I see a problem...and it is the biggest in American politics

[ProdigalJunkMail]

and the problem is simple and leads to the huge gulf between the parties. I see it on the left and I see it on the right. It is the belief that the other side is 'stupid'. Until both sides realize that people are (on the whole) not voting the way they are because of stupidity there really be no constructive political discourse. Calling them stupid and wanting them to listen to your ideas and learn from them or accept them is disconnected from logic...how could they ever come to your side if they are 'stupid'?

Believe that the other side is stupid at your own peril...

sP

[WinkyDink]

1. Stupid is as stupid does. When the opponent pushes lies as truth, there is no middle.

Your post just shows "the big problem": Thinking there is a way for Democrats to treat reasonably the absurdities, the villainies, the lies, of the DELIBERATELY DECEITFUL Republicans.

Maybe you think there is some common ground with a Party that smears John Kerry as a coward; paints Dukakis as a fan of paroling murderers; pushes the idea that Obama is a foreign-born Muslim; approves of torture; begins illegal invasions and killings; claims Social Security is bankrupt or close to it; has worked since the 40's to eliminate the Minimum Wage; hates protecting workers' health and safety; hates protecting citizens' health with food inspections; etc., etc.

You think we should FIND COMMON GROUND OR NOT THINK ANYONE WHO SUPPORTS THESE STANCES IS STUPID?
SORRY. No Can Do.

Wait; I will forego "stupid" if I can substitute "EVIL."

[Wednesdays]

42. A lie is NOT the "other side of the story." It's just a lie.

nt

[DrDan]

2. exactly

look at the posts here that degraded and demeaned Rand Paul . . . I mean Senator Paul

[ixion]

3. nothing will get done until

we stop shouting insults at one another, start working together, and letting each other live and let live.

Unfortunately, that's not likely to happen. :(

[ProdigalJunkMail]

6. unfortunately, I have agree with you on that point

It is not unfortunate to agree with you...just the point...sad.

sP

[Catherina]

4. Rec'd n/t

[whyverne]

5. Oh, I'm sorry, did I offend voters who believe lying bastards

who blame the problems they caused on someone else?

[ProdigalJunkMail]

evidence to the point...thanks. n/t

[JI7]

7. actually, a lot of Republicans hate Democrats because they are seen as intelligent

in 2000 i remember a woman was interviewed and she said she was offended by Gore's Knowledge. she wanted someone ignorant like bush.

and Democrats didn't support ALvin Greene.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

9. pick any adjective you like

I picked stupid because it seems to be bandied-about the most. When some trait of the other, not their politics, is the argument you are using to dispute their ideas you have already lost. It is why most people HATE the negative/attack campaign ads. Go after their ideas and you stand a chance...go after the person and you alienate large chunks of the population and stand no chance of converting anyone.

Shouldn't we try to convert people with ideas and not belittle them with insults?

sP

[kath]

61. the thing is, "convert people with ideas" doesn't work with most of them on the other side.

Because they're stupid.

[KG]

8. there is no huge gulf between the 'parties'. that is the problem.

the gulf exists between the voters. that is a different problem.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

10. calling people stupid is easier than admitting maybe they aren't that into you

For all the talk by some of Americans having "battered wife syndrome" (accompanied by uneasy undertones that maybe they had it coming) maybe what these people need to describe is their stalker mentality.

They expect to be loved and when they aren't they demand to be loved but the nasty, abusive behavior on their part makes them unlovable. That just aggravates the cycle.

If you scream at people with the worst names how do you expect them to come back to you and want to be with you? If they really were as bad as you say why do you demand they be with you?

If the goal is to get people to want you, give them something to want.

[WinkyDink]

11. Sorry, I'm on the Vinegar Train.

[demwing]

34. I don't want the Tea Baggers to love us

I want them to feel the despair of their hateful, backward, racist, corrupt, STUPIDITY. I want them to be overwhelmed by their own faults, and stay home.

I don't want to win them over to anything.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

37. They seem to like Allen West a bit so

I don't think you're going to convince them they are racist.

And they don't seem ashamed of their religion. So that's probably a non-starter as well.

Do you have a Plan D?

[BootinUp]

12. The fact is, the sheeple were lied to by the smart ones on the right

There can be no denying this.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

16. ignorant and fooled is not the same...

though unfortunately they are seen as the same.

