This is about Social Security....I urge all DUers.....

[suston96]

....to pay attention. Social Security is under attack by almost all ideologues and economists on the right and maybe, sadly, from the spineless elsewhere.

You say you are many years away from Social Security and Medicare? Go to your bathroom mirror. Look at your face. You are minutes older than when you first started reading this post. And no matter what you do, that face in the mirror will age, whether you look at it everyday, every hour, every minute or not at all.

Go to the links below and visit the other socialsecurity.gov links. Learn and remember what you read.

http://www.ssa.gov/history/hfaq.html

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=9517125&mesg_id=9520145

Please check my journal. I write plenty on Social Security.

Kill the opposition with facts. Cuts to Social Security and Medicare only abdicate the responsibility of the reigning government to fix the economy and lower the unemployment rate. which are, without question.....

...the only real solutions to resolving the "problem" with Social Security and Medicare.

[SidDithers]

1. Unrec...nt

Sid

[trayfoot]

2. UNREC????????

[Name removed]

6. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TexasObserver]

22. How does his opinion justify your personal attack on him?

There are many reasons to unrec a thread, and his are just as good as yours are for recommending it.

Unrec is a feature, not a right. Just because someone starts a thread you like doesn't mean everyone thinks it belongs on the Greatest Page. A good topic can be flawed by poor presentation.

I don't recommend or unrecommend this thread, but I do unrecommend posts whining about those who use the feature.

[rhett o rick]

93. I agree if he had given an opinion, but he didnt. If you wish to un-rec feel free. But if you feel

you need to tell everyone that you un-rec'd, have the decency to state why. I second what ever #6 said.

[TexasObserver]

98. Take it to the Ask the Admins forum.

This littering of threads by those who whine incessantly about the unrec feature should end. If you want to change the feature, tell the admins. If you want to require posters to state their opinion beyond saying "unrec," tell it to the admins.

He has an opinion of the topic. He's entitled to his opinion, and he's entitled to make it without getting personal attacks from those who can't stand the notion that someone may disagree with them.

As for your "decency to state why" meme, it's been beaten to death by those who share your point of view. Again, tell it to the admins.

[bobbolink]

248. "He's entitled to his opinion" "This littering of threads by those who whine incessantly about

the unrec feature should end."

You must have a painful case of whiplash from that magnificent cognitive dissonance. :crazy:

[laundry_queen]

142. That is this particular person's

MO. He runs around unrecc'ing without ever explaining why. He must think we care.

[cleanhippie]

186. How many people K&R a post without explaining why?

Do those people also need to "have the decency to state why?"

[laundry_queen]

214. I often do.

Sometimes I don't. It's when I see that it's become a habit with certain posters to run around and "K&R nt" or "Unrec nt" every second fricken thread, with no explanation, where it becomes bizarre and/or annoying.

[cleanhippie]

239. It is annoying, but not worth getting upset about.

I think we only encourage those types of posts by responding to them.

[rhett o rick]

231. Unrec is fine. Posting that you unrec w/o explaination is only asking for trouble. Look at the

reaction here. Not necessary to post that you unrec unless you have the decency to explain.

[cleanhippie]

240. I tend to agree, but it is only asking for trouble if we respond to it.

Just ignore those posts, they mean nothing.

[rhett o rick]

244. Yes and I agree with that. nm

[TexasObserver]

247. Unrec is fine, and so is posting it without comment.

The problem is the inability of some posters who can't stand reading a post they don't like.

These attacks on those who simply post "unrec" are based upon one thing only: the inability of some posters to tolerate seeing things they don't like.

Put the poster on Ignore if you don't like seeing Unrec. And put me on Ignore, too, if you don't like hearing that you don't have the right to attack those who post "unrec."

[rhett o rick]

249. You definition of "attack" is unclear. You defend the freedom of those that show their disapproval

by not only unrec'ing but posting that they are unrec'ing, but you complain and state that I attacked, because i spoke my disapproval. Seems somehow inconsistent.

Wont you defend my right to say that the practice of posting "unrec" without explanation is rude and potentially disruptive?

This poster has done this a lot and I havent stated my objection. However, when it disrupts a thread, then i feel i have a right to speak out.

[TexasObserver]

250. Voting Unrec and saying so is within the rules. Attacking those who do so is not.

You can try to dress it up any way you want, but what you're doing is refusing to allow without personal attack the opinion of the poster to the OP. That's what unrec is.

When you attack the poster for posting unrec, you're not addressing the OP. You're attacking a person for not agreeing with YOU.

It doesn't disrupt the thread to post Unrec. It does disrupt the thread for you to attack the person who does so.

If you don't like seeing it, put the poster on Ignore. Why are you incapable to taking the one action that will free you from the agony of seeing "Unrec"?

[rhett o rick]

251. What is your definition of "attack"? I did nothing more than you are doing now. If you look at the

thread you will notice that a good share of the thread has been diverted by this poster. And how many messages were deleted because of reactions to the post? I call that disruption.

[ProudDad]

95. Unrec is bullshit... (n/t)

[TexasObserver]

99. Whining about Unrec is bullshit.

It's a feature, a vote. It's not a slap in the face. It's not a personal attack. It's a statement that one has considered the thread and found it unworthy of a vote to send it to the Greatest Page.

Instead of getting upset, accept that it is the vote of someone who doesn't owe you any explanation as to why they disagree with your conclusion. They don't, you know.

[Hannah Bell]

103. whining about whining about unrec is bullshit.

[TexasObserver]

107. Skinner called the objections to the use of unrec "Whining."

And it is.

Whining is complaining that someone else disagrees with your vote on the rec/unrec issue. I don't disagree with your vote on rec/unrec, no matter how you vote. I don't care how you vote. I do care about incessant whining about the feature and those who use it. Content yourself with your vote, and stop whining about the vote of others who don't agree with you.

See Skinner's posts on the topic for elucidation.

[Hannah Bell]

109. so kwitcher whining.

[TexasObserver]

110. Is that from wsws?

Hey look, there goes Marx!

[Hannah Bell]

112. get a new act, that one's old.

[Name removed]

116. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TexasObserver]

118. Read Skinner's comments where he debunks your supposition.

[Hannah Bell]

121. did he nominate you as enforcer? if not, follow his policy & kwitcher whining.

[TexasObserver]

122. I follow his policies and suggest you do the same.

Please desist your personal attacks.

[Hannah Bell]

123. the only personal attack in this subthread was yours, here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=9520626&mesg_id=9525974

so i suggest you mind your own house.

[cleanhippie]

190. Thats not a personal attack.

[cleanhippie]

188. You sure are doing a lot of whining about people whining. Are you related to the pot or the kettle?

[pattmarty]

127. This is about SS. Quit the fucking bullshit!

[rhett o rick]

229. Unrec'ing is fine. Posting that you unrec is asking for trouble. Look at the trouble that was

stirred up in this thread. It was unnecessary. If this was the only case, no big deal, but it isnt.

[TexasObserver]

246. Unreccing is fine and so is posting it.

If you don't like seeing it, put the poster on Ignore. The problem is your reaction to a post that you don't like.

[liberalhistorian]

273. You know, for someone who's

tired of a particular issue, you sure do harp and harp and harp on it. It's beginning to sound like, ahem, whining.

[TexasObserver]

274. The issue is the abuse by those who hate Unrec toward those who use it.

Do you understand the difference between arguing that each person is entitled to state their opinion of the OP as to whether it should be recommended or unrecommended, and heaping condemnation on those who choose to vote differently than you? I don't care how you vote on threads and you shouldn't care how I vote.

When has anyone here thrown a hissy fit because someone Recommended a thread? I recommend at least ten threads a day and post that on the thread. No one ever complains about that. No one demands an explanation. No one claims that is the work of trolls, or freepers, or such. None of those who get outraged at the sight of UNREC on a thread care about the Recommending that takes place.

This controversy is about one thing: Will the DU population be held hostage by the couple of dozen posters who viciously attack those who use the Unrec feature as it was designed by Skinner and the admins? Poll after poll here has shown that only a very small number of posters dislike Unrec. It is a huge success. It has eliminated all the threads from the Greatest Page that made their way there because small cliques voted them there.

I argue over the issue because it's important not to give in to those who pitch a fit because they can't stand the use of the unrec feature.

[cleanhippie]

187. whining about whining about whining about unrec is bullshit.

[rhett o rick]

245. Whining about ...... damn i lost track....well it's just wrong anyways. nm

[polmaven]

130. +1

When will we get over all the whining around here? Apparently differing opinions are unacceptable to some.

[Hannah Bell]

12. rec

[defendandprotect]

236. K& R and a kick --

[sabrina 1]

19. Can you explain why you would want to take away SS from

the disabled, dependent children and the elderly. The most vulnerable members of society, and a program that is the most successful and fiscally responsible program ever?

It is also probably the program that Democrats can be most proud of, nothing Republicans have ever done comes close to it.

Since this is a Democratic Board can you please the presence of an anti SS attitude here?

Oh, and rec'd and :kicked:

[sam sarrha]

70. because Wealth is the measure of gods favor of a man, the poor are being punished, it is a sin to

help them.. just as it is a sin to tax a rich man.. for being favored by god.

this all sounds like "The Devine Rights of Kings".. but if you listen really carefully... it sounds mure like Nazis.

http://www.commondreams.org/views04/1207-26.htm
"snip...According to this carefully researched and well-vetted BBC documentary, Richard Nixon, following in the steps of his mentor and former boss Dwight D. Eisenhower, believed it was possible to end the Cold War and eliminate fear from the national psyche. The nation need no longer be afraid of communism or the Soviet Union. Nixon worked out a truce with the Soviets, meeting their demands for safety as well as the US needs for security, and then announced to Americans that they need no longer be afraid.

In 1972, President Richard Nixon returned from the Soviet Union with a treaty worked out by Secretary of State Henry Kissinger, the beginning of a process Kissinger called "d�tente." On June 1, 1972, Nixon gave a speech in which he said, "Last Friday, in Moscow, we witnessed the beginning of the end of that era which began in 1945. With this step, we have enhanced the security of both nations. We have begun to reduce the level of fear, by reducing the causes of fear�for our two peoples, and for all peoples in the world."

