I'm getting sick of Obama's moving the goalposts routine, which he's now using with the tax cuts.

[coti]

Some months back he "took a stand" by swearing up and down that he would not allow Social Security to be privatized. That was his spin on what will likely become, eventually, his allowing Social Security benefits to be cut, or the retirement age to be raised, or some other rearrangement of the program's deck chairs.

Now his mighty fortress of conviction stands on not making the top 2% Bush tax cuts PERMANENT. Before this "bold" statement, we'd already approved making the middle class tax cuts permanent in our national political dialogue, and the debate was still open on whether we would extend- temporarily- the top 2% cuts. It was a pretty foregone, certain conclusion that those top 2% cuts were NOT going to be made permanent.

But here he is, the amazing leader Obama, putting out this statement today, and, from the positive reactions in the LBN thread on it, doing a pretty good job of making Democrats feel better about his failure.


Another thing: Obama- learn how to negotiate! Stick to JUST the middle-class tax cuts, and have the temporary 2% tax cuts be your fallback. NOW the GOP is going to be pushing to make those cuts permanent.

[derby378]

1. You and me both

Dammit, President Obama, grow a pair. We're counting on you!

[BzaDem]

2. I think Obama would rather veto all tax cut extensions than sign a bill making the wealthy ones

permanent.

I guess we shall see.

[liberalmuse]

3. I'm sorry - the guy's been straight up so far.

He will do the right thing.

[grahamhgreen]

68. "An additional step we can take to keep insurance companies honest is by making a not-for-profit pub

"An additional step we can take to keep insurance companies honest is by making a not-for-profit public option available," - OBAMA

Straight as a pretzel.

[coti]

4. That's good, and that's a good, positive spin, but that's not the goal,

nor is it what one should lead with in a negotiation.

The goal is to entirely get rid of these ridiculous tax cuts for the rich that are NOT helping our economy.

The middle-class cuts are, obviously, incredibly popular. He should just say that he wants to make them permanent, submit a bill with just them, and make it happen. Keep the focus on that.

[BzaDem]

69. Submit a bill? Did you just say that the President can "submit a bill" to Congress?

:rofl:

[coti]

75. He does it with the budget. Otherwise, he can get a Congressperson

to do it for him.

He has ways of doing it is the point.

[BzaDem]

80. The budget is a plan for future laws. It does not create any US law at all.

"Otherwise, he can get a Congressperson"

Democrats are in the minority in the House. The majority decides what bills to take up. Not the minority.

[coti]

81. Interesting, except that this is being dealt with in the lame duck Congress, before the new year,

while we still have our majority.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-11-06/obama-says-there-s-room-for-compromise-with-congress-on-tax-cut-extension.html

President Barack Obama urged Congress to extend lower income tax rates for the middle class during the lame-duck session of the current Congress and said “there’s room for us to compromise and get it done together.”

In his weekly radio and Internet address, Obama urged Congress to quickly pass a measure that would keep the lower rates for lower- and middle-income taxpayers enacted under President George W. Bush.

“If Congress doesn’t act by New Year’s Eve, middle-class families will see their taxes go up starting on New Year’s Day,” he said.

Republicans and Democrats have different positions on the tax cuts, which were enacted in 2001 and 2003 and will expire Dec. 31 unless Congress acts. Obama favors extending them for families earning as much as $250,000, while letting the lower rates for the wealthiest taxpayers expire at year’s end -- an action that he has said will cut the deficit by about $700 billion over 10 years. Most Republicans call for extending all the tax cuts.

Oh yes. As much as you don't want him to be able to do this, he can. He most certainly can.

[BalancedGoat]

8. That's what the Republicans want.

It would be a big step towards making him a 1-term president.

[treestar]

5. Lost us at the first paragraph which shows you are uninformed

misinformed and living in a bubble on the left and have lost track of reality.

[coti]

6. Welp, here's your link:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/08/14/politics/main6772111.shtml

Looks like I was right. He came out against privatization and nothing else.

