Maybe No One Can Fix US Economy

[louis c]

Did it ever occur to anyone that perhaps the American economy is structurally unsound? For a sixty years we had a strong middle class with good jobs that could afford to consume. For generations we have had good and bad economic cycles. But each time we came out of the cycle stronger.

However, since the early nineties, we have decided to eliminate manufacturing as part of the American economy. Outsourcing is a Chamber of Commerce idea. It first came up under President Reagan. Later, with by-partisan support, Clinton joined Republicans down the road of outsourcing.

There is no more middle class. We can not build an economy in which we just service each other. Somebody has to make things. So, maybe, just maybe, we can't cut taxes and deregulate to fix this economy. We may not be able to borrow and expand government jobs either. Every two or four years, the public will turn on the Republicans who want to do it one way and then turn on the Democrats who want to do it another.

We have to fix the structure. We have to make buying American mandatory with tariffs and heavy taxes on outsourcing. Hell, I think an American company who ships jobs overseas for cheap labor should have their officers tried for treason.

I believe in trade. But tell me, when did any country figure it was wise economic policy to export jobs? We make a car, we sell it here or there. They make wine, they sell it here or there. But we make a car there and sell it here? Who the fuck thinks that's economically sound?

Back to my original point, maybe no one can fix this damn thing.

[SharonAnn]

1. Word!

[RandomThoughts]

2. heh.

I know there are many people with more money then they need, or they earned, that could correct my situation. So it is correctable.

[Patchuli]

3. Turn U.S. back into a producing nation

instead of an overfed, outsourced service shell of what we used to be, the United States can again be great. Of course, that means prying the greedy fingers of the rich off the controls, whatever it takes. I am personally sick of them fucking with my life so they can have MORE AND MORE AND MORE AND MORRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRE!

Live simply so others may simply live. Say, why don't we just EAT THE RICH? lol

[Trajan]

4. The sixty years was no accident ....

We had a strong middle class because public policy brought changes that created that middle class .... This isn't magic ....

The most important aspect: Unionization ....

Being able to bargain with employers leveled the playing field in the workplace .... It brought good wages and benefits, which translated into GREATER consumer spending, which created an expanding market, which required more labor to satisfy, which brought more wages, which created more spending ..... etc etc ....

What we see today is the opposite: Jobs are lost, wages are lost (or reduced greatly), worried consumers cannot spend above their expenses, so less goods are sold, less labor is required, more jobs are lost, more goods go unsold ...

I don't think we will see a bottom until American wages match the cost of overseas wages plus transportation of goods from overseas producers .... Until we are able to compete with the LOWEST wage, the multinational super corporations will continue to seek the lowest possible labor cost .... Hence this race to the bottom .....

What baffles me is : Don't the middle level businesses .... Those who are NOT Coca Cola or Shell Oil, don't they realize they have a horse in this race to the bottom too ? .... Small producers who sell 'frivolous' items will shrivel and die as the middle class does ..... MANY companies are going to fail, and their shareholders and managers will fall along with them ...

We are seeking a new level, lower than before .... Real estate, durable goods, retail sales .... ALL will be seriously impacted by this downward spiral ... Yet those who hold the giant purses pretend they can pay slave wages and STILL sell goods 'like the old days' ....

BULLSHIT! .... You pay us 1920's wages ? ... You get 1920's sales revenues ....

We are headed to a slave economy, and the only one's that will benefit will be those who sell goods and services that control slaves ....

The Middle Class is moribund, and headed to imminent death ....

And the American people don't seem to have a fucking clue - As far as THEY know - Things have always been good ..... Well wake the fuck up: The Middle Class is a rare entity .... It lasted 70 years this time around ... but it is dying fast now ....

ONLY wage increases will stop this freefall, and that is not going to happen ...

So, jobs will continue to be lost, sales will continue to plummet, profits will continue to shrivel, real estate value will continue to fall, stocks will continue to dive, until a new bottom is reached ....

Deflation will be in control soon .... There really is no other end in sight .... The 'failed stimulus' didnt actually fail : It buttressed the system by injecting spendable income into the system, and preserved a couple of years of extreme loss .... But that will end as soon as that stimulus peters out ... The American Middle Class is marked for extinction ....

EDIT: Oh .... I forgot to ascribe blame ...

1) Conservatives who will dogmatically attack wages, until it kills them ...
2) Democrats, who don't seem to be able to rub two words together to create a cogent and persuasive argument that can explain this stuff to the electorate .... The American people are ignorant because they are not being carefully informed .... It has been pitiful to watch ....

[RKP5637]

10. Exactly, "And the American people don't seem to have a fucking clue." It drives me

up the wall. Each day is filled with a lot of WTF's to me. Just WTF will it take to wake up Americans. So many are so ignorant, so clueless, so lame. If this country way back had had to depend on the citizens of today, it wouldn't even be a country.

And people today resist unionization. They're all brainwashed. Unions helped make this country great and gave people a voice. Hell, most of the benefits people today have wouldn't even exist today if it had not been for the unions. I was never in a union, I was in management, but I have ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS been appreciative of what the unions did to help make this country great and the benefits I had because of unions.

