"This is going to be a disaster for the President.The gay community is not gonna take this anymore.'

[Bluebear]

Video of Aravosis on MSNBC discussing Dems caving yet again on DADT:

http://www.dailykos.com/tv/w/002769/

[Occulus]

1. Cue whining about Aravosis. n/t

[Skittles]

2. yup

it's one of "their" talking points :thumbsdown:

[Bluebear]

3. You said it. nt

[Skittles]

4. still

rapid pace to The Greatest Page so they're obviously not here yet :rofl:

[nofurylike]

33. yes, he needs people to pre-empt legitimate criticism. nt

[QC]

48. John Aravosis never really loved him!

:cry:

[Name removed]

5. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Tx4obama]

8. What is embarrassing is....

to have DUers constantly misrepresenting what President Obama is doing and saying.

-----

Source: Advocate

A top White House official issued a statement Monday evening saying the administration does not approve of any attempt to remove “don’t ask, don’t tell” repeal from the Defense funding bill to which it is currently attached.

“The White House opposes any effort to strip 'Don't Ask, Don't Tell' from the National Defense Authorization Act,” said Dan Pfeiffer, White House Communications Director.

The Advocate reported Sunday that Sen. Carl Levin, chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee, was exploring the possibility of offering a stripped-down version of the Defense funding bill that scraps the repeal measure, and a spokesperson for Sen. John McCain, the ranking Republican on the committee, confirmed the discussions to The Wall Street Journal.

A spokesperson for Sen. Levin said Monday afternoon that he has been discussing with Sen. McCain the path forward on the National Defense Authorization Act, but she did not confirm whether the two were considering a version of the legislation that dropped the repeal provision.

http://www.advocate.com/News/Daily_News/2010/11/08/White_House_Opposes_DADT_Deal/

[Bluebear]

9. Oh, I know. Poor President Obama, all us DUers stopping his progressive agenda for change.

It's all our fault.

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

11. Deleted message

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[The Doctor.]

17. How, precisely are we doing that?

Or is this a strawman alert?

Hmmm... notable sarcasm, unrealistic presentation, irrelevant point.... STRAWMAN.


I know that it doesn't matter to some people that Obama is the most strident supporter of equal rights ever to sit in the White House, or that he represents the best possible chance in history of securing those rights. Nope... let's fight our allies tooth and nail for not ignoring reality and delivering the world yesterday. Vote 'em out of office so we can have a Palin/Beck administration in 2013... that'll really fix things.

[nofurylike]

27. well said, The Doctor. thank you, and know that some of us

appreciate those facts.


peace and solidarity

[walldude]

71. Seems like the people who "appreciate those facts"

all have their rights to join the military, to marry or to not be discriminated against, firmly in place. It's easy to not be gay and sit here and talk about how great Obama is for the gay community.

I have chosen to listen to the GLBT community when it comes to their rights. When the gay community feels like they have what they need then I will be posting OP's praising Obama's commitment to the gay community. Until then, until the people who's rights are being violated are satisfied, I will stand with the gay community and not with the people who are telling them once again to be patient.

[nofurylike]

93. you are listening to PART of the lgbtq... community - and not a

majority portion of our, my, community, either -

just the ones who have so fiercely dominated this small local community, using the very effective tactic of accusing people of homophobia should they dare to disagree. sadly, the ones most hurt by a charge of homophobia are the ones who care the most deeply about our well-being; the ones who have the conscience to care and examine whether they really ARE acting out of homophobia. our greatest allies.

most of them now successfully chased away.

[Name removed]

112. Deleted message

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[TexasObserver]

107. To me, it comes down to either supporting gay rights or not.

LBJ didn't pass the 1964 Civil Rights Act by saying "I'm gonna do it ... whenever the time is right and opposition isn't so strong, and the political situation is better."

I'm not gay, but I expect progressive Democrats to unabashedly support gay rights, without equivocation.

[laughingliberal]

137. +1000 nt

[joeybee12]

64. Apparently the Obama you know is in some alternate universe...nt

[The Doctor.]

118. Name one President that has done more for LGBT rights Than Obama.

S'ok, take your time.

[Lord Magus]

131. What president's done more for LBGT rights?

Certainly not Clinton, who gave us DADT in the first place. And he was the first president who even acknowledged that gay people might have rights at all.

[Bluebear]

75. Oooh President Palin, pulling out that old card again? Whatever,

[The Doctor.]

119. So you'll be voting for Obama in 2012 so he can continue to deliver on his equal rights promises...

That's good news.

[Hannah Bell]

28. we're so powerful!

[awoke_in_2003]

55. Like Tom Tomorrow said...

"incomprehensible power" :)

[TexasObserver]

54. The president could lead by acting forcefully to end DADT.

He could give a great speech and say "If I do nothing else this four years that endures, let me end discrimination in the military against gays."

[The Doctor.]

120. He did say that;

"DADT will end on my watch"

Problem is, you don't understand why he can't just paste it over with an executive order.

