hit 5% let alone 50% in the first election, that would just be too fucking bad for them. We have this in WA state and LA state (and typical runoffs in many other states) -- it needs to go national.

[mac56]

67. +1

:thumbsup:

[frylock]

73. your argument is fucking ridiculous..

i'll be gawdfuckingdamned if you or ANYONE is going to tell me how i'll vote, or who should run. move to fucking north korea if that's how you want to live.

have you read "Best Money Democracy Can Buy?" yes or no? i'm guessing no, because all you have is fucking reactionary bullshit to back up your lame-ass argument.

[BzaDem]

169. That's too bad for you, since states containing over 1/8 of the population will be informing voters

the two choices available in the general (the top 2 winners of the open primary). Those will be the only two choices on the ballot.

You might live in a state that isn't covered by this system, but I have a feeling that this system will eventually spread (especially to states with ballot initiative processes). So your ability to delude yourself into thinking that there is a viable "third choice" on the ballot might only last for a limited time. Enjoy it while you can.

[D23MIURG23]

100. I find it ironic how you are ranting about logic, but not using it.

The people who voted for Ralph Nader voted for Ralph Nader. You have no basis for assuming that they would have voted for Gore if Nader wasn't running. The reason that Al Gore lost (Supreme Court aside) was that Al Gore failed to get enough votes to secure a clear victory. That's logic.

If you want to assign some percentage of Nader's column to Gore in your hypothetical where Nader didn't run, you should have some reason that goes beyond "they were probably also liberal" for doing so, and your reason should also support your quantitative estimate. That's how real reasoning works.

[Name removed]

128. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

158. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[BzaDem]

162. "You have no basis for assuming that they would have voted for Gore if Nader wasn't running."

:rofl:

[ima_sinnic]

175. if they "would have" voted for Gore, why didn't they?

seems that the one person to blame for Gore's "losing" was Gore.

oh, and nobody "owes" their votes to the Democrats, and the Democrats can't presume to "own" any votes.
People who voted for Nader might have been protesting the sameness of the two parties and registering a protest vote. Without Nader they might have stayed home, or written in their dog's name.
Who are you to presume who Nader voters "would have" voted for?

[BzaDem]

178. "Who are you to presume who Nader voters "would have" voted for?"

Any breathing mammal would be able to tell you who at least 1% of Nader voters would have voted for. What's more surprising is why you are even pretending that it isn't obvious.

[ima_sinnic]

181. no it's not "obvious," sheesh. if they "would have" voted for Gore, why didn't they?

when people vote, they vote for the one they want to vote for. why would they vote for Nader if they really wanted to vote for Gore?

[BzaDem]

253. Because Nader was an option. If he wasn't an option on the ballot, enough would have voted for Gore

such that he would have won by tens of thousands. No serious person really argues otherwise.

The problem is that Nader was allowed to be an option. We need to move to a top-2 primary system, where the general election is a run-off to an all-party primary. That way, if Nader isn't one of the top two candidates in the primary, he won't physically be able to be on the ballot in the general. Luckily, California/WA/LA will have that system in 2012. Hopefully it will spread across the country in the coming years.

[ima_sinnic]

330. I'm serious, and I argue otherwise, b/c all you can do is speculate, number 1,

and number 2, who gives a f&@#k anyway?
if, if, if -- the SC handed it to Bush, several people ran against Bush, not only Nader and Gore, and they all "lost" because of the corrupt system. Not only in Florida (and later Ohio)--who knows what other states have been messed with that just didn't happen to get any attention on election night?

Ralph Nader is just one more convenient distraction, a tired old punching bag to take the heat off the REAL problem: the corporate voting system. The idea that "it's Ralph's fault" that Gore "lost" is a simple-minded, one-dimensional argument that is no more valid than any teabagger-type slogan.

You sound like you'd be happy in Iran, where everybody has to vote a certain way. They used to say the USSR was like that, too. Yes, Ralph Nader was "allowed to be an option"--it's called free elections. Get over it.

Instead of being glad that some states have become so fascist, you might wish for a parliamentary system, where each faction gets proportional representation.

[BzaDem]

340. According to you, California's voting system in 2012 will somehow be "fascist."

That's a sign that you have gone off the deep end.

[PerpetuallyDazed]

215. Do you have any idea how fucking fascist that sounds?

Clearly in the minds of Nader voters, HE was the better candidate. Sorry, you cannot dictate votes. :shrug:

[fishbulb703]

328. That sounds like a corporatist authoritarian position? What? People who throw that word around...

are silly.

[PerpetuallyDazed]

338. Bullying others to vote in YOUR interest, yes

A very authoritarian position, indeed. And I think it's naive to not realize how corporations influence the two major parties.

[pberq]

221. Excellent points!

"seems that the one person to blame for Gore's "losing" was Gore"

It seems that people forget that Gore was a DLC conservative at that time, before he changed into a champion for the environment.

The only reason Ralph Nader received so much support in 2000 was because Gore gave him a huge vacuum to fill on the left. If Gore had supported policies that actually helped the average American, rather than the Military Industrial Complex, then he could easily have won the election.

[John Q. Citizen]

257. The Socialist Workers Party candidate got thousands of votes also, but they never

never even mention them since the whole point of the exercise is to scapegoat Ralph Nader.

The conclusion is what's important to these people (ie Nader is bad) instead of an actual analysis of why Gore was perceived to have lost the election when it's pretty clear he won the election. In fact these people who cling to the need to scapegoat Nader are missing what really happened and spreading a false impression of what took place.

People can and should judge Nader on his issues. I don't always agree with him, but I mostly do.I think the world is a better place because we have Ralph Nader. That's my opinion.

[BzaDem]

260. So what? One person isn't responsible because there were other people also responsible?

:rofl:

I'm glad our criminal justice system doesn't work that way.

[LiberalLovinLug]

323. Um.......yes that's how it works

If there are 5 people involved in a shooting, the criminal justice system does not pick out the one that shot the most people and heap all the blame on that defendant.

[BzaDem]

333. I never said ALL the blame was on Nader. I simply said that if Nader didn't run, Gore would have

been inaugurated in 2001. The fact that there were other factors doesn't make that untrue.

[sabrina 1]

336. No, he wouldn't. Nader was not even a factor. The Neocons

worked for a decade to get their guy in the WH so they could implement all their ideas and nothing was going to stop them from accomplishing that. Including stopping people from voting, how many votes did Harris' little scheme to block the minority vote cost Gore?

You are so in the minority with this view that I can only think you were not around when the theft of the 2000 election took place.

[BzaDem]

341. People who admit that Nader prevented Gore from being inaugurated are in the MINORITY?

:rofl:

Even most Nader voters admit the obvious. It is amazing how utterly divorced from reality a few people here are.

[Prana69]

132. If Gore had given those 200K a reason to vote for him....

... there would have been no need for Nader.

P69

[suzie]

137. Yes.

The 200,000 dixiecrats have voted Republican for years--they were no surprise to anyone.

Without Nader, Gore would have had enough real Democratic votes to win easily.

[alarimer]

168. GORE lost the election.

He didn't even win his home state.

[gort]

78. Ralph Nader did nothing to build his so-called party

He just ran to say there was no difference between the two parties. He proved himself wrong and only helped to put a War Criminal in power. Fuck him.

[frylock]

81. and what have democrats done to insure something like that never happens again?

and why are the dems still funding wars? why is our democratic president expanding USAPATRIOT? outline the major differences between the two parties.

[gort]

86. What did Ralph do?

Not a Goddamned thing.

Ralph please fuck off. Please fuck off.

[Capitalocracy]

91. What did Ralph do?

If it wasn't for Ralph, you wouldn't have a seatbelt in your car.

And I, for one, would be dead today if that were the case.

That's just one example of the many things Ralph Nader has done. No man alive today has done more for this country than Ralph Nader, whatever you think about 2000. And 2000 was a coup by a corrupt Supreme Court. The people voted for Gore.

[ProfessorGAC]

92. Seatbelts? That's All You Got???

That is simply untrue. Completely, utterly, and totally a fantasy.

The data in "Unsafe" was manipulated and has been long been proven to be untrue.

And, the after market sales on seatbelt installations was nearly 2% of total auto sales two years before Ralph even got involved in getting seatbelts installed as standard equipment.

He had nothing to do with that.

GAC

[Enthusiast]

294. Me too....nt

[frylock]

93. you didn't answer my question..

you CAN'T answer my question. all you do is hurl invective.

[gort]

98. What Ralph did

Aggrandize himself.

He did nothing to build a party.
He bitched about every democrat but did nothing to build a coalition or party to run for state seats or congress.

He is an egomaniac. He is not a democrat and he can kindly go fuck himself.

He is, in fact, Unsafe on any Ballot.

[Name removed]

99. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Chulanowa]

136. The way I see it...

The issue isn't that Nader ran. The issue is that there are a lot of dumbfucks who think casting a vote for a third party actually means something in US politics.

"I'm casting a protest ballot!" is probably one of the stupidest phrases in US English.

[eilen]

182. Viewing the wars and the MFing Patriot act

the issue might be that there are a lot of dumbfucks who think casting a vote for any party actually means something in US politics.

the illusion of choices.

[Chulanowa]

324. It means more than not voting

Or voting for Donald Duck Ralph Nader.

[Pooka Fey]

216. Tell it, Brother. Few words and straight to point. I salute you.

[sabrina 1]

114. Al Gore won the 2000 election. The USSC stole it for Bush.

Everything Nader did was legal and democratic.

Odd that you find that to be objectionable, but don't care at all about the criminals who actually stole the election.

[suzie]

138. Nader delivered the election to Republicans for money and fame.

That may have been legal, but it sure is ugly.

The SCOTUS only came into play after Nader had delivered the election to the Republicans.

[sabrina 1]

143. What's ugly is distorting history.

If only Nader had the kind of power attributed to him by those who, for some incomprehensible reason, insist on covering up the treasonous crime that stole the election from the man who won it.

Al Gore won the election. Apparently Nader was unable to prevent him from doing so.

[suzie]

146. What's ugly is the constant apologism for an egomaniac who prefers enabling Republicans

for his own purposes.

Nader delivered the election to Republicans. He campaigned specifically in Florida to deliver the election to Republicans and he succeeded.

He did well and Republicans rewarded him for it with contributions to him in the next election.

It's such an old political story--"reformer takes money to screw over those that he worked to assist", that it's not even very interesting. Except that in this case, Nader's perfidy had disastrous consequences for the nation.

[Pooka Fey]

218. Ding Ding Ding!

Glad to see someone finally posted this.

[defendandprotect]

240. Right ... this DLC "chestnut" continues be put on display here -- silly as it is ...!!

[AnArmyVeteran]

230. Gore should have thrown his support to Nader and quit.

After all, Gore had no intention of debating or beating Bush. Gore was feeding from the same corporate trough of money Bush was. Nader was not for sale. It's too bad people won't wake up and vote for candidates who are not political whores.

[defendandprotect]

239. It was 300,000 "Democrats" in FLORIDA who voted for W .....

and I presume you have a calculator --

and recall that Bush "won" Florida by something less than 600 votes????

DLC needed a scapegoat for the 2000 election since neither did they want to face

the reality of a GOP stolen election against which they did ZIP -- NOTHING!!

[defendandprotect]

238. It was "300,000" Democrats in Florida who voted for W ..... but that was also Nader's fault--!!

:evilgrin:

DLC scapegoated Nader rather than dealing with the reality of the stolen

election -- which many here understand. Only a few still peddling this garbage.


More than 3,000 butterfly ballot votes also went to Pat Buchanan --

and tens of thousands of votes to OTHER liberal third parties --

600 illegal military ballots counted for W --

and on and on --

Now Chief Justice Roberts worked with W campaign and evidently had a lot to do with

the GOP-sponsored fascist rally which succeeded in stopping the vote counting in

Miami-Dade County which was mandated by the Florida State Supreme Court!