[cliffordu]

16. Yep Yep Yep.

This ought to be it's own OP.

[Creative]

61. Unions were great--but then they became...

Well, ask Jimmy Hoffa.

[Trajan]

62. Every good thing carries an opportunity for abuse ...

But those who manipulate good things for their own nefarious ends should be held to account .... The good thing itself is still a good thing .... right ?

Ask .... Well ... I am not sure which dead person you should ask about that ....

[RKP5637]

5. It's all part of the plan, none want it fixed. And none give a damn about the middle class

or jobs. It's all a farce.

I agree with everything you said, but it ain't gonna happen in the US. It's broken and none want to fix it, not that it can't be fixed.

[johnlucas]

18. The Middle Class are fools

Yeah I said it. Now listen why.
They believe in this illusion of wealth so hard that see themselves as separate from The Poor & The Working Class.

It's ego-driven bullshit.
You work for your money? You are POOR.
Your money works for you? You are RICH.

Put it in binary terms so it's easy to understand.

That joke of wealth you value so much was a bribe from the elites to stave off revolutions.
They divided the Poor Workers by sprinkling a little Bling on 'em so they wouldn't stand together to fight for the Ultimate Justice.

If anything interrupts your income, you can easily find yourself back on the streets homeless in short time.
For most of you Middle Classers, you're so up in hock with debts & payments like mortgages, car notes, & credit cards that you'll probably be on the street as fast as someone who lives check to check working as a short-order cook in a restaurant.

BLANKET STATEMENT ALERT
•Anybody Who Labels Themselves And Identifies Themselves As Middle Class Is A FOOL Who Has Forgotten His/Her Role In Dismantling The Elitists Who Live By Human Greed.•

Humankind is selfish by default. Because of Humankind's Weakness it is able to learn compassion, empathy, & reciprocity.
Long ago before the beginning, one man used his knowledge to procure vital resources at the expense of others.
He hoarded these valuable things to himself & only himself using the others' lack of knowledge against them.
But he was one man against many & when he was found out, he offered these few on the inside track a portion of his resources in exchange for protection against the unknowing others.
This is the beginning of the Economically Elite.

A greedy man protected by rings of enforcers keeping the whole tribe in famine.
In order to maintain this world order all sorts of strategies were concocted from the brutal to the intellectual.
Big weapons to break flesh & bone. Big mind games to confuse your conscience.
Sometimes the Elite had to make openings in the club to keep the facade going. The ones admitted to the club protected this mentality of greed.
To the Elite, the Others are just useful tools to maintain the Elite's resources. The Others are not human beings with feelings & needs, just tools.
The Elite's mistake is in not believing that he too is his brother's keeper. He has little to no compassion, empathy, or reciprocity.
The world as a whole suffers from this. Every government, every nation.

The Middle Class are just useful idiots to those who believe that everything belongs to them, the greedy ones. Another of the many many many many many strategies to maintain this evil order.
Give 'em a sliver of the resources & watch them fight for our cause against their own.

No one should give a damn about the Middle Class ESPECIALLY the Middle Class.
The Middle Class should recognize themselves as One & the Same as The Poor.
Binary. Either HAVE or HAVE-NOT.
John Lucas

[ipaint]

24. Exactly.

The ignorance and arrogance of the middle class will bring us down.

[sendero]

35. While I don't disagree with much of what you said..

... not all of us are wage slaves. It is a personal choice whether or not you are going to play their game and I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one that got off that bus a long time ago.

In the dot-com bust I was out of work for years but I survived because I don't feel the need to SPEND EVERY FREAKING DIME I MAKE like most Americans do.

[johnlucas]

43. That's just it. You ARE.

I'm Black so let me break it down to you in terms like these:

There's Field "Negroes" and House "Negroes". I wanna use another word in those quotation marks but the post'll probably be deleted if I do.
A clue: It sorta rhymes with Snickers.

The Field Negroes are out in the sun braving harsh elements doing the heavy labor.
The hot sun, the bugs that bite, the suffocating humidity. Work that taxes the knees, back, shoulders, not to mention the mind.

The House Negroes are inside doing a slightly less physically demanding type of labor.
Raising/nursing the Slavemasters' children, cleaning out "chamber pots", sewing, sweeping, beating rugs, polishing the wood. Still takes a toll on the mind but not to the extent of the field negroes.

The new terminologies for that dichotomy is Blue Collar & White Collar.
The worker in the hot factory at the assembly line vs. the worker in the semi-cushy chair in the air-conditioned cubicles.

What was my definition of Poor & Rich?
Does your money work for you? Can you just sit back & strategize your money having others do the heavy lifting?
Or do you have to go out there & hustle every day to obtain income?

Just because you hoard a little bit more of your pittance don't make you ahead of the game.
You ain't ahead of the game & you are no different than The Poor.