[laughingliberal]

139. Here's something he could paper over with an executive order:

November 10, 2010
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
CONTACT: [phone]; [e-mail]

NEW YORK – The American Civil Liberties Union and the ACLU of New Mexico filed a class action lawsuit today challenging the Defense Department's discriminatory policy of cutting in half the separation pay of service members who have been honorably discharged for being gay. The separation pay policy is not part of the "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" statute, and can be changed without congressional approval.

"By denying servicemen and women full separation pay, the military is needlessly compounding the discrimination perpetuated by 'Don't Ask, Don't Tell,'" said Joshua Block, staff attorney with the ACLU Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgender Project. "The Obama administration has repeatedly said the 'Don't Ask, Don't Tell' statute is wrong, but that it needs to work with Congress to repeal the law. But the separation pay issue is entirely within the administration's control. The administration can at least take a preliminary step toward backing up its rhetoric with action by addressing this issue promptly and protecting gay and lesbian service members from needless additional discrimination."

http://www.aclu.org/lgbt-rights/aclu-challenges-discrim...

Wonder what the problem with that is?

[The Doctor.]

140. It's simple; He should fix it.

Unlike others, however, I'll listen if there is a reasonable explanation of why it can't be done. Failing such an explanation, it would be a legitimate gripe against Obama.

I have plenty enough of those without having to scorn him for things he can't or otherwise shouldn't do.

[fascisthunter]

62. Bwahhhahahahaha... good one

[bobbolink]

70. Its because we are so damned POWERFUL, that we are frightening him to death.

:crazy:

Shame on all of us!

Shame!

I tells ya!

[Starbucks Anarchist]

106. Sorry, delete.

[TexasObserver]

12. Nonsense. Wake up and smell the discrimination.

The president has been weak on DADT for two years.

[nofurylike]

24. thank you for trying to reason, Tx4obama. just so you know,

some of us hear you, and appreciate what you're saying.


peace and solidarity

[Tx4obama]

80. Thank YOU for your comment. n/t

[Smashcut]

34. And yet I ask again: WILL HE VETO if the repeal language is stripped out?

Or is he just "opposing" in the abstract, the way he "supports" GLBT rights in general?

[TexasObserver]

53. What is embarrassing are the rationalizations that justify DADT's continuation.

[The Doctor.]

13. Two things;

1) As you have been undoubtedly made aware, the DoJ challenges court rulings on established law (yes, DADT was signed into law by Clinton) as a matter of protocol. If you, or anyone else wish to see Obama as having directed the DoJ to appeal the ruling, then you are welcome to that fantasy.

2) If any DUers have engaged in 'gay bashing', I should hope they were TS'd. If you can point to any who have so engaged and not been banned, then I'll be happy to help route them. For that, however, you'd need to be able to show actual instances of said 'bashing'.

Bonus;

Under Obama, the progress toward equal rights for GLBT individuals has seen more significant action by a President than under all other Presidents in US history COMBINED.

Obviously, while I believe that equal rights are long overdue, the mindset of instant gratification at the expense of progress is a very costly one. By all means, let's punish Obama for not 'Supermanning' the Earth's rotation and go ahead and get Palin/Beck for 2012. THAT'LL speed things right the hell up.
:eyes:

Now, if you can actually deal thoughtfully with these points, then perhaps we'll get somewhere.

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

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[Tx4obama]

16. Here's a link I think you might appreciate

List of Obama's GBLT accomplishments
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=433x485790

[The Doctor.]

22. Well... that only proves he's trying to compensate for his homophobia...

I mean, what other reason could there be for a President to go so far out of his way for the sake of equal rights?

He's only done more than every President ever... but he certainly hasn't done everything possible yet.

Right?


Sorry... I just get sick and tired of people bashing their greatest allies in history. Thanks though... I was actually surfing for that exact list not long ago. Oddly, it's not terribly prevalent in 'the google'. Hmmmm......

[Bluenorthwest]

49. You keep using the word 'equality' and Obama is opposed to

equal rights for all, he says so clearly and with regularity. Your use of a word that does not apply to the President's position taints your entire attempt to show some balance in his views.
The President has been clear that his religion demands that he oppose equal rights. Yet you claim that is his goal. He himself says otherwise.

[The Doctor.]

58. That's pretty delusional.

He's so opposed to equal rights he;

-Reversed an inexcusable US position by signing the UN Declaration on Sexual Orientation and Gender Identity

-Endorsed the Baldwin-Lieberman bill, The Domestic Partnership Benefits and Obligations Act of 2009, to provide full partnership benefits to federal employees

-Signed the Ryan White HIV/AIDS Treatment Extension Act

-Lifted the HIV Entry Ban effective January 2010

-Awarded the Presidential Medal of Freedom to Harvey Milk and Billie Jean King

-Appointed the first transgender DNC member in history

-Issued diplomatic passports, and provided other benefits, to the partners of same-sex foreign service employees

-Conceived a National Resource Center for Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgender Elders -- the nation's first ever -- funded by a three-year HHS grant to SAGE

-Testified in favor of ENDA, the first time any official of any administration has testified in the Senate on ENDA