When that didn't entirely work -- they moved to the right wing court for a knock out

decision by the Gang of 5 right wingers to give the WH to Bush!!


Journalists who did recount say, "no matter how you count the votes" .... GORE WON!

[wakemewhenitsover]

125. Hear, hear.

What did Nader do in 2000 to prevent those craven Republicans from taking office? Oh yeah, he remained in the Presidential race to split the vote.

[calimary]

39. Oh if I could recommend a post...

I'd recommend this one a BILLION times.

Thank you ralph. You've already said enough and done enough. MORE than enough.

[defendandprotect]

242. Nader had nothing to do with W stealing the election .... and GORE WON!!

Try to catch up with reality --

Journalists concensus -- GORE WON no matter how the votes were counted ...

including in FLORIDA!

In order to run away from the reality of the GOP steal, the DLC offered Nader as a

scapegoat for their failures and their ZIP -- NOTHING response to the steal.


More than 300,000 "Democrats" in Florida voted for W --

More than 600 illegal military ballots were counted for W --

More than 3,000 illegal butterfly ballot votes were cast for Buchanan in error --

Tens of thousands of votes went to OTHER THIRD PARTIES in Florida -- Libertarians, Socialists --

on and on --

Now get out your calculator and subtract Bush's 500+ vote win in Florida from any one of

those figures!!


Unfortunately for the Repugs and the Dems, Nader keeps telling Americans the truth -- !!



AND ... when all of that still didn't work for the Repugs ...

GOP sponsored a fascist rally to stop the vote counting in Miami-Dade County which was

mandated by the Florida State Supreme Court --

When that still wasn't totally successful, Bush campaign appealed to Poppy's right wingers

on the Supreme Court -- and THEY gave the WH to Bush!!

[Enthusiast]

295. Thank you for clarifying

what some still don't know all these years later.

[Name removed]

48. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

50. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[frylock]

53. ooooooohh BURN..

fortunately, i have FACTS to back up my opinion. all you have is blind hatred for nader. lets talk about the 200,000 florida dems that voted for bush, shall we?

[BzaDem]

55. Sure. Let's talk about how Gore would have been President EVEN IF 200k dems voted for Bush

if only Nader dropped out.

"i have FACTS to back up my opinion"

:rofl:

[Naturyl]

57. So actual leftists are supposed to drop out to allow status-quo centrists to win?

Very progressive strategy there.

[BzaDem]

62. YES. How could this not be clear. They are supposed to run in a Democratic primary

and if the lose, acknowledge reality and GTFO (as opposed to enable Republicans).

[frylock]

75. ralph didn't run as a democrat..

jeezusfuckingkrist where are you getting your information?

[BzaDem]

164. Again, what we really need is an open primary, so that the general is between the two candidates

that come in first and second in the primary. That way, people who want to vote for a non-top-2 in the general can fuck off, since said non-top-2 candidate won't even be on the ballot for them to vote for. If they really want to vote for their candidate in the general, they can get him to be one of the top 2 in the primary.

Reasoning with people like you is impossible. Sometimes, you just need to be told "NO," whether you like it or not. Here are the 2 choices -- figure out how to come to terms with that, now that you no longer have the ability to indulge a fantasy of a "viable third choice."

This system already is present in WA and LA, and will be present in CA for the 2012 elections. That's over 1/8 of the country's population. Hopefully, this will expand to the rest of the country.

[D23MIURG23]

109. They are only "supposed" to do that in your imagination.

[BzaDem]

163. The real problem is that they are even allowed to run as a spoiler. The general election should be a

run-off of the top two candidates in a previous election (like in WA, LA, and similar to other states that have post-election runoffs). If people want to vote for Nader in the second election, they can make sure he is one of the top two in the first. Otherwise, they can fuck off, since he won't be on the second ballot.

[Leopolds Ghost]

157. Wow, what a statement. I say NO. I say actual centrists are supposed to form their own party

I bet you'd go with them if they did.

"Reality" here meaning "the party is corporate controlled" since there's no such thing as a "centrist movement" in American culture outside of the wealthy urban elite.

[frylock]

69. yes, that's their argument..

that's all they have because, even ten years later, they can't bother to inform themselves about what really happened. they need a boogeyman, and i guess it's just easier to hate on ralphy rather than question what their party has done to insure that election fraud never happens again.

[frylock]

60. well gee, how can i argue with a roffle smiley..

wow. real persuasive argument you posit there.

try reading this before you embarass yourself any further:

http://www.amazon.com/Best-Democracy-Money-Can-Globalization/dp/0452283914

[Leopolds Ghost]

156. Gore WAS elected President in FL. But you apparently don't read newspapers so you wouldnt know that.

If you subscribed to a decent newspaper, you'd have known -- they did the hand count, not the government.

The government has become (is?) a tool for the rich, that's why they don't invest in things like proper counting of ballots and let the newspapers handle it if there's a profit to be made.

[BzaDem]

165. He may have been elected, but he wasn't President in 2001. He would have been had Ralph Nader

dropped.

[ima_sinnic]

179. bullshit

please provide PROOF that EVERYBODY who voted for Nader "would have" voted for Gore.
You have no way in hell of knowing that.
Where do you even get that idea?
What about those who voted for other 3rd-party candidates (there are always several in every presidential primary)? They don't count? And what about people who didn't vote? Surely some of them "would have" voted for Gore--if--what? I never hear the Nader haters mention how a goodly portion of the population wasn't moved to vote at all by an apparently uninspiring set of choices.

And what about those who voted for Bush? It's not their fault Bush got as many votes as he did?

And what about rigged voting machines and a decidedly unconstitional coup d'etat on the part of the Supreme Court?

Finally, if people "would have" voted for Gore but didn't, why not?
Seems GORE is the reason GORE "lost," not those naughty voters, those undependable voters, who manage to reflect their will and opinion and preferences in votes you don't like.

But, really, that's all so complicated and not in black and white -- I guess it all boils to down to one easy, simple-minded answer: Nader ran, and people actually voted for him! oh, the horror in a democracy!!

[BzaDem]

180. Whoever said anything about "everybody?" If 1% of them voted for Gore, Gore would have been sworn in

as President.

The fact that you pretend otherwise says a lot more about your delusions than it does about Nader.

It is very black and white. If Nader dropped out, there would have been a 100% chance Gore would have been sworn in in 2001. No question, no ambiguity, no hesitation.

You could blame it on other people all you want, but to the extent that you do, that is just pure denial (not actual objective analysis).

[ima_sinnic]

186. gee, if Bush had dropped out, there would have been 100% certainty of Gore, right?

and maybe if Antonin Scalia had had one too many glasses of wine the night before the SC vote, slipped on a banana peel, smashed his head on a marble floor, and was still in a coma now, rendering him unable to perform his duties on the court -- well, who knows--maybe Gore would be president!

so many hypotheticals -- so little reality -- that the entire 2000 election was one big con job, and Ralph Nader didn't have one thing to do with it. If you think Bushie wasn't ordained long before election night, I got a bridge to sell you, CHEAP.

[M_A]

202. Thank you!

[pberq]

223. Ha Ha! - excellent! I love it!

Keep these coming. It's just amazing to me that people still think Nader was the cause of Bush winning the election.
Someone has done a magnificent job of brainwashing. The reality is that SC stole the election.

[BzaDem]

237. Nope. But if Nader dropped out, Gore would have easily won.

Actually, not only would he have won -- there wouldn't have even been a recount. He would have certainly won by that least thousands of votes, but more likely several tens of thousands of votes.

If you can't tell the difference between Bush dropping out and Nader dropping out, that says everything anyone needs to know about the credibility of your "argument."

[ima_sinnic]

241. there is no "difference" betw Bush dropping out & Nader dropping out, because

NEITHER ONE OF THEM HAPPENED.

THAT was my point.

The reality is, people voted for Nader because that was their preference and their constitutional right, whether or not it was the way YOU wanted them to vote, and it doesn't matter in the slightest what you THINK they "would have done" "if Nader hadn't run." Nader ran and people voted for him because they PREFERRED him over Gore, and it is presumptuous and ignorant to think their votes somehow "belonged" to Democrats. "Who else are they going to vote for?" Is that what you think? Unfortunately, this isn't Iran and people ARE allowed to vote for people besides the Democrat. If Ralph Nader isn't running, they can write in a name. Why not blame Fido? Bottom line, they DIDN'T vote for Gore, that's all you know, and whose fault is that? That's what happens in elections. You can't say, gee, if nobody else ran, MY person would have been elected.

No, really, blame the Constitution, which gives each person one vote on a secret ballot for any candidate, and any citizen within basic requirements the right to run for office. boo hoo, some of them are NOT going to vote for YOUR candidate, and some will run against him or her. how horrible for you.

[BzaDem]

251. Just because you deny reality doesn't mean reality somehow isn't reality.

Just because people have the "constitutional right" to enable Bush doesn't mean that they didn't enable Bush. Just because Nader isn't mandated by law to drop out doesn't mean he didn't single-handedly cause Bush's victory. You are conflating two completely separate issues -- whether Nader had the right to elect Bush, and whether he actually did.

"You can't say, gee, if nobody else ran, MY person would have been elected."

Actually, I can, because it is true. The fact that observing reality makes you uncomfortable doesn't make it untrue.

"No, really, blame the Constitution, which gives each person one vote on a secret ballot for any candidate"

The Constitution actually confers no such right. It doesn't even require that Presidents be popularly elected. It gives state legislatures complete discretion in allocating electoral votes. Starting in 2012, in states comprising 1/8 of the population, third party spoilers will no longer be on the ballot. The only two candidates on the ballot will be the top two candidates of the open, all-party primary. If people want to vote for Nader in the general, well that's just too bad for them, because he won't be on the ballot.

I expect that system will expand for the rest of the country. People like you are impossible to reason with -- you simply need to be told "NO."

But even that is still a separate question (of whether people should be allowed to enable Republicans by voting for third party spoilers). It doesn't change the fact that voting for a third party factually enables Republicans, your false equivalence to Bush voters notwithstanding.

[ima_sinnic]

331. whatever. how about if they ran someone who people would RATHER vote for than Nader? problem solved!

[defendandprotect]

246. Nonsense ... Bush won by 500+ votes in Florida ... Buchanan "won" 3,000+ votes on

the illegal butterfly ballots in FLORIDA -- ????

Why not blame him? Had Buchanan dropped out, Gore would have won?



And, again -- GORE WON, INCLUDING IN FLORIDA --

The Democrats couln't deal with the steal so they found a scapegoat --

and there are still a few dumb enough to believe it!

[Enthusiast]

296. Plus fucking one!

Con job. Con job. Con job. Con Job. Just like the 2010 midterms.

[defendandprotect]

245. Flash News: The 2000 election was stolen by GOP --

Evidently, you haven't noticed that either?

Two clues ....

GOP-sponsored fascist rally to stop the vote counting in Miami-Dade County which was

mandated by the Florida State Supreme Court.

Supreme Court decision by Poppy Bush's Gang of 5 right wingers to put Bush in White House.


---------------------------------

Other than that re Bush's -600 vote "win" in Florida --

Subtract that from ....

300,000 "Democrats" in FLORIDA having voted for W --

600+ military ballots illegally counted for W in Florida --

Tens of thousands of votes cast for OTHER third parties in FL -- Libertarians, Socialists --

3,000 illegal butterfly ballots cast in FLORIDA for Pat Buchanan in error --

I trust you have a calculator?

Subtract 600 from any one of those figures --


Nader was scapegoated by the DLC/New Dems because they consider his truth telling a danger

to them -- and because they wouldn't face the reality of the stolen election about which

they did NOTHING!!