I bet money you can't just up & stop doing what you're doing in order to maintain your lifestyle.
A rich person, a wealthy person more accurately can make money without actively working.
Money is a momentum-based system like snowballs down a hill. The more you got, the more options you got to make more.

Once you break the threshold of the cost of living, you are ahead of the game.
Bill Gates, Warren Buffett, & that rich guy from Mexico can lose 99% of their entire wealth & STILL be wealthy.
They can lose almost ALL of their money & STILL be wealthy enough to live beyond the dreams of most people on Earth.

What happens when you lose 99% of your total money?
Think about that before you delude yourself into thinking you're different than those who spend "EVERY FREAKING DIME THEY MAKE".
When you ain't got nothin', you can't help but to spend every freaking dime you make.
Money is a momentum-based system after all & they're at the base of the hill pushing the snowball upward.

I'm a master of saving & curbing spending too but I know I am not ahead of the game. Anything major happens in my life & my economics will not be able to cover it.
That's the truth for most people in any nation including this one.

The moral of the tale is that despite the artificial distinction both the Field Negro & the House Negro are still SLAVES at the end of the day.
John Lucas

[sendero]

46. I'm not wealthy..

... so I get your point. But I do have options and I don't have to go to work every day.

And I understand that if you make minimum wage you have to spend every freaking dime you make.

But millions and millions of Americans are slaves to their tract mansions and their Yukons and I am not.

Most people MAKE themselves slaves by trying to show others that they are more prosperous than they are. That is my point.

[johnlucas]

48. Your options aren't as numerous as you think

You have to go to work sometimes though, don't you?
If you do, you are not ahead of the game.
You're not ahead of the game until you have exceeded the cost of living threshold.

To tie into my previously stated analogy, you are a Runaway Slave.
You are not on the plantation like the other Negroes but you still aren't really free either.
That's why you're running.

You have done well for yourself to hoard enough of the scraps to make a meal. But your meal isn't everlasting.
And your health will one day give way making it impossible to hoard those scraps.
Don't get sick, sendero, or you'll find out that you aren't far behind those in hock because of their tract mansions & Yukons.

You THINK you are free but you are STILL a Slave too.
And one day they will catch you on the run. You will then be placed back on that plantation you ran away from.

MY point is all of these artificial distinctions we put between ourselves does us a disservice & destroys the progressive movement.
"I'm an American citizen! And we have to do something about these illegal immingrants!"

NO! YOU are THE SAME as those "illegal immigrants". National borders are artificial.
They are looking for work just like you do. They are slaving just like you do.

YOU are THE SAME as the sweatshop worker.
YOU are THE SAME as the Indian tech support official who got his/her job from outsourcing.
YOU are THE SAME as the Africans digging for diamonds in the caves.
YOU are THE SAME as that hustling guy who sells oranges & newspapers on the street bringing them up to your car.
YOU are THE SAME as those West Virginian coal miners with soot in their lungs.

There is no difference in theme. Just little details.

Your language, your words here betray you.
You still speak as if you're separate because of some adaptive strategies you've concocted.
And THAT is EXACTLY why you will NEVER EVER see the Progressive Movement take root in this country.
The Greedy Ones have gotten their opposition divided. Every man for himself. Sucks to be you. I got mine.
Until that mentality changes they will rule.

In my case, I see myself as One & the Same as the so-called homeless bum on the street. I know that it won't take much before I become him myself.
It doesn't matter how much I have saved or what job I got for the time being. It doesn't matter what belongings I have. I can easily become him.
The only difference is the axe just hasn't come for me yet. It's me & "the bum's" job to destroy that axe.
John Lucas

[coalition_unwilling]

53. Bravo! What most Americans should have understood if they had eyes to see

is that, after Shock and Awe, we are all Iraqis. After Katrina, we are all New Orleanians. The ruling class use race, sex, religion and culture to keep the proletariat divided against itself and incapable of achieving significant class consciousness.

Consider this: the average U.S. enlisted grunt has far more in common with the Iraqi or Afghan he or she oppresses than that grunt has with the capitalist overlords who sent him to Iraq or Aghanistan in the first place.

[johnlucas]

58. Thank you!

You spoke nothing but truth! Truth truth truth!

The Matrix was the most relevant movie ever made. Each nation's populace is under its own Matrix.
This false world that blinds us to the reality of life.

When you look on the ground you can't see that line that separates the land on the maps.
Those are artificial boundaries. A "nation" is just a governance zone. And in reality some nations rule over others so those "nation" zones might as well be "state" zones, "province" zones. It's so artificial that people put up walls & fences to support this fallacy

I never blame the people for the actions of their governments & I hope other people from other lands don't blame us for the actions of ours.

When you talked about the grunts I just wanted to say Amen!
The honest truth is I see myself as less an "American" & more as One of Humanity on Earth.
Humanity can never be free until we learn that we don't really need governments.
If we were kind & just with one another, there would never be a problem for a government to form.

