Can totalitarian fascism happen in the USA ?

[steve2470]

Poll question: Can totalitarian fascism happen in the USA ?

Just curious for your thoughts, thank you kindly.

[baldguy]

1. Have you been awake the last ten years?

[steve2470]

2. I'm worried and hope we Americans are too smart and active politically for this nt

[uncommon]

3. Ha. "We" Americans probably are - "most" Americans, no.

Most Americans don't pay that much attention.

[Doctor_J]

16. Step 1 - wake up

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=9500733&mesg_id=9505113

[baldguy]

22. All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.

This is a country where half the voters - HALF - picked George W Bush. TWICE!

A quarter think Sarah Palin would make a good President.

They think it's OK to torture whoever The Leader says is our enemy & drop bombs on people who bear America no ill.

They think nothing of suppressing the peoples' right to vote if it would favor the political enemies, and think if they lose then the election invalid by definition.

And a very large percentage would eagerly & without a thought vote for a candidate who wrapped themself in the flag and carried a cross. That's what the GOP plans to do.

[MindandSoul]

25. The German were very smart. . . .Hitler did it!

I visited the Holocaust museum in DC last weekend (since I was there a day early for the Jon Stewart rally), and it reminded me of the process/mind set/economic climate that started the whole disaster.

The Right has often said that "socialists" started the whole process, and have accused Obama of being a "new Hitler."
Well, in fact, it is the German extreme Right that went after the socialist party, then the unions, and ended up brainwashed by Hitler's belief in "White supremacy!"

This seems much, much too familiar these days. . .

[nadinbrzezinski]

70. Americans for the most part will not notice

active politically? Son have you checked voting rates lately?

Americans care for their shit on TV, not who's up or down in DC.

We are this close to it already

[polichick]

5. More than ten years - it started with Reagan. nt

[HopeHoops]

4. Wrapped in a US flag and carrying a bible.

[polichick]

6. Dead on. Who said that originally?

[Flubadubya]

8. Here ya go...

Sinclair Lewis: How Fascism Will Come To America (1935)

“When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross.”

[polichick]

9. Thank-you! nt

[mix]

28. A great quote for 1935,

when fascist parties were on the rise worldwide. Today, that quote is an anachronism. Capitalism is our totalitarianism.

[Greyhound]

39. The only difference is semantics, you can insert any 'ism' you like but it

always comes back to authoritarianism. The Soviets called themselves Communists, Pinochet called his regime Capitalist, they all pretend that there is some need for "order" that justifies their murder and looting sprees.

Just like us.

[mix]

48. There are fundamental differences in styles of authoritarianism

that make it unlikely that fascism will be our fate. Are there fascist elements within our democracy? Yes, but they are on the fringe. The ideologies that so many call "fascism" are the tenor and tendencies of predatory capitalism.

[OrwellwasRight]

90. Not exactly.

Capitalism, as such, does not require torture, degradation of the right of habeas corpus and against unreasonable search and seizure. Nor does it require demonizing of gays and women who have abortions. In America, the capitalist, kleptocratic class has found it advantageous to foment a jingoistic, hate-mongering religious hysteria that, unchecked, will lead to fascism. There are plenty of 'Murikens ready to don the brown shirts and rid the country of evil lib'ruls if only they had the right encouragement and cover to do so.

[mix]

100. Really?

Historically, what you claim capitalism doesn't need to perpetuate itself are exactly the elements that sustain it: torture, violence, theft, environmental destruction, cultural annihilation, war.

Manifest Destiny, the Indian Wars, the Philippines, Nicaragua, Chile, Argentina, Abu Ghraib, Bagram, Gitmo.

This is capitalism, not fascism.

[OrwellwasRight]

110. you have your politics and eonomics confused

there was no profit in Abu Grhaib. And I don't think I mentioned anything about environmental destruction or theft. of course capitalism is theft. Property is theft. but that doesn't mean you have to torture people to sustain it.

[Myrina]

7. ... is this a rhetorical question?

:shrug:

[steve2470]

10. I want to know your personal opinion nt

[mix]

11. No.

Totalitarian capitalism is already here.

[Cirque du So-What]

15. Yep

All that remains is tying up the loose ends. We now have government of the corporation, by the corporation, and for the corporation.