[Better Believe It]

65. Democratic Senators voted for Bush's Supreme Court appointments.

And they agreed to not filibuster against his appointments.

Did you somehow manage to forget that little, tiny factoid?

You want to find real George W. Bush and Republican party enablers?

Just find the Demcratic Senators who voted for Bush's legislative agenda and appointments.

Of course, you don't have a problem with those Democrats who have functioned as Republican enablers, do ya now?

Just pick on poor Ralph who didn't get to cast an actual vote and warned us about Republican enablers within the Democratic party.

How convenient for you.

[BzaDem]

66. You REALLY think that Republicans would just sit back and allow Democrats to deny him any

appointments, and not remove the filibuster for judicial nominations?

[Better Believe It]

118. You're making my point. Thank you! Like I and others have pointed

out numerous times, when the Republicans controlled the Senate, they controlled it! When a few Senate Democrats merely threatened a procedural filibuster, the Republicans read the riot act to Senate Democrats. Republicans were prepared to use the Constitutional Option that would have prevented any kind of Democratic filibuster from happening .... and they meant it!

In response, Democratic party leaders agree to not "filibuster" President Bush's appointments to the Supreme Court and many of them even voted for Bush's extreme right-wing appointments!

Now wasn't that just sweet?

So how did Democratic leadership in the Senate "fought" against Republican procedural filibusters when they became the majority?

Well, they whimper a lot. But, that hasn't been very effective now, has it?

With only one exception in the past two years, Senator Reid and his disciples of moderation have failed to force, under Senate rules, the Republicans to engage in a real filibusters and they have never even threatened to use the Constitutional Option to flat out prevent Republican filibusters.

And why such timidity? Well, the Republicans wouldn't like that and might say some really bad things about Democrats!

So thanks again for making my point, which was:

Senate Republicans when in control fought against and stopped Democratic procedural filibusters against George W. Bush by threatening to use the Constitutional Option.

Senate Democrats when in control have never threatened to end any Republican procedural filibusters using the Constitutional Option.

[BzaDem]

167. You are (as always) missing the point. Republicans didn't vote against cloture for any of Obama's

judicial nominees. If they started blocking all our judicial nominations, we would have done the same thing for judicial appointments.

Your confusion is conflating judicial appointments (itself a subset of all appointments) with everything that goes through the Senate.

[Better Believe It]

214. You're changing the subject. But the new point you made is just plain wrong.

Your wrote: "Republicans didn't vote against cloture for any of Obama's judicial nominees."

Really? So Republicans didn't act as obstructionists in the Senate. Well, that's news!

If Republicans regain control of the Senate and White House they won't permit filibusters .... not even the fake pretend procedural filibusters you seem to be so fond of.

Republicans stopped threatened Democratic filibusters against Bush's Supreme Court nominations back in 2005 by simply indicating they might use the Constitutional Option.

[sabrina 1]

112. The SC Court in an act of treason, handed the election to George

Bush.

Gore won the election.

Nader could not have prevented Gore from winning even if he wanted to.

This is a democracy. Ralph Nader ran a legal, democratic campaign. He did nothing wrong.

George Bush otoh, ran a corrupt campaign. He lost and then five SC court justices committed an act of treason, interfered in the electoral process, and handed him the election.

This is why we never get anything done. It is so easy to rile up partisan emotions, focus people's minds on trivialities and while people are looking at the latest distraction, the major crime gets ignored.

Thanks for helping cover up that crime. Although history will record it, the criminals, thanks to those so easily distracted, will never be brought to justice.

[suzie]

139. Nader delivered the election to the Republicans.

It's a nice fiction for Nader apologists to blame the SCOTUS, but it was Nader who made it all possible.

[sabrina 1]

145. Repeating a distortion doesn't make it true.

Gore won the election, which means Nader had zero to do with what happened.

You can be angry at the Democratic process that, thankfully, allows citizens to run for office without having to ask for your approval, AND *gasp* allows voters to vote for whomever they choose.

I happen to like that kind of democratic process.

But I'll reserve my anger for the criminals on the SC who violated the Constitution to steal an election and nearly destroyed this country as a result.

Gore won, Nader lost. The SC fixed that to ensure that Bush became president.

You cannot be the cause of a defeat if there WAS NO DEFEAT. You seem to be having trouble with the facts.

[suzie]

149. In your unending apologism for Ralph Nader, you're simply unwilling to look at the facts.

Without Nader, there is no close vote, there is no recount. There is no SCOTUS.

All the vote-counting which triggered all the lawsuits wouldn't have come into play if Nader hadn't been willing to throw the election to the Republicans.

People are free to vote for whomever, but if Nader had dropped out, or not run, or not targeted Florida specifically as one of the states in which he would try to diminish a Gore turnout, we would not have had a mandatory recount, and thus no lawsuits.

Nader was only one part of the effort to repress the vote, disenfranchise voters, but he was a key part. If Al Gore had a large enough margin, there would have been no court cases, no recounting.

Nader worked Florida specifically to make sure that didn't happen.

It's nice to try and blame it all on the SCOTUS, but that was really after the fact--Ralph Nader delivered the 2000 election to Republicans.

[sabrina 1]

153. You can whine all you want about the electoral process and refuse

to accept our democratic system. But nothing that happened in Florida was against democratic prinicples, until the USSC unconstitutionally interfered in an election.

The votes of the American people do not belong to two political parties. They belong to t he voters. You seem to be of the opinion that voters should not have a choice if neither of the two parties represent them. You are wrong.

If a party fails to win based on the number of votes they get, they obviously failed to sell their ideas to voters. This is our system, if you don't like it, stop whining about it and try to change it.

However, that is NOT what happened in 2000.

Gore WON the election.

And no matter how many times you try to ignore, deny, or distort that fact, it will remain a fact just as the fact that any American citizen is free to run for elected office if they qualify remains a fact. There is no purpose to whining over someone legally entering a race for elected office. It is a useless waste of time and energy. However, apprehending criminals is NOT a waste of time and not doing so led to the theft of the 2004 election and has made a mockery of our electoral system.

[Enthusiast]

299. Re-read Sabrina's post.

There was NO defeat! Gore won!

[suzie]

320. I don't contest that.

But because of Nader, Gore didn't win by enough votes to have that declared on Election Night.

So, the whole process became mired in the Courts and ultimately Gore did not take the oath of office, because Ralph Nader specifically worked to insure a lower Gore turnout.

[ProudDad]

308. You're the one unwilling to face facts...

Al Gore was a republican in all but name (and his environmental stance -- which was suppressed while he was Veep)

He was WAY to the right of Clinton on nearly everything from war to rights...

More facts: Voter suppression by Jeb Bush and Katherine Harris. They were good for 150,000 votes being suppressed.

More facts: Gore didn't have to surrender... Gore could have allowed the challenge that the Black Caucus tried to mount...

More facts: Al Gore said, "Al Gore lost the election in 2000."

Try to see beyond your knee-jerk blind hate, eh?

You Democrats ain't gonna get anywhere if you can't learn from history. From yesterday's results, it appears you ain't gonna get anywhere 'cause the dumb fucks who had huge majorities in 2008 didn't learn from history...

[sabrina 1]

335. Thank you.

I keep wondering where these 'blame Nader' people are coming from. Were they sleeping through that period? Did they miss the bought and paid for felon's list, the unbelievable crooked tactics and dirty tricks that were going on to try to steal that election? But even with all that, Gore still won. The least of his problems was Nader. He was up against a huge criminal organization with vast and very special resources and no matter what he did, they were going to win that election.

Nader was not even a factor since the same thing would have happened whether he was in the race or not.

Anyone who continues to blame Nader cannot possibly be serious or have any knowledge of what went on in that crooked election.

What I don't get is why the need to let the real criminals off the hook? I feel like I'm missing something there.

[Le Taz Hot]

171. +1

Excellent. History has also shown us what blind partisanship does bring us -- fascism and we're here.

[defendandprotect]

248. +1000% --

[Enthusiast]

297. Exactly....nt

[TheMadMonk]

119. No, it was Democratics falling over each other to get across that...

...centreline and make themselves "attractive" to corporate/right leaning campaign contributors; It IS DEMOCRATICS that have moved so far to the right, that by today's standards Nixon was a radical Socialist. It is Democratics who have moved so far right, that it takes a Christine O'Donell to distinuish the new Right from the new Left.

AND it is Democratic voters who time and time again, have demonstrated that they would very much prefer to vote for a polititian who offers them something and fails to deliver, than one who promises necessary things for others and delivers.

How many Americans would see their children starve? Not because they are too proud for charity, but because they will be damned before they allow that charity to also go to: "worthless no hopers", "niggers", "wetbacks", and other "Unamerican" "undesirables"

Ralph Nader came forward with a message that America needs to radically change its path, to work for the greatest good rather than the greatest profit.

In America, the greedy come before the needy. And most Americans are happy with that, because they are absolutely convinced that they too can join the greedy, if they just manage to get rid of the welfare parasites holding them back.

[wutangfan85]

166. Your are

instantly fanned! well done!

[defendandprotect]

250. True... we now have one right wing party and one radical right wing party -- !!

[LiberalLovinLug]

325. Exactly.

Putting aside the argument that Gore actually won by votes, how is it the fault of Nader that he is the only one saying and fighting for ideals that the Democratic party used to fight for? And that that appeals to those voters who are sick of the Dems asslicking of war mongering corporations?

The Democrats could have simple co-opted Ralph's message (ie. actually stood up to corporate power) and made him redundant. But the DLC is hanging on to a failed strategy of pissing on it's base and trying to portray themselves as the new Ronald Reagan party.

[nilram]

141. +10

[Zoeisright]

190. +100000000000000000000

[Deep13]

194. +1

[onehandle]

199. Right. Thanks, Ralph! nt

[Joe Bacon]

217. + thousands

Plusing this for the all the families of servicemen killed in Iraq and Afghanistan thanks to Ralph's bloated ego.

[BeyondGeography]

5. Did asshole say something?

[apnu]

6. I'm still pissed at Ralph for 2000... but I agree with him here.

He's saying what many of us here on DU have said before. The Dems don't stand up to the Republicans. I fucking hate that.

[defendandprotect]

252. Ralph had nothing to do with Bush "win" .... by, eh, less than 600 votes in Florida ....

Two clues ....

* GOP-sponsored fascist rally to stop the vote counting in Miami-Dade County which was

mandated by the Florida State Supreme Court.

* Supreme Court decision by Poppy Bush's Gang of 5 right wingers to put Bush in White House.


---------------------------------

Other than that re Bush's -600 vote "win" in Florida --

Subtract that from ....

300,000 "Democrats" in FLORIDA having voted for W --

600+ military ballots illegally counted for W in Florida --

Tens of thousands of votes cast for OTHER third parties in FL -- Libertarians, Socialists --

3,000 illegal butterfly ballots cast in FLORIDA for Pat Buchanan in error --

I trust you have a calculator?

Subtract 600 from any one of those figures --


Nader was scapegoated by the DLC/New Dems because they consider his truth telling a danger

to them -- and because they wouldn't face the reality of the stolen election about which

they did NOTHING!!

[BootinUp]

7. Nader seems to have changed his tune from 2000.

Little late Ralph.

[Zoeisright]

191. Yeah, no kidding. I mean, I thought both parties were the SAME

according to Saint Ralph.


:sarcasm:

[defendandprotect]

255. You know, anger can really be blinding ... you should reread the article ....

and try catching up with this info --

Two clues ....

GOP-sponsored fascist rally to stop the vote counting in Miami-Dade County which was

mandated by the Florida State Supreme Court.

Supreme Court decision by Poppy Bush's Gang of 5 right wingers to put Bush in White House.


