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Did Thomas Jefferson grow and smoke marijuana?

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IDHow Donating Member (97 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-10 05:09 PM
Original message
Did Thomas Jefferson grow and smoke marijuana?
There's quite abit of buzz around about the founding father about this. On many websites as well, it says so, but do anyone of you know for sure that he did it? Is it proven fact? And if so, how would that affect your opinion on it?

I'm aware he was a slave owner, but growing pot is different IMO.
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Kurt_and_Hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-10 05:11 PM
Response to Original message
1. Grow, probably. Smoke? Doubtful.
The kind of hemp the founding fathers would have been growing was not good bud.
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tridim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-10 05:18 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. I don't think we know exactly what kind of hemp Jefferson grew
But it really doesn't matter, hemp is just Cannabis Sativa.

We still smoke Sativas today. If he found a female in his field he could have smoked it, and probably did.
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whathehell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-10 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. "If he found a female in his field he could have smoked it, and probably did".
What are you saying?
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whathehell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-10 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. Don't know or care, particularly, what Ignored said...
I'm asking the writer of the post. Duh.
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de novo Donating Member (590 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-10 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. Female plants have the buds that are good to smoke.
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de novo Donating Member (590 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-10 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #4
9. Female plants have the buds that are good to smoke.
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whathehell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-10 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Thanks for the information. n/t
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RainDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-10 06:31 PM
Response to Reply #10
16. Cannabis is a sexed plant
Female cannabis plants produce THC resin to attract pollination. The female flowers are fat and sticky while the male flowers are sparse and small.

the purpose of the male flower is to pollinate the female flower. while male cannabis plants contain THC, they don't have the concentrations that the female plants do.

if you let the male and female plants grow together undisturbed, the cannabis will be lower in THC than if you isolate the female plants.

by isolating them, you induce them to create more and more sticky buds to try to attract pollen, which is carried by the wind.

the desire to reproduce (aka sexual desire) across nature is so strong that female cannabis plants occasionally produce hermaphrodites, or male flower buds, to pollinate the plant.

Most annuals contain both the male and female sexual organs.

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whathehell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-10 06:38 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. Thanks for the botany lesson...
My experiental knowledge surpasses my academic knowledge.:hippie:
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-10 06:07 PM
Response to Reply #4
13. A female pot plant.
Edited on Sun Nov-07-10 06:21 PM by Ken Burch
Not Sally Hemmings.
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whathehell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-10 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. Admittedly,
I did think it might be a sleazy sexual innuendo

..but I didn't think it was Sally Hemmings.:P
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-10 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. At that time, hemp was hemp. it wasn't cultivated in this country at least
for only smoking purposes, but neither was it cultivated to deliberately reduce its more fun properties - as the rope-hemp growers did in the early part of this century. As widely read as Jefferson was he was undoubtedly aware of its cultivation for that purpose in south asia and north africa, and I don't doubt he would have experimented with it because, after all, it was right there. Probably as a tobacco/cannabis blend which would have reduced its effect from getting wasted to a merely quiet, relaxing smoke.

I don't think anybody could make the case that he was a stoner.
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RainDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-10 07:22 PM
Response to Reply #5
19. but Franklin, for instance, engaged in experiments with Priestly and others
in England who were isolating gases and discovering oxygen, etc.

they experimented, it seems, with nitrous oxide. Humphry Davy, the guy who i.d.'ed it, was part of a group of scientists back in the day who shared their experimental work.

I would be surprised if the founders didn't experiment with various substances because the taboos against doing so did not exist as part of their mental framework. Since Washington grew India hemp with seeds he imported from India - I would be very surprised if he did not experiment with the plant. The reason for that plant has ALWAYS been psychotropic. The use of hemp is blessed by the most powerful Hindu god.

Our prohibition against various natural substances is new - only in the last century has western society decided to make certain plants and other substances illegal. This tact has coincided with demands for civil rights for various groups associated with one substance vs. another, importing people from other nations for labor, then trying to get rid of them one way or another during economic downturns.