-Signed the Matthew Shepard and James Byrd, Jr. Hate Crimes Prevention Act, which expanded existing United States federal hate crime law to include crimes motivated by a victim’s actual or perceived gender, sexual orientation, gender identity, or disability -- the first positive federal LGBT legislation in the nation's history

-Hired and appointed a record number of qualified LGBT Americans, including more than 10 Senate-confirmed appointments

-Sworn in Ambassador David Huebner

-Named open transgender appointees (the first President ever to do so)

-Banned job discrimination based on gender identity throughout the Federal government (the nation's largest employer)-

-Dispatched the Secretary of Defense and the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff to call on the Senate to repeal Don't Ask / Don't Tell, in the meantime dialing back on discharges

-Launched a website to gather public comment on first-ever federal LGBT housing discrimination study

-Appointed long-time equality champion Chai Feldblum one of the four Commissioners of the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission

-Eliminated the discriminatory Census Bureau policy that kept gay relationships from being counted, encouraging couples who consider themselves married to file that way, even if their state of residence does not yet permit legal marriage

-Produced U.S. Census Bureau PSAs featuring gay, lesbian, and transgender spokespersons.

-Instructed HHS to require any hospital receiving Medicare or Medicaid funds (virtually all hospitals) to allow LGBT visitation rights.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=433x485790


It looks as though my 'opinion' is reality-based.

[Bluenorthwest]

73. Sorry, but he is opposed to equal marriage rights and equal

means equal, not nearly equal, or better than the status quo. You claim he favors equal rights, and he simply does not.
In his own damn words:
"I do not support gay marriage. Marriage has religious and social connotations, and I consider marriage to be between a man and a woman." < from the Human Rights Campaign's 2008 Presidential questionnaire>

There are the words of Barack Obama. He does not support marriage equality. Equal rights mean equal rights. Look up what equal means, or do I have to do that for you too?

[The Doctor.]

85. Yet his actions prove otherwise.

Words, I know, are more important to you than outcomes.

Name a President who has done more for LGBT rights than Obama.

[Tx4obama]

90. Hang in there...

When President Obama gets DADT repealed hopefully the LGBT community will stop fighting with all of us out here that have been supporting the 'repeal' and The President's accomplishments :)

[pacalo]

122. +1. Good list provided, which should go a long way to reassure our GLBT friends.

They have a right to be angry, & I'm 100% behind them -- as I know you are -- in regard to equality.

I do have issues with the cut-one's-nose-off-to-spite-one's-face way of thinking. Does that solve the problem or make the solution even farther out of reach?

I've written letters to my congresspeople about the issue about how any form of discrimination goes against the fabric of our country, & when I see threads like this with negative attitudes toward those here who aren't GLBTers, it begs to be asked: what exactly is the reaction expected of us?

I've been turned off by the viciousness of some GLBT members in their responses to those who are trying to help & to those who are well meaning but need further understanding. That is another form of cutting one's nose off to spite one's face. We all need each other & want to help each other.

Sorry, but this has been bottled up in me for some time.

[Name removed]

44. Deleted message

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[Heidi]

18. How long have heterosexuals had the right to marry? THAT's how long gays have waited.

Hardly a case of wanting "instant gratification."

[The Doctor.]

21. I know, and it's FUCKING WRONG. Too long, too much suffering.

And now, with hope at our fingertips, every day is a new eternity. It's relative. For decades there was little option but to quietly weather the inequity and suffering. Now that there exists an atmosphere in which equal rights can be fully realized, we are going mad with the proximity. Believe me... I know personally what it is like.

Obama has done more for LGBT rights than all other Presidents combined... and in less than TWO YEARS. It is precisely this climate which makes it so difficult to accept that he has not already brought persecution to an end. But he can't. The President is not God, or a Genie, or a Wizard. Could he do better? I'm sure of it... but how?

We are looking at the end of LGBT discrimination before the next generation ascends. We could be looking at going from ss marriage being a nonesuch in the mid 90's to becoming a reality 20 years later.

Given the history, that is 'instant gratification'.

I'm sorry, I really am... but think of how long it took blacks in the US to win civil rights. We are still seeing racial discrimination to this day.

Equal rights are inexorable, and perhaps, because of that, the nearer the completion, the more excruciating the trip.

I hate that being a realist gets me labelled a 'homophobe' or worse, but I'll fight this battle from here in reality for the sake of my brothers and sisters because I too want rights secured, and the battle concluded, sooner than later.

And I'll always listen to constructive suggestions.

[TexasObserver]

42. That's your opinion, not fact.

If you want to find gay bashing here, look for it.

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

116. Deleted message

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[Tunkamerica]

23. please link to gay bashing on DU

I haven't seen it

[Name removed]

25. Deleted sub-thread

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[nofurylike]

29. thank you for trying, Tunkamerica. they can't. nt

[Behind the Aegis]

37. Do you even know what "gay bashing" is?

Do you think it is limited to hanging us on fence posts? Setting our bodies alight atop tires fires? Calling us "faggots, dykes, cocksuckers, queers, lesbos?" Or, have you resigned yourself to the logical fallacy of "because you haven't seen it isn't true/hasn't happened?"