Unless, of course, you're saying that the "Fiscal Responsibility" Commission isn't going to- one way or another- reduce Social Security benefits.

[treestar]

14. That article says the opposite of what you are speculating about

[coti]

22. Why don't you tell us what YOU think it says- that he won't be cutting Social Security?

Is that what you're saying it's saying?

Cuz I really don't think that's the truth.

[treestar]

57. He accuses the Republicans of that in the article

[JoePhilly]

15. You don't make much sense ...

You PREDICT that Obama will do something horrible ... and claim it will be nothing more that "rearranging the deck chairs" .... ummm ... with THAT framing, you are also claiming that Social Security is about to SINK.

If you think it is about to SINK, then I guess you WANT some one to FIX IT ... and not in some "rearranging the deck chairs" fashion, but something MUCH LARGER.

Which is it? Do you want some major overhaul, which is what your framing would suggest, or would you prefer more modest changes, or none at all.

[coti]

24. The Titanic reference was made with regard to the idea of making cuts.

Which would be a huge, huge mistake.

[BalancedGoat]

7. Not quite sure what you're saying.

Are you saying that he should stand firm on letting the tax cuts for the rich to expire and wait for the Republicans to cede ground? The Republicans are not going to bend. Making the middle class tax cuts permanent while temporarily extending those for the rich would seem like a compromise, but it's really a total loss for the Republicans.

The tax cuts for the middle class were the sweetener that made the Bush tax cuts palatable for the general public. Take those out of the equation and now the Republicans will be forced to take a stand on highly unpopular tax cuts 2 years from now. The have no chance of winning that battle, and they know it.

I consider that result a good thing. But it's important to realize that the GOP isn't going to bend. The President has to sell this to the people in a way that makes them think this is actually a compromise and that the GOP is just being obstructionist, while avoiding the temporary extension becoming the new "middle ground". It's possible, and it's the best way to win this fight, in my opinion.

[coti]

10. I'm saying that, in negotiation, he needs to stick with just the middle-class cuts. Focus on them.

From the position he's taken, they're going to be pushing to make those top 2% cuts permanent.

He not only moved the goalposts to make his failure more palatable, but he's starting from the wrong negotiating position.

[TheKentuckian]

29. Painfully similar argument to let them come up for expiration rather than rescinding the crap

This is just a stupid game of kick the can and keep a dumb, should be long over battle going forever.

Not to mention that keeping any of this crap (beyond the bottom bracket) is generally stupid. We're talking trillions going for bullshit instead of being reinvested into the country with a real multiplier effect and taking care of immediately pressing as well as long term problems with our massive infrastructure and employment deficit.

If it comes down to it I'd rather they all expire and reduce the deficit than to just piss away this much money on essentially nothing broadly beneficial.

[kentuck]

40. Democrats will rue the day they did not listen to you.

It's a simple law of politics:

Democrats raise taxes. Republicans cut taxes. Taxes are for government. The government is for the needs of the people. Pretty damn basic.

[RKP5637]

54. Yep, key words, "a real multiplier effect" as opposed to wealthy tax cuts and more

voodoo economics.

[Skittles]

9. get used to it

[Tx4obama]

11. What I'm getting really sick of is ....

seeing blogs, articles, comments, etc all over the internet bashing and whining about Obama all of the time.
If there were more articles and comments regarding all the good things Obama has done there would have been more people out voting etc.
I'm very disappointed in the attitude towards our President.
Obama never said that the mess we're in would be fixed in the first 20 months.

[grahamhgreen]

70. It's his own fault - why is GITMO still open? What do YOU beilieve in?

[Pisces]

12. I'm sick of stupid posts like these attacking Obama for sneezing the wrong way.

[coti]

13. You know what, you're right. Forgive me for griping about so trivial of an issue as tax policy. nt

[Pisces]

46. I never forgive intentional ignorance.

[coti]

62. What IS your intent, exactly?

Go easy on yourself, though. :evilgrin:

[defendandprotect]

65. Obama has been moving in the wrong direction ... on purpose ... for almost 2 years ....

Try this one -- Rahm "crowing" about what they've done for business and why

they should be "grateful" -- !!!