But Nixon left amid scandal and Ford came in, and Ford's Secretary of Defense (Donald Rumsfeld) and Chief of Staff (Dick Cheney) believed it was intolerable that Americans might no longer be bound by fear. Without fear, how could Americans be manipulated?...snip"


my personal opinion is that The GOP is a Cargo Cult, *a mentally ill group of psychotic OCD wealth Hoarders. The GOP is simply a puppet arm of the *Oligarchy that actually runs this country. Many of the same Cabinet Members of every GOP president since Nixon actually studied under Leo Straus, the Father of the NeoCons, at the U of Chicago

meet the Dominionists...

http://doggo.tripod.com/doggchrisdomin.html
"snip...Leo Strauss was born in 1899 and died in 1973. ... He is most famous for resuscitating Machiavelli and introducing his principles as the guiding philosophy of the neo-conservative movement. ... More than any other man, Strauss breathed upon conservatism, inspiring it to rise from its atrophied condition and its natural dislike of change and to embrace an unbounded new political ideology that rides on the back of a revolutionary steed, hailing even radical change; hence the name Neo-Conservatives.

Significantly, Dominionism is a form of Social Darwinism.<48> It inherently includes the religious belief that wealth-power is a sign of God’s election. That is, out of the masses of people and the multitude of nations, wealth, in and of itself, is thought to indicate God’s approval on men and nations whereas poverty and sickness reflect God’s disapproval.

(It was not until I read this article that I realized that this is a fundamental tenet of Dominionists.

Worldly wealth and power are signs of God's favor -- to attempt to limit or decrease one's wealth and power is to disrespect God.

On the contrary, God's elect on Earth are called upon to increase their wealth and power.

It is not sufficient for a man to be a millionaire, or for a country to have sovereignty within its borders -- a man must strive to increase his wealth as much as possible, and a Dominionist government's behavior toward its neighbors must be "invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity".

Furthermore, any attempt to decrease a person's or a country's wealth and power -- to take from the rich to give to the poor, to reduce military spending and power -- is a direct attack on God.)

If “Secular Humanists are the greatest threat to Christianity the world has ever known,” as theologian Francis Schaeffer claimed, then who are the Humanists? According to Dominionists, humanists are the folks who allow or encourage licentious behavior in America. They are the undisciplined revelers.

Put all the enemies of the Dominionists together, boil them down to liquid and bake them into the one single most highly derided and contaminated individual known to man, and you will have before you an image of the quintessential “liberal” -- one of those folks who wants to give liberally to the poor and needy -- who desires the welfare and happiness of all Americans -- who insists on safety regulations for your protection and who desires the preservation of your values -- those damnable people are the folks that must be reduced to powerlessness -- or worse: extinction.

What would a “reconstructed” America look like under the Dominionists? K.L. Gentry, a Dominionist himself, suggests the following “elements of a theonomic approach to civic order,” which I strongly suggest should be compared to the Texas GOP platform of 2002, which reveals that we are not just talking about imaginary ideas but some things are already proposed on Republican agendas.<60> Dominionism’s concept of government according to Gentry is as follows:

“1. It obligates government to maintain just monetary policies ... fiat money, fractional reserve banking, and deficit spending.

“2. It provides a moral basis for elective government officials. ...

“3. It forbids undue, abusive taxation of the rich. ...

“4. It calls for the abolishing of the prison system and establishing a system of just restitution. *...

“5. A theonomic approach also forbids the release, pardoning, and paroling of murderers by requiring their execution. ...

“6. It forbids industrial pollution that destroys the value of property. ...

“7. It punishes malicious, frivolous malpractice suits. ...

“8. It forbids abortion rights. ... Abortion is not only a sin, but a crime, and, indeed, a capital crime.”<61>
. . .

* Gary North describes the ‘just restitution’ system of the bible, which happens to reinstitute slavery,
like this:


“At the other end of the curve, the poor man who steals is eventually caught and sold into bondage under a successful person. His victim receives payment; he receives training; his buyer receives a stream of labor services. If the servant is successful and buys his way out of bondage, he re-enters society as a disciplined man, and presumably a self-disciplined man. He begins to accumulate wealth.” ...snip”
comment… this is proof how much they are in control... the richest 1% have 42% of Americas Financial Wealth, 6 TIMES what the bottom 80% Americans only have at 7% of the nations financial wealth !! and they say Socialism sucks.. and cry baby about Liberal Wealth Redistribution

http://sociology.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/power/wealth.htmlThis document presents details on the wealth and income distributions in the United States, and explains how we use these two distributions as power indicators.

Some of the information might be a surprise to many people. The most amazing numbers on income inequality come last, showing the change in the ratio of the average CEO's paycheck to that of the average factory worker over the past 40 years

The top 1% richest Americans hold 42% of the Nations Financial wealth, the bottom holds 7% of Financial Wealth and 72% of private Debt.. SOOO…1% has 6 times the wealth of the bottom 80%
the top 20% holds 93% of Financial Wealth.. now is it plain why there is a recession and no jobs..??

it's no joke.. the END is near..!! like one paycheck away, one election away..!!

The Dogs aren't the problem.. it's the Rabies..!

[Divine Discontent]

92. AMEN! preach the truth. I heard a woman today tell her daughter who was getting chemo treatment

that Haiti (which was on tv) and places like New Orleans had been subjected to God's punishment for the ways they live in those areas with their voodoo and such...

now, ignoring the fact that she's saying essentially that God, therefore, punished her daughter with cancer, the argument that God blesses with wealth and those who are poor aren't blessed, etc. is just blasphemous BS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That is so against the humility and poverty of Christ. These money grubbers are just obsessed with their own well being, and treat those who aren't as servants and lazy sinful types who are in their circumstances because they aren't favored...

just disgusting, and truly anti-Christian, anti-moral, anti-civil...

thanks for your post.

[stuart68]

119. could wealth be food when oyu are hungry ?

If so, wealth can come from satan as well, ie, Jesus fasting in the desert.

Wealth is a tricky thing. Blessings come from what you do with your resources as opposed to the fact you have them. I believe that i God wanted a person to be wealthy, He would simply make that happen. I alos believe that in the greatest suffering, some of the greatest blessings are provided (aka Mother Theresa).

Careful how you define wealth.

[awoke_in_2003]

184. No, but wealth can allow you to buy food...

the rest of the your "divine plan" crap is psychobabble for the easily distracted.

[awoke_in_2003]

185. No, but wealth can allow you to buy food...

the rest of the your "divine plan" crap is psychobabble for the easily distracted.

[sam sarrha]

259. i have absolutely have no idea what you are talking about...

:shrug:

[stuart68]

267. Pay attention

Before you fire off the insults, you might want to think a little. I have no divine plan.......

[sam sarrha]

270. whatever... that says nothing

[sam sarrha]

260. careful how you totally missed the point.. top 1% has 6 times the bottom 80%, many places 20% of

children go to school hungry..

my point is that we are being ROBBED BLIND... THE TOP 20% HAS 93% OF THE COUNTRIES FINANCIAL WEALTH.. !!

IF YOU DON'T THINK THAT ISN'T AN F'n CRIME YOU NEED TO GO HANG OUT AT THE FREE REPUBLIC WITH THE DOMINIONISTS

[stuart68]

268. Think before you spew insults

Re-read my post before you spew you condescending comments....

[sam sarrha]

271. i didn't define wealth.... other than" financial" as a statistic

[polmaven]

131. AMEN indeed!

a phrase that often comes to mind when I hear or read that type of BS is straight form Scrooge. "Let them die and decrease the surplus population".

[cleanhippie]

191. Uh, where did that poster state any of that? How did you get all of that intent from "unrec" ?

If you can read that posters mind, then the force is strong with you.

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SammyWinstonJack]

26. +1

[City Lights]

53. +1. nt

[Skittles]

54. there's a buttload of DUers doing that

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Raster]

29. Point.

[MichiganVote]

31. Apparently you haven't paid into SS.

[cleanhippie]

192. How do you figure that the poster has not pain into SS? All he said was "unrec".

You certainly got a lot more from one word than I did.

[MichiganVote]

257. Apparently I did. Next time I'll share with you.

[cleanhippie]

278. Right, so you just pretty much made it up out of whole cloth?

Apparently you did.

[countrydad58]

33. I think someone

else needs that enema.

[True_Blue]

36. LOL!

:thumbsup:

[Canuckistanian]

44. C'mon, Sid, what's with you?

You've been unreccing posts left and right... including some that are obviously progressive.

What gives? And even if you unrec, why do you feel the need to advertise the fact?

I think you owe us an explanation.

[Altoid_Cyclist]

137. Thank you!

I was afraid that I was the only person aware of the recent trend.

Every time I just shake my head and think WHY????

[Name removed]

56. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Dragonfli]

63. Why do you hate SS so much? Please converse, I want to know your POV

You unrec every single thread in support of this program, such chronic behavior implies you have real issues with the program, pleas explain your issues so that we may understand you.

[Cetacea]

87. Who cares?

Unrec duly noted.

[cleanhippie]

193. Where did he state he hated SS?

All he said was "unrec". Thats it. Please tell me how you got that he hated SS from a single word.

[Dragonfli]

198. He chronically unrecs threads in support of SS without explanation

I don't know if he hates it or just doesn't want anyone to support the program, that's why I asked for a little more than his typical nt on the subject.

Why else would he unrec so many threads in support of SS?
Without any dialogue I can only conclude he hates the damn thing, if he was neutral he would simply ignore the threads, but to go to such extremes as chronically unreccing anything in support of SS I have reached the only conclusion available to me.

Do you have a better explanation for this behaviour?

[rhett o rick]

226. Here's how I see it. If a person wishes to "unrec", they are free to do so. However,

if they unrec and then post that they "unrec" with out explanation, they are only stirring up trouble. I am sure this poster wasnt trying to stir up trouble, but that is certainly what happened.

[cleanhippie]

241. I don't know the answers to your questions.

Only the original poster does, but by assuming what you think he may mean only leads to threads like this one. Just ignore him. Its not worth getting upset about. There are thousands of other threads and sub-threads where people will explain themselves.

[treestar]

276. Some may see these threads not in support of SS but in support

of unnecessary hysteria, drummed up, over mere proposals.

