Stanford sure has no friends in that Texas prison

[malaise]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1327421/Cricket-tycoon-Allen-Stanford-beaten-jail-inmates-awaits-trial.html?ito=feeds-newsxml#ixzz14brusC2J
<snip>
Bloodied and bruised, this is the shocking picture of cricket tycoon Allen Stanford after a beating by jail inmates.

His neck in a brace, his eye bleeding and half-closed and his head bandaged.

The final humiliation for Stanford, 60, awaiting trial accused of masterminding a $7billion fraud, was his feet and hands were shackled as he was taken to hospital.





These prisons are more like torture chambers for persons awaiting trial and while I detest the bastard, this cannot be right.

[jgraz]

1. Gimme a minute... I'm trying to work up some sympathy

Nope, not yet.

[cliffordu]

2. Me neither...

:shrug:

[malaise]

6. Then you contradict your own signature line

if you know what I mean.

[cliffordu]

96. Why, cause he got his ass kicked?

It's got nothing to do with gay rights AFAIK -

Is he a rat?

If it's routine prison violence then tough shit.

Maybe he should have stayed out of prison.

Maybe he shouldn't have financially killed the thousands he did.

Gay or not, he is still a criminal predator and that's prison.

Bummer.

[Bucky]

132. For the record, he's not gay. He's quite the hound dog, actually. Four kids by six women. Now...

The disconnect between your posts and your sig line, in case you don't get it, is that you at least seem to be in favor of human rights. In a decent society, we don't sneer acceptance at prisoners being physically brutalized. That was what was so morally abhorrent about conservatives applauding the abuses at Guantanamo & Abu Ghraib.

I mean, yes, terrible things happen in prison, and in all likelihood "Sir" Allen's douchebaggery probably played a role in his comeuppance. That said, it's more than just boorish to derive satisfaction from seeing this fraudster get pummeled. Enjoying it, as you seem to, is downright inhumane and illiberal. You should be a better person than that.

[leftynyc]

134. 4 kids from six women?

HOw does that work? For the record, I think what happened to him was hideous - that it happens every day to inmates doesn't really make me feel any better.

[Bucky]

135. Near as I can tell from the Wikipedia article, it's one each by two wives & 2 each by two mistresses

So, yes, even his family is shaped like a Ponzi scheme.

[Marengo]

25. And what is your stand on brutality, condemn or condone? N/T

[jgraz]

27. My stand is that as long as it happens to anyone, put Allen Stanford at the front of the line.

How much of his ill-gotten billions did he spend on helping the brutalized? I'm guessing zero.

[Marengo]

29. Great! Another one for the "pro" column

:eyes:

[jgraz]

32. And we'll put you in the "incapable of nuanced thought" column

:eyes: x 2

[Marengo]

38. No middle ground on this issue my friend

Either for or against, and your "nuance" excuse is a cop out. You're fine with it, so long as it happens to the folks you disapprove of. You know, just as the other side thinks.

I realize being a progressive is hard work, but consistency is important if we wish our ideology to be regarded seriously.

[jgraz]

40. Either with us or agin' us, eh?

Now where have I heard that before? :eyes:

[Marengo]

43. On the issue of torture and brutality? Yep.

But you're not apparently, and that's very telling about your commitment to the progressive ideal.

[jgraz]

46. You and I have a very different idea of what progressive ideals are

Most of the active progressive that I know do not believe in unilateral disarmament -- no matter what the issue is. If Allen Stanford getting his ass beat calls attention to the problem, well that's a price I'm willing to pay.

[Marengo]

52. No matter how you want to spin it, the torture of ANY human being

is not defensible under any circumstances to the true progressive. The only difference between you and those on the other side that advocate torture is merely who is being tortured and to what end. True, you don't openly celebrate this particular incident, but you sure find a way to justify it.

Torture is never justifiable. That's it, that's all there is to say

[cliffordu]

100. Thanks for the lecture on what true progressives are!!!

and what, exactly, have you done to curb prison violence??

Hmmm??

:hurts:

Apparently the wrong stance gets you out of the true progressives club.

THE FIRST RULE OF THE TRUE PROGRESSIVES CLUB IS THAT YOU DO NOT TALK ABOUT THE TRUE PROGRESSIVES CLUB!!!!

[Marengo]

125. Step One (which we can all easily take): Condemn prison violence

No matter who it happens to, even guys like this. You gonna step up, or excuse it without actually saying you don't mind brutality so long as the victims are the "right" folk.

Umm, yeah...how one reacts to this sort of incident does indicate just how strong the commitment is to progressivism.

[cliffordu]

126. Yep. I like sitting around the campfire stroking myself and

marveling at my wonderful stances and how progressive they are.

:hurts:

Teh stuupid burns

[Name removed]

136. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

139. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Marengo]

55. By the way, this individual was "disarmed".

Not sure why you would mention "unilateral disarmament" in the context of this discussion.