[Tunkamerica]

129. actually a link would help no matter what you think i think.

[Behind the Aegis]

130. No. In order to provide "proof" it needs to be established what you think "gay bashing" is.

[Tunkamerica]

132. that would be true if I alleged any such thing.

I merely wanted an illustration of what someone else alleged. Now I have to define what they alleged before you or they can show me an example of what they allege.

It's times like this I wish I had taken a debate class in HS so I would know which argumentative fallacy this is.

edited for spelling

[Behind the Aegis]

135. You really could have used a class in logic.

"that would be true if I alleged any such thing."

Makes no sense.

"I merely wanted an illustration of what someone else alleged. Now I have to define what they alleged before you or they can show me an example of what they allege."

This is not what was required. This is nothing more than obfuscation. I didn't ask for you to define what the other poster "alleged," I asked for you to define what you believe is "anti-gay."

[Tunkamerica]

136. No, you didn't ask. You said I had to define gay bashing before a link could be provided.

I asked the original commenter, which I don't believe you are (though I could be wrong since the post was deleted), to provide some sort of indication of what they were talking about. I was generally interested, because I hadn't seen it.

I am not interested in your insults or intimations. I feel you're looking for a fight that I don't wish to have. Good luck finding someone to take your bait.

If you treat everyone as an opponent, you'll find it difficult to find allies.

[Behind the Aegis]

138. Avoidance.

I did ask.

Behind the Aegis (1000+ posts) Wed Nov-10-10 05:06 AM
Response to Reply #23
37. Do you even know what "gay bashing" is?
Do you think it is limited to hanging us on fence posts? Setting our bodies alight atop tires fires? Calling us "faggots, dykes, cocksuckers, queers, lesbos?" Or, have you resigned yourself to the logical fallacy of "because you haven't seen it isn't true/hasn't happened?" source post #37

You refuse to state what you think "gay bashing" is, despite my repeated requests for you to define your definition.

However, you have provided the answer to my original question (no, I was not the person to whom who posted) and that is: ""because you haven't seen it isn't true/hasn't happened?""

Thank you for your game playing and do look to a community college for a course in basic logic and perhaps you can revisit this thread and see how you were the one who did not employ very simple logic.

Edit:

"If you treat everyone as an opponent, you'll find it difficult to find allies."

Take that course in logic and see if you can identify the logical fallacy you just employed.

[jonnyblitz]

41. gay bashing posts get deleted usually. nt

[The Doctor.]

60. Can you give an example? I've never seen one before it gets deleted.

You see, if I were making the assertion that these posts existed, I'd C+P anything I found to a Word doc complete with time/date/poster, then I'd collect multiple examples from a given poster and see about getting that poster banned.

Thing is, I've never seen any... but I've seen plenty of other sorts of posts get deleted. How all these 'gay bashing' posts are escaping my notice is a very improbable coincidence. I'm not saying it's never happened, but I am very certain, as I've seen accusations of 'gay bashing' and 'Homophobe!' over post that I've made... posts which remain intact to this day for the lack of any such negative imposition, that much of what is 'claimed' to be 'homophobic' is not.

[Dappleganger]

68. Plenty of people see them.

I have seen them over the past two years. Just because you don't doesn't mean they don't exist, just that you aren't paying attention closely enough.

BTW, I am straight and find it appalling when those posts occur.

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[Dappleganger]

66. There have been countless posts over the past two years

telling the gays here to stop with their pet issues.

Fuck that--civil rights are not "pet issues!"

[Bluebear]

78. Thank you.

[muffin1]

110. And the ever popular

"ponies".

[superduperfarleft]

67. See my sig. n/t

[Ignis]

83. ^^^ And the response to those two examples is...

Jiminy.

[superduperfarleft]

84. Well, maybe he got the proof he was looking for and is currently re-examining his own prejudices

and sense of privilege.

I know, I know, I kill me. :rofl:

[Ignis]

Or furiously alerting, now that someone's taken the bait.

I'm still confused as to why this sort of baiting is allowed. :shrug: But Mongo only pawn in game of life.

[Change has come]

134. Are you gay?

[Tx4obama]

6. The Manchin story is ONLY a RUMOR. Read the truth on the link below

http://www.rollcall.com/news/-200356-1.html

[Rhythm]

114. His party is not the problem... his positions are

He's a self-serving bluedog. I don't trust him as far as i can spit a Studebaker.

[midnight]

7. This is a good interview....

[EmeraldCityGrl]

14. One of the more surprising (for me) stats from the

mid term exit polls was that 31% of those that identified themselves from the LGBT community
voted Rep.

I hope Dems are paying attention and understand they can no longer take this group for granted
because, that is exactly what is happening here. This is a civil rights issue and we are suppose to
be the party that defends everyones civil rights. I am just disgusted we are still "debating" this
in 2010.