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Cirque du So-What Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-10 05:25 PM
Response to Original message
3. Behind every good man there is a woman
and that woman was Sally Hemmings, man, and everyday Tom would come home, she would have a big fat bowl waiting for him, man, when he come in the door, man, she was a hip, hip, hip lady, man.
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-10 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #3
14. Little known fact: Thomas Jefferson was the inventer of pirated Dead tapes.
n/t.
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-09-10 09:18 PM
Response to Reply #3
28. Nice whitewashing of a rapist you've come up with there.
:puke:
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ngant17 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-10 05:30 PM
Response to Original message
8. medical marijuana was used in late 18th century
in the US. It's possible that it was used by Jefferson for medical reasons.
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IDemo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-10 05:39 PM
Response to Original message
11. Hemp was an invaluable crop. Its cultivation was required.
Several tons were used for the rigging on the USS Constitution, for example:

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RainDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-10 06:05 PM
Response to Original message
12. The Colonies were required to grow hemp
in 1619, long before Jefferson, the Virginia Company mandated that all colonists had to grow 100 hemp plants. In 1682, hemp was legal tender in Virginia and could be used to pay off up to 1/4 of any farmer's debts.

Colonists were not allowed to spin and weave their own cloth. All manufactured goods were supposed to be purchased from Britain after the colonists had sent them the raw materials for manufacture.

Colonists defied this rule and started spinning and weaving their own cloth. In 1699, the Brits forbade the importation of wool. The colonists responded by using hemp fiber (which is most closely related to flax, as far as a raw material for cloth - flax is where linen comes from.)

The Stamp Act of 1765 - a tariff on imports to America - led to a boycott of all things British. The colonists who were fighting for independence were able to clothe themselves, create sails, rope, etc. because of the hemp manufacturing that came about b/c of the attempt to prohibit the colonists from creating their own goods.

Surplus hemp cloth was sold to France - and the money from those sales was used to purchase munitions for the Revolutionary War.

After the war, hemp continued to be a currency in the new states - it was favored over paper money b/c it could not be counterfeited and it maintained a steady value b/c of demand - it was essential for life in the new states.

Robert Bell, an American printer, called for the use (again) of hemp paper in 1777, again to promote a reduction on imported materials.

The first drafts of the Declaration of Independence were written on hemp paper (obtained from the Dutch.)

Both Washington and Jefferson grew hemp as a cash crop on their farms - in truth, they didn't grow it - slaves did - Jefferson stopped hemp cultivation because the process of retting, or breaking down the hemp into fibers, was all done by hand and the slaves complained so he gave it up. (Since his time, someone invented a decorticator to do this retting. George Schlichten patented a decorticator in 1919, but by that time, the gilded age "captains of industry," such as Hearst (newspapers) and Edward Scripps (Scripps newspaper co.) had large industrial holdings in the paper pulp industry - they had interests in both the creation of newsprint and fabrication of news to fit their purposes.)

but, back to the founders...

Washington wrote in his diary, in 1765, that he regretted he did not separate the male and female plants prior to fertilization. The reason this is done now is to create plants for the purpose of THC cultivation - once hemp is pollinated, it ceases to produce the flower buds in which the most THC is concentrated. But there is no absolute proof that this was the reason he mentioned separating the plants.

Washington also grew cannabis indica - India hemp - which is the hemp plant that is and has been grown for thousands of years in India for the THC it produces. He grew this from seeds imported from India in the late 1700s.

After the revolution, Madison was the American ambassador to France (as was Jefferson, earlier on.) Napoleon brought hashish to France when his army returned from the Egyptian campaign (1798-1801). During the campaign, he forbade his troops to use hashish and (not surprisingly) they ignored him. They brought hashish back to northern Europe and introduced it to the rest of the area, along with Napoleon's empire.

Because of the prevalence of hashish among the intellectuals and artists of the time, people speculate that Madison was familiar with it. However, opium was much more readily available to people, much stronger, socially approved, and thus the "drug of choice" in Europe in the 1800s. Women used opium tinctures because it was considered socially appropriate, while smoking - anything - wasn't.

Though hemp retting was hard work, some landowners in the late 1700 and early 1800s paid the slaves for this hard work. Slaves who were able to cultivate and prepare hemp were sometimes able to earn enough money to buy their freedom.

This information comes from Martin Booth's book, Cannabis, A History - a book with an informative bibliography if you want to look into some of these things yourself.




