Ya know, every time the L.A. skyline is split by the contrail of an unidentified missile launch...

[Poll_Blind]

...I find myself dubious when NORAD declares that it's "Not a threat", especially when they apparently claim not to know anything about it.

When there are cookies missing from the jar, I look to my children for answers.

When there is an apparent missile launch off the coast of California, I look to NORAD for answers.

In both cases, I expect something more or less credible in response. Is that too much to ask?

Even if the response is "The reason there are no cookies left is because one of our nuclear submarines had an incident which we are still investigating. The cookies were detonated in flight and pose no threat. Other nations, members of the U.N. Security Council and Nabisco were contacted about the incident and relations remain normal."

Or something like that. But who decides that the most convincing answer is essentially "Oh that? Yeah, no idea either. Looks big, doesn't it? Probably not a threat though. I mean, unless the contrail's really a plume of militarized anthrax or something like that. But it's probably not that."

So lacking a real response, I'm doing a little searching to see if amateurs have done a spectrographic analysis of the exhaust jet (which appears to be visible during part of the video) but I haven't come up with anything yet. Conceivably it could just be a much smaller rocket made to look bigger, produce a bigger contrail, or it could be some trick of the light, distance or some other optical illusion or atmospheric phenomena related to a jet contrail.

But it sure as shit doesn't look like one.

Anyone know places to go where people might be analyzing this video? This sort of thing happens so infrequently I always forget where the videoheads hang out.

Thanks!

PB

[Ozymanithrax]

1. Most of them ae tests, and we do not have the clearance to know about those tests. n/t

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

4. Reasonable Citizen.

Rule #14: Always operate within your clearance.

[Ozymanithrax]

6. The first rule of military classification...

You must have a need to know.

Second...

You must have a clearance to see that information.

But contrails caused by tests of military equipment are common here on the west coast.

[Poll_Blind]

7. Yeah but the military says they have no idea what it was from and...

...as one of the newscasters pointed out, they'd never conduct a test with a missile this incredibly close to such a populated area.

:shrug:

PB

[Ozymanithrax]

9. They also do not have a top secret base known generally as

Area 51. They do not officially test new aircraft there.

Just because they say they don't know what it is means they don't know what it is.

[RaleighNCDUer]

15. Aircraft testing there is just a cover story - they really don't need both

Area 51 and Skunkworks for testing new aircraft.

It IS housing for alien artifacts.

[A HERETIC I AM]

34. Just curious, but what do you know about the Skunk Works?

The wording of this sentence;

"Aircraft testing there is just a cover story - they really don't need both Area 51 and Skunkworks for testing new aircraft."

is why I asked.

Do you know where it is?

I mean, without Googling it first.

[RaleighNCDUer]

41. Are you suggesting they are the same place?

That's exactly what they WANT you to think!

Actually, I have no idea - I've always figured it was attached to Nellis, and my understanding is that Area 51 is a hundred+ miles north of Nellis. After learning about Skunk Works I never connected it to Area 51. Of course, I could be wrong - I have been before, once or twice.

[A HERETIC I AM]

49. Not suggesting anything of the sort. They are two entirely different places.

You are correct that Area 51, or Groom Lake is North/NW of Nellis and Las Vegas by about 85 miles or so.

The Skunk Works however is the trademarked name for Lockheed Martin's Advanced Development Programs and their primary facility is in Palmdale, CA. About 3 miles from where I used to live actually, when I first joined DU. Palmdale is in the Antelope Valley, north of the LA Basin. The same valley that Edwards AFB is in, where the Shuttle lands when it can't land in Fla. as well as Mojave, CA where SpaceShip One made its maiden flight.

You can drive right by the Skunkworks facility on public roads. You can't drive by area 51 without getting attention.

The Skunkworks is on the "Plant 42" property which has a long history of military research flights and production along with Edwards AFB and the NASA Dryden Research Center, on the property of Edwards.