[apocalypsehow]

80. You and 99.9% of the progressive world have a vastly different idea of what progressive ideals are.

Curious, that.

[LanternWaste]

129. Sometimes it actually is a zero sum/either-or question.

Sometimes it actually is a zero sum/either-or question, regardless of whether that concept's been played incorrectly in the past.

[gratuitous]

103. Not that you need me to tell you

But you're correct.

[bluestateguy]

3. This has me very concerned

how much taxpayer money was spent on his government run health care?

I do not condone this attack.


But notice I didn't say I condemned it either.

[Marengo]

13. In regard to brutality and torture

you're either for it or against it. There is no middle ground on this issue. By not condemning it, you have place yourself in the "pro" category. Also, the spirit of public health care is equal access and quality for EVERYONE, including criminals of all categories.

[siligut]

56. Black and white thinking, here and in the real world, there are shades of gray.

It isn't always easy to think every time, but it is what we strive for.

[Marengo]

72. Not condoning torture under any circumstances seems pretty easy to me

And principles, if they are to mean ANYTHING, should be held to strict standard and scrutiny.

Yep, I happily admit to "black and white" thinking on this issue.

[sabrina 1]

82. I agree with you. This is brutality and I find it abhorrent, no matter

who the victim is or what they have done. It isn't about him, it is about who we are.

Prison is to simply keep the bad guys off the street and if possible, to rehabilitate them so when they get back into society, they are able to function as better human beings. Other countries seem to be able to do it.

[Marengo]

87. sabrina1's hammer falls squarly on the nail's head

"It isn't about him, it is about who we are"

That's it, nothing more need be said ;-)

Our prison system is indeed a disgrace.

[LeftishBrit]

127. +1

from another 'black and white' thinker.

[siligut]

85. Yes, you've made that very obvious. nt

[Nye Bevan]

120. It's easier to have principles only some of the time.

I condemn all prison violence. I want these crooks to be put away to serve their time. But nobody should be beaten up, or raped, in prison.

[Doctor_J]

4. This is cruel, but white collar criminals are as bad as street criminals

A few hundred banksters going to real prison would be a significant deterrent to the looting of our country.

[malaise]

8. I want them all in prison along with Bush, Cheney, Rove et al

but he hasn't been sentenced yet and those guards are responsible for him until he is tried.

[formercia]

10. Don't send them to Danbury or some other 'White-Collar' prison

Let them do hard time with the general population, people who can appreciate the nuances of Class Warfare.


Let the Banksters know what's in store for them when they get caught.


Stanford is one of the boys. If it can happen to him, it can happen to anybody.

[The Doctor.]

75. And that is the very best 'pro' argument to be made.

If every wall street executive faced the threat of jail and brutalization, you bet your ass they'd start behaving like good little tycoons. But these people believe, in most cases correctly, that their millions will stave off any fate. Therefore they are willing to cause any degree of suffering and ruination necessary to get that kind of cash.

Such people DO deserve a sound beating, as they destroy far more lives than any petty crook or rapist ever could.

[Marengo]

88. Another torture advocate?

Wow! Kinda shocking to find ANY on this board. Shall I suggest another to you? You may feel more at home there. The only disagreement I can anticipate is who should be tortured.

[The Doctor.]

116. Hardly.

I know that you've been fortunate enough to hit on a point of pristine purity. I see that you are exuberantly bandying about this thread flogging every schadenfreude-smitten poster with your flail of righteousness and your litmus test of humanity.

That doesn't work on me.

What this asshole experienced was not 'torture', it was retribution.

If all retribution is torture, then we should not punish criminals at all. God knows, they might have enemies in the jail they've decided to land themselves in. Therefore, we cannot allow rich white men to go to jail because they may well find that a daily manicure is unavailable, they can't have their specialty coffee or fresh strawberries with breakfast, and they might just get their pasty-white, arrogant, greedy, selfish, life-destroying asses beaten.

It's jail. People get beaten every day there... most who truly do not deserve it. When it happens to someone who has proven themselves to be an enemy of civilization itself, they should not expect civility.

Do I agree that it is 'right'? No, it's not 'right'.
But then neither is the destruction of thousands of lives for personal gain.

I guess that leaves me at 'fair'.


Now do feel free to rage away in abject righteousness.

[Marengo]

123. Your words: "Such people DO deserve a sound beating"

And yes, humanitarians do condemn the brutalization of ALL people, especially those who deserve it. It's a tough position to take, but the only correct one. Retribution in the form of physical brutality, no matter who may administer it, has no place in a progressive justice and incarceration system.

How we treat the most despicable IS a litmus test. A test which you have failed.

[The Doctor.]

138. While I truly enjoy watching you wallow in the glow of your own righteousness...

I do make distinctions between 'torture' and 'brutality'. I know you see no difference, which is why there is no convincing you of anything here.

As a rule, I disagree with violence. Unfortunately, the world we live in responds to and deals in violence. There are some people who will cause vast harms so long as they believe there is no threat of retribution.