[Starry Messenger]

19. k&r

[BzaDem]

26. Of course they go through the whole interview acting as if there is something Obama can do to coax

Republicans into defying their leadership to vote for the bill. As if Republicans are open to persuasion, and all it would take to win them over is... more persuasion.

Seriously.

This interview is one of the most misleading interviews I have seen on this issue yet.

[nofurylike]

30. that is what aravosis does. he makes his fame and fortune that

way.

meanwhile, when someone interferes with his personal agenda, such as transgenders expecting to have rights too, he says how they have to wait, it'll take time, "half a loaf is better than no loaf at all," and so on. of course, he gets the half loaf while they wait for any of the loaf at all.

he, an advocate of incremental change as long as it's the change he wants first, is a hero to many here, while obama dealing in the reality of incremental change is called all the trashy things the same aravosis disciples call him.

the right wing has been sucking in frustrated lgbtq...s this way for a good while now.

we're all frustrated with the struggle for our rights. some of us remember what it's like under repuke dominance, and fear for all of us at their mercy - well their lack thereof. and we appreciate the amazing amount of change we are seeing in this country, and through this administration, even though we, of course, want it all to happen immediately, too. we just know who really is to blame. and it's not this adminstration.

some of us are also actually out there working for those rights, every day, and we know what it takes to create real change.


peace and solidarity

[Radical Activist]

89. Cenk thinks Obama opposed the public option.

OK, we lost the public option because of the Senate. But saying that Obama "opposed" something that he introduced and spent months fighting for is an outright lie. I think I see where some of the more fantastic misconceptions on DU are coming from.

[bluetrain]

31. Sadly, as has above been noted, a large portion of the queer community already vote R and, frankly,

I don't believe there's enough leverage nor does the "gay vote" make up enough of the population to make much of an impact. That said, it'd be lovely if not just the queer segment of population, but all sane thinking people stopped voting against their best interests, which, at this date, means stopped voting for both R's and D's. Third party is the only way we're going to make any progress.

[Tunkamerica]

32. ah but which 3rd party?

[bluetrain]

35. The LEFT needs to organize a serious counterbalance to the R/D overwhelming of the scales of justice

[SoCalDem]

36. Are republican overlords better?..n/t

[Behind the Aegis]

38. Better than what? Broken promises?

There is something to be said for those who will call you a "faggot" to your face, as opposed to behind your back.

[SoCalDem]

39. There's little in life that's bitterer than a politician's promise..

They all promise more than they can deliver, even if they think they can :(

[madrchsod]

40. ".....smiling faces sometimes pretend to be your friend..."

[Bluenorthwest]

50. "One may smile, and smile, and be a villain."

Hamlet, Act 1, Scene 5. A play all about the importance of action.

[JoePhilly]

47. You mean like Jim Demint, who would prevent gays from being teachers?

Or some GOP members who would like to again make being gay illegal? Or make it illegal for gays to be foster parents, or adoptive parents, or even parents of their own biological children?

The GOP doesn't propose hate crime legislation, they oppose it.

The Dems should be doing more to delivery on this front, but to suggest that the only difference between the two is that the one is more honest by screaming "faggot" in your face, is simply false.

[SidDithers]

43. Unrec...nt

Sid

[theHandpuppet]

57. Now there's a surprise

:eyes:

[stray cat]

45. Much like voters voting in the GOP because they won't take the economy anymore

I guess people run to the GOP for answers when they are unhappy

[Bluenorthwest]

51. Oh, worry not, we are far more experienced at this than straights

have noticed, we have been in one long ongoing action since the '80s. No need to 'run' anywhere, you might notice that some AIDS activists have been loudly taking it right to Obama, who then tells them to 'run' to Republicans and tell them. Sorry, Mr President, the buck stops with you.
Lots of centrist type Democrats like to say 'well, where you going to go?' as if they could extort our hearts and minds by pointing at the GOP. Where we gunna go? Gunna stay right here, making all that noise the moderate straights have difficulty with.
I'll be voting Democratic, but as always, I'll be doing it will full expression and maybe enen some public actions. This is what we have always done, and we will not be stopping for Donnie McClurkin's fanclub to have a prayer meeting about it.
GLBT voters were 69% Democratic even according to the fake poll. In the top 5 demographic groups voting for our Party. Interesting fact- if Straight White Men voted Democratic in the numbers their Gay counterparts do, there would not be a Republican in any office anywhere. But the Straight, white men vote strongly and loyally Republican as a group, and nearly single handedly keep them propped up and winning. If I was a part of that group, I'd be working within my own community to change that fact, not whining about groups who are far more loyal to the Party, under far more extreme circumstances.