A couple of interesting things about the place;

The Space Shuttles were assembled on the Plant 42 facility as well as final assembly of the entire fleet of B-2 bombers. The FAA's LA Center is on the property, the primary air traffic control center for all flights entering or leaving Southern California airspace.

It has two major runways, both over 12,000 feet long. One of them, Runway 4 (40 degrees on the compass) points almost directly at the center of Edwards AFB, about 24 miles across the valley. When Lockheed or the Air Force has an aircraft they want to fly out of the Skunkworks and over to Edwards with as few eyes as possible seeing it, they do it in the middle of the night using runway 4, as there isn't much under the flight path but irrigated farmland. It was rumored that was what they did with the first B-2 Stealth Bomber test aircraft.* The Main hangar building at the Skunkworks is so large that they can drive a C-5 Galaxy inside, close the doors behind it and load anything they want to without it being seen by satellites or anyone else. It was rumored that is what they did with the first F-117 Stealth Fighter. They took that straight to Groom Lake (or so I had been told by long term Palmdale residents).

I wasn't intending to be snarky or anything. I hope you understand that.


*The B-2 was a Northrup product, not a Lockheed one. Northrup did a public "Rollout" ceremony of the B-2 in November of 1988 at their facility at the Plant 42 complex.

[krispos42]

62. I remember an article in Popular Mechanics or Popular Science....

...maybe 10, 15 years ago that claimed that Area 51 had been moved to someplace in Washington state area.

[Poll_Blind]

18. I just don't get how you think that relates to this. You don't go performing tests involving what..

...appears to be ballistic missiles in close proximity to highly-populated areas, secret or no.

Do you really believe it is plausible that this is a known, planned testing of some kind of weaponry of vehicle and that all military branches of the government are just going to pretend that people will not be alarmed by it? I think that's possible in an infinite universe sort of way but with an ant's toenail of probability.

:shrug:

PB

[TexasObserver]

24. It seems very unlikely it was a planned test.

Either it was a missile fired by someone other than the US or it was fired by the US.

If fired by the US, it seems likely it was accidental. Naturally, they would cover that up.

If it was fired by someone other than the US, look to powers with that submarine capability.

[Poll_Blind]

44. Instead of accidental, I'm internally using the phrase "un-intentional".

The chain of checks for any kind of weapons like this puts it well beyond anything I could consider an "accident" if that makes any sense. We had a case a couple of years ago where a guy on the nuclear sub was arrested for cutting the launch wires for one or more of the missiles. Not that that could launch them like this, but I would consider something like this more the result of an act of sabotage than an accident.

Minor quibble, maybe.

PB

[TexasObserver]

45. I agree that "unintentional" is probably more accurate.

As you note, this can't happen with an "oops" as someone accidently hits a button.

Someone likely misunderstood their orders.

[Ozymanithrax]

25. I've seen lots of contrails here in california. I know that

those I have seen are caused by missile tests. The often appear most clearly in the moring or evening. Seeing the contrail in the sky doesn't tell you the position of hte missile when it passed over.

[gateley]

22. Shouldn't/wouldn't it be better to just say "tests"? They don't

need to give details (not that they would) but I think they should present an attitude of "chill, we're on top of this" rather than "huh?" -- don't you?

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

8. As a mere citizen, I could never have a need to know.

:cry:

[Ozymanithrax]

10. You would not likly have a need to know.

Never is a long long time.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

14. Not likely.

:rofl:

[TexasObserver]

21. The term "need to know" is a term of art in the military.

It means you have a "need to know" in order to perform your assigned duties.

Imagine two pilots who both have identical clearances. One is assigned to a mission, while the other isn't. The one assigned to the mission has a need to know, so he is told about it. The one not assigned to the mission has no need to know, so he isn't told about the mission, in spite of holding a clearance of the level required.

[Ozymanithrax]

23. Exactly...

If there is no need to know, the people telling us about those contrails do not know.

[TexasObserver]

28. "Those who talk don't know. Those who know don't talk." - saying among the cleared.