When Bush said that he was sorry he didn't privatize it, were there 90 threads per day on DU about that? Whenever a Republican says so, are there 1000 posts in horror at that?

Oh no, just because this commission is on during Obama's term and SOME of them suggest it - this tenuous tie is the most you have on Obama. The point of the threads is to make Obama look like he supports cutting it.

[donheld]

67. Why?

:wtf:

[katandmoon]

83. To do otherwise implies criticism of Obama's Catfood Commission.

[Ignis]

203. Nailed it in one.

:thumbsup:

[Name removed]

189. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Dr.Phool]

85. Fucking double rec.

[Skittles]

88. HA HA

+155 :rofl:

[tavalon]

111. How'd that work for ya?

[racaulk]

134. +222

:rofl:

[COLGATE4]

135. Just out of curiosity - do you ever post anything except "rec" or "unrec"?

[Name removed]

232. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Oceansaway]

3. K&R...n/t

[BeFree]

4. SS Truth

The government is feasting on the largess of the working folks SS savings.

Whatever was socked away for SS has been spent on the defense budget.
Kiss your SS savings goodbye, the DoD got to it first and spent nearly all of the funds leaving an IOU.

[closeupready]

15. Treasury bonds are not IOUs.

Stop spreading GOP lies here, please.

[BeFree]

17. It's true

I see you don't have a response except to say what little you said.

Truth is, the treasury has taken the SS money and told SS "we owe you".
And it owes SS 2 Trillion or more.

[closeupready]

20. Yes, that's called "a Treasury Bond" - NOT "an IOU".

Stop spreading reich-wing lies about social security.

[RaleighNCDUer]

23. Yep. And defaulting on those treasury bonds would COLLAPSE

the US and possibly the world's economic system - would the nations that also hold US Treasury
Bonds have any faith in the US repaying them if they saw us default on these treasury bonds?

If we default on SS we will have a LOT more to worry about than seniors getting their checks.

[closeupready]

24. Agreed 100%.

n/t

[Recursion]

32. Except they aren't normal bonds

That's why the SSA can't sell them.

The idea of "renegotiating" Treasury's obligations to the Trust Fund was always an implicit possibility in how it was set up, which is why Gore wanted to trash it and make his "lockbox". (Though his particular idea as he campaigned on it probably would have made things worse.)

[Hannah Bell]

105. they don't *need* to sell them. whether or not they can sell them is completely irrelevant to

anything -- but it is a standard winger talking point.

"they're not *real*! they can't be sold!"

big fucking deal.

they aren't going to "renegotiate" anything unless the electorate rolls over for it.

[Recursion]

139. It matters in that SSA is a captive creditor

What's the saying? If I owe my bank $50,000, I have a big problem; if I owe my bank $2.5 trillion, my bank has a big problem.

Whether or not the electorate rolls over for the argument, a sufficiently-bought Congress might. Nobody will care that FICA has contributed to the budget for decades, once SSA starts being a net negative (which I believe was this year), especially with the debt psychosis being what it is now.

[BeFree]

151. Thanks recursion

It is good to see that someone else gets it.

Not that I really get it, but I have a good idea. And yours are even better.

[defendandprotect]

52. +1 --

[defendandprotect]

47. US has also told China "we owe you" .... has the US ever failed to honor its payments

on Treasury securities?

[BeFree]

89. Honor?

What they do is issue more IOUs and take that money raised and pay back the Chinese.

I think it's been called a Ponzi scheme?

[Lasher]

101. Another right wing talking point.

Social Security is not a ponzi scheme.

[BeFree]

144. whoa sport

I did not refer to SS as a ponzi. SS is socialism and I are a socialist.

The above reference was to how the feddies finance things via bonds.

SS is supported by the working man's blood sweat and tears. Real stuff.

Apology accepted if given.... o

[Lasher]

277. OK let's review

In this thread about Social Security, here's what you said:

Whatever was socked away for SS has been spent on the defense budget.
Kiss your SS savings goodbye, the DoD got to it first and spent nearly all of the funds leaving an IOU.

They have stolen the SS funds. Now they are trying to cover up that theft.

Right now, the theft is on the books as a debt from the treasury to SS.

You did get the 'spending like it was a bottomless pit'. That pit was full of the SS funds we entrusted them with.

They spent it. We are running a huge deficit.

The first thing you have to realize is that most of the reserve is now just paper notes. Not even cash, but paper notes. You do grok that, right?

Rightwing talking point: The money's been spent and there's nothing left but worthless pieces of paper.

What they do is issue more IOUs and take that money raised and pay back the Chinese.

I think it's been called a Ponzi scheme?

Rightwing talking point: Social Security is a ponzi scheme.

Now you're trying to say you were taling about something else? Sorry, that dog don't hunt. But you might be able to redeem yourself by groveling now for forgiveness.

[Hannah Bell]

106. only by wingers who don't understand what a ponzi scheme actually is.

debt to the chinese is a small portion of total debt. and the only reason we have debt in the first place is the banksters & offshore manufacturers are making money on it. we don't *have* to borrow from them.

[Recursion]

140. Well, hopefully we're watching the death throes of the semi-private central bank worldwide

The worry is how much of the economy are they going to take with them as they go.

Here lies the US Federal Reserve. It was sunk by the QE2...

[defendandprotect]

201. Wall Street Journal and right wing propaganda on

Social Security has been a 30 year campaign to suggest it's a "Ponzi Scheme" -

but unlike a Ponzi Scheme there is no huge payoff for anyone at the top ---

EXCEPT .... THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT WALL STREET IS LOOKING FOR in trying to get their

hands on Social Security funds!!

The scheme you should keep your eye on is that pushed by the fascists at the WSJ --

and the right wing fascists in control of our press.

bye --

[RaleighNCDUer]

172. Not since the 1840s. nt

[sabrina 1]

115. Treasury has already honored those bonds. They have never failed

to do so. You are completely wrong. If the U.S. ever defaults on those bonds to the SS Fund, that would be a declaration to the rest of the world that the U.S. can no longer honor its debt EVEN to its own people. And that would be the end of this country. Do you have any idea what you are saying? Please stop with the rightwing talking points. If I want to read them, I know where to find them. Other than from Alan Simpson et al.

What the right has always wanted is to keep that fund available to keep borrowing from, all raising the retirement age would do is to increase the fund, it would NOT reduce the deficit, not by a single dime. Interest is paid into the SS fund every year. And if the Government is so strapped for money that it cannot meet its obligations, then it can do several things. Top of the list, end both wars. End the Bush tax cuts, that alone would pay what is owed to the SS fund.

They don't need to have a deficit, they need to stop spending money on unnecessary things, like wars and the military budget. SS is NOT, not even remotely responsible for any of the current financial problems in this country. To say so is a huge lie, as big as the WMD lies.

[BeFree]

148. Understood...

....You are confused... and scared.

They have stolen the SS funds. Now they are trying to cover up that theft.

Right now, the theft is on the books as a debt from the treasury to SS.

If they can erase that debt, the deficit goes down by an equal amount.

They are trying to erase that debt.

SS is not responsible for the debt. I never claimed it was. SS has been a huge bank account from which funds have been drawn = stolen.

[closeupready]

153. Precisely how are they attempting to erase US treasury bonds? Be specific.

Or as specific as you can, as though we are dummies.

[BeFree]

157. Can you read?

I said they are going to erase the debt and the deficit.

[closeupready]

159. Oh, okay, but how - inflation? That's a possibility.

But aren't bonds indexed to account for inflation? And certainly, SS benefits are indexed using COLA adjustments.

[BeFree]

160. Now you're thinking

And I can't answer those questions.

All I know is that they have stolen the money and are just now getting caught, so they are in cover-up mode. That's all I grok. That and I know they are inventing ways everyday to steal more of our hard earned wages.

[defendandprotect]

206. Right wing criminality is widespread .... having nothing to do with

the integrity of Social Security --

Right wing are stealing from taxpayers at every turn as they corrupt government

and our elected officials --

That isn't in any way a reflection upon Social Security --

It's simply saying that the right wing are a criminal element -- and a threat to

all Americans, to our Treasury -- in general -- and to democracy!

With that, I agree!!

Looks like Obama is dragging his feet on exiting Afghanistan now .... if so these

two wars will bankrupt the Treasury!

Endless ways that criminals act -- what's lacking is response!!

[Recursion]

164. That's why they can't print their way out of paying for SS

There's no legal reason the Fed couldn't just apply quantitative easing to the SS Trust Fund. However, that would be very inflationary, because the money would be spent. But SS's outlays are tied to inflation, so as they print their way out, it makes them need to print more.

Now, I'm not an inflation hawk; I think we could use a lot more inflation now than we have. But I certainly wouldn't want to start by deliberately making an inflation spiral.

The SS trust fund is a 2.5 trillion dollar debt the government owes to workers.

Paying that debt will require some combination of:

1. Raising taxes
2. Cutting spending
3. Borrowing money
4. Printing money

To the extent that those 4 do not add up to about 2 trillion over the next twenty years or so (or something like that; I forget how much is supposed to be left over when the baby bust hits retirement, at which point we're on actuarial easy street for another 20-30 years), benefits will be reduced.

[sabrina 1]

205. Ending the Bush tax cuts, which have cost this country trillions

would go a long way towards helping them pay off some of the deficit. And that's why they must do so.

[Recursion]

207. Yes, that is necessary, but it's not enough: projections assume they all expire this year

All the deficits we project have always been on the assumption that all of the Bush tax cuts would expire at the end of the year. Any extension of anyone's tax cuts (even the middle class) will add to those deficits (obviously extending the tax cuts for the rich will add much more). That is, eliminating all of the tax cuts gets us to where our projections currently say we are, and that is itself not a very good place.

Now, if the GDP grows faster than we project, or if more of the projected growth goes into wages than we project (ie, any), that also helps things.

[sabrina 1]

195. They've been borrowed, not stolen.

Interest is paid every year, as it was this year and will continue to be.

The can pay it back, that is different from not wanting to do so.

By accepting the lies, you are helping them to grow the fund so that they can continue to use it for more wars and to cover more of their real theft, from the American people.

If they default on SS, which they know they cannot, they will default on their other creditors.

The SS is simply one of the U.S. Government's many creditors.