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IDHow Donating Member (97 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-09-10 07:17 AM
Response to Reply #12
23. Very interesting!
Thanks alot!!!
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RainDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-09-10 08:47 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. You're welcome! More geekology here!
It's an interesting part of American history that has been repressed because of the current war on drugs. In return, the "other side" sometimes makes claims that have some grounding in reality but may not be fully supportable by existing evidence.

but here's some more history geekitude on this subject that dispels rumors from both sides of the debate if you're interested.

Many (including myself until recently, after further reading) insist that the founders ingested psychotropic hemp. I think the circumstantial case for Washington is strong, considering his purchase of India hemp (what we know as the basis for marijuana.) But I don't think there is any concrete evidence at this time. However, as I stated above, people in that era did not have the same attitude toward mind-altering substances that we do. In fact, they lived in a time when alcohol consumption was far, far, far greater than it is now and people were far, far, far more open to experimentation with different substances - as mentioned with Franklin and the men who were conducting experiments into the chemical composition of our world. They first experimented on animals of various kinds before they experimented with themselves. America had a close relationship with France and France brought hashish to the attention of western Europe. Hashish was made from India hemp - for thousands of years before Europeans even had an inkling of their existence.

Lincoln supposedly wrote: "Two of my favorite things are sitting on my front porch smoking a pipe of sweet hemp, and playing my Hohner harmonica" to the Hohner company. People claimed this letter was in the Hohner museum. However, the museum apparently claims it knows of no such letter. I thought this was something that had been corroborated but found out recently this is an urban legend. At least that's my view until someone produces the letter.

However, in Lincoln's time, cannabis tincture made from India hemp was known by the mid-1800s and was in full use by the late 1800s. It would certainly be within the realm of the plausible that Lincoln used India hemp as medication. This hemp was the psychotropic kind. Lincoln died in 1865. Fifteen years before this cannabis was part of the standard pharmacology lauded by doctors with the greatest reputations.

In 1850 it was listed in the U.S. Pharmacopoecia for treatment of neuralgia, tetanus, typhus, cholera, rabies, dysentery, alcoholism, and opiate addiction, anthrax, leprosy, incontinence, snake bite, gout, any convulsive disorder, tonsillitis, insanity, and uterine bleeding and was sold over-the-counter in the U.S. This, again, was more than a dozen years before Lincoln died.

In 1833, William Brooke O'Shaughnessy, a doctor from Scotland, moved to India to work as a surgeon. He immediately saw the therapeutic use of India hemp, which was (and is) traditionally compressed into hashish there and served in drinks and food, as well as ingested for religious purposes. He experimented with someone suffering from (then fatal) rabies and found that cannabis was able to help restore appetite and reduced the level of suffering in terminal rabies patients. It also made it possible for someone with rabies to drink water - which was an amazing feat b/c people with rabies are hydrophobic.

O'Shaughnessy wrote the first western medical paper about cannabis in 1839 (tho Chinese medical texts relating the uses of cannabis, or ju ma, existed thousands of years before. In addition, male hemp xi ma was the most widely used cloth before the discovery of silk - and was also the most widely used raw material for paper...which China invented...but I digress.) O'Shaughnessy claimed his experiments demonstrated anti-convulsive uses "of the greatest value." The first American papers on the use of cannabis as medicine also appeared in 1839. (Prior to this, the French had been using hashish recreationally since the time of Napoleon's Egyptian campaign in the early 1800s brought its use to France and this use was introduced to GB at that time as well.)

In 1842, when back in London, O'Shaughnessy gave some hashish to a pharmacist named Peter Squire. Squire's Extract became the first known use of cannabis extract (suspended in alcohol) in GB. Cannabis tinctures, as these were known, became highly popular for their analgesic value because the popular analgesic of the time, opium, was highly addictive.

Doctors recognized that cannabis, on the other hand, was not addictive and, to add to its value, it had none of the nasty side effects of opium, such as constipation, lower heart and lung rates, itching and appetite loss. In fact, cannabis was prescribed to help addicts overcome their addiction to opium.

The ONLY side effect observed over the long, long years of legal cannabis medicine in the west was euphoria (feelings of great happiness), sleepiness and dose-dependent hallucinations (if someone didn't shake up the bottle of tincture, the cannabis was concentrated in the last doses in the bottle.) This cannabis, again was made from concentrated hashish - or, as I speculate below, about 30 to 40% THC value per measure.