Jail is something people should want to avoid... especially those of means and privilege. Why? because just as this guy, they have the ability to cause far greater harm to society than a common street-thug. Do I think jail should be dangerous? No. However, we need jail to be significantly less pleasant than a stay at a bed and breakfast.

If you were guaranteed everything in jail was safe and secure, and that you would never have unpleasant interactions with other inmates, then risking jail for millions, or billions of dollars really wouldn't seem that big of a deal. If you knew that you could wind up disfigured for life, then even a million bucks you wouldn't get to keep wouldn't seem worth it.

The points are these;

a) This guy knew what he was risking, he pretty much signed up for this beating.

b) This beating may very well have been an effective deterrent against some other tycoon destroying thousands of lives.

[Warpy]

5. Damn, he's got some facial fractures

and that bucket in front of him says he's probably got some swelling inside his head. It looks like he was worked over with boots, not fists. He could easily have permanent damage.

Nobody deserves this.

While I want this guy off the street and unable to hurt anyone else by bilking them out of their financial futures, I don't want him tortured.

The thugs who did this need to pay for it.

[The Doctor.]

119. Don't see much evidence of fractures.

It depends on how long after the incident the pics were taken. He's been cleaned up, but there might yet be some onset of swelling. I think you're right about the feet though. The angles suggest prison-sneakers. Actual boots would have left broader patterns.

The real story would be in his arms. Looking at them, I see little evidence of defense injuries. He was held in place, most likely... but then one would expect to see a great deal more damage.

Hmmm...

[Warpy]

131. Right orbit and nose

Swelling and bruising on extremities takes a little longer to present unless there are fractures.

I too have worked ER.

[The Doctor.]

137. This must have been very soon after.

Orbital contusions and fractures are uhhh-gly.

All in all, you would know better. My experience with physical medicine is limited to just one organ, and I'm not a physician. Seen plenty of injuries, and this will definitely leave scars.

[jaxx]

7. Where were the jail keepers when this beating happened?

Looks like they're not so good themselves. The man is a thief, not much good, but nobody should be beaten while in custody. It smells.

[malaise]

12. Precisely

On the other hand, it's important to note that he's an arrogant asshole and one can see him getting into lots of problems with fellow inmates (and guards)

[jaxx]

14. I know, but the keepers have a job to do.

And it looks like they were lax.

[malaise]

20. Beyond lax

:hi:

[backwoodsbob]

28. to be fair to the guards..

an older white collar bankster vs an experienced street fighter wouldn't be much of a fight.that much damage could be done in a few seconds.

not saying that is the case but it well within possibility

[datasuspect]

31. guards will let prisoners do this stuff

no one will come to your rescue when you are locked up.

[brewens]

9. We need white collar criminals to know they are going to do

hard time. Enhancements to their sentences increasing with larger thefts or frauds would be nice too. We do it with blood alcohol levels.

[Angry Dragon]

11. Yes it is right

The same justice for all, this is the country the rich and powerful want for the rest of us.
I see nothing wrong with treatment. They steal peoples' life savings and care nothing about
what happens from there. If you put more of the real crooks in jail they would think twice
about committing fraud.

In a post yesterday (I think) on Du, a fund manager in Colorado,did a hit and ran on a liver transplant
surgeon while riding his bicycle and left him for dead. The prosecutor refused to charge him
with a felony because it would interfere with him making money.

When the laws and punishment becomes equal between the have and the have-nots then I will
feel sorry for pieces of shit like this scum.

Where are the pictures of all the other people that got beat-up in prison the same day??
No one cares about them, just this one rich thief.

[Marengo]

16. A pro-torture progressive? You're a rare animal indeed!

Or maybe not. Threads like these always prove just how thin the veneer can be.

[Angry Dragon]

22. I am just following the bush agenda

Torture first and then charge them with a crime.

bush says torture is okay, our government says torture is okay.
Either it is or it is not. I say torture is wrong, beatings are wrong.
What I see is nothing more than what the rich and powerful want for this
country. They think the more powerful should rule.

[Marengo]

24. If you believe torture is wrong, why condone it in post #11?

bush says torture is okay, our government says torture is okay. Either it is or it is not. I say torture is wrong, beatings are wrong.

Well, it isn't okay, and suggesting it is because that's what the other side does is indefensible. Like I said in an earlier post, there is no middle ground on this issue.

[Angry Dragon]

35. I will say it again ................ torture is not okay

Because this country has drifted further and further to the right
it has gained the personality of fear, anger, and hate. The rich and powerful
have pushed it to this point. They believe they are above the laws of
all others. They lie, steal, kill, torture, and anything else they
can think of to promote a tighter control of this country. They have no
empathy for others, do not care as long as they have theirs'.
This is the world that they have created. When the people at the bottom
see that others can get by with having no concern for others they think to
themselves that it must be okay. When you care nothing for others how can he
then complain when others have no concern for him??