---------------------------------

Other than that re Bush's -600 vote "win" in Florida --

Subtract that from ....

300,000 "Democrats" in FLORIDA having voted for W --

600+ military ballots illegally counted for W in Florida --

Tens of thousands of votes cast for OTHER third parties in FL -- Libertarians, Socialists --

3,000 illegal butterfly ballots cast in FLORIDA for Pat Buchanan in error --

I trust you have a calculator?

Subtract 600 from any one of those figures --


Nader was scapegoated by the DLC/New Dems because they consider his truth telling a danger

to them -- and because they wouldn't face the reality of the stolen election about which

they did NOTHING!!

[the redcoat]

8. Go Ralph!

Politicians will be politicians, no matter which side they're on. It's tough for us to criticize our own side, and while I firmly believe we are miles above the opposition, that in no way makes the dems perfect.

[LoZoccolo]

10. Ralph Nader: instant unrecommend n/t

[sabrina 1]

116. Ralph Nader instant rec. One of the smartest men in America

Gore won the 2000 election.

The USSC stole it for Bush.

Funny how a few people choose to protect those five criminals for their treasonous act.

Nader had zero to do with the theft of the 2000 election. To say demonstrates an ignorance, perhaps willful, of history.

[inna]

126. +1,000 and thank you - nt

[suzie]

142. The SCOTUS simply stopped the vote-counting.

The Florida Legislature would have certified the vote even if the SCOTUS hadn't stopped the vote-counting.

Ralph Nader had done his work in throwing the election well.

[sabrina 1]

148. They interfered in the electoral process, a violation of the Constitution

Not even sane Conservatives, and I've discussed this with many of them, dispute that fact.

Stop defending them. They are guilty of a treasonous act and would have been held accountable for it if Democrats had not done as they always do, 'move on' from major crimes thinking somehow this will benefit the country.

Take your argument to one of the country's top and most successful prosecutors:



None Dare Call It Treason

WASHINGTON - January 19 - NONE DARE CALL IT TREASON

"That an election for an American President can be stolen by the highest court in the land under the deliberate pretext of an inapplicable constitutional provision has got to be one of the most frightening and dangerous events ever to have occurred in this country."

Renowned litigator and award-winning writer Vincent Bugliosi dissects the US Supreme Court's election decision in an explosive analytic report in the February 5, 2001 issue of The Nation magazine.

His conclusion that the five justices who made up the majority in Florida election case "are criminals in every true sense of the word, and in a fair and in a just world belong behind bars," while shocking, is supported by past precedent and a statutory reading of the applicable laws governing judicial conduct, as Bugliosi rightly insists.

Or remain ignorant. Makes no difference to me. But the facts are indisputable as most people know. Bugliosi merely tried the case, in theory using all his knowledge of the law and the skills that made him such a successful prosecutor. A case that SHOULD have tried in reality. Anyone with a passing knowledge of the Constitution would laugh at the idea that anyone else was responsible for that travesty of justice.

[suzie]

152. Bugliosi uses the imagery of the giant squid that puts out clouds of ink

in an effort to confuse its enemies, just as the defense tries to confuse a jury, in one of his books.

Like the effort that you constantly make to disguise the role of Ralph Nader in making George Bush president.

I don't defend the actions of the SCOTUS at all. It was all stunningly awful.

But none of it would have occurred without Ralph Nader attempting to suppress/divert the additional votes that would have gone to Al Gore that would have sealed the election without any recounting.

You're unwilling to admit the fact that it even if the SCOTUS hadn't intervened, the Florida legislature was set to certify vote totals that favored Bush, and that they would have been able to do so because the vote totals were so close.

Because Ralph had done his job of putting the Republicans in office.

[sabrina 1]

155. You are doing a fine job of defending criminals. I will leave you to

your illusions. Supposition about what the USSC would have, might have, could have done is not relevant at all. We'll never know. What we do know is that a crime was committed against the American people by five SC justices.

Bugliosi is a highly respected prosecutor. But I get the feeling that even if there was trial and a conviction, and the Florida SC stated that it fully intended to let the voting continue, you would still be screaming 'No, it was RALPH!'

You are among a tiny number of people who cling to this illusion and you all sound very silly at this point in time.

[suzie]

159. What are you even talking about--"Trial and conviction?".

"The Florida Supreme Court stated that it did fully intend to let the voting continue". WHAT?

The vote counting was continuing.

But you seem unable to comprehend that once the mandatory recount commenced, the Republicans were in charge in Florida.

Ralph Nader's job was to make the Gore margin small enough that the election couldn't be called for Gore.

Calling me a "defender of criminals" may make nice rhetoric for you, but in fact it doesn't change your apologism for absolving Nader of making sure that Bush won.

BTW, I didn't read Bugliosi's book, but I did read all the decisions from the trial court on up to the SCOTUS as they came out, listened to a lot of the televised hearings, court proceedings, discussions.

So take your information gleaned from one book and go lecture someone else.

[pberq]

224. +1000 nt

[defendandprotect]

256. +1000% --

[Exultant Democracy]

265. I'm not a fan of his choice in 2000, but I do like seatbelts. nt

[JonLP24]

12. I thought he made good points

Especially here--They say, "Well, why aren’t the Democrats raising these great civil liberty issues, like what’s in the PATRIOT Act?" Well, they just rubber-stamped another renewal over a year ago of the PATRIOT Act.

[frylock]

54. just another inconvenient truth for the nader haters

[depakid]

72. They really are an impressive bunch aren't they?

Among other things, incapable of learning, much like the "strategists" and many of the politicians in the party.

[frylock]

76. they rival the teabaggers in their ignorance..

it would be laughable if it were't so scary. they want absolute say as to who should be able to run. no concept whatsoever as to the meaning of democracy.

[defendandprotect]

258. dupe

Two clues ....

GOP-sponsored fascist rally to stop the vote counting in Miami-Dade County which was

mandated by the Florida State Supreme Court.

Supreme Court decision by Poppy Bush's Gang of 5 right wingers to put Bush in White House.


---------------------------------

Other than that re Bush's -600 vote "win" in Florida --

Subtract that from ....

300,000 "Democrats" in FLORIDA having voted for W --

600+ military ballots illegally counted for W in Florida --

Tens of thousands of votes cast for OTHER third parties in FL -- Libertarians, Socialists --

3,000 illegal butterfly ballots cast in FLORIDA for Pat Buchanan in error --

I trust you have a calculator?

Subtract 600 from any one of those figures --


Nader was scapegoated by the DLC/New Dems because they consider his truth telling a danger

to them -- and because they wouldn't face the reality of the stolen election about which

they did NOTHING!!

[defendandprotect]

259. Quite a few of them know the truth ... but continue to try to spread animosity for Nader here ....

for that old reason that they hate any criticism of Democrats!


As for 2000 ---

Two clues ....

GOP-sponsored fascist rally to stop the vote counting in Miami-Dade County which was

mandated by the Florida State Supreme Court.

Supreme Court decision by Poppy Bush's Gang of 5 right wingers to put Bush in White House.


---------------------------------

Other than that re Bush's -600 vote "win" in Florida --

Subtract that from ....

300,000 "Democrats" in FLORIDA having voted for W --

600+ military ballots illegally counted for W in Florida --

Tens of thousands of votes cast for OTHER third parties in FL -- Libertarians, Socialists --

3,000 illegal butterfly ballots cast in FLORIDA for Pat Buchanan in error --

I trust you have a calculator?

Subtract 600 from any one of those figures --


Nader was scapegoated by the DLC/New Dems because they consider his truth telling a danger

to them -- and because they wouldn't face the reality of the stolen election about which

they did NOTHING!!

[suzie]

317. Those same 300,000 dixiecrats vote for Republicans in every election.

You act as if that were some mystical concept, but you can look at the counties where there is a higher Democratic registration than ever votes for Democrats.

And if you live in Florida and work the phones, you get to be screamed at by some of them for suggesting that they consider a Democrat for elected office.

But, it makes a nice little diversion from the electoral reality of Florida 2000. Which was that Ralph Nader deliberately and premeditatively delivered the state to Republicans because he diverted enough
Democratic votes to himself to depress Gore's outcomes enough to mire the election in the recount process and the courts.

No DLCer/New Dems forced Nader to campaign specifically in a swing state run by the Bushes and to argue that Gore=Bush. He did it for the time-honored reason, fame and money.

[disillusioned73]

13. Lotta un-reccing going on...

truth hurts, I guess.

[Lil Missy]

18. It's a conspiracy.

[fascisthunter]

44. nah... the truth just hurts

[MilesColtrane]

14. Really?

On election day?

Destructive criticism in that he openly advocates voting for a Green party candidate over a Democrat.

[hay rick]

15. Clear vision a decade late.

NOW the Republicans are really bad. When his ego was on the line, he exaggerated the differences between himself and Gore and minimized the differences between Gore and Bush.

[Ikonoklast]

80. The Republican Bush Pioneers Nader took money from didn't seem too bad.

But, I guess it's OK if Nader takes their money, when his sacred hands touch it, it becomes holy and pure.

[treestar]

16. Defend the voters from the Republicans?

All the voters have to do is not vote for Republicans. He makes it sound like the voters do nothing.

[leftstreet]

17. K&R

[SidDithers]

19. Fuck Nader...

unrec.

Sid

[beforeyoureyes]

21. I wish people would channel their anger againt dems who fail to represent them

Instead of spewing hate and blame towards Nadar...

He speaks the truth.

The dems had the country by the tail, they needed to step up and represent the people. That is what we all wanted. Get pissed at Nadar, if you want, but it doesn't change the truth of what he says.

(comment not directed at original poster, of course, but those certain responders)

[Better Believe It]

31. Or against Republicans instead of one of our own progressives, Ralph Nader.

[suzie]

144. Nader is not a progressive--he enabled the 8 years of the Bush presidency.

I don't remember a lot of progressive stuff there.

[mmonk]

83. Good luck with that.

[readmoreoften]

103. +1

[kgnu_fan]

22. Until Dem recognize his wisdom, this country will be swallowed completely by corporate rule

When do we wake up from this tv fed fantasy....????

[WinkyDink]

25. I would, had he run as a Democrat.

[Better Believe It]

59. Democratic Party leaders like Rahm Emanuel would bury Ralph if he ran as a Democrat.

He wouldn't have a chance.

[WinkyDink]

172. I used past verb tense. :-)

[ProudDad]

305. So only "democrats" have a lock on the Truth, eh?

How provincial of you... :eyes:

[hayu_lol]

26. Who, in their right mind, cares what...

Nader turncoat has to say. How is Ralph's best buddy by the way...you know...Grover Norquist.

Ralph probably miffed that he didn't get any Repugnant money this time around.

[defendandprotect]

261. People who understand his decades long fight against corporatism, for one ....

And people who actually understand the 2000 election!!

Two clues ....

GOP-sponsored fascist rally to stop the vote counting in Miami-Dade County which was

mandated by the Florida State Supreme Court.

Supreme Court decision by Poppy Bush's Gang of 5 right wingers to put Bush in White House.


---------------------------------

Other than that re Bush's -600 vote "win" in Florida --

Subtract that from ....

300,000 "Democrats" in FLORIDA having voted for W --

600+ military ballots illegally counted for W in Florida --

Tens of thousands of votes cast for OTHER third parties in FL -- Libertarians, Socialists --

3,000 illegal butterfly ballots cast in FLORIDA for Pat Buchanan in error --

I trust you have a calculator?

Subtract 600 from any one of those figures --


Nader was scapegoated by the DLC/New Dems because they consider his truth telling a danger

to them -- and because they wouldn't face the reality of the stolen election about which

they did NOTHING!!