Here is the quote: ”In a Thursday interview, White House chief of staff Rahm Emanuel argued that rather than recoiling against Obama, business leaders should be grateful for his support on at least a half-dozen counts: his advocacy of greater international trade and education reform open markets despite union skepticism; his rejection of calls from some quarters to nationalize banks during the financial meltdown; the rescue of the automobile industry; the fact that

the overhaul of health care preserved the private delivery system;

the fact that billions in the stimulus package benefited business with lucrative new contracts, and that financial regulation reform will take away the uncertainty that existed with a broken, pre-crash regulatory apparatus.


http://dyn.politico.com/printstory.cfm?uuid=B2F85DDF-18FE-70B2-A835FE1E7FA8D74C


If that doesn't make you ill -- you can't read --

[LostInAnomie]

16. Great, more shitting on Obama.

[asjr]

17. I think Obama knows what he is doing

and it is not to harm this country. I trust him.

[ClarkUSA]

18. Wrong. NYT: Pres. Obama supports "extending only tax rates that apply to incomes below $250,000"

President Obama devoted his weekly address on Saturday to reaffirming his support for extending only the tax rates that apply to incomes below $250,000, and not “for millionaires and billionaires”... Mr. Obama’s assertiveness masked the doubts and indecision that plagued Democrats about the tax issue even before the midterm elections, and caused them to delay a vote until afterward... Some Democrats want to take a stand, win or lose, for any option that could depict Republicans as patrons of the richest taxpayers, at the expense of blocking continued tax cuts for the middle class. Others have no appetite left for combat.

With Mr. Obama on a 10-day trip to Asia and lawmakers scattered to their states, Democrats say any resolution must wait until they regroup in the capital next week for a lame-duck Congressional session that will include those who lost their seats.

The tax issue is likely to dominate that session... Republicans are also unsure how to proceed, since Democrats could block a permanent extension of the Bush tax cuts for the highest incomes, either by their votes or Mr. Obama’s veto.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=433x512152

[coti]

20. Not wrong. Obama's quote:

"At a time when we are going to ask folks across the board to make such difficult sacrifices, I don’t see how we can afford to borrow an additional $700 billion from other countries to make all the Bush tax cuts permanent, even for the wealthiest 2 percent of Americans," the president said. "We’d be digging ourselves into an even deeper fiscal hole and passing the burden on to our children."

[ClarkUSA]

26. Funny how the New York Times story is at odds with your parsing.

:eyes:

[coti]

27. I got that straight out of the LBN thread OP. It's right there.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4603749

[ClarkUSA]

31. What's "right there"?

[coti]

32. Obama's quote. It's in the LBN thread OP, staring you dead in the face. nt

[ClarkUSA]

33. You are parsing Pres. Obama's quote into something to be OUTRAGED about when there's no there there.

[coti]

36. Parsing? It's the whole damned quote. He just told the Republicans he's not willing to make the

top 2% cuts PERMANENT.

That's EXACTLY what he said, no parsing going on whatsoever. That's his starting position for negotiation.

Here's the quote again:

"At a time when we are going to ask folks across the board to make such difficult sacrifices, I don’t see how we can afford to borrow an additional $700 billion from other countries to make all the Bush tax cuts permanent, even for the wealthiest 2 percent of Americans," the president said. "We’d be digging ourselves into an even deeper fiscal hole and passing the burden on to our children."


No parsing, it's right out of that OP.

[ClarkUSA]

37. Your lamenting "sick of Obama's moving the goalposts" OP = parsing of his quote

[sendero]

76. This president has CAPITULATED at almost every ..

...opportunity. I will believe the suspension of the tax cuts for the rich WHEN I SEE IT, and not one second before.

In fact, I would almost BET MONEY that he will FOLD LIKE A PAPER NAPKIN once again.