How many others got beat in prison or jail today?? Where are their pictures??
Where are their articles?? When you create a world of hate you better be able
to live it.

[malaise]

36. Sadly you are correct

This is the world that they have created.

When the people at the bottom
see that others can get by with having no concern for others they think to
themselves that it must be okay. When you care nothing for others how can he
then complain when others have no concern for him??

How many others got beat in prison or jail today?? Where are their pictures??
Where are their articles?? When you create a world of hate you better be able to live it.
------------
The Mail did not carry this for sympathy - they are out to humiliate him. Remember the Daily Mail is a British RW rag and they are delighted to post these pictures after Stanford humiliated all of English cricket and in particular, Lord's Grandees.

[Marengo]

45. Then why did you write "Yes it is right" in the subject line of post #11? N/T

[Angry Dragon]

59. There are two sides to this

The one side is what I hold as beliefs.
Torture is wrong
Fraud is wrong
Killing is wrong
Theft is wrong

The second side of this is that the rich and powerful
do not hold these same beliefs. To them anything
that will enrich them is okay. How do you combat those
beliefs?? Arrests, jail, and fair enforcement of laws.
How is that working out for us??
A man that defrauds Medicare of $1.7 billion and is the governor
elect of Florida. A man runs down a doctor and the prosecutor denies to
prosecute for a felony because he will find it hard to earn a living.
The man handles a $1 billion investment fund. Another defrauds to the tune of
$60 million and pays a fine of $60 million, no jail time.
How many more are out there??

Where is the line in the sand when you will not others cross??
When the existence of your country is at stake, your life, your families??
Sometimes people have to do things they do not want to do to protect themselves
and the ones they love.

The article says he got beat up because he was on the phone, his side.
Perhaps he smarted off to these men, swore at them, threatened them.
Does not justify their actions, but this is the world that Sanford has
helped create. A world that says that you can do what you want as long
as you get ahead. This is not the world that I would chose to live in.

[sendero]

112. I agree with you..

... and years ago I would not have. This guy is one of of hundreds or thousands who should be in jail for "white collar" crime.

People going to jail for smoking pot have to put up with this shit why shouldn't this asshole?

[Iggo]

44. A pro torture folower of the Bush doctrine, eh?

You gonna stick with that?

:rofl:

[Angry Dragon]

68. Sure, why not

A self promoting torturer runs around selling a book.
No one does anything about it.
How can the people not then think that torture is
okay with the government??

bush and his group of thugs should be in Gitmo
All bankers should be investigated for fraud
if these investigations reveal fraud then fines, restitution and
jail time.

At that time you would start to see a country that started
to get its' soul back. Until that time we will be still
sliding down the slope into the Bowels of Hell

[malaise]

17. You know my view of these white collar criminals

but he hasn't even had a trial yet. The guards are responsible for this.
While I'm all for making the criminals in the banks understand what's coming for them when they are among the prison population, Stanford has not been found guilty yet. I hold no brief for him because he did an awful lot of harm in the English-speaking Caribbean but I cannot condone this beating.

[petronius]

39. I agree. No prisoner should be beaten, no prisoner should be raped,

no prisoner should be denied medical care, etc.

It doesn't matter if one feels sympathy for Stanford or not, all progressives should feel disappointed in the failure of the justice system when stories like this come out...

[Lisa D]

70. Thank you.

If you condone this abuse for any prisoner, you condone it for yourself. Because someone, somewhere, will think you deserve it.

[malaise]

18. You know my view of these white collar criminals

but he hasn't even had a trial yet. The guards are responsible for this.
While I'm all for making the criminals in the banks understand what's coming for them when they are among the prison population, Stanford has not been found guilty yet. I hold no brief for him because he did an awful lot of harm in the English-speaking Caribbean but I cannot condone this beating.

[TexasObserver]

15. No prisoner should be subjected to this kind of maltreatment.

Doesn't matter who it is. Doesn't matter what they were convicted of doing, either.

There's a tendency in society to chortle about these events, as if they are deserving punishment.

[tammywammy]

19. +1 n/t

[malaise]

21. In this case

he hasn't even been convicted.

[uppityperson]

62. Agreed. Shame on anyone who condones this.

[Justitia]

124. Totally agree. Prisons shouldn't be state sanctioned, violent torture chambers.

We don't have to sympathize w/the victims, to abhor the violence.

[RZM]

23. Terrible stuff

I don't understand why so few people care about the awful stuff that goes on in our prisons. Beatings, sex slavery, murders -- much of it racial in nature too (I don't know BTW if this was or not). It's sad that this kind of thing is seen as fodder for jokes or evidence that 'people get what they deserve' and not a human rights issue. The state and federal government hold full responsibility for the safety of prison inmates that they sentence, house, feed, and clothe and they don't do a good job of providing it.

[Alameda]

77. I care.....it's wrong....period.

[jgraz]

26. This is the flip-side of the wild west mentality that made Stanford rich.

These guys are fine with the negative consequences as long as they happen to "those people". I don't condone what was done to him, but if there is a better example of chickens coming home to roost, I haven't seen it.