There is a great line in Coal Miner's Daughter where Loretta Lynn (Sissy Spacek) calls out, "I might be ignorant, but I ain't stupid." If only people understood the difference.

sP

[BootinUp]

23. We do understand it, we are just pissed off right now.

The Democratic party gets the fact that our elections are being flooded with corrupt cash, and that voters are ignorant, afraid and not stupid. The fear mongering from the right is disgusting.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

28. yes, pissed...i get it

but the representation as stupid goes far past just the election day/week/month. Go back six months in posts...it is still there. Go back a year. Even when we win, the other side is still stupid/evil.

sP

[AuntPatsy]

13. Oh I see your point, respecting lying, cheating, racism and downright self important

Big mouths is the way to winning. So glad you set me straight on how to deal with such types of people........I,m sure the prez agrees that holding hands and singing cumbaja has been his saving grace in trying to get good things accomplished as his term continues with these good people.

:crazy: :crazy: :crazy:

[ProdigalJunkMail]

19. yep...you get it too...

cause that is all the other side has...of course, they say the same about you...

sP

[AuntPatsy]

26. Spare me your dry wit, I live and breathe the same air as these umm people and

Know their mindset very well, your wrong period. Respect for opposing views can only be given to a certain few, and you must know them a bit better before such a decision on how dealing with them will help.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

29. i never said respect their views...

i said change them. i will not spare you my wit until you spare me your ire.

sP

[AuntPatsy]

35. By not calling there views idiotic out loud when completely deserving of that particular style

Wording is showing them a respect completely undeserved, no ire here just being truthful that not calling an idiot an idiot doesn't win you any leverage at all.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

54. ideas certainly don't require respect

i get that...but telling someone they are stupid/evil/idiotic for their beliefs will never get you anywhere.

in marriage counseling one of the first things you're taught is that you have to respect the other person. otherwise you are going nowhere. and whether it is liked or not...there is a marriage in this country.

sP

[AuntPatsy]

62. I ask you honestly, have you enacted the style of debating ideas with

every single con repug you meet up with and end up with a rapt and silent and attentive audience with your nice words and seemingly calm mannerisms?

I agree that such a way would be perfectly acceptable in a common sense world but honestly when it comes to how the opposition has not only represented itself in the past but continues to do so in the present do you honestly believe that common sense and respect is what they prefer?

I wish it were so but sadly, you would not believe the filth I have encountered when attempting logical calm discussions of real and important issues as soon as the dem party or the president is mentioned, logic and serenity flies out the window...incredibly disheartening and after many many many such attempts, I no longer feel they are deserving of any respect whatsoever..like I said, I don't attack until they do

[Xicano]

14. I have 'compromised' enough already.

The reason I say that is because they ARE too stupid to come over to our side - on anything. Also, we have compromised with them way too much already which is a big reason why we're in the mess we are in now. No Mas!

[ProdigalJunkMail]

20. ok...keeping calling them stupid...

and not one of them will ever listen to you...

sP

[Xicano]

40. The point IMO is they have never listened to us

At least not in any one of our life times. And being as stupid as they are just makes it that more likely they will never listen to us. They'll let us compromise to them, but, they are not going to listen to us.

[mwb970]

15. I'm sorry, but the bulk of right-wing voters *are* stupid.

You could say that they are "uneducated" and "misinformed" if you prefer that formulation. But people who are lied to constantly and swallow every word of it without question are, to me, stupid.

All conservatives are not dumb, but I swear, every single dumb person in America eventually becomes a conservative. There is just something about them and their "philosophy" that attracts the stupid like flies to crap.

The right wing in America consists of 2% smart, greedy people and 98% uneducated, misinformed sheep. The greedy have enlisted the stupid to work against their own interests (and mine!). The smart people are forced to sit on the sidelines and watch. There aren't enough of us here to affect the outcome.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

22. and they same the exact same things about you

and they are just as convinced they are right as you are...neither of you has any hope of learning anything from the other. Logic will win you nothing, despite having the best ideas in the world, due to your positioning of the recipient.



sP

[alarimer]

27. Only they would be wrong.

They are stupid and evil.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

30. evidence to the point...again...n/t

[mwb970]

31. I'm not going to try further to convince you otherwise.

I see stupid people, I call them stupid, that's how I roll. You obviously are in the "both sides do it" camp. I'm not. Have a nice day!