[WinkyDink]

23. So he's found his voice against Republicans at last.

[Canuckistanian]

24. More than a dime NOW, Nader?

You CAN teach an old dog new tricks.

[Better Believe It]

35. You confusing Nader with George Wallace from the 60's. Might want to study political history a bit

It was George Wallace that said "there isn't a dimes worth of difference" between the Republican and Democratic parties and attacked both.

[apocalypsehow]

41. That's a curious reply. Just because Wallace said it, doesn't mean Nader hasn't acted like that's

been his belief, too, and for a good deal of time now.

:shrug:

Also, why the need to say "might want to study political history a bit"? On DU anymore, is the gratuitous put-down just instinctive these days?

[Canuckistanian]

42. Hmm...

Everybody attributes it to Nader, but I can't find him actually saying it.

You're right, of course.

[WinkyDink]

49. Will "TweedleDum and TweedleDumber" do? Because I heard RN say that with my own 2 ears.

[Skidmore]

29. Oh, bite me, Ralph.

Now that you've scorched the earth and sowed it with salt so the peasants can't grow subsistence crops, you get on your concern pony and ride?

If Nader told me the sun rises in the east and rain falls from the sky, I would not accept his word for it. He blew any opportunity he had to help the nation. All he did was lob a bomb and run.

[Better Believe It]

30. Our progressive friend and truth teller Ralph Nader just nailed it!

[defendandprotect]

32. Bad news ... but DU has to hear it --- "Thank you," RALPH NADER...

for half a century or more of trying to defend the American public in every way!!

Hadn't heard about this one yet . . . !!!

Just now, they’re giving away the store to the taxpayers’ share in General Motors in the IPO that’s about to be issued.

Overall --

And they say, "Well, why aren’t the Democrats making a big deal of corporate crime against consumers and workers and issues like minimum wage and card check?" Because the Democrats don’t want to be involved in that. They’re dialing for the same corporate dollars.

They say, "Well, why aren’t the Democrats raising these great civil liberty issues, like what’s in the PATRIOT Act?" Well, they just rubber-stamped another renewal over a year ago of the PATRIOT Act.

Shameful .... Disgusting --

Plus Obama/Duncan dismantling public education ---

STILL ... WE NEED TO KNOCK OUT REPUBLICANS ....

Then we can double back to deal with these Dems!!

[apocalypsehow]

33. apocalypshow to Ralph Nader: FUCK OFF. n/t.

[glitch]

36. Ralph Nader isn't always right.

In this case especially I think he's wrong. We'll see soon enough.

[Naturyl]

40. Ralph is Right.

He usually is, but many people can't forgive him for actually trying to get the left some actual representation in 2000. I know it helped get Bush in, and that was a terrible side-effect, but he wasn't wrong to try.

[blondeatlast]

46. So sez the poster who didn't vote.

I think I'm going to copy and post that in reply every time I see one of your oh-so-valuable contributions in the future.

[Naturyl]

47. Thanks for the promise to harass me.

Should you follow through on it, this post will be here for the moderators' reference.

[readmoreoften]

113. Please do. Please harass. We'll be sure to keep track of your violations.

[dbmk]

183. He _was_ wrong to try

What representation was he trying for? Are you claiming anyone thought he had a chance of winning?

He knew the system and what his presence in the race would do to the results.

As long as the losing votes gain no representation, you _know_ you will be hurting one of the sides if you know you will lose.

Knowing this and running anyways is either evil manipulation of the system or childish beyond words. Either way its wrong.

Change the system so the losers can allocate their votes, and you would have a point.

[fascisthunter]

43. He's Right

and Democratic Party Leadership will ignore this... already people here are just calling him names, without mentioning what he saying.

[Jackpine Radical]

58. Might I point out that first little button with the little red arrow?

Right there at the bottom of the thread. It says "Alert." Some days, I get an overwhelming urge to push it.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

61. Fuck you, Ralph

I didn't see you campaigning for Russ Feingold. Eat shit.

[proteus_lives]

77. +1

[A Cooper]

64. Nader can go to hell!

He needs to STFU because if it weren't for him Bush would have never been able to steal the election. It would have been a landslide and we wouldn't be screwed up right now.

I use to like Nader but he makes me want to :puke:

[depakid]

70. Blurring the contrast between the parties is one of the reasons Dems are in this situation

No doubt about that.

[frylock]

82. word

[readmoreoften]

115. +1,000,000

[Spike from MN]

184. What?!?

You mean there are TWO parties? Damn. I should have taken a closer look at my ballot yesterday. Most races seemed to have two candidates from the Corporate Lackey party.


From the OP: "They’re dialing for the same corporate dollars."

Yep. That pretty much sums it up.

[Catherina]

342. +1 n/t

[mac56]

71. Even a blind squirrel finds an acorn once in awhile.

Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

Doesn't matter. Ralphie is still a jackass.

[kenfrequed]

74. While I do agree...

I think this is the sort of thing he should have waited a bit to say. After all there is going to be a storm of DLC'ers blaming progressives for not showing up to vote or some other such nonsense. It would have been good to have the counter point of Nader speaking truth at that point. His speaking up now is a bit less effective.

Besides what if the Repukes don't even take the house tonight?

[mistertrickster]

79. Dear Ralph. Fuck you very much. Sincerely, Real Dems Everywhere. nt

[depakid]

84. Looks like "real Dems" are having trouble distinguishing themselves

from the corporate right- and thus are staring down another 1994.

When both major parties appear to be beholden to the same corrupt influences, the choice between party A and party B ends up looking pretty much the same.

[mistertrickster]

208. And yet, oddly, the voters had no trouble picking out the R's yesterday . . . nt

[ProudDad]

306. Yep, they dumped your friends the blue-dogs

in favor of REAL republicans...

[mistertrickster]

347. You have me confused with Art-in-Ark. I HATE the bluedogs. nt

[sabrina 1]

150. This real Dem, unless you're an authority on 'real Dems'

agrees with Nader and says he was right all along. And I wish the Democratic Party had paid attention to what he was saying long ago. Had they done that, they might still be the 'party of the people'.

[mistertrickster]

207. Being right is not enough. One also has to DO what's right.

Siphoning votes in Florida for an ego-run at the Presidency was not doing what was right.

[humbled_opinion]

85. Some People Can't Handle The Truth... n/t

[bongbong]

87. Nader was a Rove dirty trick

Just like John Anderson.

Oh, for those of you who don't know that name, he was a repig who ran to the left of Carter, siphoned off 6 million votes from Carter, and promptly disappeared .0001 nanosecond after the election.

[barb162]

123. Nader was around with the same message way before Rove got power.

[bongbong]

205. Your point?

Lots of people were around with all kinds of ideas.

But when they run for office to steal votes from the Democrat they are a Rovian (or Nixonian) type plot.

[barb162]

332. The point is Nader had his ideas fully formulated before Rove

He is not some Rove puppet. ANyway I didn't see Nader running in this midterm.

[bongbong]

339. Your point?

Your point doesn't refute a single percent of my post. Lots of people have lots of ideas, but you don't see millions of people on the presidential ballot.

[defendandprotect]

262. Nader has been fighting corporatism/fascism for decades...whether Rep or Dem ...

as for 2000 --

Two clues ....

GOP-sponsored fascist rally to stop the vote counting in Miami-Dade County which was

mandated by the Florida State Supreme Court.

Supreme Court decision by Poppy Bush's Gang of 5 right wingers to put Bush in White House.


---------------------------------

Other than that re Bush's -600 vote "win" in Florida --

Subtract that from ....

300,000 "Democrats" in FLORIDA having voted for W --

600+ military ballots illegally counted for W in Florida --

Tens of thousands of votes cast for OTHER third parties in FL -- Libertarians, Socialists --

3,000 illegal butterfly ballots cast in FLORIDA for Pat Buchanan in error --

I trust you have a calculator?

Subtract 600 from any one of those figures --


Nader was scapegoated by the DLC/New Dems because they consider his truth telling a danger

to them -- and because they wouldn't face the reality of the stolen election about which

they did NOTHING!!

[bongbong]

302. Lots of explanation

Florida wasn't the only effect that Ralph "Karl sent me" Nader had. He kept pumping the meme of "there's no difference between the 2 parties", which of course only helped the repigs. As much as we at DU would like to think everybody wants Liberal solutions, the relentless pro-repig drumbeat by the MSM changes the mind of many, unfortunately weak-minded, Americans. Also, contrast his treatment by the MSM with Kuchinich's. The powers that actually run things in America (a la Carlin's monologue) wouldn't have let Nader get on the ballot if he was a real threat to anything.

All these are points prove to me, as well as many other people, that Nader was just another John Anderson.

[defendandprotect]

310. BEFORE you change the subject ... deal with FLORIDA and the less than 600 vote "win" ....

and trust you might now have some better insight into the GOP steal and how it worked?



AFTER that . . .

He kept pumping the meme of "there's no difference between the 2 parties", which of course only helped the repigs.

So, what you're saying here is that Nader -- like many Democrats -- has been criticizing the

Democratic party for being too far to the right -- i.e., too pro-corporate, too Repug-lite . . . .

but YOU conclude that that "too far to the right" criticism moved others to vote for "repigs"?

As you reread that, please notice that it makes no sense.



When Democrats here criticize Obama/Rahm pro-corporate decision -- we are saying that they

are too much like Republicans -- too far to the RIGHT.

How do you jump from that -- "too far to the right" --- to then suggesting that it somehow

encourages "repigs"?


Re the press ... we generally have 24/7 GOP propaganda running, except for Olberman, Maddow,

Schultz -- Jon Stewart. Most of us recognize that and tune out.


Also, contrast his (Nader's)treatment by the MSM with Kuchinich's. The powers that actually run things in America (a la Carlin's monologue) wouldn't have let Nader get on the ballot if he was a real threat to anything.

Loved Richard Carlin, btw, but if he encouraged you in scapegoating Nader, he was wrong.

If you recall, Kucinich wasn't treated very well -- knocked out of the debates.

HOWEVER, Nader was found so dangerous that he was almost arrested trying to MERELY SIT IN A

TV ROOM to watch the debates live! NOR was Nader permitted in the debates, of course.

And if you understand anything about the lengths both parties go to in keeping all third parties

OFF ballots in various states, you would realize how the two parties work together to do this.

In fact, the two parties worked together to put a PRIVATE corporation in charge of the debates!

Yes -- we need IRV voting -- or some system where we can choose candidates as first, second and

third choices -- but it is the two parties which are preventing that from happening.

Additionally, corporate MSM gets 80% of the campaign finance money for ads -- which means that

they favor the candidates who are the most heavily supported by corporate money -- and would not

be helpful to more liberal candidates who would likely favor reducing or elminating corporate

money in our elections.





To be more specific ....

*
crap like Obama/Rahm/Duncan attacking public education and replacing it with corporate/Charter

schools -- and crap like making back room deals with Big Pharma to protect them from Medicare

negotiation to lower prices --

and crap like back room deals with Health Care Industry to preserve PRIVATED system for them --

[bongbong]

322. asdf

I didn't conclude that Dems moving to the right, or having somebody on the national stage claim it like Nader did, would cause people to vote for repigs over Dems. Truman did. If what I said about that "makes no sense", bring it up on your Ouiji Board with Harry, one of the masters of modern political fighting. LOL

Sure we tune out the relentless MSM right-wing drumbeat, but that doesn't mean 90% of America does.

As for the bad treatment of third parties "proving" they're true Liberals, again I refer you to my original example of John Anderson, who was thrown out of the 2nd debate. Didn't stop him from running to the left of Carter and draining 6 million votes from him.

I don't know who Richard Carlin is, I was referring to George.