As for being scared, and/or confused, why should I be scared since none of it directly affects me. There is no confusion, this country's government, especially over the past decade, has spent like there was a bottomless pit of money, on wars that the people were against, on bailouts of corrupt bankers who should have been prosecuted and their banks nationalized and broken up.

There is no confusion, the U.S. Government needs to stop spending wildly, prosecute those who caused the collapse of the economy and retrieve some of what they stole, end the wars and start prosecuting the war criminals and taking back some of their ill-gotten war profits.

End the Bush tax cuts, slash the military budget, raise taxes on the rich, legalize some of the millions of undocumented workers and let them start paying taxes, raise SS benefits so there is more money out there in the hands of the people and a few other things. Oh, yes and end the costly and failed drug war and legalize at least Marijuana and start collecting taxes on it.

But one thing that should not happen is that the American people, especially the elderly and disabled and dependent children, should never, ever be required to pay for the wild spending of this government. And that will only happen if people have the attitude that you have, acceptance of their lies and excuses and refusal to fight them, allowing them to wipe out all social programs before they are finished.

[BeFree]

197. You are very confused

You did get the 'spending like it was a bottomless pit'. That pit was full of the SS funds we entrusted them with.

They spent it. We are running a huge deficit.

It is not SS fault there is a deficit. But they are blaming SS for the deficit.

Why you are oblivious to that, I haven't a clue. Oh well.

[sabrina 1]

204. Of course they are blaming SS. And you are helping them spread

that lie. You are the one who is confused. The fact that they blame SS is an outrageous lie. Why are you helping them tell that lie?

They must be forced to forget dipping into the people's fund. When they finally accept that they will find other ways to pay off THEIR debts. THEIR debts are not the fault of the American people.

Confused as you are, you are willing to allow people who gambled with other people's money, rather than pay back what they owe, to get off the hook and worse, make the very people from whom the borrowed, pay for their gambling debts by taking a cut in pay. This is sheer nonsense and totally not necessary.

Ending the Bush tax alone would bring down the deficit. This is where they should start, NOT by picking the pockets of the elderly, and the most vulnerable and poor members of society.

I really hope the Democrats fight them fiercely on this. This Commission should be disbanded and if necessary, an executive order issued preventing them from touching that fund. Then they will be forced to raise taxes on the wealthy, which is what they do not want to do.

THEY are fighting fiercely to get what they want. So let's see how much spunk the Democratic majority has to fight just as fiercely to stop them.

You need to educate yourself, you are on the wrong side of this issue, no doubt scared by the lies. Can't say I blame you, I am not scared of the lies though, I am scared that the Democrats will let them get away with those lies.

[BeFree]

208. THEIR debts?

See, you are in denial. THEIR debts, are IUR debts.

Quit, for one blessed second, blaming me and you'll see that we are on the same side.
I just have a less confused picture.

The debt is OUR debt, not theirs, OURS.

[defendandprotect]

211. You are having trouble seeing thru right wing propaganda -- while spreading it --

The money owned to Social Security by Treasury is no different from that

owed to China -- or any other nation -- it will be paid --

Social Security IN NO WAY ADDS TO THE NATIONAL DEBT --

Social Security isn't even supposed to be in the General Budget --

it's there to hide the monstrous MIC budget! Intelligence budget!

And to hide how little taxpayers actually get in return vs what goes to

warmaking and wars.

Social Security is paid for by the employee and the employer -- having nothing

to do with government except as an administrator of the fund -- and that is paid

for out of Social Security funds at about .03%.


Wall Street Journal's Editorials are fascist -- so is its anti-Social Security propaganda.

Their actual economic reporting is usually liberal because the right wing has to

know what's really going on.

[BeFree]

213. heh

That's good to know: the debt "...it will be paid..."

So what's the problem?

And what about whose debt is it?
Or is it not a debt?
If it is a debt, is it their debt?
If it isn't a debt, then no one owes anyone?

Heh, you guys are really confused.

[defendandprotect]

221. Who pays for our MIC except the public .... ??? However employees and employers pay for SS....

THE GOVERNMENT PAYS NOTHING FOR SOCIAL SECURITY --

NEITHER A GAIN NOR A LOSS --

If you want to look at gain and loss for government look to warprofiteering --

and wars bankrupting the Treasury.

Look to right wing corruption of government -- from S&L theft and embezzlements --

to Iran/Contra --

Look to the numbers which actually have something to do with the GENERAL BUDGET ....

which produces our debt --

How about our weapons production for Israel and our funding them with $3 billion every

year to continue warmongering for us in ME?

How about MEDICARE FOR ALL and what it would save in national expense on health care for

the nation -- plus creating 2.3 million jobs?

You're listening to what the Wizard of Oz is telling you -- take a look yourself at the

actual budget and what's causing our debt! It's NOT Social Security!

[Recursion]

209. Well, but, SS *is* a big portion of the national debt

And when the SSA redeems those bonds, that will add significantly to the deficit unless we find a way to pay for it.

[sabrina 1]

218. When China redeems its bonds, that will add significantly to the deficit

unless we find a way to pay for it also. The American people are merely another creditor of the U.S. Government. The U.S. Government must pay its debts to all of its creditors or completely fail as a nation. There is no way that can be allowed to happen.

What you are suggesting put simply is this, if a gambler borrows money to gamble on say, war and corrupt bankers, and then cannot repay his debts, the very people he borrowed from should pay his debts for him. Well, the poorest of his debters he believes, should be saddled with his debts.

Let me ask you something, is the U.S. government trying to make China take a loss on their investment in U.S. Treasury bonds? And if not, why not?

The bottom line is they U.S. government must not be allowed to make good on its debts to everyone BUT the most vulnerable of its debtors, the American people.

Let them default on China, China can afford it more than the elderly, the disabled and dependent children, and btw, WE DID NOT give them permission to dip into those funds.

Do you see how ridiculous the proposals they are making are? They want the people they borrowed from to just take the loss and STFU about it. But ONLY one creditor, the American people. Let's see how some of their other creditors would react if they dared to make this suggestion to them.

Please stop helping them, we are trying to stop them sand it doesn't help when people cave to their fear mongering and lies.

[Recursion]

219. That's certainly true

The American people are merely another creditor of the U.S. Government.

Well, but it's not quite that simple, is it? We're on both ends of the deal here. American people are both receiving and paying for the redemption of that debt.

Let them default on China, China can afford it more than the elderly, the disabled and dependent children, and btw, WE DID NOT give them permission to dip into those funds.

100% agreement. If China keeps lowballing their currency that is a (very extreme) measure we could take.

The bottom line is they U.S. government must not be allowed to make good on its debts to everyone BUT the most vulnerable of its debtors, the American people.

But again, the American people are also the ones who have to pay that debt.

[sabrina 1]

256. If the American people find themselves in the position of having to

pay the debt of those who, without their permission, got them into debt, then the first thing that needs to be done is to start some investigations to find out where the money they stole went and to make them pay restitution. So far, there has been not a single consequence for the crimes committed that brought this country to its knees economically.

Yes, the burden will fall on the American people so that gives them the right to try to retrieve as much of the ill-gotten gains by these crooks, as possible.

But any discussion of touching the SS fund should be off the table and no more borrowing from it allowed.

I've wondered about this before, but maybe the American people need to incorporate so that WE have some say in what goes on in our own government. We need lobbyists pushing those who were elected to start working for us and going after the corporations who are the cause of all this.

[Recursion]

220. Sorry, I skipped your question

Let me ask you something, is the U.S. government trying to make China take a loss on their investment in U.S. Treasury bonds? And if not, why not?

Because a trade war (or worse) is the last thing we need right now.

Also, reneging on a debt to a government agency would not crash world credit markets the way reneging on a debt to another country would.

Still, I doubt anyone would ever literally renege on those bonds; they'd simply instruct SSA that they can't redeem them "at this moment", which would stretch into forever, and the funds would come out of general revenue.

[defendandprotect]

210. Agree -- 1000% --- Wall Street is the "Ponzi Scheme" and the "Casino" ....

End these right wing perpetual wars bankrupting our Treasury --

End the Drug War bankrupting the nation while corrupting government and

its agencies --

[pa28]

269. Well stated.

It's actually the cooler heads who realize SS obligations are just one of many the government has and saying otherwise is giving stock to a right wing narrative.

The government has not stolen the equity contained in the SS trust fund. The theft is only complete when cuts are implemented or withholdings increased to insure a permanent surplus. At that point they've stolen the money and that's what is happening right now.

Now is the perfect time to raise awareness on the issue.

[defendandprotect]

202. K& R --- + 1000% ---

[pattmarty]

128. I think he/she was being facetious.

[closeupready]

147. Hard to tell, even after re-reading. But if so, I apologize, BeFree.

Otherwise, I'd just reiterate that using the language of the reichtards (which is clearly not an attempt to communicate reality, but to propagandize the discussion) serves not to strengthen social security but to weaken its prospects.

[BeFree]

150. I am serious

They have ripped off SS and now they are trying to cover it up and steal even more.

If you don't grok that, or you are not willing to admit you have been ripped off, or whatever, keep up with the silly name calling. Otherwise just stop and think this through.

The first thing you have to realize is that most of the reserve is now just paper notes. Not even cash, but paper notes. You do grok that, right?

[closeupready]

152. No offense, but I can't believe you are asking me that.

Treasury bonds are paper. Um, yeah. So is cash. There is no gold standard anymore. Duh. :wtf: "grok"???? How old are you? I mean, if you are serious about this, can you please do me the courtesy of just using everyday English. Thanks.

[pattmarty]

154. Sorry, I thought he was. Last time I do that.

[BeFree]

156. Cash vs a note

You and I can can trade cash. But the notes are not redeemable.

You do know they have ripped you off? Right?

[closeupready]

158. Treasury bonds are not redeemable? Since when?

Who is 'they'? (Is this the 9/11 forum?)

[BeFree]

161. Right

The SS bonds are not redeemable like cash is.

In order to turn the SS bonds into cash, the treasury would have to borrow the cash from someone.
Or crank up the printers more that they (the bank feddies) are doing now.

[closeupready]

166. No, borrowing is not their only option; government could raise taxes on the wealthy.

This is where, IMO, you have drunk the Koolaid.

