There is nothing wrong with Biden's statement

[Parche]

"I mean, you got the first mainstream African-American who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy," Biden said. "I mean, that's a storybook, man."



If he would have used 'Macaca' or the N word or other derogatory words then that is a different
story.
The media and right wing nifnods are blowing this way out of proportion

[Lost-in-FL]

1. Look another thread...

telling African Americans of what is or not offensive. Bravo!!! :sarcasm:

[Parche]

15. terms

You see, I think the word "African American" is slightly offensive

We are all Americans.............period....... not European Americans, not Mexican Americans
not German Americans, not Asian Americans.............

[Lost-in-FL]

25. Terms II

It is either offensive or it isn't. It is "very" offensive or "not at all" offensive. I think the word "Slightly" is ambivalent. Which opens my curiosity as of who started the trend on "labeling".

[Missy M]

2. Offensive things can be said without using the....

derogatory words. I find what Biden said not only offensive but very stupid.

[Donnachaidh]

3. There are some threads on DU that are doing alot of blowing too

Just an observation on my part.

[Beaverhausen]

4. but calling someone "bright, clean and articulate" is offensive

didn't you get the memo?

:sarcasm:

[AspenRose]

5. The most insidious form of racism

is when you DON'T use racial slurs.

[leveymg]

6. Agreed.

I used to dislike Biden. Thought he was a tool of MBNA and DuPont -- and a bit of a showboater -- but recently he's been making sense, particularly with regard to foreign affairs.

He's emerged the most articulate member of the ISG, and seems to have a clear picture of what needs to be done in Iraq - a swift regional settlement and speedy withdrawal of US combat forces. Future Secretary of State?

[aquart]

7. The first African-American who's clean?

Sure. No problem. Unless you're aware of persistent ugly slanders that black people are not clean.

But, hey, no bad words here.

See, I find this way worse than Isaiah Washington's pejorative "faggot."

[leveymg]

10. I think he means first candidate, and by "clean" he means without baggage

That surely can't be said about Al Sharpton or even Jessie Jackson.

[shanti]

16. you second guessing him?

:shrug: even if that's what he meant, it's not how it will be perceived by bp.

[aquart]

44. So all previous black candidates were corrupt?

You might want to stop digging now.

[fishwax]

56. that's NOT what meant, according to Biden's own comments on the daily show

on TDS he said he meant "fresh" and "new." He didn't say anything about without baggage or corruption free.

There have been several posters and threads filled with outrage at the outrage, saying that he clearly meant corruption-free and so anyone who is offended is just thin-skinned. But that premise is wrong, according to Biden himself.

[Bluebear]

62. Or Shirley Chisholm? nt

[jgraz]

8. Another contestant for the national "Not Getting It" contest

[karlrschneider]

9. Anybody calls ME those things better watch out, I'll punch his lights out!

Or not...
:eyes:

[Leopolds Ghost]

47. Karl, you're the first articulate, clean white liberal I've met on DU.

(....)

Of course, like the psychiatrist in that Geico ad, you would regard the adjective "clean" as not apropos to the qualities that describe a white, liberal blogger.

It is to be assumed that a white, liberal blogger is "clean" regardless of which definition you use.

But apparently it's a high compliment of a black person.

Especially if you think Obama's the first and only such person.

[mmonk]

11. Read it over again (as many times as you need).

If I were an opponent's political operative, I could make him into a democratic version of Trent Lott.

[Miss Chybil]

12. His comment infers a clean, articulate, good-looking black guy is a rarity.

I think there is something wrong with that.

[Dastard Stepchild]

13. Clean?

That's the word that I am having trouble with the most. Bright is a compliment. Articulate is a compliment. Clean is as well, but such an odd choice of words for a Presidential hopeful, and one that I have not heard referenced before.

Clean as opposed to other African-Americans? Clean as opposed to other candidates? Clean as opposed to what?

I suppose it could be in reference to clean-cut... that old phrase that was used to suggest someone had an appearance in line with the status quo. But then I don't much favor that definition either (Being clean-cut is overrated. So says the wife of a longhair!).

[leveymg]

19. "Clean" = ethical. I don't believe he meant washed.

Biden speaks in Washington short-hand, sometimes. This is being misunderstood, I think.