I think it'll take thousands of years for humanity to realize this if it ever survives that long but I do think one day we will know this at large.
John Lucas

[coalition_unwilling]

60. I hope you can visit my blog (see my signature line). I'm styling myself

a modern-day Thoreau and I am pretty sure you will dig it.

Actually, the biological track record does not hold out a lot of hope for homo sapiens. As I recall, about 100,000 years is the average maximum lifespan for any given species. We've just about tapped out our 100,000 year alotment. Oh well, it was a pretty good run while it lasted. For every Bush there has been a Beethoven, for every Rumsfeld an Isaac Newton, for every Cheney a Gandhi.

[johnlucas]

67. I'll check it out

I'll put your blog on my favorites (I should bookmarks since I use Firefox).

I hope we're not at the end of the 100 grand. Human beings although slowly have changed over the years.
Believe it or not we're not as brutish & ruthless as we used to be. There's a lot more compassion for the unfortunate & the weak among us.
We used our intelligence for the good & realized the value in each person.
We don't really look up to Genghis Khans anymore & there's a reason why the word "barbarian" is an insult today.

But man there is so much of that old foolishness from this silly ape it's discouraging sometimes.
We'll never change in theme. We are always going to be selfish at root & seek to manipulate reality for our own benefit.
We will always be deceptive creatures at heart ruled by our out-of-control egos. We will always seek power in some form to try to raise us above another.
We will always be competitive on some level.

What we CAN do is change the details of these themes.
We can manipulate our egos to seek positive power. To be the best peacemaker. To be the best humanitarian. To outdo others in earnesty. To change our reality as selfish deceptive beings into that of altruistic honest beings.

We have done this in small circles already. We've channeled our compassion born from our inherent weaknesses into these impulses. Even when we help others we help ourselves.
It feels good to do good. It's still selfish in a sense.

Through this manipulation we have Salvation Armies & Doctors Without Borders.
That's how we ended up with those glimmers of hope in a hopeless society. Mentors who spend their own time with a child not his/her own in order to influence that child.
To get the child to become more like himself/herself. The ego is working there but for a good purpose.

We have gotten better as hard as it is to believe. We don't believe in throwing innocent bystanders into volcanoes anymore to make the rain god happy.
We wince at the reality of child soldiers. We protested wars. We stood up for slaves. We championed the homeless. We advocated for the sick.
We honor our differences more instead of demonizing them.

So looking honestly at past history I have hope that we can get even better.
Ironically the end result is we won't be quite human anymore but may evolve into something new.
It doesn't matter about the form, it just matters about the results.
John Lucas

[sendero]

54. I'm happy that you have a platform..

.. to voice your view of things but really you don't know jack shit about me or my circumstances so you might not want to assume too much.

[johnlucas]

59. Why so testy?

I must have struck a nerve.

You seem beholden to this mentality that you are above & beyond the others.

You said it yourself that you're not wealthy.
That means you ain't as ahead of the game as you think you are.
You said that you have to work even if it's not everyday.
Wealthy people don't have to work. Wealthy people don't really have to do anything but seed their money all day.
Any "work" they do is more of an adventure than anything. They are not dependent on their labor to survive anymore now that they have well exceeded the cost of living threshold.

Continue looking down at those with their Yukons & tract mansions who spend EVERY FREAKING DIME THEY MAKE.
Reality will hit you sooner or later that your little savings & cost-cutting measures are futile when the shit really hits the pan.

Well, that is, unless you're not as non-wealthy as you claim.
John Lucas

P.S.: Or maybe you're in good with someone who is wealthy so your personal money doesn't matter. Just wondering.

[walldude]

64. Probably testy because you are kind of rude...

yeah you have it figured out. Big fucking deal. So do most of us and we didn't need you to tell us. You'd have to be fucking blind to miss it. Here let me quote you:

"You seem beholden to this mentality that you are above & beyond the others."

You are the one who came in here with the attitude that you have it all figured out and the rest of us are idiots. Can't imagine why you angered someone. You call someone you have never met and have no idea what they are and what they stand for a fool, then when they get insulted you claim "I must have struck a nerve". Clever, if you are on a third grade playground.


Welcome to DU. While I agree with what you are saying, if you want people who don't get it to learn from you you are going to need some better communication skills.

[johnlucas]

66. I'm responding by the words he put in his post

He initially says that he agrees with what I said but then he has a line betraying that sentiment.
My whole post was about erasing those divisions between the Have-Nots & his words spoke down on some of those Have-Nots.

I challenged him on that line of thought alone & he gets angrier when I hit the problem in the middle.
No, I didn't nice it up for him. There's too much of that going around.
He didn't have to like what I said & he can ignore it if he wants to. But I'm gonna put it out there for him regardless.

There's a reason why the Democrats lost on November 2nd. There's a reason why the national dialogue doesn't reflect a Progressive point of view.
I put my reasoning why. Take it as rude, take it as honest, take it anyway you like.

Truth is independent of the speaker. You don't have to like me but test what I say. Put it to the test in day to day life.
Check it through history & see if what I say doesn't pan out.
Challenge me on points that I may have overlooked.