[TexasProgresive]

75. Hey!

That was my late Dad's saying. Did you come up with that on your own or read it somewhere. My Dad read so much it was hard for him to even know if he was being original or not.

He also called the culture within corporations, Corporate Communism. If you think about it most corporations run like a totalitarian government.

[Cirque du So-What]

89. I'm not sure if I read it somewhere

or if I came up with it on my own. When you've been devouring political writing for as long as I have, the lines become less distinct.

[TexasProgresive]

104. Yeah that's true.

I often wonder if people who read massive amounts of stuff are at times unwittingly plagiarists.

My late mother was a musician and a mathematician. Her first study was music with leaning to composition. She told me that she was working on a composition assignment when she realized she was using the melody line of some pop hit.

[dixiegrrrrl]

32. Yep.

[steve2470]

12. You "no" voters, please explain your position

I think the "yes" vote has been explained on DU many times.

[Cirque du So-What]

20. Don't hold your breath

Taking the contrary position - anonymously - is simple. You won't find the conviction among those who wear blinders to the plight in which the residents of this nation find ourselves.

[steve2470]

21. I think you're correct

I would, however, really like to see a full-throated no vote, complete with facts and sources, etc. I guess I can dream.

[mix]

24. Fascism, while a great political slur, is historically specific,

and not relevant to the USA as a way to understand our history and the present.

Racism against Blacks, Asians, Native Americans, white supremacy, imperial expansion, glorification of war, anxieties about "racial" decline...all these predate the fascisms of the 20s and 30s and are quintessentially American.

Fascism also elevated the state, as the embodiment of the nation's collective will, above all other sectors of society. In the US, it is the corporation (there is no correlation, btw, between the corporatism of Mussolini and our corporate dominated economy and democracy) and the wealthy who are exalted.

Twisting Robert Paxton's words, as many do here, to "prove" the USA is a fascist state or by posting that laundry list of supposed fascist principles are both academically dishonest and wrong.

Capitalism is our problem, not fascism.

[Parker CA]

52. Terrific post. Concise and informative. You seem to have nailed it perfectly. nt

[Dreamer Tatum]

62. The US is too big, too diverse, too decentralized for any '-ism' to be imposed.

And our political and economic institutions are predicated on free access to capital, despite what anyone thinks.

[OrwellwasRight]

93. Free access to capital?

Free? Sounds like socialism to me.

[dkofos]

13. You're living it now.

[mix]

33. What we're living now is good old fashion predatory capitalism, American style.

There is no one party rule, there is no worship of the state, there is no racialized scapegoat, there is no talk of Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Führer...

[verges]

86. Have you seen the Teaprters?

They constanly refer to their "America"= Reich nd worship of the state. They constantly refer to "The People"= Ein Volk. Give them another RW POTUS (and it will happen) you may very well have ein Fuhrer. It's getting pretty close.

[mix]

102. This is hyperbole.

Teabaggers are indeed a threat to democracy in every way, but they do not conflate, as you do, "America" with the state. In fact they are anti-state like most rightwingers. "America" is this mystical nationalist trope for them, a fantasy of white purity and exclusion. Predatory capitalism is a far greater threat to this country than fringe extremists.

[Dreamer Tatum]

63. Yet we are all free to do as we please...wow, man, that's bad-ass totalitarianism.

Give me a motherfucking break.

[dkofos]

73. Are you German??

[Dreamer Tatum]

77. We went from reclaiming our democracy in Nov. 2008 to totalitarian fascism in Nov. 2010

Yet you and I are doing exactly as we please now, and have done so for our entire lives, and will continue to do so.

I can only assume that you regard Obama is a fascist totalitarian, and of course I beg to differ.

You have no idea what totalitarian society is like. None.

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JitterbugPerfume]

17. look around, Steve

Citizens United just kicked us over the edge

thanks to The Supreme Court .

[Cirque du So-What]

18. Why are the denialists so reticent?

I'd like to hear the 'reasoning' that underlies a compulsion to vote 'no' on this issue. At the risk of triggering a Pythonesque reenactment of The Argument Clinic sketch, dissent requires more than the gainsaying of the opposite position. You've seen fit to cast a vote, so why remain silent? What - in thy mind - dost thou have? Anything at all?