[Dastard Stepchild]

20. Ahhh....

Sure. Clean is a term used for ethical. I'll add that to the list of possible definitions for the words in his statement. :)

[fujiyama]

54. Oh I see

The rest of us lowly peons are misunderstanding him, rather than him misunderstanding the context of the word "articulate" being used to describe a rare sort of black person that speaks clear English, or "clean" and "bright", meaning what? that previous black candidates were all completely unfit to be president? Sure, it sounds like I'm interpreting everything he said to be an insult (which they necessarily weren't), but he's made awkward statements before regarding race and ethnicity (regarding Indian Americans). At the minimum his use of the word "articulate" and "clean" sounded condescending and patronizing. And the rest of his statements regarding Edwards and everyone else were a string of insults.

I think Biden is misunderstanding that a desire for leadership, doesn't mean a desire for a showboating, egotistical blowhard.

[Leopolds Ghost]

49. It's not a compliment when you say he's the FIRST articulate, bright black man

to run for public office!

How can people be so blind?

[Dastard Stepchild]

50. Oh yeah...

I appreciate the offense taken in pairing articulate with African-American. In my head I understood that (even though I also recognized that it could be seen as both a compliment AND an offense). It was clean that was throwing me. I've never heard that in reference to a candidate, and wasn't sure what that was a euphemism for.

(edited for spelling)

[EFerrari]

14. I am reading this on DU.

[me b zola]

32. Unbelievable, eh?

I go between anger and sadness. I'm white but my son is Mexican American who was raised in a racist community. I don't think that (most of) the people defending Biden's statements realize how insidious racism is and the damage it does--not only to the person it is hurled at, but the wider culture. :(

[EFerrari]

38. I don't know which is worse, the dehumanization or the denial.

Well, any day that starts with Negroponte and ends with losing Molly Ivins is going to be a hard day.

:(

[InvisibleTouch]

17. Taken at face value...

...and with no idea what he may have said before and after, that sentence does imply, to my reading, that other African-Americans in politics were not any of those things. So yeah, it reads like a slap at the others even while praising Obama - whether he meant it that way or not. I'm white, for what it's worth, and I still read it that way. Now, I don't think he's being intentionally malevolent or backhanded, but at the very least the wording shows a lack of awareness.

[Parche]

18. compliment

He said he was articulate, and nice looking guy, clean meaning no politcal baggage
there is nothing wrong with that, I dont know what all the uproar is about

It will get to the point where no one can say anything at all anymore.............

[leveymg]

22. That's the way it was intended. It's not a compliment to

Al Sharpton and Jessie Jackson, however.

I can see how they would be pissed by that remark. But, you're right, since when do politicians have to be non-offensive to EVERYONE?

[Marie26]

51. It wasn't intended to be a compliment

Just look at the context of the interview. Biden tore down all of the leading Dem candidates, one by one.

[goodhue]

21. Sorry, but it reads pretty racist to me

And I'm leftwing

[jgraz]

23. Maybe you need to have grown up in a family of racists

to understand just how offensive Biden's comments were (though I suppose you'd also get it if you grew up in a black family).

When I was a kid, I heard shit like this all the time. My grandmother used to say, "There are black folks, and there are n****rs," implying that some black people are OK as long as they don't "act black".

Biden has a history of making these kinds of patronizing comments. This time, he showed that he extends his monumental sense of entitlement to his race as well.

[Parche]

26. heard

I have heard alot worse
I give Biden a pass on this statement, because it is not derogatory, he didnt mean any harm
by it, he was giving him a compliment, it is not undercover racism, like I said I have heard
worse.
Most of the time words get taken out of context, or worse get overblown.

Some people just get too sensitive

[Karenina]

31. AHA! There's that "too sensitive" condescension again!

SUPER!

[Parche]

64. sensitive

Well if what Biden said was so bad, I would hate to see what was worse


Show me where what he said was 'racism' and I have a ranch in Crawford Texas to sell you.

[fishwax]

57. well, as long as it's not the worst you've heard, then I guess noone should be upset

Some people just get too sensitive
And some people just have no idea how such comments come off to those whose life experiences have been defined, in no small part, by unequal treatment at the whim of a racist society. And what's more, not only do they have no idea, but many (most?) apparently don't care enough to *listen* and *learn*.

[rocktivity]

24. I fully realize that it was a botched compliment

And Obama does, too.

But nonetheless, it IS derogatory to suggest that's there's something unusual and "storybook"-like about an African-American being "articulate", "clean", and "nice-looking." And adding "man" at the end comes across as gratuitous--Biden's attempt at speaking "ebonics?"