When I was in the military, I worked inside a Top Secret vault. No windows. Very limited access. Top Secret holders only, and then, only those with a need to know.

"What you see and and what you hear, when you leave, leave it here" was a sign that was above the vault door on the way out.

There are many people who know what happened with this missile, but none of them will be talking about it.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

63. "Need to know" means "Need to know?"

Thanks for straightening that out.


must we start at the larval stage?

[TexasObserver]

13. First, you must have the clearance required.

Second, you must have an official "need to know."

"Access and Need to Know" is the terminology.

The security clearance one has must always be considered first, because "need to know" doesn't matter if you're not cleared to have that level of secret.

Sometimes people who only have Secret clearance are used in Top Secret missions. They know only what they have to know for their job, which does not include knowing or understanding the ultimate objective.

[Recursion]

59. There was a door in my old drill center with a sign saying "only authorized personnel allowed"

Below that it said "The list of authorized personnel is on the reverse side of the hatch."

However cleared I was, that room didn't concern me. If I was supposed to go in it, I would have been told.

[no limit]

50. If this was a secret test they wouldn't have lauched it on one of the most populated coasts

in the entire country.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

2. Who's afraid of a mystery missile?

gack

[razorman]

3. Maybe it was the North Koreans attempting to attack us. But, they were probably

using their own missile-guidance system, so God only knows where the damn thing went.

[Poll_Blind]

5. Well, at least if it was a North Korean Sneak Attack™ gone wrong the entire crew of...

...the North Korean submarine would have killed themselves by now and NORAD, in a gruesomely-roundabout way, would be right.

:rofl:

PB

[Recursion]

11. The combination of "we don't know what it is" and "it's not a threat" is pretty weak sauce NT

[RaleighNCDUer]

20. There is a bit of dissonance there -

if they don't know what it is, how do they know it is not a threat? If they can guarantee that it is not a threat, they must know what it is.

[gateley]

26. Even if they didn't know they should reassure us that they do!

I'm not advocating the government lying to us (like they don't every time they open their mouths already:eyes:), nor if it happened to be a threat not to tell us while they're all running for the hills, but until it's identified, they shouldn't leave the door open to alarm people.

[Supersedeas]

43. even if the can't tell us WHO for security reasons, they can at least say WHAT assures them that

there is no cause for alarm.

[Poll_Blind]

55. That would be nice.

Aside from "Well, nothing's blown up yet- am I right?!"

PB

[Poll_Blind]

27. Exactly, LOL! n/t

PB

[nadinbrzezinski]

61. Otherwise known as

a non denial, denial...

[Soral]

12. So its been almost 24 hrs and still nobody know? It was not US then...

I have been chatting with one of my Naval Sub buddies, and he is semi-scared by all this...

But that's alarmingly similar to a ballistic missile launch from a submarine. Possibly a test launch...by who? I dunno.


Apparently, we aren't taking responsibility for it, so that naturally raises a possibility that it could be another sub off our coast who has just test fired a missile.

I'm a submariner and this is my line of work, and if this turns out to be what I just raised, then all of us should be shitting our pants right now.

It is absolutely impossible to "accidently" launch one of these missiles. There is an exhaustive process of authentication that goes .. any weapons release.

[gateley]

30. Welcome to DU, Soral!

:hi:

IF it was ours do you think they'd admit it?

[Soral]

32. No, but there would be a made up story... This is not a UFO, everyone saw it.

It's one thing if there is a "ufo" and then they can make up whatever story they want.

This was a missile... And millions say it, and there is crystal clear video.


......I remember the last time NORAD didn't know what the hell was going on.............

[Poll_Blind]

42. Really, it is a possibility that this was not a missile but something which appeared to be one.

I don't buy that. But it's always a possibility. Viewing the movement of airborne objects is prone to mis-observation. Of course, the contrail seems to identify this as a missile of some sort. But seems is the key word here.