[RZM]

30. Really?

Wouldn't a better example being somebody who inflicted harsh violence on someone else having it happen to them? Or somebody who murdered someone having that happen to them? I don't think that violent felons should be subjected to violence themselves, nor do I think that massive fraud like what this guy did shouldn't be punished with long sentences. But you're argument is a bit of stretch. There are some better examples to be found I think.

[jgraz]

34. If you think the billionaire class isn't inflicting harsh violence on people

I suggest you take a walking tour of Iraq.

[malaise]

37. All true but we didn't condone that

and we can't condone what's going on in the prisons.

[jgraz]

41. I don't condone it at all. I want it to stop.

And if a few billionaires need to get shit-stomped to make it stop, well that's just the price we pay for living in a free society. (tm, Republican Party)

[Marengo]

47. Ah, so you DO condone torture, so long as it happens to the "right" folk.

Thanks for finally answering the question. But, no thanks to you for bringing discredit to the progressive stand of opposing torture and brutality.

There are NO buts or exceptions to this belief.

[jgraz]

51. Reading is fundamental

If you can't figure out what my post actually said, go ask someone.

[Marengo]

53. Oh, I KNOW what your position is on this issue. So no need to ask anyone.

You've stated repeatedly in this thread that you support torture so long as it achieves the ends you approve of.

-Edit for spelling

[jgraz]

58. So I can assume you'll stop bothering me with your silliness?

[Marengo]

63. If you were to admit that you approve of torture under certain circumstances

Than there is no need to continue this discussion. Otherwise, well, we'll see.

[malaise]

66. Reread the post n/t

[Marengo]

74. I did, and my response is still the same.

Jgraz is okay with it, so long as it produces certain results. His/her other posts in this thread prove that.

[RZM]

93. What about sex offenders?

I'd like the rape of children to stop too. I think it's abominable. Maybe a few of them need to get 'shit-stomped' too? Oh wait, I forgot. They frequently are and sometimes they end up in the morgue, not just the infirmary. Is that ok by you too, or is it only billionaires that deserve to have violence inflicted upon them while under the direct supervision and care of the state? Which problems are worthy of a violent solution like this? Where does it stop? Also, who do you think does the dirty work here? A righteous band of progressive Robin Hoods or a bunch of abominable predators who target the weak?

[RZM]

92. I see what you're doing here

You don't particularly mind violence being perpetrated against people who commit massive fraud (maybe you don't endorse it, but don't seem to be all that concerned), because they are wealthy and it's just desserts. But not a lot of people are necessarily going to believe that's right, so you need to link this person to all of the violence in Iraq to buttress your argument. I get it. Seems to me then that you would be a big proponent of the death penalty, because that is the ultimate in 'chickens coming home to roost.' Is it not?

[Dreamer Tatum]

48. Actually, you uttely condone what was done to him. Your posts indicate that fully.

Stop being chickenshit.

[jgraz]

57. "Condone" is such a weasel-word.

If his beating leads to prison reforms, then it turned out to be a good thing. It will be the first time Allen Stanford's existence had a positive effect on the universe.

[Dreamer Tatum]

65. At least you have the guts to state that you approve of

the beating of an ACCUSED criminal.

Tell me...how would you feel if an accused criminal was similarly beaten in Joe Arpaio's tent city?

(go ahead and assume it's a white guy)

[Marengo]

69. The weasel is not be found in the word, but in the author instead

The Merrian Webster definition of condone:

Definition of CONDONE
transitive verb
: to regard or treat (something bad or blameworthy) as acceptable, forgivable, or harmless <a government accused of condoning racism> <condone corruption in politics>

To quote you: "If his beating leads to prison reforms, then it turned out to be a good thing."

Hmmm, it seems you do actually condone his beating.

[jgraz]

73. As I suspected.

Another passive-aggressive using fake progressive values to insult people. Run along now.

[Marengo]

78. LOL! Condemnation of torture is a fake progressive value?

Really? In what universe?

Hey, don't get sore. You're the one who suggested brutality is okay as long as certain results occur.

With that line of reasoning, you have to expect a negative response or two on a progressive discussion board

[jgraz]

79. In your case, yes.

Since your main goal is to show everyone how superior you are.

[Marengo]

83. Only me? Look elsewhere on this thread

I'm not the only one who condemns this occurrence. Condemns period, with no modifications, addendum, or extra little bits.

Hmmmm, actually, I do kinda regard someone who believes in the principle of no torture under any circumstances, regardless of the outcome, as superior in ideology to another who can justify torture.


It's one very important thing which separates us from them.

[sabrina 1]

95. jgraz, I normally agree with you on almost everything.

But those who condoned torture for 'terrorists' had the same argument, if enough of them suffered badly, it would serve as a lesson to the rest of the them. That is what was told to me over and over again, by Bush supporters trying to justify torture, when they were presented with the fact that it is illegal in this country.