[LWolf]

46. Nor should they. nt

[TexasObserver]

52. Thanks for having the courage to post this.

[theHandpuppet]

56. I second that thanks

:thumbsup:

[Starry Messenger]

88. +100,000

[sarcasmo]

61. Kick back to the top. One and done for President move to the center.

[jonnyblitz]

63. k &R. nt

[Name removed]

65. Deleted message

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[Dappleganger]

69. Tell the President to act like candidate Obama then.

[Name removed]

72. Deleted message

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[Dappleganger]

81. I most certainly was a strong supporter...

You are more than welcome to read my posting history. I have nothing to hide. While I respect him and think the world of his wife and family, he has employed leadership which was virtually no different than the republicans in the areas of the economy, education and dealing with our wars. He promised to do and be an agent of change and I threw my hat in to that race, along with working to help get him elected.

My last straw was the support of massive firings of teachers and his support of NCLB/RTTT, charter schools using public money and Arne Duncan. I want the man to deliver what he promised to do.

[Name removed]

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[QC]

87. I can't believe it took so long. n/t

[walldude]

76. So Obama is perfect? Or is it that there are only certain days

when he should be criticized?
Really man, what is your plan? To sit here and read nothing but praises for President Obama? This isn't freeperville.

You think that a person who is not afforded the same rights as you are should just shut up until you speak for them? Judging from the amount of empathy you show for the GLBT community and their rights if they wait for you to stand up for them it will be another century before their rights are in place.

This isn't health care or the economy we are talking about, it's not some political issue to be debated. These are people's basic human rights. We're lucky they aren't screaming louder.

[MrScorpio]

91. I've never said that Obama is perfect... No one is perfect

However, it's Democrats bashing a Democratic president on a Democratic website that IS the perfect example of what our problem actually is.

It's the elephant in the corner that everyone is completely ignoring... Which is... That we, as Democrats, have done a piss poor job of making Democratic liberalism the default ideology in America.

We're very good at protecting safe districts, like most of the metropolitan and urbanized areas, but we've failed miserably in branching out beyond those enclaves to people who stand the most to gain from what we have to offer. We have refused to put up a good enough fight and have pretty much acceded the other places to the Republicans and named it "Red America".

Instead of co-opting America into our liberal ways, the polarization of America has co-opted US!

Democrats have also failed in establishing the meme that liberalism is the way to go. This goes way beyond basic human rights, it also goes to foreign policy, fiscal policy, the importance of the social contract, basic civics... You name it. People in this country are totally clueless about the correctness, importance and necessity of all of that stuff and how it relates to them in their daily lives. So, it's pretty short sighted to divorce all of these things from each other.

We have failed to make it clear that everyone has a right to full and equal rights, economic, social and otherwise, instead of just for a privileged few... Or to cease with an exclusion of some, based on clearly bigoted reasoning.

Establishing real economic equality and the benefits of living in the richest, most powerful country in the world goes hand in hand with the basic human rights that everyone is entitled to. Instead, we constantly compartmentalize based on our own narrow demographics, and what doesn't meet our keenest interests just gets a cursory bumper sticker and a wave of the flag.

Democrats. as a whole, have failed to teach and fight in every nook and cranny and do so without quarter... Instead, we preach to the choir, much like what's going on with all of these frustration laden anti-Obama threads.

What has this gotten us? Nothing more than ignorance and resentment against liberals from the Red areas, from people who are screaming at the tops of their lungs that Obama should keep his "Kenyan, Socialist, Commie, Nazi government hands off of their Medicare".

We've allowed craziness, hatred and inequality a firm foothold in America.

It's easy to blame the Republicans for being Republicans when they promote craziness, hatred and inequality as a valid and promotable ideology, firmly ensconced in our laws and in many an America's hearts and minds... Because that's what they're all about. But let's face facts, they've done the hard work to make that crap legit in this country. While we hunker down in our insular little worlds and just play amongst ourselves.

So yeah, blame Obama for everything that's happening. He's had two years to convert America into a liberal paradise all by his lonesome, and he's failed miserably. Let's face it, the man's problem is that he's not the leftist poster child that so many people hoped that he would be, changing America into the Euro-style social-democratic wonderland that we all know and wish for and that's just not good enough, now is it? He's only a guy who believes in saving the franchise, not transforming it into a liberal stronghold. He's unwilling and unable to reverse years and years of hatred, bigotry and unjust canon with a unilateral stroke of his Mont Blanc.

He's a human being who's expected to do all of this on his own, without the benefit of a wide spread grass roots wave of change throughout the land.

It's so much easier to draw upon unhappy voices, spreading frustration and resentment, like the ones that always seem to come from the source of the OP, than for all of us to actually get up off of our duffs and do some real work for a change.

... And frankly, it's quite tiresome.

[walldude]

95. So our problem is that Democrats are bashing Democrats

for acting like Republicans? And many of these people you are talking about are off their duffs doing something about it. Every day. While you are here bashing them. What they are looking for is a little support.

Once again you miss the point entirely. People are not blaming Obama for what he isn't doing or hasn't had the time to do, they are blaming him for the things he is doing that are counter productive to achieving equal rights.

I'm sorry, when I call out Obama it's not because I am impatient or because I do nothing but sit around all day and bitch. When I call him out it's because increasing troop levels in Afghanistan is stupid. It's because renewing the Patriot act is unconstitutional. It's because challenging the DADT ruling, in spite of the bullshit that was peddled here was nothing something he was bound to do by law. It's because printing 6 billion dollars in new money is not the way to stimulate the economy it's a sure fire fucking way to increase inflation.

