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The two party system is a major reason for the decline of American democracy

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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-09-10 05:56 PM
Original message
The two party system is a major reason for the decline of American democracy
Edited on Tue Nov-09-10 06:00 PM by BurtWorm
Hypothesis: The problem with our bipartisan system is that it tends to empower the powerful and, consequently, disempower the powerless.

If there were no parties, politicians would have to stand or fall on their own merits among the electorate. They would not be forced to take loyalty oaths or to promise the unpromisable to rabid partisans. Once in office, they would be less susceptible to being bullied or whipped by the entrenched powerful for being less beholden to a received ideology or to a political machine.

More to the point of my main hypothesis (on which I welcome discussion), the two party system inflates the political power of the already powerful--the wealthy, in particular--the owners and managers who tend to have a less democratic view of government. To put it bluntly, the two party system favors conservatives and Republicans over liberals and Democrats. It has enabled the discredited economic policies of the Bush/Cheney/DeLay/Frist era to come back disguised under a slightly more populist cloak (much as Gingrichism, out of which Bushism arose, pretended to be a more angry and populist politics than the discredited Reagan/Bush-I-ism *it* grew out of).

The teabaggers make it clear that populist wingerism can't help but be co-opted (or indeed manipulated) by the moneyed interests in the Republican party because our system arbitrarily divides the electorate into conservative Republicans and liberal Democrats. Either one or the other gets elected. Almost no one else. You may be elected a populist, but given enough time (less time if you're a Republican) you will do the bidding of the powerful.

(Food for thought: If the Republicans are essentially manipulated by powerful moneyed interests, who's pulling the Democrats' strings? I know right wingers would say Big Labor. Would that that were true! That would be a sign of health in the labor movement, at least! But I don't think it's been true for quite a while.)
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katty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-09-10 05:59 PM
Response to Original message
1. i couldn't agree more-a perpetual game of ping pong
we are in dire need of more choices.
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ashleyforachange Donating Member (91 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-09-10 06:07 PM
Response to Original message
2. There is a reason...
why the First President under the Constitution said no political parties.
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-09-10 06:08 PM
Response to Original message
3. Question: what laws would you change (amendments would you pass) to get more viable parties?
The 2 party system developed before broadcasting political advertising, so you can't just blame it on that (though I think that has helped keep it in place). So what in the American process has made it more of a 2 party system than most democracies?

One thing to remember: the primary system gives the US electorate more control over the candidates than just about any country in the world. It is possible that, even with a system that encourages more viable third, fourth etc. parties, you'd still end up with the same politicians, just in different alliances. And not necessarily any more responsive to the voters.
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-09-10 06:15 PM
Response to Reply #3
8. Proportional representation over time is far likelier to assure that voters get what they want.
As it now stands, the plurality of voters get all of the representation in each given election contest, and all those not with the plurality of voters get none of the representation. 49 percent can be completely shut out of having a voice in the elected bodies. In fact, majorities (in three way contests) are often completely shut out of having a voice.
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-09-10 06:50 PM
Response to Reply #8
18. The large variations in state size make PR tricky to implement in the US
At least, they make it tricky to implement it uniformly. If you could cross state boundaries to form a multi-member seat you could do it; would people go for that? You could have a system like the Scottish parliament - you vote once for the local single-member seat, and then a group of seats are combined to give top-up representatives to parties that, proportionately, deserve more. It means you need 50% or more representatives than just with one-rep-per-seat (Scotland doubles it, but the similar AV+ system proposed, but rejected, for Westminster back in the late 1990s was going to have about 2/3rds MPs from constituencies, and 1/3 from top-ups).

But with a number of very small population states, you have to have some way of combining them with somewhere else to give them proportionality. Or you just say the smallest states have to stay with one-rep-per-seat, while those with 2 or more can have multi-member PR seats.
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-09-10 07:22 PM
Response to Reply #18
23. I'm well aware of what history has saddled us with...
The Senate, too. Why the hell is Wyoming ever going to give up having 100 times the per capita representation of California? (I believe that's literal -- 40 million in CA, 400,000 in WY?) When you think that this system is in part an artifact of the South's struggle to maintain slavery...

When imagining this I think up schemes like creating equal population cross-state regions for House elections, but again, in selling it you're facing local interests and the power of tradition. It would be opposed as though it spelled the end of "America." And that's before all the sophistry that would come down about how PR leads to chaos, etc. (You'll hear about Italy, not Germany, though actually Italy has been very stable as a society and had even greater economic growth than Germany since the war.)

It's mildly disheartening.
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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-09-10 06:19 PM
Response to Reply #3
11. My sense is that with more parties or no parties, you might get slightly more honest
Edited on Tue Nov-09-10 06:23 PM by BurtWorm
candidates. By which I mean candidates who will tell you what they really believe ought to be done as opposed to what the party stands for. This is total speculation of course. Who knows what kinds of corruption would grow out of a no-party system? Some kind, no doubt. But would we have the degraded discourse we have in the US if there weren't just two parties vying for power? I doubt it. The two parties--but let's face it, it's one party in particular that has dragged American discourse into the deep end--make a habit of saying what they don't mean and don't intend to do, although one in particular seems to believe the ridiculous and has no fear of making the ridiculous the rule of law.