This ain't about 2010. This is about the past 70 years. Why don't we see the Second Bill of Rights as a bygone fact instead of an issue of debate?
There's no debate. That should be an assumption by now.

I was born in 1976 & have been listening to this "Conservative/Republican" bullshit all of my life. All of my life I wondered why it was so hard for something easy to take root in the nation.
The Republican party of today (formed from the shift of 1964/1968) should be a fringe party at best.
Today's Democratic Party, more importantly the Progressive platform should be the national consciousness today & for the past 70 years.
The Great Depression should have waken everybody up. But as we see the Business Class with their greed rules the day.

When I see working folks downgrade other working folks I don't have to wonder why things are the way they are today. It's human nature to separate & divide.
But the only divide that really matters is the divide between the Greedy who rob The Tribe of its resources and The Rest of The Tribe who lack those robbed resources.
The Greedy ones forgot that it's not all about them & that's why "Civilization" on Planet Earth falls apart.

Yeah some of those who have bought into the Middle Class mentality have been wasteful & foolish with their illusion of wealth. Forgive them & unite.
Sendero didn't do that. He continued to slam them over their mistakes.

And that's why the Progressive Movement will go nowhere.
That's how you ended up with a Democratic Party full of Republican-like "Blue Dogs" & Democratic Leadership Council types.
That once Democratic party of the Slaveholders corrected itself when it atoned in the Civil Rights Era of the 1960s. The racists by & large left the party wholesale ironically going to the Republican party which once oversaw the end of official slavery & put those former slaves in positions of power during Reconstruction.

The Democratic Party had a chance to become a full driver for social & economic justice for all citizens. I think that ended in 1972 when McGovern lost.
Ever since then the Democratic Party which housed this Progressive/Labor-minded platform began conceding more & more of that platform leading to the era of Reagan & the Bushes, not to mention half-stepping Clinton.

The Democratic leaders we hoped would challenge the monied class became a bunch of pussified weak-willed mealy-mouthed pushovers who conceded every fight & challenge allowing that monied class to get their way time & time again. Even after the massive corruption of the Dubya regime, a regime so corrupt that even some Republicans were disgusted, we had the chance to get back on track with this largely interrupted movement.
But no we get more of this concession & half-hearted/quarter-hearted attitude from the ones we're supposed to see as the Good Guys.

And people expect a vote to change things now??? Everybody forgot who caused this crap & voted in the same exact suckers who made this mess in the first place.
Everybody wants to put this on Obama now. If he stood with the Progressive cause, he wouldn't have had to worry about that. He was another one of those scared folks too.

2010 was your last chance. The Progressive Movement died on November 2nd...if you wanted to achieve it through the system.
Now it's time to go BEYOND the system. It's time to go BEYOND the Democratic Party.
And you're not gonna get there until you end all the useless sniping between a force who should stand as one monolith against the Greedy ones.

THAT'S why I challenged him like that.
I'm BEYOND the Democratic Party at this point. From now on, it's "wake me up when the Revolution comes"
We can't get that Revolution until we get the numbers. We can't get those numbers until we unite.
John Lucas

[RKP5637]

36. Well said! The ignorance of this populace will never get it... Somehow the

fools think they are part of the elite. Even when given a chance to vote to affect some part of it all they are too too lazy to vote and/or vote in their own worst possible interest. They are fodder to be used and abused. Fodder to be used/abused by bible thumpers and/or the monied elite and power brokers. They are putty under a roller, Lemmings off the cliff.

[leftstreet]

49. +1

Although I disagree with you that humans are selfish by default, but that's a whole other thread


Welcome to DU!

:thumbsup:

[Individualist]

65. Well said!

[the redcoat]

6. The answers are all obvious, but that's not problem

The problem is that the answers for national economic stability directly conflict with the answers for extreme personal wealth and power.

Now consider that the people with wealth and power are the ones determining the rules of our economy, and it is obvious why economic problems are infinitely harder to solve.

We cannot fix the economy if we are trying to solve the wrong problems and refusing the address the real causes.

[Toucano]

7. Well said. n/t

[RKP5637]

12. Exactly!!! Well Said!!! n/t

[pampango]

27. Exactly. The concentration of wealth and power is the problem.

People in every other Western country have been more effective in confronting these concentrations of power and money, resulting in much fairer distributions of income, stronger safety nets and more progressive societies. That doesn't mean that the right (power and money) ever stops fighting for more power and money (witness France recently as one example) but other Western citizens have been more successful in achieving and defending progressive policies.

[nadinbrzezinski]

8. It can be fixed but... here is the tricky part

We USED to have an industrial policy... it went with Reagan.

We NEED an industrial policy...

That means corporations have to be given both carrots and stick reasons to keep INDUSTRIAL jobs in the US.

Right now they are getting both carrots and sticks to move them away.

By the way, this is not that fast... to go back to a sound industrial policy though we need to talk about it OUTSIDE of places like here or the Hartmann show... this has to be the damn conversation INSDIE DC... and up until now... good luck with that.