The right wing has some kind of implicit understanding that 'we won't ever raise the possibility of raising taxes in order to finance government programs; therefore, we can reasonably claim that the bonds are worthless.'

[BeFree]

169. No shit

And you really think they will raise taxes to repay what they have stolen from you?

Anyway, you are finally thinking. Still have an awful knee-jerk going on, but you are finally thinking. That's good.

[closeupready]

170. I don't share your pessimism, though I know many people who do.

Peace to you. :hi:

[BeFree]

173. Share your optimism then

I am just being real and describing the situation as I see it.

So, share.

[closeupready]

175. I don't really see much of a problem, frankly. According to

the Congressional Budget Office (or the OMB), social security is fully solvent until about 2040, after which benefit can STILL be paid at 75% through the end of the 21st Century.

Further, there is an arbitrary cap on wages which are taxed for social security; that is, wage-earners are taxed on the first $105,000 which they earn. Beginning at $105,001, you pay no social security taxes at all. That cap should be eliminated. It would boost SS revenue signficantly, ending the coming 2040 crisis-to-come.

Taxes go up, taxes go down. Seems like you are arguing taxes never ever go up. That's false.

So I'm much more pessimistic on things like the environment, polar bears and Siberian tigers than I am on fixing a taxpayer-financed government program.

[BeFree]

176. There it is, the difference

They ripped us off and you don't see a problem.

[closeupready]

177. 'They' didn't rip us off, because 'they' didn't rip us off.

And even if they did rip us off, they didn't rip us off merely because you say so.

If you are going to be fair here, you are going to have to present your facts in support of your argument. Otherwise, I'm going to declare victory and move on.

[BeFree]

178. Bwahahaha

"...they didn't rip us off..."

Talk about drinking kool-aid.

[closeupready]

179. Okay, so I win and you lose.

Next topic, please.

[defendandprotect]

212. Right wing has ripped-off our entire government -- bribed our elected officials ....

however NONE of our DEBT has anything to do with Social Security --

it has to do with the criminality of the right wing -- wars bankrupting our Treasury --

Phony Drug War costing tens of billions every year --

Fake wars of aggression -- illegal and immoral -- bankrupting our Treasury!

Mercenaries like Blackwater and right wing schemes to enrich them while privatizing our

military and government -- warprofiteering by the right wing.

We could save an immediate 28% on our MIC by combining the services -- quite a huge savings

there! Every other nation has done that.

There isn't but ONE THING that the right wing has corrupted and stolen --

they've stolen our entire government and democracy!!

[sabrina 1]

114. Not true, yes, they borrow from the fund, but NO, that doesn't mean

'kiss your SS savings goodbye'. When ever anyone spreads that lie, they need to explain how treasury bonds suddenly became valueless. China would like to know.

The SS fund is the most solvent program in this country. The borrowed money WILL be paid. The only reason the greedy, Global Capitalists want to raise the retirement age and cut benefits is because they want the fund to keep growing, so that they can keep borrowing from it for more wars, and bailouts etc.

The SS benefits should be raised not cut. I really wish people would educate themselves about that fund and stop helping Alan Simpson et al spread those lies.

[closeupready]

155. He claims that 'they' are attempting to 'erase' these bonds.

n/t

[defendandprotect]

215. If any Treasury investments can be disappeared ....then I think other nations would be concerned...!

[fascisthunter]

5. we need to monitor our own party leadership

because I do think conservos in our own party want the same shit to happen, just as they went along with Iraq invasion, sweeping Bush war crimes under the rug, and going along with Free Trade BS.

[laughingliberal]

39. +1 nt

[defendandprotect]

49. And, may I suggest, we're a little late to that idea!!! While we were hearing about

"ponies, magic wands, and chess games" and .... "but it's only been X number of days,

weeks, years" the store was being stolen!!

Too many millionaires and multi-millionaires in Congress -- and most of them pre-owned

and pre-bribed by corporate $$$$$$$$$$ --



We're certainly late on catching Obama in his back room deals with Big Pharma --

no Medicare negotiation -- and with private health care industry -- single-payer off the

table --


And it looks like the administration --- Hi Hillary! -- may be using Israel to lead us

into new attacks in the ME!!

[fascisthunter]

81. I Know... it is infuriating

and there are no excuses

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[solara]

8. K&R n/t

[bobburgster]

9. K&R Thanks...

I added you to my buddy list to keep up with the SS cutters plans. I've already written the Pres. and my representatives on this issue.

What the hell is with Sid's "Unrec"?

[suston96]

10. Do not be concerned with an "unrec"...

The real truth about the SS "problem", if spread far and wide would embarrass those who portend its doom.

There is no SS problem. There is a great economic and unemployment depression that has paralyzed the growth required to keep up with the increasing number of new workers and with the dismal number of workers laid off in the last two to eight years.

And thanks......for the buddy list.

[bobburgster]

25. You're welcome....

and I'll be doing my research on SS.

[Name removed]

62. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[w8liftinglady]

11. thank you for all your hard work .bookmarked

[bullwinkle428]

13. K&R. Apparently, a few here don't ever plan on aging!

[defendandprotect]

55. Social Security is about waaay more than old age pension....how many kids were

supported by Social Security after their Dad's died ...

how many Americans with disabilities -- ??

The right wing are filthy bunch -- vicious and cruel -- I imagine even to their own kids.

[bullwinkle428]

78. Oh, I couldn't possibly agree more! I just had to throw out a quick

one-liner after seeing at least one reply that seemed to make absolutely no sense at all!

[defendandprotect]

80. I know ....good job ....

I was just throwing another log on the fire -- !!


:evilgrin:

[sabrina 1]

14. Thank you. The goal here and globally, is to tear down

the social programs and put those public funds in the hands of the same corrupt corps, (whatever they haven't borrowed already, and don't want to pay back) that crashed the world's economy.

They are lying, including Democrats, when they claim that they have to fix SS in order to help bring down the deficit.

That is an outrageous lie that the media is spreading also.

Knowledge is power and if everyone spreads facts to counter the lies, there is a better chance that they will not dare to do it.

However, Republicans know they will have a more difficult time, as the 'left' will spring into attack mode if they do it. My bet is they will do it during the Lame Duck session by voting on the Recommendations of the Deficit Committee which will be presented as a 'package', with raising the retirement age buried in it. Then they will say they have to vote on the full package and there wasn't much they could do about it because otherwise the Repubs would not vote for all the other great things Grover Norquist, Alan Simpson et al have recommended.

I think there needs to be a huge movement to stop this from happening. Those funds belong to the American people and they are lying, all of them, right now in order to increase that fund which they will dip into for more wars and bailouts or to take care of whatever other trouble they get into.

[suston96]

18. You are welcome....the disinformation is staggering.

We need constant and retaliatory strikes against the lies promulgated by those who want to tear down a program which has worked so well.

Too well, I would say.

Again thanks, and a great post.

[Recursion]

34. These funds belong to the American people

They're also going to be paid by the American people, which is where the rush to cut retirees free is coming from.

I wish SSA had been able to invest the trust fund in something other than treasury bonds, though the problems with that are legion too.

[Mimosa]

60. Sabrina, I don't know what DU would do without you.

PLEASE don't ever leave.

You, too, Suston. Thank you for the topic. *hugs*

[defendandprotect]

69. Great post ---

One way or another, the GOP has been getting too much help from a silent and impotent

Democratic Party on this -- and especially from the DLC/"New Dem" wing!!!


PS:

Was just listening to part of Thom Hartmann today and he was saying that any

established program can be subjected to "reconciliation" -- i.e., Obama could

have perhaps extended Medicare to all by that means?

I recall that Clinton was trying to extend it to all 57 and over --

[defendandprotect]

72. Americans should understand SS is not intended to be part of General Budget .....

it is included to cover up the huge and horrific MIC budget --

Social Security is self-sustaining based on FICA payments by employees and

employers -- and based on safe and secure investments which has delivered interest

equal to or better than Wall Street!!

Again -- for anyone who may not know -- Social Security has nothing to do with the

General Budget --

It was intended to be a pay-as-you-you system -- never intended to run surplusses.

Those surplusses were engineered by right wing and Alan Greenspan to raise SLUSH FUNDS

for wars, tax cuts for rich and other right wing mischief making.

[Recursion]

141. Right, but that model assumed a constant birth rate, and wages tracking the GDP

Neither of which we've had. As a result, it is going to be part of the general budget for a couple of decades to come.

[sabrina 1]

200. Exactly, thank you.

And they want to keep the surpluses to pay for more wars etc. But the most important thing people must know is that, as you said, SS has nothing to do with the deficit, and cutting benefits or raising the retirement age will not affect the deficit at all. It will merely encourage them to borrow more, to start another war somewhere or to continue their corrupt practices on Wall St. knowing there is money there to bail them out again.

To really help reduce the deficit they should increase SS benefits which would have the same effect as a stimulus program except that they would not have to go into debt to do so. The money is there, it belong to the people, and it is the people who should be getting it, NOT crooked banksters and war profiteers.

The question is, are Democrats going to let them get away with this? Or in the Lame Duck Congress are they are finally going to use their majority to put a stop to them, raising the issue so that Republicans have to come out and support messing with SS which will set them up for failure in 2012. Or, are Democrats simply going to go along, repeating the lie that because of the deficit 'we have to compromise on entitlement programs'. It is evil to do this to people who do not deserve it, who earned those benefits, and who did not contribute in any way to enormous debt this government ran up. MAKE THEM PAY for what they have done.

[defendandprotect]

264. Thank you, Sabrina, as always ... and sadly I think the answer to your question ...

re Democrats is probably "yes."

Unfortunately, too many of them are sponsored by the interests involved in pushing

for this --

Will Pelosi begin to run for president -- start opposing this -- will we have an

actual split in the Democratic party in the truly physical sense? I doubt it!

I've been hoping that liberal Democrats would walk away WITH the party ... but as

Nader has been telling us for ages they are COMPLICIT in all of this.

I'm here because I can't really go anywhere alone --

But if liberal Democrats begin to march on this corporate/Democratic Party I'll be

with them --

If a liberal/progressive bloc gets together with any other Plan B to stop this corporate

capitalistic insanity I'll be with them -- !!

And thank you for doing so much to help every one here understand what's going on--!!