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

19. Other.

Can it be stopped?

[Creative]

23. No, America is a well-armed country.

[steve2470]

31. Can you expand on your thoughts, please ? Thank you kindly nt

[Creative]

42. What I am saying is that Americans are serious about protecting their liberties.

There are approximately 150 million gun owners in this country; and they own approximately 260 million guns. This militia has insured us against totalitarian fascism for 220 years and it will continue to do so into the foreseeable future.

[Warren Stupidity]

46. That explains the Great Uprising after the Patriot Act was passed.

Oh wait...

[Creative]

55. Actually, I believe parts of the Patriot Act were ruled unconstitutional.

No need to shoot yet.

[Warren Stupidity]

60. right - of course.

keep dreaming.

[OrwellwasRight]

94. And Bush was ruled President.

That's hardly a test. A right-wing biased Supreme Court can rule anything it wants. That doesn't make it OK and doesn't mean people should just accept it.

[Yeshuah Ben Joseph]

87. And if the fascists in this country openly declared themselves to be so

...guess which side the NRA would be on. Along with anyone who believes their bullshit. Which is probably 3/4 of the gun nuts. Certainly would apply to anyone who decided it was "time to stock up on ammo" the minute a black man entered the White House.

[Doctor_J]

36. Yeah, how many shots have been fired AGAINST the fascists?

:shrug:

[Creative]

43. If you are suggesting that Obama is a fascist--I do not concur with your assessment.

[Doctor_J]

49. No, you said that US will never be fascist because we are well-armed

In fact,the fascists have taken over without a single shot being fired at them. Not one screaming teabagger, not one stomping teabagger, not one teabagging politician, not one hate radio star or Cable "News" host has been killed, wounded, or even shot at. So your statement that we won't be taken over by fascists because we're "well-armed" has been shown to be nonsense.

[Creative]

53. As long as we are free to vote, there is no need to shoot.

Try canceling elections and see what happens.

[Doctor_J]

58. so your post about never being fascist because we're armed was..

what?

[nadinbrzezinski]

72. I suggest you get familiar with this

14. Fraudulent elections

Elections in the form of plebiscites or public opinion polls were usually bogus. When actual elections with candidates were held, they would usually be perverted by the power elite to get the desired result. Common methods included maintaining control of the election machinery, intimidating and disenfranchising opposition voters, destroying or disallowing legal votes, and, as a last resort, turning to a judiciary beholden to the power elite.

http://www.ellensplace.net/fascism.html

[OrwellwasRight]

95. Your argument in non-historical. Hitler was voted in.

Rose to power without a revolution. The people were "free to vote."

Wow. Seems like you have a lot of faith in authority. Don't you see that is how a fascist takeover will happen? There will be no need to forcibly wrest control from the haves because the haves are the ones in charge in a fascist government.

[Art_from_Ark]

111. Actually, Hitler was never voted in

His party won barely more than 1/3 of the seats in parliament in the 1932 elections, but Hitler himself ran against Paul von Hindenburg in the 1932 presidential election and lost by a substantial margin (53-37%). Unfortunately, von Hindenburg appointed Hitler Chancellor a few months later, and Hitler used that office to seize power.

[HopeHoops]

44. Yes, but not all of the "well-armed" are fascists. There are those of us who care about the U.S.

And some of us are armed. I hope it never again comes to needing to use weapons to defend our country from within, but the right to do so is not restricted to extremist morons.

[Creative]

56. I concur.

[L0oniX]

66. Yea ...we all have missiles, tanks and F18's to fight back with.

[nadinbrzezinski]

71. So was Iraq for the record under Sadam... just saying

AK-47s and everything...

[Caliman73]

76. That is true.

There was a very active resistance movement in Germany as well, but it had relatively little impact on the situation. I own firearms, but I understand that if the government really wants to take them from me, they will not have too difficult a time even if I chose not to surrender them peacefully.

[nadinbrzezinski]

79. Yeah but the myth that since we are well armed...

still lives.

part of the american creed, and as applicable in the real world as John Wayne applying street justice in how many movies? The real "wild" west was very different than any Wayne movie, but don't tell that to people... it is like a revelation...