[IDHow]

14. The military budget is our industrial policy

It's not called state industrial policy of course, but that's what it is. Socialize the costs, and then privatize the profits from the result of the state research like aircrafts, computers, the internet etc.

[nadinbrzezinski]

15. Hmm no, not quite

not when major components need chips that come from China.

It's been a while since Intel produced those mission critical chips in the US... and they got tax cuts to do that shit.

We are has been empire and now are second tier power. It is not in how many warships we have in the fleet... but how much steel we produce each year.

[gulliver]

9. Cleaner, smarter, better is the way, imo.

Making things cleaner, smarter, and better takes work. We have a LOT of room for quality improvements in what we do. We have a LOT of room in smarter and better. The "good enough" we settle for is not good enough. Every step we take to do things righter and cleaner makes us have to work, and work is jobs. Things that are better inevitably have more human input. At least that is my opinion.

[Subdivisions]

11. The economy cannot now and will never recover in any sustained or

meaningful way. Oil production is in decline and has been, relative to demand and forecasts, for the past five years.

We will learn to live with less and less as we move forward until someday our population reaches a point where it can sustain itself.

As oil production continues to decline, the civilization it spawned and supported will fall away. There is not enough oil left to build an alternative lifestyle using an alternative energy source that allows for the continuation of business as usual.

Plan to live a more simpler life.

[jeanpalmer]

13. Maybe they don't want to try

Maybe they don't care. Who even talks about it. Not Obama. Not Pelosi or Reid. Not in two years. Maybe he didn't have enough time to get working on it. Maybe it will happen in year 8.

How hard is it to keep airline maintenance and call center jobs in the US? They're shipping them out in broad daylight with a lot of fanfare. Who doesn't know that undermines our economy? But Obama so far acts like he doesn't know.

There are two topics Democrats will not talk about -- the wars and outsourcing. It's as if they don't exist. From a party that used to be anti-war and pro-labor.

This party has deserted us. We have a bunch of strangers running it.

[yurbud]

17. yep--manufacturing will come back when we work for the same wages as Bangladesh or Vietnam

[pampango]

28. That's not what the experience of Germany, Australia and a number of other countries

would indicate.

[yurbud]

51. I don't approve of it, I mean that's what the wealthy want

[RKP5637]

38. They tried to stop outsourcing of jobs and tax incentives, but congress would

not vote for it... Also, the MIC is so profitable in this country that wars will go on indefinitely, it's a big money maker. All that Eisenhower warned of has happened with the MIC and a lot more. We pay taxes to blow countries apart, then pay taxes to rebuild them, then supply them with war machines. What a profitable deal for the MIC.

Gov. in this country is not run by gov., it's run by corporate interests and related greed and profit. The notion that the US gov. runs this country is an illusion. Politicians come and go, the real power and wealth stays and controls the gov. and people.

[Gravel Democrat]

19. The fix could start tomorrow

Not in 2012, or after the next crash or whenever those that call themselves our "leaders" say.

Tax goods and services consumed in the US but not produced here. It is just that simple. And it's a matter of National Security, moreso than attacking wedding parties in Af/Pak (...)

No "free trader" that I've ever asked the question of has been able to tell me why the following DOES NOT make sense: If we buy steel from China, they get the money and we get the steel. If we buy steel from Pittsburgh, we get the money and the steel.

Why is the new eastern portion of the SF Bay bridge built in China? Because it's cheaper and also more importantly we didn't have a big enough construction platform. At least that's what some bay area papers said.

But the people that call themselves our "Leaders" won't have it.

And most Americans are too stupid or too lazy or too occupied to force the issue.

Hence the fall into total dependence and serfdom. When the Vice President says "The Jobs Aren't Coming Back" there were no visible counters. No real disgust. No pointing out the obvious. We're cooked through and through. And Biden will never visit your children in the soup lines, that will most likely be declared illegal for lack of inspection.

[JVS]

20. We have room in our prisons for over 2,000,000 people and expansive unpopulated areas in Alaska

Certainly there is a way to fix the economy considering such providence.

[NickB79]

29. There's a reason Alaska is so unpopulated. nt

What vast tracts of Alaskan wilderness have to do with our moribund economy is beyond me, though.

[JVS]

57. Is there room for the several percent who own nearly everything?

[caty]

21. I'm still trying to figure out

what they mean by "create jobs". Create them from what? Thin air? Fairy dust? Magic myst? We already have enough jobs created. They're just not in our country. I would like to find a list of companies that have 100% of their jobs in THIS country. I would always buy their products first or, if I could go without that particular product, go without it. I've set up my finances so that only a very small amount of my money goes to Wall Street, now I would like to do the same with how I spend my money so it won't go to traitorous companies.

[RKP5637]

40. Exactly, when they speak of creating more jobs, they leave off the last

part of the sentence. "We are creating more jobs (over there)." Hell, we still reward corps. with tax incentives for creating jobs offshore/outsourcing. How the F is that supposed to work. Congress won't even vote to change the law to help prevent outsourcing.