So what would have to change to bring this about? It will probably have to start at some state level, as all democratic change seems to. A non-party system will have to be experimented with and shown to be the most effective way to get honesty and reason back into power.
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-09-10 06:35 PM
Response to Reply #11
16. No parties means direct corporate rule.
These elections are already about Candidate X's outfits and Candidate Y's hemorrhoids. The last thing we need is a further personalization of American elections, or more of the illusion that a strong person of integrity will blah blah blah. I don't care about what a great business they built, or their experience at skeeball, or how they go to church all the time. All that matters is how they are going to vote on legislation, which is completely unrelated to who they are inside. If you personalize it even more, all that will matter is who can marshall the most corporate money to buy the best personal image work.

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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-09-10 06:53 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. Very difficult to actually ban parties too, without restricting reps freedom of decision
Parties developed naturally, without explicit legislation, in all democracies as far as I can tell. Hell, the Roman Republic had parties. Any representative has to be able to say they'll work closely with X and Y because their goals are similar.
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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-09-10 08:53 PM
Response to Reply #19
25. Then why just two parties?
I'll have to return for an answer.
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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-09-10 06:55 PM
Response to Reply #16
20. What would that look like I wonder?
;-)

Seriously, clean elections would require public financing for all no exceptions. Easiest way to get corporate "person"'s noses out of
elections. They're so firmly ensconced now because the more corporate of our two parties has enough bodies on the SC to make it so.
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-09-10 07:29 PM
Response to Reply #20
24. Okay, okay...
No parties would mean even more direct corporate control.

Here's how I'd handle part of it:

- A new broadcast channel and several cable channels in all areas by law are required to carry scheduled campaign programs in 30-minute and 60-minute blocks. (See what I just did?) Equal time for everyone on the ballot. On the secondary channel, all comers may air their own campaign-related propaganda.

- The schedule is published and relentlessly promoted on all other channels. The announcements of the political channel schedule are the only campaign-related ads allowed on other channels.

- It's limited to six weeks. Six weeks, damn you.
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Nye Bevan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-09-10 06:09 PM
Response to Original message
4. Somehow this system led to the election as President of an intelligent black man
who would have been enslaved or segregated not so long ago. So I guess it's not *all* bad.
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-09-10 06:16 PM
Response to Reply #4
10. Also Reagan, Bush and Bush for 20 of the last 30 years.
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BzaDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-09-10 06:10 PM
Response to Original message
5. The two party system is not going anywhere. With the electoral college and winner-take-all elections
it would take a Constitutional amendment (at the very least) to chip away at it.
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OHdem10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-09-10 06:11 PM
Response to Original message
6. The DLC, Centrist , Blue Dogs run the Party and they operate
Right of Center. The appease and move farther
right just as the GOP demand.

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TBF Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-09-10 06:15 PM
Response to Original message
7. Nope, you can blame the decline on capitalism.
Labor union membership is under 9% at this point - hardly a bleep. The influencing is coming from the corporations and that is on both sides of the aisle.
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howaboutme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-09-10 06:15 PM
Response to Original message
9. Why I'm becoming a registered Independent
I submit that both Parties make their political strategy not based upon their base, but upon what independents want and what their corporate or Wall Street sponsors have paid for.

If I'm a registered Democrat they expect me to vote party line regardless of what shenanigans they pull. If the Parties think they have 50 % Ds and 50% Rs they will play politics to their own base and play ping pong with the public and then do exactly what their corporate sponsors pay them to do. The government of the USA should be for the people, not corporations. This habit of ruling for the rich is the philosophy that both Parties need to be broken from.

If 50% of the country is "I" and the other 50% is R and D the Parties are going to be posturing to get the "I" vote and that vote is about people not lobbies and corporations. "I" votes can't be taken for granted so my philosophy is to become an "I" and let both Parties go at each other tooth and nail to prove to us that they will govern for the people and not the corporations.

If this philosophy is flawed please let me know.
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TheWraith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-09-10 06:20 PM
Response to Original message
12. And if the rich all agreed to stay out of politics, it would be no problem.
But that's as realistic as there being no political parties. So long as there's two main branches of political philosophy, and we don't have instant runoff voting, then people are going to congregate into two distinct groups.

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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-09-10 06:22 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. But that's not the case in other democracies.
Other democracies don't limit themselves to two arbitrary flavors of difference.
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BzaDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-09-10 06:23 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. That's because other parties have instant run-off voting or proportional representation
and don't have Constitutions that enshrine the two party system (with things like the electoral college, which requires an absolute majority of electoral votes).
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-09-10 06:32 PM
Response to Original message
15. Two parties can keep voters split only if they can divide and conquer voters over divisive,
polarizing issues like abortion, GLBT, religion.