If Biden wants to be made the free world's foreign policy whiz, he'll have to show a lot more cultural awareness than that.

:headbang:
rocknation

[earthlover]

30. I agree

As to ending with "man"...at the black school I teach at, a more common ending to a phrase is "yo..." So if he was being patronizing, his use of word is a bit off.

Let's see the words again...."I mean, you got the first mainstream African-American who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy," Biden said. "I mean, that's a storybook, man.""

Even if yu add the word CANDIDATE, it still doesn't make sense. There have been....helloooooo.....articulate, bright and clean and nice looking black candidates before. Or is Biden implying that they were all inarticulate, dirty, ugly and not so bright?

Was Biden trying to say that Obama was able to use his charm to transcend the race issue? Gee...that is a phrase that dumb old me could come up with. So here we have a pathetic spectacle of a US Senator not being able to express himself very.....articulately!

And he's running for President?

[Crunchy Frog]

27. Good God!

I hope this isn't going to get the kind of DU coverage that Edwards' house got.:yoiks:

[Parche]

28. coverage

Its alot better then an American Idol post!!!! hahaha
:puke: :evilgrin:

[fujiyama]

29. This is not the first time he's made ethnically insenstive and stupid comments

What was that he said about 7/11s and Indians?

The guy is a fucking douchebag.

I'm convinced that not only is he a huge corporate whore sucking off the tit of MBNA, he's completely inept when talking about race, religion, and ethnicity.

Then again, I'm wasting my time talking about him. He'll be out in like two months.

[marmar]

36. "He'll be out in like two months. "

And that's only ceremonial. He was DOA at his announcement today.

[VelmaD]

42. apparently you're pretty inept...

at recognizing gender slurs

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

33. LOL.

Uh huh.

:eyes:

[treestar]

34. What's wrong is taking neutral language to deliberately

interpet racist intent - and from a Democrat.

[treestar]

35. To me the "insult" is read into it

It's neutral language, meant to be a compliment. It's taking that as an insult that is where the racism comes in.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

37. Right. Right.

It's all those black people that are the racist ones.

Plus, he's a democrat. He couldn't possibly be racist.

:eyes:

[marmar]

39. I don't think he meant it to be an insult. He's just rather clueless....

But in America, I'm sorry, but it's not neutral language. I've often been curiously lauded for being articulate, even when in a group of equally if not exceedingly articulate people (the difference being the others were white). And each time, I don't think the givers of the compliment intended to be offensive, but when you do something like that, the implied but unexpressed sentiment is: "You're so articulate....which is so unusual for your people."
There are plenty of other examples too. A friend of mind, a Latina, was told once that she spoke very good English, as was a friend who is Asian-American. I don't think it's a conscious thing most of the time, but just those years and years of programmed stereotypes that are ingrained in the subconscience.
But understand that for minorities in America, and for women too, there's subtext in all kinds of words.

[fishwax]

58. What an articulate post for a democrat!

That's storybook, man.

Of course, such a statement as I've just made might give the impression that it is unusual and noteworthy to actually find an articulate democrat. And while it might be simply a bumbling clueless compliment directed to you, it's clearly denigrating (intentionally or not) to other democrat.

[verse18]

40. Classic example of White, male privilege-

I read this essay for a sociology class in college. I always think of this whenever race and racism is the topic. I put in bold some of the particular privileges utilized in this and other threads about this topic.

http://www.mdcbowen.org/p2/rm/mcintosh.html

Here are some excepts from a paper by Peggy McIntosh. A professor and feminist at Wellesley College. She published the list in a Working Paper in 1989. She developed her list after first considering how positions of dominance and subordinance in society via gender lead privileged groups (men) to be unaware of their privilege. From there, she decided racial privilege must act the same way. The privileged group (whites) must be generally unaware of their privilege. She describes ways in which this unawareness is maintained by white society -- and of course the list, which is frequently published without the rest of her article (Thanks goes to Jeff Hitchcock for the background information).