Going back to the Florida case, just like in the rest of the country, Nader stole votes from Gore. And with Nader's great drive to be president, he must've done all kinds of stuff after 2000 to keep up the public pressure against right-wing-ism, right? Nope, he disappeared just like John Anderson did.

It would be nice to have a system that has more than 2 parties, but America doesn't - it's too focused on the tribal/team allegiance model of "our side won, your side lost YAHOO!". That isn't changing anytime soon, and will actually get worse as education gets worse here. Until some major change happens, 3rd parties just drain votes from one of the two major parties. I don't see that change ever happening, at least not before America becomes another sub-corporation of China Inc.

The stealing-votes thesis is given more proof by the teabagger's failure yesterday. If not for Christine O'scammel in Delaware & Nutjob Angle in Nevada, the Senate would be in repig hands right now.

[defendandprotect]

337. So still don't get your comment re "repigs" ....

Meanwhile, regularly you can see posts on DU where X = criticism of Obama or Dems =

Y = voting for Repugs. It's ridiculous, but you can read that almost every day here.

Certainly, anyone who understands what is going on isn't watching corporate-news --

but I doubt, either, that 90% of America is watching O'Reilly or Faux News.

As for the bad treatment of third parties "proving" they're true Liberals, again I refer you to my original example of John Anderson, who was thrown out of the 2nd debate. Didn't stop him from running to the left of Carter and draining 6 million votes from him.

Perhaps you also remember Ross Perot who ran in '92 -- Bill Clinton vs Bush I--?

Obviously Perot who took 19% of the vote did hurt Bush. Think Bill won with something less

than 40% of the vote and Repugs wanted to challenge that. 19% of the vote is a much different

story than what happened in 2000. In other words, Perot took votes equal to 50% of Clinton's

total votes!


Going back to the Florida case, just like in the rest of the country, Nader stole votes from Gore. And with Nader's great drive to be president, he must've done all kinds of stuff after 2000 to keep up the public pressure against right-wing-ism, right? Nope, he disappeared just like John Anderson did.

Why not say that Libertarians stole votes from Gore? Or that Buchanan stole votes from Gore?

With a 600 vote "win" any one of those -- or illegal ballots counted for Bush -- would have

changed the outcome. Amazing what lengths you'll go to in order to avoid seeing that the

Supremes stole votes from Gore?


Nader has been active his entire life and in every way to fight corporatism and the damage

it has done to the nation -- and he hasn't stopped.


We agree we need IRV voting -- I don't agree that we should ban all third parties until we

get it!




Yes, GEORGE Carlin --

[bongbong]

343. asdf 2

It might be news to you, but not just Fox is the corporate media. All media is now, including NPR. For example, they actually give Pantload airtime.

Your point about Clinton proves nothing. Although I take the phrase "Clinton was the best republican president since Nixon" with a grain of salt, it is kinda true.

Libertarians didn't steal votes from Gore since Gore voters probably didn't care for the Libertarian platform. Duh.

I don't disagree the SCOTUS was the group that really screwed the pooch.

You keep talking about "600 votes", but if Nader didn't run Gore would've won by thousands or tens of thousands in Florida. It's really impossible to dispute that simple fact unless you really distort reality.

Tell me something concrete that Nader has done in the last 10 years. If he had really been interested in changing things he could've run for Congress. Hell, he could've run for dog catcher. Nope, none of those jobs interested him. I wonder why...? LOL

Nader was just another John Anderson. Not another Perot - another John Anderson.

[defendandprotect]

345. NPR has long been gone -- 20 years I'd say....

but my BS meter seems to be set waaaay higher than many here at DU --

I mentioned Faux News and O'Reilly .... as the rw extremes --

Agree with you on Clinton, as well -- and he overturned 60 years of Welfare Guarantees with

a nod from Al Gore.

ANY third party could just as easily in this inane conversation to be said to have "stolen

votes from Gore" and/or caused Bush to win. That's the gist of what I'm saying to you.


I don't disagree the SCOTUS was the group that really screwed the pooch.

BINGO -- !!

You keep talking about "600 votes", but if Nader didn't run Gore would've won by thousands or tens of thousands in Florida. It's really impossible to dispute that simple fact unless you really distort reality.

NO -- the alleged "win" by W was by 500-some votes -- something less than 600.

IF the 600+ "illegal" ballots counted for W had NOT been counted for W, then Gore would

have won in Florida in real time -- and in fact, he actually did win in Florida.




Tell me something concrete that Nader has done in the last 10 years. If he had really been interested in changing things he could've run for Congress. Hell, he could've run for dog catcher. Nope, none of those jobs interested him. I wonder why...? LOL

First, as many have noted CHANGE is more frequently created from OUTSIDE OF CONGRESS ....

Congress simply reacts to pressure from public ... at least until wealthy/elites bought most of

government. For one example, the Civil Rights movement to end Segregation, Inc. began outside

of Congress. Women's movement begun by Betty Friedan/The Feminine Mystique begun outside of

Congress. Movement for homosexual rights begun outside of Congress.

Here's a view into what the Youth Revolution in 1960's actually stood for ...


"I realized that in this country we had a revolution--of housing, food, hair style, clothing, cosmetics, transportation, value systems, religion--it was an economic revolution, affecting the cosmetics industry, canned foods, the use of land; people were delivering their own babies, recycling old clothes, withdrawing from spectator sports. They were breaking the barriers where white and black could rap in 1967. This was the year of the Beatles, the summer of Sergeant Pepper, the Monterey Pop Festival, Haight-Ashbury, make your own candle and turn off the electricity, turn on with your friends and laugh--that's what life was all about."

That's by Mae Brussel.
http://maebrussell.com/Mae%20Brussell%20Articles/Mae%20Brussell%20Articles.html

That period wasn't simply a "sexual" revolution -- it was a powerful challenge to authority --

patriarchal authority. In fact, by the 1980's, the GOP gave start-up funding for the Christian

Coalition in order to shore up organized patriarchal religious authority. Richard Scaife also

financed Dobson's org and other wealthy Repugs financed Bauer's org.

Again -- it was an overall challenge to the hierarchal authority/systems by which we are

controlled.


As for NADER .... The political groups he began are still going strong -- Public Citizen and

Common Cause -- has always been concerned with health, safety, traffic issue --lobbies still

for regulation of corporations on many issues. Nader was influential in establishing Freedom of

Information Act, OSHA, Consumer Product Safety Commission, EPA. Also US Public Interest Research

Group/umbrella org forother public interest research groups. Always involved in issue of

government openness and in establishing Sunshine Laws. Is a lawyer and has always been involved

in issues of justice. Has always been involved in concern for mines and mine workers, safety in

mines. Control of oil and gas pipes dangerous to people and environment.

JUSTICE for Native Americans. Still involved I presume in all these interests, including

food safety -- Still gives speeches -- and writes articles for publication. Think I read he

was also shaping up his own hometown in Connecticut in the sense of "public citizen" efforts.


So -- what have you been doing?

:)

Night!

[bongbong]

348. asdf 3

Responding in reverse order - I don't need a lesson in Liberal history. I wanna see what Nader has done in the last 10 years. I'm well aware of Public Citizen, I used to send them dough. But they disavowed Nader, especially after 2000, and he hasn't had any official involvement with them since 1980 anyways. So you're about 30 years out of date on that one.

Common Cause has had no involvement by Nader - EVER. Big fail on that one! And in fact everything that you listed as something he did in the last 10 years has absolutely nothing to do with him!!!

Do you actually know about Nader or are you just an apologist for him?

Sorry, until I see more veracity in your replies I'll have to assume you're some kind of troll. Buh-buh.

[defendandprotect]

349. Yes ... Supreme Court put W in the White House in 2000 -- nothing to do with Nader ---

Apologies if information offends you --

and for Common Cause -- there's another organization I was thinking of and got it wrong.

However, of course, Nader has CONTINUING interests in all of these subjects and organizations

working on these issue!

Non-profit organizations
Throughout his career, Nader has started or inspired a variety of nonprofit organizations, most of which he has maintained close associations with:

Citizen Advocacy Center
Citizens Utility Boards
Congress Accountability Project
Consumer Task Force For Automotive Issues
Corporate Accountability Research Project
Disability Rights Center
Equal Justice Foundation
Foundation for Taxpayers and Consumer Rights
Georgia Legal Watch
National Citizens' Coalition for Nursing Home Reform
National Coalition for Universities in the Public Interest
Pension Rights Center
PROD (truck safety)
Retired Professionals Action Group
The Shafeek Nader Trust for the Community Interest
1969: Center for the Study of Responsive Law
1970s: Public Interest Research Groups
1970: Center for Auto Safety
1970: Connecticut Citizen Action Group
1971: Aviation Consumer Action Project
1972: Clean Water Action Project
1972: Center for Women's Policy Studies
1973: Capitol Hill News Service
1980: Multinational Monitor (magazine covering multinational corporations)
1982: Trial Lawyers for Public Justice
1982: Essential Information (encourage citizen activism and do investigative journalism)
1983: Telecommunications Research and Action Center
1983: National Coalition for Universities in the Public Interest
1988: Taxpayer Assets Project
1989: Princeton Project 55 (alumni public service)
1993: Appleseed Foundation (local change)
1994: Resource Consumption Alliance (conserve trees)
1995: Center for Insurance Research
1995: Consumer Project on Technology
1997?: Government Purchasing Project (encourage purchase of safe products)
1998: Center for Justice and Democracy
1998: Organization for Competitive Markets
1998: American Antitrust Institute (ensure fair competition)
1998: Commercial Alert (protect family, community, and democracy from corporations)
1999: Arizona Center for Law in the Public Interest
2000: Congressional Accountability Project (fight corruption in Congress)
2001: Citizen Works (promote NGO cooperation, build grassroots support, and start new groups)
2001: Democracy Rising (hold rallies to educate and empower citizens)


In 1980, Nader resigned as director of Public Citizen to work on other projects, forcefully campaigning against what he believed to be the dangers of large multinational corporations.



Hundreds of young activists, inspired by Nader's work, came to DC to help him with other projects. They came to be known as "Nader's Raiders" and, under Nader, investigated government corruption, publishing dozens of books with their results:

Nader's Raiders (Federal Trade Commission)
Vanishing Air (National Air Pollution Control Administration)
The Chemical Feast (Food and Drug Administration)
The Interstate Commerce Omission (Interstate Commerce Commission)
Old Age (nursing homes)
The Water Lords (water pollution)
Who Runs Congress? (Congress)
Whistle Blowing (punishment of whistle blowers)
The Big Boys (corporate executives)
Collision Course (Federal Aviation Administration)
No Contest (corporate lawyers)
Destroy the Forest (Destruction of ecosystems worldwide)
Operation: Nuclear (Making of a nuclear missile)


In the 1970s and 1980s Nader was a key leader in the antinuclear power movement. "By 1976, consumer advocate Ralph Nader, who later became allied with the environmental movement, 'stood as the titular head of opposition to nuclear energy'"<18><19> He advocates the complete elimination of nuclear energy in favor of solar, tidal, wind and geothermal, citing environmental, worker safety, migrant labor, national security, disaster preparedness, foreign policy, government accountability and democratic governance issues to bolster his position.<20>


Will be anxious to hear what you've been doing in last 10 years --

but one thing has happened in last few days ....

You now understand the Supreme Court put W in the White House!!

Bingo!

:)

[bongbong]

350. asdf 4

Your laundry list of organizations, of course, still doesn't answer my question about Nader's last 10 years. And further, of course, asking me what I've done in the last 10 years has even less to do with answering my question.

You're an entertaining troll.

[Ratty]

88. I used to be a Nader hater

But the dilemma: vote for what you truly believe in or hold your nose and vote for what you think might win just doesn't seem so cut and dried to me after 2 years.