Their other reasons were that good could come of it if it stopped another terrorist attack.

I understand the anger towards these white collar criminals, and this guy probably was a supporter of the war on terror and all its ugliness.

Still, I do not want to go down the awful path they have taken this country with them. They all should be prosecuted and jailed for what they have done, but in accordance with our laws.

Our prison system is among the worst in the world. I agree with one thing, what happened to him happens to many people daily in our horrific prison system which badly in need of reform. I would very much support seeing similar reports on all victims of violence in our prisons.

It is tempting, and sometimes I have to fight with myself not to give in to it, to envision this happening to Rove, Bush, Cheney, but I know that only reduces me to their level. Just taking away their ill-gotten fortunes and locking them up after a trial and conviction, would be punishment enough for them, and would serve just as surely as a lesson to others who are tempted to do what they have done.

As people here have pointed out, they will not be prosecuted, because we as a nation have openly accepted torture and slaughter of innocent people as justified.

I'm sorry to have to disgree with you even though I understand the anger, but it is at times like this that our values are truly tested. If they are not tested, it is easy to hold to them. I guess it's inevitable that when a country abandons the rule of law in favor of the elites of that society, that decent people like you will eventually adapt an 'eye for an eye' philosophy, which is another reason why we must find a way to bring back justice for all.

[jgraz]

98. my argument is slightly different.

If someone asked me if Stanford should be beat down, i would have said no. But now that he has been, I hope that the publicity leads to reforms for other prisoners. The torturers hoped to inflict terror on other prisoners, not reform the system.

I also have zero sympathy for him on a moral level. That doesn't mean I think the state should support cruel and unusual punishment. I just don't care one whit about this particular criminal.

[sabrina 1]

101. I don't think what happened to him will do anything to reform the system

except that his lawyers will probably sue the state, if it's a state-run prison, and from now on they will be more protective of very wealthy, influential inmates.

There is no information on why he was beaten so badly either. Isn't it possible that he might be about to implicate other wealthy, influential individuals to get a better deal for himself? It's not hard in our vile prison system to get a few flunkies to 'take care of' someone in his situation who, having little integrity, might be about to sell his former colleagues down the river.

Should that turn out to be the case, then he may hesitate to give information on others just as corrupt as he himself is.

Anyhow, I do see what you mean, and don't particularly care about him either, but that's not why we are supposed to treat all human beings humanely, regardless of what they have done.

I will say this, if I had asked those rightwingers about torture before the revelations, they would have said that 'we don't do that, we are there to save the Iraqi people from Saddam's torture chambers' something I reminded them of after they began to excuse it. But they stopped mentioning Saddam's torture chambers as a reason for our illegal invasion of Iraq.

[Name removed]

33. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[malaise]

54. I wouldn't care if this happened to them outside of prison

but when the state is responsible for the human rights of those in lock ups, I can't condone the atrocities taking place in prisons in many parts of the world. It's even worse when the person hasn't even faced justice yet.

[City Lights]

42. Brutal.

:wtf:

[EFerrari]

49. That's horrible.

One of my kids did time last year for pot possession and this was my daily fear until I could verify he was out of there.

[LiberalAndProud]

50. Seems to me he pissed off the wrong people.

I hadn't heard of this guy, so I googled. I find that he is accused (not yet indicted) of doing exactly what every banker has been doing for years without suffering any repercussions. In fact, their nefarious activities have been underwritten by the American taxpayer. Now he gets mugged in prison while awaiting trial? I guess I could get behind this if TPTB would dole out the punishment (prison mugging includedd) in an evenhanded manner. This just looks like somebody at the SEC has a vendetta. Maybe he grabbed the wrong ass.

[siligut]

61. Yes, this is what you have to wonder about.

This beating and humiliation shows what happens when you don't do as you're told, it has to help keep others in line.

[tridim]

60. Awful, but note he still has better health care than most Americans.

[malaise]

67. True

:hi:

[Sanity Claws]

64. Shameful

After conviction, a felon should be subjected to punishment but it cannot be cruel or unusual, under our Constitution.
Stanford is awaiting trial and has not been convicted. That is one reason why this beating is awful. Even if convicted, being pummeled to the point of almost losing an eye is cruel. This is a second reason.
Also, allowing this kind of behavior may indeed be a reason why recidivism is so high. The criminals who did the pummeling got the word that this behavior is fine. Why should they change when they are released? This is a third reason.
This picture is a terrible indictment of our criminal justice system.

Interesting how the news item came from a British paper, not US media.

[Dreamer Tatum]

71. +100000

[bluedigger]

76. Who?

Flirting: Allen Stanford grabs Emily Prior, wife of wicketkeeper Matt, and puts her on his lap while watching a game in Barbados with the wives and girlfriends of England's cricketers



'I was on the telephone and some of the other people in the cell didn't like it,' he told a friend who visited him, according to the Sunday Times.
'They said something to me and then two of them jumped me and kept punching me and kicking me in the head.
'I lost consciousness, but at one time I came round and grabbed one of them by the leg. That just set them off a again'.
The guards burst into the cell and shackled Stanford before taking him to a hospital where he underwent an operation while still chained up.