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



ON THE INVISIBILITY OF PRIVILEGE
from Dr. Peggy McIntosh, Wellesley College Center for Research on Women... "I had been taught about racism as something which puts others at a disadvantage, but had been taught not to see one of its corollary aspects, white privilege... "I have come to see white privilege as an invisible package of unearned assets which I can count on cashing in each day, but about which I was 'meant' to remain oblivious. White privilege is like an invisible weightless knapsack of special provisions, assurances, tools, maps, guides, code books, passports, visas, clothes, compass, emergency gear and blank checks. "Whites are taught to think of their lives as morally neutral, formative and average, and also ideal, so that when we work to benefit others, this is seen as work which will allow 'them' to be more like 'us.'" Dr. McIntosh has named some of the ways of white privilege:

1. I can if I wish arrange to be in the company of people of my race most of the time.

2. I can avoid spending time with people whom I was trained to mistrust and who have learned to mistrust my kind or me.

3. If I should need to move, I can be pretty sure of renting or purchasing housing in an area which I can afford and in which I would want to live.

4. I can be pretty sure that my neighbors in such a location will be neutral or pleasant to me.

5. I can go shopping alone most of the time, pretty well assured that I will not be followed or harassed.

6. I can turn on the television or open to the front page of the paper and see people of my race widely represented.

7. When I am told about our national heritage or about "civilization," I am shown that people of my color made it what it is.

8. I can be sure that my children will be given curricular materials that testify to the existence of their race.

9. If I want to, I can be pretty sure of finding a publisher for this piece on white privilege.

10. I can be pretty sure of having my voice heard in a group in which I am the only member of my race.

11. I can be casual about whether or not to listen to another person's voice in a group in which s/he is the only member of his/her race.

12. I can go into a music shop and count on finding the music of my race represented, into a supermarket and find the staple foods which fit with my cultural traditions, into a hairdresser's shop and find someone who can cut my hair.

13. Whether I use checks, credit cards or cash, I can count on my skin color not to work against the appearance of financial reliability.

14. I can arrange to protect my children most of the time from people who might not like them.

15. I do not have to educate my children to be aware of systemic racism for their own daily physical protection.

16. I can be pretty sure that my children's teachers and employers will tolerate them if they fit school and workplace norms; my chief worries about them do not concern others' attitudes toward their race.

17. I can talk with my mouth full and not have people put this down to my color.

18. I can swear, or dress in second hand clothes, or not answer letters, without having people attribute these choices to the bad morals, the poverty or the illiteracy of my race.

19. I can speak in public to a powerful male group without putting my race on trial.

20. I can do well in a challenging situation without being called a credit to my race.

21. I am never asked to speak for all the people of my racial group.

22. I can remain oblivious of the language and customs of persons of color who constitute the world's majority without feeling in my culture any penalty for such oblivion.

23. I can criticize our government and talk about how much I fear its policies and behavior without being seen as a cultural outsider.

24. I can be pretty sure that if I ask to talk to the "person in charge", I will be facing a person of my race.

25. If a traffic cop pulls me over or if the IRS audits my tax return, I can be sure I haven't been singled out because of my race.

26. I can easily buy posters, post-cards, picture books, greeting cards, dolls, toys and children's magazines featuring people of my race.

27. I can go home from most meetings of organizations I belong to feeling somewhat tied in, rather than isolated, out-of-place, outnumbered, unheard, held at a distance or feared.

28. I can be pretty sure that an argument with a colleague of another race is more likely to jeopardize her/his chances for advancement than to jeopardize mine.

29. I can be pretty sure that if I argue for the promotion of a person of another race, or a program centering on race, this is not likely to cost me heavily within my present setting, even if my colleagues disagree with me.

30. If I declare there is a racial issue at hand, or there isn't a racial issue at hand, my race will lend me more credibility for either position than a person of color will have.

31. I can choose to ignore developments in minority writing and minority activist programs, or disparage them, or learn from them, but in any case, I can find ways to be more or less protected from negative consequences of any of these choices.

32. My culture gives me little fear about ignoring the perspectives and powers of people of other races.

33. I am not made acutely aware that my shape, bearing or body odor will be taken as a reflection on my race.

34. I can worry about racism without being seen as self-interested or self-seeking.

35. I can take a job with an affirmative action employer without having my co-workers on the job suspect that I got it because of my race.

36. If my day, week or year is going badly, I need not ask of each negative episode or situation whether it had racial overtones.

37. I can be pretty sure of finding people who would be willing to talk with me and advise me about my next steps, professionally.

38. I can think over many options, social, political, imaginative or professional, without asking whether a person of my race would be accepted or allowed to do what I want to do.

39. I can be late to a meeting without having the lateness reflect on my race.

40. I can choose public accommodation without fearing that people of my race cannot get in or will be mistreated in the places I have chosen.