You posts should all be separate OP's --

:)

[sabrina 1]

279. I will be with them too, Defendandprotect

I think far more than the party would like to believe, would be with them also.

This is made clear when people are asked to focus only on issues, not on parties or politics. In every poll when the issue is about social programs or social justice, the majority reveal themselves to be way to the left of this government, including the Democratic Party.

Maybe it has to get a little bit worse before people rise up and take control of their government. It won't be easy, but starting now I think we ought to be focusing on Congress. Two years of teabaggers should prepare the country for some real representatives of the country. And we can support the progressive organizations already there, there are several of them, in funding and working for real progressive candidates to primary those who have betrayed the people who elected them.

On the good side, we don't have to waste time and money on half the Blue Dogs, we can start with some good candidates directly challenging Republicans and perhaps win some of those seats with some real Democrats in two years. It can be done, if we get to those who don't vote, win back the Independents and energize the progressives in those districts.

Maybe Dean would help?

Anyhow, you are too kind. I very much appreciate your posts also, and am very glad you are here. :-)

[defendandprotect]

281. Agree ...

and agree on liberal majority never acknowledged --

but for the nation, if this wasn't true, there'd be no need for right wing total control
over so much -- corporate-press, publishing, government - they've had to buy everything!
And any bit of truth is still huge danger to them.

Was reading Howard Dean's interview -- GOP succeeded with 50 state strategy --!

Hope Dean stays active and sticks with us -- !

Democratic Party no longer has any true connection to voters in neighborhoods -- explaining
what's going on - programs, etal. That's been purposefully destroyed. Dean was bringing
that back. Nothing like talking to voters -- even those on the other side!

:)

[Name removed]

16. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Hannah Bell]

28. k

[felix_numinous]

30. K & R

Thank you for keeping up with this, there is way too much disinformation out there, it's good to bone up on the facts.

[Bluenorthwest]

35. Strong Rec for THE most important thread of the day!

Read and learn about what is thus far the greatest accomplishments of the Democratic Party, Social Security and Medicare.

[Name removed]

37. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[laughingliberal]

40. No worries. I'm sure they'll hold some bright, shiny thing out to get younger voters on board...

for screwing older voters. Then they'll steal the bright shiny thing in about 20 years.

These people don't care of we starve and they don't care if you do, either.

Funny. Your previous posts were denying they were going to be gutting SS. It now appears new talking points in favor of the gutting are being trotted out.

[Name removed]

84. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Winston Wolf]

48. +1

Your post sums up my feelings as succinctly as I can imagine possible.

[cornermouse]

74. If it wasn't for the older generation, you wouldn't have existed long

enough to have a future. You might want to think about that for a while. Unlike animals, our babies don't hit the ground walking and/or running.

[Name removed]

75. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[wickerwoman]

104. Social security is about the security of the younger generations too...

I can't afford to support my chronically ill parents in my late 20s, early 30s when I am just getting out of college debt and trying to afford a home and start seriously saving for my own retirement. My dad's meds alone cost thousands per month. If he didn't get SS and VA benefits, our whole family would be bankrupt.

Social security is pretty much the only thing that allows most of lower to middle class America to afford to have children, buy homes and have any kind of savings at all.

[tomp]

125. ah yes, obama great, boomers suck. soooooo radical!!!

as if thinking about elders and youngers were mutually exclusive.

obama is fucking both of us, and you're on the bandwagon.

[Brickbat]

146. How edgy of you.

Way to take a stand against the people who need help the most. :rofl:

[Greyhound]

38. K&R. This is all about one thing and one thing only, Wall Street wants that $2T. n/t

[laughingliberal]

42. Yep. And I'm betting they get it. nt

[defendandprotect]

57. Right ... setting up for the next CRASH .... how many CRASHES just in this ten year period????

And how many CRASHES back even before 1929 --!!

[laughingliberal]

41. K & R nt

[TexasObserver]

43. recommend

[groundloop]

45. K&R - I'm edging closer to "retirement" age and this is important to me

One thing I haven't seen mentioned yet (unless I just missed it) is that if the powers that be in government think there's a social security "problem" then why don't they get rid of the ceiling on contributions? If you think about it those who make more than the cap amount ($106,000 if I remember correctly) essentially pay a smaller and smaller percentage of their total income into the social security system. If you're lucky enough to make that kind of money I don't see why you should should complain about paying the same percentage into the system as everyone else. (Oh, and quit loaning our trust fund money to pay for wars)

[Umbral]

46. "...from the spineless elsewhere..." and elsewhere would be...

Here

[Winston Wolf]

50. Kicked...

...recommended, and bookmarked.

[freedom fighter jh]

51. Social security tax is regressive.

You pay at a flat rate -- 7.5% if you have an employer, 15% if you are self-employed -- up to a cap, and then you pay no more. So people who earn less pay a higher proportion of their income. The justification for that is that they get more benefits. But if soc sec benefits get cut drastically, then soc sec tax becomes just one more federal tax. All those payments you've been making all these decades go into the the general budget and a lot of that goes to "defense" and people who make little pay a higher percent of their income than do those who make much.

[defendandprotect]

58. The right wing purposefully pushed the burden of FICA payments onto poor and middle class....

the excuse was "baby boomers" -- that happened sometime in Reagan years, I think?

Or a bit earlier?

Social Security is intended to be a pay as you go system -- with FICA payments increased

when necessary -- this was a ruse to cause Social Security to run a HUGE SURPLUS -- which

it also was never intended to do -- AS A SLUSH FUND FOR THE RIGHT WING AND WARS --

AND TAX CUTS FOR THE RICH!!

The cap on earnings should be much, much higher --

[Mimosa]

61. Hell, yes, they did.

And i usually don't cuss.

[Recursion]

171. Bingo

Here was the pitch:

"Hey, workers, how about you pay more payroll taxes now, and then when you retire we'll have the rich people pay more income taxes to reimburse you for the payroll taxes you paid in?"

Sigh.

[Poboy]

59. rec

[madrchsod]

64. you are correct on the future funding of medicare and social security

unemployed people do not pay into the system. long term unemployed will be losing the amount they can draw when they retire....what will happen 40yrs from now when my daughter retires?

i had to retire at 62 and i would have rather worked to 65. it was`t in the cards.

[defendandprotect]

217. Imagine there is a huge boom awaiting our economy should we rid ourselves

of right wing control over our markets and reinstate regulations/rules

on capitalism -- incuding Glass-Steagall -- and most especially on the banks!

This is a repression of the economy by the right wing after profit taking --

and its intended to create more slave labor -- not only stagnating salaries but

severely reducing them.

This isn't only an attack on Social Security and Medicare -- it's an overall

half century attack on our people's government and democracy!

Destroying the nation's safety nets is essential to the progress of right wing agenda --

just as destroying unemployment insurance, minimum wage and any concept of universal

health care is essential to them.

[Catherina]

65. Rec'd. Great post n/t

[senseandsensibility]

66. k and r

n/t

[earth mom]

68. Looks like the unreccers couldn't destroy this thread even though they wanted to!

:evilgrin:

[eridani]

71. Resources to defend Social Security and Medicare--please move on this!

We have less than a month left.

National organizations

Hands Off Our Medicare! http://www.handsoffourmedicare.org/handsoff
Social Security Works http://socialsecurity-works.org /
Strengthen Social Security http://strengthensocialsecurity.org /

Washington State organizations

Social Security Works-WA http://ssworkswa.org /
Health Care for All-WA www.healthcareforallwa.org
Toll Free: 1 [phone] (I'm personally funding this toll-free number)
Don’t Cut Our Medicare- http://dontcutourmedicare.org /
United for Single Payer www.unitedforsinglepayer.org

Online connections—contact frequently!

Tell the National Commission on Fiscal Responsibility and Reform that they should not cut Social Security or Medicare [e-mail] .

Democratic National Committee issues page
http://my.democrats.org/page/s/contactissues

White House contact- http://www.whitehouse.gov/contact / --202-456-1111

Speaker Nancy Pelosi
[phone]
http://www.speaker.gov/contact/comment_email

Majority Leader Harry Reid
[phone]
http://reid.senate.gov/contact /

Talk show hosts

Randi Rhodes (AM 1090 6-9pm)
[e-mail]
1-866-87-RANDI (actual live broadcast is 12-3pm Pacific time)

Thom Hartmann
c/o KPOJ Radio
4949 SW Macadam Ave
Portland, OR 97239.
[e-mail]

COMMENT LINE
Call the Thom Hartmann Comment and Rant Line at 202 536-5306 to leave a recorded message – agree, disagree, sound off – it’s all welcome. Keep it shorter than 30 seconds, and know that it may be used on the air.
Toll-free US number to call into the show: 1-866-987-THOM (8466)

The Ed Schultz Show
417 38th St SW Suite F
Fargo, ND 58103-2312
[e-mail]
[e-mail]
[e-mail] —during the show

Stephanie Miller (AM 1090 6-9am)
[e-mail]
1-800-STEPH12

Rachel Maddow
[e-mail]

Norman Goldman (AM 1090 3-6pm)
1-888-321-6001
Send an e-mail to Norman during the show:
[e-mail]

The Norman Goldman Show
11054 Ventura Blvd
Box 370
Studio City, CA 91604-3546

Mike Malloy (AM 1090 9pm-12am)
[e-mail]
1-877-962-5569

Amy Goodman
1-212-431-9090
http://www.democracynow.org/get_involved/contact

Democracy Now!
207 W 25th St, Floor 11
New York, NY 10001

[Hannah Bell]

108. Eri, what is that toll-free line you are financing?

And could you please repost this as an OP? I kicked the one you posted before, but I've lost track of it. It needs to be up every week until the vote.

thanks for getting this list together -- very helpful.

[eridani]

117. I've posted it a couple of times

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/eridani/467
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/eridani/468
The toll free number is mainly a way for people in WA State to find out about current Don't Cut Our Medicare meetings.

[Hannah Bell]

124. thanks.

[Poboy]

167. kick

[jtuck004]

73. K&R n/t

[ishaneferguson]

76. Tea party "plan"

to destroy the middle class and return to the "Gilded Age" described by Upton Sinclair and John Steinbeck and Charles Dickens --- a society without a middle class, just the elites and the serfs.