PB

[Poll_Blind]

36. Well, I intentionally glossed over it in my OP but...

...I think it would be absurd to presume that the military did not know exactly where it was launched from, where it landed and didn't have a good idea who launched it. Most of our entire defense structure is predicated around finding out these things. I just read in one of the articles that NORAD prides itself on being able to detect a missile launch within 10 seconds. Which I would guess is about right.

Now, this could be some absolutely harmless thing seen through the filter of an unusual phenomenon of some sort. But, again, it sure does not look like it.

If you walk down that path, then they're either waiting for the President to get back from his trip to talk more about whatever it was or whatever it was is still going on.

You're right, these things don't just happen on their own. Someone didn't accidentally put their coffee mug on the "Launch" button. Again, on the working assumption that what appears to be a large, probably ballistic, missile actually was one.

PB

[RainDog]

16. link to video

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/2010/11/09/2010-11-09_mysterious_missile_caught_on_tape_streaking_across_sky_off_coast_of_california_n.html

scroll down. the first picture is a still image.

[nadinbrzezinski]

17. I am willing to bet the fine folks at skunk works

And the public information officer don't got clearance.

Attitude is everything..it was our own shit. Or we'd be on high alert and nooze would be back to creepy music...

[gateley]

19. Thanks for the link - I had no idea what you were referring to. I loved

"Spilled Coffee" response: What the Pentagon and Navy meant to say was ...."Rats. Caught again."

:rofl:

I would think if it were the government, they'd have a cover story all ready to go. It's reassuring that "experts" think it's probably not a missile, but NORAD should KNOW whatever the fuck it is!

[grantcart]

29. Last night I saw a man made object re enter the atmosphere

`
It was about 9:30 and clearly visible in San Diego.

The reason I say it was man made is because the object had a bright white tail and then exploded into a white flash while most asteroids have a more orange tail and just trail down until they are too small to see.


I assume that it was an old satelite falling into the atmosphere.

[Poll_Blind]

31. Interesting observation, grantcart!

I'm not sure exactly when this thing took off (or appeared to take off) but I thought it was sometime around 5pm. But, again, I don't know. Thanks for passing that on.

PB

[LiberalArkie]

33. I really believe it would be Isreal, China, or some other nation with subs, giving us a warning

[Poll_Blind]

37. Those wouldn't be warnings. That close, those would be acts of war or insanity.n/t

PB

[nadinbrzezinski]

38. You do realize that's an act of war

Now if they want to commit suicide...

The silence is far more telling. No, not one of ours...yet.

Skunk works is in the general zip code area.

[gateley]

46. But wouldn't Skunk Works have a cover story? I'm sure they

have plenty "ready to go". All they'd have to do (at least in my tiny little mind) is to pick up the phone and tell NORAD, it was ours, you don't have a Need To Know, so just reassure the population it's under control, or something like that.

[nadinbrzezinski]

47. Not if the contrall ain't expected

This also happens all the time round these parts, and only reason this made nooz is size, like when another little project broke windows in the early 1990 s. Nobody will admit to it, but the story, like this one, will soon die.

[gateley]

35. Anyone else think this is kind of inane? (From the link)

"Former Deputy Secretary of Defense Robert Ellsworth told the San Diego station that the missile was “not a Tomahawk” but could possibly have been a test firing from a submarine to serve as a demonstration of American military might to Asia."

How could we demo our 'military might' yet claim it's not ours? "SOMEBODY has military might, but not us, better look out, Aisa!" :shrug:



Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/2010/11/09/2010-11-09_mysterious_missile_caught_on_tape_streaking_across_sky_off_coast_of_california_n.html#ixzz14os9UULV

[Poll_Blind]

40. I watched the video interview with him- basically he was trying to give...

...some kind of answer which made sense. From the video interview (and I don't have a link to it but there few videos about it so it should be pretty easy to track down) it appears he's really just trying to come up with some answer that isn't alarming. The thing that I found interesting was that at least in his opinion it appeared to be a missile launch- instead of him going "Oh, see right here? A liquid propelled rocket would have this kind of signature. The contrail is very large but if you look at it, this could be a distortion of the atmosphere. This rocket's probably much smaller than it appears."