41. I can be sure that if I need legal or medical help, my race will not work against me.

42. I can arrange my activities so that I will never have to experience feelings of rejection owing to my race.

43. If I have low credibility as a leader I can be sure that my race is not the problem.

44. I can easily find academic courses and institutions which give attention only to people of my race.

45. I can expect figurative language and imagery in all of the arts to testify to experiences of my race.

46. I can chose blemish cover or bandages in "flesh" color and have them more or less match my skin.

47. I can travel alone or with my spouse without expecting embarrassment or hostility in those who deal with us.

48. I have no difficulty finding neighborhoods where people approve of our household.

49. My children are given texts and classes which implicitly support our kind of family unit and do not turn them against my choice of domestic partnership.

50. I will feel welcomed and "normal" in the usual walks of public life, institutional and social.

[marmar]

41. Great post....I remember this from an "Undoing Racism" worshop I attended

The ones you bolded have definitely been in play in a lot of the threads today.

[Generic Brad]

43. Consider the source

I mean, you got the first mainstream hair transplantee who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy. I mean, that's a storybook, man.

[Leopolds Ghost]

52. What about Donald Trump? n/t

[Bonobo]

45. And some of my best friends are black...

[Qanisqineq]

46. I think it would have been a compliment

if he would have left off the "first" and the "who is". If he had said something more along the lines of: "Obama is articulate, bright, clean, nice-looking, and African-American," Biden said. "I mean, that's a storybook, man." I do think that is more along what Biden was trying to say although I don't really understand the whole "clean" part. I mean... he could be using "articulate" because Bush is definitely not. It's not like all white politicians are articulate.

Ah hell, I don't know. Even my make-over of his sentence doesn't sound all that great. It pisses me off that Biden uses this stereotype but in some ways I think it just came out wrong. All I can say is that the sentence was stupid but I don't know his feelings or beliefs behind it so I should just shut up. It isn't for me to say how offensive it was. I wasn't going to vote for him to be the democratic candidate anyway. The only thing I really like about him is I think he sounds like the Smuckers man.

[WiseButAngrySara]

48. I tend to agree. ....n/t

[BlooInBloo]

53. lol! We all knew the DU bigot-defense brigade wouldn't be long in coming...

... All playing their "but it's just a compliment" roles to the hilt! Pretending with such SOLEMNITY that such statements are used as compliments.

Good job bigot defenders! Are the Oscars coming up?


Reminds me of great compliments professors write for some of their students "She has great oral hygiene", for example.

I've always wondered though - whom precisely do you bigot-defenders suppose you're fooling? (Don't let that take away from my COMPLIMENTING you on your WONDERFUL lying abilities.)

:rofl: :rofl:

[fishwax]

59. BlooInBloo, several recent threads have called to mind a few points you made

last year. First in (I think) the tar baby threads, where you said that white people don't think it can possibly racism unless someone uses the n-word. Then, after the Michael Richards incident, when some were defending him, you had to revise that, and say that EVEN WHEN someone uses the n-word it apparently isn't enough.

It was a great point then, and remains sadly (but not surprisingly) quite current.

[BlooInBloo]

65. holy shit - someone actually listened? lol!

[fishwax]

66. alas, it often seems the choir are the only ones that do

:banghead:

But, yeah, I often look for your posts on such threads--if nothing else, they make it easy to laugh at the ignorance of others :rofl::banghead:

:argh:

[bridgit]

55. i don't see a problem with what Biden said, it was mentioned that...

Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, Maxine Waters are articulate...that is a given; had Biden been called on 'stating the obvious' :shrug: cause i don't get it

should he have said, "Obama is as articulate as, no-less articulate than..." and read some laundry list from which he may have left someone's fav individual out to then have caused yet another shit-storm

[frustrated_lefty]

60. Let the circular firing squad commence.

Biden is one of the last of a generation that fails to grasp pc-language. He's not my favorite candidate, but anyone who tries to portray his words as racist or even subliminally racist is just massaging their own pc-ego.

It's no goddamned wonder the pubs kick our asses when we get in a snit over something so incredibly silly.

Sure, Joe Biden is about as racist as Ted Kennedy is a communist.

[cboy4]

61. I absolutely agree with you!

NOT

[alittlelark]

63. Uh, yeah.......

Guess what, we ALL have racist elements to our personalities...........Sad, but admittedly true.


He F'ed up. End of story. Let his constituents decide what to do w/ him.


The bottom line is we are sending in over 20,000 new troops to IRAQ!!!!!

Let's skip this Paris/Nichole SHIT!!!!!!!!