[sarcasmo]

77. The right will have it destroyed in 2012 and those of us under 50 will never see a dime.

[lib2DaBone]

79. We are in dangerous territory.. a lame duck session and Social Security is on the chopping block...

No need to go into President Obama's Deficit Reduction commission.. everyone knows who is lurking there.

The important thing.. is to watch closely between now and the first of the the year... anything CAN and WILL happen when no one is looking.

[katandmoon]

82. K&R

[BrklynLiberal]

86. Marking for later reference.

[foxfeet]

90. K&R nt

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

91. O'Donnell's diatribe re: Social Security was brilliant this evening! n/t

[rhett o rick]

94. We are in a class war. until we figure out how to get a decent media and a representative Congress

we are fucked, with no dinner.

[ProudDad]

96. Starve the beast

Buy used, Buy local or don't buy at all...

We can put most of them out of business if we withhold our dollars...

Relocalize...

[rhett o rick]

143. I wish it were that simple. But I agree that's a tactic. nm

[ProudDad]

196. Given sufficient critical mass

I'd estimate 15 to 20% of the population seriously withholding their money from as many of the corporate houses of death as possible...

Would do the trick...

Corporations must continue to grow or die -- that's why it's called Vampire Capitalism -- If they can't get their fuel, they'll expire...

[defendandprotect]

223. If you can, try to stop using ATM/debit cards .... we all go out every day earning money

for banks and in the end it increases our costs of goods for all of us!

And, enriches the banks!

Same with credit cards if anyone can do it!

I've been fairly successful at limiting the ATM card -- but not as successful

as I'd like to be. :)

[rhett o rick]

230. I dont use ATM cards but use credit cards but so far, dont pay fees. nm

[defendandprotect]

237. Same here .... so far --

Was interesting how upset the gas station owners got with the credit

card companies during the last surge during W in gas prices -- cause

they pay interest on the totals which were rising!

On the one hand, the credit cards are a convenience IF YOU DON'T PAY INTEREST --

but it adds to everyone's expense for everything.

I've been especially upset to hear that they war businesses against offering

cheaper prices for cash - though the gas stations do that.

Evidently, they send people around to small businesses to check on that --

My Visa card is something like 3.5% interest on total for business --

think they also pay membership? Am. Express is 7.5% on total for business!!

Those are huge amounts we are passing on to banks for doing nothing --

and eventually reflected in our future costs for goods.

[ProudDad]

254. Very good point...

Go cash...

[defendandprotect]

222. Many ways to conduct this revolution ... takes very little to concert our efforts ....

individuals begin to figure it out --

let's stop enriching corporations --

We need to NATIONALIZE oil industry one of our wealthiest and strongest opposing

powers against democracy and freedom --

Keep pushing for alternative energy --

If we are not fighting to stop capitalism's EXPLOITATION of the planet and fighting

to save the planet, what will we fight for?

If we fail to do that, it is already too late to fight for our ourselves!

Many ways to demonstrate our feelings -- "lights out" --

taking cars "off the road" for 15 minutes or so at a given time.

NOT buying gasoline on a given day -- not using credit cards on a given day.

Thousands of ways to do this!

STOP buying clothing made in China and other nations where elites have gone to

"harvest slave labor"!!

Work to bring jobs back to America --

Push Obama to overturn the trade agreements which are continuing to close plants

and factories and businesses here in America -- 50,000 manufacturing plants closed

down in last 10 years!!

Keep fighting for MEDICARE FOR ALL -- Obama may actually be able to do it thru

reconciliation!! Open Medicare to everyone ... beginning with 57 years of age and older.

Then move down to 45 -- Put children under 8 in immediately.

Anyone with more ideas -- please throw them in!!

:)

[GrannyK]

97. Thanks for the thread, recd. and bookmarked for later ref. N/T

[midnight]

100. K&R

[DemocraticPilgrim]

102. Exactly they can't take it if the people put up a complete blockage. The people can filitbuster too.

The right voted for poor and minorities to suffer, but even they understand social security is a crown jewel of salvation in their twilight years.

[defendandprotect]

224. Don't wait for Obama or Democrats to call us out ....they're not going to ....

they didn't do it as a response to taking "single payer" off the table and

MEDICARE FOR ALL -- because it's not what Obama was working for.

And they haven't done it in response to the fake T-baggers financed by Koch Bros

oil industry and run out of a PR firm --

Basically, the GOP is the party of "NO" and the Dems are the party of "NO RESPONSE" -- !!!

Seniors, basically, are also unorganized -- only thru AARP which is an insurance company!!!

Young adults have to understand their stake in all of this -- and it isn't only for their

own futures -- I'm sure they don't want to have to be worrying about supporting their parents!!

[tomm2thumbs]

113. K&R 200 and rising

[stuart68]

120. unemployment, unfortunatley, is not the issue

it is a math problem. sorry, but when more people benefit fo rmore years fom a program than enter each year, there is no way to keep it solvent. All of the it is solvent until 2030 talk is just kicking the can down the road. Something has to be done mathematically, ie, more money in and less beneficiaries, or it will just not work.

...hate to be the bearer of bad news, but it is what it is.

[cornermouse]

126. Cheer up then.

My dad only got to enjoy one year of retirement before he died.

[stuart68]

182. My father in law got less....

Sorry for your loss.

[fasttense]

133. The Baby Boomers have been paying double social security taxes since 1983

to cover not only their own Social Security but to cover their parent's Social Security too.

That Trust fund established by Raygun is for the Baby Boomer's Social Security. It is suppose to go away after the Baby Boomers die and the current generation are suppose to get a decrease in their Social Security taxes.

Now all of a sudden that $3 trillion in the trust fund is somehow hurting the country? What are they going to do with all that money in the trust fund if the "work until you drop" is implemented or the benefits are cut so small we are all eating cat food? Where will that $3 Trillion go? Think about it.

[Recursion]

163. That sound is Republicans saying "Suckers!!!"

Now all of a sudden that $3 trillion in the trust fund is somehow hurting the country?

It's a large chunk of the national debt. I don't particularly think that's hurting the country but a lot of people do.

What are they going to do with all that money in the trust fund if the "work until you drop" is implemented or the benefits are cut so small we are all eating cat food?

Nothing. Those bonds won't have to be redeemed, so nobody will have to get a tax increase. They'll probably even find a way to stop paying interest on them.

Where will that $3 Trillion go?

It already "went". It became defense spending and tax cuts to the wealthy. Now payment is due, so the solvency of our retirement system depends on getting our money back from rich people. Good luck with that.

[defendandprotect]

227. Correct and that was a scam to raise a SLUSH FUND for war, tax cuts for rich ....

Social Security is intended to be a pay-as-you-go system, raising FICA as needed.

The wealthy in this scam pushed the burden of FICA onto the shoulders of the poor

and middle class.

The Social Security Fund has been running a huge surplus every year for decades now!!

$250 million a year last I heard --

[Recursion]

174. The simple but politically impossible (right now) solution is to levy from unearned income

The problem disappears immediately. We don't even have to touch the Fund.

[defendandprotect]

225. Nonsense.... Social Security is soluable into 2038 and longer ....

If all the money from the Treasury notes was returned right now, Social Security would

be infinitely solvent!!

We need government investing in creating jobs -- and overturning the trade agreemetns --

bringing jobs back to America rather than shipping them out.

Social Security costs government nothing -- it is paid for by employees and employers --

with 3% administrative costs paid to government.

What's killing us is the MIC and intelligence budgets --

Drug War costing tens of billions every year and corrupting government --

That's where the bad news actually is --

not in the right wing propaganda you're repeating!

[stuart68]

266. Sorry, it's just math

You can't get out more than you put in. You may not like the truth, or agree, but that does not warrant name calling...

[pattmarty]

129. This is serious. I believe it is Dec 1st that the commission makes.............

.........their recommendations and (this is the fucking of the people story) in a lame duck Congress their recommendations will be voted on IN AN UP OR DOWN VOTE WITH NO, NONE AMENDMENTS. Now when was the last time anyone here can remember that happening to ANY law much less something as important as SS? What this really is, is the "middle of the night" raping of the citizens of the US by their "elected" representatives. This is serious shit, and what do some here do, fucking argue like five year olds about the rec/unrec bullshit. This is one reason the left is so fucking disorganized and doesn't do a goddamn thing but whine & cry like children. DO FUCKING SOMETHING THIS TIME!!!!

[TheKentuckian]

183. Much of the disarray on the "left" is because Reaganittes have been infecting it.

The conservatives and far worse, the corporate taint licking "centrists" are a cancer that spreads the insanity of the right into the Democratic party, co-opting it into a force for maintaining the status quo.

We now have a radical regressive party and a conservative party waxing regressive as we absorb those not comfortable with the racists, religious Domonists, and assorted weirdos that occupy the now mainstream of the radical regressive party.

The entire energy of the left has been redirected into maintaining the current systems and policies by utilizing a minority of extreme partisans for corporate conservative economics-social agnostics/armorials run the show of getting elected in rurally dominate/low population states and taking advantage of liberalism's natural inclinations toward conflict avoidance, passivity, and inclusiveness.

[defendandprotect]

228. "Cat Food Commission" is the heart of the criminality ... right wingers put in place by Obama ....

remember, it was Clinton who overturned 60 years of Welfare Guarantees --

with a nod from Gore --

And, it is Obama who put these right wingers in place in control of Social Security!!

[truth2power]

132. I would like two questions answered by anyone here who knows...

1. I have read that SS is a transfer program. What does that mean?

2. Social Security funds/payouts, whatever, are not part of the deficit. Therefore all the Repub talk about tinkering with SS to help reduce the deficit is just phony baloney.

I have a feeling that 1&2 are actually one and the same question.

Anyone?

[ProudDad]

199. SS is a social contract

The current workers pay into the system...

So retired workers and those unable to work won't starve in the streets if they've been unlucky in the capitalist lottery laughingly known as an "economy"...

Then when those workers get old enough, they are to be taken care of by the next generations...

Thus the generational social contract...Community cooperation and support...

But it is true that starting with Carter, then that execrable waste of skin ronny ray-gun, they DID change the formula and applied SS receipts in such a way as to reduce the reported USAmerican budget deficit...cooked the books as it were. They're still doing it...