[eridani]

17. Conservatives aren't stupid--they are sociopaths

Also lazy, pig-ignorant and proud of it. Unlike stupidity, those things are choices.

[mstinamotorcity]

18. For one, I will not listen to

a person who I know is lying or doesn't have the facts and act as if they are telling the truth when they know they are telling a bald face lie. The repugs are lying and have been lying since before Nixon.He perfected stealing. And they couldn't stop. And repugs will torture anyone who does not let them continue in massive Corporate theft.

[End Of The Road]

21. They run someone like Christine O'Donnell and I'm not supposed to think they're stupid??

[alarimer]

24. The other side IS stupid

Well the American public is stupid, really fucking stupid but the Tea Baggers are the stupidest assholes on the fucking planet.

Their arguments are completely fact-free and utterly untrue. They believe LIES no matter how often they are debunked. So yes, they are stupid.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

25. and half the respondents in this thread prove my point

you can have the best ideas ever. they can save the world. they can make the world a better place. and yet, you insist on saying that the people who have not come to your way of thinking are idiots/stupid/evil. How do you ever hope to win even ONE?

It baffles...it boggles...

sP

[WinkyDink]

32. No, the problem is with Casper Milquetoast concepts such as yours.

Dick Cheney would as soon shoot you in the face.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

45. yep...that's the problem...

[mwb970]

33. The funny thing is, it's *your* attitude that baffles....and boggles...me. /nt

[ProdigalJunkMail]

48. what? that you shouldn't refer to the opposition as stupid? n/t

[trotsky]

38. That's what the Republicans do...

and as evidenced by last night, it's pretty damn successful.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

49. no...I think the republicans just scared and misinformed everyone n/t

[trotsky]

55. However they ALSO...

"(say) that the people who have not come to (their) way of thinking are idiots/stupid/evil".

It sure doesn't seem to hurt.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

56. i think it does...

but maybe i am not paying close enough attention. perhaps it is the combination? maybe they didn't change anyone's mind but just scared them into voting?

sP

[trotsky]

57. Well then you just contradicted yourself.

In your OP you said the #1 problem in politics was thinking the other guys are stupid. But now you seem to say more important than that is scaring people into voting. Because if you scare them enough, they'll forget your #1 problem.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

59. maybe it does...

there are loads of factors that all work together...but i would still say, for progress to occur i think the positioning of people and idea(l)s needs to change...

sP

[Vinca]

36. Is the creation museum owned by a Democrat?

I rest my case.

[piratefish08]

39. +1

[ProdigalJunkMail]

50. you might want to reopen your case

there are lots of creationist democrats as well...and not all of the creationist can be lumped into what i call the "6000 year crowd".

sP

[Dappleganger]

41. They're not going to come to our side because our values are completely different.

And yes, when you run the country into the ground and then continue to shout "Hell no you can't!" while the other side tries to dig you out --that's stupid.

If they had anyone who was smart on their side they retired and no longer play the political game.

[Wednesdays]

43. Is that you, Mr. Stewart?

nt

[Silent3]

44. Republicans have been calling Democrats all sort of horrible things...

...for years, and it's winning them voters.

So how is it that not playing nice is our problem, while apparently being a Republican asset?

[PA Democrat]

46. All three of my siblings and both my parents are right wingers

I am very liberal. I have tried for years to have respectful constructive conversations with them, to no avail. A recent family crisis has resulted in a LOT of contact with them and I am heartbroken by their attitudes and their willful ignorance on many topics. The common thread is they ALL rely on FOX for their "news".

What is strange is that before the rise of FOX, politics was NEVER discussed at family gatherings. Now THEY bring up the topic constantly as if they are seeking to insult me or show me the "error" of my ways. It has gotten so bad that I even walked out of a holiday gathering at the start of the Iraq debacle.

I'll be honest, based upon my personal experience, for most people on the right, they won't listen no matter how respectful you are. Too many are too proud to admit they were wrong even when they are suffering from the consequences of their votes. Psychologically, they accept the excuses and blame shifting provided by FOX, no matter how preposterous rather than admit how wrong they were. I think some of it is genetic because I see more of a tendency for folks on the right to have a need to see everything in stark contrasts of black and white.

[eilen]

47. My friend changed

from conservative to liberal.

I think she started changing her tone after Katrina. Of course, in the beginning she was buying all the right wing bullshit about it. It takes time. it can be done.