[Caliman73]

74. There are quite a number of armed liberal or moderate Democrats

But you have to be very naive to think that every armed citizen would line up to fight a fascist government. The majority of people who own firearms would likely back the government as long as their agenda was being promoted. Fear of the "other", the non Christian, the foreign, the gay, the liberal socialist, those would be strong pulls for the right wing to back a fascist regime.

People are typically willing to give up liberty in exchange for something they think they are going to get like say...security? Think about that the next time you fly, after the TSA has just run their hands all over you, your wife, and your children's bodies. At least you'll be safe though...right?

[glinda]

26. Note that they can allow people to die without the Chambers as they cut services, Medicaid, HC,

allow toxins from fracking, etc..... and a list too long to mention now happening.
They do not have to personally and literally kill by their own hands directly and now can ease their conscience by not watching it. Just do it this way to feel less guilt and justify it.

[blue sky at night]

27. I suggest another poll...

Can totalitarian fascism be stopped in the USA ?

[TheKentuckian]

29. For some it just ain't fascism unless there's a guy with a funny mustache running the show

[OrwellwasRight]

96. You said it.

:thumbsup: :hi:

[taterguy]

30. Anything could happen, but totalitarian fascism isn't likely

It's not really good for bidness in the long run which is what this country is all about.

[mix]

35. The economy serves the state in fascist systems.

In capitalist states like our own, the economy is based on private interests and profit.

Fascism isn't good for the accumulating classes, at all.

[miscsoc]

68. In practice it is.

In actually existing fascism in Italy, or in Nazi Germany if you want to include that, in practice economic power was left in the hands of the existing elite. The initial RHETORIC of fascism - corporatism and all of that - definitely involved taking power away from the capitalist oligarchy but in practice this was never implemented at anything more than a superficial level.

Mussolini's regime was certainly very good for the accumulating classes, apart from his foreign policy . I know less about the economy of Nazi Germany but I'm pretty sure that there too, the "socialism" in Nazi socialism was pretty much non existent.

[mix]

78. State's protecting oligarchies is nothing new and not

uniquely fascist. The contemporary USA is an example. Italy and Germany were in varying degrees industrialized states...they needed the oligarchs to fund and feed their war machines. In turn, the state promised it would protect them from the threats of the destitute masses, ie communism. Profits were secondary, state and party goals were primary. Fascist states simply would not accept capital to pursue its own ends, namely private profit, because this diverged from ideological goals of national rebirth and collective will. If some got rich, this hardly seems surprising. But their interests could never surpass those of the state and party.

[miscsoc]

81. well

<i>Profits were secondary, state and party goals were primary</i>

I'm just not sure if this is true, at least in the case of Italy. A lot of the original (i.e. Italian) fascist goals were explicitly anti capitalist, but in power, the "fascism-regime" (as opposed to the old "fascism-movement") almost without exception sacrificed ideological goals to the interests of the oligarchs. National rebirth and collective will were never concepts that really drove Mussolini's domestic policies so much as the interests of the existing elite which invited him into power. Warmongering arguably did, mind you, which is much of the reason why he was thrown out in the end.

I'm less confident of my understanding of Germany, though.

Here's an interesting link re: Italy and the difference between fascism-movement and fascism-regime: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renzo_De_Felice

[miscsoc]

82. well

<i>Profits were secondary, state and party goals were primary</i>

I'm just not sure if this is true, at least in the case of Italy. A lot of the original (i.e. Italian) fascist goals were explicitly anti capitalist, but in power, the "fascism-regime" (as opposed to the old "fascism-movement") almost without exception sacrificed ideological goals to the interests of the oligarchs. National rebirth and collective will were never concepts that really drove Mussolini's domestic policies so much as the interests of the existing elite which invited him into power. Warmongering arguably did, mind you, which is much of the reason why he was thrown out in the end.

I'm less confident of my understanding of Germany, though.

Here's an interesting link re: Italy and the difference between fascism-movement and fascism-regime: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renzo_De_Felice

edit: actually a pretty crappy link, but if you google his name around you'll get the gist of the distinction.

[OrwellwasRight]

97. Right . . . like IG Farben and Volkwagen didn't get rich under Hitler.

Are you serious?

[mix]

101. As long as they conformed to the state and party's goals, of course they did.

Pursuing profits that were contrary to the objectives of Nazism was not tolerated.