You say that all this bitching is getting nothing done. Bullshit. It's appeasing the Democrats and their mistakes that are causing things not to get done. Maybe had all the liberal Democrats stood up for Gay rights, maybe if you and the people like you who come into these threads to defend Obama's stance on gay rights, which amounts to "I love you guys but I can't help you" had stood with the GLBT community instead of ignoring their plight, things might have gotten done.

Tiresome. Well I'm sorry all this whining and complaining about an issue so trivial as basic human rights is tiresome for you. It must be really difficult to have to hit that unrec button. I tell you what, when it's your turn, when it's your rights being violated, see how you feel when I call your complaining tiresome.

[MrScorpio]

98. First off, I haven't even touched the unrec button on this thread

And second, what the heck does "not gonna take this anymore.'" even mean?

It's clear that Aravosis can't stand Obama in the first place, so what else is new?

And still, they keep coming up with that "executive order" crap.... We're talking about a LAW that was passed by an act of Congress, NOT a Pentagon policy. So, it's a good thing for the President to disregard the Constitution now?

Besides, they hinted at the fact that Democratic senators are vulnerable to the very right wing ideology that I mentioned before, without even identifying it as the real problem. They're blind to it.

It's clear that they want a gay-centric radical in the White House, instead of changing mindset that withholding equal rights from LGBT people from the ground up is the way to drive a movement.

Top down doesn't always work.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

108. A website which did not oppose Obama on gay rights issues would not be progressive

Obama's record on gay rights is not merely "not that good", it's "actively bad" - the only major advance in gay rights in the past two years has been achieved by Republicans, and Obama is doing everything he can to overturn it.

There are many issues on which I think Obama is unjustly criticised, but gay rights is one on which I don't think progressives can in good conscience defend him.

[Tx4obama]

125. Please tell me what on the list below you consider bad

President Obama's LGBT Accomplishments

Reversed an inexcusable US position by signing the UN Declaration on Sexual Orientation and Gender Identity

Endorsed the Baldwin-Lieberman bill, The Domestic Partnership Benefits and Obligations Act of 2009, to provide full partnership benefits to federal employees

Signed the Ryan White HIV/AIDS Treatment Extension Act

Lifted the HIV Entry Ban effective January 2010

Awarded the Presidential Medal of Freedom to Harvey Milk and Billie Jean King

Appointed the first transgender DNC member in history

Issued diplomatic passports, and provided other benefits, to the partners of same-sex foreign service employees

Conceived a National Resource Center for Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgender Elders -- the nation's first ever -- funded by a three-year HHS grant to SAGE

Testified in favor of ENDA, the first time any official of any administration has testified in the Senate on ENDA

Signed the Matthew Shepard and James Byrd, Jr. Hate Crimes Prevention Act, which expanded existing United States federal hate crime law to include crimes motivated by a victim’s actual or perceived gender, sexual orientation, gender identity, or disability -- the first positive federal LGBT legislation in the nation's history

Hired and appointed a record number of qualified LGBT Americans, including more than 10 Senate-confirmed appointments

Sworn in Ambassador David Huebner

Named open transgender appointees (the first President ever to do so)

Banned job discrimination based on gender identity throughout the Federal government (the nation's largest employer)

Dispatched the Secretary of Defense and the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff to call on the Senate to repeal Don't Ask / Don't Tell, in the meantime dialing back on discharges

Launched a website to gather public comment on first-ever federal LGBT housing discrimination study

Appointed long-time equality champion Chai Feldblum one of the four Commissioners of the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission

Eliminated the discriminatory Census Bureau policy that kept gay relationships from being counted, encouraging couples who consider themselves married to file that way, even if their state of residence does not yet permit legal marriage

Produced U.S. Census Bureau PSAs featuring gay, lesbian, and transgender spokespersons.

Instructed HHS to require any hospital receiving Medicare or Medicaid funds (virtually all hospitals) to allow LGBT visitation rights.

--------------
No other president in American history has done more for the LGBT community than President Obama has!

[Bluebear]

126. AND HE LET US ROLL EASTER EGGS ON THE WHITE HOUSE LAWN!!!

PLease include that in The List!

[Donald Ian Rankin]

127. Ah, the "octopus" strategy.

Throw out a cloud of ink, and escape in the confusion. You've got a few small-to-medium achievements in there, but an awful lot that's just worthless.





The below achievements are, collectively, not worth a pitcher full of a warm bodily fluid of your choice. You have a mixture of purely symbolic stuff, stuff effecting only a tiny number of people, and stuff that hasn't actually happened or hasn't achieved anything.