The assault happened in October last year in a cell holding 14 other men. It was designed to hold eight inmates and at the time had no electricity, air conditioning and was in virtual darkness.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1327421/Cricket-tycoon-Allen-Stanford-beaten-jail-inmates-awaits-trial.html?ito=feeds-newsxml#ixzz14cjrUYuK

Who bears responsibility?
Stanford, for being a complete scoundrel?
The other inmates, for not coping better with their brutal conditions?
The guards, for accepting employment at a private prison?
The administrators of the facility for permitting such conditions to exist?
The shareholders, for profitting off of human misery?
The taxpayers, for their unwillingness to properly care for those under their supervision?
You?
Me?

[malaise]

81. That photo created an unbelievable row between

Cricket England and Stanford

[TexasObserver]

102. Who bears responsibility? The government.

The government is who insisted he be held in jail pending trial. We have in this country the basic right of BAIL, but in many, many cases bail is routinely denied. In this case, he offered to comply with all manner of oversight.

A person accused of a crime should not have to defend himself in court while living in prison conditions, unless he has already been convicted of a crime and sentenced to prison for it, or in very rare cases where the evidence is virtually incontrovertible and the heinousness of the crime is severe. Economic crimes should never result in denial of bail.

This process is a prosecution ploy that keeps the defendant and his team from properly defending him, while allowing the prosecution to keep running tabs on the defendant and his defense team. This is yet another example of horrific abuse of process by those who prosecute. They daily torture the constitution to get the end they want: capitulation.

Bail is a matter of right, but in the most important cases a defendant will face, they cannot get bail any more. The entire criminal justice system has become a rubber stamp for prosecutors who behave as if they work for the old USSR, instead of the old USA.

[malaise]

104. Excellent post

Of course bail is often not an option for the poor.

[TexasObserver]

105. And bail with no realistic ability to pay is abhorrent, too.

Most people do not realize that jails which hold those charged with a crime are often run more poorly than prisons. Prosecutors, police and jailers WANT this to be true. They WANT life pending trial to be worse than life after LOSING at trial. They create an environment where a poor man accused of something figures "oh, what the hell, I might as well plead to it and get this over with."

If our justice system was remotely just, we wouldn't imprison more per capita than any nation in the world. We wouldn't treat people accused like this.

If you don't have a wealth in this country, you get no justice in criminal court. It's the most rigged part of our entire system. People who sit on juries naively believe police don't routinely lie under oath. They believe prosecutors don't routinely hide or shade evidence, and don't believe they coach witnesses to say things they know are not true.

If you're charged with a crime in this country and you're poor, you're guilty until proven innocent, and you're likely not going to be able to do that, because it takes money.

[AnArmyVeteran]

109. I understand your point, but this thug had billions and would have fled...

He could have easily fled the country no matter how he tried to co the judicial system. He is a con man who stole billions from other people, his victims. Should only the wealthy be let out on bail because they can afford to pay it? I understand about overzealous prosecutors, but in most white collar crimes the criminal is usually just forced to pay a token fine and they get to keep the millions they stole. I'm sick of a two class judicial system where the rich get off, while the poor get maximum sentences. You can have sympathy for those unjustly prosecuted but the evidence and harm done by Sanford is widespread and substantial.

Neil Bush, GW Bush's brother, just paid a paltry $50,000 fine for being one of seven defendants who stole one billion dollars. Not bad eh? How many sociopaths would take a huge share of billion dollars knowing they will not serve a day in jail and only have to pay a $50,000 fine? There are a lot of sociopaths like Sanford out there. Unfortunately, the law usually only applies to the poorest in our society.

I have sympathy for Sanford's victims and none for him.

[TexasObserver]

110. When he's in custody, he's owed a duty.

We fail prisoners awaiting trial. It's unacceptable for any of them to be held in cages with 20 others, many of whom are very violent. The attitude that people unconvicted should be held in conditions which threaten their well being is not a civilized one.

We have gone from being the world's champion for human rights 40 years ago to one of the world's biggest violators of humans, and it all starts in the criminal "justice" system.

[AnArmyVeteran]

113. I agree with everything you said.

I agree that no one should be subjected to violence within a prison. I agree with you about the absurd incarceration rate. Usually the poorer a person is the better chance he has at getting a conviction and longer prison sentence than a wealthy person, but regardless of status a person in custody should be complete safe from harm.

[RamboLiberal]

84. While I loathe this man - no one should have to be afraid

for their life in prison or jail. Unfortunately in jails and prisons the inmates are truly in many cases running the place on the inside. I don't know the answer though.

[somone]

86. Oh well

Has he asked the court to transfer him to a suitable facility at Club Med?