Reports of overdose meant that someone had taken the dregs of a bottle of tincture and experienced hallucinations - because at that time, as now, doctors recognized that it is impossible to actually overdose (as in die) from cannabis. Now we know it is because we do not contain enough receptors in the brain's autonomous heart/lung functioning autonomous system to repress those to the point that someone's lungs stops breathing or their heart stop beating.) Then doctors knew from observation of patients. Overdose at that time meant a strong reaction that produced unwanted hallucinations. From what I have read in recent accounts, but do not have personal knowledge of, eating hashish also produces more hallucinogenic effects because the process of digestion alters the THC molecular structure in a way that inhaling it into the lungs does not. It also takes seconds for inhaled THC to take effect while ingestion takes at least 30 minutes to an hour.

In 1890, Queen Victoria's physician, Sir John Russell Reynolds, wrote an article for The Lancet, still one of the world's leading medical journals, that stated cannabis (India hemp) was "one of the most valuable medicines we possess."

(As a sort of historical corollary, Nixon's hand-picked conservative DEA Administrative Law Judge, Francis Young, whose commission was formed to find marijuana was dangerous, concluded in the early 1970s that: "In strict medical terms marijuana is far safer than many foods we commonly consume. For example, eating 10 raw potatoes can result in a toxic response. By comparison, it is physically impossible to eat enough marijuana to induce death. Marijuana in its natural form is one of the safest therapeutically active substances known to man. By any measure of rational analysis marijuana can be safely used within the supervised routine of medical care.")

Since 1860, cannabis was considered a valid medicine to treat stomach cramps, coughs, venereal disease (this was before antibiotics, so again, the treatment would have been for symptoms, not a cure.) Current medical research relates the anti-inflammatory and analgesic properties that would back up this idea.) It was also prescribed for post-partum depression. In 1887 an American researcher noted the value of cannabis for relieving the anxiety of terminally ill patients.

Reynolds advocated using cannabis to treat uterine bleeding, migraine, neuralgia and muscle spasms. Other than uterine bleeding, these uses are also considered valid medical uses for cannabis today based upon recent research - as with the spasms, for instance, of MS, and the pain of neuralgia, or inflamed nerves that can cause sharp, horrific shooting pains in various limbs and on the face and head. (I know about this b/c I have a form of neuralgia that effects the face and arm. It feels like an electrical shock. In fact, it's called the suicide pain because it is so severe. I take no medication for mine at this time b/c it is intermittent. I have had it since I was 12. I also have migraines, which some speculate may be related to this same irritation of nerve endings.) I'm considering acupuncture... apropos to nothing.

Because Reynolds advocated cannabis for these purposes, people speculate that Queen Victoria used cannabis tincture. It would seem highly likely that a medicine her doctor described in glowing terms as "of the greatest value" would have prescribed the same for cramps and uterine bleeding since it had been available as a medicine in GB since the mid-1800s. However, as far as I know, no one has produced a bottle of cannabis tincture that may be traced directly to the Queen. The circumstantial evidence, nevertheless, makes it highly likely that the Queen did, indeed, use cannabis as a medicine. Why would the Queen's personal physician, who lauded something as a great medicinal value not prescribe the same to his most important patient?

By the late 1800s, cannabis was also combined with other drugs used at the time, such as heroin and opium, in some tinctures. Therefore, any claims about the effect of cannabis that was assigned to it at the time has to be compared to known effects without those additional substances, as well the the effects of those additional substances.

However, one of the foremost pharmacologists in England at the time knew of the possibility of inhaling cannabis and determined it should be classified with this use of coffee or tea, in terms of danger. He also noted its effects from this manner of use were useful and refreshing and non-addictive.

In 1887 in the U.S. cannabis and tobacco cigarettes were sold as "Indian cigarettes" for treatment of asthma and cough, dull pain and insomnia. Cannabis is a bronchial dilator. This claim, therefore, remains true for SOME people - while others do not have the same reaction. Individual reactions vary so someone with asthma should not experiment w/o a doctor's supervision.