That sort of thing.

PB

[JuniperLea]

39. Any news from Vandenberg AFB?

They had a test missile scheduled for last week and it was scrubbed. My first thought is always Vandenberg... they have entertained me with rockets all my life!



http://www.freqofnature.com/photos/mmii1014/index.html

Some that were launched in the 60's and 70's were freakin' beautiful! Scary if you didn't know what they were though.

[nadinbrzezinski]

48. We are like positive

We've seen aurora...the contrails are strange.

[JuniperLea]

54. I have a friend...

A good lefty, who is an amazing rock 'n roll writer... and he loves the whole contrail/chemtrail deal:) He's also big on the 11:11 stuff too... it's a gas to follow.

[Poll_Blind]

51. Per video posted in the videos section, next launch wasn't scheduled until December.

PB

[JuniperLea]

53. That's the new launch date...

Once one happens, or is postponed, it's removed from the list.

I've been tracking this list since it appeared in the LA Times in the 60's.

Vandenberg Postpones Launch for a Third Time
KEYT Producer

Story Created: Nov 2, 2010 at 4:36 AM PST

(Story Updated: Nov 2, 2010 at 9:23 AM PST )

Monday night's scheduled launch of a Delta Two Rocket at the Vandenberg Air Force Base was delayed for the third time.

Mission managers found a problem just prior to the launch.

Similar problems scrubbed the mission on Friday and on Sunday.

The rocket will send a satellite into space that researchers and the military will use to observe earth.

http://www.keyt.com/news/local/Vadenberg-Postpones-Launch-for-a-Third-Time-106512449.html



Vandenberg launches Delta II rocket
Satellite Delta II
Posted On: Nov 09, 2010
A Delta II rocket liftsoff with COSMO-SkyMed Satellite from its Space Launch Complex-2 on North Vandenberg. VANDENBERG AFB (BNS): Vandenberg has successfully launched a United Launch Alliance Delta II rocket carrying the Thales Alenia Space-Italia COSMO-SkyMed Satellite from its Space Launch Complex-2 at North Vandenberg.

The 350th mission has launched the fourth Italian-built Constellation of Small Satellites for Mediterranean Basin Observation (COSMO-SkyMed 4) satellite.

This launch is the fourth and final for COSMO-SkyMed.

http://www.brahmand.com/news/Vandenberg-launches-Delta-II-rocket/5429/3/13.html

It's so much easier to track them now with the InterTubes and all:)

[TexasObserver]

52. It was either a US testing or a foreign power, such as China.

This smells like China.

This is the kind of thing China would do. It's supposed to let the US know they can launch missiles off our coast. Like most of what China does, it only impresses them.

The president takes a trip to India. There's been some US naval activity in the region. China wants to show it is not impotent.

Face. Much of what China does is about saving face.

It's much ado about nothing. They hold large amounts of our debt. They depend on our purchases of their cheaply produced crap. They make their monetary policy to facilitate their exports. And they depend almost entirely upon technology invented and built by other countries. We send them drilling and other technologies. They send us cheap crap that breaks easily.

[Stinky The Clown]

56. I'm greatful they had the good sense to alert Nabisco, that's for sure.

K&R - I agree with your premise.

[bobthedrummer]

57. Failure Shuts Down Squadron of Nuclear Missiles by Marc Ambinder

10-26-10 The Atlantic
http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2010/10/power-failure-shuts-down-squadron-of-nuclear-missiles/65207

Hoo-ray for "full-spectrum dominance" by the earth's only superpower!!!
:nuke:

[felix_numinous]

58. They used to have the decency to have a cover story

back when there was more respect and manners......now we're not important enough for that.

[Recursion]

60. I've always thought reports of alien spacecraft over the US were military planes...

...and they were happy to use the "oh it's another crazy redneck who thinks he saw a flying saucer" schtick to distract attention.

Now maybe the aliens are pretending to be a military launch for the same reason...