This place is going down by design. The goal is to have slave labor in the US cheaper than offshore. The majority of the citizens in the US are F'ed and are too ignorant to get what is going on... US = United Stupidity, Inc.

[EFerrari]

22. They're not trying to fix the economy, they're trying to cover the banks.

Look at this story Amy had on today, a $6 billion dollar stimulus -- that is being used in a currency war, not put into our economy at all.

New $600B Fed Stimulus Fuels Fears of US Currency War

The Federal Reserve will pump $600 billion more into the US economy and keep interest rates at historical low levels. The short-term impact of the Fed’s move, known as quantitative easing, has been a jump in stock prices across the globe. Many nations, however, have accused the United States of waging a currency war by devaluing the dollar. We speak to former Wall Street economist and University of Missouri professor Michael Hudson. "The object of warfare is to take over a country’s land, raw materials and assets, and grab them," Hudson says. "In the past, that used to be done militarily by invading them. But today you can do it financially simply by creating credit, which is what the Federal Reserve has done."

http://www.democracynow.org/2010/11/5/new_600b_fed_stimulus_fuels_fears

[Taitertots]

23. There is no quick fix

No matter what people ignorant of the situation may tell you. Any pie in the sky plans don't take into considerations the possible negative repercussions of their policies.

The long term solutions are unpopular, costly, and opposed by everyone in power. The problem is that no one will accept any short term negatives to get to long term stability.

[EmeraldCityGrl]

25. Would that be the worse that could happen?

I would rather see the whole damn thing go down then for the corporations to take over.
If this latest media beat down is any indication we might be better off starting from scratch.
Either way it's going to be painful.

The last thing of any true value they want is SS. Trillions to keep the Wall Street cycle booming and
busting for a few years while we work for slave wages.

[NNN0LHI]

26. Other countries don't use or need tariffs and heavy taxes to keep our products out

The people in those countries know how important their manufacturing jobs are and are smart enough to support the workers in their own country over imports.

Here, not so much.

Here we have union government workers who used to be paid by the taxes from the the workers in our now deceased manufacturing industry. But because these people failed at simple economics and bought imports over US made products when they had the choice we are all screwed. Now they can't understand why there is no money to pay them any more? Or why they or their children can't find a job? They act all confused about it. Imagine that?

We are pretty much surrounded by idiots in this country and you can't fix stupid.

Recommended.

Don

[AngryAmish]

30. What made you think anyone ever could?

It may or may not be structurally unsound. We don't know. Nobody can. It is too complex for anyone or any group of people to figure out. look up "the knowledge problem".

And no thank you on stopping international trade. I like jamon serrano too much.

[sendero]

31. I've been beating that drum here...

..... for a couple of years. Our problems are structural and attitudinal and they are not going to be "fixed" with QE or tax cuts or stimulus packages.

Things will get worse faster with Republicans in charge, but even with Dems there is no solution and no escape from the decade-long (at least) slogging that we are faced with.

Only the long term pain that we are about to experience will bring about the will to make the structural changes we need, clip the wings of the useless financial services industry, single payer (the ONLY cost-cutting that will actually work) health care, FAIR trade with our trading partners (we buy stuff from you ONLY if you buy stuff from us) and so on.

Right now Americans are angry enough the throw out the party that caused the least of the damage but they are not angry enough to DEMAND change. But they will be. When they are hungry.

[TBF]

32. The economy is going along just fine for the capitalists -

"fixing" it for normal folks is going to involve re-thinking capitalism as an economic system.

[oldlib]

33. We need politicians

Who recognize the problem, as you stated, and are willing to force the government controls needed to bring jobs back to the USA.

[RKP5637]

42. Let me add one thing to your statement, which I agree with ...

We need politicians ***who are not bought, paid for and bribed by monied interests.***

[elleng]

34. Exporting Our Way to Stability by Barack Obama

AS the United States recovers from this recession, the biggest mistake we could make would be to rebuild our economy on the same pile of debt or the paper profits of financial speculation. We need to rebuild on a new, stronger foundation for economic growth. And part of that foundation involves doing what Americans have always done best: discovering, creating and building products that are sold all over the world. >>>

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/06/opinion/06obama.html?_r=2&hp

[HughBeaumont]

37. K & R. The bottom line is this . .. .

Capitalism, with the path it now takes, one-sided toward the profit motive only and without care for long-term continuity, fairness or integration, is failing America and holding her hostage.

Both parties seem to be on board with this unfettered crapcake of a system, its thirty-year lack of success be damned. Its sustainability is about as solid as an average person's job security. Its foundation now depends on an outdated plantation format as its blueprint, non-union low-cost labor for its industry and manufacturing and consumer spending with an average wage that cannot keep up with its necessities. Its progress mirrors the rise of the average American wage in real dollars since 1979.

Bottom Line: It's either more laissez-fail trickle-on, or this country's future. And I'm speaking to the voters and owners of BOTH parties on this one.

You wouldn't think this would be that hard a choice.