Voters can change government every two years but sadly they remain polarized while corporatist finance bipartisan Senates and Houses that pass laws which move us closer to a complete plutocracy.
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howaboutme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-09-10 07:12 PM
Response to Reply #15
22. While the rich inherit the Earth, ( and the USA )
WE the manipulated average Joe schmucks watch sports (that we the schumcks fund with new stadiums, while owners and players are made into multi millionaires), or American Idol, or Dancing with the Stars, or the Hollywood propaganda that we the schmucks also fund (through special taxpayer paid "help Hollywood make a movie in Pittsburgh", etc) all so that Hollywood can remain extremely rich beyond their actual value to society, and so that we the schmucks can fight and claw amongst our own kind based upon predetermined D or R issues such as DADT, abortion or guns.

It's a gig and as George Carlin once said you all aren't part of it.

Until Americans start to separate the wheat from the chaff and see through the politics that at its core is about screwing the most while enriching the few, and succeeding because most are too involved or naive to begin to understand it, we're fxcked.
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ixion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-09-10 06:36 PM
Response to Original message
17. The two parties are a representation of a single group of people
The well-to-do.

All other voices are shut out of any real debate.
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jobycom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-09-10 07:00 PM
Response to Original message
21. The party system is just what happens, no matter how you try to prevent it.
George Washington hated parties, but they formed anyway. Britain has a Brazilion parties, but they all merge into two anyway after an election. They have an election with several parties earning seats, then all the parties form into two alliances, and the two alliances battle each other. We do the same thing, we just alter it slightly. Our primaries are when all the factions battle it out, and the voters decide the coalitions, and those coalitions run in the general under the names "Democrat" and "Republican."

If you did away with parties, people would still take the opposite views on issues and elections would still center around those views, and the candidates who could appeal to the most voters would still divide ideologically from the candidates who appealed to the second most voters.

As for the system leading to extremism, it does on some levels, and it leads to the opposite in others. In national elections it leads to moderates--whichever candidate can get the most middle voters wins, just by simple math, so our presidents tend to be moderates, or at least they have to pretend to be. On a state level--governors or senators--the candidates still have to be closest to the center for that state, but of course different states have different centers, for a number of reasons (ag versus industry, city versus rural, educated versus not-so-educated, etc). So each state chooses senators in their middle, and the basic ideology of that state is represented.

Where it leads to extremes is in the local elections, especially the House of Representatives, and that is the fault of the party system to some degree. Each state's dominant party draws Congressional districts to maximize its party's strength, and to create safe districts for their party. So, conservative regions are grouped together (under a conservative state), while liberal regions are divided up and each smaller section is combined with a nearby conservative district to eliminate the power of the liberal region. Austin is an example. It used to be one liberal district, but when Tom DeLay redrew the districts (twice) after the 2000 census, he split Austin into four districts, and combined each with a very conservative area--mine, for instance, comprises north Austin and a chunk of Houston, so make sure my liberal neighbors have no voice.

So in that way, the party system, or at least the specific federal system of districting we use, does lead to extremism. Many seats in the House are held by Reps from these extreme districts (of either party), and only about a third of them are really open to change each time.

But I don't believe for a second you can change that by trying to either eliminate parties or trying to force a multi-party system. Either way, it will still come down to a choice between right and left, and the two sides will still divide things up, no matter how they are organized. They might spend more time haggling over leadership issues, since the party structure won't be as clear-cut, but that's about it.

As for money, money is always going to dominate any power structure. Money is power. It doesn't buy power, it is power. It dominated communism (even if the concept of wealth and money were a little different), it dominated feudalism, it dominates capitalism--the only question is really what system the government uses to divide up money. In a democracy, what offsets the power of the wealthy is the masses of the people. The poor can outvote the rich, the rich can twist the perceptions of the poor--it's always a struggle. In most other systems, there is no struggle--the rich just dominate.

The Teabaggers are a populist movement controlled by the moneyed interests, so they aren't populist in effect, only in their intentions. They are a weapon that the moneyed can buy, without realizing they've been bought. The leftists are the real populists, but they don't know what to do with power when they get it, and they can find few allies in power (power and money are the same thing), so they are impotent. Some leftists want to toss capitalism for some form of socialism or communism or some imagined system, but it wouldn't matter--they'd still be the little guys who get trodden on by the wealthy, even if wealth is defined in a different way.

Those in the middle are the most powerful. They aren't always right, and that's not always good, but they are the swing voters who decide between the wealthy and the poor. And they are influenced by advertising and demogagues, but they are also influenced by their own economic situation. If the wealthy are too powerful and are hurting the middle classes economically, the middle shifts to the left. If they are being taxed too heavily for social spending, they shift to the right. Like it or not, that's the basic rule of democracy. People vote their pocketbook. A lot can be done to persuade and sway them either way, but only within a few degrees. The exception to this comes when the middle class is very comfortable, and the wealthy classes aren't too much richer, so they can feels safe spending on social programs without greatly upsetting their own comfort.

It all boils down to the two parties being divisions that will just happen, even if we change the name and the way elections are held. Maybe we should change things, maybe we shouldn't--that's another debate--but things won't change dramatically if we do.
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