Just like the lie that they call the "unemployment rate". If USAmerica figured unemployment as they do in Europe (or as they did in the 1930s) our current rate would be approaching Great Depression levels...

One of the two major difficulties with SS is that in order to grab more short-term profit, and, thankfully, to the lower birth rate among USAmericans (a good thing), the pool of workers who are contributing has shrunk while lower death rates mean more collect. Though, this was pretty well taken care of in the early 80s with an adjustment to rates and the ceiling that will take care of the boomers.

Another major problem with the system is that it's regressive. Those with high incomes contribute less than those with lower incomes and the rich get off nearly scot-free...

All SS needs for long term solvency is for Congress to raise the cap (WAY UP THERE!) and lower the percentage being taken out of worker's paychecks...voila! It becomes less regressive and helps the economy in one swell-foop.


As for the REAL growing economic problem, "Health Care", Enhanced and Improved Medicare for ALL and abolition of profit from the financing of Health Care in USAmerica. As long as the idiots keep trying to prop up the most unsuccessful, most regressive, least effective "Sick Care" system in the industrial world, the economy will suffer and People will suffer...

The "health insurance and Big PhRMA stimulus act of 2010" ain't gonna do shit about costs and almost nothing about quality of care though... It's the profit, stupid!

[truth2power]

253. Excellent post! How come you and others (ordinary citizens)

can figure it out?

Oh wait...All our Congresscritters are corporate shills looking out for #1.

We're doomed!

[defendandprotect]

233. Social Security does NOT add to the debt ...it's paid for by employees and employers ....

and simply ADMINISTERED by the government paid for with .03% administrative costs.

It in NO WAY adds to the debt --

It is not supposed to be in the General Budget but it's there to hide the monstrous

MIC budget -- costs of our illegal and immoral wars -- privatization of military --

weapons production -- warmongering.

It's a pay-as-you-go-system NOT intended to run a surplus but the scam of "baby boomers"

was used to raise a SURPLUS -- now more than $250 million every year -- which has acted

as a SLUDGE FUND for the right wing -- used for tax cuts for rich, wars, etal.


When right wing propagandizes about "transfer" program think that's simply more of their

"entitlement" BS -- i.e., "Ponzi Scheme."

The real "Ponzi Schemes" are going on in right wing criminality -- S&L thefts and

embezzlements -- and our market "crashes." All of this is due to the criminal overturning

of NEW DEAL regulations/rules on predatory capitalism. Unregulated capitalism is merely

organized crime.


:)

[truth2power]

252. Thank you for the response. I think you're post, in addition to

what I found from some further searching (I didn't see this article first time around) lays it out nicely.

Here's a part of a draft article: http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/Social_Security_in_the_USA

<snip>

"...Liberal and progressive economists working in the New Deal tradition have characterized Social Security as an inter-generational transfer program. Each current generation of workers and their employers pay into the appropriate fund from which payments are then made to the current generation of eligible retirees (who previously paid into the fund to support the retirees of their working years). It is this inter-generational transfer aspect from which the title Social Security is derived."

<snip>

"This inter-generational transfer notion has been very significant historically to supporters of the program, who point to the fact that it has worked for more than 70 years, and can continue to work indefinitely as long as periodic actuarial adjustments are made. This aspect of the program has also been frequently ignored, misrepresented, discounted and even denied by critics of Social Security in contemporary policy debates. Many critics of Social Security completely deny the currency of the inter-generational transfer idea, preferring instead to characterize it as a vast national Ponzi scheme, or an inadequate pension program that suffers by comparison with private pensions. "

So, as you said, this is a pay as you go system, where the current generation of workers pays into SS and that money is transferred to the current generation of retirees. It doesn't affect the deficit.

Soooo.....why aren't the Dems using every venue they can to get this message out?

[defendandprotect]

262. ... because Democrats are COMPLICIT in this .... they're sponsored by people who benefit ....

Same with the health care issue -- UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE --

vs Obama making back room deals with Big Pharma -- promising "no negotiation" on

drug prices --

and with private health care industry promising NO SINGLE PAYER ON THE TABLE!!



Coming back to "transfer" -- there is an honorable use of the word and the sliming of

it by the right wing .... much as they've tried to slime the word "liberal" --

Right wing can only rise on political violence, stolen elections and lies --

Right wing propaganda -- which short-circuits thinking and raises emotions -- is a

primary tool.

In fact, in Nixon's White House they were studying Nazi propaganda films!




:)

Thank you for the added info!

[Recursion]

280. It doesn't "add to" the debt; it *is* 1/7th of the debt

It's a pay-as-you-go-system NOT intended to run a surplus but the scam of "baby boomers" was used to raise a SURPLUS

OK, but how much worse shape would it be in without those bonds?

The simple fact is paying for Social Security will require new deficit, new taxes, or inflation of the currency. Pick one.

[blindpig]

136. Millions in the streets...

is the only thing that can stop this. It is apparent that the political class is dead set on this, the only way to stop this is show them our power, and not a one shot deal either.

[pattmarty]

138. I think you're right. I'm in. I took my SS at 62 (I'm 64 now) both of...............

.............my folks never collected a goddamn dime. My dad died at 60 and my mom at 64. What is going to happen is a sneaky vote on strictly the recommendations of the "catfood' commission WITH NO AMENDMENTS AND AN UP OR DOWN VOTE in a lame duck Congress. No need to spell it out any plainer than that, it is a recipe for a huge "fuck all the citizens" fiasco. Even Reagan didn't pull this shit when he did his "reform". I will support ANYBODY that vows to block this, Republican, Democrat or a fucking duck. This is sneaky, middle of the night type of bullshit.

[defendandprotect]

263. The French Kiss .... it's insane that liberals have not been demonstrating ....

for Universal Health Care for one --

did you see one liberal organization calling out Democrats --

not Obama -- not Democrats --

not even the women's organizations which should be overwhelmingly interested

in health care issues and Social Security and Medicare!!

Where the hell is everyone -- where have they been since 1960's .... ????

Who does this quite and silence benefit except the right wing?

[raccoon]

145. K&R. We CAN fight them on this. Remember Shrub wanted to privatize SS, and people were so P.O.

that he and his minions backed off?

[defendandprotect]

234. Right wing -- perhaps with Obama's help now -- will be presenting shiny new propaganda re SS....

you can be on it --

Important thing for public to understand is that Social Security is paid for

by employees and employers and has NOTHING to do with the debt --

MIC and privatizing military -- wars -- Blackwater -- empire -- these all add to the DEBT!!

We can, however, immediately save 28% on MIC by MERGING the services -- something that

every other nation has done.



:)

[raccoon]

242. "MERGING the services? Do you mean like, merging the army, navy, air force? nt

[defendandprotect]

261. Yes ... we're pretty much only nation that hasn't done it .... 28% savings on MIC!!!

[LittleGirl]

149. I'm only 50 ish but I've received SS before.

It kept my family off the streets and off welfare...oh wait.

You see, my father died when I was 15. My Mother worked in a factory and had three teens at home to finish raising. When my father died, we got survivor benefits. And trust me, had we not received those funds, my life would have been much different. We would have starved, lost our home or had to move into relative's homes in another state. It helped to pay a portion of my living expenses while I went to college and most of all, kept our dignity.

I will fight for SS to remain in the fabric of this society until the day I die. It's the least I can do for my fellow man, woman and children of deceased citizens.

[TicketyBoo]

181. I was born late in my father's life

and my drawing on his retirement Social Security helped pay my way to college, too.

Are you aware that they have now done away with that? You turn 18, and if you've graduated from high school, no more retirement, disability, or survivor's Social Security benefits for you. If you haven't made it through high school, you can draw until you're 19, but it ends then, even if you are still in high school.

Sad, but true.

As a side note, I'm beginning to feel like a masochist reading DU. It's kinda nasty here, and it makes me feel worse instead of better to come here.

[defendandprotect]

235. Didn't know they had changed that .....

Understand that lies and right wing propaganda is always depressing --

but it's important to fight back with the truth --

if you look at the thread, many of us are doing that!


:)

[raccoon]

243. Similar story here. Me and my sibs received SS, as our father died when we were kids,

and it paid until my youngest sib finished college (early 1970's).

I knew TPTB had done away with that, but I don't know when it happened.

[countrydad58]

272. Yes.

What you say is absolutely correct. In fact they only pay to 16 if a kid drops out from school.

[valerief]

162. Republicans running the show have no regard for people except as a reflection

of themselves. They must have a lot of self-contempt.

Democrats running the show have empathy, a trait totally foreign to the sociopathic Republican. And they don't like anything foreign.

[Uncle Joe]

165. Kicked and recommended.

Thanks for the thread, suston.

[raouldukelives]

168. Rec. nt

[suston96]

180. Thanks everyone, even the unrec-ers.....

Clearly everyone here knows there is a problem whether we define the problem the same way or not.

Social Security's and Medicare's only problem are - the economy and the lost jobs - jobs which fund these programs.

Cutting Social Security and Medicare to meet budget balancing is cowardly and a fraud on the American people who have relied on the full faith and credit of the United States for centuries since the founding of this republic.

Social Security and Medicare cash payments are NOT part of the government budget. They, unfortunately, use the US Treasury checkbook to negotiate the cash inputs and outputs. What any commission should find and suggest is that those cash transactions be made public so that the people and the world can see and judge the fraud that is being perpetrated and the further attempts at deception by those who would destroy these highly successful programs.

Thank you again. You all know what's being attempted. For yourselves and for your children and their children, FIGHT! Many references here on this thread what to do. You all know the drill.

And one more thing. We don't always need a greatest thread to post our reactions and arguments. Reply to every bit of nonsense you see posted on this board. Go to wherever you feel your words can do any good. This is not the fight of just us old people. It is yours and yours and especially yours - you with the hair just starting to grey.

Thank you all. Let's keep talking......

[defendandprotect]

194. kick

[Poboy]

216. .

[Faryn Balyncd]

238. .

[steve2470]

255. k & r nt

[Marr]

258. Rec'd just for Sid and his pals. :)

[defendandprotect]

282. kickey -- :)

[coffee bean]

265. I'm so glad to be a member of this forum

If not, I would not know this is going on nor how to help.
Poor Opa and Oma!
Thanks again Dem U!

[treestar]

275. This is a DU made hysteria

Not going to happen.