Tax the rich. End the wars. Subsidize education & health care and shore up your social safety net. Bring manufacturing back to where it was in the post WWII era. Make your nation more equal.

Or die a slow, painful and chaotic death.

[RKP5637]

41. Apparently the voters want a "Or die a slow, painful and chaotic death." 2012 will

give us a pretty good idea IMO of the future for the US over the next generation or two at least.

[opihimoimoi]

39. No one in the GOP will ever fix anything, much less the Nations econ

[oldlib]

44. The Corporation Heads

in this country must know, by now, that outsourcing is not working. They must realize, that producing products off shore, bringing the product to this country, and expecting a healthy economy to buy their product, is insane.

[HughBeaumont]

47. Buying stuff also requires disposable income . . .

. . . and when a person's wage only meets (or flat out doesn't meet) their cost of living . . . well . . .



:shrug:

[Skittles]

69. it's working for THEM

short term financial gain for greedy fucks and the future of America and her people be DAMNED

[Greyhound]

45. There are really a variety of actions that would alleviate this disaster,

but all of them involve halting the looting and getting $$ into the hands of our citizens, and the parasites are having none of that.
:kick: & R

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

50. A consumer economy without consumers isn't going to "recover".

The mistake is that the politicians and economists run the economy, when exactly the reverse is true.

[mstinamotorcity]

52. TOMB- Stone they ass!!!!

Take our money back and tell them to kick rocks. Stop letting them call the shots on how we generate this economy. Don't give repugs your money form a Democratic coalition of business and purchase from each other and gain economic power for the good of the people!!!!!!!!!

[Motown_Johnny]

55. Maybe changing trade policies is the fix

[Catherina]

56. There's no fix to Capitalism on its deathbed. Painful but true. n/t

[OlympicBrian]

63. There's serious concern the economy is "broken"; from a noted economist

(My comments first, the "Chamber" refers to the US Chamber of Commerce.)

"US corporatocracy" - the system of government that serves the interests of, and is essentially run by, corporations. It primarily seeks to further ties between government and business--where corporations, multi-national corporations, conglomerates, and private parties including political organizations and highly-paid corporate executives are the primary controls, and are the elite. Areas of control rely on direction and governance often tied to contrived (sometimes fearsome) mass-media visages of elements, ideas, and persons within the country. Within the corporatocracy, objective news reporting is hard to find. The system depends on highly-paid "pundits" for dissemination of major themes.

...

Not surprisingly, in the corporatocracy, unemployment is high even during boom periods where corporate profits are rich and the stock market is high, because of a reliance on offshoring and offshore investment. The corporations always seek out what's known in economic terms as "absolute advantage," which in lay terms means "utter selfishness and disregard for the rest of the US." The US tax base is eroded as a consequence (those that profit the most aren't taxed), and the federal debt climbs quickly. Congress acts in lockstep with the Chamber...the President has limited powers...and the judicial branch has been swayed to serve the Chamber. So the Chamber has a lock-down on the three branches of government. In summary--the big money, influence, and decisions flow through the Chamber and its biggest corporate constituents, while the three branches of US government are merely tools.
...

(Full text, thread, link below)

(Next, a piece written by a former editor of the Wall Street Journal, whose comments were recently censored. WSJ is owned by Murdoch, same as Fox News.)

America’s job losses are permanent
By Paul Craig Roberts
Online Journal Contributing Writer

Oct 29, 2010, 00:22

Now that a few Democrats and the remnants of the AFL-CIO are waking up to the destructive impact of jobs offshoring on the US economy and millions of American lives, globalism’s advocates have resurrected Dartmouth economist Matthew Slaughter’s discredited finding of several years ago that jobs offshoring by US corporations increases employment and wages in the US.

At the time I exposed Slaughter’s mistakes, but economists dependent on corporate largess understood that it was more profitable to drink Slaughter’s Kool-Aid than to tell the truth. Recently the US Chamber of Commerce rolled out Slaughter’s false argument as a weapon against House Democrats Sandy Levin and Tim Ryan, and the Wall Street Journal had Bill Clinton’s Defense Secretary, William S. Cohen, regurgitate Slaughter’s claim on its op-ed page on October 12.

I sent a letter to the Wall Street Journal, but the editors were not interested in what a former associate editor and columnist for the paper and President Reagan’s Assistant Secretary of the Treasury for Economic Policy had to say. The facade of lies has to be maintained at all costs. There can be no questioning that globalism is good for us.

...

The claim that jobs offshoring by US corporations increases domestic employment in the US is one of the greatest hoaxes ever perpetrated.

More...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x9425839

[Skittles]

68. as long as they keep pimping off jobs to the lowest overseas bidders

the economy will keep going down, down, down

[mmonk]

70. It can but the billionaire globalists have no interest beyond their own.

And if you haven't noticed, they control US politics.

[blindpig]

71. There is no fixing capitalism.

The condition of recurrent crisis is endemic to capitalism. To deal with this capital resorts to technical fixes which only serve to set up the next, bigger crisis. The problem is systemic.