[Davis_X_Machina]

34. *Can* happen anywhere. Won't happpen here, though.

Think Singapore, scaled up, with a little nationalist rah-rah -- that doesn't actually work at the city-state level.

It'd be much better for business than a balls-to-the-wall fascism. We have foreign investors to keep happy.

[DailyGrind51]

37. Truman warned against the danger of liars in public office.

"Richard Nixon is a no good, lying bastard. He can lie out of both sides of his mouth at the same time, and if he ever caught himself telling the truth, he'd lie just to keep his hand in."

Harry S. Truman

[bemildred]

38. The public has to be disarmed first.

You can't have a totalitarian state where the public is well armed.

(I am not a "gun nut", I'm just pointing out the facts. Genuine oppression requires that the oppressed be unable to resist.)

[taterguy]

45. The fact that citizens have guns would just make the task messier

Do I need to cite all the examples of well-armed groups that were taken down?

[bemildred]

105. Sort of like Afghanistan? Or Iraq?

The USA is a lot bigger than Iraq. And I mean we are talking "Totalitarian State" here, not merely even "occupation", but "Totalitarian State". I mean we did have a Civil War, very messy, but it wasn't ever even close to "Totalitarian State". Hmmm ...

[Warren Stupidity]

50. The public is not 'well armed' in any sense other than

a pre 1900's arming. Idiots with rifles are not going to get in the way a modern military force.

But that is irrelevant anyway and assumes that the totalitarian state slowly birthing around the shell of our republic will be opposed by the populace. It won't.

[Doctor_J]

51. bullshit

see reply #49. As long as the gun owners think that simply owning a gun makes them "free", all of their guns will not prevent fascism from obtaining.

[Individualist]

54. Try standing up against military armament when you only have guns.

[and-justice-for-all]

40. and dont forget the theocracy...nt

[Denninmi]

41. I think we're 90% of the way there now.

I guess at this point, it's just a question of what method of execution they'll use on me and millions of people like me -- gas chambers, firing squads, drugging us and dropping us into the ocean like the Argentine Junta did on it's death flights.

I hope its quick. I'm sure it won't be painless.

[immune]

47. Been there, done that.

Fascism - Definition

Benito Mussolini and Adolf HitlerFascism (in Italian, fascismo), capitalized, refers to the right-wing authoritarian political movement which ruled Italy from 1922 to 1943 under the leadership of Benito Mussolini. The word fascism (uncapitalized) has come to mean any political stance or system of government resembling Mussolini's, as further discussed below.

The word comes from fascio (plural: fasci), which may mean "bundle", as in a political or militant group or a nation, but also from the fasces (rods bundled around an axe), which were an ancient Roman symbol of the authority of magistrates. The Italian 'Fascisti' were also known as Black Shirts for their style of uniform incorporating a black shirt (see: political colour).

http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Fascism

Magistrates with the final word on everything? Black shirts with the hems let down?

[SargeUNN]

57. Depends a lot on what you define Fascism as

I would say by what I consider the foundation of Fascism as, and considering the defination from Mussolini "The Father of Fascism" most certainly we are seeing a strong Fascist power grab that is a hybrid of Fascism. Remember you don't have to have an exact match, just the basis of it. Hitler's Nazism was based on fascism but had it's own unique features and just because one doesn't say it is fascism, all you have to do is look and see if it meets the fundamentals.

[Diclotican]

59. steve2470

steve2470

Before 2000, No today, posible. Maybe more than posible..

Diclotican

[SOS]

61. The Congress must obey the diktats of Wall Street

We have already entered a strange new form of economic dictatorship where the voice of the people
is snuffed out by powerful economic interests.

From the 14 Points of Fascism:

"Members of the economic elite were often pampered by the political elite to ensure a continued mutuality of interests,
especially in the repression of “have-not” citizens."

[Better Believe It]

64. Yes. The seeds are being planted. But, the rich don't need fascism to protect their rule now.

They are doing very well, better than ever, within the present political system.

[miscsoc]

67. I think this is the key point here.

When fascism came to power in the early twentieth century, it was funded/accepted by the rich as the most credible means to avoid any sort of radical social democracy or communism. More efficient methods of social control have since been devised that make fascism obsolete for the moment as a method of maintaining oligarchic rule. Why would anyone with money and power take the risk of opposing the whole American quasi-constitutional system when they are doing so well within it?