[Capitalocracy]

96. It's a real dilemma, not something to hate people over

Seriously. And while I agree that in such dire times it may not be the best thing to do to vote third party, we have yet to come up with a good alternative mechanism to put pressure on the Democratic Party establishment. This is something we should be seriously discussing, not screaming at eachother about.

[eilen]

188. Honestly, the Democratic Party seems incapable of learning

from experience. Nader wasn't the first guy to run 3rd party and get a bunch of votes. Remember Ross Perot? Well, guess what-- The Republicans learned and when the Tea Party started getting legs, they leveraged a buyout. They invested in them, publicly supported them and those that didn't lost office. They co-opted the TP's enthusiasm for the stupid. Just like the Southern Strategy.

The Democrats throw success out the window-- see former DNC chairman Dean out there? Wave hi and form the words "We miss you."

I sure hope we are not going to continue to keep asking the Republicans to the prom and keep looking the other way for the next two years. (Another big fucking waste of time and political capital).

[defendandprotect]

264. Nader is a danger to both corporate parties ... that's why he was scapegoated .....

Re 2000 --

Two clues ....

GOP-sponsored fascist rally to stop the vote counting in Miami-Dade County which was

mandated by the Florida State Supreme Court.

Supreme Court decision by Poppy Bush's Gang of 5 right wingers to put Bush in White House.


---------------------------------

Other than that re Bush's -600 vote "win" in Florida --

Subtract that from ....


300,000 "Democrats" in FLORIDA having voted for W --

600+ military ballots illegally counted for W in Florida --

Tens of thousands of votes cast for OTHER third parties in FL -- Libertarians, Socialists --

3,000 illegal butterfly ballots cast in FLORIDA for Pat Buchanan in error --

I trust you have a calculator?

Subtract 600 from any one of those figures --


Nader was scapegoated by the DLC/New Dems because they consider his truth telling a danger

to them -- and because they wouldn't face the reality of the stolen election about which

they did NOTHING!!

[Marr]

89. You people know there's an element of truth in his comments. That's why

so many here froth at the mouth whenever Nader opens his. Seriously-- if I can borrow one of those "centrist" arguments-- why don't you reserve your anger for the Republicans?

[WinkyDink]

173. Ummm...my anger is not a finite quantity. BTW: Is Nader a Democrat? No? So I am not breaking a DU

rule if I criticize him?

This isn't a Green Party board, right? Oh, wait; Nader didn't join the Green Party.

[Arkana]

90. Thanks for all your help, you bloated, egotistical gasbag!

Don't you have to go stare at your reflection in a mirror for a while?

[defendandprotect]

266. Supreme Court put Bush in White House ... not Nader --

Two clues ....

GOP-sponsored fascist rally to stop the vote counting in Miami-Dade County which was

mandated by the Florida State Supreme Court.

Supreme Court decision by Poppy Bush's Gang of 5 right wingers to put Bush in White House.


---------------------------------

Other than that re Bush's -600 vote "win" in Florida --

Subtract that from ....

300,000 "Democrats" in FLORIDA having voted for W --

600+ military ballots illegally counted for W in Florida --

Tens of thousands of votes cast for OTHER third parties in FL -- Libertarians, Socialists --

3,000 illegal butterfly ballots cast in FLORIDA for Pat Buchanan in error --

I trust you have a calculator?

Subtract 600 from any one of those figures --


Nader was scapegoated by the DLC/New Dems because they consider his truth telling a danger

to them -- and because they wouldn't face the reality of the stolen election about which

they did NOTHING!!

[ibegurpard]

94. can't blame this one on Nader

he's been pretty quiet lately

[KossackRealityCheck]

95. Nader and Goodman STILL saying vote 3rd party

I listened to the interview and although not as brazenly stupid as they both were in 2000, it was a thinly disguised exhortation to NOT VOTE DEMOCRATIC party line.

Goodman kept asking how should people vote and Nader kept saying they should vote their "conscience" like Green.

Goodman was one of Nader's biggest fan in 2000, pushing the line that Bush and Gore were the same.

They have the gall to get on the air today and in their fake question and answer interview to push the idea that Pacifica listeners should not vote D, but Green?

Fuck them.

[trukdivad]

97. There's no way to invent another party

In 10, 20, 50 years... Even the teabaggers are running as Rethuglicans. This House is going to be a mess. I predict shoe-throwing.

[Historic NY]

102. Hey Ralph thanks for making this night possible......

STFU.

[Marr]

105. How in the hell did Ralph Nader make this possible?

I mean really, I've grown accustomed to hearing him blamed for Bush, but I think that excuse has pretty much worn itself out by now. The current Democratic leadership made this night possible, by playing too much footsy with Wall Street, and just generally operating like Rahm Emmanuel Democrats. They employed a losing strategy, but nevertheless, I fully expect every Democrat on television to interpret this evening as proof that the party needs to move to the right. Just like last time.

[Raine]

104. Thanks Nader for starting the old ball rolling

you did your part. :sarcasm:

[The Gunslinger]

107. Wish I could say he was wrong.

[herbm]

108. Strange talk from a third party candidate who split the progressive vote.

Is he calling the folks who voted for him fools?

[defendandprotect]

267. Perhaps you should re read the article ....

and rethink 2000 --

Two clues ....

GOP-sponsored fascist rally to stop the vote counting in Miami-Dade County which was

mandated by the Florida State Supreme Court.

Supreme Court decision by Poppy Bush's Gang of 5 right wingers to put Bush in White House.


---------------------------------

Other than that re Bush's -600 vote "win" in Florida --

Subtract that from ....

300,000 "Democrats" in FLORIDA having voted for W --

600+ military ballots illegally counted for W in Florida --

Tens of thousands of votes cast for OTHER third parties in FL -- Libertarians, Socialists --

3,000 illegal butterfly ballots cast in FLORIDA for Pat Buchanan in error --

I trust you have a calculator?

Subtract 600 from any one of those figures --


Nader was scapegoated by the DLC/New Dems because they consider his truth telling a danger

to them -- and because they wouldn't face the reality of the stolen election about which

they did NOTHING!!

[herbm]

110. Strange talk from a third party candidate who split the progressive vote.

Is he calling the folks who voted for him suckers?

[travelingtypist]

111. STFU, Ralph.

Cop to what you did in 2000 or just S.T.F.U.

[ShamelessHussy]

117. He is right, so he will be vilified... we OWN this loss BUT

NO ONE in corporate america takes RESPONSIBILITY any more, especially politicians.

[defendandprotect]

268. +1000% --

[glinda]

120. thanks Ralph for Bushco

[bertman]

121. You nailed it, Ralph. But you're yelling into the abyss. Still, I thank you. Rec.

[rtassi]

124. Rec.

[defendandprotect]

269. K&R -- Oh, they hear it .... and that's why they're so furious with Nader and criticism of Dems....!

[still_one]

122. I will exercise my first ammendment rights. Fuck Ralph Nader, and yes I believe he contributed to

what happened in 2000, and facilitate where we are today

[digidigido]

129. those who deny it are idiots or teabaggers, oh, that's redundent

[defendandprotect]

270. Gore won 2000, including in Florida .... you're passing the point of

willful ignorance --



Two clues ....

GOP-sponsored fascist rally to stop the vote counting in Miami-Dade County which was

mandated by the Florida State Supreme Court.

Supreme Court decision by Poppy Bush's Gang of 5 right wingers to put Bush in White House.


---------------------------------

Other than that re Bush's -600 vote "win" in Florida --

Subtract that from ....

300,000 "Democrats" in FLORIDA having voted for W --

600+ military ballots illegally counted for W in Florida --

Tens of thousands of votes cast for OTHER third parties in FL -- Libertarians, Socialists --

3,000 illegal butterfly ballots cast in FLORIDA for Pat Buchanan in error --

I trust you have a calculator?

Subtract 600 from any one of those figures --


Nader was scapegoated by the DLC/New Dems because they consider his truth telling a danger

to them -- and because they wouldn't face the reality of the stolen election about which

they did NOTHING!!

[inna]

127. K&R +86

Geez, some absolutely sickening comments in this thread.

[MisterP]

130. Naderbaiters are like Baggers--except that they should know better nt

[defendandprotect]

271. Think most of them do know better re 2000, but their main thrust is to try

to create animosity here for Nader because he criticizes Democrats!!

And that was the original reason for the DLC/New Dems' scapegoating Nader for

2000 -- for the corporate Dems Nader is the "enemy" -- !!!


:evilgrin:

[RadicalTexan]

131. He's right and he's always been right.

If you disagree, you are as hopeless as the Tea Party crowd.

$0.02

[stormpilot]

133. I agree with Nader

Although I know he's not very popular with some people in here and they're po'd that he's saying anything at all and probably not at the right time either, I can't say I disagree with anything he's saying in this interview. I haven't really had any strong negative opinions of Nader mainly because I've admired his lifelong activism, especially where the environment is concerned.

[defendandprotect]

274. Nader has been dedicated to beating corporatism whether Rep or Dem.....

and for that reason a few here would like to creat animosity for him --

[bottomofthehill]

134. once again thank you for President Bush

you self serving asshole. There are the same Republicans you funded your campaign efforts with to deny Al Gore the Presidency so spare me

[sabrina 1]

151. Another nonsensical statement about the theft of the 2000 election.

How could Nader be responsible for Bush 'winning' when Bush LOST? Explain that please.

[WinkyDink]

174. How do you think Florida was even close enough to steal?

[sabrina 1]

187. For the same reason that many elections are close enough to steal

Many Florida Dems didn't vote for the Democrat, enough to make it close actually.

Why do you think that all those who voted for Nader would have voted for Gore if Nader wasn't in the race? Those votes were lost regardless.

Gore won the election. It was stolen by the SC and that is really all there is to it. Except that Democrats let it go when they should have pursued it relentlessly. Instead, they did what they always do, they 'moved on'.

[Jim_Shorts]

228. The Supreme Court decided Florida

If you guys can't even listen to a persons words and decide if they have merit because of something that happened in the past than your not really thinking, your just reacting because of the chip thats already on your shoulder. Even if a repub says something that makes sense I will take it with a grain of salt, but I won't launch into a full out assault.

I will seek out new ideas and the TRUTH where ever I can find it.

[defendandprotect]

275. Bush "won" in Florida by less than 600 votes ...

If you try don't understand the 2000 election, start here ---


Two clues ....

GOP-sponsored fascist rally to stop the vote counting in Miami-Dade County which was

mandated by the Florida State Supreme Court.

Supreme Court decision by Poppy Bush's Gang of 5 right wingers to put Bush in White House.


---------------------------------

Other than that re Bush's -600 vote "win" in Florida --

Subtract that from ....

300,000 "Democrats" in FLORIDA having voted for W --

600+ military ballots illegally counted for W in Florida --

Tens of thousands of votes cast for OTHER third parties in FL -- Libertarians, Socialists --

3,000 illegal butterfly ballots cast in FLORIDA for Pat Buchanan in error --

I trust you have a calculator?

Subtract 600 from any one of those figures --


Nader was scapegoated by the DLC/New Dems because they consider his truth telling a danger

to them -- and because they wouldn't face the reality of the stolen election about which

they did NOTHING!!

[upi402]

140. People hate it when it turns out he was right

ha

QQ if ya want... but stop supporting no opposition party politics

[defendandprotect]

276. And, boy has Nader been right ... been warning us about corporatism/fascism for decades!!

[Umbral]

147. Ahh, Ralph, Cassandra of our time. But you're welcome to put out your eyes if you disagree.

Fools.

[bowens43]

160. says the man who gave us 8 years of bush.....

Fuck you Nader. Crawl back in your hole you ignorant scum bag.