[rug]

89. Private prison.

But that counted for nothing at the private prison in Conroe near Houston, Texas, and the inmates sharing his cell.

---

The assault happened in October last year in a cell holding 14 other men. It was designed to hold eight inmates and at the time had no electricity, air conditioning and was in virtual darkness.

The friend claimed the inmates were 'on edge' with each other because of the cramped conditions.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1327421/Cricket-tycoon-Allen-Stanford-beaten-jail-inmates-awaits-trial.html?ito=feeds-newsxml#ixzz14cyEBvMs

[malaise]

90. For profit prisons

are an abomination to humanity and human rights.

[Gregorian]

91. If you can justify this then you are no better than him.

This is absolutely sick. What he did was sick. Now we have more sickness in the world. I wanted less. Force is not the answer to anything.

[malaise]

99. This was how I ended the OP

These prisons are more like torture chambers for persons awaiting trial and while I detest the bastard, this cannot be right.

[Gregorian]

115. Oh, I was refering to those who endorse it. Not you.

Never you. You and I see eye to eye on just about everything. :)

[spanone]

94. if a man has not been convicted, he should be protected.

[coalition_unwilling]

121. Even if a man has been convicted, he should still be protected from

physical assault. This was assault and battery, plain and simple. Doesn't matter on whom it was perpretrated, imho.

[Obamanaut]

97. You buys your tickets, you takes your rides. It is possible that even

though he is older and should know better, he let an alligator mouth buy more grief than his hummingbird body could pay for. It happens.

[asdjrocky]

106. Most people do not get beat up in jail without reason.

I'm not advocating violence, I'm not even saying he deserved this abuse even thought I will say Stanford is a Class A Pure D Asshole, and what comes around in life ultimately goes around.

I have done my time in more than one cell and I've never had a problem because I give everyone respect. It's my belief that he forgot where he was and got snooty with the wrong inmate.

[AnArmyVeteran]

107. How many lives did he destroy? How many did he kill? This guy is a sociopath.

The outward scars on this evil thug can never equal the internal carnage he caused to thousands of others who lost their retirements, their homes, their families and their lives. This guy is a monster. Pure evil.

What is wrong with our system of 'justice' is the complete lack of punishment for 99.9% of white collar criminals who get away with their crimes. The more you steal, the less your crime will be. We need to change our laws for white collar criminals. We need to apply the same forfeiture laws that drug dealers are subjected to. If someone steals more than $100,000 all of their possessions should be seized, ALL of them. Take their homes, their expensive cars, their bank accounts, everything. And if these criminals somehow become rich again, all of that money should be seized too. I'm sick of people stealing millions only to pay a token fine and maybe a couple of months in prison, only to get the millions they stole out of offshore accounts as soon as they get out of prison. Neil Bush was one of 7 defendants who stole ONE BILLION dollars at the Silverado Savings and Loan and he only had to pay a paltry $50,000 fine. Anyone with a criminal mind would spend $50,000 for part of a billion dollar heist.

I have a great deal of sympathy for the victims of these predators, but zero for people like Sanford, Bush, Madoff and all of the Wall Street thugs who destroyed millions of people's lives.

[RZM]

111. I think your focus is misplaced here

What does it matter what damage he did and to whom in the context of this incident? I agree that DOES matter when charging, prosecuting, and sentencing him, but what on earth does that have to do with the incident here? He was severely beaten while the supposed care of the state -- and all this before anything was even proven in court. You argued for stiff prison sentences and aggressive asset seizures for white collar crime, but by failing to condemn this violence here, you're also essentially arguing for that as well, since many white collar criminals are not affiliated with gang culture and don't have a history of physically violent acts and thus are subject to beatings, extortion, rape, and murder in prison. And they aren't the only ones, either. You do also realize that gay and physically weak inmates are also often targeted for sexual slavery in prison -- sometimes on the basis of their race as well and occasionally, by predators who are HIV positive. This is a human rights issue, plain and simple.

[AnArmyVeteran]

114. I agree, I don't condone what happened. Our prison system is a disgrace.

[RagAss]

117. Amen !

[Posteritatis]

108. This is an unsurprisingly ugly thread. (nt)

[Nye Bevan]

118. Disgusting to see how many DUers approve of prison violence

when they have a particular dislike of the inmate in question.

This thread is not DU's finest hour.

[coalition_unwilling]

122. Hear, hear. I am absolutely appalled by how willing some DUer's

are to condone physical assault on anyone. WTF? I thought we were supposed to be better than the torturers and abusers. Oh well.

[Matariki]

128. Disgusting. This country seriously needs prison reform

And it could start with here with people's primitive ideas of justice and revenge.

[Bucky]

130. This happened several weeks ago. I'm sure he & Rocco have settled their differences since then

I see he's getting that free government healthcare, by the way. What a freeloader!

[Nye Bevan]

133. HA HA! Prison violence is hilarious, isn't it!

I wonder if he'll drop the soap in the shower? Because prison rape is hilarious too!