One therapeutic dose was considered 1 grain or, if I have this correctly calculated, 65mg or 0.065 grams or 0.002292807526722727 Ounces of hashish. Hashish is highly concentrated cannabis. Just from reading around, it appears that hashish is about 30 to 40% THC concentrate, while unprocessed cannabis is, now, with years of breeding for strength, about half that for the BEST varieties of bud while 6% is the standard for leaf, according to Canadian reports.

Since I'm a math moron, I'll stop there, but if any mathletes want to speculate on the relative potency of tinctures to what is currently inhaled from, say, a one hit, please feel free. Someone else will have to supply the information about the avg weight of a dried bud, if such information exists. Or if others know a better way to figure this, have at it because it would be interesting to try to compare.

In the U.S. cannabis tincture was sold by Eli Lilly in one pint bottles. An average dose was 1.5 min (0.1 cc) and the ratio was 1 fluid oz of cannabis to 9 fluid oz of alcohol. (Since cannabis is not water soluble, alcohol or oil would've been the route to suspension, with alcohol seemingly the fluid of choice.)

Because opiates are water soluble, they became the major painkiller of choice when the hypodermic needle became usable after 1853 because these opiates could be easily injected by doctors.

In 1895, two doctors at Cambridge were able to create a resin extract from hashish that they called cannabinol. Two years later, a chemist found that cannabis lost its potency over time through the process of oxidation, or exposure to air. Because it was not water soluble, because it lost potency with exposure to air, and because synthetic drugs became possible by the late 1880s, cannabis was not as valuable as the new drugs... like aspirin, the chemical extract of willow bark. Cannabis is not an alkaloid. The majority of research at the time was done into alkaloids like aspirin, cocaine, opiates, caffeine, nicotine and quinine (the last for malaria.)

Because cannabis tinctures were often mixed with cocaine and opium, they lost their respectability while chemists gained ground as the dispensers of synthetic preparations based upon research into alkaloids.

Cannabis went back to being the medicine of choice for the poor and laborers as well as the source of inebriation for musicians, artists and writers.
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Occulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-09-10 09:00 PM
Response to Reply #12
26. Thank you for that.
This should be well-known among the general public, but is not, thanks in large part to Hearst, Anslinger, etc.
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asdjrocky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-09-10 09:11 PM
Response to Reply #12
27. You beat me to the punch every single time.
Jack Herer's great book, The Emperor Wears No Clothes, is a great book on the topic as well and he goes into some detail on the use of "Indian Hemp" and how it was used then.
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RainDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 12:33 AM
Response to Reply #27
29. well, you know what they say....
if you want to learn about a subject, try to explain it to someone else. I'm just giving myself a edjekasun. :)

hope you're doing well.

:hug:
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Angry Dragon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-10 07:13 PM
Response to Original message
18. As long as the teabaggers want to take us back to the Founding
Fathers they should push for the growing of hemp
That would only be right
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pokerfan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-10 07:38 PM
Response to Original message
20. The whole country back then was gettin' high
Slater: Absolutely George toked weed, are you kiddin' me, man? He grew fields of that stuff, man, that's what I'm talkin' about. Fields.
Kyle: He grew that shit up Mount Vernon, man.
Slater: Mount Vernon, man? He grew it all over the country, man. He had people growin' it all over the country, you know. The whole country back then was gettin' high. Lemme tell you, man, 'cause he knew he was onto somethin', man. He knew that it would be a good cash crop for the southern states, man, so he grew fields of it, man. But you know what? Behind every good man there is a woman, and that woman was Martha Washington, man, and everyday George would come home, she would have a big fat bowl waiting for him, man, when he come in the door, man, she was a hip, hip, hip lady, man.
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IDemo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-10 08:16 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. George?.......George ain't home!
Man.

:hippie:
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Harry Monroe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 12:41 AM
Response to Reply #22
30. George and Tom go to White Castle!!!
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-10 07:43 PM
Response to Original message
21. Pot is ancient, so is opium, so is coca, so is tobacco, so is alcohol.
Tea. Coffee. Chocolate. Sugar. Socrates takes Hemlock, Etc.

It is only our current authoritarian and profit-oriented attitude that is recent.
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Motown_Johnny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-09-10 08:50 PM
Response to Original message
25. Ummm..... you are aware he was a slave owner, but growing pot is different?!?!?
Are you implying that somehow growing pot is worse than keeping slaves?!?!
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