[Catherina]

161. Rec'd n/t

[Le Taz Hot]

170. Ralph is correct.

The Democrats ARE complicit. K & R

[WinkyDink]

176. Nader RAN AGAINST GORE. This is DU. We here do NOT have to speak or think favorably of him.

Is there not some Nader board his fans can post on?

[depakid]

185. You might consider listening to honest and accurate analysis wherever you find it

That's generally a prescription for avoiding outcomes like this one.

[WinkyDink]

195. Oh, nice condescension.

[defendandprotect]

278. And we call the T-baggers "ignorant" ...

Rather than just trying to gin up animosity for Nader because he says things about

Dems you don't want to hear, try to face up to reality --

You can start here --



Two clues ....

GOP-sponsored fascist rally to stop the vote counting in Miami-Dade County which was

mandated by the Florida State Supreme Court.

Supreme Court decision by Poppy Bush's Gang of 5 right wingers to put Bush in White House.


---------------------------------

Other than that re Bush's -600 vote "win" in Florida --

Subtract that from ....

300,000 "Democrats" in FLORIDA having voted for W --

600+ military ballots illegally counted for W in Florida --

Tens of thousands of votes cast for OTHER third parties in FL -- Libertarians, Socialists --

3,000 illegal butterfly ballots cast in FLORIDA for Pat Buchanan in error --

I trust you have a calculator?

Subtract 600 from any one of those figures --


Nader was scapegoated by the DLC/New Dems because they consider his truth telling a danger

to them -- and because they wouldn't face the reality of the stolen election about which

they did NOTHING!!

[The Uncola]

177. I had serious issues with ..

.. some of the shit Nader has done, but he's dead right about this one. There's very little difference between the DLC and the RNC. Both are corporate whores.

[Zoeisright]

189. Fuck you, Nader.

YOU are part of the problem, you asshole. You took repuke money to run.

[h9socialist]

193. From the guy who made George W. Bush possible . . .

. . . I really have no time for his worthless bullcrap.

[dotymed]

196. All of these negative comments about Nader...

At least he is telling the truth. If he had won in 2000 (Bush DID NOT BTW), America would be much better off. I did not vote for him but I wish I had.
HE was my hero as a child. I remember him fighting the corporations on behalf of the common man.
Thank you Mr. Nader.

[defendandprotect]

279. Agree ...

and Americans have long respected and admired Nader --

That's why it worked so well for DLC/New Dems to scapegoat Nader for 2000!!

As far as they're concerned, Nader is the "enemy" -- !!

[Nihil]

197. There are two ways to view the quotes in the OP:

If you are a Nader-phile: 'He was speaking the truth ("again")'.

If you are a Nader-phobe: 'Even a stopped clock is right twice a day'.


Why the pointless hatred of the person rather than the acceptance that
his points (as quoted in the OP) are valid (grudgingly if necessary)?
:shrug:


(Yes, I suppose that there may be a third way for those that are Nader-agnostic
but that seems to be such a rare category around here that I didn't think it
worthwhile covering.)

[MilesColtrane]

254. Nader's analysis is correct.

But, his solutions not only don't work, they are incredibly destructive and leave this country and its people worse off than they were.

[defendandprotect]

280. For the same reason DLC/New Dems scapegoated Nader for 2000 ....

because they consider Nader the "enemy" -- because he has fought the buying of

government and elected officials for decades -- whether in the Repug Party or the

Dem Party!!

Same ole crap here ... those who can't handle criticism of Dems because they really

can't face the reality of it!

[onehandle]

200. STFU. And thanks for Bush. nt

[snot]

201. K&R'd

Although I happen to believe Dem pols' near-total neglect of election reform, campaign finance reform, and media reform are at least equally critical factors.

[mistertrickster]

203. Gee, Ralph. Why don't you run as a Democrat somewhere?

Why? Because that would be hard work.

It's a lot easier to run for President and play the spoiler in a two party system.

Asshat.

[fascisthunter]

210. this thread exhibits part of the problem in this Party

grow up folks... listen to the truth because it only gets worse when you don't listen. If ya hate the man fine, but take a moment to think about what he is saying.

[defendandprotect]

281. +1000% --

[M_A]

212. Ralph is correct

The current crop of Dems are solely responsible for the loses both this election and also those in the recent past, including 2000. There are many Dems who vote third (liberal) party (myself included) and have done so since before 2000. I can safely say that if we had wanted to vote for Gore we would have, we voted to support the candidates who were liberal enough to represent our views. If the Democratic party wants to gather the liberal strays they need to give us candidates we see as liberal enough to deserve our vote. This Democratic voter voted for McKinney in '08 and would do so again in a heartbeat. I detest the centerist trend of what used to be the great liberal party of America.

Blame the SCOTUS for Bush, they are the ones who stopped the count.

[pberq]

226. +1000

[Jennifer Stream]

219. Prosecution of war criminals

One of the tragedies of the Obama admin. was in their turning a blind eye to the war crimes of Bush and Cheney. This proved that Obama would not stand up for the rule of international law and I think it also hurts the Dems politically.

If these prosecutions had moved forward it would have been disastrous for the Republican party IMHO and would've put on full display the craven nature of the Repubs. We always got, "Well if we did that then it would be a distraction and we couldn't do the national business" or some such tripe. Now look where we are.

[defendandprotect]

282. Agree -- and a serious failure ....

especially disappointing to hear that Obama -- who once taught Constitution --

"found no reason for impeachment of Bush" -- !!!

[The Stranger]

225. Sickening, sickening the Nader haters. So misled for so long.

How they hurt us.

How they hurt us.

[AnArmyVeteran]

229. They attack Nader even though he's the only one who is a real high profile progressive.

[WinkyDink]

231. I'd like him to join my Party.

[AnArmyVeteran]

234. But then he would have to sell out his values.

[Selatius]

243. And that's a reflection of how bad our party has become more than it is a reflection on Nader. nt

[AnArmyVeteran]

244. I absolutely agree.

[WinkyDink]

263. Has Kucinich?

[defendandprotect]

285. Yes -- we all understand that -- in order to exist as a Democrat Kucinich cannot

be faithful to his own principles -- I'm sure he'd acknowledge that for you.

But we also understand how valuable Kucinich is within the party because he

also will tell the truth about what's going on --

Information is power --


Also I'd caution you about having absolute confidence in CHANGE coming from

government itself -- as Howard Zinn has so often pointed out and shown us ....

CHANGE rarely comes from within government. Even in the case of FDR, the

programs he put in place were developed and pushed for outside of government.

[defendandprotect]

284. +1000%

[defendandprotect]

283. Do you realize you're in a party which is pro-corporate? And moving more to the right?

Nader's life has been about fighting corporatism/fascism --

and government corruption --

If you're opposed to that, then -- right -- you should be anti-Nader!!


Otherwise, start rethinking things ....

Like why DLC/New Dems think they exist to support corporate power and think

Nader is the enemy!

[jeffrey_X]

321. Thank you. Agree 100%

eom

[BrklynLiberal]

233. Did Nader do much to prevent this??? Does he live in a cave except during November of election yrs?

[defendandprotect]

287. Obviously, your comments are based on very little knowledge of Nader ....

and his decades long fight against corporatism/fascism in both parties?

And if you also don't understand 2000 GOP steal ... start here --


Two clues ....

GOP-sponsored fascist rally to stop the vote counting in Miami-Dade County which was

mandated by the Florida State Supreme Court.

Supreme Court decision by Poppy Bush's Gang of 5 right wingers to put Bush in White House.


---------------------------------

Other than that re Bush's -600 vote "win" in Florida --

Subtract that from ....

300,000 "Democrats" in FLORIDA having voted for W --

600+ military ballots illegally counted for W in Florida --

Tens of thousands of votes cast for OTHER third parties in FL -- Libertarians, Socialists --

3,000 illegal butterfly ballots cast in FLORIDA for Pat Buchanan in error --

I trust you have a calculator?

Subtract 600 from any one of those figures --


Nader was scapegoated by the DLC/New Dems because they consider his truth telling a danger

to them -- and because they wouldn't face the reality of the stolen election about which

they did NOTHING!!

[suzie]

318. You want to make the argument that Nader fights against fascism?

And yet, he's been a lawyer dealing with Federal Courts all his working life, but it never occurred to him that Bush appointed SCOTUS justices would be worse than Gore appointed ones?

It sort of undercuts your constant argument about Nader--was he just too stupid to remember that SCOTUS appointments--and the rest of the federal judiciary--get made by the President?

You can't constantly tell us that it was all about the SCOTUS and not Nader, and then act as if Nader magically didn't know that the SCOTUS was important to consider during an election.

[BrklynLiberal]

346. ...

:thumbsup:

The man has become pathetic...and not in a sad way.

[bvar22]

235. Nailed It!

Many won't want to hear this TRUTH.

[Owl]

247. Well, ain't Ralphie a little genius and all.

[Laelth]

272. Nader's message is right, even if I have little love for the messenger.

Shooting this messenger (again) can not save the Democratic Party from its complicity in our ever-more-fascist state.

-Laelth

[defendandprotect]

288. Nader has for decades fought corporatism/fascism ... why would you

have animosity for Nader?

If it's 2000, then I think you should rethink it --



Two clues ....

GOP-sponsored fascist rally to stop the vote counting in Miami-Dade County which was

mandated by the Florida State Supreme Court.

Supreme Court decision by Poppy Bush's Gang of 5 right wingers to put Bush in White House.


---------------------------------

Other than that re Bush's -600 vote "win" in Florida --

Subtract that from ....

300,000 "Democrats" in FLORIDA having voted for W --

600+ military ballots illegally counted for W in Florida --

Tens of thousands of votes cast for OTHER third parties in FL -- Libertarians, Socialists --

3,000 illegal butterfly ballots cast in FLORIDA for Pat Buchanan in error --

I trust you have a calculator?

Subtract 600 from any one of those figures --


Nader was scapegoated by the DLC/New Dems because they consider his truth telling a danger

to them -- and because they wouldn't face the reality of the stolen election about which

they did NOTHING!!

[rainy]

286. Thanks for posting!!! Nice analysis.

[defendandprotect]

289. Thanks for posting this -- I didn't get to tune in yesterday ... wish I had -- !!

:)

[Enthusiast]

290. Ralph is exactly correct.

This is why so many of us have been so disturbed by President Obama and the inaction of the Democrats we elected in 2006 and 2008. The country was in crisis from the very moment we got a majority legislature and the presidency yet the direction of the country, and the country's subservience to corporations, didn't change at all.

[Smarmie Doofus]

291. Rec. Not exactly crazy talk. nt

[Smarmie Doofus]

292. Rec. Not exactly crazy talk. nt

[Bryn]

303. Discussion in this thread should be about what Ralph said, not about

Bush winning in 2000. It's over & done with. Pay attention what Ralph is saying because it's true. Arguing about what happened in the past is NOT going to help anyone today. This country is in serious trouble because we're being ruled by the Corporate/Super rich/elites.

K&R

[Name removed]

304. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Stuart G]

307. I don't like people quoting Nader on almost anything.

..I respected him before 2000. He was used and was a user. There are many of those. In this case, it resulted in thousands of deaths.
Without his ambition and ego in 2000, many would be alive that are dead. Thats it.

[ProudDad]

309. Kick +10,000

Why should people vote for republican-lite when they can get the real thing...?

[upi402]

319. Funny to see party hacks now admitting Ralph was right ...

after it's too damn late.

I guess he was too hip for the crowd - at least the crowd that wasn't at the trough or sociopaths.

[WizardLeft62]

351. Ralph Nader is Spot-On!!!!!!

Ralph Nader is correct about these right-wing loons and other matters.

[WizardLeft62]

353. And yes, Very Craven and Evil GOP Batards

are still bent on total destruction of America's social, political and economic order led by the evil Karl Rove who wants to bring the nation back to the Guilded Age.