[grahamhgreen]

71. Funny how the NYT lied us into war.

[grahamhgreen]

73. He is not taking a stand. He is muddling around with vague things that are not firm.

[kentuck]

19. Here is his speech from this morning:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/2010/11/06/weekly-address-priorities-taxes?utm_source=110510&utm_medium=image&utm_campaign=daily

Judge for yourself

[azmouse]

21. ...

[Spazito]

23. Another crappy OP full of misinformation....

same shit, different day.

Unrec.

[coti]

25. What misinformation? Don't just say that and not respond, either. nt

[Spazito]

28. Social Security has NOT been privatized....

and speculation without facts IS misinformation.

[coti]

30. .... I didn't say it was. I said he was moving the goalposts and "taking a stand" on what's already

out of the question- like privatizing Social Security.

Not to mention negotiating incorrectly.

[Spazito]

34. and that's why what you wrote is correctly identified as...

misinformation, seems quite simple to me.

[coti]

35. Are you saying privatizing Social Security is on the table?

In any sense?

Does it have even the SLIGHTEST chance of not being vetoed by Obama?

[Spazito]

42. No, you are saying it is on the table....

by saying the President is moving the goalposts from when he stated Social Security would not be privatized. I am saying you are spreading misinformation. Did you not read your own OP before posting? Let me help you, here are your words:


"Some months back he "took a stand" by swearing up and down that he would not allow Social Security to be privatized. That was his spin on what will likely become, eventually, his allowing Social Security benefits to be cut, or the retirement age to be raised, or some other rearrangement of the program's deck chairs."

[coti]

45. You're totally distorting what I'm saying and the point of the OP. You're not getting it.

I didn't say anything like what you're saying I said, CERTAINLY not that privatizing Social Security is on the table.

My POINT is that it never has been- it hasn't even been an issue, at all. Yet, that's what he took his stand on.

[Spazito]

48. LOL, I posted your OWN words n/t

[coti]

50. LOL- words saying that privatization was never ON table, the ENTIRE POINT OF THE OP

and the complete OPPOSITE of what you're saying I said.

Here are two more words for you: READING COMPREHENSION.

[Spazito]

55. I read it, comprehended it ergo my comment it was disinformation....

your whole OP, starting with the crap on Social Security, is, I repeat, disinformation. The comprehension problem is NOT on my end and to claim otherwise is disingenuous, imo.

I am done kicking your OP, my point has been made repeatedly.

[coti]

56. If you took away from it that SS privatization had been ON the table, you clearly didn't get it. nt

[Name removed]

66. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[apocalypsehow]

88. *Delete*:

Mods handled it. :thumbsup:

[Name removed]

44. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[midnight]

38. One goalpost that should of never been moved was the public option.

"Any plan I sign must include an insurance exchange: a one-stop shopping marketplace where you can compare the benefits, cost and track records of a variety of plans - including a public option to increase competition and keep insurance companies honest - and choose what's best for your family."http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83FvLjsUOJg&feature=player_embedded#!

[coti]

39. Yup. That too. Shouldn't be so easy to forget about. nt

[ClarkUSA]

41. There were not enough votes for it. Too bad so many are clueless about how legislation is passed.

Apparently, some still resent President Obama for not being able to pass laws singlehandedly with a wave of his magic wand.

[coti]

47. I thought the argument was that he never said that. nt

[jpgray]

59. There weren't enough votes for what did get passed--except through reconciliation

[JTFrog]

43. Yea, he should have gone for the 80 yard field goal on 4th down with 40 yards to go.

Or maybe a Hail Mary.

:eyes:

[SeattleGirl]

49. Unrecommended because I don't believe you know what you

are talking about.

:thumbsdown: :thumbsdown: :thumbsdown:

[coti]

51. Since you don't understand, I'll give you the short version:

Obama is going to temporarily extend the top 2% tax cuts, as well as cut Social Security.

When you see both of those things happen, you'll know that I know what I'm talking about. ;)

[SeattleGirl]

52. I'm not stupid.

Please do not imply that I am.