The wars-- at first she was for them but then, later after reading more and more: she was against them. I know that she had never really been a "pro-war" person before so I was surprised. But taking it in context with 9/11--she had lost people in that and was very angry.

The biggest change was when she stopped listening to talk radio. She said she started turning it off as the negativity and hatefulness was bothering her. Once she did that and stopped watching tv news, she started becoming a normal person again. She was still current on events--she read the paper/internet news sites-- but realized after she stopped listening to the radio that she had become brainwashed so kept away from opinion/commentary. We had a long talk about it and Tara said she always recommends to her conservative friends to take a 2 week talk radio, tv and internet holiday. Deprogramming.

Media control is mind control.

[OneGrassRoot]

52. It started with Limbaugh....Fox continued the effort....

Limbaugh was the first to start drumming home the mantra of "LIBERALS THINK YOU'RE STUPID!"

The right-wingers (and those who gradually turned into right-wingers) tuned out any reasonable discussion because they felt any disagreement was a personal insult.

Fox/Limbaugh/Palin types, I've realized, completely and wholly identify with their media gods. Criticism of their media gods is taken very personally.

Rational discourse has become impossible, and I absolutely blame it on right-wing talk radio and Faux News, and their listeners/viewers who choose to buy in to the rhetoric and be willfully ignorant.

The left has had two decades of bullying, so there is definitely pushback going on now.

Many on the left are less apt to be pulled into the mind control simply because we get information from a variety of resources. If we were devoted viewers to one outlet (online, TV, radio, whatever), the same could easily happen to us.

Yep, media control is mind control. :hi:


edit for clarity

[Ghost Dog]

58. Media control is mind control.

You got that right.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

51. excellent point...pride DOES play into this a lot

unwillingness to admit you were wrong or ARE wrong is a big problem. THAT i don't know how to attack.

sP

[treestar]

53. Good point.

The Republicans think the voters are stupid and cater to that idea, and don't challenge the voters to think, and we go along with that game. It's gotten to rock bottom, IMO.

But it is difficult to see people who would nominate the likes of Christine O'Donnell as smart. Reaching them is not easy, because they'd have to listen to something for five seconds.

[Catherina]

60. Rec'd n/t

[VOX]

63. Well-intentioned post, but naive. The biggest problem in American politics is bottomless $$$$$$$...

And the playing field is tilted to the right. Read today's NYT article on the various GOP victories -- most of the districts where Republicans won had tons more money thrown into them via Karl Rove's Crossroads entities. Democrats will have a hard time conjuring up this kind of cash, in a time when obscene amounts of money are being funneled into the critical races.

Corporations have been granted personhood by a compliant, right-wing Supreme Court. And the right-wing "troops" are being cynically manipulated by big oil, big pharma, and big-everything else, to avoid any kind of oversight and/or regulation. So the big mouthpieces -- Rush, Hannity, Beck, et al, keep the insulated rubes in a perpetual state of agitation, and feed them a steady diet of fear and rage.

How on earth is there going to be any rational discourse with nutcases who believe that their president is a Muslim who abets the "homosexual agenda," kills fetuses for fun and who wants to euthanize everyone over the age of 75? Or that global warming is a hoax put on by Al Gore? Or that there are so many homeless in the U.S. because they're all lazy? There is absolutely no common ground of sanity to have any kind of dialogue, and you'd get shouted down if you even tried.

Right wingers aren't merely stupid, they're IGNORANT. And that ignorance is now cross-bred with religious zealotry, a volatile mix that's dangerous to the entire planet.

[arbusto_baboso]

64. It ain't stupidity, it's denial.

The other side aren't idiots (well, their supporters, anyway), they're acting like battered wives. (The GOP itself is the batterer.)

Think about the analogy for awhile and let it sink in. You know it's true.

[JackRiddler]

65. The Stewart/Colbert rally was fun for three hours. It really was.

[hfojvt]

66. you don't see lots of candidates pushing that message

not like we do on discussion boards, blogs, and comments. Although it is clear to me that Republicans usually believe it, that's why they feel like they can lie with impunity, because the voters are either too stupid or too uninformed to call them on their lies.

But even a fairly smart person can easily be either uninformed ot misinformed. Those are not the same as stupidity.

[Deep13]

67. The other side is stupid.

I agree that pointing this out is a bad way to solve the problem. The best way to bring them around is to manipulate them into thinking our idea was their idea all along. Sadly, this is not something I have ever been especially good at.