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

65. No... why would it need to?

Our system does a sophisticated job of providing similar results in a more stable framework.

[Blue_In_AK]

69. I agree with you.

They really don't need to get heavy-handed when everyone goes along so well with the program, just like sheep.

[Better Believe It]

80. But when that stability breaks down and mass resistance to their rule develops you

will see them turn toward fascism in order to defeat any social rebellions.

It would be fought out in the streets.

We are talking about a civil war that could go either way.

The second civil war in American history.

And both would be based upon class.

In the first it was the rising, progressive industrial capitalist class against the old slavocracy that stood in the way and retarded capitalist development, nation building and imperial conquest.

[miscsoc]

84. The scary prospect for me is...

What if the elite can actually prevent the subjugated classes from rebelling by controlling the way they think about the world? What if the psychological techniques are at this point so sophisticated that they can keep things going as they are indefinitely?

[Better Believe It]

92. We also have communication methods that were not available to us just a few decades ago.

[laylah]

83. CAN it?

We have been experiencing it since Coup 2000!

Jenn

[Occam Bandage]

85. Probably not. Who would want it?

The current American system does a fantastic job of rewarding those who are already wealthy and powerful, and does a comparably good job of keeping the poor and powerless either distracted or convinced that their natural allies are their mortal enemies. Who would want to replace that with an unstable, inefficient, violence-dependent state? We live in the best of all possible worlds for the wealthy.

[AlinPA]

103. Good point, but the hatred for non-white, gays, the educated "intellectuals", and non-Christians

by the right-wing is an important factor now. The last election shows how inspired they are, driven by the hatred of the black man in the White House and the fervor of the fundamentalist-evangelical republicans. With the increased flow of money due to the SC ruling, they can sell just about anyone and any lie, especially with the media on their side and a dumbed down electorate.

[mwooldri]

88. Can happen? Sure - look at Germany in 1933. Will it?

That's another question entirely.

A totalitarian fascist regime could arise in any country in the world, given the correct ingredients.

It's a bit like asking, can man land on the moon again? It's happened once, it can happen again. Will it happen in the very near future? Nope.

[Bravo Zulu]

91. You betcha!

[WillyT]

98. Yes... And There Are Many In This Country...

not a majority, but enough...

to make the 1920's/1930's Germans look like fucking Boy-Scouts.

:evilfrown:

[AlinPA]

99. Yes. Easily now. The tee-vee is the perfect tool and the dumbing down of America is full blown now

People like Rand Paul, Marco Rubio and Sarah Palin are playing well with a lot of Americans and with the big money and big media pushing the populist message, it will be a cakewalk for them.

I realize it's just a novel, but Sinclair Lewis's book "It Can't Happen Here" is being played out by Palin. All the characters and messages are there.


Edited to add: Also the right-wing is very angry and their hatred for Hispanics, gay people, educated people "intellectuals" and immigrants is at a dangerous level.

[Bucky]

106. Think about all the stuff that could've gone bad with the Patriot Act. So how come it didn't?

What happened was that the librarian stood up and fought it. I don't think, in the end, a majority of our conservatives have it in them to go fascist. They can be suckered by electoral charletans, but in the end they value liberty more than we usually like to admit around here.

[HughMoran]

107. Seems more likley now than when Bush was President. The right has gotten 10x as nuts

People voting for mentally ill "2nd amendment remedy" candidates is getting pretty damned close if you ask me.

[Odin2005]

108. Totalitarianism is uncessary, the Elites can control peoples minds via the Mass Media, now.

[Kablooie]

109. 'It Can't Happen Here' by Sinclair Lewis -- 1935

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/It_Can't_Happen_Here

It Can't Happen Here is a semi-satirical American political novel by Sinclair Lewis published in 1935 by Doubleday, Doran. Its plot centers around newspaperman Doremus Jessup's struggle against the fascist regime of President Berzelius "Buzz" Windrip.

[old mark]

112. Why not? The corporations seem to want us there, and so does Ruch Limbaugh,

so I guess that means we are going there sooner or later.

mark