It's insulting and completely unnecessary.

Thank you.

[coti]

53. I'm just responding in kind. nt

[backscatter712]

58. Another low-post-count anti-Obama whiner.

Gee, I wonder which side he's on...

[SeattleGirl]

60. I'll have to think on that one and get back to you,.

:rofl:

[coti]

61. Yeah, these damned infiltrators arguing AGAINST the top 2% tax cuts and cutting SS.

Can't you at least make an on-point argument?

[defendandprotect]

63. This isn't about Obama being dumb and needing lessons in "negotiating" ...

Wish it was ..... !!!

Obama is pro-corporate -- those are the interests he's serving --

not the public's.

Sad to say -- what Obama has said has very little to do with what he does --

As Speaker Pelosi told us qutie some time back ....

"Obama was for a long of things when he was campaigning -- which he is no longer for --- !!"

[coti]

64. Sometimes I think that, other times I think he's just a

really weak leader.

[defendandprotect]

74. Sometimes I think it is very difficult for many DU'ers to

deal with what they are really looking at --

It's been a pro-corporate agenda all the way as far as I can see -- and

Rahm "crowing" about it!!


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=9501297&mesg_id=9502364

[grahamhgreen]

67. I agree 100%. I know it's tough for some here to admit they've been conned - have pity on them.

They'll get it eventually!

[avaistheone1]

72. Now we are supposed to be happy that Obama is outsourcing our jobs to India

Yeah, I know we are supposed to get 56,000 jobs here from India - well that is a drop in the bucket. We have lost I bet more than a million good jobs to India.

[ClarkUSA]

77. Really? Obama is doing that? Where is proof of your claim?

[avaistheone1]

82. I didn't say Obama is doing that.

I said 1,000,000 is approximately the number of American jobs lost to India. And Obama, nor our Congress is fighting to get those jobs back. 56,000 new jobs given to the U.S is chump change.

[Arkana]

84. I refer you to your post:

"Now we are supposed to be happy that Obama is outsourcing our jobs to India"

You don't get to make blanket statements like this without proof. You DID say that Obama is outsourcing jobs. It's right there in plain English. Prove it, otherwise you just look like another impotent Obama hater.

[avaistheone1]

87. I stand by all my posts in this thread.

Do you really think that more American jobs are not going to be sent to India? Obama took 200 corporate business leaders on his trip. I am sure those business people were there just to sample the curry. :crazy: I remember this same Democratic state of denial when NAFTA was foisted upon us by Bill Clinton.

I believe the number of jobs to the US (as a result of purchases from India) will be FAAAAAAAAAR outweighed by the number of jobs which have been outsourced to India todate and going forward - particularly as a result of this trip. Stay tuned and we will see who is right. For the sake of our country I hope you are, but I strongly doubt it. This whole trip feels like NAFTA on steroids to me.

[Ramulux]

78. He thinks we are stupid

Obama seems to honestly think that his base will believe anything and not pay attention to the inconsistencies of his positions. Its getting really fucking old. You dont have to be a genius to tell when someone is saying something different than what they said before. I cant listen to Obama anymore because sadly I dont believe a word he says.

[coti]

79. I'm not sure he thinks it, but he's definitely relying in some ways on it. nt

[Arkana]

83. Um, Social Security has not been cut and in all likelihood will not be.

You are shooting at phantoms and you look foolish doing it.

[coti]

85. All of the signals Obama is giving say that benefits will be reduced in one way or another.

He likes to say that he would prefer to do it in a different way, like by raising the cap, but he usually follows that up with a "but it probably won't work out that way" type of statement.

It may not be an outright reduction of cash benefits, or raising the retirement age, but they're gonna do something that makes less money, over time, go to SS's beneficiaries.

[apocalypsehow]

89. Delighted to UnRec. n/t.

[coti]

90. But of course. Any actual response? Anything, other than that, to say, at all, about this? nt

[apocalypsehow]

86. I've said all I have to say about this OP. n/t.