Awarded the Presidential Medal of Freedom to Harvey Milk and Billie Jean King
Appointed the first transgender DNC member in history
Conceived a National Resource Center for Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgender Elders -- the nation's first ever -- funded by a three-year HHS grant to SAGE
Hired and appointed a record number of qualified LGBT Americans, including more than 10 Senate-confirmed appointments
Sworn in Ambassador David Huebner
Launched a website to gather public comment on first-ever federal LGBT housing discrimination study
Produced U.S. Census Bureau PSAs featuring gay, lesbian, and transgender spokespersons.
Eliminated the discriminatory Census Bureau policy that kept gay relationships from being counted, encouraging couples who consider themselves married to file that way, even if their state of residence does not yet permit legal marriage
Testified in favor of ENDA, the first time any official of any administration has testified in the Senate on ENDA
Reversed an inexcusable US position by signing the UN Declaration on Sexual Orientation and Gender Identity
Appointed long-time equality champion Chai Feldblum one of the four Commissioners of the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission
Endorsed the Baldwin-Lieberman bill, The Domestic Partnership Benefits and Obligations Act of 2009, to provide full partnership benefits to federal employees*
Signed the Ryan White HIV/AIDS Treatment Extension Act**
Named open transgender appointees (the first President ever to do so)



*This bill has not passed, you should make this clear if you ever repost this.
**This bill was passed under Cliton; it was renewed under Bush and again under Obama. You should make this clear if you ever repost this.




That you mention DADT repeal as an achievement of Obama is laughable and verging on the offensive - the Log Cabin Republicans got it overturned; Obama is trying to reinstate it with far more likelihood of success than he's "trying" to overturn it.

Dispatched the Secretary of Defense and the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff to call on the Senate to repeal Don't Ask / Don't Tell, in the meantime dialing back on discharges




Given your above record of claiming things that haven't actually happened as "achievements", I'm sceptical of this one - it's a non-trivial step if it's actually happened, but the word "instructed" makes me uncertain whether it actually has.

Instructed HHS to require any hospital receiving Medicare or Medicaid funds (virtually all hospitals) to allow LGBT visitation rights.




Which leaves you with at most three possible actual meaningful achievements. And even here there isn't all that much - certainly not enough to outweigh his valiant defence of DADT


Banned job discrimination based on gender identity throughout the Federal government (the nation's largest employer***

Issued diplomatic passports, and provided other benefits, to the partners of same-sex foreign service employees****

Signed the Matthew Shepard and James Byrd, Jr. Hate Crimes Prevention Act, which expanded existing United States federal hate crime law to include crimes motivated by a victim’s actual or perceived gender, sexual orientation, gender identity, or disability -- the first positive federal LGBT legislation in the nation's history*****

Lifted the HIV Entry Ban effective January 2010


***With the noteable exception of the army. And wasn't it already banned, anyhow?
****What other benefits?
*****It's far from clear that this actually makes anyone any safer.

[Tx4obama]

128. Original link...

The list was originally posted here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=433x485790

I apologize to 'the author of the OP on the link above' for omitting it from my comment above.

[Name removed]

121. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Occam Bandage]

79. Obama is alienating a significant voting bloc in order to block a move the public supports.

Not good policy, not good politics.

[JuniperLea]

86. How many votes do you figure?

This should be used.

[MrScorpio]

92. Somewhere around 25%, right?

The unhappy few.

[JuniperLea]

99. Are you saying that 25% of the population is gay?

Or 25% of the voting population?

I seriously have no idea what the ratio is... in my neighborhood, a very, very gay friendly neighborhood, I don't think it's that high... except on gay pride day during the parades and festivals... then we are all gay:)

[MrScorpio]

101. I'm saying that 75% of liberals are supporting the President

That leaves 25% of liberals as unhappy with him, I guess

[JuniperLea]

102. gotcha...

that sounds about right to me.

[Name removed]

94. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[theHandpuppet]

96. Try to make friends of the Democrats?

Gee, I thought we were already Democrats. Maybe it's time the Democratic Party took a stand for us, or take responsibility for the Republicans.

[treestar]

100. I was assuming the Democrats are not good enough?

How does bashing the rest of the Democrats help?

If the Democratic party is not good enough, and you've had it and aren't going to take it anymore, then I suppose there's a third party out there that can win and will immediately put repeal of DADT first?

[theHandpuppet]

105. I think there's this little thing called accountability

Some or many in the GLBT community are calling out the Democratic "leadership" for what is perceived as abandonment and betrayal by the party which has always taken their support for granted. I say it's about damned time. Stand and DELIVER!

The old "you'd better love us because no one else will" is the mantra that's getting old around here.

[jeff47]

111. Well...

"then I suppose there's a third party out there that can win and will immediately put repeal of DADT first?"

Apparently there is, since the Democrats seem to be heading towards "never".

[superduperfarleft]

97. One more of you and we'll have a trifecta. n/t

[VMI Dem]

104. Rec.

[Smarmie Doofus]

109. And another rec. n/t

[H2O Man]

113. Recommended.

Those in office are betraying people on this. There is no justification, no excuse.

[amborin]

117. K&R

[foxfeet]

123. K&R nt

[defendandprotect]

124. K&R ---

[defendandprotect]

133. 20 years of this insanity .... what has it cost America ....????